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community projection results: yadi and izzy

you can check out chris carpenter's changeup-in-progress today on mlb.tv; the cardinals are playing the orioles. here's the gameday link. Update [2007-3-6 13:44:13 by lboros]: i got bad info; the game's not on tv, but you can hear it via mlb audio. [end update]

a few other items:

  • The Hardball Times is putting out its first preseason preview --- a companion to the Hardball Times Annual, with all-new content. ordering information is here. the meat of the book consists of 3-year projections for current players (including top minor leaguers) and team-by-team previews --- quick-hiting capsules formatted along the lines of bill james' old "team in a box" summaries. i wrote the st louis preview; here's a teaser:
    Most Underrated Player: Albert Pujols. You want to talk intangibles and situational intelligence? Pujols ended a close game last year with a cross-diamond peg to nab a baserunner who'd strayed half a step past third base. He ended another by catching a trailing runner napping and signaling his catcher for a pickoff throw. He wins not just with his hitting but also with his fielding, throwing, baserunning, and his tremendous will. How did he not win the MVP? Either he's underappreciated, or his year-in, year-out greatness has gotten dull. No peaks, no valleys; nothing bores people like sameness.
  • two new community projection threads are up: encarnacion and carpenter. we'll look at those thurs or friday.
  • at least one guy thinks anthony reyes could contend for the cy young award.
  • also, i thought you'd all get a kick out of this: who knew how very much george orwell hated the cubs?
before i unveil the community's projection of molina, i want to refer back to VEB's yadi projection for 2006. toward the end of that post, there's a comparison drawn between yadi and mike scioscia, the ex-dodger catcher and current angels manager. i won't rehash all the details of that comp (click the link to see the basis for it), but i can report that one year further into molina's career, he's still tracking scioscia. their age-23 seasons:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG
molina 2006 417 29 90 26 0 6 49 26 | .216 .274 .321
scioscia 1982 365 31 80 11 1 5 38 44 | .219 .302 .296

what did sciosia do as a 24-year-old? missed the whole year after a collision at the plate. but from age 25 forward he was about a league-average run producer (as measured by OPS+) and a superlative defensive catcher. so if molina continues to follow scioscia's career trajectory, he'll mature ino a pretty valuable player. like yadi, scioscia won his first world champ'ship young (age 22); he won another at age 29, and played on three more division winners.

for whatever that's worth.

as long as we're drawing comparisons, molina's top comps at Baseball Prospectus both evolved into fine hitters, ramon hernandez (23 homers, 91 rbi for the orioles last year) and the royals' mike sweeney, whose peak OPS surpassed .900. . . . i'd be happy enough to see molina nose past .700, but perhaps it won't be a vain hope. another good hitter, the cubs' michael barrett, is molina's #4 comp per BP. barrett's age-23 season (.214 / .277 / .288) was very close to molina's (.216 / .274 / .321); he improved to .250 / .289 / .367 at age 24 and then made major breakthroughs at ages 25 (.263 / .332 / .418) and 27 (.287 / .337 / .489). scioscia is on the BP list at #12, by the way.

with all these cheery comparisons in our heads, let's move now to the numbers. for the 2d consecutive year, every single respondent in our exercise predicts an offensive improvement for molina. it's less noteworthy this season, i suppose, in that molina truly can go nowhere but up after last year. . . . . so here are the numbers, in descending OPS order:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG
CCH 420 49 112 24 0 10 56 32 | .267 .319 .396
CHONE 403 44 103 23 0  8 44 31 | .256 .318 .372
VEB 431 39 111 20 0 10 57 33 | .258 .311 .374
Marcel 427 42 107 25 0  9 55 31 | .251 .307 .372
Shandler 440 37 110 22 0  9 52 31 | .250 .299 .361
PECOTA 312 31  78 19 0  5 36 23 | .250 .301 .359
Bill James 487 41 119 27 0  8 63 33 | .244 .298 .349
ZIPS 423 34  98 21 0  8 53 24 | .232 .279 .338

the hometown forecasts (VEB and CCH) are super sunny, perhaps unrealistically so. but at least two of the "objective" ones (Marcel and CHONE) are nearly as optimistic as we are, and the nearly identical shandler / PECOTA / james projections aren't all that far off from the VEB line --- we foresee 2 or 3 more homers, but in all other respects our numbers match theirs. here's the aggregate line:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG
418 38 104 23 0  8 51 29 | .248 .298 .360

with his glove, and at his price, i'd take it.

isringhausen is supposed to throw BP to live hitters today. BP's will carroll had this comment in his preseason health report:

Isringhausen is coming back from hip surgery, but don't think he's another Bo Jackson just yet. It wasn't nearly that serious; Izzy had his hip scraped down rather than replaced. Things have looked good so far in camp, and the moves of Braden Looper and Adam Wainwright to the rotation tell you that the Cards are sure that their closer will be ready.
his top comp at BP is none other than don larsen, author of the postseason's only no-hitter / perfect game. apropos of absolutely nothing: were any of you aware that larsen pitched against the yankees in the world series just six years later? i had no idea until just now. larsen pitched 3 games in relief for the giants in the '62 classic and picked up the win in game 4, knotting the series at 2-2. the yanks won in 7. . . . .

so anyway, back to izzy. as you look at the projections, focus on one number: hr allowed. last year, 6 of his 10 blown saves came on home runs. he allowed one homer per 25 batters faced in 2006; his average coming into the season was one homer per 60 batters faced. and that's the entire story: if he keeps the ball in the park this year, he'll be ok. do we think he can do it? the numbers, ordered by ascending ERA:

IP H BB SO HR SV ERA WHIP
CCH 59 45 27 56  5 36 2.92 1.220
VEB 55 44 25 50  5 33 3.03 1.255
Bill James 63 50 28 57  5 32 3.29 1.238
PECOTA 53 45 26 44  5 21 3.49 1.340
ZIPS 61 50 30 56  6 n/a 3.54 1.311
CHONE 62 56 31 52  6 n/a 3.77 1.403
Marcel 60 54 28 49  7 26 3.90 1.367
Shandler 28 n/a n/a 23  3 10 4.16 1.500

again, look at those hr totals --- it's agreed by all the savants that izzy will recover his low hr rates. the aggregate projection puts him at 0.82 hr per 9 innings; his career avg is 0.71 hr/9. here's the full aggregate line, alongside his 2006 numbers:

IP H BB SO HR SV ERA WHIP
proj 07 55 47 26 47  5 20 3.57 1.332
actual 06 58 47 38 52 10 20 3.57 1.457

so here's what i don't get --- the aggregate projection has izzy cutting his walks by 12 and his homers by 5 over last season, while holding the line (mostly) on hits/9 and strikeouts/9 . . . . but posting the same era as last year? huh. our projected peripherals are pretty similar to izzy's 2005 line ---- higher h/9, but all the other numbers line up. compare, with an eye toward the era:

IP H BB SO HR SV ERA WHIP
proj 07 55 47 26 47  5 20 3.57 1.332
actual 05 59 43 27 51  4 39 2.14 1.186

if izzy does, indeed, post the components we've projected for him, i reckon his era would end up in the low 3s or high 2s. i guess the era isn't really at issue here, anyway; as long as the hrs don't fly out of the park, izzy will convert the saves.

as a group, we project jason to miss the first 18 games of the season, which would place his return on april 22 at wrigley vs the cubs.

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question on yadi projections
To Larry or someone else who knows: To what extent do the various projection systems take the postseason into account?  It seems to me each of Yadi's postseason ABs should count at least as much as each of his regular season ABs in terms of telling us what he might do next year.

According to my back-of-the-hand calculations, if you add in Yadi's 59 post-season plate appearances, his OBP rises from .595 to about .630. Still not great, but a significant improvement, especially for a player so young. If the projection systems don't take those ABs into account, I'd say they're artificially lowballing him.

Love the Pujols comment, by the way, Larry. Dead on.

by DCGreg on Mar 6, 2007 9:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

thanks greg
i truly believe pujols is underappreciated. most fans (and many baseball writers) have no idea what a complete player he is. they just know he can slug.

re postseason at-bats: i don't believe those are counted by the projection systems. i couldn't answer you why. i suppose one might argue that, since most postseason innings are thrown by the best pitchers from the best pitching staffs, postseason stats don't reliably predict regular-season performance --- ie, for most hitters the postseason ###s would tend to diminish their overall stats, hence diminish their projections for the subsequent season.

but that's just a guess.

and, of course, in molina's case this consideration wouldn't apply, since he did his best hitting against playoff pitchers. that was true both in '05 and in '06.

by lboros on Mar 6, 2007 10:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
but he's considered the best player in the game across the board, at least from what i hear. how much more appreciated can you be? they talk about him in the same conversation with dimaggio and mays. does he already need to be called the best ever in order to not be underappreciated? once a person gets as good as pujols, is there any way that he or she can not be underappreciated?
Evident The Wash.

by brock on Mar 6, 2007 10:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

everyone appreciates him
as a great hitter. i think that's what you're referring to.

his peers (who vote on the gold gloves) appreciate that he can field.

but my point is that most people don't look beyond the gaudy batting stats; they recognize that form of albert's greatness, but miss other forms of it.

by lboros on Mar 6, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
i'm just going by my sense, which is admittedly a bit less than scientific, but his epithet seems to be "swift-footed albert, the greatest player on the planet."
Evident The Wash.

by brock on Mar 6, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who's "they"?
The same writers who inexplicably voted for Howard instead?

