December 7 Hot Stove Diary
Well, there has been a lot of talk, but no movement thus far out of the Cards. The biggest splash during the Winter Meetings was our snagging former uber-prospect Brian Barton from the Indians. In Straus' article today he makes a great point, that I failed to even remember:
"Following a third-place finish in 2003, they drafted Indians infielder Hector Luna at the winter meetings. Luna made the club in spring training and remained in St. Louis all season. Luna later returned to the Indians in a trade July 2006 for second baseman Ronnie Belliard, a key player in the Cardinals' postseason surge."
Who knows if Barton will become a special player for us, become a good chip to trade, or if he will even stay in STL. Only time will tell, but I like the signing because if nothing else it gives us some options as far as being able to trade an OF or two for pitching. I suppose we'll see.
The other rumor out there that kind of intrigues me is us possibly being interested in Barry Bonds. Sure there is a dark cloud over him, but come on, he can't make the club house anymore dysfunctional that it already is?? Can he?? Who knows, he may even balance it out. But to be serious, if we can get him at a decent one year deal I'd love to see him hitting in front of or behind Pujols. But, here's the catch in my opinion: The interest in him seems to be very sparse, which you would think would make him a bargain. However, Barry has too much pride and ego to take less than what he thinks is fair for his services, thus, IMHO, he would retire before taking a salary below what he expects to earn. You just never know with him. But I'd be open to his services for a year.
Lastly, and I recognize that this isn't hot stove, but I would like to discuss Rasmus for a moment. I love the guy, think he is going to be amazing, and could turn out to be the best player we have had since Pujols came along. HOWEVER, I do not think the Cardinals (or any team for that matter) can say a player is untouchable. While I agree with everyone here that he will only get better, I think if you can get a Lincecum or someone similar you would be crazy not to. Obviously it would depend on the situation and who else was involved in the trade, but the point is if you can get a dominant starter that will anchor your staff for 5+ years, I don't see how you don't at least discuss it. Just a disclaimer before you all jump down my throat, I am not advocating trading Rasmus or do I think it is in the best interest of the team, I just feel we should be open to options that could better the Cardinals for the long term. Just ask yourself these questions as well: Would the Sox rather have Beckett or Elsbury? Would the Indians rather have Sizemore or Sabathia? Would the M's rather have F. Hernandez of Adam Jones? Awesome pitching with upside trumps awesome hitting/defense with upside. Fact of life.
Have at it VEB!!
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65 comments
Comments
Rasmus
Now if it was for Santana or a proven star along those lines (Oswalt, Peavy, the other untouchables) -- of course that changes things. But as far as the market goes now, Colby will be making his debut with the BOB.
by gforce on Dec 7, 2007 10:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Things to ponder
Rasmus...I look forward to his Cards career, but I would only trade him for established elite MLB talent. Top prospect pitchers are riskier than top prospect hitters, both in terms of effectiveness and injury at the next level.
Comparing Beckett and Ellsbury isn't fair. One is established and one is not. If you want to make the comparison, you could also say would you rather have Philip Hughes or Robinson Cano? Would you rather have Anthony Reyes or Chris Duncan?
Barry Bonds is a jerk and would get booed in St. Louis every at bat. Signing him would be a big mistake.
by Elvis on Dec 7, 2007 10:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Brian Barden - the 3B - GREAT defender...
Although not in the same class as Rolen.
by airhad on Dec 7, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Touche
Just out of curiosity would you rather give up Wainwright or Rasmus? Again maybe not exactly a match, but both have tremendous upside.
by joecardsfan on Dec 7, 2007 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or Bucholtz and Ellsbury??
by joecardsfan on Dec 7, 2007 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ellsbury
sizemore over sabathia
bucholz over ellsbury (only b/c ellsbury is way overrated)
this is why youmust develop pitching. the price of acquisition is too high in terms of players and/or money. you must develop enough to offset injuries and fill rotation holes.
by indakind on Dec 7, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds
by rocKStark5 on Dec 7, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry
He would be good in the #1 or #2 holes in the lineup and we would have a lot of runners onbase for Albert.....
by Calhoun on Dec 7, 2007 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I talked about this once before
Of course Bonds is a jerk, but a lot of baseball players are jerks. He is a player that could easily contribute to a winning season now.
Offer him $12 million for one year. No one else will bite, and he will either accept or retire.
As far as the booing...I don't think we boo one of our own. Ankiel wasn't booed when he was linked to HGH probes. Can anyone give clarity on this question....did we boo Bonds when he came here this past year? I am willing to venture we did not boo him as much as the rest of the league did.
by cardzfan24 on Dec 7, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds
by BigdJC on Dec 7, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Booing
As for signing him...this season could not get any weirder...so maybe?!? I don't like him as a person, but he's no Gary Sheffield or Shawn Estes to me...(those are stories for another time.)
stlfan
by stlfan on Dec 7, 2007 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Boos
So I guess my point is that if Cards fans will boo our own player, we are certainly capable of booing Bonds. Should we? I dunno, but we definitely have it in us.
by Ray Lankford on Dec 7, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
people
Matter of fact we tried to get moral high ground on the Cubs fans when they booed zambrano then bush booed Kip Wells the same day.
STL fans are not a beautiful and unique snowflakes. They are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else.
by rocKStark5 on Dec 7, 2007 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Finally
Right on, dude. We're as full of shit as everybody else.
by 26thMan on Dec 8, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3b - Josh Fields?
No time to do a little research. What do we know about him? I know he was a former OSU quarterback and was a 1st round pick. Is this a guy we might be interested in thinking about, especially if he's available?
by airhad on Dec 7, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Josh Fields
My two cents is that Rasmus can not be traded unless it involves proven, young, top of the rotation talent like Bedard or Haren (which, I know with Haren, would never happen.)
by IC Cards Fan on Dec 7, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing Steve Stone isn't the GM...
by airhad on Dec 7, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
milton bradley signs
ok --- now i'm aggravated. that's an incredible steal of a contract, and (if i can be immodest) right in line w/ what i projected a few months back (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/10/11/94512/048).
the barton pickup takes a little of the sting out of this. but the cards could have acquired both bradley and barton, then traded duncan for a pitcher or a shortstop.
that's how you do it . . . . .
by lboros on Dec 7, 2007 11:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What pitcher?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
somebody young and cost-controlled
shortstops: i'd start w/ brent lillibridge
the cards haven't tested the market for duncan; that's where i would start.
by lboros on Dec 7, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They did test the market somewhat
I don't think Chris Duncan is going to bring much of those players. He's locked into 1 maybe 2 positions (LF or 1B) and you can find that easily via FA. Ankiel, who can play all 3 OF positions would have much more value to a team looking for an OF.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my guess...
by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget
by saveferris on Dec 7, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And
by RonGant on Dec 7, 2007 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley will play great for them in between
by jillsinmo on Dec 7, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you
I don't know if any one else has heard this, the
giants apparently talked about H matsui and the
package was centered around jonathon sanchez.
matsui has 2 years, 26M left on his contract.
if the cardinals had the flexibility afforded by a
shrewed move such as signing bradly, it's not too
much of a reach to think duncan would bring back
more,perhaps sanchez and correia, or lowry.
by Dave Barry on Dec 7, 2007 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree 100%
I just can't believe he didn't get 2+ years.
by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Consensus on Duncan
By that I mean:
He put up a huge first half (.288, .380, .547)
Then absolutely slumped post-ASB (.209, .311, .367)
So did he just get tired, was he injured (can't remember really...), or was he over-exposed by the first half?
Should we expect him to come into 2008 rejuvenated and putting up great numbers, or as a 1-D player that pitchers/coaches have figured out?
Also, he's cost-controlled right now, how long does that last for?
I guess I've always felt that he was decent, and that as long as he wasn't eating up 3+ million dollars of contract, he was a pretty good deal. But now I hear a lot of VEBer's calling for his trade...
by duncansarmy on Dec 7, 2007 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan
He also banged up his knee in the first half and missed some time due to that.
I would love to see Duncan play 150+ games next season to see what we have. Besides Albert, Duncan is the only guy on the team who has 20+ HR and .340 OBP potential. Ankiel will not have a good OBP.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 7, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my guess for Ludwick
by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
crazy idea
by spiderman15 on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
LaRussa
If Rolen were moved, I could see a very possible scenairo in which they would go after Inge.
by RonGant on Dec 7, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Inge
He has quite a bit of power and it would help our lineup. I would not want to give up a really good prospect for him....
One other thing has Inge ever played shortstop? I know he was a catcher but its worth looking into.... ANYTHING would be better then Cesar offensively........
by Calhoun on Dec 7, 2007 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Molina for Lincecum?
