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Around SBN: Pro Combat Goes B1G: Minnesota Edition

The Shortest Thing You'll Ever Get From Me.

Please forgive the abbreviated post this morning.  I've got a ton of stuff I have to try and get done today; I just don't have the time to type up the Iliad as I usually do each and every Wednesday.  

The Winter Meetings are in full swing; rumours flying madly back and forth.  My take on some of the recent developments:  

The Marlins made out like bandits in the Cabrera/Willis deal.  I know that Miguel Cabrera is a hell of a hitter, but personally, I think his weight issues and his defensive shortcomings are going to push him to 1b/DH sooner rather than later.  I know, it won't be a problem for Detroit, seeing as how they're in the AL, but he's going to get a monster payday to sit on the bench, eat malomars, and come to the plate four times a night.  Hopefully, the Tigers' staff can come up with something to help out Dontrelle Willis and make him a really good pitcher again, but I have my doubts.  As things stand right now, I think Andrew Miller has a very good chance of being a better pitcher than the DTrain over the next 3-5 years, so I consider those two a straight deal.  That means the Tigers gave up five prospects, including one of the top five prospects in the entire game, (Maybin) for the right to pay Miguel Cabrera 18 million dollars a year to hit.  Again, I know Cabrera is a transcendent hitter, but, on balance, I would take Maybin every time.  Guys with his offensive ceiling who play premium defensive positions are too rare.  I'm sure this move makes the Tigers better in the short term, but I have the distinct feeling that we've just seen a team trade away far more than what they're getting back.  

The whole Santana thing is looking as if it may end up going down the same way, to me.  According to a ton of different sources, (I would post a link, but there are so many stories about it, I don't even know which one is the best to start with) the Yankees have mostly fallen out of the race for Johan's services.  The California teams that didn't get Cabrera, especially the Angels, now appear to be the only real competition with the Red Sox to try and get a deal done with the Twins.  It looks as if the Twins are trying to get Boston to include both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester in the deal, and the Sawx are sticking to their guns of not offering both in the same package.  I hope the Twins win on this one; if they manage to pry Lester, Ellsbury, and a guy like Jed Lowrie away in return for Santana, it would be an absolute masterstroke of trading acumen by their new GM.  I'm not sure what kind of package the Angels would offer, but I'm sure a guy like Brandon Wood would be included.  Something along the lines of Wood, Nick Adenhart, and Howie Kendrick would be very attractive, although I'm not sure if the Angels would part with both Wood and Kendrick in the same deal.  Even with the ridiculous MI depth they have in their system, that would put a serious strain on the resources.  As far as the Dodgers, they balked at the package the Twins wanted earlier in the winter; I don't see them as willing to part with what it would take to get the deal done.  If I were the Twins, I would hold out for the Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie package; if you don't get it now, wait until July, when teams start getting desperate to get back into a race.  That's when you'll really get the stupid offers.  

Why in the hell wouldn't you offer David Eckstein arbitration?  You can't possibly be that afraid he'll accept.  Eck back on a one year deal isn't at all a terrible outcome, and you get the draft pick otherwise.  As it is now, you get nothing.  That's an absolute failure to properly assess a situation.  Mo hasn't done the things I was most afraid of, and yet he's still finding ways to shake my faith in him already.  Patience.  Rome wasn't built in a day.  

And our own dear boys, Scotty Baseball and Anthony Reyes.  Apparently, both of these players are proving harder to move than what was originally anticipated by Mr. Mozeliak and company.  I'm glad Rolen didn't get moved to Milwaukee; I don't think the parameters of the deal were great for the Cardinals.  The Dodgers are certainly an intriguing option, I've heard that something along the lines of Andy LaRoche and Scott Elbert might be doable.  If that's the case, I would be pretty happy, as long as the Cards weren't on the hook for a ton of Rolen's salary.  Both are great prospects; the Dodgers seem a little down on LaRoche, although I have no idea why, and Elbert's a hometown guy.  (Seneca, MO, I believe)  It would be nice to have a young, talented lefty in the system who hails from right in the team's backyard.  Any package with less value than that one, to me, isn't worth considering.  Scott Rolen is still one of the top third baseman in the game, and if you're not going to get top value out of him, hold on to him.  Try to move him later.  (I'm picking up a pattern here in my opinions as to trading star players.)  

As for Anthony, it's going to be tough to get anything decent for him at the moment.  He pitched atrociously last year, and the team has severely hurt his value by being so public with their negativity toward him.  If you want to trade a player, it's much better if other teams think you at least sort of still believe in him.  When you come out and say there's really no place for him on your team, it tends to drive down the kid's value.  Chalk up another big red W for the Tony LaRussa public relations extravaganza.  

I've heard some talk about moving Reyes for Cliff Lee.  I have mixed feelings about this, tending toward negative.  I actually like Lee, and I think he's a much better pitcher than what he showed last year.  However, his attitude has been sorely questioned in the past, and he's much more expensive than Reyes.  At least with Anthony, as Jill is fond of pointing out, he's kept his mouth shut and been a good soldier, regardless of how much crap has been heaped on him.  So I think I'll pass on Lee.  Now, if the Cards could pry Jeremy Sowers away from Cleveland, that's a different story...

If the Cards trade Reyes for Jack Cassell, or his equivalent, I may find another team to root for until some real changes are made in the team's management.  I hate to sound over the top, and I'm sure it doesn't seem like much to those who dislike Reyes, but if you're going to move a kid who still has a lot of promise for basically a worse, albeit grounder generating, version of his underachieving self, the team isn't really going anywhere.  Either get some real value for Anthony or give him a chance to prove he's worth something.  2008 isn't looking so hot anyway.  

Oh, also, one of my favourite trade targets was moved.  Carlos Quentin was traded by the DBacks.  I'm really disappointed the Cards didn't make a play for him.  I think he really would have been a good addition to the outfield, and it would have freed up Duncan to be moved for a young gun.  

Which brings me to my last point.  I'm hearing that the Cardinals aren't wanting to move Duncan.  I can understand that, there are a ton of great reasons to keep him.  But he may be your one really great bullet to bring in a future impact starter or MI prospect; if the Cards are putting him off limits because of Tony and Dave, that's just one more reason on a very long list I have as to why it was a bad idea to bring back LaRussa.  Don't get me wrong, I would have to really be excited by an offer to move Chris, but so far it looks as if the guys on the trading block are guys that either want to get away from Tony or Tony wants gone, while possibly the best trading chip the team has looks to be off limits because the manager likes him.  I'm afraid that as long as LaRussa is here, Mozeliak, (or anyone else) is going to really be handcuffed as far as the moves they can make to improve the team, since it all has to pass through the filter of, "Would this work with LaRussa and Duncan?"  I really am trying to keep an open mind about this whole process, but I have to admit to being disappointed by some of the things I'm hearing so far.  Hopefully, I'm just overreacting.  

Also hopefully, since I put up this short, hasty thread, something big will happen today and we'll have something of substance to discuss.  Here's to hoping.  

I should have my draft overview ready for next week; I just didn't have the time this morning.  Have a nice day everyone.  

