diary guidelines --- seeking feedback
i deliberately avoided yesterday's "decency" thread, for fear of what it might do to my blood pressure; but i didn't want to shut it down. reading it over after the fact, i was pleased to discover that a few people articulated some of the themes that were on my mind. i'll be excerpting those folks down below.
my own thoughts about this boil down to one concept: intelligent discussion. the objective of this site is to promote intelligent discussion; the diary section is an instrument to promote and broaden that goal. the section is not a bulletin board for the latest rumors and news items, and it's not a scratch pad for fleeting ideas that somebody has dwelled upon for about 30 seconds. it's a place to share ideas that someone has devoted some thought to, maybe even done a little research on. a good diary presents a point of view that the rest of the community can learn from. meeting this standard has nothing to do with the length of the diary --- a juicy idea can be expressed in a single paragraph, and likewise a six-paragraph diary might consist of nothing but sloppy, random thoughts. it's about quality, not quantity.
the tricky thing, of course, is defining "quality." i have no desire to define it, nor do i consider myself qualified to do so in any absolute sense. on plenty of occasions i have read a diary and considered it terrible, only to see it generate a good discussion running dozens or even hundreds of comments long. likewise, i've seen diaries that i thought were brilliant get very little response. if you take any given diary, some people will think it's idiotic and others will love it. i want the diaries to be open to as broad a range of voices as possible. you can't have intelligent discussion without tolerance.
but you also can't have it without respect --- and that is a two-way street. when reading a diary, we should respect what other people are saying and their right to say it; but when writing one, we all have to respect the culture of the site. this is not the p-d boards, and freedom of speech is not an absolute right; it's both a right and a responsibility. posting a redundant diary cuts off the discussion someone else has launched in his / her diary; not considerate. posting multiple diaries in a day is the equivalent of hogging the mic; also not considerate. and posting new diaries for every rumor or wire report is a bit like spamming --- it fills up the fridge with junk food and crowds out the fully cooked meals.
here are some statements from yesterday's thread that i agree with:
from SleepyCA:It's about respecting your fellow forum members. I personally love the diaries; I'd hate it if this stupidity caused Larry to take them away because I'm interested in what YOU have to say as well as Larry and HC and the other guys who write the great main posts. I think most people who spend their down time here are also interested.
But when you post a diary for EVERY rumor that comes along in a separate diary, it pushes good diaries in which good discussion is going on off the page. That is disrespectful of the other people who took time to write their thoughts. . . .
It's also disrespectful of the people who want to read YOUR thoughts, because it makes us look in 4 or 5 different places and often information is replicated; we end up spending more time than is necessary to get the same information.
from cardzfan24:If you have a random thought, some rumor you saw from ESPN.com or MLB trade rumors, or any other site that is rountinely linked to here....90% of the time it isn't worthy of diary status.
Such things are perfectly fine in comment threads, and if you look, someone has almost certainly put up a diary about the topic you want to talk about. Those are the proper forums for rumor links and the like. At least, that is my understanding.
I lurked on this site for some time before I even logged in here. I did that because I respected this community and the high level of discussion that dominated it. Compared to MANY other SB nation sites...this one is supreme, in my opinion, and not just because I love the Cardinals. Many people here have intentionally created a community celebrating a common love of baseball and our team. That is why there is such a visceral reaction when the discourse is lowered here. Can some react better? Of course. Can the "diary police" be annoying? No doubt. But that does not mean we all forfeit our job to make this place better.
We all have a responsibility to make this a great site. I think a bit of a perspective shift is in order for all of us. Above all, we must realize this is NOT just some public forum. . . . . Think for about five minutes before you post a diary, and scan the last 10 diaries to see if your topic is unique or not. If it is not unique, put your info under the pre existing diary. If you have something new to share, share it in diary form or in the community main thread.
i don't think the diary problem has been as terrible as some people do; i understand why the so-called "diary police" are considered a little overzealous at times. but i appreciate that those individuals care enough about this site to fight for its principles. the site requires more time to keep up, and i have less time available; i'm stretched a little thin these days. striking the proper balance between quantity and quality, between tolerance and intelligent discussion, requires more attention and effort than i have to give. but it's a worthy goal. so what i'd like to do here is propose a few guidelines and then open the floor for discussion. here are some simple rules that can be implemented immediately:add your feedback / suggestions to this in the comments.
