Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: World Soccer Digest for Soccer Fans!

daze of our lives

re the recent conflict over diaries: please see this thread for an update. more on this subject to come later.

now for the other, more consequential conflict taking place in cardinal-land. i guess it's official, if it wasn't already: the cards have become the yankees. they're as much about ego and personality now as about baseball; what the participants say about each other off the field generates at least as much interest as what they do on the field. i'm referring, of course, to la russa's blunt remarks about rolen, capsulized in this diary and in joe strauss's article this morning. to me, the content of la russa's remarks is far less interesting than the subtext: he now regards the war w/ rolen as a competition. and tony, as in all things, very badly wants to win.

i have no idea which guy is "right" here, nor do i much care; in a clash of personalities like this, the fault almost always lies on both sides. from a purely baseball standpoint, if i could only have one of these two guys in my organization, either rolen or la russa --- i'd take scotty.

having said that: i'd deal scotty in a heartbeat if the cards could get a decent return. so far they can't, and that seems to be largely because the owners won't pick up much of rolen's salary. this is one instance in which the worn-out and overused "cards are cheap!!" accusation actually sticks, imho. is it any wonder that teams won't part with premium talent to acquire a player with rolen's salary, health issues, and recent track record? no duh. but there has been more interest in scotty than i expected --- and if the cards were willing to pick up, say, half the tab, they might actually be able to get a deal done. the acquiring team would get him for, in essence, 3 yrs / $18m; that's a bargain in a marketplace where guys like gary mathews and aaron rowand can command upwards of $10m a season. suppose the cards were to offer rolen plus $18 mill to the giants, who have expressed interest in scott and possess a surplus of young arms (from which they reportedly are willing to deal). mozeliak asks for matt cain in return. from a payroll standpoint, the $18m the cards are sending out to san francisco becomes part of matt cain's "salary"; it doesn't go into his pocket, but it's part of the price the cards are paying for his services. that gets added to the money that actually does go into cain's pocket --- he's 1 year away from arb eligibility, so he stands to earn an aggregate of about $8m over the next three years --- and you wind up paying about $26m over three years for cain. in this marketplace, a pitcher of his ability is a stinkin' bargain at 3 yr / $26m.

of course, we don't know if the giants would go for that specific deal; maybe they'd counter by offering noah lowry and jonathan sanchez, or maybe they'd tell mo "sorry, not interested." but i think that's how the team should go about it. approach the dodgers and offer rolen + $18m for andy la roche or chad billingsley; approach the angels and offer the same for jered weaver, or for ervin santana plus a prospect. and once the trade is completed, if there's still a hole at 3d base the cards still have half of rolen's salary left over to pay his replacement (let's just say mike lamb for the purposes of discussion). the objective would be to convert the $36m on rolen's contract into a package of talent that looks something like matt cain and mike lamb --- a package of talent that's younger and at least as good but not a penny more expensive; a package of talent that's worth the money.

i've often defended the cards' unwillingness to spend, because i've often thought the expenditures under consideration were unwise ones; refusal to make a bad investment does not constitute cheapness, it constitutes intelligence. but in this case, spending some $$$$ might rid the cards of a problematic relationship and bring young talent in return --- a good investment. it's the owners' job to facilitate that possibility and give mozeliak a decent product to offer at market. so far, it appears they haven't opened the coffers far enough to empower him.

one of the teams that has expressed interest in rolen, the dodgers, signed andruw jones last night to a deal worth 2 years and $36m --- another reason i think rolen at 3 yrs / $18m would fetch lots of interest. in this market, the jones deal looks like a bargain; i'd a lot rather have him on that contract than torii hunter for 5 / $90m, or aaron rowand on whatever dumb deal he ends up getting. while i think the cards could have afforded andruw for 2 years at that price, i don't view him as the type of player mo should be looking at. if the cards were better positioned to contend in the short term, then sure --- great buy. i think the dodgers will be pleased with their acquisition. but he wouldn't have got the cardinals where they need to go. he's expensive, past 30, and coming off a bad season --- the type of player the cards already have enough of; the type of player that got the team into its current mess.

step back and think about this team for just one second. about 20 percent of its 2008 payroll is tied up in three players --- encarnacion ($6.5m), mulder ($6.5m), and carpenter ($10.5m) --- with almost no value. one can't play at all; one hasn't been any good since 2005 and is coming off back-to-back surgeries; and one will miss 2/3 of the season before attempting his comeback from back-to-back surgeries. another 20 percent of the payroll --- edmonds ($8m) and rolen ($12m) --- is tied up in old, injury-prone, badly diminished players. those 5 contracts are among the 7 richest ones on the team, and they're all liabilities --- big ones. so big that only a team with a peaking farm system could hope to overcome them. there is a line of argument which contends that the team can be fixed via the acquisition of still more pricey, injured and/or declining stars. i reject that notion.

mozeliak was quoted the other day like so: "I feel really torn in trying to address '08 to make some impact to make sure we're competitive within our division, where it might sacrifice something for '09 and '10." that quote gives me comfort. it tells me that mo has his priorities in order: 2008 is a lower priority than 2009 and beyond. that's a rational approach, and mo should stick to it. but his patience will be tested by the win-now demands of fans and (in some cases) the media. i think it would be constructive for the cards to drop the pretense that they are competing in 2008 . . . . ok, from a marketing standpoint maybe they can't afford to do that. but they could say: "we'll be as competitive as our veterans make us. we'll be competitive if edmonds can avoid injuries; if rolen's shoulder is healthy; if mulder is able to contribute; if carpenter can give us a lift at the end of the year. we're always on the lookout for opportunities to improve the team, but they have to be long-term solutions as opposed to quick fixes. when we have a clean shot at a long-term solution, we'll bag it; in the meantime we'll rely on the warriors who won us 2 pennants and a world title."

some people would scream bloody murder at that statement, but others would appreciate the candor. fans get upset when their intelligence is insulted --- when the team offers empty promises ("we're looking for upgrades, we intend to compete") that it knows it probably can't live up to. candor might hurt the cardinals' ticket sales in the short term, but it won't do any long-term damage. lack of candor, on the other hand, damages the franchise's credibility and makes people cynical. reading the comments here every day, and at all the other cardinal blogs and the p-d boards, it's clear that cynicism is spiking. no matter what happens --- antonetti doesn't come here, la russa returns, a trade does or doesn't happen, an injured player does or doesn't come back healthy, etc etc --- the organization immediately gets denounced for acting in bad faith. while i don't think most of those accusations are warranted, i totally understand why people go there. they go there because the franchise is so far from honest in its communication. the cardinals talk down to their customers; they won't tell us truths they think we don't want to hear, or truths they think we can't handle. instead they serve up harmless little lies --- except over time and in the aggregate, the lies do inflict harm; frustration mounts, resentment builds.

the relationship between rolen and la russa seems to have deteriorated due to bad communication (or total lack thereof); there's a danger that a similar dynamic could pollute the relationship between the fan base and team --- probably not to the point of divorce, but certainly to the point of trial separation. there are two sides to every relationship. fans have to have realistic expectations; the franchise has to cultivate them. it's not happening that way right now.

* * * * * * * * * * *

marketplace note: milton bradley's docs like what they see, according to ken rosenthal:
Free-agent outfielder Milton Bradley, recovering from surgery to repair a torn ACL and MCL, received an encouraging report after visiting Dr. Tim Kremchek on Monday.

Bradley is expected to be ready by either Opening Day or April 15, and figures to land a one-year contract after some of the more prominent outfielders are signed.

i always thought he'd be a good fit for the cards, based purely on the merits. he's an even better fit now --- another crazy, combative ego; another unpredictable character for the soap opera.

0 recs  |  Comment 202 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Rolen vs. LaRussa
I'd keep Scotty too, if it was simply down to these two.  I don't know if TLR thinks he can motivate Rolen with his comments or what, but I wish he'd keep it to himself.

I do like that they just aren't giving away Rolen, but I, like you, would hope that if they could get good young talent in return, they'd think about paying some of the salary.

by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 9:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Simply down 2 two
I think that might be an underlying current there, C70.  There are certainly more than the two to consider.

I feel there are two major opposing forces adjusting the free agency pay-scale:  the greater value placed on team-controlled youth by organizations and the spoils of revenue sharing.   The free agents want thier cut, therefore teams are (finally!) starting to appreciate the value and upside of team-controlled youth appropriately.  

