December 6 Hot Stove Diary

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 9:16 AM EST Comment 81 comments

Update [2007-12-6 9:27:28 by lboros]: joecardsfan, i apologize for hijacking your diary, but it gibes perfectly with an idea i had intended to roll out today --- a daily hot-stove / rumor diary. erik manning proposed a version of this idea yesterday, and i think it's a good one --- it will prevent the proliferation of redundant diaries, as well as the impulsive tossoffs that aren't really worthy of a separate thread. so please put all news, links, opinions, etc etc related to the winter meetings and the off-season marketplace in this thread, or in today's main thread. if you've got non-hot-stove subjects you want to discuss, the diaries are open for those.

let's try this for a few days and see if it improves the discussion and promotes harmony.

[end update]

First off, let me say I apologize if I am starting a diary that is already covered by other VEBers. But it seems to me that most of the diaries have been on trade rumors and the feud from "The Hills"...er, LaRussa and Rolen. So I was hoping to start a catch-all Free Agency discussion diary. That being said, although it is not my favorite source, mlbtraderumors.com, had some good discussion pieces taken from STLtoday, but in a consolidated form. Here is the link, and then my initial thought:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/cardinals-turn.html

I am really glad that we will (HOPEFULLY!!) not pursue Lohse and Silva. Quite honestly they are only getting this much interest for two reasons: the rising inflated cost of starting pitching, and a weak FA class. Let's hope neither of these two clowns gets signed, especially for 10 mil+ for 4 or more years.

I wouldn't mind signing Colon, but for an incentive laden one year deal. His injury concerns are too risky to sign him long term.

Livan would be OK if the price is right. He's reliable, eats innings, and you know what you are getting. I wouldn't even necessarily be opposed to a 2 yr contract, if the price is right.

Josh Fogg would be a decent option, again if the price is right. I believe that he would be a cheapest of the lot.

I really hope they are not interested in Benson. Too many injuries, too much baggage.

I like Rowand, but not for the years or the money. I hope they pass.

Have at it VEB!!!

0 recs | Comment 81 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

and our first piece of news

taguchi released

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071205&content_id=2319238&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

another correct, albeit low-impact, decision by mozeliak.

by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 9:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I really like

this idea of a catch-all daily hot stove diary. Makes sense. No need to apologize for hijacking, this works out great. Thanks!

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have zero problems

with the moves that Mo HAS made. And I wasn't too sure what to think about trading Rolen. But Larry definitely puts it into context.

Did Mo really want to get rid of all of Scotty's remaining salary, minus the signing bonus % only? After LB crunched the numbers, it sure seems a little ridiculous to expect anything in return, player-wise.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good move.

But too bad. I liked the Gooch.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 6, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bedard & Tejada

I have also been seeing a lot of talk about the Cards pursuing Bedard, and even revisiting talks with the O's about Tejada. I would LOVE to get Bedard, and if we can somehow move Scottie (goooo Dodgers!!), Tejada would like nice at 3B (better at the plate, but nice at 3B). While I am not sure what it would take to make this happen, I am not sure we have the ammo. The O's are in shambles, they are probably looking for any good pieces they can acquire, regardless of position. If anyone has any insight on this, I'd appreciate it. I am just giddy thinking about one or both of them in Cardinals red!!

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 9:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

If

the Cards do manage to move Rolen, then Tejada wouldn't be too bad of a pickup. If the Birds could move Scotty to LA for a guy like LaRoche and Elbert, you could bring in Tejada to play short and third, while allowing LaRoche the time to properly acclimate himself to the majors, without being in a strictly sink or swim situation. The O's are really wanting to get Tejada off the books; they need to rebuild from nearly the ground up, and would probably be willing to let Miguel go for pretty middling talent just to help reset things.

