Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Network Message: 50% Off: CBS/SB Nation Fantasy Baseball

joint custody

the p-d's morning elbow report cuts right to the chase: "Cardinals ace Chris Carpenter probably will remain disabled for the rest of this month after an examination Monday disclosed that he is suffering from what the club called moderate arthritis and a mild impingement of the right elbow." our community's own experts weigh in here.

Update [2007-4-10 12:5:28 by lboros]: will carroll just sent me a sneak preview of his remarks for Under the Knife, which haven't posted yet at Baseball Prospectus but ought to appear there shortly. the gist of his comments: surgery looms as a pretty likely outcome. he also warns that with nonsurgical treatment, there's a risk that carp alters his mechanics to favor the elbow --- and thereby re-injures his shoulder or causes some other, more serious injury.[end update]

teams can survive the temporary loss of an ace, but few teams are as dependent upon their ace as the cardinals are. the red sox, defending their championship in 2005, lost curt schilling for most of the first half --- he went to the dl after only 3 starts and stayed there until july 14, and when he returned he was the team's closer; didn't rejoin the rotation until august 25. like the cardinals, those red sox had suffered heavy free-agent defections (derek lowe and pedro martinez) from their title rotation; with schilling gone, they had to get by with tim wakefield, david wells, bronson arroyo, and matt clement. schilling's absence hurt --- they finished 11th in the league in era --- but they still won 95 games, thanks to a 910-run output from the offense.

these cards won't be scoring 5.5 runs a game, though, so the red sox comparison isn't very useful. another, more instructive recipe for survival was demonstrated by --- and in this crowd, i cite the following example with the utmost trepidation --- the 2004 chicago cubs, who managed to improve upon the record of the division-winning 2003 team despite losing both prior and wood for 10 starts apiece. their offense in 2004 wasn't much better (7th in the league in '04, vs 9th in 2003), but their secondary pitchers were much, much better --- matt clement pitched at the top of his range, zambrano emerged as ace material, and greg maddux was a gigantic improvement over the previous year's #5 starter, shawn estes. those cubs entered the final week of the season leading the wild-card race; if not for the collapse of the bullpen in that final week, they would have won 90+ games and made the playoffs --- and would have done so in a league much tougher than this year's nl, with five other teams above 90 wins.

in a best-case scenario, the cardinals would follow a recipe similar to this one (sans the late-september swoon), with the other four starters pitching at or near the top of their games to cover for carpenter during his absence. it's a bit early to start handicapping that prospect, given that we haven't even cycled through the rotation twice yet. but it's not an entirely vain hope. the cardinals themselves can point to a couple of happy precedents, 20 and 40 years ago, respectively. the '87 team lost john tudor to a broken leg after only 3 starts; he was out from april 17 until august 1. those cards were nearly as reliant on their ace as the current team is; the remainder of the rotation prominently featured a 2d-year pitcher (greg mathews), a rookie (joe magrane), and a wizened old codger (bob forsch). herzog tiptoed through the schedule with a couple of replacement pitchers (lee tunnel, tim conroy) and 6 decent starts from rickey horton; by the time tudor returned, the cardinals were 24 games over .500 and 5 games up on the division. the '87 cards had a great offense, which the '07 team doesn't; but then, they faced more difficult competition --- three divisional rivals topped 90 wins that season.

and of course there is the 1967 team, the original El Birdos, who lost their only proven pitcher, bob gibson, for nearly two months (also to a broken leg) and thrived in his absence. i wrote lovingly of that team in this post last june, when pujols went down. citing that entry:

with [gibson's] departure for the disabled list, the st louis rotation consisted of one true rookie, a 28-year-old journeyman named dick hughes; a 22-year-old left-hander in his first full major-league season, steve carlton; a 2d-year player named larry jaster; and one established veteran, ray washburn, who was kind of the jeff suppan of his day. to this mix the cardinals added 23-year-old reliever nelson briles, who had gone 4-15 as a starter the previous season. washburn's career record entering 1967 was 41-37; the other four guys in the gibsonless rotation owned a combined total of 26 major-league wins.
that undistinguished cast led the cardinals from a 3.5-game lead on the nl as of july 9 to an 11.5-game lead by the time gibson returned. i refer you to the full post for details.

i'm not saying this is likely, ok? it's far more likely the cardinals will struggle if carpenter's out for any significant length of time. and the aces of '67 and '87 suffered injuries to their legs; carp's injury is to his arm, a much scarier proposition.

but don't stop watching. not yet.