If that's a possibility...get it done, yesterday! That would be terribly lopsided.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 7, 2007 11:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
remember, we're talking Sabean
sigh...
by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2007 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Missed this yesterday
Neyer and Law [the two nominees who were not voted in] are also the only two that were not previous members. It was a backdoor way to grandfather people in. Pure joke.As (unfairly) hated Keith Law is by many around here, if there were two writers who I'd trust to choose the annual MVP award winners and such, it'd be those two.
by liam on Dec 7, 2007 2:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Law
by ICbirdfan on Dec 7, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tigers in 3
I'm starting to rhyme and I like it.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was
Law's critical and snarky—it rubs some people the wrong way when brutalizes the organization. He's the same way with pretty much every franchise out there, though. I imagine some people only pay attention to what he says about ours and come away thinking he's got a vendetta.
Not so, our franchise just has a bunch of problems without obvious solutions.
He's come on here before to defend himself, too. Gotta respect that.
by liam on Dec 7, 2007 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's hated
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Embarrassing
by nomar34 on Dec 7, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heilman
by BigMac545 on Dec 7, 2007 3:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this.
I haven't crunched any numbers but from watching him pitch he's a guy I want to have on my team. Gotta wonder how close his arm is to burning out though; 81 appearances last year, and 155 the last 2 years?
by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re:
I really think that if Heilman is available we need to put together a package to get him. He would almost be our default #2 starter as is. Wagonmaker is the only one of the current staff that I think would consistently out produce Heilman. The more I think about this the more I like it.
by BigMac545 on Dec 7, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I don't get is
by Red Blazer on Dec 7, 2007 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heilman
The other concern I'd have is a third pitch-I've never really seen him throw anything but the fast/change combo. Who knows though...he's got a lot of ability, something I can't say about half the team's staff.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
think they are down on him
by cm1000 on Dec 7, 2007 5:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yes they are a bit down on him....
by intimidator45 on Dec 7, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying Hielman is Santan but
by Red Blazer on Dec 7, 2007 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vanna I would like to buy a vowel...
by Red Blazer on Dec 8, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To everyone wanting to include
by jillsinmo on Dec 7, 2007 7:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
...why?
Catcher is backwards. Defense trumps offense. The way the Cardinals have been as long as I can remember (admittedly, not as long as everyone around here), catcher's number 1 priority was defense. I feel this is a brilliant way to look at things. Any offense you got out of them was a bonus.
The Cardinals already have arguably the best defensive catcher in the bigs in Yadi. He's young. I do NOT want to sacrifice his defensive prowess for whatever offense Anderson would bring to the table. Think about how bad this pitching staff might've been last year if Yadi hadn't been handling them?
Now, this is not to say that I do not think Anderson is a good prospect. I think he's phenomenal. But he's not what the Cardinals need right now. They need young pitching. It makes no sense to me to hang on to Anderson when you already have a catcher in Yadi who's going to be here for a long, long time, and is one of the best in the game. Flip Anderson in a deal for a top prospect pitcher, and let him develop somewhere where he'll actually get a chance to play.
by Jhusk on Dec 8, 2007 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think so too.
by ridgesee on Dec 7, 2007 9:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I watched those games as well...
Most automatically assume because a catcher can hit...he can't field. He's got a strong accurate arm, and good receiving skills. He did seem to have a bit of a problem with a couple of balls in the dirt...that can be corrected.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 7, 2007 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's still got time to develop.
Another thing I saw-you all remember Micah Owing the stud hitter/developing pitcher on the D'Backs? They are thinking of using him a little at 1st base in between starts! It would be interesting if they tried it. I always thought the A's would be the first to go with this kind of thing. Owings is certainly the type of player if could work with....I'll be watching.
by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2007 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do understand where you
by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2007 8:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Trade him. Get some good young pitching. Then, in 5, 6, 7 years, worry about who's catching after Yadi.
Again, I can't stress enough, the two positions this team DOESN'T need to worry about are first base and catcher. They can't pass up a trade for a good young pitcher, especially when they have one of the top-5 catchers in the bigs ALREADY ON THE TEAM.
by Jhusk on Dec 8, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yadier Molina
And your whole point about catcher defense being so important is, I'm sorry to say, misguided. Go over to Baseball Prospectus and check out some of the studies they've done on catcher ERA. Catcher defense is one of the single most overrated tools in the game. You'll gain far more, in relation to your competition, by plugging in above average offense at a position where every other team is just treading water than you do by having a defensive wiz behind the plate.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice having a guy like Yadi back there, shutting down the running game. But that's the only thing that he really does well. And don't give me a line of crap about how well he 'handles' pitchers, either. The pitching coach comes up with a game plan, and the pitcher decides what individual pitches to throw. Unless a catcher is absolutely clueless and just can't get along with the pitchers at all, (see: Einar Diaz) the catcher has far less impact on the game than what a lot of people seem to think, at least from behind the plate.
by the red baron on Dec 10, 2007 9:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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