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December 7 Hot Stove Diary

Well, there has been a lot of talk, but no movement thus far out of the Cards.  The biggest splash during the Winter Meetings was our snagging former uber-prospect Brian Barton from the Indians.  In Straus' article today he makes a great point, that I failed to even remember:

"Following a third-place finish in 2003, they drafted Indians infielder Hector Luna at the winter meetings. Luna made the club in spring training and remained in St. Louis all season. Luna later returned to the Indians in a trade July 2006 for second baseman Ronnie Belliard, a key player in the Cardinals' postseason surge."

Who knows if Barton will become a special player for us, become a good chip to trade, or if he will even stay in STL.  Only time will tell, but I like the signing because if nothing else it gives us some options as far as being able to trade an OF or two for pitching.  I suppose we'll see.

The other rumor out there that kind of intrigues me is us possibly being interested in Barry Bonds.  Sure there is a dark cloud over him, but come on, he can't make the club house anymore dysfunctional that it already is?? Can he??  Who knows, he may even balance it out.  But to be serious, if we can get him at a decent one year deal I'd love to see him hitting in front of or behind Pujols.  But, here's the catch in my opinion: The interest in him seems to be very sparse, which you would think would make him a bargain.  However, Barry has too much pride and ego to take less than what he thinks is fair for his services, thus, IMHO, he would retire before taking a salary below what he expects to earn.  You just never know with him.  But I'd be open to his services for a year.

Lastly, and I recognize that this isn't hot stove, but I would like to discuss Rasmus for a moment.  I love the guy, think he is going to be amazing, and could turn out to be the best player we have had since Pujols came along.  HOWEVER, I do not think the Cardinals (or any team for that matter) can say a player is untouchable.  While I agree with everyone here that he will only get better, I think if you can get a Lincecum or someone similar you would be crazy not to.  Obviously it would depend on the situation and who else was involved in the trade, but the point is if you can get a dominant starter that will anchor your staff for 5+ years, I don't see how you don't at least discuss it.  Just a disclaimer before you all jump down my throat, I am not advocating trading Rasmus or do I think it is in the best interest of the team, I just feel we should be open to options that could better the Cardinals for the long term.    Just ask yourself these questions as well: Would the Sox rather have Beckett or Elsbury?  Would the Indians rather have Sizemore or Sabathia?  Would the M's rather have F. Hernandez of Adam Jones?  Awesome pitching with upside trumps awesome hitting/defense with upside.  Fact of life.

Have at it VEB!!

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Rasmus
The thought of having him setting the table for Albert for years to come trumps the thought of trading him for me.

Now if it was for Santana or a proven star along those lines (Oswalt, Peavy, the other untouchables) -- of course that changes things. But as far as the market goes now, Colby will be making his debut with the BOB.

Rasmus, Barton, Pujols...ichi, ni, san (in honor of So)

by gforce on Dec 7, 2007 10:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Things to ponder
I know there are a lot of fans enamored with Laroche. (Me too) However, take a look at Brian Barden's minor league numbers...are we selling this guy short? He has consistent .800+ OPS and stellar defense. He may not be Laroche, but he may be a decent solution if Rolen gets dealt elsewhere.

Rasmus...I look forward to his Cards career, but I would only trade him for established elite MLB talent. Top prospect pitchers are riskier than top prospect hitters, both in terms of effectiveness and injury at the next level.

Comparing Beckett and Ellsbury isn't fair. One is established and one is not. If you want to make the comparison, you could also say would you rather have Philip Hughes or Robinson Cano? Would you rather have Anthony Reyes or Chris Duncan?

Barry Bonds is a jerk and would get booed in St. Louis every at bat. Signing him would be a big mistake.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Dec 7, 2007 10:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Brian Barden - the 3B - GREAT defender...
A friend of mine has worked for the Tucson Sidewinders for years - where Barden played 3b. According to my friend, Barden is regarded by scouts and observers as the best defensive 3bmen in the minors.

Although not in the same class as Rolen.

by airhad on Dec 7, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Touche
Ellsbury and Beckett was not a good analogy.  How about Lester or Ellsbury??  The point I was getting at, is that for the right piece of the puzzle I don't see how we at least wouldn't discuss giving up Rasmus.  