* * * * * * * * * *

i matched the rotation with the schedule to see where keisler's starts would fall. i realize that keisler's not guaranteed more than one start; if he bombs tonight, they may try brad thompson, matt ginter, or somebody else. so just read keisler as "replacement pitcher" in the ensuing discussion. just for the sake of argument, let's make the assumption that carpenter will be out for another four weeks; i realize his disablement might be shorter or longer, but let's just pretend. if they stick to a straight five-man rotation with no adjustments for off-days, here's how things line up:
4/8 @hou
wells
4/9 @pgh
looper
4/10 @pgh
keisler
4/11 @pgh
wainwright
4/12
OFF
4/13 mil
reyes
4/14 mil
wells
4/15 mil
looper
4/16 pgh
keisler
4/17 pgh
wainwright
4/18 @sf
reyes
4/19 @sf
wells
4/20 @chi
looper
4/21 @chi
keisler
4/22 @chi
wainwright
4/23
OFF
4/24 cin
reyes
4/25 cin
wells
4/26 cin
looper
4/27 chi
keisler
4/28 chi
wainwright
4/29 chi
reyes
4/30 @mil
wells
5/1 @mil
looper
5/2 @mil
keisler
5/3
OFF
5/4 hou
wainwright
5/5 hou
reyes
5/6 hou
wells
5/7 col
looper
5/8 col
carpenter
5/9 col
wainwright
5/10
OFF

that's 5 starts by keisler/replacement guy, all against divisional foes: 2 against pittsburgh, 2 against the cubs, 1 against the brewers. now we'll adjust for the off days, skipping the #5 guy's turn wherever the schedule affords the opportunity:

4/8 @hou
wells
4/9 @pgh
looper
4/10 @pgh
keisler
4/11 @pgh
wainwright
4/12
OFF
4/13 mil
reyes
4/14 mil
wells
4/15 mil
looper
4/16 pgh
wainwright
4/17 pgh
keisler
4/18 @sf
reyes
4/19 @sf
wells
4/20 @chi
looper
4/21 @chi
wainwright
4/22 @chi
keisler
4/23
OFF
4/24 cin
reyes
4/25 cin
wells
4/26 cin
looper
4/27 chi
wainwright
4/28 chi
keisler
4/29 chi
reyes
4/30 @mil
wells
5/1 @mil
looper
5/2 @mil
wainwright
5/3
OFF
5/4 hou
reyes
5/5 hou
wells
5/6 hou
looper
5/7 col
wainright
5/8 col
carpenter
5/9 col
wainwright
5/10
OFF

we eliminate a start; keisler only pitches 4 times --- twice vs pittsburgh, twice vs the cubs. but man, those two starts vs the cubs stick out; you hate to see the cards throwing a bad pitcher two times against one of their chief rivals. but because of the way the off days fall, it's difficult to get keisler out of there. the only way i can figure it out (and i've ruled out anybody starting on short rest) would be the following: give keisler a couple of starts and see how he does. if it looks like he's trustworthy, go ahead and throw him vs the cubs; if not, then insert another replacement starter on april 19, in order to set up the rotation for optimal matchups. like so:

4/8 @hou
wells
4/9 @pgh
looper
4/10 @pgh
keisler
4/11 @pgh
wainwright
4/12
OFF
4/13 mil
reyes
4/14 mil
wells
4/15 mil
looper
4/16 pgh
wainwright
4/17 pgh
keisler
4/18 @sf
reyes
4/19 @sf
thompson
4/20 @chi
wells
4/21 @chi
looper
4/22 @chi
wainwright
4/23
OFF
4/24 cin
reyes
4/25 cin
thompson
4/26 cin
wells
4/27 chi
looper
4/28 chi
wainwright
4/29 chi
reyes
4/30 @mil
thompson
5/1 @mil
wells
5/2 @mil
looper
5/3
OFF
5/4 hou
wainwright
5/5 hou
reyes
5/6 hou
wells
5/7 col
looper
5/8 col
carpenter
5/9 col
wainwright
5/10
OFF

i used brad thompson as the 2d replacement starter in this example, but it could be anybody --- matt ginter, narveson, whoever you want. you still wind up with only five replacement-pitcher starts, but the replacement-level guy only pitches once against a strong contender (milwaukee on april 30); his other four starts come against the two weakest divisional teams (pittsburgh and cincinnati) and a so-so nl west team (giants). 14 of the 15 games against the cubs, astros, and brewers would be started by one of the top 4 starting pitchers. everybody gets plenty of rest --- most of the regular starters are pitching on 5 days' rest more often during this stretch than on the normal 4 days.

until more is known about carpenter's condition, they'll be flying in the dark vis-vis the rotation; it might be most sensible to simply go with the first option above and keep everybody on a normal cycle. tony could lose more than he gains by tinkering around and shuffling guys in and out of slots; it's still very early in the season to be playing matchups to the hilt.

as long as we're discussing replacement players: blake hawksworth made his triple A debut last night, and another key prospect (jaime garcia) debuted at double a. head over to erik's for the full prospect report.