Where this seems important to us is the timing of re-upping Albert should we (I hope!) keep him.   I think the dust will settle on contract adjustments soon.  Therefore, I feel the best time to approach Albert about extending his time in StL would probably be later 2009.   Now, my hope is by late 2009 we are competitive, have a youngish team with upside that tends to re-inspire, keep focused veterans.  I also hope we wisely spend our freed budget dollars.   I don't want to enter that time with a whole year or so of deteriorating team chemistry due to Rolen/LaRussa.   I also don't want to enter that time still payroll constricted and talent-challenged/non-competitive.   I think this would have a huge influence on Albert's likeliness to remain here.   And, probably a huge influence on how much he would accept to stay here.  

I could live with taking 2 months of 2008 to raise Rolen's value or try to somehow resolve relationships or whatever.   The Cardinals simply cannot let it go on longer.

And, speaking of Pujols, how does he feel about all this now?  It seems I somehow got the impression he was baffled by Rolen's dislike of Tony and that Albert has great respect for Tony.   Was that speculation?  Did I read that somewhere?  I cannot remember.   Do Rolen and Albert have a strained relationship?   I know which of those two I would pick!

by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 10:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dead on, LB.
I'm one of those who often gets upset with the tenor of so many comments from fans, who jump to conclusions; who think they understand dynamics within the management and ownership that they can't possibly have enough info to understand; who use any event, statement or rumor to buttress their pre-existing prejudices about this manager or that owner, etc.  And I'm guilty of a lot of those things too, now and then.

OTOH, there is an old principle of PR and advertising--that if your customers don't understand what you're trying to get across to them, you aren't doing your job; rationalize all you want, but at the end of the day your image and reputation are your responsibility.  So while I don't think the Cardinals' sins w.r.t. PR are as great as many seem to think, it is their job to fix it.  A little honesty from the front office would go a long way.  

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wondering what happened
Tony has been uncharacteristically outspoken on Rolen.  It makes me wonder if something has spurred this latest out-burst by Don Tony.  Could it be that the Cardinals had a trade they like worked out and Rolen said no?  I have no idea but the timing seems odd.

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 9:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lets do something? Anything!!

  Well I'm a Card fan sitting up here in Michigan & yes its COLD! Unless your a tiger fan, especially with all the hot deals they are making. Dave Dombroski GM for the Tigers has been heralded a genius for all the trades he's getting done. I keep waiting for something to happen for the Cards & all I read is what to do & what not to do.
   Lets do something! Mike Illitch owner of the Tigers & the Little Ceasars pizza empire is not shy to spend money this off season. Since Budweiser is a sponsor of the Cards should I invest my money in beer or continue to buy $5 large pizza's because come spring the Tigers ar loaded with toppings!
CliffNotes

by CliffNotes on Dec 6, 2007 9:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

What is Rolen Worth?
I think the Cardinals are dramatically over-valuing Rolen. He has not been productive for 1.5 seasons. Really, he has only hit well for half a season over the last 3 years. He can't get along with his manager and adamantly wants off his team. His contract is expensive.

I liked him as a player, but one has to wonder if he has ANY hitting left in him. Will Carroll speculated that his shoulder very likely can't withstand regular play. Based on the last 1.5 seasons, it is quite possible he will never slug .450 again over a season. Jeff Bagwell went from being a top first baseman to worthless pretty quickly.

If Rolen bounces back next year, you could look bad trading him. However, if he slugs .480 for April, .425 for May, .350 for June, and in July announces his shoulder is bothering him and he needs to go on the DL, I think you'd be pretty happy if you had simply given him away to someone willing to take some of his salary.

I think the second scenario is likely enough that teams have to worry. He is a very risky player--he has the potential to have decent upside, but he also could be an expensive non-contributor for 3 years. If I was a GM who traded anything for Rolen and it didn't work out, I'd be worried about explaining how I didn't see it coming.

If the Cardinals want talent for Rolen and want to pick up none of his salary, they are going to have trouble moving him. They need to realize that it is quite possible they will pay Rolen $36 million over the next three years and still need someone to play 3B.

by tarakas on Dec 6, 2007 9:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The soap opera analogy
is apt. If I want to watch a "male soap opera", there's always professional wrestling. And I would note that it is LaRussa that's going public with all this crap. Rolen, whatever his other faults, is keeping his mouth shut. (So far, anyway. Today's article may change that.) I personally am unwilling to lay all the blame on Rolen. It's true, as many people have noted, that it's not uncommon to have to deal with an asshole boss, but it's also true that LaRussa is not really Rolen's boss. Rather, he is Rolen's immediate supervisor, and in my experience good bosses (i.e., Bill DeWitt) try to install people in management with sufficient people skills that they don't drive employees away. For every Dave Stewart that loves LaRussa, there's an Ozzie Smith. I'm not privy to what has occurred behind closed doors, and honestly I have no way of gauging who's "at fault", but I have to say that "I don't know why he's unhappy" rings a little false to me. I think I have SOME idea, and I've never met Rolen. One thing I definitely give LaRussa credit for is understanding human psychology, and it surprises me that somebody like that would send a "here's what you need to do to fix your career"-type letter to someone who seems to have the temperament that Rolen does. Is it barely possible that the entire point of sending that letter was to create the very situation we are currently experiencing, as part of a power play to get rid of a player LaRussa doesn't see eye to eye with? Just a thought.

Stay tuned for tomorrow's episode, when we find out that Mozeliak's wife is cheating on him with Luhnow, and the SHOCKING RETURN OF WALT JOCKETTY!

"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

lol
Wait! Wait!  Is that Scott Rolen's music?!?!?!  Oh my GOD...he's gonna stomp a mudhole in somebody!!!
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen's music is
Garbage's "I'm Only Happy When it Rains"...
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well put, lb.
A little more candor from ownership/management would be appreciated.  If the Cardinals are serious about making moves with a view toward long-term solutions, then just say so.  There will always be fans who insist on the "win now" mode, but I think that the majority would be on board with the improving for the future plan IF they knew there actually was said plan.

OTOH, Cub fans have been saying, "Wait till next year!" for a century now.      

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 9:41 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

So far,
the most rational words I've read on these subjects, LB. I'm still giving Mo the benefit of the doubt for now--it's a long way to Spring Training and some decent positive changes could still happen--but he sure hasn't displayed much imagination in his dealings yet. Something like what you suggest above would be far more desirable than continuing this tiresome soap opera. C'mon, Mo--use your head.

by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Polling the players
TLR gives the impression that Rolen was the only player that didn't want him to come back.  Does anyone know precisely what form the polling took?  Was it a secret ballot overseen by the UN?  Or did Don Tony dare players who knew the decision on whether to return was Tony's alone to tell him to his face that they didn't want him back?  I think it is awfully disingenuous to claim complete support from the roster if you gauge that support in a totally biased way.

If his players are so thrilled to have him as manager their on-field performance over the last couple hundred regular season games is kind of an odd way to show it.

I know this really doesn't matter and I probably shouldn't waste everyone's time by bitching about TLR, but I am really disturbed by his latest statements. I think they are completely unprofessional and not in the best interests of the ballclub.  Thoughts?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Performance
Like Pujols playing with a pulled hammy and torn ucl.
Eckstein playing with a bad back.
Edmonds playing with a bad foot.
Rolen playing with a bad shoulder.
Mulder playing with a detached rotator cuff.
Kennedy playing with a torn knee.
Aaron Miles and Scott Speizio doing everything but catch.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.
I don't think the Cards' on-field performance showed a lack of support for TLR, giveml.  If you consider how many body blows the team absorbed during the '07 season (your ace is down and [later] out after one game, another pitcher dies, numerous injuries, etc.), they never quit.  They just kept going in spite of being left for dead by their critics.  Remember lb's zombie analogies?

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 10:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True--
Fact is, over the years it sure seems to me that these guys would tramp thru the fires of hell for LaRussa (02 is another great example). As much as some would like to make this Rolen thing an example of a larger clubhouse problem, I don't buy it. LaRussa has taken this team to 2 WS and a World Championship (with a decidedly inferior team that burst to life when the chance presented itself). Ballplayers respect and remember that. If the Rolen problem was clubhouse wide (no matter how we view LaRussa's specious "polling of the team), he would not have been re-signed.

by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re: "last couple hundred...
...regular season games"

that's conveniently overlooking the little world series thing that happened...

