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tourney time

gads; we're still nearly a month away from the first spring training game, and nearly two months away from Opening Day. that's too long to wait for another box score.

for which reason, i'm thinking of conducting a baseball tournament over the next few weeks. it'd be a 24-team field, and each team would be made up of one great cardinal player. that's right, one player --- 9 times over. to show you what i mean, this might be the starting lineup for the Enos Slaughters:

  1. slaughter 1953
  2. slaughter 1948
  3. slaughter 1942
  4. slaughter 1949
  5. slaughter 1940
  6. slaughter 1941
  7. slaughter 1939
  8. slaughter 1946
  9. slaughter 1952
simple concept. after the field has been selected and seeded, i'd play it off using a simplified simulation program, with each matchup consisting of a 7-game series. the results would be posted ev'y few days until we have a champ.

before i go on, i gotta know --- am i the only person who'd be amused by this exercise? if so, i won't inflict it on the rest of you; speak up in the comments if you'd rather be spared. assuming that at least some of you would be interested, here's how i would propose to set up the tournament field --- subject to suggestions and modifications from the community.

first question: why 24 teams? couple reasons. there's the simple matter of timing: if we create a full 64-team bracket a la march madness, the tournament will drag on for weeks and weeks; i'll lose interest, and you probably will too. more to the point, i'm think the tournament should only be open to players who spent most or all of their careers with st louis. gregg jefferies and dick allen each had one incredible season for the cards, but neither wore the birds-on-bat for enough years to field an entire 9-man team. if we limit the field to players who logged 9 years (or almost 9) with the franchise, there aren't enough decent candidates to go beyond a 24-team field.

but here's another consideration: if we enforce a strict 9-years-with-the-franchise minimum, then some of the franchise's best players --- including edmonds and pujols --- are excluded. but if we take pujols' 6 years with the franchise and pair them with, say, jack clark's 3 cardinal seasons, we have a full 9-man team --- a damn good one. insofar as the absence of jed and pu would take a lot of the fun out of this exercise, i think we have to flex the 9-year rule as necessary. if you strongly disagree, state your objections in the comments.

i also think the field should have representatives from every position on the field. otherwise, we'll just end up with a bunch of outfielders and first basemen, plus a few infielders (boyer, hornsby, frisch) and one catcher (ted simmons). if we start with 2 players at 8 positions, that gives us 16 "automatic bids," with 8 at-large bids remaining to round out the field.

here's who i'd propose for the automatic bids:

simmons c mccarver
pujols (6)
clark (3)
1b mize (6)
mcgwire (3)
hornsby 2b frisch
boyer 3b kurowski (5)
rolen (4)
ozzie ss renteria (6)
groat (3)
musial lf brock
lankford cf edmonds (7)
moon (2)
slaughter rf medwick (7)
blades (2)

i nominate the above based on the following factors: years with the franchise; hitting ability; and association with championship teams. the ancillary players (ie, wally moon, ray blades, dick groat et al) were great hitters who clearly were not candidates for at-large bids, based on limited service time. these 16 teams include four players from the 1920s-30s, five from the 1940s-50s, five from the 1960s-70s, four from the 1980s-90s, and four from the current decade.

i'll entertain challenges to this list in the comments thread; if you think there's a more deserving player for one of these slots, make the case below. for now i'll proceed with these 16 teams, with the understanding that they are subject to change. the primary candidates for at-large bids to round out this field would then seem to include:

willie mcgee jim bottomley red schoendienst
chick hafey joe torre bill white
terry moore keith hernandez pepper martin
tip o'neill curt flood george hendrick
garry templeton vince coleman

most of the guys on this list fall short of 9 full years with the franchise and thus would need to add a partner to round out the lineup. a number of prominent longtime cardinals aren't listed here for a simple reason: they were terrible hitters. julian javier ranks 11th on the franchise list for games played and is the all-time franchise leader for games played at 2b --- but he only topped .700 in OPS twice in his career. the same goes for marty marion, who ranks 13th all-time in games and won an mvp award and 3 world titles in his 11 years with the cards. ken reitz, tom herr, del rice, tom pagnozzi, dal maxvill --- all rank in the franchise top 5 in games played at their respective positions, but what would be the point of entering them in this tournament? they'd be seeded low and get swept in the opening round by slaughter or lankford or simmons. waste of a bid.

