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community projection results: edmonds

Update [2007-2-16 17:48:28 by lboros]: kip wells community projection is up. [end update]

the edmonds numbers in a moment. first, a few housekeeping items:

  • still time to fill out a sim tournament bracket; send it to Cardinal70 at cardinal70@gmail.com.
  • and if haven't yet entered Valatan's preseason contest, i've reopened the comments in that thread. as a spam-combatting measure, comments are automatically closed one week after posting; i've manually lifted the ban, so you can go back and post your entries if you want. i'll leave that open until february 28, when the first spring training game is played.
  • speaking of which: i've posted a general solicitation for in-person reportage from spring training. if you're down there for any length of time --- a day, a week, whatever --- and feel like sharing your impressions with the VEB community, post a diary or e-mail me at vivaelbirdos@yahoo.com.
  • jeff sackmann of the Hardball Times has posted his rankings of the big-league farm systems; he's got the cardinals on the rise at #23, a nice change from the days when every rater put st louis in the bottom two or three. Baseball Prospectus' kevin goldstein had the cards at #27 the other day; even that represents an improvement.
  • speaking of sackmann, an SB Nation colleague (Brew Crew Ball) and the creator of the indispensable Minor League Splits --- he's launching a new site, College Splits, that promises college-baseball data in greater detail than you've ever seen. the site should be fully functional by june's amateur draft --- and, given the cardinals' heavy emphasis on college draftees in recent years, College Splits could be a valuable tool. keep an eye on it.
  • last preliminary: charlie wilmoth, VEB's SB Nation blog brother at Bucs Dugout, has a cogent preview of the cardinals; worth a look.
ok, on to edmonds. (btw, if you haven't read danup's hall of fame case for jimmy, i recommend it.) our community projection comprises 91 responses; thanks to everybody who sent one in. the average projection was as follows:
AB AVG OBP SLG HR RBI R
07 proj 425 .272 .373 .503 25 86 79
06 act'l 350 .257 .350 .471 19 70 52

and here's the range in each category:

AB AVG OBP SLG HR RBI R
high 500 .315 .460 .588 32 112 105
low 340 .249 .320 .398 17 62 52
2006 350 .257 .350 .471 19 70 52

only the most pessimistic among us sees edmonds' numbers continuing to decline; as a community, we are almost certain that 2006 was the bottom of the barrel for edmonds. i got curious and decided to check the percentage of individuals who forecast that edmonds' numbers would decline, category by category:

AB AVG OBP SLG HR RBI R
decline 1 2 7 11 3 1 0
same 1 1 7 0 1 2 1
increase 98 97 86 89 96 97 99

you're gonna look at that and immediately think: typical hometown forceast. that's what i thought, for sure. but then i compared our aggregate numbers against those projected by the best-regarded and -established systems, and i discovered that we're anything but pie-in-sky optimists blinded by loyalty to a declining ballplayer. on the contrary, our projection is one of the more grounded ones out there:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG
Bill James 488 85 130 32  1 30 90 86 | .266 .380 .520
ZIPS 401 69 105 28  1 24 76 71 | .262 .379 .516
Marcel 388 67 104 26  1 23 74 64 | .268 .372 .518
Shandler 389 68 103 25  1 23 78 66 | .265 .372 .511
VEB 425 79 116 21  1 25 86 69 | .272 .373 .503
CHONE 396 70 100 22  1 22 65 68 | .253 .365 .480
PECOTA 340 57  86 17  1 19 60 55 | .253 .357 .476
AVERAGE 404 71 106 24  1 24 76 69 | .263 .371 .504

these are ranked in descending OPS order; of the 7 projections, ours is only the 5th-rosiest, and it's almost spot-on the overall averages in OBP and SLG. we project the highest number in only 1 category (batting average). with a couple of exceptions, these other handicappers agree with the vast majority of us that edmonds will improve in every major category; none sees edmonds declining from last year.

VEB community, you done good.

(by the way, i interpolated to derive the VEB totals for walks and doubles; vis-vis triples, i simply assigned edmonds 1, since that's what everybody else was projecting him for.)

VEB predicts more playing time for edmonds than all but 1 other forecaster. since the range of at-bats is so broad (james forecasts 40 percent more playing time than PECOTA does, and VEB forecasts 25 percent more), why don't we index everything to a set number of at-bats --- 400 is nice and round, and close to the average. i'll add runs created and RC/27 to the table; now we get:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG | RC RC/27
Bill James 400 70 106 26  1 25 74 70 | .266 .380 .520 | 78 7.19
ZIPS 400 69 105 28  1 24 76 71 | .262 .379 .516 | 77 7.04
Marcel 400 69 107 26  1 24 76 69 | .268 .372 .518 | 77 7.11
Shandler 400 70 106 25  1 24 80 68 | .265 .372 .511 | 76 6.98
VEB 400 74 109 19  1 24 81 65 | .272 .373 .503 | 75 6.99
CHONE 400 71 101 22  1 22 66 69 | .253 .365 .480 | 70 6.29
PECOTA 400 67 101 21  1 22 70 65 | .253 .357 .476 | 68 6.14

that's a pretty consistent set of projections, no? give him 400 at-bats, and all parties agree that edmonds will create 68 to 78 runs --- which would make him worth an extra win or two in 2007. may the GOB make it so.

there's clearly a lot of interest in doing further community projections. i've had a couple of excellent offers from people to help out with compiling, etc., so let's push forward and see how the interest holds up. if you guys have enough stamina to project the whole lineup and (as various people suggested) come up with a VEB community pythagorean projection, i'm game for that.

however, i don't want the projections to completely take over the front page; there will be other things to talk about as spring training unfolds. so i'll do some of the projections here, and others in a diary (with a front-page pointer, so nobody misses it). later today i'll post a projection diary for one of the pitchers, and it'll stay up all weekend; i'll put up those results monday and then move forward until a) we've done the whole team, or b) y'all get sick of community projections.

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Not to toot my own horn...but
I'm pretty proud of this comparison...I added 4 Sac Flies and 2 HBP's

    AB    R    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    BB    AVG    OBP    SLG
VEB    425    79    116    21     1    25    86    69    0.272    0.373    0.503
MINE    425    77    113    21    0    24    84    72    0.265    0.375    0.485

by cardzfanbub on Feb 16, 2007 9:39 AM EST reply actions  

Apparently...
copying and pasting from spreadsheets isn't perfect on here.

Larry,

Would it benefit you if in future projections the poster listed only the numbers in the order they were requested?  Making it easier to copy and paste into a spreadsheet...just a thought...i.e...

425
.272
.373
.500
25
86
79

by cardzfanbub on Feb 16, 2007 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

that's a good idea
though it might be better to have the numbers submitted in comma-delimited format . . . . i'll make a request in the next CP thread

by lboros on Feb 16, 2007 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha!
I was thinking the same thing.  I played with the import process.  I thought I had it working, but then someone projected edmonds to hit a total of "OBPSLG." rbi, and I gave up.  

by Jonathan23 on Feb 16, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Pasting stuff in tabular format
Here's a quick HTML tip for those of you looking to maintain your neatly formatted tables when pasting data on the forum.

Use the <code> tags.  The <code> tag replaces the standard proportional font with a fixed-width (or "monospaced") font, thereby giving each individual character the same amount of screen real estate.  Thus, the letter 'i', the letter 'm', and even blank spaces all occupy the same width on the screen.  This allows for nice, neat tables.

Example:

WITHOUT the code tag:

       AB   R    H   2B   3B   HR   RBI   BB   AVG   OBP   SLG
VEB   425  79  116   21    1   25    86   69  .272  .373  .503
MINE  425  77  113   21    0   24    84   72  .265  .375  .485

And now WITH the code tag bookending the data:

<code>
       AB   R    H   2B   3B   HR   RBI   BB   AVG   OBP   SLG
VEB   425  79  116   21    1   25    86   69  .272  .373  .503
MINE  425  77  113   21    0   24    84   72  .265  .375  .485
</code>

Also, if formatting mistakes irk you, be sure to take advantage of the forum's "Preview" key before you Post it.

Share and enjoy!

P.S.  Nice job nailing the consensus projection, cardzfanbub.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Feb 16, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

how do you enter the forward slash
or other special characters into the comments without it reading them as special characters...that's been driving me nuts lately.

by azruavatar on Feb 16, 2007 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

HTML Posting Secrets, Part II
What...you want all of my HTML secrets on the same day?

Oh, alright.  It's not really much of a secret, anyway...just a handy HTML tidbit that's little known outside of us programmer/webmaster types or HTML acolytes.

To force the browser to actually show the less-than/greater-than symbols that are used around HTML tags, you substitute the normal typed characters by using HTML's "special character" codes.

For the others who are completely unfamiliar, HTML tags are enclosed in these: < and >.  For example, surrounding your tabular data with <code> and </code> tags will change the font to preserve spacing as discussed earlier, while surrounding your text with <i> and </i> tags will make the text italic, etc.

But if I typed <code> normally in order to let you, the reader, see the HTML tag, the browser reads it as a real tag, changes the formatting accordingly, and hides the tag.  So you have to "trick" the browser into displaying the <, >, and the text in between by using the "special character" codes.

If you are familiar with the ASCII table, the arcane method used to be to type the ampersand followed by the number symbol, followed by the ASCII decimal code for the desired character followed by the semicolon, thusly:

Here are some of the basic ones:

You post     We see
---------     --------
&#38;              &
&#60;              <
&#62;              >
&#149;            •
&#153;            ™
&#169;            ©
&#188;            ¼
&#189;            ½
&#241;            ñ

But since every language has a different set of "standard" characters, this method often resulted in differing results depending upon the client PC's settings (such as the default language of the OS, etc.).

So the HTML powers-that-be came up with a uniform set of special HTML character codes that nearly all modern browsers now support.  They are also MUCH easier to remember:

You post     We see
---------     --------
&amp;              &
&lt;                   <
&gt;                  >
&spades;         ♠
&trade;            ™
&copy;             ©
&frac14;          ¼
&frac12;          ½
&ntilde;            ñ

Here's a helpful guide listing many of the ISO special HTML character codes.  That webmonkey site also has a good overall HTML cheat sheet for the curious.

For the rest of you who could care less about HTML, I apologize for the long non-baseball related post, and I now feel compelled to put something in here that is clearly baseball related.  Ummm...the ©ubs suck!

That is all.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Feb 16, 2007 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome list
thanks for sharing
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 17, 2007 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

i love goldstein, but his comment
sorta irked me. the whole "colby and a bunch of 4th outfielders and middle relievers" thing...i know the system isn't that good, but i wouldn't characterize that way.

by erik on Feb 16, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions  

I feel the same way
we do have those guys but neither Hawksworth nor Garcia are those guys.  It's likely that Ottavino isn't either and neither is Bryan Anderson.  And if Tyler Greene and Mark McCormick ever figure it out, they won't be either.  Daryl Jones is raw, but he'll either be very good or never make it.  He won't be Cody Haerther.

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

GOB?
George Oscar Bluth?
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 16, 2007 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

COME ON!
I thought exactly the same thing when I read this.  I eventually figured out that he meant Gods of Baseball, but it's much funnier to imagine GOB riding in on his Segway with "The Final Countdown" playing in the background, commanding Edmonds to create runs while lighter fluid spews from his sleeve.  

Sigh.  I miss that show.  

by Mr Bad Example on Feb 16, 2007 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

well
that would be quite the trick. er, illiusion.

by lookit on Feb 16, 2007 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Right on
Go JEd Go!! This is OT, but has everybody seen this (sorry if it's already been posted somewhere):

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6476512?MSNHPHMA

Can you believe it? I don't care how much money they spend--the Cubs are the Cubs.

by rockin redbird on Feb 16, 2007 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

sounds like
his mechanics in the jacuzzi are about like his mechanics on the mound!

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2007 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

And I just heard
that Mark Prior twisted his shoulder trying to hand Wood a towel :-)

by rockin redbird on Feb 16, 2007 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

If I were a Cubs fan...
I would be concerned.  These guys have a long season of simulated games ahead of them.  Aren't Prior and Wood the all time leaders in simulated games won?  If not they must be close.

by OCCardsFan on Feb 16, 2007 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

No doubt...
and you know this is just the first of the usual series of unfortunate events that will surely lead to another .500 season or worse. I don't believe in curses, but there is definately something strange going on up north. Hendry better get that Z contract in order before Z figures out he might actually win the Cy if he played for a better team in 08.

by rockin redbird on Feb 16, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Wood and Prior
Soon to be joined by Griffey...no doubt there
Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
2006 WS for JB and DK57

by cardsfan84 on Feb 16, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm glad to see
the community and other projections rosier on Edmonds than I was.  Mine was pretty well in line w/ last year's -- a little better but not much.  I will say that I had forgotten about Edmonds' shoulder surgery which, I hope, will bring back some of the power that was lost last year.  But I remember sometimes watching him hit, he'd hit one that 2 or 3 years ago would've been in the RF bullpen and last year was off the wall or a deep fly to right.  Maybe if I had remembered the surgery my outlook would've been a little better and more in line w/ everyone else's.  I hope you're all right!

by chuckb on Feb 16, 2007 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

Fantasy Baseball
Have the VEB leagues been set up yet?
Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
2006 WS for JB and DK57

by cardsfan84 on Feb 16, 2007 3:24 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know if anyone saw this
but I found it interesting, apparently Izzy is learning a changeup from my personal favorite 2-seam fastball/changeup pitcher, Anthony Reyes.

http://www.stltoday.com/blogs/sports-bird-land/2007/02/camp-cardinal-la-russas-opening-remarks/#more -9708

by TICY on Feb 16, 2007 4:21 PM EST reply actions  

Brad Penny
word on the street (internet) that the dodgers are about to make a big move.  they are dangling brad penny as trade bait.

i'd love me some brad penny.... (he says in a very non-sexual way).

by busch league on Feb 16, 2007 4:25 PM EST reply actions  

FANTASY BASEBALL UPDATE
MY LEAGUE IS UP!!!!

VEB League #1
Roto
12 team max
yahoo default settings
live draft on March 9th (friday) at 4:30 PM (though this can still be changed) and if you can't make it you can pre-rank.
Email me at agrobe1473@earthlink.net to get the password and invite...first eleven.

http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/vebnumber1

by stlcardinalsfang on Feb 16, 2007 5:47 PM EST reply actions  

Bennett/Marrero
My assumption is that Marrero is likely to start the year at AAA but all this talk about him catching has me wondering if there is any chance he could beat out Snowcone for the backup role.  I don't see much downside to it.  Marrero certainly offers more pop and I don't think you lose too much from Snowcone as a receiver.

My thought is the contract situation will preclude this and I can't imagine Tony will carry three catchers.  So I guess he is just injury insurance?

Anyone have thoughts about the chances that Marrero could beat out Bennett?

by OCCardsFan on Feb 16, 2007 6:24 PM EST reply actions  

Bennett's contract isn't the problem
Gary's getting paid 900K for next season.

This is going to be the contest I watch most carefully this spring.  The pitching is going to be interesting, but I'd sure like to see Marrero catch on with the club this season.

Bennett's line last season will definitely give Eli a shot to take his job.  Bennett hit .223, with a .274 OPS and .331 SLG.  His defense was nothing spectacular, either, with 3 errors in 56 games(43 starts).  That's nothing special, as Yadi only made 4 in 127 games.

Eli will have to show up ready to play to take the backup catching job.  He has the capability to be a much better hitter than Bennett (or Molina, for that matter).  It's his defense that will have to shine for him to beat out Bennett.  Eli hasn't been behind the plate hardly at all in quite a while, appearing in only 13 games as a catcher since 2002.  If he can still handle the glove behind the plate, he could definitely take Bennett's job.

by Phyrkrakr on Feb 16, 2007 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Eli
I hope he makes the club.  Tony has some high praise: "He's one of the most talented athletes we've had here in all the time I've been around." If he is healthy, perhaps he can have a year that realizes his potential.  Yadi will be better for it.

by Yadier on Feb 16, 2007 9:53 PM EST reply actions  

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