Just out of curiosity would you rather give up Wainwright or Rasmus?  Again maybe not exactly a match, but both have tremendous upside.

by joecardsfan on Dec 7, 2007 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or Bucholtz and Ellsbury??
Had a brain fart and couldn't remember the better pitcher's name.

by joecardsfan on Dec 7, 2007 11:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ellsbury
jacoby ellsbury is not nearly as good as rasmus projects. ellsbury has no power. you can't trade good young position players for young pitching b/c pitchers only play every 5 days and break down with injuries. thus

sizemore over sabathia

bucholz over ellsbury (only b/c ellsbury is way overrated)

this is why youmust develop pitching. the price of acquisition is too high in terms of players and/or money. you must develop enough to offset injuries and fill rotation holes.

by indakind on Dec 7, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds
if he posts good numbers nobody in this bandwagon town will boo him out of principle.  I hate him personally but I'd cheer/stand every AB.  Having him infront or behind pujols makes me giddy.  
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 7, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Barry
I am not in favor of acquiring Barry B But if Mo did sign him how about him leading off? What do you guys think about that? He gets like a million walks a year(I'm exaggerating)
He would be good in the #1 or #2 holes in the lineup and we would have a lot of runners onbase for Albert.....

by Calhoun on Dec 7, 2007 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I talked about this once before
put aside all of the crap Bonds brings.  He is the prototype for the TLR #2 hitter.  He gets on base and will hit 20+ HRs easily.

Of course Bonds is a jerk, but a lot of baseball players are jerks.  He is a player that could easily contribute to a winning season now.

Offer him $12 million for one year.  No one else will bite, and he will either accept or retire.

As far as the booing...I don't think we boo one of our own.  Ankiel wasn't booed when he was linked to HGH probes.  Can anyone give clarity on this question....did we boo Bonds when he came here this past year?  I am willing to venture we did not boo him as much as the rest of the league did.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 7, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds
You're exactly right, Bonds is a great #2 hitter. He hits righties and lefties well.  Plus, pitchers would have to pitch to him because you have Pujols right behind him.  However, I believe that Bonds picks his spot in the lineup.  He wants to bat 3rd or 4th.  I could be wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere.  Even with him batting behind Pujols would be nice.  Then have Rolen/Edmonds/Duncan/whoever isn't injured behind Bonds, and you have a pretty solid middle lineup.  Just my two cents.  I don't like the guy, but I wouldn't mind seeing him wear the birds on the bat.  He'll probably sign with Oakland though.

by BigdJC on Dec 7, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Booing
St. Louis will boo one of their own if they see a lack of effort on plays.  The first time Bonds flies to deep center field off of the wall for a single...because he watches it for the 6 seconds it is in the air, he will get booed.

As for signing him...this season could not get any weirder...so maybe?!?  I don't like him as a person, but he's no Gary Sheffield or Shawn Estes to me...(those are stories for another time.)

stlfan

by stlfan on Dec 7, 2007 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Boos
Ask Izzy what its like to be booed by Cardinal fans.  He was definitely booed in 2006, when he was struggling with injuries.  In fact, I think he talked about it when his contract was extended -- he didn't like it one bit but wanted to show the fans they had no reason to boo him.  Also, I was at Renteria's return to STL as a member of the Red Sox.  There were cheers, but a very noticable chorus of boos as well.

So I guess my point is that if Cards fans will boo our own player, we are certainly capable of booing Bonds.  Should we?  I dunno, but we definitely have it in us.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 7, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

people
in this town boo just like people in every other town.  They Booed Bonds, Izzy, The Cubs, Kip Wells, all kinds.  

Matter of fact we tried to get moral high ground on the Cubs fans when they booed zambrano then bush booed Kip Wells the same day.  

STL fans are not a beautiful and unique snowflakes. They are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else.

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 7, 2007 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Finally
someone with perspective re: "the best fans in baseball."

Right on, dude. We're as full of shit as everybody else.

by 26thMan on Dec 8, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

3b - Josh Fields?
Here in Chicago they were discussing the White Sox 3b situation on the radio yesterday. AM 670 mentioned (for more than an hour as I was fighting traffic on the inbound Edens) that in addition to Crede, Josh Fields was available.

No time to do a little research. What do we know about him? I know he was a former OSU quarterback and was a 1st round pick. Is this a guy we might be interested in thinking about, especially if he's available?

by airhad on Dec 7, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Josh Fields
Fields absolutely rakes at the plate. Steve Stone thinks he has 40+ HR power potential. Not sure if his glove is a plus or minus. I would think any trade talk would begin with Rasmus, and if not Rasmus than ALL of the players right below him (Garcia, Perez, Ottavino, etc...).

