Reyes' New Pitch (too bad he doesn't know it yet)

by bdief on Apr 16, 2007 2:30 PM EDT

I have an undocumented history of wanting Anthony Reyes to learn the split-finger fastball.

I have an undocumented history of wanting Anthony Reyes to learn the split-finger fastball. I had thought when all of the talk about Reyes needing to learn to keep the ball down that the best way to not affect him too much was to let him continue with the 4-seamer and then add the split. It gets the ground out that the coaches want and the Ks that Reyes wants with very little adjustment to his philosophy/approach.

This was brought back to the spotlight after his last start when he seemingly abandoned the changeup altogether.

Today, somebody just pointed out to me that Paul Byrd was listening to my advice even though I never gave it to him.

A couple of things that led me to this conclusion:

I will always remember in 2002 when Andy Benes came back from his knee injury he picked up the split and was striking out hitters at a rate that I thought was not possible for him. What changed? He added a splitter.
Watching Danny Haren pitch in the playoffs last year. He would get a hitter 1-2 or 0-2 and then let the splitter fly. It always seemed (and this is probably revisionist history) to get either a strikeout or a groundout.

I know that there is a stigma against the pitch. The Columbus Dispatch article has lines about an old dog needing a new trick, etc. But the thing is just too darn effective. And Anthony is in need right now.

This just seemed like a good time to bring this up since the Cards are open to advice at this point in the season.

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Comments

There's a stigma agaist a pitch

The Clemens uses to smack people around? At least I think he uses that pitch a lot.

by sdrone on Apr 16, 2007 2:40 PM EDT reply actions

I thought that the problem was an arm strain one

Reyes was often hurt in the minors, and the splitter puts a lot of stress on the elbow.

by Valatan on Apr 16, 2007 3:20 PM EDT reply actions

I concur.

Anyone, even us amatuers, who have ever thrown a splitter know what kind of stress it causes on an elbow.

IMHO, Reyes just needs to be better about accepting TLR and Duncan's instructions. His apparant hardheadedness reminds me of a former Cardinals pitcher who isn't named around here.

by Zubin on Apr 16, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions

I was

in a very heated conversation about that exact subject at the open mess last night. It's nice to see some one else agrees.

by DJ4508 on Apr 16, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions

That being said,

he's a bit older now, and he can probably deal with a little more wear now that he's pitched a few seasons injury-free. Teaching him a splitter to use as a fourth pitch for the third time through the lineup might not be a bad idea.

by Valatan on Apr 16, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions

An ideal preference

I'd like to see him add some kind of sinker from a completely different arm slot. If he just added a tailing fastball, thrown sidearm, that he could consistently throw below the knees, he'd be able to pitch up and down as well as changing speeds. If he could get batters to sit on his crappy sidearm fastball, his high heat and changeup would be that much more effective when thrown for strikes.

Throwing from a completely different arm angle might keep it from effecting his mechanics on his bread and butter pitches.

by liam on Apr 16, 2007 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Duncan and TLR were the ones being

hard headed -- if Jason Schmidt came over in the offseason would they ask him to throw more of the two-seam fastball. . .probably not because he's a veteran. Yet just because Reyes is young, and despite the fact that he flat out dominated the minors with a four-seam fastball, they feel the need to mess with him.

It may take a while for him to get it figured out because they are asking him to pitch in a manner that was antithetical to what he was doing to be successful. It's not that he couldn't pitch down in the zone, he just did it with a four-seam fastball. And there are pitchers who can be successful living up in the zone. TLR and Duncan seem overly obsessed with groundballs.

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on Apr 16, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Perhaps if Reyes cam pile up the number

of victories Schmidt has, they'll leave him alone...

by sdrone on Apr 16, 2007 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions

it's a chicken-egg question

maybe he'd pile up the victories if they would leave him alone; maybe converting to a 2-seamer will make this particular pitcher less likely to pile up victories.

they appeared to have struck a reasonable compromise in S.T. --- reyes threw the 2-seamer as a secondary fastball, and reinstituted the 4-seam as his primary fastball. that seems like a sensible approach, one that can only help reyes; let's give it a chance.

by lboros on Apr 16, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions

with all due respect...

... i don't think Reyes ever had the ceiling that Schmidt had. he's never projected that high. he's never had the tools that Schmidt had (e.g. he can't throw mid/upper-90s like Schmidt used to be able to). i'm not saying that Reyes can't/won't be a successful pitcher, with or without the 2-seam, but if he masters it, he'll be a better pitcher. 2-pitchers starters don't usually have long records of success unless they can throw REALLY hard.

in any event, this isn't a chicken/egg situation. not at all. Schmidt was a perennial Cy Young contender for a few years. i don't think Reyes ever projected anywhere near that high. to even hint at the notion that Reyes would be as good as Schmidt - or even in the same ballpark - if TLR/Dunc "just left him alone" is silly.

anyways, what are coaches for? to make players better. look, TLR/Dunc mess with veteran pitchers also. they mess with every pitcher that comes through. and they've got a much better track record than nearly anybody else in baseball. the people who aren't successful in the system are those who don't buy into it. those who do buy in are rewarded.

