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Reyes Thoughts - Sorry In Advance

i started this as a comment in the hot stove diary but when it started to get over two paragraphs i decided to just make it a diary.  i don't want this to be a 4-seam/2-seam diary or a reyes has lost his stuff thread.

i want to take a look at reyes perception and see if the that is close or far from the truth.

First off, reyes value to the organization. a lot of people seem to think that the cardinals are under the impression that reyes can't help this team.  in particular tony. i think people are confusing tony's dislike of reyes/ryan/drew/etc because of their abilities.  as smart as tony is you cannot tell me he thinks that those kids can't play.  i have always interpreted tony's  actions toward the youngin's as a general dislike for young cocky kids.  he feels that they should have to earn a place at the table.  you can't tell me that in your profession if a young cocky kid came into your office you would greet him with open arms and give him every advantage you could.  no, you would make them earn a spot in the office.  that is the same way Tony thinks right or wrong as it may be.  i bet tony loved that reyes got knocked down a peg or two and now wants to build him back up.

going from memory, in the interviews with Tony after Reyes starts he was pretty defensive of Reyes most of the time.  he would say things like "reyes deserved better than that" when speaking of the run support.  he would say things about reyes pitching well.  he was more critical of the offense then he was reyes.

i would say that the number one reason for reyes' horrible year was the offense!  if he gets 4.68 runs a game in support (as wainer did) he is 5-2 at the end of may.  that is astronomically better than 0-8.  then for the year he is 13-7.  before that last game at phillie he had a 5.69 era.  a pitcher that's 13-6 with a 5.69 era...  that's our bread and butter.  we lived off those kinds of pitchers.  suppan, marqus, mulder...  looper was 12-12 last year with a 4.94 era getting over 5 runs of support a game.  he is guaranteed a spot and thought to have had a decent yeat around here.  if reyes gets those same 5 runs he is 17-1.  now obviously that's a little far fetched.  when was the last time you saw a pitcher with a 6.04 ear go 17-1.  but i think it shows how much the offense hurt reyes last year (he got 3.1 runs in support btw - last for pitchers with over 100 innings).

we all talk about the biggest problem he has is giving up the one big inning.  can't that be fixed?  can't you gameplan with him better so he has more success in those situations?  wouldn't 13-7 be a phenomenal year for his first year?  there is a good pitcher there to build on i believe.

PS - llboros, if you feel this diary is redudant feel free to hide it.

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Hmmm, I think most fans underestimate the
importance of the less tangible aspects of players.  In particular we dismiss how well they fit into an organization and clubhouse.  For whatever reason, Reyes doesn't seem to fit and because of that I doubt he will ever live up to his potential.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 8, 2007 5:01 PM EST reply actions  

I always liked Reyes & still do
Maybe if he ditches the socks and stops ironing his bill Tony will cut him some slack. Didn't Andy Murray tell Perron to not wear white skates because it would be an insult to the veterans? I am still enamored with the game he pithced in the World Series along with the 1 hitter complete game he lost because of no run support and Jim Thome. I would like to see him one more time before we ship him out. Hopefully the organization and Tony feel the same.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 8, 2007 5:17 PM EST reply actions  

Anybody think
that Anthonys need to be different and cocky might correlate directly to his lack of run support?
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 8, 2007 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

no
Being "different" and "cocky" is only seen as a bad thing when you don't have the skills to back it up, or when it prevents you from seeing your own faults (like your inability to throw a 91mph fastball by josh willingham).  I'm sure everyone on the team wanted Reyes to win 20 games and there's no way their lack of offense was related to his cockiness.  He just had some bad luck (like the 5IP CG loss in NYC) and he didn't help his own cause any by batting 0.077 and by not being able to go deeper than 5 innings most of the time.  

His record was .500 (2-2 with 1 ND) when he pitched a quality start, fer chrissakes.  If he had more than 5 quality starts out of 20 tries he might have had more wins (AW was 21 for 32 with only 14 wins).  

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Reyes' Hat...
According to his Wikipedia entry, he actually doesn't iron his hat (which I could have sworn I read), but cuts out part of it.  No source is cited, so I don't know if it's true, but it struck me as interesting.

by DiscoJer on Dec 9, 2007 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

It's hard to get run support
when you continually make your team play from behind by giving up runs early.  I like AR, but he has to get through the lineup at least once without major damage.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 8, 2007 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

cocky ?
this is news to me.  Honestly, I don't have that perception of Reyes at all -- what did I miss?
Exposed socks and a flat-bill hat is "cocky" ??

If anything, I have often heard how WELL Reyes took his yo-yo demotions.

