Best case scenarios, oh, and Spring Training Game 1 open thread: 28 February 2007

by Valatan on Feb 28, 2007 12:05 PM EST in St. Louis Cardinals News

My contest thread keeps on resetting to 'comments disabled' as a spam guard. I'm re-enabling the comments just for today. If you haven't, go vote. If that doesn't work, feel free to send me an email containing your vote. As, in case you haven't noticed, spring training games start today!

Update [2007-2-28 13:6:7 by lboros]: re the "comments disabled" thing --- all threads to default to that after 1 week as an anti-spamming measure. but the manual override should be good for today. [end update]

A while ago, lb asked us who the most disappointing prospect in recent memory was--which can't-miss guy that came up through the Cards system that failed us the worst. Well, that was during the midst of the hot stove season, when things are dark and cash-oriented. Since it is the first week of spring training, and as DanUp says, all there is to talk about is best-case scenarios, let's talk about the opposite of lb's discussion question, as the spring training games start:

What prospect has surprised you the most? It seems to happen that, just as often as strongly ballyhooed prospects flame out, you also seem to often have guys that just completely come out of nowhere to become superstars. Perhaps Chris Duncan will become the next example of this--a guy that wasn't highly considered makign the majors, and just sticking.

Just as we excluded Rick Ankiel from the previous discussion, I say that we have to exclude Albert from this discussion. His evolution from low round draft pick to interesting prospect to best player in baseball is unprecedented.

For me, the answer has to be Placido Polanco. I wasn't expecting much from the guy when he came up--just the standard sort of utility guy. Instead, he came out to be a solid major league player that really was able to evolve and become an everyday player for the Cardinals. I know that there are better examples in terms of prospect lists and VORP after hitting the majors, but I have never been as pleasantly surprised as I was by Polanco. I remember even being really happy for him when he was named the MVP in the ALCS. Who is the guy whose unexpected rise makes you smile the most?

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Ah, Spring... a fresh start, clean slate,

chance for renewal.

Now go out there and defend that fucking crown, boys.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 28, 2007 12:05 PM EST reply actions

But, per the ?

Haren. I figured he'd get hurt his first year in Oaktown. That surprised me.

Other than him, Yadi, Bert, and Dunc (and the new big two -- Reyes and Wainer) there haven't been any real call-ups in the last six years, have there?

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 28, 2007 12:08 PM EST up reply actions

Recently ...

... it's Josh Kinney. Wasn't even drafted.

by Lou Schuler on Feb 28, 2007 12:07 PM EST reply actions

couple guys

bud smith, britt rheames (i think) and that italian guy jason s..........chi. I dont think anything was ever expected of them but they made solid contributions and the cards were smart to move on after the magic stopped

by gocards80 on Feb 28, 2007 12:34 PM EST reply actions

Watching the game

Does anyone know of any websites that will be tracking the today's game live and reporting it via the internet (a la mlb.com's gameday)? I wouldn't mind checking it out from work, but I don't know of any such website.

Thanks

by Jonathan23 on Feb 28, 2007 12:49 PM EST reply actions

i can't find it anywhere

checked mlb.com, yahoo sports, espn . . . doesn't look as if gameday or mlb audio will be active. the mlb.com site will have inning by inning updates, however (click "schedule" from the mlb.com main menu).

the lineup, per goold:

pitching: wainwright 40 pp, mike smith 40, flores 30, sillman 30, falkenborg 30, hancock 30

eck ss
dunc lf
albt 1b
rolen 3b
wilson rf
jrod dh
molina c
gooch cf
miles 2b

by lboros on Feb 28, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions

yahoo boxscore

It's the best I've found so far, and that's sad. I'm trying to guess mlb.com's gameday naming convention, but so far, no luck. Doesn't look like they're providing it yet.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 1:21 PM EST up reply actions

By the way

Cards are up 1-0 after an inning. Wagonmaker was untouched in the first, Cards put together three hits and scored a run.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions

Yes

but how?