My two cents is that Rasmus can not be traded unless it involves proven, young, top of the rotation talent like Bedard or Haren (which, I know with Haren, would never happen.)

by IC Cards Fan on Dec 7, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good thing Steve Stone isn't the GM...
All the talk here is that the White Sox are interested in finding a different 3b - jettisoning Crede, moving Fields to LF or trading him away, etc. Not sure if that's because of Fields' defense or his valuation by the Sox, but he doesn't seem to be that highly regarded by the org.

by airhad on Dec 7, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

milton bradley signs
1 year, $4m: http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071206&content_id=2319649&vkey=news_sd &fext=.jsp&c_id=sd

ok --- now i'm aggravated. that's an incredible steal of a contract, and (if i can be immodest) right in line w/ what i projected a few months back (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/10/11/94512/048).

the barton pickup takes a little of the sting out of this. but the cards could have acquired both bradley and barton, then traded duncan for a pitcher or a shortstop.

that's how you do it . . . . .

by lboros on Dec 7, 2007 11:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

What pitcher?
What shortstop?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

somebody young and cost-controlled
pitchers ---- ian snell, matt cain, one of the twins' young arms, one of the o's young arms (haven't we discussed this all winter ??).

shortstops:  i'd start w/ brent lillibridge

the cards haven't tested the market for duncan; that's where i would start.

by lboros on Dec 7, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They did test the market somewhat
and came up with Jack Wilson from the Pirates, a massive step down from Ian Snell.

I don't think Chris Duncan is going to bring much of those players.  He's locked into 1 maybe 2 positions (LF or 1B) and you can find that easily via FA.  Ankiel, who can play all 3 OF positions would have much more value to a team looking for an OF.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my guess...
on that duncan-for-wilson rumor you keep bringing up, is that the Pirates knew we needed a shortstop and decided to try to fleece us, hoping mo would feel pressured to make his mark with an early move.  Duncan is worth much more than that and any competent GM would recognize that, and with littlefield gone I think even PIT recognizes it.  They just wanted to get him for cheap.  
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly
the wilson-for-duncan thing means nothing. the cards inquired about wilson, and the pirates asked for duncan. the cards said no.

but the cards have never put duncan on the market and taken offers on him.

by lboros on Dec 7, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget
Bradley is recovering from his ump argument ACL injury and has a history of injuries
That's a winner!

by saveferris on Dec 7, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And
he probably likes it on the West Coast and feels that there is a but of nfinished business from last year.  In a way, I think this was a gesture of goodwill on Bradley's part because he feels like shit about the way he sunk the team in 07.

by RonGant on Dec 7, 2007 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bradley will play great for them in between
DL stints; he plays great for everyone between DL stints.  I would have loved to have him-too bad about the end of the season blow up.  But remember, an umpire got suspended for things he said that help cause the flames to errupt.  By all accounts, up until that point, he'd been a model citizen and good teammate. I'm sure he's learned something from it. I wish we would have offered him something.  

by jillsinmo on Dec 7, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you
Lboros, it's not that they're making bad decisions, they're making none at all.  

I don't know if any one else has heard this, the

giants apparently talked about H matsui and the

package was centered around jonathon sanchez.  

matsui has 2 years, 26M left on his contract.  

if the cardinals had the flexibility afforded by a

shrewed move such as signing bradly, it's not too

much of a reach to think duncan would bring back

more,perhaps sanchez and correia, or lowry.  

"My cat's breath smells like cat food"

by Dave Barry on Dec 7, 2007 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agree 100%
Of course, if we had tried to sign him the price would have gone up significantly, so it wouldn't have been such a bargain- but his actual value is probably close to three times what he signed for, so I guess that's really not an issue.

I just can't believe he didn't get 2+ years.

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Consensus on Duncan
Sorry, I haven't been around for a while, so I'm wondering what is the consensus on Duncan?
By that I  mean:
He put up a huge first half (.288, .380, .547)
Then absolutely slumped post-ASB (.209, .311, .367)
So did he just get tired, was he injured (can't remember really...), or was he over-exposed by the first half?
Should we expect him to come into 2008 rejuvenated and putting up great numbers, or as a 1-D player that pitchers/coaches have figured out?
Also, he's cost-controlled right now, how long does that last for?

