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Around SBN: Tiger Woods, Tony Romo Grouped Together At Pebble Beach

Game 25 Open Thread: May 1, 2007

looper

sheets

3-1, 1.91

1-2, 4.50

the cards face another tough assignment in ben sheets, who left his last start with a groin problem. since throwing a 2-hit complete game on opening day, sheets has yielded a .322 average to opposing hitters, and he's not striking guys out at his accustomed rate --- just 3.9 men per 9 innings so far in 2007, vs a career avg of 7.7 batters per 9.

that said, sheets is hardly a creampuff opponent. a week ago, you may recall, i noted that the cards have faced unusually difficult starters so far this year. here are the final tallies for the starting pitchers the cardinals faced in april:

W-L ERA WHIP OPP
AVG
BB/9 HR/9
vs other nl teams 28-24 3.63 1.30 .249 3.2 0.78
vs cards 13-8 2.66 1.06 .226 2.1 0.72
nl avg 12-12 4.26 1.39 .263 3.3 0.91

the cards' average opponent has held other nl teams --- again, this is not counting their stats against the cards --- two-thirds of a run below the league norm, and has allowed a batting avg 14 points lower than the norm. to repeat my disclaimer from last week, i'm not arguing that tough pitching alone explains the cards' anemic start with the bats --- but i do think it's a factor. these good pitchers were even tougher on the cardinals than on other nl teams, mainly because the cardinals don't draw any walks. consider their performance against carlos zambrano, in their last game before josh hancock died. Z had walked 19 men in 27.1 innings vs other nl opponents; against the cardinals, he walked nobody in 7 innings.

skip schumaker leads off tonight; after opening the season with 4 hits in 27 at-bats, he's gone 6 for his last 9 with a double. eckstein drops to 8th, first time he has batted in a non-leadoff position since joining the cardinals; he is 7 for his last 42.

i like the shakeup; what the hell, it can't hurt.

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Agree.
The lineup change works for me.  The status quo obviously isn't getting the job done.  
DFA Juan Encarnacion and Preston Wilson!

by STLCardinalsFan on May 1, 2007 7:30 PM EDT reply actions  

absolutely agree...
I think the line-up change is a great idea....this team needs something to wake them up and get their minds back on the game a bit...perhaps this will help in that.

by Timbo02 on May 1, 2007 7:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I get the feeling the Cards are going to score
early and often in this game.  I don't know why, I don't know how, but I've got that sort of feeling.

Probably gas.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 7:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope you are right
wasn't Josh suspossed to start tonight in a bullpen game? I look for LOOP to be inspired and do very very well tonight.
The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 1, 2007 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

This Team
Really worked for two years (some even 3) to win the World Series and I think they are a little burned right now. Give it a month, Mulder returning soon, Encarnacion riding to the rescue, we'll be in good shape.
A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on May 1, 2007 7:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post, LB
I love to be talking baseball again!  Awesome!

And I'm glad to see Skip hitting leadoff and Eck in the 8 hole.  Ever since Edmonds told him to relax, settle down and just play ball, he's done a lot better job at the plate.  Moving to the 8 hole might really help Eckstein.  Since he's hitting in front of the pitcher, he's liable to see pitches to hit and will probably be more patient at the plate, too.  It can't hurt.

Once again, though, we're counting on Looper.  It's a little scary -- who thought we'd be doing that on May 1?  But it sure is good to be talking baseball again.  Thanks, LB.

by chuckb on May 1, 2007 7:51 PM EDT reply actions  

seems like evybody's had enough
of the other talk . . . . what the heck, maybe they'll win a couple and give us all something else to think about.

by lboros on May 1, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah
I'm in the mood for our disney-movie-inspiring-season to begin.

But then again, those movies usually aren't that good, so let's just say I'm in the mood for an inspirational season to begin.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont know
WOuldnt hitting in front of the pitcher give you the least ammount of protection?

by jealousblues on May 1, 2007 7:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Protection is overrated (if it exists)
But Pip at Fungoes recently lost a bet as to whether NL 8-hitters out-walk lead-off AL hitters.

Presumably, he'll get some pitches to hit batting in front of the pitcher or he'll get pitched carefully to with 2 outs.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

A week of build up
If everything goes well, the Cardinals will have both Chris Carpenter and Juan Encarnacion returning to action this time next week or alittle after that.

They've got
2 - Brewers
3 - Astros
3 - Colorado (one of which Carp may pitch)

Ideally for the Cards, 7-1 would be gravy.  I doubt it's going to happen, but 5-3 is doable.  That would put the Cards at 15-17, full staffed once again heading to the West Coast for San Diego and LA.

So, this is an important week for the Cardinals to make some hay against NL Central teams before they get their ace and their 'starting' RF back.  

Getting rolling and adding those guys back to the roster (whatever Juan is worth) would be a huge step towards getting this season on track.

This month, the Cards have 7 games against the 10-16 Rockies, 3 games against the 9-17 Nationals and 3 against the 10-14 Astros.  These are games the Cardinals have to win.  They can't lose to struggling teams if they hope to get back into the race.

I know the team is going through a lot right now, but it is still good to look ahead and see what they CAN do in the month of May.

If everything breaks the way it SHOULD, the Cardinals could play their way back into contention this month.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 7:59 PM EDT reply actions  

according to Gordo's chat today...
... Enc is really scuffling in his rehab assignment. if he doesn't start playing well, he might not have a guaranteed spot on the team.

Ludwick and Ankiel are both turning heads, and either might get a call-up. doesn't seem like the right time to toss Ankiel into the fire, but i wouldn't mind seeing Ludwick get some ABs.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 8:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Joe Strauss, though
He said, "something will be decided on Encarnacion within the week."

I assume that means that if he doesn't start raking AA pitching by the time Springfield hits the road, he'll stay on the DL and return to Jupiter to hang out with the XST kids.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

corrected...
... Strauss, not Gordo.

i don't know what that means, tho. Enc can't have any options, so isn't there a limit on the duration of a rehab assignment? at the end of it, i believe they either have to activate him or DFA him. i can't imagine them DFAing him, especially when everyone else is playing so poorly.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I mean is...
Encarnacion will have a "setback" in his rehab and his rehab will be interrupted so he can go back on the DL.

Rehab assignments are limited to 20 days, though. I don't think anyone would complain. It's not like teams are clamoring to get their hands on Encarnacion or counting the days until Skip is removed from the Cardinals roster.

Encarnacion might not be happy about it, but he's had a rough offseason, what with the surgery and time-travel.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Has anyone noticed...
that Juan looks strangly darker this year?
Whats that all about

by jealousblues on May 1, 2007 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't return him to the DL?
I don't know the answer but it would seem like the way to go.  A healthy "average right fielder" doesn't hit .077 in AA.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

can they?
i imagine at some point they'll have to either move him from the 15-day to the 60-day DL, DFA him, or else activate him. but if he's on the DL, i don't think he can play in the minor leagues. which means, he won't be able to get into game shape.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wade Miller
It's just like Wade Miller going on the DL with "Back Spasms" when it was probably more a case of him needing to go to Mesa to work on mechanics with a personal trainer for a while.