On the other hand, I don't think the Cardinals have anywhere near what it would take to get Bedard. Baltimore is going to ask for the moon for him, and rightly so. The guy is going to be competing for Cy Young awards for quite a while. If they didn't have so many holes to fill, Bedard would really be an ideal piece to build around. Unfortunately, the Orioles need too large a quantity of players right now to not consider moving Bedard. Again though, what some of the other teams could offer, compared to the Cards? Unless the Cardinals suddenly decided that they really do want to move Colby Rasmus, as well as Jaime Garcia and Anderson, they just don't have enough.

Just my two cents, for whatever that's worth.

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In agreement

I just don't think we have enough for Bedard, but gosh I wish we did. He's gonna be lights out for years. Damn....

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I think Tejada would be a good replacement for Rolen. Either way the Cards are going to be paying a lot of money for a declining 3bman. I think Tejada is more likely to put up solid numbers (not worth his contract, but still good enough to be the team's second best hitter) next year than Scotty. Plus, the O's seem to be in a place where a salary dump makes sense.

As for Bedard, I agree that there isn't much hope for getting him. The O's seem to be puting his name out there as an alternative to Johan, but are asking for the same moon. Its a wise move for a team that is likely several players away from being good. If they land a decent everyday-type player and a few prospects it could send them in the right direction.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Obviously I would love it

if we were to somehow get bedard without giving up Rasmus, but I hadn't heard any rumors about us even being in talks for him. Where did you hear this? I'd kill to read the report firsthand

by jnangle472 on Dec 6, 2007 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Here ya go

http://wintermeetings.mlblogs.com/nashvilleconfidential/2007/12/waiting_for_the.html

I wouldn't necessarily say we are in hot pursuit, but we are definitely sniffing around.

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Also Strauss mentioned it on the radio yesterday..

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What about...

Reyes, Bryan Anderson, Ottavino, and Mitch Boggs for Bedard? I'm just kinda spit-balling here, but we keep Rasmus, Garcia, and Perez. I'm all for trading Bryan Anderson, because he's the kind of prospect we could really get something for, and I want Yadi to be the Redbirds catcher until he retires.

Ottavino's the fifth-best prospect in the system, and there have been signs that he's going to struggle, Anthony-Reyes-like, with the two-seam approach.

Bottom line, in my opinion, Bedard's young enough that I don't mind giving away these prospects for him. As long as Mo & co. would commit the necessary dollars to re-sign him, that would make El Birdos set up very nicely for '09.

by Jhusk on Dec 6, 2007 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

An idea to get Bedard AND Tejada

Rolen and half his salary
Anthony Reyes
Jamie Garcia
B. Anderson
Tyler Johnson

Why wouldn't that work for them?

by RonGant on Dec 6, 2007 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

rule 5

draft today think they will pick up anyone also the rox have deals in place to trade barmes and carroll if they sign the phils 2nd baseman.They mention st louis as a place for one of them why in the hell did they sign inturis if they were going to trade for barmes a platoon of barmes and ryan would get bye this year if those pitchers are what we have to choose from lets just use what we have if 08 is waiting for 09 use wainwright pinero looper mulder wellemer thompson and reyes if hes here in some order and save the money...

by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 9:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

cm1000

that was difficult to read if you want people to understand your thoughts and hear what you have to say i suggest using punctuation as one who writes in all lowercase letters i do understand and appreciate unconventional uses of language however i try at all times to be conventional enough that people can understand me i think you are not achieving that standard just my 2 cents

by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

mmmmmm

thats good satire

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 9:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeesh

that made my head hurt.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Remember these?

When the micro machine man posts, it's a special occasion.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Periods?

I hate the grammar police as much as anyone, but like Larry said this was pretty tough to read.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I know this won't be a popular one

but I am absolutely disgusted that we weren't involved in bringing Andruw Jones here on the 2 year deal he got. Instead, we'd rather spend time talking about 'scrappy' Aaron Rowand and a 5 year deal.

Ugh.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

No joke

a 2 year deal would have been a great option to bring Andruw into the fold. He could bounce back in a big way, and allows us to spin Duncan into a young pitcher. Possibly. Rasmus could have come up at the end of this year or the start of the next and played in right at first, then moved to center when Andruw was done, hopefully after two productive years as a Cardinal.