I guess I've always felt that he was decent, and that as long as he wasn't eating up 3+ million dollars of contract, he was a pretty good deal. But now I hear a lot of VEBer's calling for his trade...

by duncansarmy on Dec 7, 2007 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan
He had a sports hernia for the second half of the season, which hurt his play very much.

He also banged up his knee in the first half and missed some time due to that.

I would love to see Duncan play 150+ games next season to see what we have.  Besides Albert, Duncan is the only guy on the team who has 20+ HR and .340 OBP potential.  Ankiel will not have a good OBP.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 7, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my guess for Ludwick
is about .280/.360/.500 with 20-30 HR, depending on how many PA's he gets.  maybe a bit better, maybe a bit worse.  Of course he could be a lot worse, but I don't think so.
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope
I hope!  I did not look at Lud's stats.  It is hard to project him out.  I would expect numbers similar to this year just more HR with more AB's.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 7, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why sign
Milton for $4 mil, when you can get Izturis for $3.5?

No need to trade for a shortstop now, we've got Cesar the Great there!

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 7, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

crazy idea
okay, i admit this is pretty out there, but what the heck.  i was over at mlbtraderumors.com and saw that the tigers are shopping brandon inge.  not surprising since they now have cabrera.  anyway, he is owed $19.1 million over the next 3 years.  he also did not have a great year last year (.688 OPS), making him somewhat hard for detroit to move, i would guess.  but what the blogger said caught my eye.  he used to be a catcher, and at that position he would be of great offensive value.  so, lets say that getting inge is more or less a salary dump for detroit (not at all sure, just hypothesizing), costing essentially a mid-level prospect.  if so, then we have great trade bait in molina/anderson.  molina is not an offensive force, as we all know, but he is stellar defensively, and anderson is a great catcher prospect.  adding molina as a trade chip could really help us add a young starting pitcher.  of course, this is assuming inge would handle C well, but i think it is something to at least think about.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." ~Rogers Hornsby

by spiderman15 on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa
would NEVER let that happen.  Molina is a Tony guy through and through.  I don't think Tony would sign off on a Lincecum-Molina trade straight up. Inge, however would be of some value to LaRussa because he could be that emergency 3rd catcher that he covets.
If Rolen were moved, I could see a very possible scenairo in which they would go after Inge.  

by RonGant on Dec 7, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Inge
I wouldn't mind picking up Inge if he is cheap...
He has quite a bit of power and it would help our lineup. I would not want to give up a really good prospect for him....
One other thing has Inge ever played shortstop? I know he was a catcher but its worth looking into.... ANYTHING would be better then Cesar offensively........

by Calhoun on Dec 7, 2007 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Molina for Lincecum?
I would hope Mo would have the power to pull that deal without deferring to Tony, but I doubt he does.

If that's a possibility...get it done, yesterday!  That would be terribly lopsided.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 7, 2007 11:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

remember, we're talking Sabean
he'd never trade a young pitcher for a young, "unproven" guy like molina.  I could easily see him trading Lincecum for a guy like pudge rodriguez though.

sigh...

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 8, 2007 12:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Missed this yesterday
And not quite hot-stove chatter, but 16 (of 18 nominated) web-based writers were invited into the BBWAA. Interesting comment by Dr. X:
Neyer and Law [the two nominees who were not voted in] are also the only two that were not previous members. It was a backdoor way to grandfather people in. Pure joke.
As (unfairly) hated Keith Law is by many around here, if there were two writers who I'd trust to choose the annual MVP award winners and such, it'd be those two.

by liam on Dec 7, 2007 2:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Law
Why is he hated?  I rember him bashing the farm system which is true.  Do people hate the truth?

by ICbirdfan on Dec 7, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tigers in 3
I do believe.

I'm starting to rhyme and I like it.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 7, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was
Bob Nightengale.

Law's critical and snarky—it rubs some people the wrong way when brutalizes the organization. He's the same way with pretty much every franchise out there, though. I imagine some people only pay attention to what he says about ours and come away thinking he's got a vendetta.

Not so, our franchise just has a bunch of problems without obvious solutions.