0 recs  |  Comment 116 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

good stuff
the glass is half full with you and i like that. lets hope we can keep our bats talking.
I wasn't a religious man before but Albert Pujols confirms the truth that is Jesus H. Christ of Nazareth.

by 636thestruggle on Apr 10, 2007 9:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

half full?
perish the thought! i've been a fully committed half-emptyer my whole life. i'm painting rosy scenarios here, but that's not to suggest i think they are likely. they're possible, because baseball is unpredictable and anything can happen. i'm definitely hoping for the best, and until further notice i'm assuming this team has much to play for.

but it's very possible that they are hosed. i'll just wait until that really happens before i mourn it.

by lboros on Apr 10, 2007 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so Larry,
has my elbowgate information been helpful, or have I begun to sound like I have no idea what I'm talking about?

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i've found it helpful
and it has been pretty realistic too. from the very beginning, you expressed doubt that carp would be able to take his regular turn vs the pirates --- check. you also have expressed the hope that a non-surgical fix is possible; also check, at least based on current information.

so keep the info/opinions coming.

by lboros on Apr 10, 2007 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
keep in coming, SilentBob. Yours is useful stuff.

by DCGreg on Apr 10, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought
half-full was the optimist and half-empty was the pessimist.   (or maybe I misunderstood the whole debate, in which case, ignore me)

by chuckb on Apr 10, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The ceramic engineer
Optimist:
The glass is half-full

Pessimist:
The glass is half empty

Ceramic engineer:
There is 50% to much glass.

by Zubin on Apr 10, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to, too and two
that should be: There is 50% too much glass!

by Zubin on Apr 10, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is the glass half-full or empty?
I ask her as I fill it
She says it doesn't really matter
Pretty soon you're bound to spill it  -  Indigo Girls

Now that's a pessimist!

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 10, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Problem with the Cubby matchups:
Jacque Jones is the only lefty hitter on their team.
TLR won't like that matchup at all.  Frankly, neither will I.

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 9:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The first thing I noticed
with your first table was that Keisler got 2 starts vs. the Cubs -- don't like the looks of that.  But I think that option #2 isn't very realistic.  There's no way Tony pushes Wainwright, Looper, Reyes, and Wells any more than is necessary since none pitched more than a half season in the bigs last year.  I know it doesn't mean any of them on short rest, but it still will increase their workloads by adding a start or 2 over the course of the year and we're in trouble if they run out of gas in August.

Option #3 seems like a pretty good option but I doubt Tony would use it b/c it seems to leave our bullpen short-handed in the middle of a period in which we play 10 games in 10 days.  I guess you could send Keisler down after his start and call Jimenez or Falkenborg up until the start on 4/30 when you make a choice between Keisler or Thompson as the starter -- you could send down the RP you called up and recall Keisler.  But to me that creates 2 more issues for the staff -- the unknown of having Thompson start and the unknown of having Jimenez or Falkenborg relieve.  It may be the best course of action but I think Tony will stick w/ option #1.

by chuckb on Apr 10, 2007 9:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we could get
that fat kid from Aruba to fill in.  He didn't look too good against the Yanks last night. :)

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 9:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I only want the fat guy
from aruba when I am gonna get in a fight with a judge.....Although it was nice to see TLR learned something in the "fat boy's" time here.

by gonzostl on Apr 10, 2007 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could however
Go for a California stoner.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Apr 10, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

CA stoner
are you sure about that? he just gave up a homer to jd drew...
I'm going to my happy place now.

by RosevilleRedbird on Apr 10, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He had like a 7 ERA before he came over last year
The more he sucks, the more he'll realize where he should be.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Apr 10, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Losing carpenter for 5 games...
The cards were 20-12 last year when Carpenter was the starter, a nifty .625 winning percentage.

Now... looking around for a replacement starter... let's use Ponson!  Cards were 5-9 when he started, a pathetic .357.

Now, let's assume carp misses 5 starts, assuming that the replacement starter(s) work similar to Ponson did, we will win 1.4 fewer games using the replacement starter.  No big deal.  Okay well losing your ace is a big deal, but its not end-of-the world... it's not like we're suddenly the cubs or anything.

by redbird2006in on Apr 10, 2007 10:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gut check
This is the kind of situation where you need strong leadership from LaRussa/Duncan - and your clubhouse leaders (Edmonds et al).  Teams with strong character figure out how to survive (see 2006 Cards - by the skin of their teeth) or even thrive (see your examples above, lboros - I might add the 2002 Cards to the list after losing DK).

Losing Carp for any period of time is a huge hit.  But if the rest of the guys (especially you, offense - are you listening?) step up this team will be ok.  We are blessed to be in a weak division where no one should run away from us.