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 11:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get this.
Why does everyone here seem to side with Rolen on this issue?  Does everyone seem to forget how this whole thing started?  Tony benched Rolen in favor of Spiezio in the 2006 playoffs; Spiezio had been on fire at the plate down the stretch and in the first part of the playoffs, Tony was simply doing what he thought was best for the team to win.  Rolen was the one who publicly stated that he didn't like it and wasn't informed before the benching, but if he's not getting it done he shouldn't be expecting to play anyway

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Tony has handled it well at all, and his statements in the article are simply shortsighted and poorly timed.  I get the feeling that Tony is playing with management here; playing bad cop to try and spoil a deal and keep Scott around -- he does mindf**king things like that all the time with players, and I don't think that he and Mo are completely on the same page.  

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Was that the beginning?
I thought it had been going on longer than that.  I thought the playoff benching was just one of those "last straw" type things.

by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tino Martinez was the Beggining
I have heard, from Martin Kilcion (or however it is spelled), BM (bowel movement? No bernie Miklas) and others that it all started with Tino.  Tino and Scott were tight and the Organization didn't like the direction Rolen's attitude was going with Tino. (Tino getting in Rolens ear sayin' thing like, Joe Torre just lets guys play, Tony messes with the line-up too much.)  They pretty much paid Tino's salary for a year to get him out of here away from their big investment in Rolen.  Then again that could all be hear-say.

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if even remotely true
about Tino... I dislike him more than I did before... which is quite an accomplishment.

Tony never relied on a player more- and gotten less for it - than with (ugh) Tino.

And that I-used-to-be-a-Yankee BS was Tino's (seemingly) incredible response.  If you can't succeed in St. Louis (great fans, who gave Tino every chance) then where could he?

by the Tewk on Dec 6, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Martin
Said it yesterday on "The FOX Hole" on 1380.

by gonzostl on Dec 7, 2007 8:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What is wrong with Mo
We are 'in' on Aaron Rowand but we couldn't even sniff the GREAT contract on Andruw Jones for 2 years/$36 M.  You overpay for it but it is 2 years!  I'd rather overpay there than commit to the 5 years Rowand is demanding.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Dead on
I don't think we need an OF, necessarily, unless we're going to trade Duncan or Ankiel. But that's a damned good contract for the Dodgers -- much better than the 5 and $50-55 M Rowand will get -- infinitely better. Mo should've been in on that, no question -- if he's going to get involved in Rowand.

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 9:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I vote for choice D:
none of the above.

Outfielders are not a priority - especially aging fat ones like Jones or "contract year in a bandbox" guys like Rowand.

I actually hope Mo is blowing smoke up our arses regarding Rowand.  And Jones would improve this team offensively, sure, but Mo still would have to trade Edmonds (he'd want something of value) and then flip Duncan/prospect for a #2 starter to make us contenders.

It's not in the Cards this year, boys.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 9:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Threadjack
BTW, if you haven't read Erik's interview with DGoold over at Future Redbirds, what are you waiting for?  It's pure gold.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with Billy Beane
We need impact bats, I don't care if they have to shuffle positions around.  I'm far more concerned with having a 4th and 5th hitters that aren't the worst in the league.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 6, 2007 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Andruw Jones contract structure
$12 M signing bonus
$15 M this year
$9 M in 2009

That makes me cry.  We could have had Andruw Jones for $9 M next year payroll wise, allowing us STILL $30 M to spend on FA.

Come on Mo, be alittle more creative.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoops
flip that:
  1. $9 M
  2. $15 M
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No thanks
I understand your clamoring for something, ANYTHING, to get done...but we are not a player away and the Dodgers just might be.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Andruw Jones for 2 years allows
  • a RH power bat (allowing Rolen to be moved)
  • a superior CF defender (allowing Edmonds/Ankiel to be moved)
  • another above average MLB OF (allowing Duncan to be traded)
If you've added Andruw's power and defense and given yourself room to move Rolen, Edmonds, Ankiel or Duncan (any combination) to get 1 or 2 starting pitchers...I think you make yourself alot closer to being 1 or 2 players away.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
See my post a few spots above - yeah we could've signed him, then TRY to move Jimmy, TRY to move Ankiel, and TRY to move Duncan.  You and I know that Mo threw those names out there in trade discussions.  

I get where you're going - but I don't think you can indict Mo on "lack of creativity" that you cite him for just because the market doesn't value the players we'd like the Cards to move.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trades and FA signings
are two-way streets, remember. None of us(unless some of you are actually Cardinals employees) know what is really said or offered in any proposed deal, so indicting Mozeliak on a perceived lack of creativity is very premature, IMHO. As Jim Mora once said, "You think you know, but you just don't know."
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This
is what I always think when people ask - why not trade schumaker, Bo Hart, and Miguel Mejia for Alex Gordon and a prospect?

by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AJ defense.
I don't think Jones plays very good defense in center any more.  I am not a numbers guy, but I believe the defensive metrics have him rated among the bottom of center fielders today.
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 6, 2007 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Number
I am not a big numbers guy when discussing defense.  I like to watch a guy play generally as much as possible to see what he looks like.

I can tell you back in April and he caught a ball in the LF gap about 10 feet from the warning track that made me say "WOW", Jimmy would have been 15 feet away from catching the ball.  Andrew Jones is still very good so don't let people say he is not.  If anything he may have been a step or step and a half slower only due to weight.  He is still top notch.  There is not a CF in baseball who gets jumps like that guy does.  I suggest watching a game and watch how soon AJ makes moves, like when the guy is swinging.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Fielding Bible
has him at the top of the CF charts in the NL for '07. It seems reports of his demise have been premature.

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I stand corrected.
My apologies.  Thanks for doing the legwork Huston.  
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 7, 2007 4:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't understand
how signing him for that price would really add just $9 million to next year's payroll if he's getting a $12 million signing bonus. you could say it only adds $9 million, but it doesn't. he's basically getting $19 million a year for two years, however you want to slice it.

i just don't think this team needs to add any more centerfielders. they already have plenty of candidates there.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

correction:
$18 million a year, not $19. i had read elsewhere that it was $38 million deal.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Andruw
I do understand why the Cardinals didn't go after Andruw.  While Rasmus sounds great on paper right now, he is still a relatively unknown quantity, and just cannot cover the same amount of ground he used.  His bat and his defense really would have lit a spark on this team I think, plus that would have allowed Edmonds to play LF.  If management was brazen enough to not even ask Edmonds if we would move position that is just foolish.  The guy loves playing here and I think he enjoyed the World Series win more than anyone else.  Getting Andruw would have allowed the team much more flexibility in other deals, and would have helped Edmonds bat.  The move at the very least would have allowed for a competitive team in 09 with a young outfield again anchored by a Gold Glover in CF.

The talk of Rowand is interesting and he would likely be a very popular player in St. Louis from the Eckstein, Oquendo, McEwing mold.  Blue collar guy with better skills than those other guys.  I don't think we should really be concerned with "blocking" Rasmus in center.  He's still young and can play any outfield position well.

Money also needs to stop being an issue with this team.  Didn't we make something like $40 million NET profit off the World Series, plus we've sold out the stadium for basically three years in a row.  The Ballpark village is finally blowing up. Players like Izturis and heaven forbid, Glendon Rusch should not be acceptable for this team anymore.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

opening
I do not understand

oops

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you are assuming
that edmonds would agree to move to left field. but i don't expect edmonds and jones to be much better (if any) than ludwick, duncan, or ankiel next year, to be honest. this team has so many needs, and another CF is just not one of them at this point.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rasmus
has more value as a CF than he does at the corners. the CF position is not simply interchangeable with the corners. it requires better defense and more speed (among other things), while the corners require more offense (especially LF) because the defensive demands are not as great.

players such as mike cameron and aaron rowand (and even torii hunter) would not be as valuable in the corners because it would not utilize their defensive skills fully, and their bats would rate lower compared to other corner OFs than they do to other CFs. for example, cameron is an acceptable (if declining) hitter for a CF but would be basically unacceptable putting up a .750 OPS in LF. it bothers me to see people complaining about us not going after one of these overpriced CFs when that would really be a bad use of the team's resources.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, the corners,
esp. RF, require a better arm than CF usually does

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Blocking Rasmus
But do you agree that blocking Rasmus should not be an issue.  If we keep him the kid is going to play, and maybe it's not such a bad thing to have him in a corner for a year or two.  It would maybe take pressure off of him and allow his bat to develop.  Look at Molina.  His offense was horrible the first half of his first year and he's developed nicely now.  I think a lot of that has to do with gaining comfort.  There's always the mantra in baseball "if you can hit, you'll play."  I think Rasmus' bat is what's most valuable to this team in the future, and as Valatan says your right fielder generally needs to have the best arm and best speed of your outfield . And I think most people who have played baseball would agree with that.  I'm just throwing something out there.  Maybe Edmonds would not have changed positions, but I think he would have, and honestly had Pujols not been forced to 1B, I think Edmonds would be there by now.

Has anyone else noticed how Andruw's deal resembles current NFL contracts?  A lot of money up-front but he would be easy to unload after next year in which the Dodgers pay him 9 mil.  I could easily see them trading him after next year and assuming half that 15 mil, Thus paying him 16 mil for one year because I would bet that signing bonus is a lifetime payment deal, albeit guaranteed money.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

move him to a corner
or trade 'im for Rasmus.  Or trade Duncan.  A rebuilding team should be stockpiling talent to trade away, and filling in the rest with short term free agents.  

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ugh
trade him for pitching, not Rasmus, obviously.

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my 2 cents on the outfield
Let Rasmus start relieving Edmonds in center and playing the corners some. Keep Duncan and Ankiel in the corners most of the time. Edmonds true value this year lies in working in with the younger outfielders and teaching them how to play the game well. Keep another bench player that can play the outfield and trade the others for some pitching talent.

by steve on Dec 7, 2007 1:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if it was a secret ballot...
how would he know the only dissenter was Rolen? So, yeah, I agree, "disingenuous" fits.
"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
That was supposed to be a reply to Hardcore.
"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
Why would that be directed at me?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
God, I am NOT having a good day. Sorry, I was trying to correct my earlier mistake, and I read the signature too quickly. What I meant, of course, was that I was replying to...oh, forget it, I'd just screw it up again.
"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 10:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're absolutely right about ownership
I'd much rather spend some cash and get decent, young players than spend more and get Aaron Rowand. Do we know, however, that it's the owners who are unwilling to eat some salary or Mo who is unwilling to have the team do it? Do we know it's the owner's fault? Not taking their side. I really don't know.

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rolen v La Russa
A few observations in response to LB's timely and thoughtful assessment:
  1. There's not much significance in "picking" Scotty or Tony, since Tony is now signed and you can't go back on that.  But since LB put that teaser out there, I'll bite:  Tony has taken us to 2 World Series and won one, with decent and then inferior talent.  IMHO he offers superior ability to most replacement candidates, in a positon that matters. Scott has become what LB said in an earlier post: a terrific defensive 3B who will hit .275 and drive in 80.  I've always loved his no-nonsense approach, I questioned his attitude about playing time while he was hurting, but from a purely economic perspective, he's just a far more replaceable asset than Tony.
  2. On a more practical level, I'm mystified as to how someone as smart as Tony can be so bad at managing THIS situation.  A letter?  To a guy you spend 10 hours a day, 200 days a year standing right next to?  And now today's news: I don't see how going public with his latest pronouncement can do anything but hurt his organization.  It further enrages Scotty, making it more likely he sulks, becomes a cancer in the clubhouse, etc.  It signals irreparable rift to his suitors: how much less $ might we have had to pick up than the $18M LB mentions without these comments?  Economic systems work on supply and demand Tony, and you live in a very small system and signaled you have a surplus of 3B.  Let us know how that works out for you.  It just smacks of pure ego to me.  
In the end, I don't think DeWit made a mistake resigning Tony, but I do think they should have charted a clearer course with him on the guy that's 12% of your payroll and a known issue.  Or if this is the course they charted . . . hmmm.

As an aside, was anyone else curious why there's a stenotype machine next to Tony in this picture?  Was he doing a press conference or being deposed??
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/photos/2/2b5fb5bb-962f-4dab-8a40-7293d0c0804f.html?SITE=MOSTP& ;SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

by Secret Weapon on Dec 6, 2007 9:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent Post, LB...
I'm an infrequent poster, but I read VEB everyday...I'm not a sabrmatician like many of you here, but I try to follow along and understand...I look at things from the point of view of the "average" fan, I guess, and one of my beefs with the Cards is what I consider their lack of candor...I understand you want to fill the stadium, but don't treat me like a dope...despite what you might hear on the talk shows and read on the boards, I think many, if not most fans understand that we have had it pretty good the last 10 years or so, and about half the teams in baseball would trade places with us in a heartbeat...in that regard, I wonder just how much of an attendance hit the Cards would take if they spoke honestly and realistically about the prospects for the 2008 season...maybe I'm wrong, but I think a decent percentage of the fan base (and I'm not sure exactly how much that is) would accept a year or two to "reload" back into contention...besides that, this is a well loved franchise that still has  strong regional appeal and will draw well no matter how bad the team is, if the fan base feels the f.o. has a master plan and is willing to stick to it...I've been watching Cardinal baseball for over 40 years, and the team has never really bottomed out attendance wise, unlike places like San Francisco, San Diego and even the south side of Chicago...the difference between then and now is that there is an educated and vocal community of bloggers and sabrmaticians who cannot be fooled and b.s.'ed into believing that everything is okay when it's not...to the Cardinal brain trust, I say: try some honesty, folks...you might be surprised how receptive and supportive your fan base would be.

by tbell61 on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

From a purely (cynical) business standpoint...
...all any ballclub needs to do to keep ticket sales "up" is contend for a division title late into the season. Fans tend to be optimistic; if the team is, say, four games out on September 1, those games still have meaning! Witness last season's "Zombie" Redbirds; against all odds, they still had a shot at the playoffs until their September collapse.

I agree that the Cardinals have committed several PR blunders over the past several seasons; La Russa should have kept his mouth shut regarding Rolen. But a bunch of those "blunders" concerned injuries to Cardinal players... it seems as if the "rosy" scenarios never worked out; whoever was injured always wound up with the "worst-case" outcome! (Rolen, Mulder, Edmonds, and on and on...) Sometimes the best answer a ballclub can give the public is "I don't know... we hope (player) will be back in (time period), but we'll have to wait and see how he progresses."

The Cardinals don't have to beat the Red Sox/Yankees/Tigers/Angels (or even the Mets) in the regular season; they only have to beat out the other NL Central teams to make the playoffs, where (as in 2006) anything can happen.

If Rolen really wants out of St. Louis, the best way for him to get his wish is to come to ST and mash the ball; a hot start would make him more attractive to those teams looking for a third-sacker.

I agree that being more forthright with the fans about the club's chances would be viewed favorably by most of the fanbase; the folks that spew on the STLToday forums or those who comment even here aren't necessarily those who buy tickets!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

couldn't agree more
The real Cards fans don't care if the team needs a year or two to rebuild. We'll keep watching them.

On a more cynical note though, we'll watch them as much as we can due to the regional blackout &!#)(!. I live in Alaska and the only games I get to see are Yanks/Sox and whoever the Mariners are losing to. Selig needs to pull his head out of somewhere and do away with the regional blackouts.

by steve on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's Negotiating
I think what Mo is doing right now is setting expectations. He's asking for more than he knows he can get, so when he comes back in a week or 3 and 'concedes' to throwing in 1/4 of Scotty's salary, it sounds downright reasonable to the team that could use a fantastic 3rd basement and may just jump at it with a good young player and a prospect.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

ug..
basemen.. I don't know anyone with a 2nd basement much less a 3rd.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That made me
snort coffee through my nose. Thanks for the laugh.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, in the world of MLB
starts, there are probably quite a few with 3 basements!  And Cardsrul, I'm happy that you got a laugh out of it, but now the image of coffee coming out of my nose is putting me off my lunch.  Thanks a lot!  =D

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Coffee through the sinuses
That must have been a rush, huh?

Caffeine, straight to the brain.

by arch support on Dec 6, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bravo, LB!
You always offer an objective perspective that can help teach fans how to size up the situation. Unfortunately, the situation for this club is not good right now, and won't get appreciably better until 2009, when gobs of contracts come off the books, and perhaps guys like Rasmus, Perez, Mather, Hoffpauir and Boggs are (hopefully) ready to contribute to the big club.

I really thought Moz's hands were tied coming into this offseason, so I did not expect much in terms of roster repair. But I think DeWitt & Moz do need to work on their public relations, because I see some symptoms of foot-in-mouth disease. Signing Izturis so early was questionable, but calling him a "safety net" is laughable. And while I think "doing whatever it takes" can be liberally interpreted as not doing anything stupid in 2008 to jeopardize 2009 and beyond, I doubt Joe Cardinal Fan takes the same view.

by Hungry Jack on Dec 6, 2007 10:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rolen's Response
I didn't see this mentioned in either the Strauss article or the Brewers blog, and I thought you guys might find it interesting:

...Rolen issued a cool statement through his agents, Sam and Seth Levinson.