I'm sure many people get it, but I agree that many people still don't.

by themang on Mar 6, 2007 11:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

postseason
Most projection results don't incorporate postseason results because the quality-of-competition issues, and also because it makes theoretical sense to use regular season performance to project regular season performances.

Fortunately most systems will use at least three or more years of performance information (including minor league seasons), so a handful of postseason at bats is unlikely to make a meaningful difference anyway.

by ChrisConstancio on Mar 6, 2007 10:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that system
may well make sense in the large majority of cases, but it doesn't with a guy like Molina, who has seen almost 10 percent of his major league plate appearances in the postseason and who has hit markedly better in October than in the regular season (.809 OPS vs. .653).  

Barring some reason to think that he should be a better hitter against the higher-quality pitching in the postseason -- or that he derives some benefit from having Thom Brennaman or Joe Buck in the house -- I think one has to give Yadi a bit of a bump-up.

by DCGreg on Mar 6, 2007 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Contact hitters
Someone had mentioned that put-it-in-play hitters like Yadier and Taguchi really cut down their swings in pressure situations, similar to postseason play. This kills their isolated power but their average skyrockets.

It seems to be based on the idea that they are willing and able to foul away breaking pitches, then put a solid stroke on fastballs. Sometimes that leads to game-winning homers against the Mets in the NLCS, sometimes just a solid basehit to drive in two in a meaningless game in May.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Mar 6, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To get right to it with Izzy
I'd pay cash money for him to do his first appearance at Wrigley and strike out Soriano.

by sdrone on Mar 6, 2007 10:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Izzy and Homers
I did a quick check of batting by pitchers prior to last season. Among hurlers that had hit at least 2 HRs in their careers, Jason was one of five who had surrendered long balls at lower rate (AB per HR) than they had hit them (or at least close enough to be interesting). The others: Mike Hampton, Brad Hennessey, Joe Nathan, & Guillermo Mota (nearly a 3-to-1 ratio).

Also, Izzy was one of 14 pitchers with at least 100 career ABs with a lifetime AVG of .200 or better. We had three of them last year (Izzy, Betty & Snappah), plus Woody from a couple years ago.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Mar 6, 2007 11:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Obviously
It's Ankiel's destiny to return to the majors at this point.

by DanUpBaby on Mar 6, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just to let everyone know
the Gameday link above doesn't work because Internet Explorer puts in code for spaces in the tag.  just click on the link, and then in the title bar delete the '%20' at the beginning of each teams name and you'll be set.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 6, 2007 12:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
I was wondering about this.

by Jonathan23 on Mar 6, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

link is now fixed
my bad; i put the spaces in by mistake.

by lboros on Mar 6, 2007 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh, my mistake.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 6, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Traschel apparently being hit hard per Moonman
but right at people.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 6, 2007 1:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wish it was avail
through gameday audio.  Strange it isn't if it's covered.  

I see JRod is in the lineup.  Hope he continues to tear it up this spring.   So far, so good.

by RedbirdRay on Mar 6, 2007 1:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So Tags error
I also kinda hope Tags continues to struggle in the field.  Seems to be his only plus.  Maybe he can play himself off the roster.

by RedbirdRay on Mar 6, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it is availible through gameday audio.
Go to 'Scoreboard' on mlb.com and then click 'Audio' above the Cards linescore.

O's lead 1-0 on a sac fly.  Runner at 3rd.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 6, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome
Thanks for the tip.  

by RedbirdRay on Mar 6, 2007 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Top of 2nd
Preston fly out CF
Rodriguez Walks
Molina single up the middle
Miles RBI single
Ryan pop out
Taguchi pop out to CF
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 6, 2007 1:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Is Gameday
not working for anyone else? I can get audio, but gameday doesn't seem to be working.

by TICY on Mar 6, 2007 1:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Concern re: Kinney
Bernie mentioned there is concern he is hurt.
2006 World Champs! Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

by BozCardsFanSF on Mar 6, 2007 2:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Link
In the Pressbox, not much more elaboration on what BozCardsFanSF said above.

by liam on Mar 6, 2007 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Could be trouble if true
w/ Springer aching and Looper and Wainwright in the rotation, that 'pen would thin out quickly w/ Kinney hurt.  Thompson may play his way into the 8th inning role.

by chuckb on Mar 6, 2007 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gameday
Gameday does not work on all browsers, most notably Safari. Try Firefox if you have it.

by Red in Chicago on Mar 6, 2007 4:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What in heck is going on?
Gameday says that the game is "suspended" in extra innings. And Gameday Audio's running a press conference on the Libby trial.

by Don Zero on Mar 6, 2007 4:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Games in the preseason are suspended
I believe, until the two teams meet again (if they do) if it goes extra innings.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 6, 2007 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought they just called it a draw
Is this one of the new spring rule changes that they'll resume the game later on?

by liam on Mar 6, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Molina
I'm glad to see that Yadi's comparables are people like Ramon Hernandez, Scioscia, and Barrett.  If he can turn into a decent offensive C, he immediately becomes the best C in the NL b/c of his defense.  

