daze of our lives
re the recent conflict over diaries: please see this thread for an update. more on this subject to come later.
now for the other, more consequential conflict taking place in cardinal-land. i guess it's official, if it wasn't already: the cards have become the yankees. they're as much about ego and personality now as about baseball; what the participants say about each other off the field generates at least as much interest as what they do on the field. i'm referring, of course, to la russa's blunt remarks about rolen, capsulized in this diary and in joe strauss's article this morning. to me, the content of la russa's remarks is far less interesting than the subtext: he now regards the war w/ rolen as a competition. and tony, as in all things, very badly wants to win.
i have no idea which guy is "right" here, nor do i much care; in a clash of personalities like this, the fault almost always lies on both sides. from a purely baseball standpoint, if i could only have one of these two guys in my organization, either rolen or la russa --- i'd take scotty.
having said that: i'd deal scotty in a heartbeat if the cards could get a decent return. so far they can't, and that seems to be largely because the owners won't pick up much of rolen's salary. this is one instance in which the worn-out and overused "cards are cheap!!" accusation actually sticks, imho. is it any wonder that teams won't part with premium talent to acquire a player with rolen's salary, health issues, and recent track record? no duh. but there has been more interest in scotty than i expected --- and if the cards were willing to pick up, say, half the tab, they might actually be able to get a deal done. the acquiring team would get him for, in essence, 3 yrs / $18m; that's a bargain in a marketplace where guys like gary mathews and aaron rowand can command upwards of $10m a season. suppose the cards were to offer rolen plus $18 mill to the giants, who have expressed interest in scott and possess a surplus of young arms (from which they reportedly are willing to deal). mozeliak asks for matt cain in return. from a payroll standpoint, the $18m the cards are sending out to san francisco becomes part of matt cain's "salary"; it doesn't go into his pocket, but it's part of the price the cards are paying for his services. that gets added to the money that actually does go into cain's pocket --- he's 1 year away from arb eligibility, so he stands to earn an aggregate of about $8m over the next three years --- and you wind up paying about $26m over three years for cain. in this marketplace, a pitcher of his ability is a stinkin' bargain at 3 yr / $26m.
of course, we don't know if the giants would go for that specific deal; maybe they'd counter by offering noah lowry and jonathan sanchez, or maybe they'd tell mo "sorry, not interested." but i think that's how the team should go about it. approach the dodgers and offer rolen + $18m for andy la roche or chad billingsley; approach the angels and offer the same for jered weaver, or for ervin santana plus a prospect. and once the trade is completed, if there's still a hole at 3d base the cards still have half of rolen's salary left over to pay his replacement (let's just say mike lamb for the purposes of discussion). the objective would be to convert the $36m on rolen's contract into a package of talent that looks something like matt cain and mike lamb --- a package of talent that's younger and at least as good but not a penny more expensive; a package of talent that's worth the money.
i've often defended the cards' unwillingness to spend, because i've often thought the expenditures under consideration were unwise ones; refusal to make a bad investment does not constitute cheapness, it constitutes intelligence. but in this case, spending some $$$$ might rid the cards of a problematic relationship and bring young talent in return --- a good investment. it's the owners' job to facilitate that possibility and give mozeliak a decent product to offer at market. so far, it appears they haven't opened the coffers far enough to empower him.
one of the teams that has expressed interest in rolen, the dodgers, signed andruw jones last night to a deal worth 2 years and $36m --- another reason i think rolen at 3 yrs / $18m would fetch lots of interest. in this market, the jones deal looks like a bargain; i'd a lot rather have him on that contract than torii hunter for 5 / $90m, or aaron rowand on whatever dumb deal he ends up getting. while i think the cards could have afforded andruw for 2 years at that price, i don't view him as the type of player mo should be looking at. if the cards were better positioned to contend in the short term, then sure --- great buy. i think the dodgers will be pleased with their acquisition. but he wouldn't have got the cardinals where they need to go. he's expensive, past 30, and coming off a bad season --- the type of player the cards already have enough of; the type of player that got the team into its current mess.
step back and think about this team for just one second. about 20 percent of its 2008 payroll is tied up in three players --- encarnacion ($6.5m), mulder ($6.5m), and carpenter ($10.5m) --- with almost no value. one can't play at all; one hasn't been any good since 2005 and is coming off back-to-back surgeries; and one will miss 2/3 of the season before attempting his comeback from back-to-back surgeries. another 20 percent of the payroll --- edmonds ($8m) and rolen ($12m) --- is tied up in old, injury-prone, badly diminished players. those 5 contracts are among the 7 richest ones on the team, and they're all liabilities --- big ones. so big that only a team with a peaking farm system could hope to overcome them. there is a line of argument which contends that the team can be fixed via the acquisition of still more pricey, injured and/or declining stars. i reject that notion.