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While I agree with you
on the various costs of bringing back LaRussa, I disagree with offering Eck arbitratiion. The Cards (in their current configuration) seem to agree with me that Eck's defense can't be hidden, and that an arbitration award of say 7 mil. (he did post a .309 this year) would be a waste of resources needed elsewhere. They may also have assessed the market for him and seen little interest.

by vinniefromjersey on Dec 5, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions  

I was reading over at USSMariner
yesterday when they were discussing why the Ms didn't offer Jose Guillen arbitration.  Dave, one of the main authors, had this to say:

The actual exposure the team had was 1/6th of whatever they projected his potential arbitration award to be, thanks to a clause in the CBA that allows teams to release players prior to March 15th and only be liable for 16% of the salary they were given in arbitration. So, if the M's thought Guillen would accept abritration and they really didn't want him back, they could simply release him by paying him something around $2 million to just go away. That's their real exposure.

Which makes me think that not offering Eckstein was an even worse idea.  At most this team would be responsible for about 1.25M if he accepted arbitration and they didn't want him.  First of all, I'd contend that a top 100 draft pick is probably worth that kind of a wager and secondly I'd reiterate that while he hasn't seemed to generate much interest yet, it doesn't seem likely he'd already be willing to settle for a 1 year deal.  They should have offered Eckstein arbitration.

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2007 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

If the plan is to release him anyway...
Doesn't that seem sorta underhanded? Or a bit unethical? Or is it just me. Going into it with that plan would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

by airhad on Dec 5, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

underhanded? unethical?
no. granting him arbitration with the intention of releasing him by march (aka, asap) if he accepts, and not offering him arbitration at all (aka, cutting him loose) are equivalent as far as eck is concerned. actually, given the choice, i'm sure he'd prefer getting arbitration and then getting released, as he'd pick up a quick 1/6 of whatever the award was.

and as far as this being sneaky/unethical on the cards' part, it's just playing by the rules. this sort of thing was obviously considered and planned for; otherwise, rules and procedures for it wouldn't be included in the cba. this is no more unethical a move than the yankees outspending everyone by $80 million - just the rules of the game.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

it's unethical because
eckstein then has very limited ability to negotiate a team that really wants him ---- and intends to pay him 100 percent of the negotiated salary, instead of merely 1/6.

by march, most teams will have addressed their needs and spent their budgets, leaving eckstein with no leverage. he'd still find a job, but would have to accept a crappy salary and probably a limited role with his new team.

if you screwed a player over like that, the players and agents won't trust you. good luck signing the next free agent you're interested in.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2007 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

All the more reason...
why he wouldn't/shouldn't accept arbitration. If he were to accept...he accepts this risk.

If I understand correctly with him being a type B free agent we don't actually get another team's pick; just a supplemental pick.  ITTC offering arbitration wouldn't have effected his value to another team.

by cardzfanbub on Dec 5, 2007 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.
Playing within the rules and playing within the "spirit" of the rules are two different things. Releasing a player so quickly after they accept arbitration would be roughly akin to trading a player soon after signing them as a FA in that you've made a commitment to them and then suddenly turned your back on that commitment. It's bad business.

by airhad on Dec 5, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Trading a player you just signed
unless they took a hometown discount, they are getting the money they were promised anyways.

As far as dumping Eck in March, he accepts that risk by taking arbitration.  It's a game of cat and mouse.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

if you had your choice of 30 potential employers
and one of them had a habit of treating its commitments like this ---- as a game of cat and mouse, as you say ---  wouldn't it tend to make you avoid doing business with that employer?

a team that behaved this way would have a difficult time signing new talent and keeping their own talent.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

money talks
people on here say that a player only cares about one thing: money.  

If an organization has a history of 'flipping' players who take arbitration, that'll only matter until they submit that highest bid on the free agent's contract.

Let's look at the Eckstein situation:

  • Cardinals offers Eckstein a 2 year deal
  • Eckstein tests the market for 4 year deal
  • Cardinals offer aribtration
Now, it's up to Eckstein to assume that risk.  They already offered him a fair deal to return.  He turned them down.  He can take the arbitration case and live with what the arbiter gives him or he can decline it and move one with his life.

That's the inherent danger of becoming a free agent.  If he accepts the arbitration, he's already taking the safest route possible to return to a team.  And he makes money either way.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

yes money talks --- and a player loses money
if a team does an arbitration "flip." that pisses off not only the player but, more important, his agent --- who also loses money.

an agent who feels a gm has dicked him around and cost him money will avoid doing business with that gm again.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2007 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

name three
not being dickish; i'd genuinely like to hear some examples.

by baw on Dec 6, 2007 2:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Today on KTRS
TLR said that they offered Eck a 3yr deal in the spring of last year, and he said no.
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Dec 5, 2007 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you
I was hoping someone would say that. Best that it was you. Sometimes I think everyone forgets that we are talking about actual people here when it comes to all of these maneuvers. Sure it's a business. But it's also not a video game.

by The Butcher on Dec 5, 2007 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

not unethical
This move could not possibly be viewed as unethical because it only gives Eckstein another option -- it does not reduce his current options in any way since he is a type-B free agent, and therefore being offered arbitration does not hurt his negotiating position with other teams.

by apack on Dec 5, 2007 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

the missing element
...in my uninformed mind, re Davey:
arbitration aside, what was the basic resolution to the move-Eck-to-2b possibility?
Surely this was considered.  Was the resolution.... a) Eckstein rejected the idea; b) LaRussa et al felt he would not be any better defensively at 2b than he is at SS; was it the annoying and ludicrous "fact" that since Kennedy was guaranteed his salary for two more years we are "stuck" with HIM at 2b; or d) other.

by the Tewk on Dec 5, 2007 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Is there any examples
Does anyone know of a team offering a FA arbitration, having the player accept, then releasing a player in spring training?

by ubeddie on Dec 5, 2007 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

That offer
you brought up for Rolen is the only offer so far I have even thought passable. I wonder if we threw in someone like Ankiel and Reyes if we could get Either, Kemp, or Looney back in such a deal.  

If Rolen really hates it that much in St. Louis, Mo should be up front with him and say: play your ass off for the first half of 2008 and we will move you at the deadline. Let him know that the Cards are willing to help him out and send him elsewhere, but the team is not going to take a bath in his contract and hurt the future of the club to do so. Play well and you will help us help you. Still seems like the best move to me.

by JMedwick on Dec 5, 2007 9:22 AM EST reply actions  

hopefully
they knew he wouldn't get offers if they offered him arb and were doing it out of respect for him, not wanting to hurt his chances elsewhere. really we are running out of reasons that they didn't offer.
I cannot stand being a fanatical for an egregiously average team. I am giving a two year grace period before we break up.

by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree
with your take on the Cabrera/Willis move to Motown.  Unless Miggy gets a handle on his weight, he is a DH waiting to happpen.  Maybe he should be a DH no matter what his poundage because he is great with the bat but his glove is nothing special.  If I were a Tiger fan, I would rather have Inge manning third base than Cabrera.