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58 comments
Comments
item for discussion
by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 1:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Better than a diary
by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely...
Sorry if the answer to this question has already been given, but why not have a "recommended diary" list like at BCB? Seems to work pretty well... You could put one of these diary nazis that are constantly hectoring people about decorum etc. in charge of the thing.
by guayzimi on Dec 6, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd love to have recommended diaries
since i wasn't given any firm date on the site upgrade rollout, i have hesitated to share that information ---- i made a big deal out of the site upgrade earlier this year and it never happened, which made me look like an idiot. but anyway, there it is --- recommended diaries on hold.
it may be possible however to do a manual version of recommended diaries --- it wouldn't be an automated feature, but i think it would be possible to create a manual list of recommended diaries. i'll look into that.
by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
your question
But, I would like the Diary Police - whoever, they are - to shut down no-brainer diaries....diaries that are duplicates of one still appearing, repeated rumors, etc........if we just shut down the obvious, problem solved and freedom of speech remains
Finally, I write Mo's Diary to humor myself and a few others....if anyone thinks that's taking up real baseball talk space, I'll shut that down too
Otherwise, agree with all above from LB
by Hinkster on Dec 6, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hell no hinkster
by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mo's Diary
Continue please.
Count me in as one who enjoys them.
Now if you have three Mo's Diaries a day every day then we should revisit.
by Harknights on Dec 6, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely...
honestly, i rarely go through the main threads anymore, even though i always read and enjoy them, because i don't have a whole lot to say in response to the draft breakdowns, or interviews with journalists specializing in off-the-field sports controversies. i enjoy reading that content, but i don't really think i have much to add to it, so i usually don't even open up the comments part of the main thread.
but when a new development in the direction of the team occurs, such as a new acquisition, it seems like an appropriate time for a diary. this can focus the discussion properly: the main thread post, which is usually the more substantive, can stay less muddled and on topic. the diary can cover the specific new development.
(now i'm going to rant for a second, so everyone can ignore me if they'd rather not see it.)
honestly, all this diary fuss has me a bit puzzled. i've spent enough time on message boards and online forums to understand that sometimes you have to sift through some dreck to get to the good stuff. it's not like there aren't a bunch of inane posts in the main threads also, which distract from discussion. but that's sort of the point of the internet: everyone gets a voice. i've learned to live with it at VeB, just as i have everywhere else, so i'm never upset if i read a somewhat poor diary.
i can understand why you would want to preserve the integrity of the site, LB, so i understand if you institute stricter policies. but i don't understand all these other people who are not in charge of the site getting all up in arms over this as if it were their site, when it's not. it's LB's world... we all just play in it. the talents of LB and his guest contributors have led to some outside attention from newspaper writers, and that has led to greater traffic, which has probably led to a lower average level of sophistication overall, but so what? it's not like anybody is paying money for this. it's supposed to be about fun, not snobbery and elitism. so, while i understand that certain long-standing members here want to keep the quality standards high for their own benefit, i also understand that newer members want to participate on a level that they are capable.
i've been here since the '04 off-season or thereabouts (IIRC), and i've seen plenty of people say plenty of silly/stupid things. i've seen just about everyone overreact at some point or other, including myself. i've seen a lot of folks making arguments that turned out to be silly in retrospect (for example, i argued in 2006 that Daubach should've been called up instead of Duncan when Pujols got hurt), but which seemed reasonable at the time.
so sure... institute some minimum standard for the diaries. i'd be happy with such a system. But a bit of humility and grace would also be a good thing, especially for those who've been on the site a long time and know better.
by kindred on Dec 6, 2007 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very much agreed
The exception are the aptly named "open threads" during actual games - when the main page does function like a message board. And I have to admit, I rarely get involved in those, lest I scroll past 50 entries reading "come on, Pujols." But I think the open threads serve their purpose well.
Multiple diaries on the same topic are clearly wasteful and annoying, but for significant changes like personnel moves not addressed in the main post, I think diaries are perfectly appropriate.
by bgodar on Dec 6, 2007 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree w/above
- any change to the 40-man is at least diary-worthy, if not front-page-worthy. in times like these, even a rule 5 pickup can be cause for hope and celebration; in any season, even a guy like j-rod deserves a eulogy.