mozeliak was quoted the other day like so: "I feel really torn in trying to address '08 to make some impact to make sure we're competitive within our division, where it might sacrifice something for '09 and '10." that quote gives me comfort. it tells me that mo has his priorities in order: 2008 is a lower priority than 2009 and beyond. that's a rational approach, and mo should stick to it. but his patience will be tested by the win-now demands of fans and (in some cases) the media. i think it would be constructive for the cards to drop the pretense that they are competing in 2008 . . . . ok, from a marketing standpoint maybe they can't afford to do that. but they could say: "we'll be as competitive as our veterans make us. we'll be competitive if edmonds can avoid injuries; if rolen's shoulder is healthy; if mulder is able to contribute; if carpenter can give us a lift at the end of the year. we're always on the lookout for opportunities to improve the team, but they have to be long-term solutions as opposed to quick fixes. when we have a clean shot at a long-term solution, we'll bag it; in the meantime we'll rely on the warriors who won us 2 pennants and a world title."
some people would scream bloody murder at that statement, but others would appreciate the candor. fans get upset when their intelligence is insulted --- when the team offers empty promises ("we're looking for upgrades, we intend to compete") that it knows it probably can't live up to. candor might hurt the cardinals' ticket sales in the short term, but it won't do any long-term damage. lack of candor, on the other hand, damages the franchise's credibility and makes people cynical. reading the comments here every day, and at all the other cardinal blogs and the p-d boards, it's clear that cynicism is spiking. no matter what happens --- antonetti doesn't come here, la russa returns, a trade does or doesn't happen, an injured player does or doesn't come back healthy, etc etc --- the organization immediately gets denounced for acting in bad faith. while i don't think most of those accusations are warranted, i totally understand why people go there. they go there because the franchise is so far from honest in its communication. the cardinals talk down to their customers; they won't tell us truths they think we don't want to hear, or truths they think we can't handle. instead they serve up harmless little lies --- except over time and in the aggregate, the lies do inflict harm; frustration mounts, resentment builds.
the relationship between rolen and la russa seems to have deteriorated due to bad communication (or total lack thereof); there's a danger that a similar dynamic could pollute the relationship between the fan base and team --- probably not to the point of divorce, but certainly to the point of trial separation. there are two sides to every relationship. fans have to have realistic expectations; the franchise has to cultivate them. it's not happening that way right now.
* * * * * * * * * * *
marketplace note: milton bradley's docs like what they see, according to ken rosenthal:Bradley is expected to be ready by either Opening Day or April 15, and figures to land a one-year contract after some of the more prominent outfielders are signed.
0 recs |
202 comments
Comments
Rolen vs. LaRussa
I do like that they just aren't giving away Rolen, but I, like you, would hope that if they could get good young talent in return, they'd think about paying some of the salary.
by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 9:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Simply down 2 two
I feel there are two major opposing forces adjusting the free agency pay-scale: the greater value placed on team-controlled youth by organizations and the spoils of revenue sharing. The free agents want thier cut, therefore teams are (finally!) starting to appreciate the value and upside of team-controlled youth appropriately.
Where this seems important to us is the timing of re-upping Albert should we (I hope!) keep him. I think the dust will settle on contract adjustments soon. Therefore, I feel the best time to approach Albert about extending his time in StL would probably be later 2009. Now, my hope is by late 2009 we are competitive, have a youngish team with upside that tends to re-inspire, keep focused veterans. I also hope we wisely spend our freed budget dollars. I don't want to enter that time with a whole year or so of deteriorating team chemistry due to Rolen/LaRussa. I also don't want to enter that time still payroll constricted and talent-challenged/non-competitive. I think this would have a huge influence on Albert's likeliness to remain here. And, probably a huge influence on how much he would accept to stay here.
I could live with taking 2 months of 2008 to raise Rolen's value or try to somehow resolve relationships or whatever. The Cardinals simply cannot let it go on longer.
And, speaking of Pujols, how does he feel about all this now? It seems I somehow got the impression he was baffled by Rolen's dislike of Tony and that Albert has great respect for Tony. Was that speculation? Did I read that somewhere? I cannot remember. Do Rolen and Albert have a strained relationship? I know which of those two I would pick!
by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dead on, LB.