And the other point (altho' I would LIKE to swallow the stats, because I am basically FOR Anthony)... where did your W/L numbers comes from, especially the 17-1 business?  As another responder pointed out, Reyes rarely got past the fifth inning.  You cannot presume that the relief pitchers would have held the other team scoreless for the last four innings.  In other words, you can't compare what Reyes DID give up in five or less innings against what the Cardinals SHOULD have scored for him over nine innings.

e.g. if Reyes left after the fifth with the Cardinals up 6-5, that doesn't guarantee that AR will get a W, or that the Cards will even win THAT game at all.  So I am puzzled.

The 2-2 record in quality starts says it all.  AR 'could' be average, but he certainly wasn't 'good'... lack of run support notwithstanding.

by the Tewk on Dec 8, 2007 9:04 PM EST reply actions  

cocky
although not recently, i remember reading several articles when he was coming up about him being cocky.  nothing wrong with that.

"e.g. if Reyes left after the fifth with the Cardinals up 6-5, that doesn't guarantee that AR will get a W, or that the Cards will even win THAT game at all.  So I am puzzled."

right.  it was more of a hypothetical excercise.  the same way we look at projections and such.  

if a pitcher gets x run support and has a era of x you can probably predict his win loss record to a certain degree.

that's why i said that 17-1 was obviously a huge reach.  but i think that the 13-7 with a <6 era is not that much of a stretch.

the 2-2 record does not say it all from my pov.  many of reyes starts were not quality because he was pulled before 6 innings.  some of those starts weren't bad, he just got pulled by tony.

looking back over the numbers he had this year, they really weren't "he's done" bad for his first full year imo.

by FutureMan on Dec 8, 2007 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Reyes for 08
I think that 2007 was one of the most snakebitten years ever for the Cards.  From death to DUI's to Rehab to crippling injuries to HGH rumors, the 2007 Cards might have been one of the most unluckiest teams in history.  That being said, maybe everyone from top to bottom in the organization can refocus and re-energize and cut each other and themselves a little slack.  Reyes, to me, will be a very good pitcher for the Cards next year.  I know that most of you probably think I'm smoking something right now, but I'm not.  He has taken his lumps and I think things have been learned from both sides.  Although LaRussa can be a ball breaker, he does have a soft spot for battlers and grinders.  Besides Jill, I'm probably on an island here.  I do, however think that Anthony Reyes is going to have a hell of a year if Tony and Duncan just give him a second chance.

by RonGant on Dec 8, 2007 9:49 PM EST reply actions  

+1
I agree with your statement of AR being good for us next year.  He has handled everything like a man, when a lot of others might have given up (this has happened countless times before).  If there are some things TLR appreciates, its grit, determination, and dedication.  AR seems to have all three.  Yes, I know the stuff that happened last year, so please dont bust me up too much about it.  Ive read enough AR bashing stuff.  

Give 'im another shot.

Somewhere the real Cardinals front office is being held hostage.

by yer dog first on Dec 8, 2007 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep. I'm one of the few here that
is absolutely still in Mr. Reyes corner.  I don't think you will see him again in a Cards uniform.  Today's PD once again states they are looking at pitching and considering pitchers like Colon, Fogg, and Benson (ugh!) and that things  aren't yet "bleak enough" to consider starting Reyes in the 5th spot. So, Mr. Gant, we are on our own island, except I don't think it's going to happen for him here. Really, it's a good idea to devalue you him as much as possible before you trade him.  Way to go Cards!

And if folks are seriously worried about the hat and the socks, that's just silly.  Besides, he quit wearing the socks like that at the end of the year.  This team has a manager that wears sunglasses at night, a pitching coach with a 4-inch white binder-Mr. Duncan, get an effin lap top!--the other managers and pitching coaches don't do that.  If management can't handle someone because they are "different" they don't deserve to have the job.  

by jillsinmo on Dec 9, 2007 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Keep him
Who cares about the socks?!?  When I was in little league, we got yelled at for long pants.  The pros wore it, so should we.  Suddenly a fashion statement(long pants) became the norm, and now the old way is disrespectful to veterans?  I say give the kid 5-6 starts, give him a gameplan, but let him pitch his way, and see what happens.  I think most of the velocity loss has come from tinkering with his game.  Let him through a 4-seamer as long as he keeps it down for the most part and lets see what happens.  He has been very professional throughout all the trials, and I think he still has great talent.  He bounces back from bad innings, so its not like he is a headcase like Wells.  I still think he has what it takes to be a MLB starter, not an ace, but not a 5th or swing man.  I like him too, so make room for me on the island.

by Whynot on Dec 9, 2007 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

Conformity
First off, I am not saying A-Reyes' socks or cap is an issue.  However I believe realisticly conformity can be an issue on any team.  Part of being on a team is conforming to a set of norms- violating these norms alienates your teamates.  Thats just the way human nature works.  
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 9, 2007 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

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