largely for the same reason, the deadball era (ie, pre-1920) is nearly invisible here. in those low-scoring days, an .850 OPS might make you the mvp --- and the cardinal franchise didn't have many mvp candidates back then. nor did it have many long-term players. i've listed one deadball-days cardinal, tip o'neill, in the table of at-large possibilities; a few others (jesse burkett, ed konetchy) might make a suitable roster filler. but we've only got 8 bids to hand out, and the competition is tight; guys like charlie comiskey and miller huggins and patsy donovan just don't measure up.

i originally intended to post a poll listing all the at-large candidates, and then allowing everybody to vote for up to 8 players. but my software only allows me to list 10 options in the poll; i can't figure out how to increase that to 15. so let's make a few common-sense decisions. bottomley and hafey are simply too good as hitters to be excluded; they're in. o'neill is our lone deadball-era guy, so he's in as well. schoendienst ranks among the franchise's all-time top 10 in games, at-bats, hits, and runs. if i grant each of those 4 guys a provisional bid, that leaves 4 remaining slots and 10 candidates. so that'll be the poll. vote for up to 4 guys, and use the comments thread below to cast a write-in vote for any player who's not listed in the poll.

i'll leave the poll up through the weekend and unveil the field next week --- or, if you all tell me you're not even interested, i'll forget the whole exercise.

Update [2007-2-2 9:10:13 by lboros]: ok --- i can't seem to activate the mechanism that allows you to vote for multiple players in the poll. so we'll have to do it manually ---- post a comment listing your top at-large bids. let's go ahead and make it your top 8 --- i still think bottomley, hafey, o'neill, and schoendienst should get in, but since we're no longer bound by the limitations of the (@#!$%$!#$) poll utility, i'll revert to the original idea and let everybody vote for 8 at-larges. i'll just tally 'em up by hand.

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Pujols and Jed
In Pujols' and Edmonds' case, why couldn't you use all six season, and then his three median seasons to fill out the lineup--just use the most typical seasons twice? Clark might be more problematic, mostly because two thirds of your lineup would be injured at any given time.

Fun fun fun!

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Feb 2, 2007 8:57 AM EST   0 recs

i thought about doing it that way
but i like the idea of getting more players involved by rounding out the rosters with shorter-term players.

by lboros on Feb 2, 2007 9:50 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Sounds like fun
I think it will be interesting.  I do have two questions.
  1. How is the pitching deternimed?  Is it a standard league average pitcher, or does Bob Forsch make up everyone's staff.
  2. Will people play every position?  Will there be 9 Ray Lankford's in the field and will he play short like Ray really would?  Taking out defense would hurt Ozzie's game, but I hate to think about how many bases Brock would steal with Clark as the catcher.
My at large votes:  Bottomley, Schoendienst, Hernandez, Flood, Coleman, O'neil, Hafey, and McGee

Although I don't think Coleman deserves to be on the list as a batter, a matchup with Brock would be interesting.

by Stanfan6 on Feb 2, 2007 9:28 AM EST   0 recs

re fielding and pitching
i'm proposing to take those elements out of the equation and make it strictly a hitting contest. on the mcgwire / mize team, for example, either mize or mcgwire will have to play shortstop, but i'm thinking i'll set their defensive ratings to average so it won't affect their team one way or the other.

i considered making all the guys play defense, but that means every team will have horrible players at at least one of the three key defensive positions (catcher, ss, and 2b) --- and most teams will have horrible players at all 3 positions. it would make for some bizarre outcomes.

the pitcher will be a generic non-factor, so each player's hitting stats will speak for themselves.

by lboros on Feb 2, 2007 9:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

"...making all the guys play defense"
Advantage: Oquendo

by Jonathan23 on Feb 2, 2007 9:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Actually
Hornsby and/or Frisch would wipe the floor with everyone else.

Hornsby played evry infeild spot except 1st as a regular at some point in his career.  However he was bad at moving back on pop-up and presumably he would have been only an average OFer.