OTOH, there is an old principle of PR and advertising--that if your customers don't understand what you're trying to get across to them, you aren't doing your job; rationalize all you want, but at the end of the day your image and reputation are your responsibility. So while I don't think the Cardinals' sins w.r.t. PR are as great as many seem to think, it is their job to fix it. A little honesty from the front office would go a long way.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wondering what happened
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 9:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lets do something? Anything!!
Well I'm a Card fan sitting up here in Michigan & yes its COLD! Unless your a tiger fan, especially with all the hot deals they are making. Dave Dombroski GM for the Tigers has been heralded a genius for all the trades he's getting done. I keep waiting for something to happen for the Cards & all I read is what to do & what not to do.
Lets do something! Mike Illitch owner of the Tigers & the Little Ceasars pizza empire is not shy to spend money this off season. Since Budweiser is a sponsor of the Cards should I invest my money in beer or continue to buy $5 large pizza's because come spring the Tigers ar loaded with toppings!
by CliffNotes on Dec 6, 2007 9:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What is Rolen Worth?
I liked him as a player, but one has to wonder if he has ANY hitting left in him. Will Carroll speculated that his shoulder very likely can't withstand regular play. Based on the last 1.5 seasons, it is quite possible he will never slug .450 again over a season. Jeff Bagwell went from being a top first baseman to worthless pretty quickly.
If Rolen bounces back next year, you could look bad trading him. However, if he slugs .480 for April, .425 for May, .350 for June, and in July announces his shoulder is bothering him and he needs to go on the DL, I think you'd be pretty happy if you had simply given him away to someone willing to take some of his salary.
I think the second scenario is likely enough that teams have to worry. He is a very risky player--he has the potential to have decent upside, but he also could be an expensive non-contributor for 3 years. If I was a GM who traded anything for Rolen and it didn't work out, I'd be worried about explaining how I didn't see it coming.
If the Cardinals want talent for Rolen and want to pick up none of his salary, they are going to have trouble moving him. They need to realize that it is quite possible they will pay Rolen $36 million over the next three years and still need someone to play 3B.
by tarakas on Dec 6, 2007 9:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The soap opera analogy
Stay tuned for tomorrow's episode, when we find out that Mozeliak's wife is cheating on him with Luhnow, and the SHOCKING RETURN OF WALT JOCKETTY!
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
lol
by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rolen's music is
by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, lb.
OTOH, Cub fans have been saying, "Wait till next year!" for a century now.
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 9:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
So far,
by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Polling the players
If his players are so thrilled to have him as manager their on-field performance over the last couple hundred regular season games is kind of an odd way to show it.
I know this really doesn't matter and I probably shouldn't waste everyone's time by bitching about TLR, but I am really disturbed by his latest statements. I think they are completely unprofessional and not in the best interests of the ballclub. Thoughts?
by giveml on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Performance
Eckstein playing with a bad back.
Edmonds playing with a bad foot.
Rolen playing with a bad shoulder.
Mulder playing with a detached rotator cuff.
Kennedy playing with a torn knee.
Aaron Miles and Scott Speizio doing everything but catch.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True--
by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re: "last couple hundred...
that's conveniently overlooking the little world series thing that happened...
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get this.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Tony has handled it well at all, and his statements in the article are simply shortsighted and poorly timed. I get the feeling that Tony is playing with management here; playing bad cop to try and spoil a deal and keep Scott around -- he does mindf**king things like that all the time with players, and I don't think that he and Mo are completely on the same page.
by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Was that the beginning?
by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tino Martinez was the Beggining
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if even remotely true
Tony never relied on a player more- and gotten less for it - than with (ugh) Tino.
And that I-used-to-be-a-Yankee BS was Tino's (seemingly) incredible response. If you can't succeed in St. Louis (great fans, who gave Tino every chance) then where could he?
by the Tewk on Dec 6, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is wrong with Mo
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dead on
by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I vote for choice D:
Outfielders are not a priority - especially aging fat ones like Jones or "contract year in a bandbox" guys like Rowand.
I actually hope Mo is blowing smoke up our arses regarding Rowand. And Jones would improve this team offensively, sure, but Mo still would have to trade Edmonds (he'd want something of value) and then flip Duncan/prospect for a #2 starter to make us contenders.
It's not in the Cards this year, boys.
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Threadjack
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with Billy Beane
by rocKStark5 on Dec 6, 2007 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andruw Jones contract structure
$15 M this year
$9 M in 2009
That makes me cry. We could have had Andruw Jones for $9 M next year payroll wise, allowing us STILL $30 M to spend on FA.