Sure, Carp (and Instant Breakfast, to be fair - never thought I'd be saying that) is a loss.  But losing meaningful time from Pujols, Mulder, Edmonds, Eckstein, Izzy - not to mention Marquis falling off the planet and Rolen disappearing in September - didn't eliminate us last year.  We may not thrive, but I don't see a TLR-led team folding.  This is the kind of challenge that I think Tony secretly loves - hopefully "Genius Tony" shows up a lot more than "Crazy Tony."

by wildman on Apr 10, 2007 11:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It stinks
that Carp is on the DL, but hey; that's life. Several years ago, I learned that it was useless for me to worry about stuff I have no control over. He'll be back when he gets back, and in the meantime I'll still be rooting for the boys to kick every other team's ass; just as I do every other day.

by cardsrul on Apr 10, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wit and wisdom
Ain't no sense worrying: If you have no control over something, ain't no sense worrying about it--you have no control over it anyway. If you do have control, why worry? So either way, there ain't no sense worrying.

--Mickey Rivers, baseball philosopher

by Youneverknow on Apr 10, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Insurance
Do the Cardinals have any type of Insurance on Carp's contract?
2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Apr 10, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm guessing but I don't think
you can get insurance for contracts over 3 years.  I think.

by sdrone on Apr 10, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK...
But can the first three years of the contract be covered?
2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Apr 10, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how long was jeff bagwell's?
i remember the 'stros getting insurance on that.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Possible Pitchers
I was wondering if there was any possibility that we could see Troy Cate as a fill in starter if Carp is out for a while.  Since it is early, wouldn't it be worth a shot to see what he can do (based on what he did over the winter)?  Any feasability to this happening? I'm not even sure where he is right now.

by Molina4MVP on Apr 10, 2007 11:39 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How desperate are the Cardinals?
Pitchers currently without homes:
Jose Lima
Ismael Valdez
Paul Wilson
Pedro Astacio

and of course

Roger 'big money' Clemens.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 10, 2007 11:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not gonna happen
The only one that would be better than a double or triple A guy is Clemens and that simply isn't going to happen.

I'd say they may try to swing a trade for Kim, but after Carp went on the DL, I guarantee the asking price doubled.

by JShell73 on Apr 10, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm pretty sure
that you get a chance before the first four.  maybe they hold open tryouts ala the philadelphia eagles/vince papalae story.

by sdesserman on Apr 10, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i know what they could do
they could teach Jrod to pitch and in off days he could play the OF..thus filling two needs and making everyone happy...

oh and how long b4 we here Ankiel mentioned in the rotation? the "best stuff in camp" thing that was posted about himin ST makes me think the rumors will start

Kenny is a "dirt" bag?

by punchinjudy on Apr 10, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was my solution
when we had 4 good OF's -- Lankford, Gilkey, Jordan, and Whiten but could only play 3.  I thought that, since our pitching was so bad anyway, we may as well pitch one of them every 4 days and get the extra bat in the lineup.

by chuckb on Apr 10, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe its just me
but i'm not that worried about missing carp for a while. wells wainwright and looper seem capable of number 2 stuff when they are on their games, reyes is ok as a number 4 and throw in a one of our young arms from AAA for a couple starts and things aren't too bad. plus carpenter comes back fresh with hopefully a live are for the end of the season. all in all i don't think this is terrible situation at all.

by jojo5492 on Apr 10, 2007 12:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
I think we can survive without him. It's our bats I'm worried about.

by Carps on Apr 10, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa there.
Methinks it's a bit early to be mentioning "Looper" and "#2 starter" in the same sentence.  Two quality starts does not a #2 make.

I'm as pleased as anyone with his recent win, but let's please remember that it was against the Pirates.  His ERA was 4.50 after his start against the Mets, which is probably a much more realistic gauge of his true effectiveness than this past start against the Pirates.

Now, if we are in mid-May with his ERA still at or below 3.00, then the "#2 Starter" annointing ceremonies can commence (complete with flashy gold stitching around his uniform number).  Until then...it's still "The Grand Experiment".

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 10, 2007 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And your point is?
My post stated that Looper's ERA after his first start against the Mets was 4.50.  Not that it was his current ERA. :-)

It's also why I said if his ERA is still below 3.00 come mid-May, then we can start relying on him as something other than an experimental starter.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 10, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ya know
a 4.5 ERA last year for a starter would have made him our third-best pitcher, and our second best pitcher from opening day to 5 SEP.

I'm pretty excited about this year, despite carp's injury...

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Apr 10, 2007 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
Seeing as how 4.50 is roughly equal to last year's league average, I'd be ecstatic with Looper ending the season with a 4.50.  It's just that I think it's way too early right now to judge his true effectiveness.