Does anyone know if we made an offer?

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 6, 2007 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

disagree

no-trade clause
huge signing bonus
18 million annually
no incentive-laden clauses...

I would agree with you ...
if the cards could have signed him for less (maybe 12-15 mill gauranteed), with incentives that led up to 18 million. and without the no-trade clause.

I'd rather my sister become a prostitute than my brother become a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 6, 2007 10:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It would be hard to justify...

giving a guy 18M a year who hit .220 last year.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 6, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

that would be a perfect contract...

... if this were the '08 off-season, and we had a reasonable shot at contending. but we likely don't, so we'd just be spinning our wheels. i'd rather experiment this year with some different pieces and save some cash for a bigger splurge in '09.

by kindred on Dec 6, 2007 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Say a player is s crappy is like saying

a girl has a great personality.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 10:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

ok will slow down

if all we can do is sign fogg or a injured pitcher why not just use what we have.?.Also it looks like Rolen and his agent have made a comment it is posted at bernies press box.3rd are the cards counting on mulder ?? thanks

by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Lincecum

There's an article over at the MLB site that details the Giants' quandary over whether or not it would be worth it to move Tim Lincecum for Alex Rios. If they're seriously considering moving Lincecum, then I think the Cards could put together a nice package for him.

The Giants just lost their left fielder, and so need someone to man it. They also need a bat with some power in it. Enter Chris Duncan. Now, I know that Duncan doesn't have the kind of value that an Alex Rios does. However, he's further away from being expensive, so I think he does bring something to the table. Duncan alone won't get it done though, so we add another position player, which is the real weakness of the Giants' system right now. How about a Mark Hamilton? He has a ton of power from the left side, (lots of splashes) and I don't know that the GMen look at Lance Niekro as really being a long term solution there. I could be wrong on that point, though.

The Cardinals could also offer a Jon Jay, or a Jose Martinez, or even Joe Mather. If the Giants want a pitcher to help offset the loss of Lincecum, what about Mitchell Boggs? I think Boggs could be productive, but Lincecum is on another planet entirely. So, would Duncan and Boggs be enough to get it done? I personally think that those two together are worth more than Alex Rios.

Or, if the Giants are really looking to build a positional core, what if the Cards offered Molina? I know I'll get blasted for this one, but they offer Molina, try to finagle a lower level prospect to go along with Lincecum, then bring up Bryan Anderson to play in the majors, rather than developing him further in the system. He could play half the time, LaRue could take the other half, just so that Bryan could get acclimated a little more gradually. I'm not sure if I like this idea myself; I worry that Anderson would be overmatched and end up flopping due to being rushed, but I do like it better than contemplating the inclusion of Anderson in such a deal.

Other players to consider in this type of scenario:

Luis De La Cruz
Allen Craig
P.J. Walters
Tyler Greene (?)
Kenny Maiques
Jason Motte

I'm not sure if I would be happy about parting with any of those guys, but for a player of Lincecum's calibre, I would do it. Thoughts?

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

You leave PJ Walters

aka "Cy Young" alone!

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

posted by jnangle

in a separate diary thread --- which was deleted . . . .

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071205&content_id=2319347&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

If you'd like to avoid reading that article, I'll summarize it for you. Basically all is says is that the Cardinals #1 priority this offseason is starting pitching (shocker).

Anybody who has been following the offseason has noticed that the Giants are very willing to trade rookie stud pitcher Tim Lincecum - a huge piece that any team would love having. The Giants are said to be mulling over an offer from the Blue Jays that would send Alex Rios to San Fransisco in a swap:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/alex_rios/index.html

I know I sound like a broken record, because in virtually every post I write I argue for trading Chris Duncan, but I thought I would make my case AGAIN, one last time, just for the heck of it.