I also wonder why arbitration wasn't offered to Eck.   I understand the fact that players have a week to decide whether or not to accept and, as is the case this year, the deadline falls past the winter meetings.  But since our big signing so far has been Izturis, I have a feeling he still would have been available after Dec. 8.

I loathed the idea of trading Scotty to the Brewers.  I am fairly confident that one would have come back to bite us on the butt.  Personally, I think we will see Mr. Rolen start the season wearing Birds on Bat across his chest, but this situation has inspired lots of drama, drama, drama across Cardinal Nation.

P.S. - Looking forward to next week's draft overview.    

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 5, 2007 9:40 AM EST reply actions  

Supposedly
Cabrera has been working out like a demon this winter and has already lost a lot of weight.  Don't know if that's true, or if it'll stick, but it's gotta be encouraging for Tigers fans.

And, baron, I couldn't disagree more with the idea that, given the choice between Maybin and Cabrera, you'd take Maybin every time, presumably straight up.  You say that "Guys with [Maybin's] offensive ceiling who play premium defensive positions are too rare." I can assure you that guys like Maybin -- extremely highly touted five-tool prospects -- flame out far more frequently than guys like Cabrera (one of the top 5 best hitters in the majors for years now), regardless of where he fits on the defensive spectrum.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Dec 5, 2007 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Per Crazy Guillen
They are neighbors and he says Cabrera has already lost 15 lbs this off-season.  I'd like to know what diet he is on that he lost 15 lbs in 2 months, with Thanksgiving sprinkled in.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

more importantly
i think we should consider the diet he wasn't on.  apparently the guy ate nothing but fast food and hated working out.  it's not inconceivable for him, a 25 year old gifted athlete, to shed a lot of weight quickly by simply eating properly and working out.  and for the first time ever.

ever seen supersize me?  it's amazing how bad fast food is for you.  

by birdsonthebat on Dec 5, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, guys
I should add, though, that I think the Marlins did make a good deal with the Tigers.  They basically traded 2 yrs of Cabrera for, what, 15-20 yrs worth of pre-arb-eligible talent?  Very good talent, mind you.  That's as good as they were gonna get, and bodes well for their future.

But I think the Tiggers made a good deal too.  Unlike the Marlins, much of their talent is either old (Rogers, Ordonez, Sheff, I-Rod, etc.) or in their prime (Granderson, etc.), so it makes sense for them to sacrifice their future for some major-league-ready talent.  

I've noticed these kinda deals happening more often in the last year or two.  The negative spin is that the GMs have given way to groupthink.  The positive spin is that GMs are getting better and better at valuing talent and putting it in context of their teams' needs, and that this kind of intelligence is saturating the market.  Good thing to keep in mind when we consider Mo's moves.  I hate to say it, but no more Jocketty-type fleecing for guys like McGwire, Edmonds, etc.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Fleecing
I think that there will be fleecing going on, but it will be more like the reverse of the Jocketty-template (prospects a, b, and c for good player 1).  I feel like teams know more about the prospects floating around out there than they did 10 years ago or so, so teams will deal their stars and get a much better prospect package in return.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

When
He is young, you must remember he is only 24 years old.  He still has a very high metabolism if he does anything at all.  It sounds as if he ate like crap, and refused to do any physical activity.  Believe me he was so overweight he could have lost 15-20 pounds in 5 weeks simply by skipping fast food and deciding to walk 1 mile each day.  It's not like he did something magical.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 5, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

It's entirely possible
to lose 15 pounds in two months, no matter the time of year. In 1981, I went from 225(at 5' 8.5", way too heavy for me) in August to 160 in four months. All I did was increase my metabolism by going from sedentary to active; no weight training, diet pills, nothing. By February, I had lost 80 lbs. It's all a matter of willpower.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 5, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and
I was almost 30 at the time, so I wasn't exactly a spring chicken.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 5, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Weight
I have to agree.  When I was 24, I graduated from college.  By simply switching from regular to diet soda, I dropped 40 pounds in a 4 month time period.  (What can I say - I drink a lot of soda.)  And I certainly wan't doing any off-season conditioning for my job to help with my weight loss.  

by Robb on Dec 5, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Believe it or not
Losing 2 pounds a week is pretty much a standard target for overweight males.  And that's a pretty easy target for any guy who does lots of cardio plus dietary changes.

Just for the record.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 5, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Brian
What I said in regards to Maybin vs. Cabrera should probably be qualified a little bit.  I meant what I said, but I may not have put it in quite the right terms.  I'm fully aware of how often guys like Maybin flame out, whereas Cabrera is pretty much a known quantity at this time.  

What I basically meant was more in relation to the type of player that each are.  I'm probably not giving enough credence weight to Maybin's chances of flaming out, and I really mean more, "the player that I, and most others, expect Cameron Maybin to be."  If Maybin ends up being as good as most scouts and everybody else see him being, I think he's more valuable than Cabrera.  There are a ton of great bat, no glove guys you can get to DH and mash for you.  Admittedly, there aren't many in Cabrera's class, but I just don't like one dimensional players.  

It's sort of like the Molina vs. Bryan Anderson argument.  There are certain things that Molina does incredibly well, yes, but when you can plug in great offense at a position where you don't ordinarily expect to get a whole lot of it, it has a huge impact on the team's overall ability to score runs, in relation to the rest of the league.  

You are right, though, there is a certain amount of risk inherent with a player like Maybin, who still has to prove that he's going to put out production to match his prodigious potential.  (I'm Spiro Agnew all of a sudden.)  I stated my case in somewhat inaccurate terms.  

By the way, Brian, you need to stop by here more often.  We don't see enough of you anymore.  

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 8:04 AM EST up reply actions  

more rolen stuff
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/125B84A19A39982A862573A800192401 ?OpenDocument

gordon takes some shots at scotty here,

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/09050E6BB2E55E76862573A80004 F4E6?OpenDocument

sorry about the long link eric, its too early & the interwebs are hard.

one question, will this needless drama ever end?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 5, 2007 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

quick soap digest
Can someone bring me up to speed on exactly what and how things have gone so sour between TLR and Rolen? I know Rolen didn't report injuries--God forbid we have a guy who grits his teeth and tries to play through. And he was PO'd that he was benched during the playoffs. OK, so a WS Championship healed a couple of wounds there.

I didn't hear anything concrete about conflict during 2007, only that TLR sent a condescending letter to Rolen telling him what he needed to do to get back in good standing. How'd Tony get the idea that that'd work? Or was he trying to force Rolen into a trade-demand situation?

So here we have warm & fuzzy Jeff Gordon calling Rolen a whiner and malcontent. Gordon is a company Kool-Aid drinker, but he's usually pretty soft on gritty players until they've actually done something wrong.

What'd I miss?

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 5, 2007 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and as for trades
One word to finally kibosh any Rolen-to-Dodgers rumors: Bowa.

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 5, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Does he...
Hate Tony more than Bowa?

Remember Tony is the manager and Bowa is just the 3B coach.

Much easier to just stay away from Bowa than Tony.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Some
May argue Rolen hates Bowa a lot more than TLR.  But I see what you are saying is it's not like Bowa is his direct boss.