So am I now the only one who thinks it's still too soon to declare The Grand Experiment a glowing success?

I'm as optimistic about Looper's ST and first 2 starts as everyone else, but it appears everyone is simply throwing caution (and a valid statistical sample) to the wind and declaring him our de facto #2...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Apr 10, 2007 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the pen
My biggest worry is the impact this will have on the bullpen. Carp was an inning eater. Looper, Wainwright and Wells have been in their most recent starts. Can they keep this up? If not, no matter how many games the Cards win in April and May, the 'pen will be gassed come September and October when it matters most.

by 10worldchamps on Apr 10, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not a great update
Let's wait 2 weeks and then do surgery which means 6 more?  It's probably the prudent option as we don't want to do surgery if it's not necessary but that means 2 months.  It's still better than him coming back and altering his mechanics and pitching poorly or hurting something else or both.

by chuckb on Apr 10, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well now that
 you've spelled out all the options...which is the best?

I don't like any of the options, really.

Carp's out awhile.  Maybe until the ASB - esp. if he gets surgery, which IMO, is the probable end result here.

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bold prediction
no matter how much time carp misses - even if he doesn't play again until then - the 2007 rotation will have a better era at the all-star break than the 2006 rotation did.

obviously, losing carp is a hit, but the bigger hits need to come from the offense. (sorry, that was awful. i'm starting a new paragraph in shame.)

anyway, the point is, the offense will be what drives the success/failure of this team. the pitching will be good enough to get it done, even without carp. and with carp as the ace not only this year, but throughout the length of that contract, i'd really rather do whatever needs to get done to make sure he's really healthy than have him come back in four weeks as opposed to 12.

I agree with Silent Bob - with only Jones as a lefty in the Cubs lineup, I don't like Keisler facing them at all; this also counts Narveson out, and Hawksworth did poorly in his first start. Um, Thompson? ... Bullpen game?

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 12:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

don't rule out matt ginter
groundball-type pitcher, tough on right-handers.

by lboros on Apr 10, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't Forget...
Mulder is coming back, healthy, at the ASB.  That'll help the team immensely if he can return to good form.
Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Apr 10, 2007 1:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think
you might be the only one who belives that.

by JMedwick on Apr 10, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ASB = optimistic
but two months of Mulder isn't unrealistic. And "if" he comes back and can pitch effectively is a big "if," but even if he can give us 65 innings of 4.60 ERA, that's worth something.

PECOTA, for what it's worth, has him at 18 starts, 100 IP, 4.66 ERA.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Projections
They have a correlation of .500 on all pitchers, I can't imagine it's anywhere near accurate on injury returners.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Apr 10, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the black hole that is RF
has anyone heard anything on Juan's statis?  
Last I heard he was still in Jupiter.  I haven't heard any results or info about his progress.

(you know things are bad in the OF when we are wanting Juan in there)

can we cut So yet??

by Stan and Slaughter on Apr 10, 2007 1:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Forget about him
Does he strike you as the kinda guy to come back early or come back strong?

by sdrone on Apr 10, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true but
he can't be any worse then the So/Wilson/Skip combo.

by Stan and Slaughter on Apr 10, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keisler project
I don't think he's gonna start against the cubz.  I think scenario #2 is the strongest and you can probably make a case for Keisler starting against Mil instead of Thompson also because Mil power is mostly left-handed
Unless you use local guides, you cannot get the advantages of the land. <Master Sun> The Art of War

by MaskedMan on Apr 10, 2007 1:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pittsburgh weather forecast....
I just checked the weather in Pittsburgh, tonight's game won't be a problem but there is a 90% chance of rain/snow/sleet tomorrow. It may be interesting to see what that does to the projected rotation.
"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on Apr 10, 2007 2:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

unfortunately, a rainout
on wednesday doesn't really help --- because there's already a scheduled off-day on thursday. the cards need a rainout on their 5-game homestand vs milwaukee and pittsburgh; that would allow them to skip the #5's turn an additional time.

but it necessitate an extra start somewhere down the road, and that starter is likely to be a replacement player called up from memphis or the bullpen . . . . . so it all comes out in the wash.

by lboros on Apr 10, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Idea I've been kicking around
Cardinals pitchers and potential free agents are all over-valued on account of the cardinals having a higher "replacement level" for starting pitchers.  

As long as Duncan takes 5.50 era pitchers and turns them to 4.80 guys, it hurts the valuation of any pitchers better than that, whether on the team or not.  

Weaver's/Suppan's expected value over replacement probably didn't approached what they were paid, but their expected value over duncan replacement player didn't come close.  

So losing free agents (AJ, Schmidty) or losing Aces (Carpenter) has a marginally lower detrimental effect because all pitchers have a lower VODRP than they do VORP.  