Duncan is younger than Rios, and while he has not yet emerged as having the same tools in the field as Rios, Duncan has at least equal power and also could slide in at 1st base, a position that the Giants don't have an entrenched guy at. Additionally I would be willing to throw in a guy like Mark Hamilton, PJ Walters or Bryan Anderson - a solid prospect of their choice, but with the understanding that Rasmus, Perez, Garcia, Kozma and maybe Ottavino cannot be the prospect to go along with Duncan.

People have argued with me that Duncan's offense means too much to us, but I firmly believe that he is our best trade chip because his production is easily the most replacable because we have several decent outfield bats who could fill the hole for us. While I wouldn't want Ludwick to be starting for us, he is at least a solid outfielder with good power. Plus I believe having Lincecum and pairing him with Wainwright would give us our 1-2 punch for years to come (I personally believe that Carpenter won't be able to bounce back to his old self, but thats a discussion for another diary I guess).

I wouldn't believe that the Giants would ever go for this, but I also wouldn't believe they would ever consider trading Lincecum for Rios in the first place either. This seems a golden opportunity for us, and one that we should take full advantage of.

I'd love some feedback from you guys. I know the organization is hesitant to trade Duncan, but wouldn't this deal just be too good to pass on? Am I over valuing Lincecum? Do you guys think that we should trade Duncan for a young SP like I do, or am I wrong in that? Do I sound like an idiot? Love to hear your thoughts, let me know.

by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Check out these numbers

2007 stats
GP HR SLG. OPS+
Rios 161 24 .498 122
Duncan 127 21 .480 115

If Rios can net Lincecum, why can't Duncan and a prospect?? I understand that Rios is a better fielder, but as lboros stated, Duncan could also end up playing 1B for a team like the Giants. While, I too, like Duncan, he is our best trade chip. He is cheap, under team control, young, but most importantly in our case, more replaceable than a dominant Cy Young-caliber pitcher.

I'm on board lboros.

Sidenote: What's Rios' contract situation??

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

or jnangle...

by joecardsfan on Dec 6, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Preach it brother

I really think the Cards could also get good value from the Angels for Dunc. The Hunter deal mucks it up a bit, but the Angels could really use a thumper and haven't been able to get much production out of 1b/dh. Originally I advocated Duncan for Aybar (plus some other prospects), but now I wouldn't mind trying to get Joe Saunders or Ervin Santana plus a prospect. I like Santana quite a bit. He seems to have good stuff and gets into trouble when he has a control problems. Saunders doesn't seem to have as good of stuff, but has had good success at the MLB level.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 6, 2007 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Little Duncan

I'm with you 100% on trading lil Dunc if the return is a good pitcher.

Pitching needs always trump hitting needs especially if the hitter in question cannot field and has liked peaked in terms of hitting.

Dunc's value seems higher to us because the water around him (Edmonds & Rolen) have sunk so low.

I don't think even the Giants are dumb enough to make that trade but I would be shopping the hell out of Dunc if I were Mo.....especially to American League teams needing LH DH

by Hinkster on Dec 6, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lincecum

is an absolute beast. At least he was in the minors - he had a great stretch last season as well.

I would move Duncan if it were for Lincecum. I don't see the Giants trading him - though I know that's what the reports are saying. Maybe they don't like his small size...he has been compared fairly often to Roy Oswalt.

by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

DUNK for Lincecum?

i'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 7, 2007 2:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree...

You got to see what he can do in the big leagues. If he can even be a fraction as good as future hall of famer Greg Maddux in the control and durability department he could be very valuable to this organization. I just would like to see his screwball.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

list of pitchers

that cardinals can't get, can't afford with deep pocket teams around like LA (both teams) NY (both teams)and Boston; plus other teams more attractive prospects.

lincecum
Bedard
Santana
Burnett

Save space..dream lower.

by ridgesee on Dec 6, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lincecum

TLinc is one of my favorite young arms out there. The kid'd mechanics are one of a kind, and he is arguably the most athletic pitcher in baseball. I think he's got an almost limitless upside, and if the Giants would take Duncan and a prospect for him I would do that in a heartbeat. I'm actually against trading Duncan in most cases, but this is a little different. Lincecum/Waino/Carp (maybe, fingers crossed) looks pretty damn scary to me.