"These are matters that I never discussed publicly and are matters that should have remained private," Rolen said. "I will not dignify Tony's comments with any response at this time."...

Full article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3143441

"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 10:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

With any response?
or any public response?

Cause, not responding is what caused LaRussa to go off on you in the first place.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rule 5: Cards grabbed Brian Barton
Tampa was expected to take him at #1.  He fell to the Cards, who grabbed him.

Seems like an upgrade over Taguchi for sure.  Here's some BA info:

Early Rule 5 Draft preview

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

and here's a Q+A w/ barton
from baseball america: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/263799.html.

i think the cards caught a break; barton wasn't supposed to be available when they picked. this could be part of the solution to the leadoff problem; barton has a career OBP of .416 in the minor leagues.

by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

more on barton
sickels had him ranked as the #3 prospect in the indians system heading into last season and rated him as a B+ prospect with the comment: "only negative is age, but I love his tools, skills, statistics, intelligence, and work ethic."

http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2006/12/19/1141/8741

by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His
BABIP was ridiculously high his first few years in the minors... Is that typical of + prospects?
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 11:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's has above average speed
so you'd expect the BABIPs to be somewhat higher as he beats out some infield dribblers and the like but those numbers are still wildly out of context with his line-drive rate.  As a bench player he could still see his BA and OBP come down while still being a useful cog.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can see that speed
in his batted ball chart on FirstInning (link provided a few posts earlier, thanks). He hits a lot of ground balls to the left side of the infield for a lefty, but keeps a decent batting average on those hits with his speed.

Even if his OBP drops sixty points he's still the best leadoff-type we've got,a potential lefty masher (or perhaps, with his power, lefty poker), and a great pinch runner. With Ludwick and Speez around to provide power hitting backups for the corner outfield sports, he could make a perfect 5th outfielder. Solid pickup.

But poor Skip just can't seem to get a break. I wonder if he could packaged somewhere, though I know his value isnt' high.

WWJD -- What Would Jocketty Do

by joshuadivine on Dec 6, 2007 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

intuitively
I'd think that average BABIP in the minor leagues would be higher than in the majors, as fielding isn't as good.  I imagine that the standard rules of thumb like "LD% + .12" don't really apply.  

Of course .472 BABIP is ridiculous and an 8% LD rate at AAA is also ridiculous.  Almost looks like an error, because I've never seen an LD rate that low...

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Defense
Which OF position does he usually play? I am being lazy(ier) today so I will ask rather than research.

by bdief on Dec 6, 2007 12:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm, rightie batter
So he could complement Ludwick.

by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If we still had space on the 40 man
we could have picked up Leyson Septimo, a former decent hitting OF who is now a pitcher that throws 100 MPH.  He's 6 feet tall and only 150.  He's like a taller pedro martinez.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Barring trades/Bradley
Unless we move some of our glut of outfielders, I guess that means we won't see Bradley.   I was very intrigued by the option also.   But, hey, this is cheaper and has upside...I'm not complaining.

It seems to have ramifications on when we are likely to see Rasmus, also.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How are people going to avoid confusing him
with Brian Barden? or, for that matter, with Daric Barton?

Apparently, Brian Barton is the one who travels with a pet turtle

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=680#more-680

by tdawg on Dec 6, 2007 12:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

don't worry
people will still get them confused. another twist is that he has now gone from the organization where chris "antonelli" (sic) is the asst. gm to the one where he was almost the gm.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nickname?
I smell a nickname a brewing for this guy if he makes the show....any ideas?

by eglasier on Dec 6, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about a nickname
But when I read the bit about traveling with a turtle it made me think of the crab man from "My name is Earl"

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tutleton is not bad
We all know about ARF, but what would a turtle lover name his foundation?  What sound does a turtle make anyway?

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you can find out
if you search for "desert tortoise" on youtube.  It's actually quite educational ;)
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But will he stay?
It looks like he could stand some more time at AAA. May have to work out a deal with Cleveland.

His lower-level walk rates look fantastic. Maybe some time at AAA will help it recover.

by 26thMan on Dec 6, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not like we're favored to win the division
I say keep him on the roster for at least a month and two, and see if he can hit big league pitching now.  If he sticks, we just got a cheap solid bat.  If he doesn't, he's a defensive replacement bench player.  Either way, he seems worth the roster spot to me.  

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Roster
As a Rule 5 draftee don't we need to keep him on the 25 man roster all year?

by realbrit70 on Dec 6, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

right.
I don't mind him sticking on the bench all year--it's not like there are going to be many season changing ABs that a marginally better PH would be able to provide.  The worst case scenario of keeping him on the bench for the whole season is that he'd be a late inning defensive replacement.

The best case scenario is that we've found this seasons' everyday third outfielder and leadoff hitter.

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

should he stay
any word on why cleveland cut him loose this way rather than trade?  age and declining performance aside, he seems to have value.

by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 7:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Barton could lead off and be RH OF w some power
Barton might fill two needs.  The Cardinals badly need a leadoff hitter, of course.  And they need a righthanded outfielder with at least some power, versus LHP (perhaps in a platoon with Edmonds), especially given the uncertainty about Rolen's health. Aside from Pujols, only Molina provides any righthanded punch, and Yadier doesn't provide much, even though his average improved a lot this year.

The knee problem that has plagued Barton is evidently fixed now (though I question the statement by stat analyst Luhnow that "our sense is" that Barton will be ready for spring training. You mean Luhnow goes on "intuition" as well as hard data?! Wow.

Excerpt from MiLB.com:

"We didn't think he would be available," St. Louis vice president for amateur scouting and player procurement Jeff Luhnow said. "There was a lot of competition for that spot, but this is who we had in mind. The reports and analysis we had on him were great."

Barton has a .316 career average in three Minor League seasons and is coming off a year in which he hit .305 with 10 homers and 66 RBIs while splitting time between Double-A Akron and Triple-A Buffalo. He stole 21 bases this year and 41 in 2006, but recently had surgery to repair a microfracture in his knee.

He went to his own doctor to have the surgery done rather than have the team doctors address the problem, but it's unclear whether that played a role in the Tribe leaving him unprotected. Luhnow didn't seem concerned about the surgery.

"We saw him a couple of days ago in Florida," he said. "We know he has a knee brace on now, but our sense is that he will be ready for Spring Training."

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071206&content_id=327945&vkey=news _milb&fext=.jsp

by CardsWin on Dec 6, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he goes on the DL,
does that count has him being taken off of the 25 man?

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not officially
There was discussion of this on XM today.  They talked about how a lot of rule 5 players get mysterious injuries at the end of spring training as a way of extending out their trial period.

However they cannot stay on the DL for long.  They also referenced how the player has to be on the active roster for at least 90 days during the regular season.

by enoscountry on Dec 6, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's the 40-man that matters
not the 25-man. i think that's what you meant, though.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

correcting myself
what am i talking about? you're right, it is being on the 25-man roster that matters for rule 5 draftees. sorry about that.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm thrilled with the pick
he has wrinkles, sure but he was the best player available and i'd give him a shot at not only making the team as a back up OF, but maybe at some point being the team's lead off hitter. His tools draw raves across the board, he's basically the almost the player we hope Daryl Jones becomes. Both have very similar tools.

HR by Luhnow and Mo here.

by erik on Dec 6, 2007 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you or does anyone
know how the hell he fell down to our spot? He was supposed to go 1st, or at the very least, very early. I'm stunned he fell to 13th(?).

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

other teams weren't looking for
a RH outfielder.  Several relievers were taken before him IIRC.  I love the Rule 5 draft but it's really made for non-contending teams and teams that have very specific low-level needs.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 7:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm a big fan
Surprised that Barton was still available when we picked. Excited to see how he performs in ST.

Also happy to see that Callix Crabbe was picked by San Diego. He's a switch-hitting 2B with a good batting eye and some base-stealing ability that I thought the Cards should have taken a chance on last year when we were looking for a second baseman.

by liam on Dec 6, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good move
I like it. Take a chance and save some $$ at the same time by getting younger. Sounds like good health (knee) and good vibes from a change of scenery would mean a decent payoff.