Carpenters pitched a ton of innings over the last two years, anyway.  Maybe some rest now is a blessing in disguise.  

If carpenter sits for 1 or 2 months, we'll be fine!  The lost VODRP isn't as bad as the lost VORP we are all worrying about.  

by Jonathan23 on Apr 10, 2007 2:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

let's go houston!
i really hope they hang, like, 9 ER on betty in 3 2/3.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 2:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually two former Cardinals are pitching
Weaver vs Boston..

Let the first two batters up and now Papi is batting..

by birdsonthehat on Apr 10, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

betty
Nice game Jason. He might do more for the Cardinals dressed in blue

by birdsonthehat on Apr 10, 2007 2:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Betty
Has given up 3 runs so far in the top of the first only getting one out.

by gonzostl on Apr 10, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am sure
that ten other people are writing this right now, but Marquis has let up 3 in the first and still only one out.
"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on Apr 10, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

love it
and the 2-run double was over soriano's head.

love it love it love it love it

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Chicago Cub Fans...
meet Betty, the real Jason Marquis. Guess the honeymoon is over. Can't say we didn't warn yas.

by rockin redbird on Apr 10, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HAHAHAHAHA
below are the last five comments on bleedcubbieblue:

"wake me when this one is over. groundhog day? this is starting to look like groundhog year."

"THIS is the Jason Marquis National League hitters know and love so much.  Ugh."

"It's over... The season is lost. Don't get your hopes up."

"we need to scored at least one in the first
if we dont.. im turning off gameday"

"Is it too early....to start the "Pie for Dontrelle" talk?"

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 2:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes!
and this is exactly why betty is suited for the Cub fans.  when he's bad, he's really bad.  The cub fans are just as bipolar and fatalistic as betty.
"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Apr 10, 2007 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weavers
in worse shape right now.
Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on Apr 10, 2007 2:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i wish no ill will on jeff weaver
or on the seattle mariners. i will take no delight in their misfortunes.

the same cannot be said of either jason marquis or the chicago cubs.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anybody
who leaves a good situation for an extra million or so deserves what's comin. How can you honestly decide to go back to the AL-WEST where you got lit up in the first place? Money baby! What I read from him is that instead of having some success, he'd rather cash in.
Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on Apr 10, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

gave up 4
in the 1st.
Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on Apr 10, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weaver...
Anyone watching that game?

4 Runs in the First..

Maybe the Cardinals can pick him up again this year.

by birdsonthehat on Apr 10, 2007 2:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dream Weaver...
is wishing for Dave Duncan right about now.  Or at least wishing he was back in the NL.

by raisin on Apr 10, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seven runs in the first
for Marquis in Weaver combined. Walt, you are a genius. Obviously getting rid of Marquis was a no-brainer, but tricking the Cubs into throwing a bunch of money at him was brilliant. And I was for resigning Weaver, but if he wanted to run for the money again, he was going to get what he bargained for.
The outfield is deep and playing him straight-away and the infield is the same except first, second, third and short are playing him to pull. -- Mike Shannon

by MUTiger on Apr 10, 2007 2:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Will Carroll is reading my mind
And it's a sincere concern

I'd rather them do the surgery than try and tinker with it other ways.  I know surgery isn't a guaranteed fix but this doesn't seem like something that can be rehab'd away with non-surgical options.

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on Apr 10, 2007 2:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i don't know nearly enough
to say anything informed, everything i know i've learned from carroll, larry and silent bob (which sounds like the baseball nerd's three stooges). but if it's a question of shutting him down for two months and getting the surgery done, as opposed to letting it rest for however long and then having to deal with a nagging injury for however long, the surgery certainly sounds like the best option to me.

they just signed the guy to a huge long-term deal. they can't turn him into mulder by trying to PT him through something that really calls for surgery.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the "go stupid approach"
How they are dealing with Carp (which is the exact same approach used with Mulder pre-surgery) isn't really a go slow approach at all as professed by TLR.  The brain trust is risking further damage to Carp when they eventually throw him back out there after rest rather than biting the bullet and getting his elbow scoped now.  Unless I hear it from a orthopedic surgeon, I find it very hard to believe that the bone chips are going to miraculously migrate out of his elbow through rest.  Sure surgery might not be successful ... nothing in life is guaranteed.  But letting a damaged Carp back out onto the mound comes with even more risk.  It's the Dr. George Paletta "go stupid" approach.

by jjray on Apr 10, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...to a point.
I think that Mulder's case was hard to diagnose - MRI's aren't as reliable in the shoulder.  Plus Mulder had no complaints of pain.  

Carp's got a definitive diagnosis.  The only other option I could see is that if Carp went on his own to go see James Andrews in Birmingham for a second opinion.  

That might be what'd I'd do if I was him.