- i think part of the maelstrom here is the winter meetings. not that that's the whole reason this all happened, but i'd say at minimum, winter meetings:veb kerfuffle::archduke ferdinand:wwii. as this site grows, i think it's going to require more creative ways to handle special events like this - specific programs/guidelines/events for the draft, for spring training, etc. those things get people excited in ways that are out of the ordinary, and i think they call for unique ways to express that excitement. the new daily hot stove thread is a smart example of this; here's to more in the future.
- hinkster, you should know better - although if you're doing 3 mo's diaries per day, i might lose my job.
by nycbirdo on Dec 6, 2007 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Question
Unless you mean, bump it down 20 spots or so. Then, maybe I agree.
Good job on this, larry.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 2:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
thanks HL
i propose "deactivate" rather than "delete" only because a hidden entry will still turn up on a search --- and you never know when that particular content might prove relevant to some later discussion. so rather than destroy the content, it would simply be removed from circulation.
that's my rationale, but this is all negotiable. if delete would be better --- or if the threshold should be 10 comments rather than 3, or whatever --- comment away.
by lboros on Dec 6, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, hiding is good
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and, at least for now,
by nycbirdo on Dec 6, 2007 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Location of Guidelines
Despite posting guidelines, I am sure many will end up posting a first diary without ever reading them.
So, which might be less annoying? Diary police pointing out/referring to rules? Or, possibly a Diary that is consistantly floated to top of the diary list with a strong title (like; READ THIS BEFORE POSTING DIARY)? Is locking a diary at the top possible? I mean, I appreciate the community guidelines. Not sure the average poster takes the time to read them before jumping into the site.
by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 2:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If I remember,
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ratings
Any way that SBNation can add in some of that functionality?
by rrvwmr on Dec 6, 2007 2:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Please no comment ratings
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be against a ratings system myself
by bailorg on Dec 6, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i give this idea a -7
by nycbirdo on Dec 6, 2007 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
against ratings
2006 WS for JB and DK57 RIP: Josh Hancock
by cardsfan84 on Dec 7, 2007 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a suggestion
i like the idea of hiding diaries as well.
by FutureMan on Dec 6, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree and just to add a little something
daily hot-stove thread --- all rumors / news to be discussed therein
no more than 2 diaries per 24 hour period for any given author
diary will be deactivated if it draws fewer than 3 comments in 24 hours (author's own comments don't count)
. Is it possible to automate the 2 diaries per day ala the 300 character minimum? Also there is a loophole in the 300 character minimum. Just add these.........................................................
by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My two suggestions:
- No duplicate diaries
Site mechanics/organization suggestion:
Either
- A recommended diaries system, or
- A system where a diary gets "bumped" up to the top of the list every time a comment is made
by bailorg on Dec 6, 2007 2:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1
by FutureMan on Dec 6, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The bump system
by bukowski on Dec 6, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right,
I'm in favor of a bump system, but with admins making sure that no one is just "bumping for the sake of bumping."
by aet15 on Dec 6, 2007 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am willing to wait it out....
by BigJawnMize on Dec 6, 2007 2:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I also share the sentiment that only noteworthy discussions warrant their own diaries, but of course I have no idea on how to define "noteworthy."
by Ray Lankford on Dec 6, 2007 2:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
honestly
if you take a look at the last 50 diaries, a lot of them are duplicated. at first glance you could probably boil those down to under 20 if you were to group them similarly.
by FutureMan on Dec 6, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, but
by Ray Lankford on Dec 6, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the
I also think it's good to have a diary for a newly acquired player even if it's also discussed in the main thread - it takes a long time to read all the comments in the main thread.
I will say that the people who "police" the diaries are definitely overzealous. One poster told another poster that if they wanted to post their illiterate thoughts, go to the PD message board.
I felt like that was mean spirited and unnecessary. I think it's nice people want to participate, contribute. But I do agree with the new guidelines. I like them and feel like they are a fair compromise.
by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What about the funny ones?
Humor still worthwhile?
by bukowski on Dec 6, 2007 4:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How about a Hot Box?
by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 4:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My two cents
by BigMac545 on Dec 6, 2007 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I guess I am missing the point
- There wasn't already a main post
- You were one of the main writers asked to do a main post.