The thing I find surprising is that the Giants are shopping him instead of Cain. I think that the two are equal stuff wise, but I worry about Cain's durability (more so than Lincecum). If I were the Giants I would make Lincecum untouchable. On the other hand, maybe they just see him as their best opportunity to fix that dreadful lineup they have. Its possible that maybe I missed something and Cain is out there too, but I hadn't heard anything.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought the Giants were interested in Rolen too,

so why don't we package Duncan and Rolen together.

We'd probably have to eat some of Rolen's salary, but that would be worth it.

Could we even get something else in return (like Rolen's replacement)?

"Jumpy, jumpy, jumpy, fall!" - Bob the King

by bobtheking on Dec 6, 2007 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It would be okay

but then you have to replace his bat we really need the pitching

by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 10:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think we just got Brian Barton!

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/events/winter_meetings/y2007/index.jsp?mc=rule5

by siddfynch on Dec 6, 2007 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

nice.

I was just reading about this guy.
He travels with pet turtle. That oughta sync well with tony's love for pets.

I'd rather my sister become a prostitute than my brother become a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 6, 2007 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the one guy I would have wanted

out of all the ones available.

It's like Mo is inside my head! Awesome!

Let's try it again.....I'm thinking of a 3B prospect...plays for Dodgers...plus a AAA reliever who put up cartoon numbers in 2006 and 2007...

by siddfynch on Dec 6, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would trade a year off of the end of my life

For Andy LaRoche...Ok maybe not that much! Lets cross our fingers that Colletti is dumb enough to deal him and Mozeliak is there to catch him!

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sweet!!!

I'm thrilled by this. Barton has a chance to be a really good player, I think. Top quality tools, and terrific intelligence. (he majored in aerospace engineering in college) This is very promising. We may have found the RH outfield bat we were looking for all along.

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

brian barton ... more drama

check this quote out over at STLToday.com:
one scout from a National League club said. "But this past year, it was almost like he'd earned this elite status and you saw him have this lackadaisical approach to the game that wasn't there before. Where he was playing with chips on both shoulders with something to prove initially, that part of his game was replaced by some sort of false bravado. He's really tough to get a handle on, but the tools are very real."

Just the kind of young player that clashes with TLR. Tony just isn't the guy for the place this club finds itself and I'm disappointed that management was so blind to this fact. The only consolation is that he's on a 2 year deal.

by jjray on Dec 6, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

He's got tools

he's cheap and he's better than So Freakin' Taguchi, who we DFA'd to get him.

What's not to like? The guy was injured last year...I love the get.

Here's some BA info:

Early Rule 5 Draft preview

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm confused

Didn't we send scouts to Montreal to watch Bob Clemente?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

if that lackadaisical notion is true

let's hope the cards can continually keep him challenged.

also, we now have barton, barden and braden on the roster. this could confusing.

I'd rather my sister become a prostitute than my brother become a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 6, 2007 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey pistol

All we need now is Barret LOL........LOL

by Calhoun on Dec 6, 2007 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

TLR could be the guy to give him the kick in the ass he may need. Its hard to tell when you're dealing w/ people. Some people's lackadaisacal-ness is just going to be there always (JD Drew), sometimes in the right situation you can kick it out of them (Randy Moss)...Who knows?

This pick sounds like a good one...Seems like his minor league numbers indicate some potential. Since he was a Rule 5 pick he has to be on the opening day roster or he's gone, right?

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Cesar, you suck again!

Without Izturis on the roster, we would have had another spot on the 40 man to take Leyson Septimo, a left handed OF converted to P who can throw 100 mph.

Fuck.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

there is this guy

named jiminez who is also wasting a roster spot...

by El Hombre on Dec 6, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can

I can say that about a handfull of guys on STL's 40 man.