He's come on here before to defend himself, too. Gotta respect that.

by liam on Dec 7, 2007 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's hated
b/c he comes across as a sneaky little prick who never has anything good to say about anyone.  Just as an off the top of the head example in his top 50 FA's list he spent more time talking about how ARod is an average 3rd baseman defensively and will decline there over time than the fact that he's arguably the most talented hitter in the game.  He also seems to hate every move ever made, and refuses to just accept the fact that players are going to get 1-2 million more per year than they really deserve.  Plus he tries very hard to be clever and just sounds like a jackass.  To be fair though, he's like that w/ everyone, not just the Cardinals.  When he does interviews he's a lot better, he just sticks to the facts.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Embarrassing
it's embarrassing that Neyer wasnt on that list. i think Law should get a vote too but i can understand why he was left off. Neyer on the other hand as been writing for years and is light years ahead of 95% of the BBWAA members in every way...except maybe ignorance.
"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Dec 7, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Heilman
Just read over at Mlbtraderumors that the Mets are shopping Heilman (reportedly for Fuentes). This is a guy who I think the Cards could target for one of their starting rotations holes. Heilman doesn't reach FA until 2010 and only makes about 500k. I know he has never been a full time starter in the big leagues. For some reason the Mets are seem to be constantly down on him and ready to trade him, despite the fact that he has a career ERA below 4 and a K/BB ratio around 3 for his career. I think this would be a great pick-up.

by BigMac545 on Dec 7, 2007 3:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1
I like that idea

by Ray Lankford on Dec 7, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this.
Was just watching the 2006 NLCS game 7 last night and thinking about how interesting it would be to have heilman as our 5th starter.  I know he wants to start; I just wonder what he would cost us?  I don't think we have anyone that really compares well to Fuentes.

I haven't crunched any numbers but from watching him pitch he's a guy I want to have on my team.  Gotta wonder how close his arm is to burning out though; 81 appearances last year, and 155 the last 2 years?  

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 7, 2007 5:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
I thought of that too but he has only pitched about 100 innings a year. For a guy who started all thru the minors I see it as the dude's arm is fresh and ready to go. He has left 50-100 innings out there the last few years.

I really think that if Heilman is available we need to put together a package to get him. He would almost be our default #2 starter as is. Wagonmaker is the only one of the current staff that I think would consistently out produce Heilman. The more I think about this the more I like it.

by BigMac545 on Dec 7, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What I don't get is
that the Mets need Starters. Why haven they given up on him in that role? Is he that much worse than everybody else they currently posses or is this another Anthony Reyes situation?
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 7, 2007 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Heilman
I think Heilman is a pretty good pitcher w/ a dirty changeup, but I don't think his mechanics can hold up as a starter, esp. since he's been in short relief for so long.  (But then again, so had Looper who proved to be competent.)

The other concern I'd have is a third pitch-I've never really seen him throw anything but the fast/change combo.  Who knows though...he's got a lot of ability, something I can't say about half the team's staff.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 7, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
We could easily match Fuentes.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 7, 2007 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fuentes
Crumbled last year - a la Lidge.  I think it was four blown saves in a row to loose his job midseason....

by cdb on Dec 7, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

think they are down on him
sounds like someone we know..

by cm1000 on Dec 7, 2007 5:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yes they are a bit down on him....
but most of their bad sentiment seems to be about what he can't do rather than what he can.  he can be a VERY good reliever b/c he has two pitches that he can consistently throw for strikes which is effective in a shortened role...however, at least from what i've heard, the mets are not that excited about him taking the ball every fifth day as a starter b/c his thin repitoire (he mostly exists off a fastball and changeup)in their eyes wouldn't make much hay the second or third time thru a lineup.  now whether that is true or not remains to be seen...heilman has never really gotten a long look as a starter and some pitchers get by using 2 or 3 pitches, but more than likely the mets are right...great reliever at present, needs to expand his arsenal to make a successful conversion to SP
grow back the beard adam...it couldn't hurt

by intimidator45 on Dec 7, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying Hielman is Santan but
Santan makes due with two pitches. Location, location, location.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 7, 2007 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To everyone wanting to include
Bryan Anderson in a trade, I'd like to remind you that good hitting catchers are rare.  Left handed hitting catchers rarer still.  He's still young.  It's too soon to say he won't develop the defensive skills to be a ML catcher.  The learning curve for catchers is steep.  He's young for his level.  I don't want him traded.  Please remember that Yadi ended the season early and had knee surgery.  Knees are very important to catchers--they take quite a beating.  There is no one else to hand the mask to in the system.  They really should keep this guy around for awhile, see how he develops.

by jillsinmo on Dec 7, 2007 7:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

...why?
"Catcher" isn't the same position as outfield or corner infield. In those positions, offense trumps defense (see: Chris Duncan, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz in an NL ballpark, etc.).