So I guess what I am saying is that a transaction shouldn't be a diary...but an analysis of the player with projections and an explanation of the system used to project said stats is a diary.
So another way to put it is a diary would be what you would submit for publication.
Saying here's a link showing we picked up a player or a line about how you don't like what Tony said to Rolen or how Rolen reacted to it is a thread not a diary.
by Harknights on Dec 6, 2007 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Amendment 1.
If possible to have Diaries for subjects we will talk about forever.
for example.
Could we have just one diary for Steroids. Locked in near the top? anything new. in that diary. comments. in that diary. stories. in that diary.
by Harknights on Dec 6, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just one diary a day
Most people do not have enough UNIQUE and THOUGHT OUT arguements/ideas/discussions that would call for two diaries in one day. It seems to me that the people who would post twice are writing something that is not unique, and thus could be posted by someone else thinking about the same thing (scotty/tony feud, rule V pick, FA signing, etc).
One diary thread every 24 hours should be plenty.
by plaz on Dec 6, 2007 4:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
rule of thumb, not rule of law
so what happens if later that night, i want to post something more substantive? what if i woke up this morning and wanted to?
i understand what you're saying, and i think it's a balance - hopefully most of us heard 2/day and thought of that as a maximum, rather that a target.
by nycbirdo on Dec 6, 2007 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guilty
One other suggestion is that if SB is able to do it is only allow diaries from people that have been registered for awhile or have a certain comment count (though don't display that publicly, just under your own account page) so that people who just registered can't create diaries. I know some people lurk for a long time then have a "I want to post a diary" moment (I had that same thing before I registered) but I find that people who have been active commenting for awhile tend to want to write better posts and diaries then newly registered members.
I also love the daily hotstove since I really don't like posting those type of rumors/extra fluff in the main thread, I like keeping the main thread on topic to something the author discussed. I use diaries for any deviations from the main topic.
Something I would REALLY like to see, but doubt SB will be able to do, is a newsfeed that allows me to post a one line statement (diary title) that links directly to a story (instead of opening the diary it would open the hyperlink) that way I can post something like "Cards pick Barton in Rule V Draft" and it links to the BA article or the mlb.com article on the subject. This type of thing could show the last 10 links and have a "more" link. This would eliminate almost all of the short diaries since that is all most people want to do, share a story they found with others.
Something else I have been considering but not sure how to do is a feed sharing system for the community. I use googlereader and I can "share" feeds with my wife and others, and you can have any number of "public" tags for your feeds. This allows me to tag something as "cardinals" or "baseball" and if you subscribe to my tag you would see that story in your feed reader. Somehow I would like to see us be able to "share" our feeds/articles with others that use feed readers so when I run across those cool links I can share it with other VEBers and have it show up in their reader. This could be done via the newsfeed I was talking about earlier or by having a permanent diary in which we all post a link to our shared feeds.
Sorry about the long windedness but I had a lot of ideas. I will check back tonight or tomorrow if anyone wants me to further explain what I am talking about.
by StLHugo on Dec 6, 2007 5:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i can't say i like this oligarchic bit
by ortic jones on Dec 6, 2007 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At least we have this problem...
by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 5:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Question
What are the top ones?
Whar are the least visited ones?
I am curious.
by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
VEB, #5010
Gaslamp Ball #5732
Bleed Cubbie Blue #4175
Amazin' Avenue #6450
Bless You Boys #7220
Search to your heart's content at The Truth Laid Bear.
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
typo
The Truth Laid Bear: truthlaidbear.com
by dontEATnachos on Dec 6, 2007 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct.
by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Editor Suggestion
One of the first actions this editor could perform would be a series of polls. Each poll would be about one specific rule of thumb for the diaries. For example "Should trade rumors be allowed as diaries?" This would preserve a democratic spirit, but they would remain guidelines, the editor would have the authority to make exceptions.
by 1985kid on Dec 6, 2007 6:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Strength of the Daily Thread
I first found veb two hot stove seasons ago when I was desperately sure that the internet could provide better content to follow trade rumors and everythng else. I now have a full list of saved links to sites that are mostly linked also from veb, so I, like many others here may have seen the mlbtr or rosenthal tidbit before someone thought it necessary for a diary. I prefer the daily topical action to be retained in a single substantially chronological thread. Checking back and forth the dialog evolution of multiple threads is simply incoherent.