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

second opinion
I'd be all for a 2nd opinion.  With the investment the club has in Carp and the mistakes made with the Mulder and Rolen injuries, it makes all the sense in the world.

by jjray on Apr 10, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes azru, i think
carroll is in agreement w/ you. given what happened with mulder last year, i think you are right --- just scope the @#$@#$% thing and get it fixed. take the long-range view; if it costs you some games in the near term, oh bleepin' well.

by lboros on Apr 10, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In part I agree
however this problem will not go away. (See Isringhausen, Jason) Arthritis doesn't "go away" by surgery.
Jimscobert Purolmonds - MV3

by OKCardsfan on Apr 10, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cut Carp

Get it over with. Carp out for 2 months is better than not-healthy Carp.

On another topic, isn't it funny how the Cubbie fans are already to say their season is over because their dud starters have given them 2 bad starts, and we're possibly losing our ace for what could be half the season, and we still have faith?

It's good to be a Cards fan.

by glamberson on Apr 10, 2007 3:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Decimated Rotation
Can't guess what the impact of losing Carp will be.  But it sure is fun watching both of our ex starters that caused our rotation to be in a "shambles", proving that we are still better without them.
Weaver's era after the first was at 45.00, and since he only gave up 3 more in the second, it went down to a more reasonable 31.50!!  Having JD Drew contribute with a SF and 2 run hr was amusing too.
I say just bring up the young hurlers, and let's see if one sticks.  And let'em throw without teaching them about seams.  One of them has the magic to be a big story, letting carp come back easy, and mulder taking the season off.  We just have to find out which one.
Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Apr 10, 2007 3:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Even without Carp,
the starting rotation is not the weakest part of the team.  The lineup, particularly the men in the outfield, needs to be more productive.

To continue demonstrating glamberson's point about optimism, I still think things will work out, as long as "working out" means staying near .500 and getting hot for a month or two later in the year.

by TMiles on Apr 10, 2007 3:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

adam everett is AWFUL
and it's a good thing for jason marquis. if the astros had anything at all from their 6-9 spots (combined 0-9 with 1 BB), this game would be a lot worse than 4-0.

so happy.

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

everett does struggle offensively...
but he is the best defensive SS in the league. period.  I think that fact is lost on a lot of people.

Actually - not unlike our catcher last year.

"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Apr 10, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cant have an OBP/OPS sinkhole at SS anymore
especially when your catcher (Ausmus) is also a sinkhole.

He's a great defensive SS.  But he's basically worthless at the plate.

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, which is
what bugs me about TLR's lineups far too often ... the toleration of 2 and often 3 sinkholes in the lineup.

And it's what bugs me about the Cardinal attitude about catchers, i.e., that it doesn't matter how badly they hit. During the Matheny years, it seemed like they literally stopped even trying to upgrade the offense at that position.  That's not a slam against Matheny or Molina, but our catchers have been killing our lineup for 6-7 years now.

Credit where due, however: Everett did hit the GW HR yesterday to beat the Cubbies.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 10, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its hard to put a value on catchers' defense
as well as handling pitchers and limiting SB's.  But I think that our team's record with Matheny and Molina speaks for itself.

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless you can find an Ivan Rodriguez
I don't really mind having a Molina/Matheny type behind the plate.

by Valatan on Apr 10, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've really liked
having Matheny and Molina behind the plate. And I suspectthat Yadi has a chance to become a much better hitter than Matheny did.

by Don Zero on Apr 10, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everett is beyond great at SS
and they could afford to handle him but they also insist on Brad Ausmus behind the plate who is equally bad.  

His range at SS is really just phenomenal  Although it would be nice to have a mix of OPS and good defense, if you have to pick a cipher for your lineup Everett is a good choice.

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on Apr 10, 2007 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Cesar Izturis was suppposed to
be a pretty good defensive shortstop too, but he's having a rough day for the Cubbies - three errors, including two on consecutive plays (amazingly, that didn't cost them a run).

by BTown Birds fan on Apr 10, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard
that his defense and speed have declined in recent years.

I probably heard that from Cubs broadcasters on WGN or Comcast Sports Net, who also say that the Cardinals haven't improved, like the Cubs have, by signing a pitcher that St. Louis cut.

by Don Zero on Apr 10, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Marquis
He is over 90 pitches through five with roughly a 1:1 Ball-to-Strike ratio.

No surprise to Cardinal fans.

by bgh on Apr 10, 2007 3:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Marquis Quality
So he mows them down second time through, gets to the 5th with a chance to record a "quality start" of all things.  Then turns some magic to give up just one run on three walks, a single , and an error.
Nonetheless, his era is still better than Zambrano, Eyre, Howry, Guzman, & Miller so he shouldn't being getting too much grief as he heads to the bench.  Half his pitches were strikes, and he got his ground-outs too.  Looks like they got what they paid for!