I only hope the clubhouse isn't so poisoned by the Rolen/LaRussa tiff that it damages morale for young, impressionable guys like Barton

by 10worldchamps on Dec 6, 2007 11:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Mending TLR-Rolen feud would take rocket scientist
Maybe Barton's training in aeornautical engineering is being undervalued.  It might actually be his most valuable talent for the Cardinals, possibly giving him the ability to help mend the situation between LaRussa and Rolen.  The way things look now, it appears that making the Redbirds fly in 2008 will probably take the expertise of a rocket scientist.  

by CardsWin on Dec 6, 2007 7:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What's happening with The Ballpark Village?
Last time I saw it was in September and it was still just a hole in the ground.  Has construction started?  I'd love to see pictures if anyone has any...

by SethWestern on Dec 6, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lake DeWitt?
I think it's still there.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
I could go take a picture for you, but you'd be sorely disappointed: its still a damned mud hole, but the remaining cement / asphalt on the northeast corner has evolved into a cheap, chainlink-fence-enclosed parking lot.  THIS is where I think DeWitt needs to open DeWallet (Bernie's pun, not mine).  Its a damned eyesore, and is well past the promised completion date (or will be, considering there is NOTHING there.)  Glad we have the all star game in a year or two -- its not like that won't embarass STL at all.  Most cities have some really taken to redeveloping their downtown epicenters . . . we have taken to allowing a big mud hole accumulate.  Awesome.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 6, 2007 11:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Centene
Centene Corporation is going to build their headquarters there is the last thing that I had heard.

by bdief on Dec 6, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By picking up part of Rolen's salary...
You are basically buying prospects. I can think of far worse ways to deploy 2008 payroll given that we are longshots at best to win anything next year. Oftentimes teams with little to no shot avoid long-term free agent deals, citing the need to maintain financial flexibility, but quietly pocket the $10-15 million that they are saving in the current year as a result. But this way we would basically move 2008 payroll to a year where it is more likely to help us win something.

by mikedallas23 on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rolen and Toney
I propose trading both of them -- to whichever team will take them -- for a ham sandwich.  And the Cardinals should pick up the entire salaries of both, if only to rid us of this insufferable soap opera.

by lerwin1 on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Crazy Theory
Ok, i know this is way out there, but several on here have stated they don't understand how Tony can totally mismanage the Rolen situation.

What if this public airing by Tony was planned by ownership/management? Do we really think this group didn't know what Tony was going to say? This is a multi-million dollar organization. You usually don't just make statements to the public all willy-nilly and piss off your bosses.

They couldn't get want they wanted in a trade. So is it possible they are trying to get him to really quit? To opt out of his contract so as not to play for Tony? I know it would probably be a first and ain't gonna happen, but what are Scotty's options now?

  1. Shut up and a play his butt off to bring up his value.
  2. Pout, play like a lazy SOB, start riding the pine and waste a roster spot.
  3. Quit.
Options 1 and 3 fulfill the teams needs. Option 2 would be hell for Rolen. The team and fans would turn on him so quickly it would make his head spin. Would he he really want to see El Hombre that ticked off? He would be forced to deal with the media as well. Rolen's reputation would be destoyed.

I think the organization played their hand yesterday and its now about who gives up first. From what we've seen, Tony doesn't give up.

9/8/1998 - Lankford's 27th

by badseed on Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

maybe capuano and
a bag of balls and 2 bats wouldnt be so bad for rolen???

by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 12:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rolen quiting
While I don't (And no-one other than Tony and Scott) know what is the real beef.  I cannot believe that Rolen would either a) quit or b) pout and play lazy.  For all of the things that Rolen seems to be or not be, he has always seemed to give 100% of what he has.

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 12:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'd agree BUT
Suddenly I realize this is probably similar to how he acted in Philly.

I'm thinking Rolen isn't my favorite Cards player anymore.

by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're probably right
But Bowa and La Russa are hyper-intense, super-Type-A personalities.

I can imagine how difficult it would be for a guy like Rolen to get along with those types.

by 26thMan on Dec 6, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A-type
A-types often clash with other A-types, so Rolen is 'one of those guys'

by cdb on Dec 6, 2007 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe
but he also could be a "don't screw with me, and everything will be fine" kind of guy.

by 26thMan on Dec 6, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with 26th man on this
and would add that Rolen's only fault, in my opinion, is that he is stubborn.  Namely, I see no change in his hitting approach this year from three years ago, despite the fact that he has a more than just 'nagging' shoulder injury.

He was a three sport 'stud' in high school {50 miles from me in Indiana) and it's very possible that THIS is his first real experience with failure.  Tony (tho it's tempting to put him in as part of the mix) is a red herring.

The challenge for Scotty is dealing with a bad shoulder and his mis-applied pride.

** p.s. to another item above... I don't see ANY similarity between LaRussa and Bowa

by the Tewk on Dec 6, 2007 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Confusion no more
Brian BarTon plays the ouTfield and has a pet Turtle.

Brian BarDen plays thirD base and Doesn't have a pet turtle.

I hope this solves any future barton/barden confusion. :)

by SethWestern on Dec 6, 2007 12:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Also, don't want to play the race card but
one is black and one is not.  That should be a dead giveaway who is whom.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok
now just figure out how to convey that when typing on a blog.  heh.  

by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

crap
I know I'm going to get stuck thinking "BarTon plays Third" base...  the turtle part should be easy to remember though.

I imagine one of the two won't be around at the end of spring training anyway.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good Post LB
I'd add that this PR debacle w/ LaRussa stinks.  Mo needs to tell his entire staff that all Rolen questions are responded with a "No comment" until we get the deal done.  I'd still contend that dumping Rolen's contract for nothing would be a marginal win, so anything better would be great.  Buying a prospect (as mikedallas put it) on top of that makes a lot of sense with our depleted system.

I love the Andruw Jones deal, but it wouldn't be a deal for the Cards.  Giving Rolen away and paying all of his salary and getting more prospects would be a better way to spend money for this team.

by rrvwmr on Dec 6, 2007 12:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Juan E.
Maybe I just missed it, but what is the latest on Juan?  Is he done?  For part of the season, the whole season, for good?
Go crazy folks, go crazy!

by WizardofOz on Dec 6, 2007 1:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Juan E
I don't have a link but the word is that he will probably never play again.

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From Matt Leach MLB.com
Encarnacion update: Manager Tony La Russa said that Juan Encarnacion is progressing slowly in his rehabilitation from being hit in the face by a foul ball.

"Last I heard there were still some issues," La Russa said.

"He's struggling. We've got our fingers crossed for him."

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OT- ESPN says
Taguchi has been released. Not a surprise especially given the general feeling and the rumored reports. Thanks for the memories. The Mighty So lives!

The one thing I wonder is whether this means the front office is serious about getting a right-handed OF bat. This move leaves just Ludwick.

by wyld stallyns on Dec 6, 2007 1:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Brian Barton
Rule V draft - ring any bells?  He replaces the Gooch.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Barton
So was released so that the Cardinals could pick up Brian Barton in the Rule 5 draft. Barton is RH Outfielder who if he is to stay with the Cardinals must be put onto the 25 man roster at the start of the season.

Assuming that happens you would have Ludwick and Barton as RH outfield bats. Although I wouldn't count out a trade.

by realbrit70 on Dec 6, 2007 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, that solves all of our problems.
Now, if only we had such fabulous trading chips as Adam Everett and Chris Burke so we too could have a chance of landing Tejada.

by wyld stallyns on Dec 6, 2007 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tejada to Stros unlikely
Sounds like the Tejada to Houston rumors were smoke not fire:

1:44 p.m., from Jayson Stark

* The Orioles' Andy MacPhail left Nashville late Thursday morning. So that makes it official -- the Orioles won't be making any deals here. Their talks with the Cubs about a trade for Brian Roberts have been back-burnered while the Orioles prioritize talks about Bedard and Miguel Tejada. But what we found on that back burner is that there is mutual interest in a deal that would send Roberts to the Cubs for pitcher Sean Gallagher, plus a second player that still needs to be determined. Despite speculation Felix Pie could wind up in that trade, teams that have talked to the Cubs about Pie say he would only be movable in a much bigger deal.

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

More from Rotoworld
"Orioles president Andy MacPhail left Nashville on Thursday morning, suggesting that he wasn't close to sending Miguel Tejada to the Astros or Brian Roberts to the Cubs.