Come on Mo, be alittle more creative.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops
- $9 M
- $15 M
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No thanks
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andruw Jones for 2 years allows
- a RH power bat (allowing Rolen to be moved)
- a superior CF defender (allowing Edmonds/Ankiel to be moved)
- another above average MLB OF (allowing Duncan to be traded)
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
I get where you're going - but I don't think you can indict Mo on "lack of creativity" that you cite him for just because the market doesn't value the players we'd like the Cards to move.
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trades and FA signings
by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This
by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
AJ defense.
by Eckstreem on Dec 6, 2007 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Number
I can tell you back in April and he caught a ball in the LF gap about 10 feet from the warning track that made me say "WOW", Jimmy would have been 15 feet away from catching the ball. Andrew Jones is still very good so don't let people say he is not. If anything he may have been a step or step and a half slower only due to weight. He is still top notch. There is not a CF in baseball who gets jumps like that guy does. I suggest watching a game and watch how soon AJ makes moves, like when the guy is swinging.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Fielding Bible
by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I stand corrected.
by Eckstreem on Dec 7, 2007 4:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't understand
i just don't think this team needs to add any more centerfielders. they already have plenty of candidates there.
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
correction:
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andruw
The talk of Rowand is interesting and he would likely be a very popular player in St. Louis from the Eckstein, Oquendo, McEwing mold. Blue collar guy with better skills than those other guys. I don't think we should really be concerned with "blocking" Rasmus in center. He's still young and can play any outfield position well.
Money also needs to stop being an issue with this team. Didn't we make something like $40 million NET profit off the World Series, plus we've sold out the stadium for basically three years in a row. The Ballpark village is finally blowing up. Players like Izturis and heaven forbid, Glendon Rusch should not be acceptable for this team anymore.
by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
opening
oops
by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are assuming
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
rasmus
players such as mike cameron and aaron rowand (and even torii hunter) would not be as valuable in the corners because it would not utilize their defensive skills fully, and their bats would rate lower compared to other corner OFs than they do to other CFs. for example, cameron is an acceptable (if declining) hitter for a CF but would be basically unacceptable putting up a .750 OPS in LF. it bothers me to see people complaining about us not going after one of these overpriced CFs when that would really be a bad use of the team's resources.
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the corners,
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Blocking Rasmus
Has anyone else noticed how Andruw's deal resembles current NFL contracts? A lot of money up-front but he would be easy to unload after next year in which the Dodgers pay him 9 mil. I could easily see them trading him after next year and assuming half that 15 mil, Thus paying him 16 mil for one year because I would bet that signing bonus is a lifetime payment deal, albeit guaranteed money.
by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
move him to a corner
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ugh
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my 2 cents on the outfield
by steve on Dec 7, 2007 1:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if it was a secret ballot...
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:52 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're absolutely right about ownership
by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rolen v La Russa
- There's not much significance in "picking" Scotty or Tony, since Tony is now signed and you can't go back on that. But since LB put that teaser out there, I'll bite: Tony has taken us to 2 World Series and won one, with decent and then inferior talent. IMHO he offers superior ability to most replacement candidates, in a positon that matters. Scott has become what LB said in an earlier post: a terrific defensive 3B who will hit .275 and drive in 80. I've always loved his no-nonsense approach, I questioned his attitude about playing time while he was hurting, but from a purely economic perspective, he's just a far more replaceable asset than Tony.
- On a more practical level, I'm mystified as to how someone as smart as Tony can be so bad at managing THIS situation. A letter? To a guy you spend 10 hours a day, 200 days a year standing right next to? And now today's news: I don't see how going public with his latest pronouncement can do anything but hurt his organization. It further enrages Scotty, making it more likely he sulks, becomes a cancer in the clubhouse, etc. It signals irreparable rift to his suitors: how much less $ might we have had to pick up than the $18M LB mentions without these comments? Economic systems work on supply and demand Tony, and you live in a very small system and signaled you have a surplus of 3B. Let us know how that works out for you. It just smacks of pure ego to me.
As an aside, was anyone else curious why there's a stenotype machine next to Tony in this picture? Was he doing a press conference or being deposed??
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/photos/2/2b5fb5bb-962f-4dab-8a40-7293d0c0804f.html?SITE=MOSTP& ;SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
by Secret Weapon on Dec 6, 2007 9:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Post, LB...
by tbell61 on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
From a purely (cynical) business standpoint...
I agree that the Cardinals have committed several PR blunders over the past several seasons; La Russa should have kept his mouth shut regarding Rolen. But a bunch of those "blunders" concerned injuries to Cardinal players... it seems as if the "rosy" scenarios never worked out; whoever was injured always wound up with the "worst-case" outcome! (Rolen, Mulder, Edmonds, and on and on...) Sometimes the best answer a ballclub can give the public is "I don't know... we hope (player) will be back in (time period), but we'll have to wait and see how he progresses."