Encarnacion won't be on a team, but can be in Jupiter working on his swing in the cage and with the guys in extended spring training who haven't yet been assigned to a team.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, okay...
... that makes sense.

but he doesn't do us any good in Jupiter, or in AA, or anywhere else. that's the biggest concern. anybody who was counting on Enc to provide an offensive lift to this team in the near future is probably mistaken.

we're just going to have to manage with what we've got, barring a call-up for Ludwick or Ankiel.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

True
But he does us less good making outs in the lineup, like he's doing for Springfield.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ben Sheets
He's bringing some serious heat today. I look forward to one of those high, hard ones getting turned into a souvenir.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Thought Pujols did that
but was actually ahead of a 97 mph fastball.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lilly finally getting smacked around a little...
... 5-2 Buccos, bottom 5th. Soriano hit his first homer to lead off the game.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

wow
mlb.tv had a horrible camera angle on that Kennedy fly out.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 8:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Fox Sports MW
I couldn't tell if that was a homer, foul, fair, been caught.

You don't think of Kevin Mench when you think of fleet-footed outfielders, but he made a nice play on that one.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eck
Think he's gonna hit with anger tonight?
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 8:32 PM EDT reply actions  

or
I'll take walking with anger.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

He just needs to get on base
Regardless of the emotion.
RIP: Jack Buck, DK57 & JH32

by gibbons on May 1, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heres a line-up "shakeup" for you
Bat Looper lead-off
RIP: Jack Buck, DK57 & JH32

by gibbons on May 1, 2007 8:35 PM EDT reply actions  

How is he going to drive runs in
if he is batting leadoff?  We need to put him in a damage causing spot, which of course is 2 spots after our high OBP 7th hitting catcher.

What a strange trip this season is.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

well somebody needs to get on base
at the top besides Duncan. here's my lineup:
  1. Looper
  2. Edmonds
  3. Pujols
  4. Rolen
  5. Duncan
  6. Schumaker/Spiezio/another platooner
  7. Molina
  8. Kennedy
  9. Eckstein (to get it back to the top)
RIP: Jack Buck, DK57 & JH32

by gibbons on May 1, 2007 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

cardinal pitchers need
risp to hit, though. just the opposite of the rest of the cardinal lineup.

by johnstonburg on May 1, 2007 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice One
Braden Looper helps out his cause. Cardinals take their first lead since early last Friday night.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Good to get out of that inning
Adam Kennedy saved a run or two in that one.

by liam on May 1, 2007 8:45 PM EDT reply actions  

WHOA
that was really really deep.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 8:47 PM EDT reply actions  

is pujols
taking a really big lead, or has sheets just lost his confidence?

by johnstonburg on May 1, 2007 8:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Sheets has lost his damn mind
he did the same thing to Duncan earlier in the game.

Also, it seemed like he didn't come set on the last pitch to Edmonds and Edmonds turned and said something to the ump when he was leaving.

Is the site running really slow for anyone else?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

The ad servers are stalling
It's taking a long time for the ads in the middle of the page to load.

I just installed the adblock add-on for Firefox. It's loading fast as usual now.

by liam on May 1, 2007 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

off topic
what is this adblock add on?

by johnstonburg on May 1, 2007 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

A filter
It'll filter content from a website. You set it to subscribe to a feed of known advertisement scripts and your browser just won't load them.

I don't think it proper to post a direct link from here (an advertising funded website), but if you google adblock and firefox, you'll find it easily enough.

by liam on May 1, 2007 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

how long
til edmonds gets bumped down too?
now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 1, 2007 8:55 PM EDT reply actions  

I think FSN Wisconsin is up to something
when J.J. Hardy hit that double in the first, it sounded like the Brewers had just won the World Series.  As if 60,000 stood in chorus and cheered their hearts out.  

After looking at various 'wide' shots, there is no one at this game.  I think they are boosting the crowd volume (a good 'ole TV trick) to make it appear that there are more people there than there really is.

I could be wrong, though.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:03 PM EDT reply actions  

is it too early
to say that cy loop will be starting the all star game?

by johnstonburg on May 1, 2007 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not buying a #41 jersey yet
but you can't deny that he's been spectacular so far. I fully expect this phenominal run to poop out in june or so, but so far he's been great.

Tonight for example: He's been giving up a fair share of hits--not exactly the LaDunc formula for success--but he's also getting a lot of Ks and keeping balls in the park and toughing out innings. This is no small feat for someone in his position.

by effin fisk on May 1, 2007 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

6 Hits
#1 - Linedrive (more experience LF probably makes it, but a solid hit nonetheless)
#2 - Hard hit linedrive in between 1st and 2nd
#3 - Dribbler up the middle, Eck shaded towards 3rd
#4 - Groundball up the middle
#5 - Hard hit single to LF
#6 - Hard hit linedrive in between 1st and 2nd

He's been getting hit alittle harder this last inning or so, but he is still keeping everything down and in the yard.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Something I've learned this year
I will never, ever question a personnel decision Dave Duncan ever insists on.

He could demand that the Cardinals take Katie Brownell with their first pick in the 2012 draft and I wouldn't have any doubt.

by liam on May 1, 2007 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looper
Braden Looper struck out the side in the first inning.

That's the first time that he's struck out the side since the 8th inning of a game August 31, 2006 against the Marlins.

In that inning, he also walked two and gave up two singles and a run scored.

by liam on May 1, 2007 9:05 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree about FSN Wisconsin
This game is really tedious to watch via MLBtv. The game is choppy (but isn't it always), the announcers made only the slightest mention of the Duncan HR. Yes, the crowd is going nuts for how few people there are actually in attendance. Maybe I have finally hit that moment where I need to start thinking about the Brewers spot in the Central and I am starting to actually dislike them.

by birdsonthehat on May 1, 2007 9:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Where would we be without Looper in the rotation?
Did anyone suggest even a remote possibility that he would be the clear ace of the staff through April? I think most of us, myself included, considered him the most likely candidate for an early-season implosion, and here he is one of the best starters in the NL so far.

by BTown Birds fan on May 1, 2007 9:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Umpire must be in a hurry
that strikezone was ridiculous.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:09 PM EDT reply actions  

looper
(rightfully) wanted to argue, then decided against it ;)  Hope he throws 4 or 5 pitches right there this inning.

As long as he gets it called for him as well as against him...

Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looper
He has one year left on his deal right? Can you imagine how much money he will get when he hits the market. Looper and Santana both as free agents in the same year, there will really be some money thrown around.

by birdsonthehat on May 1, 2007 9:10 PM EDT reply actions  

knowing walt
he'll try and get a contract extension
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looper makes $5.5 mil
in 2008 with the Cards.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

amazing
even mentioning looper and santana in the same sentence. i can only hope

by johnstonburg on May 1, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously?
comparing looper to santana already?

getting a little ahead of yourself I think . . .

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kennedy got a little too cute on that one
Ha.  Eck was probably like "Oh shiiiizzI got it"

Apparently Kennedy is unaware of Eck's arm strength.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Just got back from dinner
Nice...Looper is our ace until Carp gets back
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

nice AB by schu there
swung at a bunch of balls, but he made sheets work...
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 9:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Pujols is going to throw down with the HP ump
before the night is over.  He's made that ridiculous inside pitch call now 4 times to APu and after Albert drilled that one past the SS (same pitch) he looked back at the ump after he knew it was a basehit.

In his 2nd AB, he was dropping F-Bombs or what appeared to be F-Bombs as he went to first and kept looking back towards homeplate.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks Bill Hall
needed that.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Brewers fan sign
"J.J. you make me Hardy"

FSN Wisconsin took about 10 seconds to figure it out.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Pujols AVG
A respectable .263

It will slowly make it's way to .300 but we need to work on getting those 100 runs and 100 RBI as well

Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:28 PM EDT reply actions  

The scoreboard at Miller Park
said .284, I thought.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which isn't right
but I'm just saying.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

meanwhile in memphis
ludwick's 14 game hitting streak and edgar V gonzalez's 13 game hitting streak both came to an end...

now that they got that over with, let's get one of 'em up here!

Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 9:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Should be 3 errors this inning
Edmonds for being lazy
Someone for not covering 2nd
Kennedy for throwing it away

Bare down Looper.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow
Pujols should have made that grab
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Exactly my point
all 18,000 come to their feet and shake the upper half of the state?
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol
our team might be mailing it in these days, but at least we have lots of fans at the games, yelling really loudly and doing the wave.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

wheels are falling off
come on blooper
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Brewers are swinging (and hitting)
everything he threw up there.  That's a confident team to just swing at everything being thrown.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

i blame myself
i was at dinner and we were winning
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Edmonds owes Looper
better make up for it at the plate next inning.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

crowd noise
i don't know, it would be hard to be all excited about kicking the crap out of a down team. I don't know, could I hoop and holler at a time like this? maybe i'm being overly sensitive.

by erik on May 1, 2007 9:39 PM EDT reply actions  

i hear ya
i struggled to watch the game last night
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

really i don't know what to
make of it. i understand being excited about your team hitting..but it's sorta coming across like..ha!! your teammate died and now we're slapping you upside your head!...again, maybe i'm just being overly sensitive. maybe they should be cheering like mad. just seems sorta...blech

by erik on May 1, 2007 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wans't really with you
but the announcers are starting to piss me off.

the crowd is, well, crowds are stupid, milwaukee, st. louis, everywhere. but the announcers, particularly on that jenkins home run, are getting a bit over the top, imo.

by sjoshi on May 1, 2007 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

although
I'm not exactly sure what they should talk about, or how they should react. I think I'm just being overly sensitive.

by sjoshi on May 1, 2007 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

We were
just cheering.....

by iluvlamp on May 1, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

thompson warming up
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Good job of keeping it at 2
Looper.  This offense score 2 in the first half of the game, hopefully they can do it again in the 2nd half.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:41 PM EDT reply actions  

finally
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Jimmy just missed that pitch
first time i've seen an old school edmonds-esque swing in quite a while.

aaaaand of course he strikes out on the next pitch.

by effin fisk on May 1, 2007 9:45 PM EDT reply actions  

i was hoping
to see another bill hall interview tonight.  the first two just didn't do it for me.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions  

This team isn't going to give Ben Sheets
a win, are they?

Could we please get some extra base hits?  The knickle and diming stuff is nice, but how about splicing together a couple doubles and a single in an inning every once in awhile?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice play, Eck
Yikes.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Why is it...
that I'm more disappointed in this loss than upset? We look terrible and this would have upset me last week. Now, it's just feels kind of empty. I know a part of it is the loss of Hancock but I think these guys are just wearing me down. It's apparent we aren't very good and it's just hard to watch. I'm a cardinals fan so I'll keep watching to support these guys but I'm not expecting much anymore.

by Brownale on May 1, 2007 9:56 PM EDT reply actions  

i'm just mad
that they teased me.  5 shutout innings made me think that things were going to turn around, and then this crap happens.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah!
Whatever happened to just ONE devestating half-inning per game?

by liam on May 1, 2007 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well
some of it was said last year but we had a great April last year and I knew our struggles wouldn't last forever.

This season have we won more than two games in a row? We've only won a two or three games by a safe margin. It's just been a tough season.

by Brownale on May 1, 2007 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

uh oh
i have him on my fantasy team...but i also have blooper
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 9:56 PM EDT reply actions  

heh
I was just about to say that the one plus I'm getting out of this game is that I have Sheets on my fantasy team.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

i have hardy on yahoo
and estrada on sporting news
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

This one's over
no way the a)hold the Brewers to 7 runs at this point or b)score 8 of their own.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 9:58 PM EDT reply actions  

These Brewers announcers are ruthless...
For a team who is clearly leading the division, you would think they would have a little compassion for a grieving team. These guys sound like they are in the playoffs.

Is it really that exciting? Maybe I am just very sensitive right now, but you don't kick a guy when hes down.

by El Hombre on May 1, 2007 10:01 PM EDT reply actions  

they're just inexperienced
come july 1st when the cubs are in first and the astros are in second, they'll look back at tonight and laugh.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

if that happen
i'll be crying.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

These Brewers
They're really smacking the ball hard these few innings.

We've got Eckstein-Miles-Skip-Dunc-Pujols up next inning. The seventh looks like a great chance for a big inning.

by liam on May 1, 2007 10:01 PM EDT reply actions  

wow
great relief and why did TLR go lefty vs righty?
now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 1, 2007 10:01 PM EDT reply actions  

JJ Hardy
Hasn't hit lefties well this season.

by liam on May 1, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm kind of sick...
... of seeing 7-1 and 7-2 ballgames.

by kindred on May 1, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions  

oops, spoke too soon
man, these Brewers score runs FAST.

How many games (or weeks) would it take for the Cards to score 11 runs? Hard to fathom.

by Urban Pawnee on May 1, 2007 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm kind of sick
of seeing frigging 7 run innings.  Unbelievable.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

um
Jim, is that actually you out there?
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions  

please explain
how are we losing to a pitcher that we OWN and DOMINATE
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions  

oh crap
words cannot explain how i feel right now
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 10:09 PM EDT reply actions  

looking the other side for a moment...
Yankees' Hughes has a no no going after 6
From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on May 1, 2007 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Jinx?
He just left the game, with an apparent ankle or hamstring injury.

by El Hombre on May 1, 2007 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

never thought i'd be so happy
to see some kid play pac-man poorly.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I know, right?!
Whoever played that pacman game made very poor decisions - it's been bothering me all season. I still prefer it to the bouncing ball and Tom Petty, however.

by six on May 1, 2007 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is the deal
with that stupid pac man game? I liked the pong from the first few weeks. Pac Man is just friggin' frustrating.

by sjoshi on May 1, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha
doesn't it make you just tremble with excitement to see what's next?

Space Invaders? Frogger? Dare I suggest Q-bert?

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on May 1, 2007 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

what's sad...
this is about the time we bring Josh in for relief
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

standing O for that?
i know the brew crew hasn't won in like 30 years. but to give them a standing O after what just happend to the Cards is without question a very classless act.
The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 1, 2007 10:12 PM EDT reply actions  

bull
Just because we feel sorry for ourselves doesn't mean everyone else is obliged to.  It's the brewers job to come out and play baseball, and kick our butts if they can, and it's the fans job to cheer for their team.  They don't owe us anything.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 1, 2007 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those poor Brewer fans have been down so long ...
it looks like up.

Let em have their fun. We've certainly had ours.

by Urban Pawnee on May 1, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

it has nothing to do with feeling sorry
for ourselves. I'm with erik on this one. yeah the brewers are kicking our butts. but the fans and the men in the booth dont have to rub it in. i dont care how long it's been since they've won. you just dont show up a team that has more important things to worry about than a baseball game.
The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 1, 2007 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please tell me
what you want Brewer fans to do? I know it's hard. Believe me. But you are acting like the Brewers should just roll over and quit. That's not baseball. If you think us Brewer fans are assholes I'm sorry. But we haven't been. The brewers are just playing baseball and aren't rubbing anything in. It's just a game. The loss of Josh has no bearing on this game. We all feel for his family.!! And you!

by iluvlamp on May 2, 2007 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with SleepyCA here
The 2007 Brewers are a team worth cheering for.

No reason for fans of the team to feel bad about enjoying a win.

I wasn't listening to the Brewers FSN broadcasters, but you can't blame a stadium of fans for having fun when their team is doing well.

by liam on May 2, 2007 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

True.
It's like beating the champ when he's old and tired.

I guess BP knew something when they said that the Cards would finish last in baseball in Runs Scored.

by Harknights on May 1, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about just "last in baseball"?
We may not have the worst record, but we've probably played the most 'meaningless innings' in the baseball.

How many innings this season have the Cardinals been down 5 runs or more?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is
a ridiculous statement.  What do you expect the fans to do?  Maybe they should golf clap until the team feels better. The other team is going to try to win and the fans are going to cheer.  I don't think Cardinals would act any differently if Milwaukee lost someone and they came to our stadium.

by rw on May 2, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want Soup back
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 1, 2007 10:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Could we please
swing at more balls low and away?

Really I think we've let a couple get by us and we have got to be better at swinging at those.

by Harknights on May 1, 2007 10:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Yikes this is ugly
and understandably so.  Let's get out of here tomorrow, pay respects to Josh & his family on Thursday, and get back home Friday.  Tough to be on the road facing circumstances like this.

by wildman on May 1, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions  

this really sucks to say....
but outside any help, and I'm the most positive guy in Cardinal Nation, (I always thought, anyway)

WE SUCK this year...I can't remember outside of the 2nd 1/2 of 2003 with that GOD_AWFUL pitching and bullpen...at least we were hitting our way out of losses...a Cards team I feel like giving up on this early in the year.  Rolen, sucks...Jimmy, sucks (tho could rebound, but we can't wait with the other holes)  Albert, can't carry the whole load...Duncan, if not moved to the 4 hole is wasted in his current spot...There's only SO MUCH you can get when we had Career years out of most of the core in 2004, added enough with Walker to slide in 2005 and luckily get healthy AND hot at the end of 2006.  I guess we've had our run, but I'm kinda glad Eck was not re-signed and we need to look for more from our minors this year.  Ludwig(?) is hot now, as is Ankiel (who I think with his arm is a good defensive option as well as long as his power is not equated with the fastball count mistakes that happen more in AAA then in the next level)

I'm pretty depressed with our effort thus far and really can't help but think that because of AP's early strugles this year, if it were last year when he carried us for 6 weeks, we'd be about the same.  I'm about inclined, at this point to upgrade our offense at first glance, with the promotion of Dunc down in the lineup, and maybe some other drastic scenario's (including a trade of a potential HOF defensive infielder for enough other puzzle pieces, NOT ALBERT, BTW) We are paying TOO MUCH $$$ to SUCK THIS BAD ON OFFENSE!!!

Sorry, am pretty pzzd by our team this year...we have had a pretty good run and it sux to get back to this level...but it DOES happen

Unless you use local guides, you cannot get the advantages of the land. <Master Sun> The Art of War

by MaskedMan on May 1, 2007 10:31 PM EDT reply actions  

if you are refering
to trading rolen, who would take him? Hes still good at 3b but his bat is slipping. It's just may, but i too wonder about this team.Jimmy is old and it shows, Juan may not recover,the pitching is always one inning away from collapse it seems(if they make it out of the first)It could be a long year, but at this point Thursday is the most important day for this team.

Lots of people die daily, but in our professions we may get 1-3 days off for a tragic loss. In theirs they got one, and then were forced onto national tv monday night. I feel bad for the team and hope that they can get through that first and foremost.

now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 1, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

For what's it worth...
Juan has looked HORRIBLE down here in Springfield.  I can't think of 1 hard hit ball.

He was at the Springfield Brewing Company for lunch few days ago when I was there with a buddy.  Juan had a salad, steak, and 2 HUGE baked potatoes.  Just found that funny.  Was a lot of food.  

Anyway...this team does look old.  But I can't give up on them.

Although I can't watch Edmonds at bat anymore, it's pathetic right now.

by Pujols for MVP on May 1, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

My sister
was at ICON nightclub (here in springfield) and saw him there. My sister just enjoyed the novelty of seeing him, but a girl she was with went up and pushed the girl Juan was dancing with out of the way and started dancing with him. After a few minutes she tried to kiss him, but he politely refused, saying he was married , and walked off.

If he's not going to get any hits off a double-A pitcher, at least he can stay faithful to his wife.

by effin fisk on May 2, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Duncan at cleanup?
How about setting our main lineup as follows:

#2 Edmonds
#3 Pujols
#4 Duncan
#5 Rolen

Potential advantages would include:

  • Move Edmonds into a slot where his higher OBP/presently low SLG profile would fit
  • Might get Jimmy more good pitches to hit in front of Albert and help get him going
  • Duncan should get a lot of pitches to hit centered between Albert and Scotty
  • L-R-L-R in the center of the lineup
  • We might never see Wilson in the #2 slot again
Until things stabilize and start looking up it's worth giving it a shot in my mind.  I'd love to see Duncan hit more homers with guys on base which would presumably happen at cleanup vs. #2.

by wildman on May 1, 2007 10:38 PM EDT reply actions  

It's not so much that
we are so bad.  It's the way we are bad.  We are an aging team, and I only am excited about 3 positions on the team: 1B, C, and LF.  Those are the only solid positions we have that aren't on the back end of their career.  Our starting pitching is a patchwork, to put it nicely.  Our bullpen at least is young and talented, but since Josh was a bullpenner, I think it hits them the hardest and it will take them longer to get over it.  It would be one thing if we had a young, talented team, that just wasn't quite good enough for MLB yet, but could be.  Right now it seems like we're a bunch of geezers out there.

Sorry for ranting.  Just a little bummed about the club right now.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on May 1, 2007 10:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice phantom DP in the 9th
neither Taguchi nor Molina were out on that play.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 10:55 PM EDT reply actions  

And, we would have just scored 2 run
with 2 on and no outs.

Thanks Umps!

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Way to move the runners over, Skip
for Duncan and Pujo....oh wait, nevermind.

Game over.

Not that it really mattered, but that was pretty silly to call that DP.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 1, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

im even tired of Yadi to be honest...
but I think much of that frustration comes from no one else being able to hit.
If everyone else was hitting he would be so much easier to take.
But he is cheap and seems to play D well. I dont know I always thought he handled pitchers well.
I dont know about this year but im certain thats just the pitching.

But right now he cant hit and he is so slow its pathetic.
I love the D though, and when the hitting comes back for everyone else I will love him again.

Next year I wouldnt mind seeing Kennedy, Eck, Jimmy and Juan (as I type this Eck gets a hit)
all gone next year.