Oh well this type of stuff happens a lot I guess.  I don't like talking about it since it is always hard to tell what is truly going on since Tony and Scott don't go into a lot of detail about things.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 5, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

One can only hope
that this soap opera re-run will finally play out.  But with the local media adding fuel to the fire on a daily basis, it could take awhile. I saw Jeff Gordon's column on Rolen yesterday.  I guess you can write anything you want if you call it "commentary", but I thought his piece was unnecessarily rude.  I haven't seen or heard Scott make a public statement on what he will or will not do next season, so how does Gordon know that Rolen "has no intention of handling this situation professionally"?  In my eyes, the one who looks unprofessionaly here is Jeff Gordon.    

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 5, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

heartily agree
we all know of the 'trouble' in late '06, but I don't recall anything in '07 that aggravated the Rolen/LaRussa tiff, or even kept it alive.
If Gordon's snide phraseology is based on something, the evidence went past me.
To echo other posters...what did I miss?

by the Tewk on Dec 5, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Did Jeff Gordon actually write this:
"I'd rather see the Cards deal Rolen to the Rangers or the Giants, taking back an expensive pitcher (Kevin Millwood?) or a decent hitter (Pedro Feliz?) in the process."

Calling Pedro Feliz a "decent hitter" really causes me to question Gordon's intelligence. How long has this guy been covering sports? Is he for real???

by airhad on Dec 5, 2007 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Nevermind the fact
That he can't be traded.  Feliz is a free agent.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 5, 2007 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

at least he recognizes
the fact that "there are lots of potential 12-16 game winners out there"...  he doesn't name any, but he feels their presence.

Use the force, mo!  And have patience.  But hurry up and do something.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Pulitzer...
The Pulitzer name sure has been watered down. Sheesh. Is it any wonder that instead of going to www.stltoday.com/sports for my Cards news instead I come here? Or to Future Redbirds?

You bloggers deserve a great deal of credit - and full-time paid writing gigs.

by airhad on Dec 5, 2007 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

gordo is a bozo
Agree completely on your assessment, erik.

He should be writing the chef's daily specials on a chalkboard somewhere, not published sports "commentary."

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 5, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

agree with you both
he's probably a nice fellow but I gotta figure the pay for that job is peanuts and we get what they pay for

by Hinkster on Dec 5, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed
I read that line and thought, "this guy writes for The Sporting News." Geez. FJM had a great take on Eckstein from Gordo. You gotta love those always-mockable reporters.

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2007 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Reyes and Rolen
what are the chances that Reyes is in the rotaion next year, and what are the chances the Duncan lets him throw the four seamer?

 Scott Rolen for LaRoche/Elbert trade is one I would be happy with. I would want to see Elbert medical records. Just like the Dodgers will want to see Rolen's.

 I really don't think Mo wants to trade Rolen, but Reyes I thought was out. I was hoping they could get an MI prospect or two.

by nybirdfan on Dec 5, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

+1
clearly, reyes hasn't developed the way they want him to.  let the guy throw like he wants and see which one is better. (not trying to get into a "how to fix" reyes talk-because i have no idea).

makes me think of days of thunder.  anyone?  

by birdsonthebat on Dec 5, 2007 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed
just let him pitch the way he wants to and see what happens. if we still wanna get rid of him at the deadline then his trade value should be higher
I cannot stand being a fanatical for an egregiously average team. I am giving a two year grace period before we break up.

by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Fairly or unfairly,
I think Reyes is considered damaged goods, or at the very least, an underachiever, and that is why Mo will not get what he wants in return for him.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 5, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the VEB community
should start a grassroots movement to get Duncan to let Reyes pitch how Reyes wants to pitch. Mention it in bold at the top of every day's post or something. Honestly, it got Felix Hernandez to either throw more or less fastballs (I can't remember which). Why couldn't it work here? It's worth a shot. I think if ARey is allowed to pitch how he needs to to be successful, he's the solid #2A-#3 starter we need for years to come.

by Jhusk on Dec 5, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

we need at least one
more starter not josh fogg Rolen stays till the trade deadline thats fine let him bat in front of albert and he will put up good numbers then move him, pitching folks pitching and a right handed of bat keilty form the red sox comes to mind??

by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions  

Are you kidding?
Rolen apparently gave his blessing to talks last month with the New York Yankees, who examined options for several days following third baseman Alex Rodriguez's decision to opt out of his deal with the franchise. Rodriguez later agreed to an extension after Mozeliak made an unsuccessful play for Yankees pitchers Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes

I understand trying to get what Rolen is worth but come on. You expect the Yanks to pick up salary and give up two young pitchers? I'm betting all he heard was a dialtone after that.  

It's not like teams don't read the newspapers. They know why we want to trade him.  

by JShell73 on Dec 5, 2007 10:05 AM EST reply actions  

sources
I never heard that Moz asked for joba and hughes, I think you just made that up. I was following the situation closely.
I cannot stand being a fanatical for an egregiously average team. I am giving a two year grace period before we break up.

by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Read the link above
the Post Dispatch reported it in the link listed half a page up.

by JShell73 on Dec 5, 2007 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

definitely remember them asking
for joba OR hughes. that isn't made up; i read it too. not sure that mo asked for BOTH - that, i agree, would have been ridiculous.
does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

My comment
was a direct quote from the article.

by JShell73 on Dec 5, 2007 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

of course they asked
they almost certainly didn't expect to get it, but you always open a negotiation by asking for more than you think you'll get.  It's expected, and Cashman is expected to react accordingly, countering with two pitching prospects no one has heard of, and they go back and forth until they make a deal or accept that they can't work anything out.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Rooting for another team
I hope this isn't a serious comment. I'm sorry, but being a fan isn't conditional. That just doesn't seem right to me.

by rockin the red on Dec 5, 2007 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

Nope.
I'm mostly serious.  Don't get me wrong, I'll always love the Cardinals, but stepping away from them because you disagree with the way they do things is completely justified, in my opinion.  

I love the members of my family, but if I can't stand the way one of them is choosing to live their life, then I don't have to associate with them.  It doesn't mean I've stopped caring, but I can't be a party to their choices.  

What do you think you should do?  Blindly love the team, just because of who they are, regardless of how you feel about the way they're conducting business?  If you think that blind loyalty is required just because you care about something, then I don't really know what else to say to you.  

I care about the Cardinals, but the way that certain things are being handled really bothers me.  I'm sorry if that doesn't jibe with your ideas of what fandom is all about.  I'll try harder to fall in with the company line.  

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Huh?
Who said they were rooting for another team?

by JShell73 on Dec 5, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

in the original thread
I agree with him tho, if the ownership doesn't even love the team and is more worried about their own pockets, then neither will I (until they are gone).
I cannot stand being a fanatical for an egregiously average team. I am giving a two year grace period before we break up.

by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

My apologies
I must have missed that the first time through.

by JShell73 on Dec 5, 2007 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Geez guys.
I have to say that I am growing desperately tired of the ENTIRE Reyes thing.  I know he was a stud in the minors, and I know he threw a couple of good games when he came up.  Great.