The Cardinals don't have to beat the Red Sox/Yankees/Tigers/Angels (or even the Mets) in the regular season; they only have to beat out the other NL Central teams to make the playoffs, where (as in 2006) anything can happen.
If Rolen really wants out of St. Louis, the best way for him to get his wish is to come to ST and mash the ball; a hot start would make him more attractive to those teams looking for a third-sacker.
I agree that being more forthright with the fans about the club's chances would be viewed favorably by most of the fanbase; the folks that spew on the STLToday forums or those who comment even here aren't necessarily those who buy tickets!
by The Ol Goaler on Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
couldn't agree more
On a more cynical note though, we'll watch them as much as we can due to the regional blackout &!#)(!. I live in Alaska and the only games I get to see are Yanks/Sox and whoever the Mariners are losing to. Selig needs to pull his head out of somewhere and do away with the regional blackouts.
by steve on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Negotiating
by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
ug..
by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That made me
by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, in the world of MLB
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Coffee through the sinuses
Caffeine, straight to the brain.
by arch support on Dec 6, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bravo, LB!
I really thought Moz's hands were tied coming into this offseason, so I did not expect much in terms of roster repair. But I think DeWitt & Moz do need to work on their public relations, because I see some symptoms of foot-in-mouth disease. Signing Izturis so early was questionable, but calling him a "safety net" is laughable. And while I think "doing whatever it takes" can be liberally interpreted as not doing anything stupid in 2008 to jeopardize 2009 and beyond, I doubt Joe Cardinal Fan takes the same view.
by Hungry Jack on Dec 6, 2007 10:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rolen's Response
...Rolen issued a cool statement through his agents, Sam and Seth Levinson.
"These are matters that I never discussed publicly and are matters that should have remained private," Rolen said. "I will not dignify Tony's comments with any response at this time."...
Full article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3143441
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 10:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
With any response?
Cause, not responding is what caused LaRussa to go off on you in the first place.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rule 5: Cards grabbed Brian Barton
Seems like an upgrade over Taguchi for sure. Here's some BA info:
Early Rule 5 Draft preview
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Barton's minor League #s
by bdief on Dec 6, 2007 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and here's a Q+A w/ barton
i think the cards caught a break; barton wasn't supposed to be available when they picked. this could be part of the solution to the leadoff problem; barton has a career OBP of .416 in the minor leagues.
by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
more on barton
by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His
by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's has above average speed
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can see that speed
Even if his OBP drops sixty points he's still the best leadoff-type we've got,a potential lefty masher (or perhaps, with his power, lefty poker), and a great pinch runner. With Ludwick and Speez around to provide power hitting backups for the corner outfield sports, he could make a perfect 5th outfielder. Solid pickup.
But poor Skip just can't seem to get a break. I wonder if he could packaged somewhere, though I know his value isnt' high.
by joshuadivine on Dec 6, 2007 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
intuitively
Of course .472 BABIP is ridiculous and an 8% LD rate at AAA is also ridiculous. Almost looks like an error, because I've never seen an LD rate that low...
by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, rightie batter
by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we still had space on the 40 man
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barring trades/Bradley
It seems to have ramifications on when we are likely to see Rasmus, also.
by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How are people going to avoid confusing him
Apparently, Brian Barton is the one who travels with a pet turtle
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=680#more-680
by tdawg on Dec 6, 2007 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
don't worry
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nickname?
by eglasier on Dec 6, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about a nickname
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about Turtleton?
by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tutleton is not bad
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you can find out
by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Teenage Mutant Ninja Barton?
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But will he stay?
His lower-level walk rates look fantastic. Maybe some time at AAA will help it recover.
by 26thMan on Dec 6, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not like we're favored to win the division
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Roster
by realbrit70 on Dec 6, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right.
The best case scenario is that we've found this seasons' everyday third outfielder and leadoff hitter.
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
should he stay
by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barton could lead off and be RH OF w some power
The knee problem that has plagued Barton is evidently fixed now (though I question the statement by stat analyst Luhnow that "our sense is" that Barton will be ready for spring training. You mean Luhnow goes on "intuition" as well as hard data?! Wow.
Excerpt from MiLB.com:
"We didn't think he would be available," St. Louis vice president for amateur scouting and player procurement Jeff Luhnow said. "There was a lot of competition for that spot, but this is who we had in mind. The reports and analysis we had on him were great."
Barton has a .316 career average in three Minor League seasons and is coming off a year in which he hit .305 with 10 homers and 66 RBIs while splitting time between Double-A Akron and Triple-A Buffalo. He stole 21 bases this year and 41 in 2006, but recently had surgery to repair a microfracture in his knee.
He went to his own doctor to have the surgery done rather than have the team doctors address the problem, but it's unclear whether that played a role in the Tribe leaving him unprotected. Luhnow didn't seem concerned about the surgery.
"We saw him a couple of days ago in Florida," he said. "We know he has a knee brace on now, but our sense is that he will be ready for Spring Training."
by CardsWin on Dec 6, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he goes on the DL,
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not officially
However they cannot stay on the DL for long. They also referenced how the player has to be on the active roster for at least 90 days during the regular season.
by enoscountry on Dec 6, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's the 40-man that matters
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
correcting myself
by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm thrilled with the pick
HR by Luhnow and Mo here.
by erik on Dec 6, 2007 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you or does anyone
by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
other teams weren't looking for
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a big fan
Also happy to see that Callix Crabbe was picked by San Diego. He's a switch-hitting 2B with a good batting eye and some base-stealing ability that I thought the Cards should have taken a chance on last year when we were looking for a second baseman.
by liam on Dec 6, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good move
I only hope the clubhouse isn't so poisoned by the Rolen/LaRussa tiff that it damages morale for young, impressionable guys like Barton
by 10worldchamps on Dec 6, 2007 11:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mending TLR-Rolen feud would take rocket scientist
by CardsWin on Dec 6, 2007 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What's happening with The Ballpark Village?
by SethWestern on Dec 6, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lake DeWitt?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
by Ray Lankford on Dec 6, 2007 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Centene
by bdief on Dec 6, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By picking up part of Rolen's salary...
by mikedallas23 on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rolen and Toney
by lerwin1 on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Crazy Theory
What if this public airing by Tony was planned by ownership/management? Do we really think this group didn't know what Tony was going to say? This is a multi-million dollar organization. You usually don't just make statements to the public all willy-nilly and piss off your bosses.
They couldn't get want they wanted in a trade. So is it possible they are trying to get him to really quit? To opt out of his contract so as not to play for Tony? I know it would probably be a first and ain't gonna happen, but what are Scotty's options now?
- Shut up and a play his butt off to bring up his value.
- Pout, play like a lazy SOB, start riding the pine and waste a roster spot.
- Quit.
I think the organization played their hand yesterday and its now about who gives up first. From what we've seen, Tony doesn't give up.
by badseed on Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
maybe capuano and
by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 12:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rolen quiting
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 12:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree BUT
I'm thinking Rolen isn't my favorite Cards player anymore.
by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're probably right
I can imagine how difficult it would be for a guy like Rolen to get along with those types.
by 26thMan on Dec 6, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A-type
by cdb on Dec 6, 2007 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
by 26thMan on Dec 6, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with 26th man on this
He was a three sport 'stud' in high school {50 miles from me in Indiana) and it's very possible that THIS is his first real experience with failure. Tony (tho it's tempting to put him in as part of the mix) is a red herring.
The challenge for Scotty is dealing with a bad shoulder and his mis-applied pride.
** p.s. to another item above... I don't see ANY similarity between LaRussa and Bowa
by the Tewk on Dec 6, 2007 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Confusion no more
Brian BarDen plays thirD base and Doesn't have a pet turtle.
I hope this solves any future barton/barden confusion. :)
by SethWestern on Dec 6, 2007 12:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also, don't want to play the race card but
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
crap
I imagine one of the two won't be around at the end of spring training anyway.
by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Post LB
I love the Andruw Jones deal, but it wouldn't be a deal for the Cards. Giving Rolen away and paying all of his salary and getting more prospects would be a better way to spend money for this team.
by rrvwmr on Dec 6, 2007 12:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I guess that WOULD make it a little easier...
by SethWestern on Dec 6, 2007 12:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Juan E.
by WizardofOz on Dec 6, 2007 1:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
From Matt Leach MLB.com
"Last I heard there were still some issues," La Russa said.
"He's struggling. We've got our fingers crossed for him."
by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OT- ESPN says
The one thing I wonder is whether this means the front office is serious about getting a right-handed OF bat. This move leaves just Ludwick.
by wyld stallyns on Dec 6, 2007 1:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Brian Barton
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barton
Assuming that happens you would have Ludwick and Barton as RH outfield bats. Although I wouldn't count out a trade.
by realbrit70 on Dec 6, 2007 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that solves all of our problems.
by wyld stallyns on Dec 6, 2007 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tejada to Stros unlikely
1:44 p.m., from Jayson Stark
* The Orioles' Andy MacPhail left Nashville late Thursday morning. So that makes it official -- the Orioles won't be making any deals here. Their talks with the Cubs about a trade for Brian Roberts have been back-burnered while the Orioles prioritize talks about Bedard and Miguel Tejada. But what we found on that back burner is that there is mutual interest in a deal that would send Roberts to the Cubs for pitcher Sean Gallagher, plus a second player that still needs to be determined. Despite speculation Felix Pie could wind up in that trade, teams that have talked to the Cubs about Pie say he would only be movable in a much bigger deal.
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More from Rotoworld
It sounds as though Roberts to the Cubs is still a possibility, but we're guessing that the radio station reporting the Tejada-to-Houston rumor received some bad info. If the deal was that close to getting done, MacPhail would likely still be in Nashville."
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
other birds
by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a bit light
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
tejada k
Miguel Tejada ss
6 years/$72M (2004-09)
signed as a free agent 12/03
$12M signing bonus ($4M paid in 04, $2M in 05, 06, 10, 11)
04:$3M, 05:$9M, 06:$10M, 07:$12M, 08:$13M, 09:$13M
$50,000 All Star bonus
4 years/$11.3M (2000-03)
agent: SFX (Pat Rooney, Diego Bentz, Fern Cuza)
ML service: 9.033
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/baltimore-orioles_112321768568552760.html
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've mentioned this before
by Jhusk on Dec 6, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we're talking about the wrong Oriole here.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rule 5 AAA
by giveml on Dec 6, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Anyone you take
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cards execs on the radio tomorrow
http://www.team1380.net/
by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 2:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to be a pleasant commenter
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If I was GM
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get
If some team was willing to give the world for Rasmus I think it would be hard to pass up on.
No one is untouchable.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
by StLHugo on Dec 6, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be hard to get equal value
I also am expecting a Springfield Cardinals' Colby Rasmus T-shirt jersey for christmas.
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marlins
It is funny everyone around here was talking about how Wills is going to get hurt, the Tigers got jobbed and what not...
It sounds as if a lot of the "experts" who have watched Miller throw say he has quite possibly some of the worst throwing across his body mechanics they have seen. I heard Steve Stone predict he will have a major arm problem in 1.5 years at most. I remember that Stone said the same thing about Wood before he blew out his arm. Maybe Detroit did a good job at dumping Miller.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting note
But I don't remember him saying that a couple of years ago.
The closer you listen, the more you hear guys jump on "mechanics problems" AFTER a pitcher has serious injuries.
by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
t-shirt
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm irrationally excited about it
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know this is a day old.
by Eckstreem on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love Rasmus, but...
Also, as much as I (all of us here at VEB) THINK he is going to be a stud in a few years, there really aren't any guarantees. I am by no means advocating we trade him or get feelers out for him, but if we can get someone lights out, I say he's fair game. IMHO, I just don't think we can bank on him being a perennial all-star, and for the right player in return, I'd be willing to give him up. Great players come out of nowhere just as often as can't miss prospects pan out.
Just a thought.
by joecardsfan on Dec 7, 2007 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mozeliak interview
The url, once again is:
http://www.team1380.net/
by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you imagine a circumstance
by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he finishes the first half of the season
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can I imagine a trade that involves moving
They both have about the same likelihood of happening.
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
would i trade colby?
i also would trade a prospect bat b4 prospect picthing..quality pitchers are harder to come by..if you grow your own you dont have to over spend for garbage...
by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re:
This meme gets really old. Prospects as good as Rasmus pan out far more often than they flameout. Especially prospects who aren't one dimensional and play good defense. He's going to be a major leaguer and potentially a perenial all-star.
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i guess my point debated itself
I would NOT trade him for Tejada and bedard as mentioned above..just me..Now for Santana maybe..but cards dont have the prospects for that..I guess i didnt follow through in the comment..
by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Something like
by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no thanks
I still like Reyes and while I'd like the whole Rolen/TLR thing to end, I don't see it as any headway trading Reyes and Rolen for LaRoche.
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hypothetical
by cyko42 on Dec 6, 2007 9:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was my point
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No...
Good hitting CFers like Rasmus (and who will be cheap for years) are much, much harder to find than a good hitting 1b who has a reasonable contract for what, 3 years left?.