I would not just single out Izturis.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This doesn't jibe

with anything I've read about Barton in the past, and I've been following him for a couple years now. I think this is as much stirring the pot as anything, and is unfortunate given the current climate. Barton seems like a solid citizen.

by siddfynch on Dec 6, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He's an astronaut

for pete's sake!

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The kid sees to be wicked smart.

Erik had a link to an interview with Barton over at futureredbirs. Tony was a law student and this kid studied aerospace there should be some mutual respect between the two.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Adding to the family

I know people get sick of the "Don Tony" moniker that Bernie uses for TLR, but how many organizations seem to actively pursue family members of coaches and players so much?

From the Rolen article at stltoday:

The Cardinals are also believed close to signing former Oakland A's lefthanded reliever Ron Flores to a minor-league contract. Flores, 28, is the younger brother of Cardinals reliever Randy Flores. The younger Flores made 17 appearances last season for the A's.

So if they acquire him, we can add him to the distinguished Cardinals nepotism list which includes:
C. Dunc
C. McKay
W. Pujols
M. Pagnozzi

I'm sure there are more. Not to say that C. Dunc and this guy are in anyway bad players, I just find it odd that the Cards end up with so many relatives in the organization.

by OCCardsFan on Dec 6, 2007 11:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The weird thing is I joked last year

that it'd be awesome to have both Flores and then use them back to back, RH and LH, completely screwing with hitters heads.

Then I realized I didn't want ANY Flores' on the roster.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Larry

Your ability to think outside the box is uncanny.

I think the Hot Stove suggestion of your's/Erik's is a great idea. Thank you for hearing our concerns and finding a balance.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

credit to erik

he came up w/ the idea. i had a problem w/ certain readability issues involved in a long-term catchall thread, but i thought it might work if we start w/ a clean thread every day.

i consider this an experiment, but i hope it does work ---- will be listening to feedback, so let me know how it's working for ya.

by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We got the WRONG Pirates backup IF

Jose Castillo was released by the Pirates today.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Rolen and Duncan

While I am ok listening to trade offers for Scotty Baseballl, I wouldn't want to eat any of Rolen's salary. I think at 12 million a year, he will be decent value. I think we can expect 2006 numbers out of him. Maybe not much more, but for his defense and those offensive numbers -- I will take it at 12 mil/year.

I am also with Tony on this (though admittedly don't know the behind the scenes stuff). Make him play. I don't think he would be a cancer in the way that some other players become distractions in the clubhouse. I would expect him to be a professional, and I think he would live up to that label.

2 interesting things that I haven't seen brought up, that I wouldn't mind seeing...

Ducan offer for Bay. Not sure it is enough, but it is a good starting point, and close I would think. Pirates get a power hitting LH under team control for 4 more years (I think). Cards get Bay at a reasonable salary 2 yrs/13.5 mil and an RH bat to balance out the OF lineup. I would take the proven entity that is Bay over the injury-proness and possible platoon player that Duncan is - even though Duncan has been more than I ever could have hoped for or expected, to date.
Prior to signing Cesar, did Mo ever talk a Rolen for Furcal deal with the Dodgers? That would seem to make some sense for both squads. We have/had a need for a SS and a leadoff hitter to replace Eck (coupled with clearing the clubhouse of a possible cancer situation), and Furcal is in the last year of his deal (I believe), and the Dodgers have interest in Scotty.

by Mills on Dec 6, 2007 11:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Aim lower

Apparently, per Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

The Pirates discussed a deal with St. Louis last month that would have sent shortstop Jack Wilson to the Cardinals for outfielder Chris Duncan, but that is no longer in play. Wilson probably will not be traded this offseason.

That's how little the Pirates think of Chris Duncan.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's typical Pirates stuff

Under Littlefield they used to ask for the moon for their average players. Seems like with Huntington they're at least not insulting anyone's intelligence...Littlefield would have asked for Molina and Garcia too.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In case no one realized it yet

we now have on the 40 man roster, Brian Barden and Brian Barton. We soon will have both Randy Flores and Ron Flores in the bullpen.