But the fact remains that he has been a mostly-terrible major league pitcher since he came up.  He cannot work out of a jam.  He has no 3rd pitch since his slider flattened out.  And let's not forget that his velocity was way down for most of last year.  

Sooo, exactly how much trade value can Reyes hold right now?  According to the bulk of the readership here, a lot.  I will put this to you.  If a kid got straight A's in accounting in college and aces his CPA exam, he will probably get hired by any firm of his choice.  However, if he proves to be a terrible accountant in the real world, how many chances will PriceWaterhouseCoopers give the man?  

IMO, which counts for bupkus, why not trade him for a bag of chips, or a young, light-hitting shortstop prospect?  That way we can all get a fresh start, Reyes can get back to his performance of old, and you all can remind me of my comments here for years to come!

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 5, 2007 10:57 AM EST reply actions  

Chips
At least get baked Doritos; those are so good and so light.  

by Ray Lankford on Dec 5, 2007 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Reyes actually has 4 pitches...
Along w the 2 and 4 seam fastballs Reyes has an above average change and curve ball.

by BigMac545 on Dec 5, 2007 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

4 pitches
While he may have 4 pitches,I think we can ALL agree that his 2-seamer flat out sucks.  That has been the root of the argument by the VEB community to let him pitch off his 4-seamer.  We have also come into a pretty solid consensus that his curve is a great pitch FOR ME TO POOP ON!

No, seriously, he hangs a LOT of those curves.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 5, 2007 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Curveball is Kyle Lohse kinds
of awful.

If he could throw that effectively, it would hide alot of his problems.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah
i thought he had a slider that had slurvish tendencies. i guess it's a matter of semantics. either way, he seemed to have trouble controling it and/or missing bats with it

by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

it is certainly iffy
but I'd love to see him pitch (i.e. mostly HEAT) without Duncan in his head.  Which will, of course, have to be somewhere else... since La-Dunc seem to be becoming barnacles.

An odd thought: maybe Anthony could become an effective set-up man, or even closer.

His numbers ARE atrocious and his performance erratic, but I still like the guy.

by the Tewk on Dec 5, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

whew
I' ve been gone awhile and glad to see the "two-seam""four-seam" "Duncan-bad""Reyes-good" debate still lives on at VEB :)

Reyes hasn't been a good pitcher at the major league level. Again, if you look at the actual numbers it is situation oriented, not pitch selection oriented. He is great with no one on base/awful with them on base.

I like Anthony. I would like to see the Birds keep him because I dont feel any FA pitcher will outproduce him--especially at the cost. He needs to get better and I do think Duncan, etc. need to be more willing to work with him.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 5, 2007 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, to continue your analogy...
What if said accounting firm jerked him around continously and changed which project he was working on once a month for no good reason? If we give him 10 straight starts with the big club at the beginning of the season what's the worst that could happen, a repeat of last year's numbers? Let's at least try to get his trade value up if we want to move him, the only way his value can go down at this point is if his arm bursts into flames.

by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 5, 2007 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

....its a great
..time of the year to be a baseball fan, a tough time to be a blogsite considering the time of year it is, a terrible time to have everything the manager and pitching coach have run their mouths about in the press come back to haunt the teams building efforts and horrible time to be a poor team.

.....or, have the owner lead you to believe you are. It kinda makes no difference which point of view you choose, the team is'nt spending any real money and management shot us in the foot re: making trades with stupid comments about players in public. So I agree, keep'em and play ball!

Also agree that Moz needs to put a gag on TLR and Duncan if he hopes to change that for the future.

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 6, 2007 5:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Josh Fogg - Brad Thompson
why sign Josh Fogg when you can have Brad Thompson doing WHAT YOU WANT, THE WAY YOU WANT IT with the same results?

As long as Mo shows patience, I think we'll come out of this ok.  Hurrying up to sign Cezar Izsuckis worried me that Mo was making moves just to make moves. Not selling Rolen low and driving up the price on Reyes are good signs.

Be patient.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 11:26 AM EST reply actions  

Anyone have a list of players out of options?
The Reds were able to snag Brandon Phillips 2 years ago because he was out of options and the team had a glut at 2nd base.

What players should the Cardinals be targeting to maybe scoop up from a team with a blockage and backed into a corner?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 11:52 AM EST reply actions  

Cards inquiring about Glendon Rusch...
This according to MLB trade rumors. With apologies to Erik for having a long link (too busy at work to mess with formatting):

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/reds-astros-car.html

by airhad on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM EST reply actions  

Yeesh...
Why?

One good reason?

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

he was pretty good in 2004
so it plays right into hardcore legend's theory...
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Got a point...
All we have to do is find a time maching now.

This organization is a laughing stock right now.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Because Rusch absolutely
SHUTS DOWN the Cardinals whenever he pit--  er, wait, never mind.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 5, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Busy week at work
Is posting links a bad thing? I honestly haven't been keeping up with all the diary drama/minute-by-minute reports for the last few days.

I've noticed a couple of lines that say "With apologies to Erik..." Did I miss a post about not copying links into comments?

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 5, 2007 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is Chris Duncan our best trading chip?
Why does he have higher value than Rick Ankiel?  Ankiel plays better defense, has the same power and is quicker on the basepaths.  Why can't Rick Ankiel in a package bring the club back something of value.

If the team honest to goodness wants to improve for 2008, they need to move one of those OF and bring up Rasmus.  He solves so many problems (speed/defense in CF, leadoff hitter, power) that it's almost foolish not to bring him up.  Does he really need 2 months in Memphis to be an MLB competent baseball player?  Do we believe Edmonds/Ankiel will outproduce him in those 2 months?

Bring him up and slide Ankiel/Edmonds to RF (whichever player isn't traded).  Let him bat leadoff and keep Hal McRae away from him.

And as I said in the thread that was closed about the Hot Stove: If you can get LaRoche for Rolen, that deal you do.  Otherwise, just hold on to him.  LaRoche and Rasmus gives you a good core group of guys (ala Edmonds/Rolen) for the next 7 years.  Aim high, Mo.  You are trading a HOF caliber defensive player.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

OBP
Duncan is better at getting on base.  He's a far more patient hitter than Ankiel.  

Duncan is more of a known-quantity than Ankiel.  That's why Duncan has more value.

by lightbulb on Dec 5, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Ankiel / Rasmus
The only reason Duncan's trade value is higher is his MLB sample size, IMO.  The larger sample size makes him a safer bet, particularly given Rick's previous MLB meltdown.  Other than that, you are correct: Ankiel has more upside.

I've wondered about moving Rasmus up too -- I know we don't want to bring up a player who isn't ready, but is there any indication that he couldn't handle it?  Sure, his numbers will take a dive at first, but I don't know why he wouldn't improve after adjusting to the stiffer pitching.  

by Ray Lankford on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

ya too small of a
sample on ANk
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...
"Why does he have higher value than Rick Ankiel?  Ankiel plays better defense, has the same power and is quicker on the basepaths.  Why can't Rick Ankiel in a package bring the club back something of value."
  1.  He's more of a proven commodity.
  2.  He's shown a greater ability to get on base.
  3.  The big one.  He's paid in magic beans, and is under team control for 4 more years.  Ank is a FA after this year.
Duncan is more valuable in trade, although it's quite possible that Rick is the better player.
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

ankiel doesn't have the service time
to become a free agent after this year.  He'll be up for arbitration (in fact he may be this year) but I think he needs several more years till he hits the 6 year quota.

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Rick isn't a FA until 2010
Duncan might become a Super-Two in 2009.

Ankiel is much more atheletic than Duncan, don't get me wrong but Chris also presents us with a situation that if need be, he can become the everyday 1B should Pujols be injured.  His father is a coach on the team.  Everything points to him NOT being a biggest trading chip.

I would think that Mo would be actively shopping Rick Ankiel.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

but isn't Ankiel
the current emotional darling of many fans?  And for what it's worth, it would upset Jim Edmonds, who seems to have adopted Rick A as his mirror junior.

Would Mo really want to pull a move (trading Ankiel at this point) that would make even George Bush feel sorry for him?

by the Tewk on Dec 5, 2007 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

My mistake...
I remembered reading something during the season that made it out like he was going to be an FA if he were called up before such and such date...which he was.

Am I imagining all of this?  

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC it was service time related
Someone counted up how much service time he had and figured that if they waited until like September 8th to call him up (not certain about the date) they could keep him an extra year before having to pay him or something like that.  

I'd think he'd be at least arb eligible at this point, but maybe not...  the mlb rules are ridiculously arcane.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball writers vote to get out of bonus business
This is the best news I've heard all day. I always thought it was ridiculous that players lost bones money because the award voters were morons.

I mean, how many millions has Albert lost out on (from his next contract, if nothing else) because he only has one MVP. Or Molina, would he be making more if he had two Gold Gloves?

by sjoshi on Dec 5, 2007 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry to threadjack
Would've posted it as a diary but it didn't really seem worthy.

by sjoshi on Dec 5, 2007 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

schilling
i have a feeling his $1mm bonus for a single cy young vote and his comments (even joking) about a kickback had something to do with this.  

by birdsonthebat on Dec 5, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Well
Its a step in the right direction, but I'm shocked that Gold Glove isn't one of the "banned" awards.  While I do agree that Albert has gotten the shaft more than once in the MVP voting, it is utterly incomprehensible why Molina hasn't won a Gold Glove.  They are by far the biggest joke award in sports (except for maybe the Heismann).  For example, this year Russell Martin won the GOLD GLOVE, an award presumably given to the best fielder each year at each position.  Martin had 14 errors last season (most in the majors for a cather, if I'm not mistaken); Yadi had 6, and threw out an ungodly percent of attempted base-stealers (somebody help with the percent).

by Ray Lankford on Dec 5, 2007 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

While his percentage is good
The thing about Molina is that he's so good defensively most teams just don't try to steal period.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 5, 2007 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

ironically
one of the interesting arguments made for Martin winning the GG was that he threw out so many more runners- Yadi is TOO good at throwing out runners, so he contributes fewer "outs" to the team because people don't run on him.  Martin's CS% was good enough that the net benefit to his team of the other teams testing his arm was positive but not so high that people didn't test him.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Why shop either of them?
These guys are young and cheap. Don't they give you the flexibility to do more with the salary level currently in place?

After Edmonds and Rolen roll off the salary list, they can buy a FA shortstop/No. 2/3 pitcher. And if LaRussa can ever figure out how to get production out of 2B, that would be pretty potent lineup---even if Rolen's replacement is Inge.

Then you've also got some $$$ saved when Izzy retires, albeit somewhat offset by Albert's continuing salary increases.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

We've got $15 M to spend
right now.  You don't exactly see them spending it on premium talent, do you?  They wasted $3 M of it on Cezar the Great.

Something interesting about Inge: While he will make over $6 M the next few years, what is his versatility as far as MIF?  I know he can catch and play the OF.  Can he play SS?  He's got a cannon for an arm.  Couldn't the Cardinals try a swap (Reyes for Inge) with the Tigers and best case scenerio he starts at SS, worst case scenerio he starts at 3B?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Inge lowers Rolen's value
I would love Inge at SS if it were possible, but I doubt it.  He's mostly played corner outfield and was a former catcher.

I think the more salient point is that now Inge is on the market he really lowers Rolen's trade value.

by enoscountry on Dec 5, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

rolen's value
This is where a GM earns his paycheck though - talking to two teams at once to try to simultaneously fill one hole in the roster (say starting pitching) that may create a second hole (third base - swap a pitcher for rolen with team A).  While in negotiations with Team A, line up a deal to file the hole created.  This is where the creativity has to come into play.  While on coffee break from negotiations with team A, go find team B that has a 6 million dollar backup thirdbaseman and find a way to get him.  Fun stuff to think about - but I am glad that I am not the one trying to build a contender out of the 2008 Cards roster.  

by cdb on Dec 5, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

im sorry but
put me down as opposed to Inge being anything but a bench player.  the occasional pop just isn't worth all the rest of the baggage.  Strikes out too much, career OPS under .700, not a guy we can afford to carry unless the entire rest of the lineup gets made over - then we don't need him...
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 5, 2007 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Duncan really isn't a player that's particularly
important.  He's such a terrible fielder that after positional adjustments and defense, he's just not particularly elite.  If the team can convert him into someone at a premium defensive position or a pitcher, they should look to do so.

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Normally
I'd agree with you there.  But the crappy thing is that he's the Cardinals' 2nd best hitter right now, and it would be a big question mark as to how to replace that bat.  I guess they'd have to cross their fingers that Ankiel, Molina, or Ludwick (or some combo) could step up over a full season and replace the hole on offense.  

I think the thing about Dunc is that he's got a lot of value to a team needing offense at first or DH (Yankees, Twins, Angels come to mind off the top of my head).

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

If you're going to create a hole in your
offense, better it be at the left end of the defensive spectrum.  The A's plucked Jack Cust out of thin air last year.  Duncan's a good hitter but he's not necessarily that great of a player.

by azruavatar on Dec 6, 2007 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

The Rule 5 draft
With our bad record last year, I hope we take a chance on the Rule 5 draft coming up tomorrow.

I understand that with the teams we've had lately wasting a roster spot on iffy young talent wasn't a good option.  But a Josh Hamilton or Dan Uggla could really help this year.

Also note that the Rule 5 draft really advantages AL clubs since they are less likely to need their whole bench in a game.

by enoscountry on Dec 5, 2007 3:21 PM EST reply actions  

No room on 40-man?
I thought our 40-man roster was full?

by saladdays on Dec 5, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

to draft someone
we'd have to DFA someone off the 40-man.  Jimenez, Miles, and Taguchi are all potential candidates.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought so too
but Taguchi is still listed on the roster and we declined his option and gave him the $100k buyout.

So that puts us at 39 by my count.

Can some one help me here?

by enoscountry on Dec 5, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Marlins-Tigers Trade
I saw it on the ticker last night and thought, this is the kind of move that'll cycle the NL into superiority.

That's overstating it by a lot, but the Marlins picked up a tone of very good talent yesterday.

That the Tigers took Dontrelle Willis is amazing. He was lousy last season in a pitcher's park without facing the DH. He's in for some big trouble in 2008.

by liam on Dec 5, 2007 3:29 PM EST reply actions  

Probably not
I bet the Marlins don't sign any of those guys once it's time for them to be FA.  Maybe FL might be able to put a team together in the next couple years to win a WS and then not sign anyone.  All those guys will probably be traded back to the AL.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 5, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Free Agency...
That's six years from now, and even the Marlins can pull a couple of those "buy out 2 years of free agency by paying more during arb deals"

2 WS in 10 years.  The Marlins know how to rebuild.

They should be quite good in a couple of years.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

cats lose to fish
marlins 1, tigers 0 in that deal

by sportsman on Dec 5, 2007 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

How about a moratorium
on acquiring former Angels infielders?

At least for the next decade.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2007 3:57 PM EST reply actions  

LBoros--thanks for the shout out!
And I am fond of pointing out that Reyes has kept his mouth shut.  He's actually handled his difficult season in a way that makes me admire and respect him as a human.  If I ever get an opportunity to meet him myself, that's what I'd tell him.  Anyone else who would like to tell him that on my behalf, I thank you.

by jillsinmo on Dec 5, 2007 5:11 PM EST reply actions  

Oops...Red Baron, I mean.
Thanks for the shoutout...Doh, I was in a hurry to get to the office Christmas thing, and I always assume lboros is posting without ever looking at the damn thing. Sorry.

by jillsinmo on Dec 5, 2007 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/santanareyeshar.html

Too bad we don't have Haren anymore . . .

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2007 5:14 PM EST reply actions  

Umm
Is it me or do the Mets seem to win out on that potential trade?

by ICbirdfan on Dec 5, 2007 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Phew, I'll say
Although their overall excitement level would suffer :P
Cardinal fan in War Eagle land

by Mr Redbird on Dec 5, 2007 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Ohhh, good point.
Yeah, they'd lose about 15,000 watts of excitement.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

This is right up there with Mos Diary...
Check out the following . Absolutely hilarious.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 5, 2007 5:53 PM EST reply actions  

Tidbits from Strauss...
From his chat log today; in response to a trade question:
Prospects = trade leverage. Despite the locally produced spin, the ChatMeister(Strauss himself) has repeatedly told his audience that the Cardinals' minor-league well is very shallow. It's OK to draft predominantly college players. But it also doesn't matter if you believe your philosophy sound and your players great if other franchises don't see the same ceiling.

From his appearance on Bernie's radio show:
He talked to TLR today, and said "you might want to spend the 75 cents tomorrow(buy the paper)". One tease, and I'm paraphrasing here... La Russa says he doesn't care if Rolen likes him or not; he's under contract, and is expected to do his job.

He says there are a couple of names that the team is looking at(pitcher, impact bat), and  are "bigger" than expected in terms of previous interest.

"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 5, 2007 6:00 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks
I love the rumor stuff.  I love the scott vs. tony stuff.  Love it.  The offseason is so exciting.  I hope Mo learned how to wheel and deal from Walt.

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2007 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

"you might want to spend. . ."
Tony, you tease!
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2007 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

This
isn't anything new, but BP is reporting that "Milwaukee and St. Louis have the framework of a deal set in which the Brewers would get third baseman Scott Rolen from the Cardinals for left-hander Chris Capuano. What is holding the deal up is haggling over other players that might included in the trade, and also how much, if anything, St. Louis will pay of the $36 million left on the final three years on Rolen's contract."  

Same ole story, but this makes it seem like Perotto doesn't think a deal is dead.

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2007 7:01 PM EST reply actions  

I doubt that story
Because Strauss is on the scene and he has the best intel of any sportswriter about the Cards.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 5, 2007 7:40 PM EST reply actions  

Patience
is a virtue, folks.  Willing it to happen won't make it so.  Let's be virtuous here...
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 5, 2007 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Stark on XM
about 40 min ago said the cards who once felt they had to move rolen,now are thinking maybe we don't have to at all he's "trying to make sense of the mess" also said that the cards got the best offer from MIl but got cold feet and then the offer "blew up"
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 5, 2007 9:05 PM EST reply actions  

if we can keep him and hes
a 15 hr with 350 obp we win also on cards talk there has bee some rumors about fogg.. Please say no we have enough 4/5 starters thompson and welleymer reyes if he stays.Also to dfa players came up wille harris and cantu from there teams are either of these worth looking at???

by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 9:39 PM EST reply actions  

Why not?
Josh Fogg is the DRAGONSLAYER!!!  His mere presence on the mound defeats the other team's best pitchers.  He's got such GUTS!!!  And he's the damn DRAGONSLAYER!!!  As Keith Deuche Law once said, he's great if "GMs confuse baseball with World of Warcraft."

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Keith Law
I hadn't heard that, but damn it's a good line. Very funny.

by liam on Dec 5, 2007 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

It was on his Top 50 FA's list on ESPN.com
Sadly is now Insider content.  It was a shame, b/c it was a decent read.  It was Law in his typical snarky mood with nothing good to say about anybody.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

It's
not is...gosh I need to proofread.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

If you guys didn't already see...
... Strauss reported that Mozeliak has waved the white flag on the effort to bring in a top of the rotation starter:  "Hopes for acquiring a starting pitcher before week's end also took a hit as Mozeliak conceded the club will now adjust its sights to a No. 4 or No. 5 starter."

I was kind of skeptical about how they were going to do so anyways.  Without letting lose on prospects (and I'm glad they aren't), or shipping off Duncan (which TLR has apparently advocated against)... how else were they going to bring one in?  Free Agents?  I think whether Carlos Silva or Kyle Lohse represent top of the rotation pitchers is debatable.

On second thought, no it isn't.  They aren't top of the rotation starters either.

by AndyB83 on Dec 5, 2007 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Tonight he said
they are looking at Bedard.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

not without sending over some prospects we aren't.
... and it seems we aren't willing to part with the guys that it would take... which would most likely be a deal centered around colby rasmus.

by AndyB83 on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

More on TLR vs Scotty
So I'm driving home from KC.  Get close to STL and go to KTRS.  Around 7pm, they had Tony making a commment about Scott - how this is the most mystified and upset he has been in his entire career surrounding a player - and that Scotty has gotten everything from this organization.  He wasn't really extending an olive branch per se.

That got me thinking -  Anybody have any quotes from Scotty about this whole mess?  I wonder how much of this is media induced?

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Dec 5, 2007 9:54 PM EST reply actions  

LaRussa on Rolen
http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/archive/2007/12/05/rolen-has-to-go.aspx

I disagree with it be scathing.  If what Rolen believes what TLR says in those quotes is offensive, he must be living in the clouds.