It sounds as though Roberts to the Cubs is still a possibility, but we're guessing that the radio station reporting the Tejada-to-Houston rumor received some bad info. If the deal was that close to getting done, MacPhail would likely still be in Nashville."

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

other birds
so, still a chance to throw rolen, reyes, and ??? at the orioles for bedard and tejada.

by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a bit light
Rolen, Reyes and ??? for Tejada and Bedard?!? You're being sarcastic right? Unless that ??? is Rasmus + Garcia + Anderson I don't see any reason why they would take that. Furthermore, the reason they want to get rid of Tejada is for salary relief. Taking on Rolen negates that value.

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

tejada k
Tejada's contract has two years and 26 million left on it.

Miguel Tejada ss
6 years/$72M (2004-09)

signed as a free agent 12/03
$12M signing bonus ($4M paid in 04, $2M in 05, 06, 10, 11)
04:$3M, 05:$9M, 06:$10M, 07:$12M, 08:$13M, 09:$13M
$50,000 All Star bonus

4 years/$11.3M (2000-03)
agent: SFX (Pat Rooney, Diego Bentz, Fern Cuza)
ML service: 9.033

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/baltimore-orioles_112321768568552760.html

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've mentioned this before
and haven't gotten any feedback... what about Reyes, Anderson, Ottavino and Mitch Boggs to the O's for Bedard? Thoughts? Am I an idiot?

by Jhusk on Dec 6, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we're talking about the wrong Oriole here.
Are any of you as concerned as I am about Roberts in a Cubs uni?  I'd love the Cards to make a play for him -- he would fill our 2nd base hole, give us speed, pop and good OBP at the top of the lineup.  He's a terrific little player, the kind of guy who would kill us if he played for the Cubs.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 8:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rule 5 AAA
Can anybody tell me how this segment of the Rule 5 draft works?  I just noticed the Cardinals didn't take anyone.  Seems odd given the general scarcity of talent.  Of course, if I understood how it worked it might not be so puzzling...
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 6, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Anyone you take
has to be on the 25 man roster so that they get 90 days of service time in the following season, I believe.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cards execs on the radio tomorrow
Mark Lamping will be on the "Morning After" program on 1380 tomorrow(7-10AM CST), and Mozeliak will be on with Kilcoyne and Pelican midday(12-2 CST). Here's the url for streaming:
http://www.team1380.net/
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 2:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually,
Mo is on with Bernie right now. Early tidbits; the team is not keeping the door completely shut on trading Rasmus, but ONLY if it helps the team long-term. Focusing on FA right now; will not trade Rolen just for the sake of a trade.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If I was GM
No-one would be off the table for the right return.  I mean no-one.

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I get
I get what you are saying but I know you are not serious.

If some team was willing to give the world for Rasmus I think it would be hard to pass up on.

No one is untouchable.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

right
but look what the tigers had to add to maybin for their deal.  

by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 10:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think
Mo is probably reacting to the Tigers/Marlins trade.  Rasmus, Anderson, Perez for Cabrera, Willis, Ramirez would you have been fine with that?  I am just throwing something out but if the right deal for the right young players came along you might have to consider it.  Verlander for Rasmus?  I mean if the right deal comes along that is "lopsided" for us we would have to at least consider it.

by StLHugo on Dec 6, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it would be hard to get equal value
for Rasmus because in a few years I expect him to be doing quite well.  

I also am expecting a Springfield Cardinals' Colby Rasmus T-shirt jersey for christmas.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marlins
I think Marlins Fans once thought that about Miguel, but oh well.....

It is funny everyone around here was talking about how Wills is going to get hurt, the Tigers got jobbed and what not...

It sounds as if a lot of the "experts" who have watched Miller throw say he has quite possibly some of the worst throwing across his body mechanics they have seen.  I heard Steve Stone predict he will have a major arm problem in 1.5 years at most.  I remember that Stone said the same thing about Wood before he blew out his arm.  Maybe Detroit did a good job at dumping Miller.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting note
Steve STone often says that now.

But I don't remember him saying that a couple of years ago.  

The closer you listen, the more you hear guys jump on "mechanics problems" AFTER a pitcher has serious injuries.

by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

t-shirt
i've had a c. rasmus springfield jersey since march.

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 10:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm irrationally excited about it
to be honest.  I've already developed an unfounded liking for Mr. Rasmus.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 10:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know this is a day old.
AZ that is what we call a "man-crush"
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love Rasmus, but...
if the right deal comes along, and we get a proven stud pitcher in return, I don't see how we can't do it.  

Also, as much as I (all of us here at VEB) THINK he is going to be a stud in a few years, there really aren't any guarantees.  I am by no means advocating we trade him or get feelers out for him, but if we can get someone lights out, I say he's fair game.  IMHO, I just don't think we can bank on him being a perennial all-star, and for the right player in return, I'd be willing to give him up.  Great players come out of nowhere just as often as can't miss prospects pan out.  

Just a thought.

by joecardsfan on Dec 7, 2007 9:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mozeliak interview
to be replayed sometime in the next hour(5-6 CST) on Bernie's show, if you're near your radio(or computer if you're an out-of-towner like me).
The url, once again is:
http://www.team1380.net/
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can you imagine a circumstance
where trading Rasmus helps the team long-term? I can't. Short-term, maybe -- not long-term. The idea is pretty absurd, if you ask me.

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 6:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he finishes the first half of the season
dominating AAA, and a dumb GM offers up multiple players with equal upside, perhaps.  But it woudl end up being the type of deal you don't want to do because the risks are too large.  But there always is some sort of package whose value exceeds a given player, they just usually don't make sense for one or both teams.

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can I imagine a trade that involves moving
Rasmus and helping the team long-term? Yes. I can also imagine me hitting a homerun out of PETCO park.

They both have about the same likelihood of happening.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 7:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

would i trade colby?
for neone no, but is he untouchable? as an unproven MLB player..ah no caus eas good as he is in the minors we should all know by now that it doesnt translate to a great mlb guy...

i also would trade a prospect bat b4 prospect picthing..quality pitchers are harder to come by..if you grow your own you dont have to over spend for garbage...

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 7:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
caus eas good as he is in the minors we should all know by now that it doesnt translate to a great mlb guy...

This meme gets really old.  Prospects as good as Rasmus pan out far more often than they flameout.  Especially prospects who aren't one dimensional and play good defense.  He's going to be a major leaguer and potentially a perenial all-star.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 8:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i guess my point debated itself
hes not proven..yet bats are easier to come by as faras prospects concerned...I see your point but i think its a little high to deem him untouchable as an unproven mlb guy...sell him low now way...it'd have to be a good trade. Right now i don't see a move Id do..

I would NOT trade him for Tejada and bedard as mentioned above..just me..Now for Santana maybe..but cards dont have the prospects for that..I guess i didnt follow through in the comment..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Something like
Rolen, Reyes and Rasmus for Kemp and Laroche might fit the bill...
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 8:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no thanks
Kemp is nice but I don't think he's any better than Rasmus.  He relies on BA more than Rasmus as his walk rates aren't as high.  I don't know about his CF defense but I doubt it's any better than Rasmus.

I still like Reyes and while I'd like the whole Rolen/TLR thing to end, I don't see it as any headway trading Reyes and Rolen for LaRoche.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 8:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hypothetical
Just a question, If we were another team's fan would you trade Rasmus for Pujols? I know no deal like this is probable or likely. But I'm not of the opinion that no one is untouchable, just some players would require more then any other team is likely to give up.
"If I managed the Cubs, I'd be an Alcoholic." - Whitey Herzog

by cyko42 on Dec 6, 2007 9:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was my point
I'd trade Rasmus for someone like Alex Rodriguez or possibly Bedard since he's still cost controlled but neither of those exchanges are going to ever happen so there's no realistic trade that I can conceive of that involves Rasmus that I would like.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No...
Albert is a great player, but at the same time, he's also a 1B. (Admittedly the best defensive 1b in the game)

Good hitting CFers like Rasmus (and who will be cheap for years) are much, much harder to find than a good hitting 1b who has a reasonable contract for what, 3 years left?.

I mean, look at Hunter/Jones - they got $18 million a year contracts. Not so much of their hitting (though Jones is a great hitter in a good year) but also because of where they play - CF.

by DiscoJer on Dec 6, 2007 10:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ryan could bat leadoff?
Did Mo actually say that?
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On the salary
issue is there a time during the year when players can be released for 1/6 or there salary..And is this for one year or the life of that players contract??

by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 2:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

This is MLB
The players get their money.