Looper has bought in, and so he has TLR/Dunc's confidence. Carpenter bought in. Suppan bought in. Wells has bought in. Marquis didn't. Reyes was resistant at first, and TLR/Dunc don't like that. they've spent decades crafting this system with excellent results.

but i do agree with your last paragraph, and i think TLR/Dunc do as well. Reyes' primary fastball should be his 4-seam. i'm not sure TLR/Dunc ever disagreed. they wanted him to learn to 2-seam to complement the 4-seam; not to supplant it. it doesn't seem like a "compromise". it's just as likely that that was the plan all along.

by kindred on Apr 16, 2007 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions

<clapping>

exactly how I feel.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Apr 16, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions

cheers.

by kindred on Apr 16, 2007 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions

oh...

... and that said, last year's Game 1 WS BALLSY victory by Reyes is one of my favorite baseball moments. to go into Detroit, after basically being shunned all year by TLR/Dunc, and after getting banged up a bit in the NLCS, with the Tigers firing on all cylinders and everyone predicting a rout, with everyone whispering about Ankiel...

Reyes goes in and shuts them down. and he had to do it from the stretch most of the game 'cos he was tipping his pitches.

dude showed some guts, and set the tone for the whole series. and i'll always love him for that.

by kindred on Apr 16, 2007 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions

kindred, i disagree

first of all, you overestimate the esteem that schmidt was held in. it's easy for you to say in retrospect that schmidt always projected to have a high ceiling, but in fact the opinions were just as divided on him as they were on reyes. like reyes, he was jerked in and out of an established rotation while safe veterans like steve avery (post-injury), kent mercker, and mike bielecki took regular turns. his first 19 starts were about the same as reyes' have been --- he went 7-8 with a 5.23 era in 105 innings.

it was only when he was allowed to pitch on a regular basis that he blossomed --- and that couldn't happen under mazzone and cox. the same may be true of reyes under duncan and la russa. they're perfectionists, and they have a difficult time letting an inexperienced hurler pitch through his mistakes.

as for reyes, there are plenty of people, both statheads and seamheads, who project reyes as front-of-rotation material --- and continue to do so. two prominent people who don't are dave duncan and tony la russa, but their opinions are not shared by everyone. and they're not right about every player.

by lboros on Apr 16, 2007 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions

bingo!

hear, hear. i just don't see reyes thriving, not on this team, not with tlr and dd. they are great managers, but they blew it with haren by not recognizing his talents and having him traded for an established vet, and they are doing it with reyes. it sorta maddening to me. this whole affair is pretty irritating to me.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Apr 16, 2007 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions

i wasn't clear...

... i wasn't saying that Schmidt projected higher than Reyes projects. i honestly have no idea how Schmidt projected. i was saying that i've seen no projection of Reyes that places him in the same category of Schmidt's peak performance. in other words, i haven't seen a projection which puts Reyes as a Cy-caliber pitcher. "top of the rotation"... maybe. the jury's still out. but not "top of the league". and for a 4 year period (or so), that's exactly what Schmidt was.

by kindred on Apr 16, 2007 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions

you original argument was the reyes' ceiling

is lower than schmidt's, and that it's "silly" to entertain the possibility that reyes could ever be as good as schmidt. but when schmidt was reyes' age (25 years old) and had a career era of 4.64 in over 500 career innings, it would have seemed just as silly to you that anybody might suggest jason schmidt would eventually be an ace pitcher.

schmidt was a lot like reyes when he came up. a lot of people thought he was just a thrower, not a pitcher, and would get hammered by major league hitters. for years, the skeptics appeared to be right. look at schmidt's career line. he didn't post a sub-4.00 era until age 29 --- his 8th season in the league. and even then, it only happened because he moved into an extreme pitcher's park in san francisco.

none of this is to say that reyes is destined to turn into jason schmidt. but noting we have seen from reyes so far ---- in only about 120 innings of big-league pitching --- precludes him from reaching that ceiling.

let's hope he gets there.

by lboros on Apr 16, 2007 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Reyes won't get there - here.

I agree that under LaDuncan he has little chance. I think they've used him this year out of necessity. I get the feeling more and more that he may be used as a trading chip later in the year.

Look, LaRussa and Duncan know what they are doing. Their success with veteran reclamation projects is unparalleled. That being said, they have LITTLE to NO record of developing young starters. Period.

Matty Mo is the only one I can think of off-hand. And I'm not so sure we can credit Duncan fully for his first 5 years. Wainwright fits in the Morris mold - great stuff, good mound presence, guts galore. Anybody can coach guys like that.

by silent_bob on Apr 16, 2007 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Random thoughts

Whoever trades for Reyes will probably get a good deal for him since our system (and presumably lots of the league) are down on him. Maybe we should go after someone else who is frowned upon by his team (VEB Favorite Ryan Church? Ya, he's another lefty... but I'm thinking off the top of my head.)

And as far as developing pitching under TLR/DD, the thing Wagonmaker, Morris, and even Ankiel have in common is their killer curveball. Neither Haren or Reyes had a plus breaking pitch. Haren now relies on his splitter and location (to my knowledge...) and Reyes has always been a fastball/changeup pitcher.

I have no idea what that means, but to me it is an interesting coincidence.

by TICY on Apr 16, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Not yet

He's only pitched one game this year. Can we wait and see how the next few go before demanding a new pitch already? He still hasn't even pitched a whole year as a starter . . .

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Apr 16, 2007 5:06 PM EDT reply actions

I just hope

They stick with him. He can be good when he's on, he's cheap. We only have wells on a one year, and Mulder is definitely no guarantee. I hope they give Mulder 3-4 rehab starts before you bump Anthony from the rotation.

by Toddius396 on Apr 16, 2007 11:32 PM EDT reply actions