So, at any given time, the average fan could be confused when someone says "Flores is coming in from the pen" or "we've got Barton/Barden coming off the bench".

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

If only

that Daric kid was still around.

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 6, 2007 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not bad...

... the Blues have 3 Johnsons on the roster now (Mike, Eric, Ryan) as well as a Jackman and a Backman.

by kindred on Dec 6, 2007 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

need to find a way

to get Al Reyes back in the pen...

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

rule 5 has to be on the roster

so will this make way for a trade the outfield seems a little crowded...

by cm1000 on Dec 6, 2007 12:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

You would think that would be the case?

Maybe this won't be resolved until spring training and we see what Barton can do. Who knows but at least we finally did something that makes sense.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

mlbtraderumors.com...

...everyone's favorite site lately, is reporting that the padres are close to resigning milton bradley.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 6, 2007 12:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

What is wrong with Jorge Cantu?

Why did he go from being amazing to sucking arse in that span of 2 seasons? He's only 25 and the Cincinnati Reds just released him.

Yet another player I'd rather have than Cesar Izturis.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 12:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Cantu

I'd to see the Cards punt Miles and sign Cantu. Bring him into ST with a chance to compete for a job at 2B ala Junior Spivey. I know Spivey was a situation where we pee'd money down the drain but one of these deals has to pay off for us. One has to figure that one of Cantu or Kennedy is going to pull his head out and turn it around. The law of averages or something.

by jjray on Dec 6, 2007 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

winter meetings blog

couple interesting things in the winter meetings blog over at espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=winter_meetings

the cubs are looking to add dave littlefield to their organization as an advisor. love the sound of that!

the brewers might non-tender kevin mench. too bad our outfield is so crowded.

morgan ensberg might be non-tendered as well.

by FutureMan on Dec 6, 2007 1:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

The Astros = Miguel Tejada

the Astros are about to get Tejada for Chris Burke, Adam Everrett and a pitcher.

How in the world couldn't we match that deal? Outside of Rasmus and Anderson, we have nothing that could match up to that to entice the Orioles?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 2:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ok, maybe not

Houston radio station is saying it is near done but not final.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

they have a little blurb about it on MLB trade rumors. It definitely doesn't seem anywhere close to done yet.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 6, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

value for value...

haven't been on for a while so why not throw this one out there...

wouldn't it make sense to trade upside for upside and look for a kemp/duncan trade. can't act like i understand the inner depths of colleti's mind but he certainly seems to have a stamp on mr. kemp and is just waiting on a destination. figure we can get a right handed power bat to offset the lefthanded heaviness we currently our rocking. duncan may hit more homers right now, but i think kemp is the real deal and was just buried out in LA. OPS around 900 with only 10 homers in 300ab's, and OPS+ of 125. duncan also raked to the tune of OPS+ of 115, for comparison. the dodgers could use any power bat not to mention a cheap lefty one to support andruw and kent. i think that is the purest type of trade out their. value for value.

then, if that seems palatable perhaps then you take the next step and try something more exotic. do a rolen/reyes for laroche/pitching prospect (no way we're going to get billingsley or kershaw). i don't think i can even objectively gauge what the market is anymore to think if we'd eat salary in that deal or not but i'd love to see what numbers were tossed around.

go get kemp mo.

by trip mcneely2 on Dec 6, 2007 6:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Problem is...

... the Dodgers are running out of places to play people. Nomar and Loney are pretty entrenched at 1B, and they've got Jones, Pierre, Ethier, Repko as OFers already. Jones and Pierre are both going to play every day, and Pierre can't play in RF, so Duncan would be a part-time RFer, which is not his optimal position.

plus, i really think the Cards should get pitching back if they're going to trade Duncan.

by kindred on Dec 6, 2007 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs