Future Hall of Famers

by stl3bagger on Feb 12, 2007 11:49 PM EST Comment 62 comments

So the other night in my fight with insomnia I was thinking about the future Hall of Famers playing actively right now. After thinking about it, I came to realize that I believe that only one team has more future HoFs on their roster than our very own Cardinals. Therefore I have set out to pick these players out. These are all players that I feel are currently HoFs or are very close to being HoFs. This is only a projections based on my thoughts and opinions. I didn't research numbers. These are just my thoughts after watching too much baseball year after year.

St. Louis Cardinals
As I see it, the Cards have 4 future HoFs on the roster.

*    Pujols - I believe he will challenge Musial for the distinction of the greatest Cardinal ever.
*    Rolen - Right now I think he is the 3rd greatest 3bagger of all time, behind Schmidt and just behind Brooks Robinson.
*    Edmonds - Our generation's Willie Mays.
*    Carpenter - Still needs to put together 4 or 5 good years but well on the wall to the hall.

Now I will analyze each team. Some players I will comment on, some I won't. Remember there is no real rhyme or reason to my picks, just my thoughts.

NL East

NY Mets
    2 HoFs
*    Glavine - No doubter
*    Beltran - Needs a couple more good years but well on his way
Atlanta Braves
    3 HoFs
*    Chipper Jones
*    Andruw Jones
*    John Smoltz - Man he would look good in a Cards jersey
Washington Nationals
    Ummm NO
Florida Marlins
    1 HoFs
*    Miguel Cabrera - He has a long ways to go but so far his stats are scary good
Philadelphia Phillies
    Right now I don't see anyone coming close yet to talking about

NL Central

Chicago Cubs
    1 HoF
*    Alfonso Soriano - Not a huge fan or him but has big numbers if looked at as a 2nd baseman, still think has a long ways to go but on his way.
Milwaukee Brewers
    No one right now to talk about. If Ben Sheets ever stayed healthy, I believe he could have been the best pitcher in the NL for quite a few years.
Houston Astros
    1 HoF
*    Craig Biggio - lock for the HoF
If Andre Dawson ever gets in, then you might be able to consider Carlos Lee.
Pittsburg Pirates
No
Cincy Reds
    1 HoF
*    Griffey - No Discussion needed

NL West

LA Dodgers
    Right now I see no HoFs on this roster. I know the debate can be made for Nomar and Schmidt, but if I were a voter, they wouldn't have my votes.
Arizona Dbacks
    1 HoF
*    Randy Johnson - absolute lock
Colorado Rockies
    1 HoF
*    Helton - This is my thought only on reputation. I need to look more at his numbers to see if he deserves this.
San Diego Padres
    2 HoFs
*    Maddux - 2nd best pitcher of our generation
*    Hoffman - absolute lock
San Fransico Giants
    3 HoFs
*    Omar Vizquel - little Ozzie
*    Barry Zito - needs a couple more good years but on the right path
*    Barry Bonds - I'm ignoring the steroids debate, sick and tired or it.

Now for the American League

AL East

NY Yankees
    5 Hofs - This is the only team I see that has more future HoFs on the roster than the Cards
*    Mariano Rivera
*    Derek Jeter
*    Mike Mussina - this guy very often gets looked over but has put up huge numbers for both the Yanks and Orioles
*    Alex Rodriguez
*    Andy Pettite
Boston Red Sox
    3 HoFs
*    Manny Ramirez
*    Curt Schilling
*    David Ortiz - His debate will be very interesting. I think he better put together a couple more amazing years to have a chance.
Baltimore Orioles
    1 HoF
*    Miguel Tejada - Never gets enough credit for how good he really is.
Tampa Bay DevilRays
    No one at this point in time
Toronto BlueJays
    2 HoFs
*    Roy Halladay - needs to stay healthy but definetly has the ability to put up the numbers
*    Frank Thomas

AL Central

Chicago White Soxs
    Right now I see no one getting in the Hall. I am a huge Thome fan but he seems like a player the voters aren't a huge fan of. He's the only player with a realistic chance right now.
Cleveland Indians
    No one, but we need to revisit this team in a couple of years, lots of really good talent.
Minnesota Twinkies
    1 HoF
*    Johan Santana - He's kinda good.
Detroit Tigers
    2 HoFs
*    Ivan Rodriguez - He may be the best catcher ever.
*    Gary Sheffield - Despite his character, he has been a good player for awhile now.
Kansas City Royals
    Surprise no one. However give some love to Mike Sweeney, he's an excellent player. Too bad he always played for the Royals.

AL West

LA Angels
    1 HoF
*    Vladimir Guerrero - It has to be a blast watching him hit every day for your team.
Oakland A's
    1 HoF
*    Mike Piazza - I wonder what its like having a catcher who can hit. ( A thought in every Card fan's mind)
Seattle Mariners
    Nope. Ichiro probably deserves it but I doubt voters will take his number from Japan in consideration. At the very least he meant a lot to MLB relationship with Asia.
Texas Rangers
    Not on this roster.

Well I know this will cause great debate and banter but its February, I'm bored, and its something to talk about. One interesting things I noticed, the Cards have more future HoFs than all of the AL Central. But feel free to rip apart everything I said, that's what its here for.

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Comments

interesting

alot of names on your list still need alot of stats to get in but it was some good reading. i do agree smoltz would look good in cardinal red

SWH

by BRINGBACKWILSON on Feb 13, 2007 12:13 AM EST reply actions

Uh,

just to point out, in the very first part of your post, you neglected Brett, Home Run Baker, and Eddie Matthews.

A lot more to comment on here, but just to point out you have 37 active HoFers in the Bigs right now. There have been about ~25 guys elected since Rod Carew in 1990 who retired in 1985.

by plh903 on Feb 13, 2007 1:53 AM EST reply actions

Pedro

doesn't make the cut for you?

I think Edmonds, Carp, and possibly even Rolen if he doesn't put up some better years, will have a hard time getting in. I think Jimmy Ballgame deserves it, but I can't see the voters putting him in.

by TICY on Feb 13, 2007 2:43 AM EST reply actions

Agreed

Pujols is probably the only HOFer on the Birds. The other three are all in the Ray Lankford wing.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 3:11 AM EST up reply actions

Edmonds

If he gets 400 homers, he should be inducted.

His defense alone makes him a worthy candidate.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
2006 WS for JB and DK57

by cardsfan84 on Feb 13, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions

Rolen

Defense has to count for something.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
2006 WS for JB and DK57

by cardsfan84 on Feb 13, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions

I see

13 Locks: Glavine, Pedro, Smoltz, Griffey, Johnson, Maddux, Bonds, Rivera, Jeter, A-Rodriguez, Manny, Thomas, Piazza

and

8 Debatables: Biggio, Hoffman, Pettite, Mussina, Schilling, Pudge, Sheffield, Vlad

The rest (Pujols included) need a few more years of production to get their busts ready. There are a lot of good players on your list, but Tejada, Ortiz, et al. all have a long way to go.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 3:21 AM EST reply actions

There have been a couple of

terrific cases made for Edmonds. Now, I don't think he would get in, especially if he hung 'em up tomorrow, but I think a VERY strong case can be made that he should get in. 400 and 2,000 are obviously big stumbling blocks for him though, I think.

You certainly have to list him as a debatable, when Snider, Puckett, Doby, and Ashburn are all in the Hall. I also understand the circumstances surrounding Puckett and especially Doby, but Snider and Ashburn bode well for him. He is outclassed by the Big 5, Griffey withstanding, but as far as ML HOF CFer's go, he sits real nicely in that second tier.

Throw in a couple of guys like Hack and Little Poison and you've practically made his case, without talking about just how damn good he has been since 2000. With several very good years before that. Eye-popping defense and you've got yourself a "debatable" to say the least.

by plh903 on Feb 13, 2007 4:48 AM EST up reply actions

I agree with you

But I don't think any non-Cards fan has ever thought twice about whether or not Jimmy might be a HOFer. He has had five great seasons, and six good ones -- a remarkable career. But in today (and yesterday's) era, I don't think his numbers will be close enough to garner much support.

I'm not sayin' I won't be telling my kids about him, I'm just sayin'...

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 4:59 AM EST up reply actions

8 Gold Gloves

to go along with some great offensive years.
Thats why he'll be strongly considered for the Hall of Fame.

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Feb 13, 2007 10:18 AM EST up reply actions

Si

"eye-popping defense"

by plh903 on Feb 14, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions

Jimmy

he's closer than I thought he was but he isn't there yet. I was comparing his #'s to the average HOF CF about a week or so ago, and he's getting really close. Jay Jaffe from Baseball Prospectus likes to do this to determine how worthy a player is of inclusion. If the next 2 years are his last years, they need to be slightly better than last year's was in order to merit inclusion. Two more years similar to last year's I think would put him on the outside looking in. As for Rolen and Carp, they're not there yet. Rolen may get there but my gut tells me Carp won't. If he can put together 3-4 more years where he wins a couple of Cy's -- maybe. But his career really took off too late I think for him to end up in Cooperstown.

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 12:39 PM EST up reply actions

Hoffman and Pudge are in

Hoffman has the numbers, which in baseball counts for everything. No way you keep out a guy who has racked up those saves.

Pudge was the elite offensive catcher in the league while simultaneously winning Gold Gloves (not the greatest stat, I know, but the voters look at it pretty favorably) at the toughest defensive position on the field. Plus he went to Florida and carried that '03 Marlins team to a title, and he's not done yet. Unless you're making a steroid argument (which it doesn't appear that you are considering your inclusion of Bonds as a lock), I count him.

by Zack Morris on Feb 13, 2007 10:09 AM EST up reply actions

If Lee Smith isn't in

I don't think Hoffman should be.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 10:24 AM EST up reply actions

You're probably right

but it's absolutely insane that Vlad is less of a lock than effing Jeter. David Ortiz perhaps has a shot. Frank Thomas is probably deserving, and if he puts up another year like last year, he'll end up well over 500 HR. I agree that Pudge is probably almost certainly a lock, and I wonder how the voters are going to react to Piazza, and his awesome 10 second throw to second.

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions

Vlad

needs about three more seasons of production (which he'll probably get) to have serious consideration. He is one of those special players, though, that I'd be willing to make a road trip in order to see in person. Or, if you will, the bizzaro Biggio.

If Piazza would have cut his losses five years ago and just became a DH then, a lot of people would have forgotten about his craptastic defensive prowress. Although, This is still one of my favorite lines from last postseason.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions

Biggio is not debatable

and neither is Pudge. Pitchers are tricky, but Sheffield will get in. And of course, I am leaving steroids out of this for our purposes. Maybe that's what you are referring to.

From here on out it's all about health for Rolen. 5+ more years of .850 OPS? Stamp it. But who knows how his career will turn out, I personally think he has plenty of decent years left. No one really knows the answer to that though. BP pegged him for the Hall, if healthy, on his 2005 PECOTA card.

Really though, Edmonds and Rolen will be thought of as the best glove men at their positions since Robinson and Mays, or Speaker and Clete Boyer. Throw in respective OPS+'s of 129 (Rolen) and 141 (Edmonds) and you have a tough time keeping them out. It's all about padding two counting stats for Jim I believe. Unfortunate.

by plh903 on Feb 13, 2007 5:01 AM EST reply actions

Reply to this is great!

whoops

by plh903 on Feb 13, 2007 5:02 AM EST up reply actions

Ooops

You're right, Biggio isn't debatable; he'll get in. I don't necessarily think he deserves it, but he'll get in. (I mean really, watching the Astros, have you ever said to yourself "Wow! Here comes the Craig Biggio! I'll be telling my grandkids about this!"? He just never got hurt and was above average. That's his HOF credentials.)

Pudge? Him too, except he deserves it.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 5:19 AM EST up reply actions

3000 hits from a keystoner

sounds deserving to me. And I did think that at one point, it's just that I was 15 years old--not the grandkids part, no. Anyway, in his five year peak from 1993-1998, he was pretty fearsome. After that, not so much. He has still OPS'd around .800 more often then not since then, but it's not really a kick in the pants.

He was channeling Eddie Collins there for a while though. (Ok, not peak Eddie Collins)

He and Bagwell are the reason that I haven't driven down to Houston with the sole intention to burn down whatever shithole the team plays in at some point in my life. I really hate the Astros. Yet, I like guys with pine tar on their helmets.

by plh903 on Feb 13, 2007 9:14 AM EST up reply actions

Aaaaaaaaannd

that's six years. Math is hard.

by plh903 on Feb 13, 2007 9:15 AM EST up reply actions

Carpenter

I don't see him getting in, unless he pitches at a top level for another 8-10 years. When you look at his whole career, he's had more bad years in Toronto than good years in St. Louis.

by Baseball addict on Feb 13, 2007 8:19 AM EST reply actions

Great post, lots of

room for debate here! My $.02 re Ortiz is that his downhill slide will be fast and very similar to Mo Vaughn's. No Big Papi in the HOF.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 13, 2007 11:13 AM EST reply actions

Rolen Defense

I honestly think Rolen is a lock for the Hall of Fame, but lets back it up with numbers.

First his average stat year stat line-

Avg. .285 HR's 29
OBP .375 RBI's 111
SLG .515

He has close to 1500 hits, 250+ Hr's, and close to 1000 RBI's for his career.
5 time allstar, 7 Gold Gloves, and won Rookie of the year

Now lets compare that to hall of fame 3baggers.

George Brett

First of all Brett played 20 seasons so its unfair to put the raw stats together and compare them. But Brett's season averages are these-
AVG .305 OBP .369 SLG .487
Hr's 19 RBI's 95
And only 1 Gold Glove
Rolen is very compareable, even maybe better. However Brett's longevity is the only thing that has him looking better than Rolen

Brooks Robinson

Robinson played 22 seasons.
Season averages
AVG .267 OBP .322 SLG .401
HR's 15 RBI's 76

Doesn't even compare to Mr. Rolen. And the great debate is which of the two was better on defense.

Mike Schmidt

Played 17 seasons
3-time MVP
10 Gold Gloves

However look at his season averages he's not that far ahead of Rolen.
AVG .267 OBP .380 SLG .527
HR's 37 RBI's 107

SO what does this all say. If you just think about the players I think its obvious Rolen is a Hall of Famers. Think about it, Who has been a better 3rd baseman in the Majors during the last 10 years? BUt if you look and break down the stats, Rolen is also in the HoF realm. Most HoFs only have more years on him. If Rolen stays at his current playing level for rest of his contract he is a no doubter.

by stl3bagger on Feb 13, 2007 12:24 PM EST reply actions

You need to remove all of those players'

decline phases from their rate stats in order to make a fair comparison. Brooks Robinson slugged .274 and .307 his last two seasons.

Mike Schmidt was also clearly not himself his last two seasons.

You can't just go and look at players 162 game averages and consider them equivalent. Rolen hasn't had a chance to get old and play horribly, and have some bad late seasons to drag averages down.

Also, longevity is an accomplishment, and should be a major HOF criterion--these guys played at or above Rolen's level, but for twice as long. He's got a very good chance, but he also has a long way to go

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 12:42 PM EST up reply actions

Pujols

I was thinking about this the other day -- How many more years of Pujols-level play, does Albert have to put in before he's a lock for the HOF? In other words, if he were to suffer a career-ending injury right now, would he be a Hall of Famer? I doubt it but I'd think that after another year or 2, if he maintains his level of production, he'd be a lock for Cooperstown, regardless of how the rest of his career turns out.

How many people could retire at 29 or 30 and be a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Not very many!

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 12:43 PM EST reply actions

I wondered this once about Griffey, Jr.

If he had simply retired rather than becoming a Red, I wonder if he would have been a HOFer. I always wondered what it would take for an offensive player to get in via the Sandy Koufax rule

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions

See: Puckett, Kirby

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 13, 2007 12:54 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah.

good point

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions

If Pujols retired in 2 years (God forbid)

he'd have somewhere in the neighborhood of 340-350 homers. Aside from that, however, he'd have several years of being the best player in the game, bar none, with seemingly no weakness. He'd have to be a hall of famer, even w/ "only" 350 dingers.

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 6:25 PM EST up reply actions

And I would argue that Adam Dunn

is pretty well on his way. His comparables are a strange random assemblage of flameouts and some of the best players ever. But he might have a shot at the all time HR record before all is said and done.

That, and 'big donkey' is a truly hilarious nickname.

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 12:57 PM EST reply actions

I don't agree

he may be on his way to being hall-worthy, but I don't believed he's perceived as being as good a player as he is by potential voters. And he's a defensive liability, to say the least. I think he's underrated as an offensive player and isn't helped out by his defense. You may be right that he's worthy but so is Bert Blyleven.

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 6:27 PM EST up reply actions

To me, a year is a year

Yes the last couple years of both Schmidt and Robinson were terrible but by the same agrument so was Rolen's stats in 2005. So you could pick an choose whichs years to use and which not to use but i see as using every year in your stats because you played, you take your stats. However what this argument does prove is how stats aren't everything. Imagine Roger Clemens playing this year and somehow goes 3-15 with a 6.50 ERA. Does that diminish anything he has done in his career? Stats wise, yes. But common baseball sense, No. Voters get too caught up in stats when they should only be a tool in deciding who gets in the Hall. SImply put, was this player one of the best player at his position during his career. As for Schmidt, Yes As for Robinson, Yes And as for Rolen,Yes.

by stl3bagger on Feb 13, 2007 1:06 PM EST reply actions

It's not cherrypicking

everyone gets worse as they age. It would be fairer to take everyone through their first nine seasons, or to take everyone through their age 31 season or whatever. It isn't fair to simply compare players' raw rate stats to each other when you are comparing sitting HOFers and active players that are still at their career peak.

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 1:14 PM EST up reply actions

Hall of Famers

Around induction time last year, I blogged about the HOF and who I thought would go in.

I agree with much of your choices.

Anyone with 300 wins, 3,000ks, 3,000 hits, or 500 homers are automatic locks for the HOF. Given the steroids era, that will be hard. Big Mac belongs in there.

Rather than comment on every player again, here's the links to my analysis:
the 2006 candidates for induction in 2007
Active pitchers
Hitters

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
2006 WS for JB and DK57

by cardsfan84 on Feb 13, 2007 1:46 PM EST reply actions

What about Rafael Palmiero?

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 4:08 PM EST up reply actions

Palmerio

Factor in the steroids suspension and I'm not so sure. It's a wait and see on what happens with Mark McGwire given the whole steroids debate.

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat
2006 WS for JB and DK57

by cardsfan84 on Feb 13, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions

2, not 4

Pujols will be a lock after 2-3 more good years.
Ditto for Rolen.
Edmonds is close, but just misses the cut unless we can win the WS this year and next to finish out his career.
Too early to talk about Carp. He needs to win AT LEAST 2 more CY Young awards to be considered HOF caliber. He is hurt by the injuries/late start.

Come on You Redbirds--Mike Shannon

by BluesDrummer85 on Feb 13, 2007 3:22 PM EST reply actions

the biggest thing is

that alot of the guys need more numbers.

should be in

biggio,johnson,clemmens,maddux,piazza,jeter,
glavine,smoltz,pedro,griffey,bonds,rivera,
manny,arod,big mac

??????
thomas,thome,

needs more

everybody else

i feel that pujols,edmonds,and rolen will all be hall of famers. that is just my opinion

CARDINALS NEED TO RETIRE MCGEE'S # 51

SWH

by BRINGBACKWILSON on Feb 13, 2007 3:26 PM EST reply actions

you are completely insane

edmonds is not a hall of fame player, he has been very good.

carpenter has had 3 good seasons, he is not a hall of famer.

rolen has been above average but he is about the 5th best third baseman in the majors right now and is therefore not a hall of famer. a rod, cabrera, a ram, and wright are all better.

right now papi is not a hall of famer.\

zito is nowhere close to being a hall of famer

andruw jones is not

soriano is not (yet)

carlos lee is absolutely laughable

todd helton is not

im not sold on trevor hoffman

interestingly, you have left off two guys that defintely have the potential to be - ryan howard and d train willis. they are both young enough and have the potential to be good for a long time.

bill mazeroski thinks that a lot of the guys on your list shouldnt be in the hall of fame.

hit em where they aint

by thefordhamflash on Feb 13, 2007 5:56 PM EST reply actions

3rd basemen

"he is about the 5th best third baseman in the majors right now and is therefore not a hall of famer. a rod, cabrera, a ram, and wright are all better."

I disagree. A-rod is obviously better offensively, but (depending on the metric you use) Rolen is competitive with the other 4. Wright and cabrera are about a wash (but improving) though rolen has put up better Warp3's than wright's best season 3 times, so he still has a long way to go. cabrera's 2006 was better than anything Rolen has done, but his 2004 and 2005, as well as he played, was less valuable than typical uninjured Rolen. Aram is not in the same league offensively; his two BEST seasons are less valuable (using WARP3) than rolen's 2006 "off year", and he is likely done improving and ready to begin his decline phase.

Rolen vs Cabrera, wright
Rolen vs A-rod, A-ram

linked to RC/27 because it's easy to see but WARP and eqa pretty much line right up.

Defensively, Rolen is significantly better than anyone in the game today. He has a chance on that alone. I think it'll really come down to longevity, he'll need to get close to 500 HR and unless he puts up 6 or 7 more strong seasons he won't be good enough offensively to qualify.

"...in winter, when there's no baseball... I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Feb 13, 2007 7:06 PM EST up reply actions

not only that

but he's not comparing apples to apples. He's comparing Wright and Cabrera at their peaks to Rolen at age 31. It's safe to say that neither Wright nor Cabrera will be the best 3B in the league when they're 31 either. Rolen needs 3-4 more good seasons, not Cabrera-like seasons, but good seasons and he'll be there. I'm not sure his body will hold up enough for him to get it done, but he's certainly got a better than average chance.

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 10:33 PM EST up reply actions

There's no way

to disagree with someone without calling them insane? Also, perhaps if you backed up your opinions with some reasoning or evidence, people might find your statements to be more worthwhile. You might even consider starting a diary explaining why you think "x" belongs in the hall of fame and "y" does not. Just a suggestion.

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions

Completely insane

You sound like Skip Bayless.

How are you not sold on Trevor Hoffman? If Bruce Sutter is in then Hoffman is an absolute lock.

by Baseball addict on Feb 14, 2007 12:03 PM EST up reply actions

Thomas

I saw Frank Thomas for years in Chicago. Awful defense, a clubhouse cancer, fans and press didn't like him, selfish, and I can't ever remember thinking "Here's a future HOF'r" when he stepped up to plate.

by The Duke on Feb 13, 2007 6:42 PM EST reply actions

perhaps

but he's averaged a .990 OPS over 17 seasons, and will cross the 500HR threshold this year. So ya gotta let him in...

"...in winter, when there's no baseball... I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by SleepyCA on Feb 13, 2007 7:23 PM EST up reply actions

really?

'cause seeing any pitcher I liked pitching to that dude always scared me.

by Valatan on Feb 13, 2007 8:05 PM EST up reply actions

I really don't like him

but he's an automatic hall-of-famer. No doubt about it.

by chuckb on Feb 13, 2007 10:30 PM EST up reply actions

he's probably

the best hitter of the 90s. And then he also had an MVP-caliber season in 2000 and another great year in 2006. And the fans and the press are retarded.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 14, 2007 1:31 AM EST up reply actions

For his first nine years

Every time he came to the plate I thought "This is the greatest hitter I will probably ever see." And until Albert came along, I honestly believed that. He's a HOFer.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 14, 2007 1:37 AM EST up reply actions

I bet you have a BBWAA vote.

by plh903 on Feb 14, 2007 9:50 AM EST up reply actions

No vote

Not a writer. The stats don't tell the story. He no doubt put up some great numbers, but he showed no leadership and didn't carry his team. Put another way -- he's a great player for simulated baseball, but never helped his team win the big one. Witness Ozzie dissing him in 2005 and Ozzie knew him better than anyone from those 90's teams. "It's good to have him here because now he sees a winning attitude, because he was part of the bad attitude," Guillen said. "Franky was a big part of the bad attitude. Now he can see how we're handling stuff and why we're winning everyday.

by The Duke on Feb 14, 2007 1:04 PM EST up reply actions

You'd keep him out

because of a bad attitude? The stats do tell the story, of the fact that he was possibly the best hitter in baseball over a decade.

Ty Cobb was a racist, should be be left out?

Who gives a fuck what Ozzie Guillen said about him? It's not the Mutual of Omaha Jr. Executive Leadership Hall of Fame. It's the Baseball Hall of Fame. Frank Thomas was an extraordinary talent and player, take off the white wig.

by plh903 on Feb 14, 2007 1:12 PM EST up reply actions

Thomas

For me it's about winning, not just putting up great stats. And I think, in his case, he impacted wins negatively especially by refusing to DH. I always suspected he was more concerned about being able to get into Hall of Fame as DH, than whether he was hurting/helping his team by staying in the field. Name another player of his caliber that had his managers and general managers openly complaining about his negative affect on the team. White Sox never won a pennant with him and I would argue one of the reasons they won in 2005 is that he got hurt.

by The Duke on Feb 14, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions

Impacted wins negatively?

I'm sorry, but just how much is he giving away on defense out there? Maybe something like Ryan Howard was last year? I know he was pretty terrible with the glove, save a couple of years in which he was passable, but that's why he was at first base. He also didn't want to become a career DH, and I don't really blame him for that. He worked hard on his D, and like I said, for a while became serviceable. It's baseball, if he wants to stay in the field during the prime of his career, that's fine.

He was also, arguably, the best hitter of the nineties, and led to teams to 95 and 94 wins. I don't remember a whole lot of complaining about him until Ozzie came to town, and that's Ozzie being his ridiculous self. You can't name a whole lot of players of his caliber, and if they were before him, I was too young to remember them. How about Ted Williams? He was crucified for years in Boston. Anyhow, that's speaks towards the writers and managers douchebaggery more than anything, they were incredible incredible hitters, and the largest contributors to there teams offense(!) negative impact(!), no one is running for Congress.

You're right, he was "impacting wins negatively" when he led the team in OPS for 10 of 13 years, 7 straight, or something stupid like that. They wouldn't have won many of the games they did without him.

Once again, get off the high horse. Thomas should and will be in.

by plh903 on Feb 14, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions

wait, wait

so they won the world series because their best hitter got hurt? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

And also, he long maintained that he hit better as a first baseman, and the numbers bear it out: he's hit .337/.453/.625 when he was in the field, .277/.399/.515 as a DH. I'd rather have the .450 OBP than a good defensive first baseman.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 14, 2007 6:05 PM EST up reply actions

Winning

Taking out his four partial seasons with the Sox, here are the records of Thomas' teams. Lots and lots of wins in there.

1991 87-75 .537 2nd in AL West
1992 86-76 .531 3rd in AL West
1993 94-68 .580 1st in AL West
1994 67-46 .593 1st in AL Central
1995 68-76 .472 3rd in AL Central
1996 85-77 .525 2nd in AL Central
1997 80-81 .497 2nd in AL Central
1998 80-82 .494 2nd in AL Central
1999 75-86 .466 2nd in AL Central
2000 95-67 .586 1st in AL Central
2002 81-81 .500 2nd in AL Central
2003 86-76 .531 2nd in AL Central
2006 93-69 .574 1st in AL West

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 15, 2007 12:36 AM EST up reply actions

Buddy Biancalana

I think he has been totally overlooked during the years. Sure, he had a lifetime .205 BA, but he did slug .293. Also, last but not least, actually it probably is, he has such a great name!

Buddy Biancalana

http://whiteyball.wordpress.com

by whiteyball on Feb 14, 2007 9:07 AM EST reply actions

frank thomas is defintely a hall of famer

he was the 2nd or 3rd best hitter of the 90's (tied with gwynn in my mind). he had some absolutely monster years with the sox.

the reason that i am not a true beleiver in hoffman is because i am not a beleiver in relief pitchers particularly closers. for me "saves" are the most worthless category in baseball other than wins. i do not think that sutter, smith, gossage, or fingers are really hall of fame worthy. bill james has written an excellent book about this titled "whatever happened to the hall of fame". it seems like the hall of fame has really lowered it standards for entrance.

hit em where they aint

by thefordhamflash on Feb 14, 2007 11:31 PM EST reply actions

Edmonds defense for the Hall

Well since we are doing the Edmonds projection today I thought I would present the case of Edmonds as a HoF. First off, He is clearly not a first ballot guy. But I would project him as a 3 or 4 time ballot guy.

His stats
An average year
AVG .289 OBP .382 SLG .539
Hr's - 33 Rbi - 102

Raw stats -
14 years
over 1700 hits
350 HRs
4 allstar games
8 Gold Gloves

It can be easily said during his playing time he was the best defense CF in baseball and one of best overall defenders. CF is seen as the 2nd hardest position defensely (SS being first).

Now lets compare him to the latest HoF CF, Kirby Puckett

Average year-
AVG .318 OBP .360 SLG .477
HRs -19 RBIs- 99

Raw stats
2304 hits
207 HRs
10 Allstar
6 gold gloves

Two very comparable players. Think about it, each have made one of the greatest catches in postseason history (Puckett's robbery of the braves, Edmonds robbery of the Astros).

Im guessing Edmonds has two years left. Thats should allow him to reach 2000 hits, 400 HRs. Puckett has a higher AVg., but their OBP will end up being equal(OBP is what matters anyways, not much difference between a walk and a single, both get you to first base).

I think its obvious that Edmonds is a HoF. Just ask pitchers, Edmonds has always been feared by pitchers. This man can change a game with one swing (ask Astro fans). Plus he is one of the greatest defense players in the history of the game. It may take a ballot year or two, but I can't see how he can be left out.

by stl3bagger on Feb 15, 2007 1:43 PM EST reply actions

I've been going over his case

at my site, and it's a pretty strong one.

by DanUpBaby on Feb 15, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions

my pair of penny's

rolen and edmonds and carp are in the same boat. jimmy is the closest and might get in now with his d, but 2000 hits 400 hrs will go along way. Rolen is still to close to call his defense is also helping him big time but, he has a chance have 2500 hits and that with at least 400 hrs and 1500 rbi will get him in.

Now carp, in this age of greater hitting, which hurts jimmy and rolen, it could actually prop carp into the hall. carp has an almost.600 win %, if he can keep that get his career era under 4 (currently 4.08) and keep his approx. 2.5 to 1 k rate he has a chance. few pitchers of the current era, will get in so the standards won't be as hard, of the locks to get in most will be done in 2 or 3 years, rivera going longer, smoltz could go longer if he goes back to closing.

by elirock83 on Feb 15, 2007 3:52 PM EST reply actions