I really like Eck but I just dont think it would be smart to sign him again.  Hell I have his shirt but I think we got what we are going to get out of him.

Kennedy we are kind of stuck with and maybe he can compete with better hitters around him.
I dont think he is a very good hitter, and I dont think he is fast or a very good baserunner.

Jim Edmonds- one of my favorite Cards.  He looks like he doesnt have anything at all.
I cant stand to see him like he is after all those years leading this club.  Im glad he still has a role on this team but he is almost a detrement at this point.  I like him being here, but I wish management would stop thinking of him as the core or as a guy who is going "come back' and contribute like he has in the past.  I just never see that happening and the sooner they get over that the better off we will be.

Juan is Tino.  He isnt a bad guy and at the end of the year you look and he did put up decent numbers but durring the year he seems like a hole.

Now obviously we cant turn over 4 positions but if any of these guys were gone it wouldnt hurt my feelings.

blah, end my crazy rant.  Dont take this too seriously

by jealousblues on May 1, 2007 11:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Eldred
espn says that he has been called in as an assistant for counseling..I think thats real cool this guy has hung around the last 2 yrs to help the pen pitch, and grieve
now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 1, 2007 11:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah
Cal was there last night I think hanging out in the pen.

Is larry walker still hanging around anymore?

by jealousblues on May 1, 2007 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Horton was there on Monday
I was listening during the pregame show and they were talking to Ricky
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 2, 2007 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cards Nation
First I had a co-worker with a child at VT that had two roommates not make it back from their French class. Now this. We play 162 games for a reason. We'll bounce back.

And you know, to be honest there is next year!

by tommyguniii on May 1, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Tony apparently flipped out in the Press Conf
saying that the game was embarrassing and that he wasn't going to 'give this team a pass'.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 2, 2007 12:02 AM EDT reply actions  

i read that too^
at Bernies Pressbox

but what I saw on tv he wasnt yelling or anything crazy, but he didnt look stable.

by jealousblues on May 2, 2007 12:15 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't know if i would use to words
flipped out. no one hates losing more than Tony, and he was obviously angery at the teams effort tonight. you can't argue with the man. he is right. the last two games are no different than the whole month of april. I'm really torn about what Tony said. on the one hand everything he said about how the team is playing, he was completly right. but to say he's not going to give them a pass, when everyone can tell they are just not into playing right now because they lost Josh. I don't think I can agree with that. the team is visibily upset about losing Josh. and their hearts just are not into playing right now. they really are going through the motions. I can't fault them for that. and I don't think Tony should eather.

I think you got to give them more time to morn their loss than just two games. I read that Tony said before the game that everyone's mood waa more upbeat and closer to normal today. and maybe because of that Tony expected more effort out of the players tonight. the brewers and their fans were really into the game tonight. I'm willing to bet Tony saw that, then saw that the Cards still just didn't have it in them tonight. and that's why he was so angry in the post game.

Tony's right though. their play all year has been fuzzy and flat. I wonder if Walt is second guessing not breaking up this team more over the winter? after 03 he said he should have done that, but he didn't and the team didn't play up to their potential. you can say the same about the 07 Cards. everyone but Ronny is back, and the offense is deffinatly not playing up to their potential.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 2, 2007 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

everyone but ronnie?
juan is in springfield and can't seem to get a hit.
preston is here but he's an auto-out
we need our pitching back.

why did we not pay soup more?!?  weaver gets a free pass.  but i want soup back.

Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 2, 2007 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

let me clearlify
the every day line up is what i am talking about. true our rotation is completly different. but the entire bench came back, and only kennedy replaced ronnie in the every day line up. yes Juan is still on the DL. but I counted him because if he ever gets healthy, he will be back. to you honestly think the Cards record would be any different with a healthy Juan in right? maybe he wins us two more games. but the Cards would still be below .500 and still be playing flat and fuzzy.

I agree Soup should still be a Cardinal. but not for what the brewers gave him. 4 year at $42 million is way, WAY to much money, and one year too long. 3 years and some where between $20 and $30 million would have been the max I think the Cards should have offered him. its looks bad right now that the Cards didn't bring him back. the brewers as a whole are playing so well right now. but Soup will probably not be worth $12 million in that fourth year. the brewers are trying to win, and win now. and from the looks of it, and I know the season is still just a month old. but this might just be their year.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 2, 2007 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Soup
He will be good this year and maybe next, but the walls will start crumbling by year 3, and 12 mil for year #4??

Its only a month I have faith.

by elirock83 on May 2, 2007 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dont get it
IM sure I misread it but didnt the team win 105 games in 2004?

by jealousblues on May 2, 2007 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, but I was talking about 2003
Walt said after 2002 he should have broke up the team more. but he pretty much brought back everyone in 2003, and the Cards didn't play up to everyones expectations, and missed the playoffs in 2003.
The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on May 2, 2007 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think
That the PD will have some...

well they will have a Walt interview tomorrow with Strauss and I think Bernie will have a new article that should be worth reading.

by jealousblues on May 2, 2007 1:16 AM EDT reply actions  

maybe this lineup would work
eckstein
edmonds
pujols
duncan
rolen
kennedy
lf
molina
p

this would give edmonds more fastballs that he could hit and duncan would still get things to his because he's between pujols and rolen....

by tnek5 on May 2, 2007 1:50 AM EDT reply actions  

about that
dunc plays lf, not rf
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 2, 2007 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

no matter the circumstances
its a tragedy, if he was drunk and driving, he paid the ultimate price.  that doesnt make him a bad man it just makes him a man who made a bad choice, and most of us arent saints in that dept.
If you dont have outstanding relief pitching, you might as well piss on the fire and call the dogs....Whitey Herzog

by El Capitan on May 2, 2007 2:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Disagree.
Most of us don't drink and drive multiple times.  For those of us who have lost more than twenty people over the course of our lifetime due to drunk drivers we have no remorse over the death of a drunk driver who died in a single car accident.  Just because Hancock was a Cardinal doesn't give him a free pass.  

If Hancock was drunk off his ass and decided to drive, once again, and that was the main cause of his accident - fuck him.  He deserved it.  I could care less if he was a Cardinal.  Hancock didn't show the personal courage to call a cab, when offered, and took it upon himself to put the lives of EVERYONE he was on the road with in danger.  

Bad decision?  Maybe once.  When it becomes a trend over time that he was a drunk driver, which evidence has come to light that he has done this over and over again, then I have no remorse over his passing.  It was inevitable.  I take solace in knowing he didn't kill more people EVERY time he drank to much and drove home.

I can put the baseball player apart from the person.  Pete Rose was a great baseball player but a lying gambler who had a serious problem outside the lines.  Same thing with Hancock.  He was a great role player on a winning team.  Outside the lines, he was a drunk who needed help he will never receive.

I'm sorry his family has to deal with his loss.  I'm also thankful he didn't kill more people when he chose to drive a two ton death machine on public roads when he was unable to do so safely.

Hancock missed a 26,000 pound lift truck.  He was fined $500 earlier in the week for being so hungover that he missed the start of Thursday's game because he had spent the previous night drinking.

"Just another inch or so and he could have died two days earlier, because that tractor-trailer was traveling about 45 to 50 miles per hour," according to Sauget Police Chief Patrick Delaney.

Indeed.

Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

oops.
*too :)
Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

your judgment is too harsh imo
i agree with the thought that people who drive drunk are endangering everybody around them; it's reckless and irresponsible and often destroys innocent lives. i will even agree that this case is less sad, and less tragic, than it would have been had hancock killed some innocent person who was just minding his own business.

but "fuck him --- he got what he deserved" ??? what an awful thing to say. it says more about you, frankly, than it says about josh hancock.  the kid made some terrible decisions, but there is no evidence that he ever had malice in his heart ---- that he ever intended anbody any harm. and yes, i know that he made decisions that, sooner or later, were bound to harm somebody. if he sinned, his sins were ones of negligence and immaturity.

and we are all guilty of those at some point in our lives.

i also think it's unfair, and unkind, of you to call the guy a "drunk."

by lboros on May 2, 2007 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Negligence may not be harsh enough
In this day and age, I'd call drunk driving willful negligence or reckless endangerment.  If he was piss-drunk getting behind may not be malicious, but close.

by Zubin on May 2, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

fine --- reckless endangerment
i'll accept that.

even if hancock had run over 20 people before he killed himself, i wouldn't say "who cares --- fuck him, let him rot, he got what he deserved."

by lboros on May 2, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

and if i may elaborate
there's a difference between holding a person accountable for his actions and judging a person.

you can characterize hancock's actions as flagrantly stupid, irresponsible, dangerous, idiotic, reckless . . . . . use any terms you want. had he lived, he should and would be held accountable for those actions ---- prison time, restitution to victims, court-ordered rehab, whatever the circumstances might warrant. that would be fitting and fair and just.

but it's a long way from saying that to saying, "hancock was an evil person who was unworthy of being alive." that's where StlCardinalsFan is coming from. and i disagree with that.

by lboros on May 2, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Incredible.
i also think it's unfair, and unkind, of you to call the guy a "drunk."

Hey man, you along with almost everyone else around here can ignore the facts if it makes you feel better.  However, reality says Josh Hancock routinely went out to drink to excess then drove home drunk.  Those are the facts, son.  

Maybe if there were some wacky SABR formula to explain the FACT that Hancock was a drunk then more of you would understand.

Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

first of all, don't call me "son"
second of all, you seem to have a difficult time conversing in a courteous fashion with people who disagree with you.

that doesn't fly around here. learn the rules and abide by them or get lost.

by lboros on May 2, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Truth.
I'm terribly sorry you have your head in the sand about this.  Once the facts come out that Hancock was drunk off his ass (and they will) and his drunk driving was a larger trend of action for him you can apologize to me.  I'll look forward to that.  

Good day, sir.

Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

i can't decide,
if this guy is uneducated or if he just wasn't hugged as a child.

to say "fuck him" about someone who DIED? thats intense man. im not sure anyone doubts he was drinking anymore, we just all question your anger towards someone who is deceased. larry's right, im not sure you're capable of having a dignified argument without name-calling or throwing out your cocky phrases. larry doesn't owe you an apology for anything.

i dont get angry often, but if there is one thing i absolutely cannot stand it's disrespect. maybe it's just my southern heritage.

by longhornscardinals on May 2, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's cold dude
LB, sums it up best but you are really assuming a lot of facts u don't know.  These are two incidents (with some sketchy details) and you are drawing broad characterizations about Hancock with them.

Can you at least wait until he's in the ground before you say things like "fuck him" -- or better yet don't say things like that at all.  Bad decisions by an individual don't give you the right to simply condemn them.

totally out of line

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on May 2, 2007 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

re-reading carefully -
"For those of us who have lost more than twenty people over the course of our lifetime due to drunk drivers ... "

That's an incredible stat, and if it's true, helps explain his scorched-earth judgment on Hancock.

by Urban Pawnee on May 2, 2007 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

does it matter?
This isn't a body-count contest.  

I'm not going to discount how tragic that would be if true but that doesn't justify the attack on Hancock at all.  If (and it's still an IF) Hancock was driving drunk, that is deserved of scorn.  To say "fuck him.  He got what he deserved." is callous, disrespectful and unnecessary.  There's no need to say that Hancock should have died because he made what is, admittedly, a very stupid and reprehensible decision.

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on May 2, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

The tragedy here
The cardinals have all been "this is a family" "we have lost one of the family".

Well it looks like the family, if that's what they are, should have done more to prevent this from happening in the first place.

That's the tragedy.

by redbird2006in on May 2, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

How can anyone
really prevent this from happening if Josh didn't want to take advice that he was given from teamates and the bartender?  Ultimately this was a pood decision by Josh.  I don't think that he should be demonized for it though.  He did not "deserve" this death as stlcardinalsfan suggests either.  And the "fuck him" comment is uncalled for.  Just because you make a mistake, even a huge mistake doesn't mean that you deserve to die.  NOBODY deserves to die.  It happens tragically as in this case and even if the fact that he was drunk driving makes it less tragic, that doesn't take away from his loss to his family and to the Cardinals.

by eglasier on May 2, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I feel bad...
awful really, like down in my gut sick for the people that loved him who are left to deal with all of this.  Assuming he was drunk, he did an incredibly selfish, grossly reckless act, and paid the price for that mistake.  

Moreover, he left his parents, the rest of his family, his friends and his team mates to pick up the pieces.  To damn the guy for his decision, or to fuck him, that's way too harsh.  I'm not giving him a pass if he did that, but I'm not going to judge him because I've done that reckless act before and thank your major deity of choice that I didn't end up like him.

Josh Hancock paid for his choice with his life, unfortunatly, those who loved him have to pay for it as well.  

by Brock20 on May 2, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

True.
It is true.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrollton_bus_disaster

All drunk drivers deserve the highest punishment.  All of them.

Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

i ride by that area
every single time i go back and forth from home to college or home to anywhere northbound on I-71
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 2, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he was involved
With the people that died or were injured in this incident, I can understand his anger and his outrage (and the claim of over twenty people killed). But if I can glean from the article and his general demeanor, it would appear that he is a religious person. And while I am certainly not aware of all the tenets of every religion, I'm pretty sure almost all of them leave righteous judgement unto one being. And I'm pretty sure it's not you, me, or him.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on May 2, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

It might expain his philosophy
But I don't think that it excuses it.

Josh Hancock was a 29-year-old ballplayer, over a thousand miles from home. He probably had few hobbies, few outlets to occupy his time after the games, so he turned to alcohol and hung out with friends on the team that drank as well. I've seen no mention of a girlfriend since the start of this tragedy; I'm sure there are plenty of us (myself included) on this blog that know the feeling of pushing thirty and no prospects in sight - pretty damn depressing. Plus he's had weight problems in the past; don't know if that is due to addictive behaviors (eating and/or drinking), but it sounds familiar to me.

So you have a young man working in a high pressure job, far from home, more than likely alone & depressed, with a work schedule that allows plenty of opportunities for late nights carousing and boozing it up, and potentially a personality that thrives on addictive behavior. A situation rife with possibilities for making bad decisions. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it helps explain it some.