The possibilities are endless.

by Don Zero on Feb 28, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

Same Info on MLB's Scoreboard

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/scoreboard/20070228.html

by ArachNerd on Feb 28, 2007 1:30 PM EST up reply actions

YAYYYYYY

Gameday:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_02_28_flomlb_slnmlb_1&brand=mlb

by El Hombre on Feb 28, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions

Fantastic!

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 1:34 PM EST up reply actions

Sweet

3 pitch first inning by WW

by El Hombre on Feb 28, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions

Oh SWEEET!

Thank you!!

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions

awesome find!!

how did u find this? I cant find the link anywhere on mlbs site!

The Phinsider
SBN's Miami Dolphins Blog

by Matty I on Feb 28, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions

I don't take credit.

CJE15 over at CCH had the link.

by El Hombre on Feb 28, 2007 1:53 PM EST up reply actions

ST Gamedays

Last year, we figured out the filenames and were able to get the gameday links up for every game. I'm pretty sure they use spring training to train the new stringers on how to enter the data. (The gameday process was described in this HT article.) It looks like CJE15 figured it out for this season, thanks to him and el Hombre for passing it along.

Just to be completely pedantic, tomorrow's game will be here: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_03_01_nymmlb_slnmlb_1&brand=mlb

Different games are specified by the "2007_03_01_nymmlb_slnmlb_1" string, by year, month, day, home team, visiting team, and the 1 at the end is to distinguish between games of double headers (if you remember what those were). The team name short-forms use the Retrosheet conventions, so SLN for st. louis cardinals and FLO for the flordia marlins.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions

Oops

I didn't complete a thought there. When I wrote, "I'm pretty sure they use spring training to train the new stringers on how to enter the data," I meant that to be an explanation for why they don't put in all the data (the pitch-strike totals), why it updates intermittently, and why they don't give out the links at mlb.com.

How 'bout this game, too? Lots of old names on the field: John Gall, Scott Seabol, Marrero catching...

Glad to see Skip get an RBI double, too.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions

Wrong Link

Tomorrow's game will be one of these two:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_03_01_nynmlb_slnmlb_1&brand=mlb
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2006/gd.html?2007_03_01_slnmlb_nynmlb_1&brand=mlb

The Detroit vs. Mets game has the home and away teams out of order. I wonder if they just put them in alphabetically.

(Not that these are interesting issues to wonder upon.)

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions

It's the bottom one

Game on!

by liam on Mar 1, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions

I have wondered...

...about the prospect question quite abit in the past. I wonder if there is something about the majore league game that is style-wise different from the minors. I think hitters stick more often than pithcers just because the pitchers are near the zone more consistently in the show. Duncan can obviously hit a fastball. It is easier for him in the majors because he is seeing more of them hitting infront of Albert and more of the pitches he sees are strikes.

by BigJawnMize on Feb 28, 2007 1:15 PM EST reply actions

does anyone else want to see falkenborg make the

team?

'cuz I kinda do. I guess that pen's pretty deep, though.

o8o88o888o

by ilillillli on Feb 28, 2007 1:22 PM EST reply actions

Cards scored a run

in the bottom of the 1st. Leach says John Gall started for the Fish.

That's a winner!

by saveferris on Feb 28, 2007 1:26 PM EST reply actions

BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!

I wish JRod was starting in RF...it strikes me as a bad sign that he isn't and Wilson is. I can't wait to see the boxscore once the game is done and have some idea of who's doing what!

by azruavatar on Feb 28, 2007 1:32 PM EST reply actions

I posted

a link to the gameday a few posts up...

by El Hombre on Feb 28, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions

Cards Baseball!

Ahh, this makes a girl happy. I'm only following along via the Net, but it seems that Adam is starting off with a bang. The offseason is over. Redemption is in sight.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 1:33 PM EST reply actions

3 pitch First inning

I can't remember ever seeing a 3 pitch inning in the majors. Can anyone think of one? La Russa also now owes Wainy a Steak dinner. At least that was the rule for a 3 pitch inning everywhere I played.

By the way, I bought MLB TV and for some reason the Detroit game that is supposed to be broadcast isn't working. Anyone else having that problem? I just want to watch some baseball.

by stl3bagger on Feb 28, 2007 1:42 PM EST reply actions

Wow

He did it again in the 3rd..

15 pitches through 3 innings. Not bad!

by El Hombre on Feb 28, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions

I'm pretty sure

They're not tracking those on the gameday feed. They put up 4 balls for a walk and 3 strikes for a K, and that's as much detail as far as balls and strikes as you'll get.

What's up with the DH? I feel dirty.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions

Nevermind the last post

I just noticed that the gameday tracker isnt posting balls and strikes, just the result of the at bat. That makes more sense. However the question is still out there. I can't remember ever seeing a 3 pitch inning.

by stl3bagger on Feb 28, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions

I saw one once

Mo Rivera closing a game. First pitch out, first pitch hit the guy, first pitch ground into a game-ending DP.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions

I saw one

I saw John Smoltz do one it was either last year or 2005

by Calhoun on Feb 28, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions

AW was

very good today...good start!!!

The Phinsider
SBN's Miami Dolphins Blog

by Matty I on Feb 28, 2007 1:47 PM EST reply actions

Jeebus... another three-pitch inning.

Adam is something special. Yeah, it's the first game of spring training and all that... but this makes me extremely happy.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 1:47 PM EST reply actions

Okay, maybe not

Still. 15 pitches in 3 innings is 15 pitches in 3 innings.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions

God, how I

love coming here and seeing dueling hurler photos and stats (even if they are all zeros for now) at the top of the page. This means BASEBALL IS BACK and summer is just around the corner. I was beginning to believe this offseason would never end. Whew, what a winter. As for V's question--Kinney's my pick. Thank the gods, BASEBALL IS BACK!!

by rockin redbird on Feb 28, 2007 1:53 PM EST reply actions

Spotless outing for the Wainer today

That's what I like to see. And I echo the general consensus - THANK GOD! BASEBALL'S BACK!

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 1:56 PM EST reply actions

Scarlet, you rock!

I think Wainwright is already a stud. Just gotta hope nothing happens to that right arm.....

BTW, I also follow the Rockies, although there hasn't been much to follow the past few years.

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by Futility Infielder on Feb 28, 2007 2:31 PM EST up reply actions

Why thank you!

I also think Wainwright is a stud. See my blog for further evidence. I also do follow the Rockies by dint of being a Colorado native, but there's more to get excited about this year than others...

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions

I love that it is rapidly changing.

In the span of 3 seconds, Duncan went down looking, Pujols lined out, Rolen was hit and Preston flew out.

Rolen still without an official AB.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 1:56 PM EST reply actions

Wainer

is trying to throw as few pitches as he did when he was a closer.

by raisin @ Viva El Birdos on Feb 28, 2007 2:41 PM EST reply actions

Hmm

What happened to Amury Marti? I have not heard anything about him all spring. Is he even in camp?

by TICY on Feb 28, 2007 2:47 PM EST reply actions

He'll be in minor league camp

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions

Ankels in the outfield!

Ah man, I just had to say it...

I have a warm fuzzy feeling inside now

by redbird2006in on Feb 28, 2007 2:52 PM EST reply actions

Seeing as Gameday hasn't updated

for quite a while, can anyone tell me what's going on? Last time I saw it was 2-1 Cards in the bottom of the sixth.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 3:00 PM EST reply actions

I thought it was just me!

I thought maybe the Army didn't like the fact that I was watching a spring training game while I'm supposed to working, but I guess I'm not the only one!

by CardinalsfanIraq on Feb 28, 2007 3:04 PM EST up reply actions

Okay, now it's updated

Still 2-1 Cards bottom of the seventh, they squandered a scoring chance in the bottom of the sixth. Love the pitching, hope this isn't the tone set for the offense...

Stay safe over there.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions

We are battling the Ex-Cards

First Gall starting in left and now Seabol in the game too.

Also folks, call the Hall of Fame and get them ready for Ricky. Ankiel is offically batting 1.000.

by stl3bagger on Feb 28, 2007 3:11 PM EST reply actions

Our Slugging Leader

Aaron Miles

Gotta love these ultra-small sample sizes.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 3:16 PM EST up reply actions

random Scott Seabol fact

He had a OPS of .998 last year in AAA in 240+ ABs.

by DCGreg on Feb 28, 2007 3:21 PM EST up reply actions

I'm calling it

barring any more year-ending injuries, Ankiel hits at least one 500-footer this year.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 28, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions

the big question is:

where?

by DCGreg on Feb 28, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions

right-center

by plh903 on Feb 28, 2007 8:52 PM EST up reply actions

hah!

bases juiced, 1 out for ankiel.

by Birds on the Matt on Feb 28, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions

Otta nowhere

Valatan, Are we all forgetting about Willie Dean McGee?

by Zubin on Feb 28, 2007 3:20 PM EST reply actions

I'm twenty seven

by the time I was old enough to know what a prospect was, Willie had won a MVP award.

by Valatan on Feb 28, 2007 6:31 PM EST up reply actions

Wow, Gameday updating every batter

Bases loaded, one out. C'mon guys! Never too early to get those clutch muscles in gear!

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 3:26 PM EST reply actions

Well LOOKATTHAT!

2-run single for Anks!

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 3:28 PM EST reply actions

if I'm not mistaken

Ankiel has been thrown out at home twice now.

by DCGreg on Feb 28, 2007 3:31 PM EST reply actions

And here I thought his problem was that

he couldn't FIND homeplate.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions

LOL

Baseball is back. Rick's leading in rbi, hr, r, and outs at the plate.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Feb 28, 2007 3:50 PM EST up reply actions

Buerhle got roughed up

Line: 2.0 ip 6H 4R 4ER 1BB ERA 18.00

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 3:54 PM EST reply actions

As a Rockies fan in addition to a Cards fan

It was fun to watch what could be a very good offense do that clobbering.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions

Ouch, Garland is worse

he isn't even out of his 2nd inning of work and has already given up 5 runs, 4 earned.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions

In happier news

The Tigers pitching staff didn't commit any errors today.

Neifi Perez committed two, though.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions

Garland's line

2.0 IP 8H 7R 6ER 0k 0BB 5 Doubles 1Error 27.00 ERA

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions

Oh, and 1 HR.

In the 4th, he went like this to start:

Konerko error
Double
Groundout
Homer
Single (then subsequent pickoff error)
Double
Double

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions

he's headed for surgery this year

He's got Mark Mulder written all over him...

by azruavatar on Feb 28, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions

Naturally, Flores gives up 2 runs

But ah well. Baseball's back, Wainer had a great outing, and we win the game. You just can't complain.

Sparks of Dementia Cards, A's, and Rockies coverage by an amateur if very enthusiastic blogmistress, myself.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Feb 28, 2007 4:05 PM EST reply actions

Off-topic

As of this moment, the next user who registers at VeB will be the 200th. I think it would be funny to make a big hoopla on their first comment, like the way the 1,000,000th customer at a store. Not super funny, but funnier than most things on a wednesday afternoon.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 4:06 PM EST reply actions

Only 200

I thought the bandwagon was more crowded than that. VEB is certainly followed far and wide, and I would have guessed a lot more had registered and posted by now.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Feb 28, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions

Off by an OoM

I meant 2000th.

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 4:21 PM EST up reply actions

Celebrate at 2006

How about some commermorative VEB gear for the championship?

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Feb 28, 2007 4:28 PM EST reply actions

So...did Eli

actually catch today? Or am I reading the boxscore wrong. I would love to see Eli make the team and Bennett not!

by RedbirdRay on Feb 28, 2007 4:30 PM EST reply actions

me too

by nycbirdo on Feb 28, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions

I am on this bandwagon too...

Eli would offer so much more than GB as a backup. At least he could pinch hit in close games.

by OCCardsFan on Feb 28, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions

eli

yes, he came in as a late inning yadi replacer.. would like to see him make the club..just drove 17 hours back to the loo, after watching game 1 of ST, and the fellows looked in fine form...wainwright was magnificent!!
it looked to me that flores was working on pitching to rh'ers, when he gave up those 2 runs..i don"t really expect that in real games...ankiel looked good at the plate, and there really seems to be a buzz around him in the dugout, and amongst the coaches when he's playing...

by stlsports on Mar 1, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions

Off the subject

What is up with the Veterans Committee of the HOF? It's bad enough that Gossage missed out again this year, but then these guys had to make it worse by not electing anyone. As much as I hate to say this, doesn't Ron Santo belong? Not to mention others like Billy Martin, Gil Hodges, Marvin Miller, Walter O'Malley AND Whitey. At least some of these guys deserved to get in this year. And don't even get me started on the Buck O'Neil travesty......

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by Futility Infielder on Feb 28, 2007 4:48 PM EST reply actions

Wait a second...

You're a Cards fan and you're worried about Ron Santo. What about Ken Boyer? They have almost identical numbers and he never got in. As a matter of fact, Boyer's career was better because he won a MVP and a championship.

Ron Santo does not belong in the Hall of Fame. There...I said it.

by themang on Feb 28, 2007 5:08 PM EST up reply actions

Dude, you're right

How could I forget Boyer? Somebody drag me out back and slap me around for a while.

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by Futility Infielder on Feb 28, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions

santo

has 200 more games and a higher OPS+, and a higher peak too. I see absolutely no way to successfully argue that Boyer belongs in but Santo doesn't.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 28, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions

Boyer/Santo

I never said Boyer belongs in the HOF.

I was just making the point that they're similar players (However, Boyer has the MVP award, a championship and is generally regarded as the superior defensive player).

To be honest, I don't believe either belong in the HOF.

by themang on Feb 28, 2007 6:31 PM EST up reply actions

Park effects, anyone?

Santo, career, on the road: .257/.342/.406, just 37% of his HR total. OPS difference, home/road: +157

Boyer, career, on the road: .279/.345/.442, 46% of his HR total.
OPS difference, home/road: +53

Santo, in 4673 career road plate appearances, hit 126 hr.

Boyer, in 3525 career road plate appearances, hit 109 hr.

by salvomania on Feb 28, 2007 7:20 PM EST up reply actions

C'mon

guys. BOTH Boyer and Santo belong. Don't forget when they played--the 50's and 60's were very "low offense decades." You can't look at their numbers as if they were playing today. I mean, would anyone argue Brooks Robinson's inclusion? Look at his numbers--almost the same as Santo's. Of course, the apparent HUGE difference for those who vote is postseason play, which I really don't agree should be the deciding factor. Regardless, Boyer should definately make the cut. I'm not sure about the "sentiment" surrounding Santo (though I'd say Kirby Puckett definately benefitted from some, and if it works for one guy...), but if I had a vote I'd go for Boyer, Santo, Gossage, and Curt Flood as well. It is, after all, the Hall Of Fame and not the Hall Of Statistics. Or the Hall Of Superstars Only. Many players with borderline numbers but memorable careers and personalities have been enshrined. Why not these guys?

by rockin redbird on Feb 28, 2007 8:41 PM EST up reply actions

The Hall of Fame should be special

and those guys were just very good. I know that some guys got in and probably shouldn't have, but just because there were mistakes in the past doesn't mean some borderline guys should get in now. The writers of today shouldn't stoop to those levels. Somebody on here mentioned a book by Bill James that showed that a lot of guys got in because of politics and probably didn't really deserve it. Well...that shows that just because Tony Lazzeri and others got in with sub-par numbers doesn't mean we should continue that trend.

To me, Boyer and Santo were really good, but so were a lot of players. Edmonds, Walker, Dale Murphy, Gil Hodges, Andre Dawson...they are all great players, but you can't let everyone in.

Flood's a little different though. He should get in on the "Jackie Robinson rule" (i.e. very important to the history of the game).

And as a side note: does anyone else think the veterans committee shouldn't be allowed to vote in players? I mean, they already got 15 years to get in and they didn't get in so why should they get a 16th chance? The veterans committee should stick to managers, general managers, player reps (i.e. Marvin Miller), and maybe the odd player that changed the game (i.e. Flood). But as for regular players, it shouldn't be allowed because they already had their chance.

by themang on Feb 28, 2007 10:48 PM EST up reply actions

OPS+

takes care of that for you

by plh903 on Feb 28, 2007 8:55 PM EST up reply actions

Boyer and Santo

Its a tough call. Excluding John McGraw, who really is in as a manager, there are 12 3rd basemen in the hall. I listed them by weighting their OPS+ with at-bats and got the above results. If you rank by OPS+ they are still in the middle. Boyer and Santo rank in the middle of the pack. But let's face it since the 1940s 3rd base has become a much differnt position. So if you look at just the players that played after WWII, they are kind of weak. Both are better than Kell in every way I can tell, but they are weaker offensively than Mathews, Schmidt, Brett, Boggs and at least by reputation not as good defensively as Robinson.

I have always been of the opinion that the hall-voters are too stingy, so I'd say the are HoFers, but thats my opinion.

by Zubin on Mar 1, 2007 1:38 AM EST up reply actions

Pretty Similar

That was my point. Now it just comes down to one's opinion of the Hall like you said. My opinion is it should be really tough to get in.

By the way...did Kell get in because of the veteran's committee. I see he was inducted almost 30 years after his last season. This is why I don't like the veteran's committee voting on players...less deserving players seem to slip through the cracks.

by themang on Mar 1, 2007 9:11 AM EST up reply actions

Without Kell, there would be a gap

from '37 to '54 without a HoF 3rd baseman. Thay doesn't seem right either.

by Zubin on Mar 2, 2007 12:55 AM EST up reply actions

Greater than the game

Santo's election to the Hall eclipses more than just his numbers. If it were is numbers alone, yes he's on the fringe and you would be justified leaving him out. However what Santo has meant to so many people is more than just baseball and his stats. This man is a hero to so many people which span all over our nation. The man fought a terrible disease that so many Americans battle with. Its easy for people to give up, accept the disease and your fate, and live a short and unfullfilling live. However Santo fought for so long and successfully played a game that so many of us love with this disease. I can't imagine what that was like. He is greater than baseball, he's an inspiration. He is a person all of should strive to be and mimmick in life. This is why he should be in the Hall of Fame. He shows us what baseball should be. It may be only a game, but for so many of us its greater than life. Santo proved this and so much more. He fought for so many people with the same infliction. His induction would be a victory not only for himself, but for everyone with this disease.
Once in a great while comes a man who can become greater than baseball itself. I believe Ron Santo is one of those men.

by stl3bagger on Feb 28, 2007 11:43 PM EST up reply actions

Ok...

I'll admit that I don't know much about his battle with diabetes. If you say he was struggling mightily with the afflication his entire career, then that definitely earns him some points. I didn't know if his illness affected his game or not.

I have nothing against Santo...I'm just going on numbers as I was not around during his playing years.

by themang on Feb 28, 2007 11:47 PM EST up reply actions

Santo

Call me an ass, but I don't feel sorry for Santo in the least. The man with his heel clicking, and belittling of teammates does not belong in the HOF!

by CardinalsfanIraq on Feb 28, 2007 11:58 PM EST up reply actions

Just curious...

but how did he belittle his teammates?

And call me an ass too...but are we sure that his diabetes affected his play? I mean I know it took his legs eventually, but did it really make it more difficult to play when he was a young man? I don't know the answer. I'm just curious.

by themang on Mar 1, 2007 12:10 AM EST up reply actions

Well...

Being an a$$hole on the field hasn't kept anybody out yet--the Hall has enshrined plenty of jerks (as well as plenty of real gentlemen). I realize I've been arguing for a <cough> Cub <cough> here, but the real point to me is that if a guy like Santo can't get in, Boyer probably won't either. And I'd really love to see Boyer there.

by rockin redbird on Mar 1, 2007 2:15 AM EST up reply actions

Marquis on the radio

I heard Betty on a radio show here in Chicago yesterday. He was talking about that he only had 6-7 bad starts, that he had 20+ good starts.

Excuse me, Mr. Marquis, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. I had you maxing out with 11 good appearances last year, per WPA. And to be honest, it is not a matter of a couple starts pushing your ERA over 6.00; it's the 15 or so starts that pushed your ERA over 4.50.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 28, 2007 4:56 PM EST reply actions

Re:Marq

I almost am looking forward to seeing Marquis pitch in chicago as I am for the new Cards season. Both should be great to watch.

. . .I'm your huckleberry. . .

by joshbdork on Feb 28, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions

HOOPLA!!!

Behold! Joshbdork is the 2000th registered user at VeB!

by liam on Feb 28, 2007 6:47 PM EST up reply actions

Regarding those "6-7 bad starts"..

Marquis made 33 starts, and in about half of them (16) he had a "game score" of 38 or lower.

Now I know that "Game Score" isn't the be-all and end-all of performance gauges, but for reference, let's look at just what a Game Score of 38 looks like:

6 ip, 7 hits, 4 walks, 1 hbp, 1 homer, 5 earned runs.

That's not good--2 baserunners per inning, almost a run per inning.

And of those 16 sh!tty starts, that line above is the BEST of them.

In those 16 starts, Marquis was 2-13 with a no-decision. (The two wins came in games in which Marquis allowed 5 er in 5 innings).

by salvomania on Feb 28, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions

this is insane

and i don't buy it in the least, but mlbtraderumors is reporting that walt met for a really long time today with clemens....

carp, clemens, wainwright, reyes, wells.....that would be ridiculous

by MarcGldstn on Feb 28, 2007 4:56 PM EST reply actions

Please see StlToday.com

for details on this "meeting." They met with an agent of Clemens, who also represents Looper, among others.

by silent_bob on Feb 28, 2007 5:00 PM EST up reply actions

ok that sounds more realistic

i just glanced at that headline and couldn't believe what i was reading

by MarcGldstn on Feb 28, 2007 5:03 PM EST reply actions

MLB.com

has his agent saying he WILL NOT PLAY FOR ST. LOUIS.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 28, 2007 5:21 PM EST up reply actions

Why would he?

Why would he go back to a real baseball schedule after the deal he has in Houston? Come on gang! Take the worst part of your job, for Ragah it was the travel and being away from home, and if you could chuck it and still make a boat load of cash, wouldn't you do it?

Check list

World Series Ring? Check!
Buckets of cash? Check!

So, what's he got left to pitch for? Nothing! If he can get paid, stay home, and watch his kids play, he'd be a fool not to take that deal.

Roger is an Astro if he pitches at all this year.

by Brock20 on Feb 28, 2007 5:46 PM EST up reply actions

those are

some large buckets

by plh903 on Feb 28, 2007 8:56 PM EST up reply actions

placido

good call val, pp was a pleasant suprise. stellar contact rate and good d was all there was to like about him, but he's really improved his overall game since coming up. gives me hope for the solanos and lucenas of the world, and makes me like jose martinez's nice xb hit rate all the more.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Feb 28, 2007 6:50 PM EST reply actions

Speaking for former Cardinal second sackers...

I'm watching the Red Sox spring training game and Luis Alciea is their new first base coach. He's was coaching at their Penn League affiliate last year.

Considering they are breaking in a young, promising second baseman, having Luis around is a pretty good idea.

Speaking of bad ideas, Kerry Robinson is in camp with the Red Sox.

by Brock20 on Feb 28, 2007 9:44 PM EST reply actions