My preference is to see the diaries used for ideas that are less time sensitive, and merit continued thoughtful comments that may extend for days after the original posting. With the general downgrade in the quality of diaries, I simply have found myself frequently electing not to read a p-d style thoughtless entry, (although admit to occasionally enjoying the veb roasting some have received).
I really enjoy the veb community, from those that are unable to get their point across without posting at least 30 comments per day, to those occasional "long time reader-first time posters". Just keep it thoughtful and constructive.
by Birds on the Bat on Dec 6, 2007 7:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
like the way you think
I've also done the, preload a couple tabs in Firefox with VEB discussions. I know that I can easily kill time on a flight with those.
by dontEATnachos on Dec 6, 2007 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting note
Only the top-most main thread ever gets comments. The previous day's thread will occasionally get a few posts in response here and there but generally, once a new post is up the general discussion just seems to move to it.
This is almost the opposite of diaries. For them discussion can seem to go on for multiple days or longer.
When you split it up like that it's pretty clear that the site is separated into two sections that function in two very different ways. The system that is most analogous to the Diaries section though is a typical message board system.
When you consider the diaries section as a message board you can use many of the different techniques that have been employed over the years to try to make them operate smoothly (and they almost never do, there are always old guard decrying changes and new people who are trying to make their mark).
Still, I've seen the last-comment based bump system be quite effective at making sure that discussions with good information are at the top. As long as there are enough diaries with discussions going on, even if someone artificially bumps their own post, it'll sink again pretty quickly if people don't keep commenting.
Plus, with some message boards you can automatically be subscribed to every thread you comment in. Then, when you log into your control panel you can easily see all the threads that have been new posts. While new threads can still be created continually, there is a also place you can go to and just see those that you've contributed to and are part of the ongoing discussion.
by dontEATnachos on Dec 6, 2007 7:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
One more thing
Something to consider when reading/replying to posts or comments: according to a study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (that I know of only because of this article in Wired) there is only a 50/50 chance that people are interpreting the tone of your posts correctly.
by dontEATnachos on Dec 6, 2007 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i believe you should
agree with the 3 suggestions you have LB. it'd be very good to have a do's & dont's for diarys some where at the top so every one can see it.
the level of intellect around these parts has been abysmal for far too long. personally it's been no fun for me to try & read all the low quality comments & diary's. i've cut way back on my participation because of this. any thing that can be done to bring back the high quality comments & diary's will be greatly appreciated.
by gdm426 on Dec 7, 2007 3:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's not about seniority to me,
Unless there is a breaking news story to be reported upon (ie. Hancock dies, Ankiel is linked to HGH, Pujols is a god), diaries should not be a short a short snippet and a link; they should be thought of as an extension of the main page. Before you post a diary, think of it as an "audition" (if you will) to being a writer on the front -- ie. would LB, or HC, or AZ, or RB, or PBR, or FUBAR, or any other weird letter combo we have so fantastically writing at VEB now write anything close to what you just wrote?
I'm not asking anyone to be as introspective as The Red Baron or as stats wise as AZ, or as full of common sense and Midwestern sensibilities as LB, but to think, before they publish a diary: "would the thousands of people who visit VEB every day really care about what I have just written? Is it well thought out enough to hold up against the panel of critics which may follow? Is it redundant? Can it be any better?"
That's what I ask myself after everything I write: "Can it be any better?" And the answer is always yes. There are things I have written three years ago that I wish I would have waited an extra twelve hours to print; I bet in five minutes, I will find a dozen things wrong with this comment.
This falls under the old Dwight Schrute rule of "Right before I do something, I ask myself 'would an idiot do this?' If the answer is 'yes', I don't do it."
I'm sorry that I come off as such an ass about the whole VEB diary situation, but I hate to see such a great site be brought down by a terrible signal-to-noise ratio, and I appreciate those who keep it as intellectually stimulating and challenging as a baseball site can be.
by Alxfritz on Dec 7, 2007 3:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All I would ask
by rockin redbird on Dec 7, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You know what?
This is a free service to anyone who cares to post or read. Post or don't. Read or don't.
No need for lboros to do more than he already does.
by jillsinmo on Dec 7, 2007 6:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs



