As far as Hancock bearing the weight of the "over twenty people" killed by drunk drivers in the previous poster's lifetime, that's absolute bullshit! He made a lot of wrong choices and he finally got burned by them, but he's only truly responsible for himself, not those other people that have fueled the poster's anger. There are many mistakes, large and small, that I make on a everyday basis, and a myriad of possibilities of horrible things that could come out of them. But I am only ultimately responsible for what happens, not what might have happened, what could have ...

I feel for Josh and his situation before he passed on. My life isn't too different (other than playing baseball all day and getting paid significantly more money), with relationships, depression, being prone to addictive behavior (I've never consumed alcohol, but I know the monster's waiting for me if I do), loneliness, making stupid mistakes ... Don't judge him on what might have happened. Better yet, you shouldn't judge him at all. The only thing that you should do is learn from his life, as you should with everyone, and better yourself from it.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on May 2, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

You Must Be Kidding Me
Bad decisions by an individual don't give you the right to simply condemn them.

This wasn't simply a "bad decision".  This accident was part of a larger trend of Hancock driving drunk.  I've been absolutely amazed that so many people around here have had their heads in the sand about that.  

Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

even
if it was a larger trend,  Who are you to condemn anyone?  Do you call the shots in this world or the next?  If Josh was a bad guy, its not for you to determine.  No matter how many mistakes he made, it does not lie with us to condemn him.  He is dead, he paid the ultimate price.  And sorry for the loss of your friends but no one here has their heads in the sand.  I think that you might have yours up your ass though.

by eglasier on May 2, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think it's time for our
community board to spring into action . . . .

by lboros on May 2, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

sorry
that last part was a bit out of line...

by eglasier on May 2, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah?
I call someone "son" which is HARDLY an insult yet YOU say I have my head up my ass and NOTHING is done?!  Not even a warning?!  

Incredible.

Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Uh
Note that I apologized. Shouldn't have said it...your snide comeback on the other hand did not.  

by eglasier on May 2, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

i wasn't talking about you eglasier
although you're right, that last line was unnecessary. i was talking about stlcardinalfan.

by lboros on May 2, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought
that, but just wanted to acknowledge my own culpability in this conversation that has taken a bad turn.

by eglasier on May 2, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably.
I'll judge him all I want all day every day.  It's my prerogative.
Please, score some runs...

by STLCardinalsFan on May 2, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

and it's my prerogative
to kick assholes off my blog, summarily.

which i'm doing with you.

by lboros on May 2, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

larry
I'm going to weigh in here. I agree with you all you guys who say STLCardinalsFan was out of line, and I'm not trying to defend him. But if I were on the community board, I wouldn't ban the guy. He's obviously emotional about this, but so are many people here, and he seems to have had a personal connection to a major accident caused by a drunk driver. It's your blog, of course, but I'd give him another chance.

by DCGreg on May 2, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

appreciate that sentiment DCG
actually, before you posted i asked the community board to review the thread and let me know if they think i overreacted. if their consensus opinion is that i did overreact, then i'll abide by their opinion. stlcardinalsfan will be reinstated, and i'll lodge a complaint against him, and the board will review the complaint, and things will proceed per the rules.

my problem with stlcardinalsfan has nothing to do with his opinion. it has to do with his condescending and belligerent reaction when people disagreed with him. he has exhibited that tendency before and been warned about it. my judgment is that he doesn't respect the spirit of the community --- that's why i dropped the guillotine.

but if the board's decision is that i overstepped, he'll get another chance. but he'll only be allowed to stay if he shows he can get along with people, even those who disagree with him.

stlcardinalsfan has some provocative opinions, and that's fine ---- those are welcome here. but he's got to be prepared for people disagree with him --- and to defend himself appropriately.

by lboros on May 2, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm glad I wasn't around this morning
If that Hancock-deserved-it shit isn't over the line, there is no line.

Some people may cope with death by pointing out their own superiority to the deceased, but it's not an attitude that I (for one) can tolerate.

How hard is these guidelines to figure out?

Don't write something online that, said in person, would get you dragged into the street and beat to a pulp.

by liam on May 2, 2007 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

stlcardinalsfan
you are an asshole....."fuck him" keep that to yourself
Baseball Heaven??? They tore that down last year

by MississippiCardMan on May 2, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

look, man
i am sorry for whatever losses you suffered in what was obviously a horrible incident. and i'm as big into this issue as anyone - i was one of six people who founded what is now one of the biggest designated-driver programs in the country.

http://stripes.missouri.edu/

(hope that link works)

but no drunk driver deserves to die. because no drunk driver, other than i guess possibly those who are both drunk AND, independently, murderous, actually intend to hurt anyone. therefore, those who don't hurt anyone are just lucky, right? so there's no reason to differentiate in terms of punishment between those who actually do hurt someone and those who, luckily, don't.

so, following your logic, every time someone gets a DUI, their punishment should be lethal injection - because everyone who drives drunk is just as culpable as those who actually kill someone.

do you really think that? i mean, if you do, i guess you're entitled to your opinion, though i also think that would be one of the more insane things i've ever heard.

obviously this would be unconstitutional (literally - it'd be cruel and unusual punishment), but that would make this the complete list of crimes with a potential death sentence: first-degree (not even second-degree) murder, treason, driving drunk.

josh's death was tragic - i would actually argue MORE so if he was drunk, not less, because of how avoidable that would make it - and yes, it's incredibly lucky he didn't hurt anyone else. but that doesn't mean he deserved it - he didn't.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 2, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Striking a chord
This tragedy, like any of public interest, goes beyond the simple "facts" of what happened to one person on one night. So far we've seen people here publicly admit to being alcoholics themselves after hearing what happened. Others who have dealt with drunk driving tragedies themselves in the past and are having trouble dealing with this too.

Does anyone have the right to condemn Hancock? Not really. Similarly, none of us has the power to excuse his actions either. Really all we can do is choose to accept what happened or ignore it. You can do either of those things in private or do them here, for hundreds to see.

Ironically, even though this blog is minuscule compared to a major league organizations, we commenters who choose to write our opinions are dealing with the tragedy in a public way ourselves. People can see these words, and these words stir up emotions just like the plays we see on the field every night (probably moreso).

It has been three days. This isn't over. But a year from now it will be, and we'll be left with a sad memory. Let's all take some deep breaths and keep perspective, eh?

by effin fisk on May 2, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Any time you do anything
In a vehicle, you are putting everyone around you at risk. If you listen to the radio. If you suck down a Slurpie. If you pick up a quarter from the floorboard. If you sneeze (remember your eyes always shut when you do that). If you ever thought of anything other than the road ahead of you and the vehicles around you, you have put everyone at risk. You're hurtling a significant mass of metal & plastic down the road at a velocity of greater than 25 m/sec, mere feet away from some other idiot digging through a bag, talking on a hands free device, rubbing sleep out of his eye, etc. A split second difference in reaction time, regardless of your condition, could lead to a ten-car pileup.

