Rule Change - Opinions

by stl3bagger on Mar 14, 2007 4:44 PM EDT

I've had this debate multiple times with many people so I thought I would bring up for this board to talk about.

The rule I think needs to be changed is the batter doesn't get a RBI when hitting into a double play. To me, it just doesn't make sense. First define RBI - Run batted in. To me that means a run scored when that batter was up to bat. It doesn't mean run batted in only when you cause one out. Anytime you can get a run in, its a success. At times it can be a rally killer but 1 run is better than nothing. The arguments I have heard for the rule are that you are hurting your team. How can causing your team to score be hurting your team. I don't care if you hit a homer, you ground into a double play, or the pitcher throws one to the backstop and hits the bull,as long as a run scored during your at bat you deserve a RBI.

Looking forward to hearing other people thoughts on this matter. Feel free to bring up othr rules that should be changed also.

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To add fuel to the argument:

SACRIFICES
10.09
(e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which
(1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or
(2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.

RUNS BATTED IN
10.04
(a) Credit the batter with a run batted in for every run which reaches home base because of the batter's safe hit, sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or fielder's choice; or which is forced over the plate by reason of the batter becoming a runner with the bases full (on a base on balls, or an award of first base for being touched by a pitched ball, or for interference or obstruction).

So let's look at the criteria for a SacFly:
+Less than two outs
+batter hits ball that is caught by outfielder or infielder
+run scores after ball is caught or dropped

Now let's examine the double-play.

-For a runner to score on it, there MUST be less than two outs. Check.
-The ball must be put in play, and must be caught by an infielder to start the double play. Check.

A double play has always been considered first and foremost a Fielder's Choice. It's said in scoring that the Double Play can never be assumed, and by getting the lead out it is automatically a Fielder's Choice.

A Fielder's Choice is considered an RBI.

So, I agree with you. It makes no logical sense to not include a Double Play as part of the RBI scoring.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 14, 2007 6:15 PM EDT reply actions

I Agree

It would be interesting to see how many RBI Howard had last year off of a double play.

A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Mar 14, 2007 9:36 PM EDT reply actions

surprisingly

he only gdp 7 times, so it couldn't have been too many. Makes me wonder how many RBI's he had on strikeouts.

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Mar 15, 2007 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions

THANK YOU

I thought I was the only one complaining that our national league most valuable player struck out 180 times last year, second only to the strick out king, Adam Dunn. Its interesting to see what the MVP voters consider valuable.

by anniep4576 on Mar 16, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions

He hit .313/.425/.659 and 149 RBI

What difference does it make if he had 80 fewer strikeouts, and 80 more lineouts and flyouts? Albert still had a better year, mostly due to park factors, but I really don't get the obsession with the strikeout thing.

by Valatan on Mar 17, 2007 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions

The RBI stat...

implies that the batter actually did something productive to cause a run to score. Burning up outs or standing there while the pitcher throws one to the backstop doesn't constitute doing something productive.

A rule proposal: baseball and its followers should stop counting RBIs. It'll happen. When I was a kid "game winning RBIs" were a fixture in the box score. Now that info cannot be found.

Acquire any Established Major League Starter!

by guayzimi on Mar 14, 2007 11:39 PM EDT reply actions

Productive argument

I see that argument but if the run scores then the batter was productive. A run scored, thus productive. A batter forces a pitcher to make a pitch and if the pitcher throws it wild, the batter caused it to an extent, thus the batter was productive. A double play ball does cause two outs but a run scored. The batter could pop up or strike out and the runners don't move an inch. A double play can at least allow the runner to score, thus being productive.

by stl3bagger on Mar 15, 2007 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions

pitchers

i'm not sure, but isnt it if like a pitcher makes an error, that run is not counted to his ERA? but im not sure about this, though

the cubs spent HOW much to be able to lose again?

by dunc4life on Mar 15, 2007 5:32 PM EDT reply actions

Yes, that's true

and it is a little bit crazy, but then again, so is half of the methodology required to distinguish an earned run from an unearned one

by Valatan on Mar 17, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions

to paraphrase

dodgeball - it's a two for one switcheroo.

where a sac bunt or fly gives up an out for a run, neither gives up two outs for a run. consequently, the suggested value of a run is that it's not worth two outs. at least as far as record-keeping goes.

i don't know that i agree, but it makes some sense...

by sdesserman on Mar 15, 2007 6:06 PM EDT reply actions

Scenerio

Runner on 1st and 3rd, no outs.
Batter hits groundball to 1B.
Runner on 3rd goes on contact.
1B steps on first for the out.
Runner on 1st is caught in rundown between 1st and 2nd.
Instead of coming home with the ball, 1st basemen chases down runner between 1st and 2nd, tagging him after run scores.

You gave up 2 outs for 1 run, should anyone get an RBI?

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 15, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions

just to be consistent

your scenario suggests one of many where the second out is not a direct result of the batted ball, but rather a true fielder's choice.

not a physical, but potentially a mental error that allows the run to score shouldn't be credited as an rbi.

by sdesserman on Mar 15, 2007 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Define RBI

This is what I don't get. RBI stands for run batted in. Did a run score during that batter's at bat? Yes, so how can't it be a RBI.

Take this scenario- The wind is blow out to dead left field at Wrigley at about 40 miles an hour. Miles hits an infield fly that the wind blows into the basket for a homer. Is that not a homer? By definition yes but we all know in normal circumstances it wouldn't and it would hurt the team.

However its a homer, just like everytime a run scores it should be a RBI. How can a run score without a RBI? Someone had to be at bat when a run scored, hence a RBI.

by stl3bagger on Mar 16, 2007 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions

Let me say it one other way

I think my argument wasn't very clear so let me clear it up by syaing this -
Most of the time a double play is not beneficial to a team but if it scores a run, it scores a run thus a RBI. Just like usually infield pop ups are not beneficial to a team but if it gets blow for a homer by the wind, its still a homer. If we make exceptions that certain Runs scored are not RBI then by standards of being consistent cheap wind aided homeruns should not be considered homeruns in the stats.

by stl3bagger on Mar 16, 2007 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions

And a line drive that

the third baseman makes an incredible diving snag on should be considered a triple?

It gets a little crazy pretty fast when you start valuing scenario over standardize-able outcome, stats-wise.

While it's not an intent of the rule, the no-RBI-on-double-play thing is supported by the OBP philosophy -- the batter's true objective is not to make runs happen but to not make outs. And especially not make two.

by jfs on Mar 16, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Why would you consider that a triple?

Make some sort of justification to it.

Again, as is said whenever a player doesn't get an error for not turning the DP, Double Plays are never assumed. With that kind of thinking already in the mind of the scorer, a double play is considered just like any other out. The hitter only made one out, the second out was on the runner.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 16, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions

All I was saying

was that if you start saying wind-aided homeruns ought not to count as homeruns, you open yourself up to a lot of problems.

by jfs on Mar 17, 2007 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions

Fielder's Indifference

I think the assumption is that if the fielding team is able to turn the DP, they could have recorded the out at the plate if it were important to do so. The run scores because the defending team chose 2 outs over the run (by playing at DP depth), thus the batter gets no credit.

Similar to the SB situation with Fielder's Indifference.

by rmerrill on Mar 16, 2007 9:31 PM EDT reply actions