Frisch, Schoendist and Smith all had the ability to play any position well, though I think Smith may be limited by his arm.  Given their relative offensive abilities, I'd give a big advantage to the Fordam Flash.

by Zubin on Feb 2, 2007 10:15 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Could you
rate the defense based on the players defense?

What I mean is have all of Ozzie's team be Ex while Mac would be Av. If you say that giving rating would cause two months worth of complaining and isn't worth it...I could see that. It's just a shame that Ozzie losses what makes him great.

You could buy every year of DMB past seasons and use their ratings and with the money left over pay off the national debt.

by Harknights on Feb 2, 2007 10:27 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I agree with this to a point
there's no doubt in my mind Ozzie could've played any position (except maybe C) well.  Maybe Pujols, too (except CF).  But Edmonds, for example, is left-handed and wouldn't have worked as a SS or 3B.

I think bad fielders should be rated as such and excellent fielders should as well.  

by houstoncardinal on Feb 2, 2007 12:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ozzie didn't have the arm,
at least later in his career to play C, 3B, RF or maybe even CF IMHO.

by Zubin on Feb 2, 2007 2:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Definitely better than watching the calendar
I am all for anything that will give me some semblance of Cards baseball.  

Here is my list:
McGee, Schoendienst, O'Neil, Flood, Coleman, Hernandez, Torre, Martin.

by JBagKY on Feb 2, 2007 9:36 AM EST   0 recs

My Votes:
Flood, White, Schoendienst, Mcgee, Torre, Bottomley, Martin, and Hafey.

One other comment. I see you have Joe Medwick paired up with someone to fill out 9 seasons. While I know Joe's first and last seasons with St. Louis were not full season by any means, I would love to see Joe Medwick without being paired up. Could you pro-rate his last too seasons.

by JMedwick on Feb 2, 2007 10:09 AM EST   0 recs

My vote...
keith hernandez, willie mcgee, jim bottomley, red schoendienst, curt flood, joe torre, chick hafey, tip o'neill

Larry,

My only concern with this is that you are giving Mize a huge advantage giving him McGwire's 3 years.  If you compare Big Mac's 3 years vs. Jack Clark, you're really giving Pujols a disadvantage (especially with Clark's injured 1986).  I'm not sure Jack's 2 full seasons is good enough to be on this list.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Feb 2, 2007 10:11 AM EST   0 recs

Agreed
Leave McGwire out of the tournament. There are plenty of other first basemen to choose from.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 10:17 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mac
I too agree.  Besides, Mac is remembered more as an Athletic than a Cardinal.  There are plenty of candidates more deserving at 1st:  

Ripper Collins,
Ed Konetchy,
Joe Cunninham

Given their relevance, I'd take Ripper over Mac.

by Zubin on Feb 2, 2007 10:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

you guys make a good case
if there's a strong contingent of big-mac supporters out there, speak up --- otherwise, he's out of the tourney

by lboros on Feb 2, 2007 10:56 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

His good seasons are too valuable
to ignore.  They belong in a tourney, like this, that chooses to recognize excellence rather than commitment.  

How can you make an exception for Edmonds and not Mcgwire?

(I think i should throw in a snide comment about "moral police" or something, too)

by Jonathan23 on Feb 2, 2007 11:24 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Big Mac
He has said the birds on bat will go into the Hall (in 2058 or whenever the pendulum swings back) -- if he wants to be remembered a Cardinal we should have the courtesy of obliging...so I vote, let him stay!

(He's had a tough enough year as it is without us bouncing him out of VEB!)

by brdsnbt on Feb 2, 2007 11:42 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

it's crazy to leave mcgwire out.
i mean, do y'all remember '98?

far too memorable to leave out of the tournament.

ps. this seems like the greatest thing ever.

by dagniel on Feb 2, 2007 12:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I remember the McGwire era
It was awesome, but it was a sideshow. It wasn't real baseball. The dude was juiced up. I've got home video of his batting practice the night he hit HRs #500 and #501. Balls that off the bat looked like he got under them ended up in the upper deck.

Realize, that we were manipulated by MLB. Nothing gets national attention like a HR race to break the single season record. While it was cool at the time,  we've cheated the future generations because we're never going to have anything like 1927/1961/1998 again now that the bar has been artificially set so high.

Please keep McGwire's juiced numbers out of this exercise.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 1:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

yea
I caught one of those balls in batting practice and was in the same section where #500 landed.  And it was awesome!  It definitely has stuck in my head and my heart as a great moment in Cardinals history DESPITE the other issues.  This should not be a referedum on steroids but instead a celebration of great Cardinals players.  And McGwire is one of those.

by eglasier on Feb 2, 2007 1:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

maybe I'm spoiled by the recent success...
But that game wouldn't even crack my top 20 stadium memories of the last 10 years. It was cool - espcially w/ Gwynn sitting on 2998 going in - but it's not like I'll be telling my grandchildren about it.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 2:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

real baseball?
oh, i guess you could call it a sideshow, but isn't that how ripken was? that's what happens when records are being chased on otherwise-mediocre teams.

and i don't understand the standpoint from which you are saying we've been 'cheated.' are we forever cheated because of 1968? or is that just the way that baseball is - it has different eras. hard to determine 'bad' and 'good,' i'd say.

by dagniel on Feb 2, 2007 3:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Let me clarify
When more attention is being paid to whether or not an individual hit a HR than who won the game, that player has become a sideshow. Real baseball involves fundamentals, baserunning strategy, etc... - those elements deteriorated throughout the league during the shift to the long-ball era. Baseball ended up with fewer good all around atheletes and more one-dimentional body builders. That's bad for the game.

Ripken was indeed a sideshow, but there was something transcendant about Ripken's streak - in the modern era of selfish millionaire players, and in the wake of a cancelled World Series due to money grubbing by the players/owners - here's a guy who went to work every day and did his job like the rest of us bums.

Back to McGwire - We have been cheated because we will never again have a great home run race like we did in '61 and '98 - and if someone does break the record, everyone will assume that person was juicing too. Our children will never be able to experience what we experienced in 1998. That's kind of depressing don't you think?

The HR record was sacred. It was different than every other record (including the modern-era ERA record) because of the ties to Babe Ruth, and the chase of '61. That's why 62 was such a big deal - and why I personally feel like I've been cheated out of the next great HR race.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 3:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'd say
Pujols and Howard could very well race to 74 next year.  
"...in winter, when there's no baseball... I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Feb 2, 2007 3:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

could happen...
but I think I'll wait for Pujols to crack 50 before I start thinking about 74.

Last May a buddy of mine emailed me, "I pray that he somehow finds a way to beat *73 this year."

I replied, "that would be poetic justice for sure, but more than anything, I'd like to see the Cardinals win the World Series by beating the Giants, Mets, and Red Sox."

It didn't turn out quite as I'd envisioned, but I'll take it!

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 4:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Playoffs
Beyond the taint of steroids, HGH and red hair, McGwire failed to lead the Cardinals to the playoffs in an era that allows the most playoff teams in history.  Pujols did it his rookie season.  Others did it when only penant winners made the playoffs.  Do not forget that factor when dumping McGwire from the annals of Cardinals lore.
PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on Feb 2, 2007 12:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

McGwire in the postseason
The Cardinals went to the NLCS in 2000 and the NLDS in 2001 with McGwire on the team (his AB's really dropped off both of those years).  I've got a lot of issues with him, but he did "lead them to the playoffs" twice.

by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 12:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Correct
Like you said, his numbers really dropped off and he was not what got them to the playoffs.  Any reasonable person would attribute 2000 offensively to Jim Edmonds with Edgar Renteria having more of an impact than McGwire, and 2001 to Albert and Jimmy.  I did not say he wasn't on the roster in 2000 or 2001, but you might as well say So Taguchi has led the Cardinals to two World Series appearances if you are legitimately going to claim that McGwire led the Cardinals to the playoffs.  I think you do a more effective job of arguing my point than contradicting it.
PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on Feb 2, 2007 1:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

My point
was better made by musial6 below.  It takes 25 guys to make the playoffs.  While we didn't make it during McGwire's big years in St. Louis, how much of that was his fault?  Following your logic, the Cardinals didn't win the pennant the last 17 years of Musial's career in St. Louis, when he was truly the guy expected to carry the team (and he did).  Was that his fault?  Or was it the fact that his supporting cast wasn't so good?

I am no McGwire defender, but saying the 97-99 Redbirds didn't make the playoffs was somehow his responsibility isn't accurate IMHO.  The argument there starts with the lack of pitching - and any lack of run support was not McGwire's fault.

by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 2:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Right
That argument should be pointed at lboros.  I was merely applying his methodology: "i nominate the above based on the following factors: years with the franchise; hitting ability; and association with championship teams."  McGwire obviously fails at years with the franchise, and association with championship teams.  Go out on the street and ask 10,000 people outside of STL to associate McGwire with a championship in St. Louis and tell me how many say, "well he was on the roster for the 2000 National League Central Division Champions".  The third qualifier was hitting ability which we all admit was artificially flavored.  Apply the methodology, not your opinion.
PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on Feb 2, 2007 4:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

OK
Applying the methodology requires opinion, no? You're clearly applying yours.  Why are you picking on McGwire, and not Jack Clark, or Dick Groat, or Ray Blades, or Wally Moon?  Looking at the criteria, McGwire had as many years as any of them and was a better hitter than any of them.  He didn't win a WS with the Cardinals but he was here for 4.5 years and they made the playoffs twice.

by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 10:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

good points wildman
and more to the point --- it's just for fun. there's no "methodology" to debate. if there's a case against mcgwire, it's the asterisk next to his accomplishments. his single-season hr totals are 40 percent higher than the next-best hr totals in franchise history --- and he cheated to get those numbers.

i think it's legitimate to object on the grounds that those seasons distort the competition and should be excluded. i'm not necessarily there yet; but it's a serious argument.

but there's certainly no objection to be raised on the grounds of "methodology."

by lboros on Feb 2, 2007 11:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not McGwire apologist
but it's not his fault that the rotation sucked when he was most productive. McGwire's peak here was from mid-August '97 (after that initial slump) through June '00 (at which point his body started failing him).

By the time we got to the playoffs in 2000, McGwire was nursing a bad knee and really couldn't do anything more than pinch-hit.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 1:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Big Mac has every right
Just keeping it a Cardinals history lesson is great, but don't forget the magnitude of what McGwire did after the strike. I was there for Cubs-Cards (August I believe) during that amazing Summer. The flashbulbs, the electricity....amazing.
Opening Night 2007, here I come!

by GForce9 on Feb 2, 2007 1:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm sorry
but I don't buy this shit at all.

McGwire may have put baseball back on the map around the country, but here in St. Louis, baseball was brought back by the 1996 team. Ozzie's last season. The return of 51. Clutch Brian Jordan.

Baseball was alive and well in St. Louis before McGwire arrived.

Now outside of the cities that had pennant races right after the strike, McGwire did a lot to put baseball back on the map - but what does that really mean? It means additional TV revenue, higher player salaries, higher ticket prices leaguewide and an increase in the corporate influence on the sport in general.

These developments are not good for the regular fans who were already into the sport before McGwire's juiced ass started breaking records.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 2:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mac is a Card
Don't leave him out!!!

by Harknights on Feb 2, 2007 2:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I disagree
why would we keep McGwire out?  If the only reason is that it makes the "Pujols team" weaker by comparison, that's a pretty poor reason.  McGwire definitely belongs in.  His seasons merit inclusion.  He was a Cardinal.  He fits all the criteria.

by houstoncardinal on Feb 2, 2007 3:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I disagree...
Mac may have one his championship as an Athletic, but he "saved baseball" as a Cardinal. The entire "non baseball watching community who fell in love with the game in 1998 for all the wrong reasons" remembers him in white and red, without the slightest twinges of yellow or green. IF you were to randomly ask women in Wal-Mart what team Big Mac, the guy who broke the record, played for...they'd say 'some red team'. LBoros, Mac deserved the MVP over Sneezy McCork in 1998. We're all shamed by Mac's congressional testimony, but we all said we would bear Mac's children in 1998, and were so proud he was a Cardinal. He belongs on this list.

by Big Rev on Feb 2, 2007 2:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Random people in Wal-Mart?
I don't care what random people in Wal-Mart think. I care what intelligent fans who follow the game and have respect for its history and tradition think.