I think the 1/6 number comes from yesterday's discussion about offering arbitration to Eck and then releasing him.

by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

haha
Yea, otherwise Mike Hampton would be at the soup kitchen right now.
I cannot stand being a fanatical for an egregiously average team. I am giving a two year grace period before we break up.

by stlknows on Dec 6, 2007 2:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Tejada
The repeated word on Tejada is they won't trade him without significant returns. In other words, no pure salary dump.

I think the question at this point is, What would the Cardinals even do with an extra $15 or $20 million? Doesn't seem like there is either the willingess to spend it or, if they were so inclined, the market among premier free agents.

Coulda spent it on Burnett two years ago.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 6, 2007 5:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel Cleared
sort of.  Press Release says insufficient evidence.

by chicagocardfan on Dec 6, 2007 5:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

program
Is it just me or doesn't it seem slight wrong that they named their program/committe "JOINT Drug Prevention and Treatment Program "

by cdb on Dec 6, 2007 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

awesome
so all the idiots who were shouting "H B H!!!  H B H!!!" (yes, they were saying "B") at the webb vs wainwright game in Az owe him an apology.

Why only 15 days for guillen and gibbons?

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 8:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's my understanding
That the suspension is not based on a test, but is based on some evidence that they purchased steroids.  This doesn't seem to fit with the policy and I don't know where I heard that, but it could be the reason.
Jimmy steps in to lead off the bottom half of the inning... with nobody on base... It could happen... just not tonight.

by Hollywood15 on Dec 6, 2007 8:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the violoation
took place during the old policy. so 15 games..and correct it was not a failed test
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 10:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My Interpretation is
that the 15 days (only) is based upon the penalty imposed at the time of the violations rather than current policy.

Also that for Ankiel and three others, there will be no penalties and the cases are officially closed.   This should be celebrated by Ank, and should also mean that he doesn't have more to fear from the Mitchell Report (at least we should hope).

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Dec 6, 2007 10:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he was cleared
of violating baseball policy.  Not cleared of taking HGH, correct?

by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

pujols is best fielder
bernie posted this in his forum:

http://tinyurl.com/2g5g95

just another advanced fielding metric that confirms that pujols got jobbed by d. lee for the gold glove.

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 10:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Per Will Caroll
Cardinals and As are the only two teams to show any interest in Barry Bonds.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

good
sign bonds for a year and trade Duncan for pitching.  LF is one of the easiest spots to fill via free agency.  They don't have anyone else to spend their 10-15M on and Bonds is the only true impact bat on the market.  I'd love for them to sign him from a baseball perspective.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen and Bonds
would we be able to clear enough space in the lockeroom so those two can sit by themselves and not be bothered.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently
Rolen needs a friend anyway!

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 10:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
he is the only signing that could really transform our lineup. i hate bonds but he would be the perfect cleanup hitter. ludwick or molina can hit clean up against tough lefthanders 35-40 games and i still think we're better.

by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yea, but
he is the most game altering bat on the market, but he is also under indictment.  seems a bad pr move and his availability for health reasons has to be added to whatever time might be lost because of his legal situation.  he is also largely immobile in the field, so i agree with those that see him having maximum impact as a dh somewhere.

as far as bats go, reyes and what is likely to get jason bay?

by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds is such a villian now,
that I'd like to see what the reaction would be if he came to St Louis [I'd be all for it -- he can still get on base at obscene rates and it would free up an outfield spot (re: Duncan) to trade for a pitcher]. Of course, said reaction would grow old and tiresome after about two hours, so I will most probably regret this wish. However, he would make a fine addition to our cast of nutjobs, divas, and assholes in 2008.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 10:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel would have to go
can't have that much HGH in one OF.  It's against the laws of science.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just wait
until Edmonds, Pujols and Rolen get named, too.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
My stance on HGH is I don't care!! I am not going to call out guys who got named when there is going to be an amazing list released soon, and some of your favorite players very well may be on that list.

I would not be surprised if Carp were on the list.  See I think any pitcher who was hurt from 1999-2005 has a great chance of being on that HGH list.  Hell Kerry Wood may be on it, he had some injury problems and probably was tempted to dig into HGH to heal up.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sign him up MO and
i'll be there opening day with a Cardinals Bonds jersey.

Albert loves him, Tony covets him. he can hit 2nd. do it MO.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 7, 2007 2:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Scouting other blogs
I just ventured over to a couple of the SBNation Blogs for the LA teams to see if they had any interest in Rolen.  The Dodgers blog was complete garbage with an average of 3 responses per post.  On the Angels site, I found this:
http://www.halosheaven.com/story/2007/12/6/204244/349
They actually talk about capitalizing on TLR vs Rolen to snatch him from us, offering a package of Adenhart, Santana, and Willits.  Funny stuff.  Now who from VEB wrote this?

by rrvwmr on Dec 6, 2007 11:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The New GM
The Angels need to hire that dude as their new GM!

by chicagocardfan on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two-for-one
From the excellent 6-4-2 blog that covers both LA teams.

The comments are hilarious:

"The only way this is a good move is if Pierre is going the other way."

"Does Pierre go the other way?"

by liam on Dec 7, 2007 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1000steps = Mo
Must have been a line item Hinkster missed from Mo's Diary.

And to the 12 veb posters that visited HalosHeaven just to place a vote for Rolen, kudos!

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Dec 7, 2007 12:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why did Cards draft no Rule V players for Memphis?
Why do you suppose the Cardinals chose not to draft any players onto the AAA team in the Rule V Draft, particularly pitchers, given the Cardinals' pressing need for more starting pitching and the fact that there are no ready backups in Memphis for the ML rotation? With the AAA team so weak last year, it would seem Mo and Luhnow missed a chance to upgrade the farm system at least a little.

18 pitchers were drafted after the 10th pick. Wouldn't any of these have been useful to the Cardinals?

Triple-A Phase Draftees, 2007:

  1. Levi Romero, RHP, by Oklahoma (TEX) from Houston (Oklahoma).
  2. Jose Fragoso, RHP, by Sacramento (OAK) from Detroit (Oneonta).
  3. Victor Garate, LHP, by Las Vegas (LAD) from Houston (Tri-City).
  4. Joe Bateman, RHP, by Nashville (MIL) from San Francisco (Connecticut).
  5. Juan Cedeno, LHP, by Toledo (DET) from Washington (Wichita).
  6. Garry Bakker, RHP, by New Orleans (NYM) from Chicago, AL (Winston-Salem).
  7. Gabe DeHoyos, RHP, by Portland (SD) from Kansas City (Wichita).
  8. Bo Hall, RHP, by Scranton/WB (NYY) from Milwaukee (Huntsville).
  9. Julio Puentes, RHP, by Durham (TB) from Houston (VSL Astros).
  10. Mauricio Mendez, RHP, by Indianapolis (PIT) from Boston (GCL Red Sox).
  11. Jose Rojas, RHP, by Sacramento (OAK) from Cincinnati (Sarasota).
  12. Richard Campbell, RHP, by Nashville (MIL) from Washington (Harrisburg).
  13. Benjamin Fritz, RHP, by Toledo (DET) from Oakland (Midland).
  14. Kurt Isenberg, LHP, by Portland (SD) from Toronto (New Hampshire).
  15. Jose Mejias, RHP, by Durham (TB) from New York, NL (VSL Mets).
  16. Corey Hamman, LHP, by Indianapolis (PIT) from Detroit (Toledo).
  17. Clayton Hamilton, RHP, by Oklahoma (TEX) from Pittsburgh (Lynchburg).
  18. Scott Mitchinson, RHP, by Sacramento (OAK) from Philadelphia

by CardsWin on Dec 7, 2007 2:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Scott Rolen
I have been a huge fan of his ever since Scott Rolen began playing for the Phillies during the mid 1990's. I really think that Scott Rolen is still one of the top 3rd basemen in all of baseball, injuries and all. A healthy Scott Rolen is better than most other players. I have collected many things about him. Last time I took a chance on his autographed photograph online, I decide to buy one. Here is the photo I found: http://dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=71818 , I will support him forever.

by enochyukt on Dec 7, 2007 7:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar_small
How to EASILY make tables for Fanposts
1753738656_110919ebe9_o_small
2010 Hot Stove Post #1: CHONE hitter projections

Recent FanPosts

Arch_small
Number 15
Small
Some thoughts on Holliday (and potential replacements)
Small
Ok let me try this again...
Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Kid-a-bear_small the red baron