I still think that, if Bryan Anderson progresses, it will create an interesting dilemma for the team in about 3 years.  If Yadi's still not hitting but a great defensive C, Anderson's good offense looks very good despite so-so defense.  Add in the fact that, at that point, Yadi will be earning the equivalent of $5-6 M and Anderson will be earning the minimum and the organization may make a switch.

I'm also a little concerned about Yadi's weight and body type.  Just a few years ago, Bengie was seen as one of the best defensive C's in the AL.  But he's gotten huge and is now seen as a liability defensively.  Maybe it's b/c he's not in the proper shape or maybe it's genetic.  I can't help but wonder what Yadi will look like in 3-4 years and how effective he'll be behind the dish as a result.  He is 8 years younger than Bengie so maybe it's nothing.  But, if he's fat, hits like Ausmus, and earns $6 M in 3-4 years, I don't care how much the organization loves him, it'll be time for Anderson to take over.

by chuckb on Mar 6, 2007 5:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

whew
there's quite a throwdown over at USSMariner.  Beyond VeB that's one of the team specific blogs that I really like and read daily (which is surprising since I don't give a crap about the Mariners).  

I think they turned off the civility switch for the day though...  It's interesting to see how professionally the other involved parties are responding to it.  Mr. Silver is either a charismatic businessmen or, and I'd like to assume, that he's just a very respectful person.

by azruavatar on Mar 6, 2007 7:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i can't find that dustup
but there's a "retraction" post up there; perhaps the offending post got deleted?

by lboros on Mar 6, 2007 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He (DMZ) says that
he "substantially edited" the post and that it is now "missing a paragraph."  Wow!  

by chuckb on Mar 6, 2007 8:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah they must have taken it down
Synopsis:  There's a comment on a player card that can be (mis?)interpreted as a backhanded insult to someone who wrote a comment for that player in a past BP book--cards are written anonymously but it was revealed that DMZ wrote the comment.  Dave at USSMariner wrote a rather vitriolic and juvenile, imho, response that attacked several members of the BP staff by name.  Nate Silver appeared in the comment thread (a few times) with an incredibly gracious and respectful reply.  The comment thread was out of hand though -- potshots at BP and USSMariner writers alike from the peanut gallery.

It was pretty heated for a written medium.  When I dropped by there, they had posted the retraction and deleted the paragraph but the actual post by Dave was still up.  I guess the threat of legal action or simply the thread's nature to flare up over a heated issue caused them to take it down completely.

I was exceedingly impressed with the way that DMZ and Nate handled the issue.  Everyone else involved, not so much.

by azruavatar on Mar 6, 2007 8:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and games haven't even started yet
and Weaver hasn't had a 3 homer game yet either.

by chuckb on Mar 6, 2007 8:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gooch
Hmmh... any chance So doesn't make the team?  TLR always says he loves competition, can't someone beat him out for the 4/5th outfielder role?  I know it is early but here is a quote from the PD roundup from today's game:

"So Taguchi had another rough day -- the veteran outfielder went 0 for four at the plate, committed a throwing error and was caught stealing. Taguchi is 1 for 16 (.062) this spring."

That's pretty ugly.

by OCCardsFan on Mar 6, 2007 8:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

As Huey Long once said
he'd have to "get caught with a dead girl or a live boy" to not make the team.  That's an exaggeration but I think a poor spring won't be enough for him to not make it.  The person most likely to take his spot would be Schumaker and he has options left.  So if nothing else, he would get extra time to come out of his funk.  

by chuckb on Mar 6, 2007 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that is probably right...
It is a bit disappointing though.  While I don't really have strong feelings about So, I think he was below average last year both offensively and defensively.  I would rather see Skip or Ludwick or even Marrero getting those ABs.  I think So might be in the midst of a steep decline.

by OCCardsFan on Mar 6, 2007 8:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wednesday Gameday Links of interest
12:05 Cards @ Dodgers: Looper vs. Penny
12:05 'Stros @ Gnats: Roy Oswalt vs. Shawn Hill
12:05 Braves @ Tigers: Smoltz vs. Bonderman
2:05 Giants @ Seattle: Matty Mo vs. Felix Hernandez
12:05 Pirates @ Twins: Tony Armas Jr. vs. Boof Bonser
2:05 Athletics @ Cubs: Kennedy vs. Zambrano

by liam on Mar 7, 2007 11:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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