As long as Marquis keeps this up, Carp can take his time, and we should still have the cubbies in the rear mirror.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Apr 10, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Carp is to miss 2 months with surgery
If this offense was so putrid, imagine how scary our rotation would be with healthy Carpenter, Mulder, Wells, Wainwright and Reyes for the stretch run.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 10, 2007 4:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm off to the game now
may the ....what's this guy's name again?  era begin!
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 10, 2007 4:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

BCB posters are very angry
and i am laughing harder and harder. they're like a community full of that german kid with the cub subtitles.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 4:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Go over to A League of Her Own for this gem...
.... "I think we should extend passover...

and "pass over" Marquis's spot in the rotation this week. I believe I saw ram's blood on his doorpost."

by: Thelonious Drunk @ Tue Apr 10, 2007  

by Ignatius J Reilly on Apr 10, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if Lidge is out as closer
It's a save situation now and they left wheeler in the game.

by Pujols4Pres on Apr 10, 2007 4:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

this was already announced
all the sites have had it over the last day or so, you can find the story at mlb.com, espn, whatever.
I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Apr 10, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, I've been busy
As you can tell :-)

by Pujols4Pres on Apr 10, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and now...
Wheeler is blowing it!
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Apr 10, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the 87 team lost john tudor to a broken leg . . .
Every time I think of that game and that injury I think very unkind thoughts about Barry Lyons.  I'd never wished for an opposing team's player to be injured before, or since, but for the rest of the '87 season, if I saw a Mets game on TV, I'd want someone to chase a foul ball into their dugout just to plow into Lyons' legs and see how he liked it.

And no, I'm not bitter.  :-)  Tudor probably is, though.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Apr 10, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wasn't that also the only team
to get to the world series with no pitcher winning more than 12 games?

by enoscountry on Apr 10, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hello fellow Cardinal Fans...
I am a long-time follower of VEB who finally decided to get a screen name and start posting.  This being my first post, I wanted to say hello to everyone and express how much I love the site.  I had a small blog of my own during the 2003 season before I simply grew too busy and too disillusioned with the pitching staff (Brett Tomko, aaaahh!) and stopped writing.  Larry does an incredible job with this site and has just made it that much better by allowing others such as erik and valatan to post on the main page, and bring their own unique insights to VEB.  I look forward to living and dying with every pitch and dsicussing baseball with all of you all season long.

by moser34 on Apr 10, 2007 5:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Welcome moser
stop by in the game threads sometime

by Valatan on Apr 10, 2007 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen scratched
upper back spasms, per Stlcardinals.com

by silent_bob on Apr 10, 2007 5:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So who plays 3rd Base?
If Speezer is out with a case of bad burritos, who backs up Rolen?  Albert, Jimmy at first?  Who is #3 on the depth chart for 3rd base?
Jimmy steps in to lead off the bottom half of the inning... with nobody on base... It could happen... just not tonight.

by Hollywood15 on Apr 10, 2007 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just posted on the game thread
Spiezo is playing though he doesn't feel well.

by OCCardsFan on Apr 10, 2007 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aaron Miles, I guess
He's played at least parts of 28 games there over his career, including 2 1/3 innings last season for the Cardinals.

by liam on Apr 10, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it just me...
Or are there some others that are optimistic about Yads as a hitter?  I understand his stats are rough, dare we say brutal (to date), but watching him from the post-season, thru spring, to now; I feel like his approach is WAY better and he can only improve.

by mattysha on Apr 10, 2007 5:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yadi keeps improving at the dish
He had a great spring last year, and I was hopefull for a breakout year.  he changed his stance all season, was somehow efficient with risp picking up a good share of rbi's.  his breakout didn't come until october, and was most welcome.  He had another good spring, and I'm sure he's on for his best season, and then keeps getting better for several more seasons.
Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Apr 10, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

Cbs_fantasy_baseball_promo

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Photo_29_small
Rich Hill still has two arms for some reason.
Cardinals_spring_baseball_small
2010: A Baseball Odyssey
Pcb_sunset_web_small
What does the BA Top 100 tell us?

Recent FanPosts

74591_missouri_state_small
(Another) Fantasy League
Images_small
Wednesday Morning Fun Fact
Cardinal70-48_small
2010 Cardinal Approval Ratings
Lkkn__2__small
 " Baseball fantasy or reality "
Lkkn__2__small
Es el Busch Stadium amigo de los Pitchers o lo es HOK SPORT ?
Ken_red_small
Musings on Fantasy Baseball or Why You Should Join the TGBL
61736post_foto_small
Unofficial Albert's new officially unofficial nickname thread

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Images_small azruavatar

Trigun_001_small the red baron

Adam1_small chuckb