Drinking alcohol in excess and sitting behind a wheel is a willful act of stupidity, and it is against the law. But that mistake, by and of itself, does not kill anyone, and no one has the right to treat that person like a murderer. Not you, not me, not anyone.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on May 2, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

we're failing to consider
the potential role of alcoholism as a disease when we make this only about jh's choices.  i'm not going to excuse him, or anyone else who gets behind the wheel after drinking and does damage to themselves or someone else, but if he in fact had a drinking problem (which we will likely never know), it makes it much more difficult to pass judegment.  

you've got substantial evidence that both genetic and behavioral markers for alcoholim exist.  for those of us who have fought any sort of personal battles, it is discouraging to know that anyone out there with the least amount of knowledge about us is passing judgement.  

should people who survive these incidents be punished?  absolutely!  but fuck him?  rarely, if ever.

by sdesserman on May 2, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're absolutely right
About the genetic and behavioral markers. In a way, I consider myself to be an alcoholic and the only taste I've ever had of alcohol was a sip of PBR when I was 6 or 7. I have cravings for the stuff every once in a while and I know myself well enough to know that the quicksand would be instantly over my head upon starting. Never mind the "knowledge" that this mild-mannered Dr. Jeckyll would turn into a violent Mr. Hyde with proper chemical enhancement.

As far as drunk driving is concerned, you don't have to step behind the wheel to put everyone around you at risk.

It certainly wasn't my intention to divulge such personal information today, but I thought it necessary to try to get a better understanding of what Josh Hancock might have been going through. Being a professional ballplayer isn't necessarily the perfect job and the perfect life. Everything can, and will, go to shit in an instant if the fates decide.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on May 2, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I step back and gaze at this string ...
even tho it's admittedly a sad direction we've veered off on - what with the team's sad+sloppy losing, and the accident, and the drunk-driving blowback discussion - I'm just appreciative there's a place we can express the various levels of pain and outrage that go with being a Card fan right now.

Thanks.

by Urban Pawnee on May 2, 2007 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

lets start talking baseball
were 6.5 back in a division that clearly has no chance at getting a wild card.  we have to win the division to make it to october.  as good as suppan has been we all know he will hit a rough stretch, they will not hit like this all year long (milwaukee or us)

weve started shitty before, carp will be back, surely we will hit.

what we do need is someone like hancock to take those beatings like last night, we taxed the pen while getting shelled

Baseball Heaven??? They tore that down last year

by MississippiCardMan on May 2, 2007 11:37 AM EDT reply actions  

or for
our starters to start performing...hopefully one of the three will start to happen

by eglasier on May 2, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

we had to figure
reyes and wainwright would take some time to adjust....the brewers will slump, I'm not completely giving up on wells, if we can be within 5 at the as break...i think the central is ours for the taking
I was there, Ice cold Busch stadium, section 597, row 10, seat 4...October 27, 2006 when Wainwright nailed down long awaited #10

by MississippiCardMan on May 2, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'm not giving up
but, barring several things happening, i can't really see the cards getting back into this. those things:
  1. complete recovery by carpenter (read: 25 starts, good enough to be in the discussion for the cy)
  2. regression to the mean for "mv3" and continued success by dunc (read: from here on out, ops of 1.000+ for pujols and combined .850+ for rolen/jed/dunc, with no significant time lost due to injury)
  3. combined era of under 4.7 from the non-carp portion of the rotation
  4. something bad happening in chicago.
the first three things, taken together, would actually be an overperformance from the 2006 regular season. that will be necessary because a) the division competition - milwaukee and chicago - is better this year than it was last year, so 83 games isn't likely to get it done; b) they're starting in a 6 1/2-game hole.

the fourth thing is necessary because, if you look at the peripherals, chicago looks a lot more likely to recover and become part of the division race than the cards do. i realize marquis and lilly are not going to be this good all year, but zambrano won't be that bad, and piniella will do a better job of setting the lineup (by default, if nothing else). and they've been unlucky so far.

like i said, i'm not giving up hope. but that's probably what has to happen.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 2, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

also
some kind of production from the leadoff spot....i heard something last night that we've only scored 3 forst inning runs...a pujols homer against the brewers that sunday at busch...we have got to get early leads like we have done the previous 3 years.  

i think kennedy was a bad pick up as well, lots of money for a guy that no better than belliard was

I was there, Ice cold Busch stadium, section 597, row 10, seat 4...October 27, 2006 when Wainwright nailed down long awaited #10

by MississippiCardMan on May 2, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

i disagree about kennedy
he's in a funk, but he's a much better defender and a good hitter once he actually starts to hit.
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 2, 2007 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

defense
Dial ranked him as the best 2bman in the last 20 years.  However, his defensive metrics (including Dial's, I believe) showed him really taper off last year.  I hope it's a blip and that his defense isn't in decline.

by RedbirdRay on May 2, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

uh, sorry for my rant a few posts up
it's a little incoherent, and not entirely sure it's relevant. basically, what i meant was:
  1. stlcardinalfan: you are being ridiculous.
  2. josh hancock: tragic; huge mistake; did not deserve what happened.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 2, 2007 11:38 AM EDT reply actions  

game post?
we have a day game.
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 2, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Mulder = savior?
I am NOT a Mulder fan, but it seemed to be pretty well documented that his problems over the last year and a half had to do with his arm angle and stuff, which seems to have been caused by a nagging injury. Maybe the surgery and all this time off will get him back into the shape he was in during his Oakland days.

The fact that i'm wishing for his return sort of sums up the sad state of our team right now.

by effin fisk on May 2, 2007 12:02 PM EDT reply actions  

He's a completely different...
type of pitcher than Hudson, but it gives me hope seeing him bounce back after Oakland let him go.  Makes me think maybe the same can happen for Mulder...and yes...it is sad...

by joeyart on May 2, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can he play 2nd base?
How about short stop?  center field?  

What order in the line-up do you have him bat?

In our losses we have scored the following amount of runs:
2,1,1,3,3,0,2,5,1,2,2,1,0,1,1

A pathetic average of 1.6 runs per game.

Okay pick that 5 run game out of there and say our pitchers let us down that game, and we should have one it.

We are still a bad bad offensive team and no amount of pitcher is going to fix it.

by redbird2006in on May 2, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

egads
won = one?
pitching = pitcher?

I'm upset, sorry.

by redbird2006in on May 2, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

okay okay
the headline was supposed to be sarcastic. No, he won't save the team. point taken. I just meant to say that i hope he does well and that the team, as a whole, is struggling. It isn't just batting. There have been errors--both fielding and in judgement--and bad pitching and bad hitting.

by effin fisk on May 2, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

lineup
so
dunc
ap
rolen
spez
bennett
miles
eck
reyes
I was there, Ice cold Busch stadium, section 597, row 10, seat 4...October 27, 2006 when Wainwright nailed down long awaited #10

by MississippiCardMan on May 2, 2007 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

edmonds' day off then
Redbirds Fun
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock

by cardsfan84 on May 2, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Capuano
Edmonds has looked pretty lost facing Cappy previously.  Seems like a good day to give him some rest.  

by RedbirdRay on May 2, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's one scrappy line up
(I'm trying to put the best spin on it I can)

by Urban Pawnee on May 2, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

drop the s
sorry, gallows humor is getting the better of me
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on May 2, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

any type of humour
in these dark days - be it gallows or otherwise - is welcome

by Urban Pawnee on May 2, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don't understand
Why Bennett is always catching for Reyes.  It seems like a young, inexperienced pitcher would benefit by playing with one of the better defensive/mental pitchers in the league (See: Molina, Yadier).  If you're going to pair Bennett with a pitcher for starts, give him Wells.  Just doesn't make much sense to me.

by stl tyler on May 2, 2007 12:30 PM EDT reply actions  

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