I mean, look at Hunter/Jones - they got $18 million a year contracts. Not so much of their hitting (though Jones is a great hitter in a good year) but also because of where they play - CF.
by DiscoJer on Dec 6, 2007 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan could bat leadoff?
by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
On the salary
by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 2:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This is MLB
I think the 1/6 number comes from yesterday's discussion about offering arbitration to Eck and then releasing him.
by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha
by stlknows on Dec 6, 2007 2:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tejada
I think the question at this point is, What would the Cardinals even do with an extra $15 or $20 million? Doesn't seem like there is either the willingess to spend it or, if they were so inclined, the market among premier free agents.
Coulda spent it on Burnett two years ago.
by Red in Chicago on Dec 6, 2007 5:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel Cleared
by chicagocardfan on Dec 6, 2007 5:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
awesome
Why only 15 days for guillen and gibbons?
by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 8:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's my understanding
by Hollywood15 on Dec 6, 2007 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the violoation
by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My Interpretation is
Also that for Ankiel and three others, there will be no penalties and the cases are officially closed. This should be celebrated by Ank, and should also mean that he doesn't have more to fear from the Mitchell Report (at least we should hope).
by Birds on the Bat on Dec 6, 2007 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he was cleared
by sdrone on Dec 6, 2007 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pujols is best fielder
just another advanced fielding metric that confirms that pujols got jobbed by d. lee for the gold glove.
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 10:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Per Will Caroll
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
good
by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rolen and Bonds
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently
by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
by indakind on Dec 6, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea, but
as far as bats go, reyes and what is likely to get jason bay?
by sportsman on Dec 6, 2007 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds is such a villian now,
by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel would have to go
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just wait
by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I would not be surprised if Carp were on the list. See I think any pitcher who was hurt from 1999-2005 has a great chance of being on that HGH list. Hell Kerry Wood may be on it, he had some injury problems and probably was tempted to dig into HGH to heal up.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sign him up MO and
Albert loves him, Tony covets him. he can hit 2nd. do it MO.
by gdm426 on Dec 7, 2007 2:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Scouting other blogs
http://www.halosheaven.com/story/2007/12/6/204244/349
They actually talk about capitalizing on TLR vs Rolen to snatch him from us, offering a package of Adenhart, Santana, and Willits. Funny stuff. Now who from VEB wrote this?
by rrvwmr on Dec 6, 2007 11:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The New GM
by chicagocardfan on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Two-for-one
The comments are hilarious:
"The only way this is a good move is if Pierre is going the other way.""Does Pierre go the other way?"
by liam on Dec 7, 2007 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1000steps = Mo
And to the 12 veb posters that visited HalosHeaven just to place a vote for Rolen, kudos!
by Birds on the Bat on Dec 7, 2007 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why did Cards draft no Rule V players for Memphis?
18 pitchers were drafted after the 10th pick. Wouldn't any of these have been useful to the Cardinals?
Triple-A Phase Draftees, 2007:
- Levi Romero, RHP, by Oklahoma (TEX) from Houston (Oklahoma).
- Jose Fragoso, RHP, by Sacramento (OAK) from Detroit (Oneonta).
- Victor Garate, LHP, by Las Vegas (LAD) from Houston (Tri-City).
- Joe Bateman, RHP, by Nashville (MIL) from San Francisco (Connecticut).
- Juan Cedeno, LHP, by Toledo (DET) from Washington (Wichita).
- Garry Bakker, RHP, by New Orleans (NYM) from Chicago, AL (Winston-Salem).
- Gabe DeHoyos, RHP, by Portland (SD) from Kansas City (Wichita).
- Bo Hall, RHP, by Scranton/WB (NYY) from Milwaukee (Huntsville).
- Julio Puentes, RHP, by Durham (TB) from Houston (VSL Astros).
- Mauricio Mendez, RHP, by Indianapolis (PIT) from Boston (GCL Red Sox).
- Jose Rojas, RHP, by Sacramento (OAK) from Cincinnati (Sarasota).
- Richard Campbell, RHP, by Nashville (MIL) from Washington (Harrisburg).
- Benjamin Fritz, RHP, by Toledo (DET) from Oakland (Midland).
- Kurt Isenberg, LHP, by Portland (SD) from Toronto (New Hampshire).
- Jose Mejias, RHP, by Durham (TB) from New York, NL (VSL Mets).
- Corey Hamman, LHP, by Indianapolis (PIT) from Detroit (Toledo).
- Clayton Hamilton, RHP, by Oklahoma (TEX) from Pittsburgh (Lynchburg).
- Scott Mitchinson, RHP, by Sacramento (OAK) from Philadelphia
by CardsWin on Dec 7, 2007 2:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Scott Rolen
by enochyukt on Dec 7, 2007 7:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs



