Catcher is backwards. Defense trumps offense. The way the Cardinals have been as long as I can remember (admittedly, not as long as everyone around here),  catcher's number 1 priority was defense. I feel this is a brilliant way to look at things. Any offense you got out of them was a bonus.

The Cardinals already have arguably the best defensive catcher in the bigs in Yadi. He's young. I do NOT want to sacrifice his defensive prowess for whatever offense Anderson would bring to the table. Think about how bad this pitching staff might've been last year if Yadi hadn't been handling them?

Now, this is not to say that I do not think Anderson is a good prospect. I think he's phenomenal. But he's not what the Cardinals need right now. They need young pitching. It makes no sense to me to hang on to Anderson when you already have a catcher in Yadi who's going to be here for a long, long time, and is one of the best in the game. Flip Anderson in a deal for a top prospect pitcher, and let him develop somewhere where he'll actually get a chance to play.

by Jhusk on Dec 8, 2007 12:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think so too.
I saw him behind the plate in the two games for team USA and I thought he looked surprisingly good. Looked good at the plate also.

by ridgesee on Dec 7, 2007 9:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I watched those games as well...
He's MUCH better than most people give him credit for.

Most automatically assume because a catcher can hit...he can't field.  He's got a strong accurate arm, and good receiving skills.  He did seem to have a bit of a problem with a couple of balls in the dirt...that can be corrected.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 7, 2007 11:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's still got time to develop.
There are some good hitting catchers who are more than adequate on defense.  Joe Mauer, Jorge Posada, Russell Martin, Brian McCann.  It's too soon to tell if Anderson's going to be that, but we have no other catchers under the age of 30 at AAA.  Sure we have Molina--what happens if he goes down?  

Another thing I saw-you all remember Micah Owing the stud hitter/developing pitcher on the D'Backs?  They are thinking of using him a little at 1st base in between starts!  It would be interesting if they tried it.  I always thought the A's would be the first to go with this kind of thing.  Owings is certainly the type of player if could work with....I'll be watching.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2007 12:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I do understand where you
are coming from.  It is important to have a good defensive catcher.  It also good to have one that hits.  The players I mentioned who can hit and play adequate or better defense have not hurt their teams chances.  Yadi has had his first knee surgery.  Do you want to get rid of Anderson before you know what you have with him when there are no other catchers in your system that have the remote possibly of catching in the ML?  I don't.

by jillsinmo on Dec 8, 2007 8:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.
I do. This team's problem isn't at catcher. This team needs pitching. They can get pitching for Bryan Anderson. I don't want them to hold onto Anderson for what "might" happen to Yadi.

Trade him. Get some good young pitching. Then, in 5, 6, 7 years, worry about who's catching after Yadi.

Again, I can't stress enough, the two positions this team DOESN'T need to worry about are first base and catcher. They can't pass up a trade for a good young pitcher, especially when they have one of the top-5 catchers in the bigs ALREADY ON THE TEAM.

by Jhusk on Dec 8, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yadier Molina
is not one of the top 5 catchers in all of baseball.  He's in the top half, due to his outstanding defense, but no more.  

And your whole point about catcher defense being so important is, I'm sorry to say, misguided.  Go over to Baseball Prospectus and check out some of the studies they've done on catcher ERA.  Catcher defense is one of the single most overrated tools in the game.  You'll gain far more, in relation to your competition, by plugging in above average offense at a position where every other team is just treading water than you do by having a defensive wiz behind the plate.  

Don't get me wrong, it's nice having a guy like Yadi back there, shutting down the running game.  But that's the only thing that he really does well.  And don't give me a line of crap about how well he 'handles' pitchers, either.  The pitching coach comes up with a game plan, and the pitcher decides what individual pitches to throw.  Unless a catcher is absolutely clueless and just can't get along with the pitchers at all, (see: Einar Diaz) the catcher has far less impact on the game than what a lot of people seem to think, at least from behind the plate.  

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 10, 2007 9:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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