Call me a snob, but that's how I feel.

MLB has made lots of money with this dumbed down "give the fans more homeruns because that's what they want" approach, and it has hurt the game itself. I'll take Whiteyball over Juice-ball every day of the week and twice on sunday.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 2:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Did you read who I was replying to, musial6?
My thing was the comment made higher up the post that Mac would be remembered more as an athletic than as a cardinal. And no, I don't think of you as a slob. I don't personally think that Mac even saved baseball. And I didn't just say random people at Wal-Mart, but random WOMEN (who may or may not follow baseball). He'll be remembered as a Card, no doubt.

by Big Rev on Feb 2, 2007 5:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Snob, not slob...my mistake.
you're not a slob either, i guess.

by Big Rev on Feb 2, 2007 5:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Do it! (Please.)
I vote for:

McGee
Red
Bottomley
Hernandez
O'Neill
Flood
Coleman
Hafey

by PhatAlbert on Feb 2, 2007 10:15 AM EST   0 recs

A vote for Willie McGee is a vote for America!
McGee, Coleman, Red, Torre, Herr, Martin, Flood, and, finally, Milt Thompson.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 2, 2007 10:15 AM EST   0 recs

Tip O'Neil and Bob Caruthers
LB:

How about pairing Tip O'Neil with Bob Caruthers?

Tip had 7 seasons as a regular and Bob had 2 as a batsman.  They were contemporaries and team-mates...  Oh and both were regular pitchers at some point too.  (That takes care of the pitching spot.)

My eight:
Tip O'Neil/ Bob Caruthers (If I can nominate him)
Hafey
Bottomley
Schoendist
Martin
Flood
McGee

by Zubin on Feb 2, 2007 10:26 AM EST   0 recs

Why no Gibson?
I'm guessing this doesn't work for the simulation.  But the guy could hit too and everybody else would suck against his pitching for 68.

by enoscountry on Feb 2, 2007 10:27 AM EST   0 recs

Also
I think there should be some kind of penalty applied to the stats of the secondary fill-in guys -   10-year+ guys like McGee will get screwed because their worst seasons will be dwarfed by the best years of the secondary players of the other teams. We should be rewarding tenure, not lack thereof.

I'll submit my ballot after I've had time to think about it.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 10:29 AM EST   0 recs

I assume
lboros will use the 9 best seasons for players with a tenure longer than 9.  So it is to their advantage.  With players that only played 6, they have to use all of them, including any stinkers.
PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on Feb 2, 2007 10:42 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

My point was...
letting guys with less than 9 years pad their team with someone else's best years seems unfair to the players with long enough tenure to field an entire team by themselves.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 11:10 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Votes
I agree to leave McGwire out of the tournament.  Let's try to keep this electronically clean.
Bubble players for me would be the 4 provisionals along with joe torre, keith hernandez, george hendrick and of course, mike matheny.  throw in 3 years of orlando cepeda somewhere, instead of mcgwire?
PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on Feb 2, 2007 10:36 AM EST   0 recs

out of my league
I'm a late comer to the whole baseball scene so instead of giving a very uneducated list, I think I'll just sit back and enjoy the history lesson :)

by Birds on the Matt on Feb 2, 2007 10:51 AM EST   0 recs

my list
First of all, I vote for McGwire to stay.  An average OBP that high for 3 years, something well above 1100 is just too amazing to ignore.  He was the face of the Cardinals for those years and brought a lot of excitement.  I just don't think that this list would be complete without him, even taking into account the "moral" argument.

the other 9:  O'Neil, Bottomley, Hafey, Schoendist, Martin, Flood, McGee, Coleman, and (sentimental pick) Pendelton.  

Also, I'm all for keeping Clark.  He was the face of the Cards for a few years as well.

by eglasier on Feb 2, 2007 11:40 AM EST   0 recs

1100 OBP?
Good god, I had no idea McGwire was that good.  Did he get extra points for intentional walks or something?  :)

Just kidding eglasier, I'm sure you meant OPS...

I vote to let Big Mac stay too, althouth I also agree that it would be a cool idea to downgrade the players that don't have at least 6 years as a Cardinal.  

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Feb 2, 2007 11:59 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

woops!
yea, OPS, my bad

by eglasier on Feb 2, 2007 12:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yes, his numbers were insane
But I think you are missing the point. This isn't a list of the greatest Cardinals ever - McGwire belongs (somewhere) on that list.

This is a sim-tournament using player's individual seasons as different guys in the order. Since some players don't have 9 seasons, there needs to be some fill-in seasons to complete the roster. McGwire only had 2 full seasons here - so he's obviously a fill-in, rather than a team captain.

Is it in the best interest of the tournament to give any single player/team (i.e. Team Mize) McGwire's steroid aided seasons (which even trump Mize's already outstanding numbers) when the rest of the teams will be getting fill-in seasons that are more down to earth?

I think it makes sense to leave McGwire's ridiculous numbers out for the integrity of the competition. Personally I don't want to see team Stan the Man losing to team Mize/McJuicer in the final.

by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 3:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

mike matheny
matheny announced he's retiring because his symptoms from the concussion haven't imporved.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/story/4EEDB3FD305C31EB86257276000DA0D4?OpenDocum ent

by jojo5492 on Feb 2, 2007 11:59 AM EST   0 recs

break musial into 2
have 2 separate musials, one for first 9 years then next 9, or say best of first ten and best of second ten, i bet he would still be close to winning both times
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 2, 2007 12:00 PM EST   0 recs

Double Down...
I would want to give Musial every chance to win the competion, so I wouldn't break up his greatest seasons.  You could break him into 2 teams by using his best 9 career seasons and his 10 through 18th best seasons.  I wouldn't count out his 10-18th seasons.  That team would STILL get pretty far.
"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Feb 2, 2007 12:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I think we are leaving out one important guy
What about Marty Marion? This guy even won the league MVP in 1944. To me thats like winning a confernce tournament, its an automatic bid. PLus I think its nice including some oldtimers to the tournament, helps with the knowledge or Cardinal history.

by stl3bagger on Feb 2, 2007 12:17 PM EST   0 recs

Great idea, lboros
Thanks for keeping the meager supply of brain cells active in the cold of winter!

I say keep McGwire in, all moral commentary aside.  If you paired him with Pujols that would probably rig the winner, right there.

The guys from the 1930's have the high Avs/OBP and the guys from the 1990's-2000's have the power advantage with high Slg.  Looking at those guys from the 1960's they have a higher hill to climb having played in the heyday of the pitcher.

My top 8:

Bottomley
McGee
Hernandez
Martin
Torre
Schoendienst
O'Neill
Hafey

Have at it and have fun!

by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 12:26 PM EST   0 recs

For all you baseball fans with iPods....
Colorado has their own version of "The Secret Weapon" - this from The Daily Fix at wsj.com:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117043003358696329.html?mod=hps_us_at_glance_columnists

If the Colorado Rockies win the NL West next year, perhaps they ought to vote Apple's Steve Jobs a playoff share.

Last year Brian Jones, then the Rockies' assistant coordinator of video coaching, and a colleague started experimenting with loading videos of at-bats and pitching performances -- an invaluable and time-honored scouting tool for players -- onto iPods.

"I showed it to [Todd] Helton," Mr. Jones tells ESPN.com's Jayson Stark. "And the next day, he brought his iPod in, and we put all his hits on there, dating back to 1998."

As Mr. Stark notes, "there were 1,509 of those hits, by the way. And when Helton's iPod didn't instantly explode or anything, the Rockies knew they were on to something. Eventually, more than two-thirds of the roster had piled on and turned this team into baseball's official iSquad. Every player gets his own custom set of videos loaded onto his personal iPod, sorted by date, hitter, pitcher and opponent -- and updated every week or so."

Jason Jennings, for one, credits the iPod viewing with helping him turn around his season. Mr. Jennings is now a member of the Houston Astros, and one imagines he'll be telling his new teammates about the Rockies' practice. If they don't know already, that is: Mr. Stark says players on the Philadelphia Phillies, Florida Marlins, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians and Boston Red Sox are either already using iPods for game preparation, or have asked their organizations about it.

Which makes Mr. Stark wonder what's to come.

"One of these days, we predict, you'll see a pitcher take a walk behind the mound during a key at-bat, pull out his iPod and take a quick video-refresher course before launching the big pitch of the night," he writes. "Heck, if NFL quarterbacks can get plays radioed right into their helmets, why not? 'So then you know what'll happen,' Jennings laughed. 'Instead of getting kicked out of games for using pine tar, we'll get kicked out for using our iPods.' "

by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 12:43 PM EST   0 recs

Hard to imagine video junkies
like the Cardinals not doing this too.  And a guy like Albert who's obsessed with every detail of his ABs will lead the way.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 2, 2007 1:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I really like your original 4
Red needs to be there as does tip.  You've got to include Torre and Hernandez, they were both MVP's.  I'd then add Willie and Flood.  Sounds like a lot of fun.

You ought to make them all face a rotation of Gibsons!  That'll separate the men from the boys!

by houstoncardinal on Feb 2, 2007 12:45 PM EST   0 recs

Question
I am a huge fan of the site and just decided to create an account today (even though I come every day). I am very intrigued by the hitting contest, but my only concern is that players who played more than nine seasons with Cardinals have an inherent advantage over the others. It probably won't matter too much, but being able to eliminate a player's off years could be influential.

Thoughts?

by dukejbh14 on Feb 2, 2007 1:02 PM EST   0 recs

OK the official 2007 campaign for Marty Marion
Marty Marion
Nicknames - Slats, the Octopus

 .263 batting average with 1448 hits and 272 doubles and 36 home runs and 624 RBI in 1572 games.

Eight Consecutive Allstar games (1943-1950)
League MVP (1944)
Would had won multiple Gold Gloves if there had been Gold Gloves then

Played in 4 World Series (won 1942, 1944, 1946)

Managed the Cards in 1951

To sum Marty up, he was Ozzie before Ozzie was Ozzie. Granted I never saw Marty play but claims state he was just as good as Ozzie, just not as flashy. THe Cardinals organization is one of the best in the majors rememberring their past players, but i feel this is one player that has fallen through the cracks. Marion is the second oldest living cardinal (if the internet is right), but I have never seen him at any games nor celebrations. However I think his stats and accomplishments speak for themselves, he is one of the best 24 positional players ever in Cardinal History. Plus come on, his nickname was Octupus, good enough for me.

by stl3bagger on Feb 2, 2007 1:03 PM EST   0 recs

marion was a great player
and has meant a lot to st louis baseball. no argument about that.

but to elaborate upon what i said in the main post: the simulation isn't going to value marion's fielding skills the way they're valued in real life. and his hitting stats are so bad that he's got no chance. no matter who the opponent, he'll get beaten 0-4 in round 1 of the tournament and never be heard from again.

why include a player like that? it says more about the limitations of computer-based baseball than it does about marion; nonetheless, in this context his skills don't translate.

i'd rather give the slot to a player who at least would have a chance to win a series.

by lboros on Feb 2, 2007 1:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

votes:
My Votes:
  1. McGee
  2. Bottomley
  3. Schoendienst
  4. Hernandez/Cepeda
  5. Flood
  6. Pepper Martin/ Mike Shannon
  7. Hendrick/Hafey
  8. Bill White/Ripper Collins
Although I would rather see Musial 10-18 in it than most of them.

by 1st3rd2death on Feb 2, 2007 1:06 PM EST   0 recs

CF
 9 good years for Ray?  don't get me wrong, I respect his effort, and he performed well for 5 years tops. Too many k's and a postseason average of .189 with 0 home runs, 2 doubles and 14 k's in 37 ab's.  Surely we can find better.

by Yadier on Feb 2, 2007 1:18 PM EST   0 recs