LaRussa hits the nail on the head.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 9:58 PM EST reply actions  

best fit
tigers-marlins type deal for the cards that similarly helps both teams seems to me to lie with baltimore based on:

rolen, reyes, +? to orioles

bedard, tejada to the cards

this would be expensive (? would likely be both players and $), but save rasmus, who i agree should no be dealt, it seems to solve several problems for both teams.

by sportsman on Dec 5, 2007 10:23 PM EST reply actions  

That wouldn't be enough
in fact, if I was an Orioles fan I'd hope my GM would hang up the phone laughing
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah,
it'd have to be Rolen + Reyes + ? + ? + ? + ? for that to happen.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

That plus
would have to be some 3 person combo of Boggs, Herron, Ottavino, Anderson, Mather, Jay, Mortenson, Walters, the kitchen sink and an Albert Pujols-autographed bat or two w/ no Rasmus in there.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

TLR/Rolen
This recent LaRussa quote interests me.  I honestly don't know what to say at this point.  I would really like to hear from Rolen, to hear from his mouth what the problem is.  I've heard rumors about the way Paletta, et al, handled his injuries, I've heard that the Zimmermann Note that TLR sent him was less than kind, and of course we all know about his reluctance to tell LaRussa about the actual status of his shoulder in the playoffs in 06.  But those seem to just be the thoughts of those around the situation, not from the primary players.  This is certainly a sad situation.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:26 PM EST reply actions  

+1
i would like to hear from rolen as well.  everthing so far has shown scotty to be a whiner.  its hard for me to think of him that way.  i thought he was better than that.  i still don't like gordo's article on the situation though.

by FutureMan on Dec 5, 2007 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you....I haven't heard Rolen
say anything.  Actually, for me that's points in his favor.  Mr. DeWitt needs to step in and tell LaRussa to stop talking about it immediately.  Mozeliak needs to stop talking about it immediately.  Everyone in the organization needs to shut their mouths and work behind the scene to do whatever needs to be done.  

by jillsinmo on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Why do we all want to hear from Rolen?
Isn't it telling that we haven't heard from him?  What could Rolen have possibly done in the last week to further cause Tony's panties to bunch?  He hasn't said anything, at least not publicly.

I, for one, do not understand LaRussa's repeated insistence on cracking on Rolen in the media.  Is Tony that big of a media whore?  When he gets pulled over for drunk driving, he doesn't want to go near a camera and a mike but when he and Rolen don't get along he can't stay away!  

I don't know and I don't care who's to blame in the great Tony-Scott soap opera but it's almost certainly both of these very stubborn men.  Now, however, it's time for Tony to shut the fuck up!  His repeated criticisms are hurting Rolen's trade value -- as it's now apparent that Tony doesn't want Rolen playing here, but it's also making Rolen look like the good guy in all of this.  No wonder Rolen doesn't want to play here anymore.  His manager insists, on an almost weekly basis, on finding the nearest microphone and ripping him for NO REASON WHATSOEVER.  Shut up, Tony.  When you have something worthwhile to say, say it.  Until then go feed the dogs or do your community service.

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2007 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell us how you really feel...
In seriousness though, how often did LaRussa rip Rolen during the season when he was batting .230-ish?

It wasn't until Rolen demanded his way out of St. Louis that LaRussa started going more public with things.  Rolen wants out but doesn't want to talk to the Tony or Mo about it.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a huge difference here
enormous!  Anything Rolen has said has been said privately to the Cards' organization.  If he, indeed, told the Cards' organization he wanted to be traded, he did so privately and not by running Tony down in the media.

Tony has routinely now called out Rolen publicly.  Why?  What purpose does that serve?  It hurts his trade value b/c the more rancor other GM's see, the more they recognize that this is an untenable situation.  Tony's actions re: Rolen have been classless and detrimental to the organization -- if only b/c it means that the Cards will receive less, or have to pay more of Rolen's salary, when he's traded.

DeWitt needs to call Tony (if Tony isn't DeWitt's boss) and tell him to shut the fuck up!  Tony's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy out of line here.  Once was understandable -- maybe.  But now this is at least the 3rd time Rolen has been publicly called out by LaRussa since the season without any provocation from Rolen whatsoever.  

Besides which, I didn't hear Tony rip Adam Kennedy for being one of the worst players in baseball last year.  In fact, he's said positive things about him -- as he should -- whether it's true or not.  I don't see why Tony gets points here by people for being honest (not that I'm conceding that he's being honest).  But if he is, it doesn't matter if Rolen's a whiny whatever.  STFU, Tony and grow the fuck up also!

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2007 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to add
Rolen has handled this whole dispute with nothing but class.  Maybe he wants out of St. Louis -- if he didn't before, I bet he does now.  I sure would.  But he's been silent publicly, perhaps working behind the scenes to facilitate a trade but NEVER, not 1 time, coming out publicly and demanding a trade or ripping Tony or anyone else in the organization.  

Rolen deserves better than the way he's being treated here and, frankly, the organization deserves better than what LaRussa's doing to it right now.  Somebody needs to shut him up or send him packing -- new contract or no!

by chuckb on Dec 5, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm starting to think
Tony may be writing his ticket out of St. Louis.

I don't think DeWitt is going to like all of this being played out in the media. We saw what happened to Walt, and this is getting A LOT more media coverage.

It actually wouldn't suprise me if Tony isn't the manager come spring training if this thing blows up even more.

by KYCards on Dec 5, 2007 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

how is it classy to sit in the corner
of the clubhouse with some other players & talk about how you hate Tony? because according to jim hayes that just what scotty does game after game after game.

i dont have a problem with what Tony had to say. the only reason Tony felt the need to speak out was scotty through his agents & friends has demanded a trade & told the Cards he wont play for them. and when MO or Tony tries to call him & talk to him, scotty wont take their calls.

listen i'm as sick of the needless bullshit drama as the rest of us. its needs to stop, & it needed to stop 5 years ago. both scotty & tony have gigantic ego's & thats why this is still a problem. neither one will admit they are wrong. and trust me, BOTH ARE WRONG

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2007 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't even know who Jim Hayes is
but, if this is true, why have we never read about it in the p-d?  Are the writers at the p-d so out of the loop that they don't know of this?

And even if what Tony said was true, it doesn't excuse his saying it, repeatedly, in the papers.  He's hurting the team by doing so and for that, I've lost a lot of respect for LaRussa.  He used to put the team first.  Here, he's putting the stroking of his own ego first.

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

the writers in the p-d
have something of a vendetta against la russa.  There's a very good chance they just aren't reporting it to make TLR look like the aggressor here.

I think they're both pansies who need to suck it up and play baseball.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Provication
demanding a trade and refusing to meet with anyone to discuss it.  Rolen won't come down off the ledge.  He wants out and for what?  For making $34 M over the last 3 seasons and playing a grand total of 310 games?  You just made $110k per game, Scott.  Get over it.  It's not like LaRussa WANTS you to fail.

And the Adam Kennedy analogy is bunk.  It's not like LaRussa called out Rolen during the season for playing poorly.  It's not like he bad mouthed him in 06 when he was one of the worst everyday hitters in baseball the final month of the season.

For your analogy to work, Adam Kennedy would have had to play terrible (he did), end the season with surgery (he did) and then demand to be traded without ever talking to the manager he is feuding with.

And again, Rolen hasn't publicly discussed it, rather he has let out information via 'people close to Rolen'.  It's a good way of getting what you want to say out there but appear to take the high road.

Then refuse to meet with the person you supposedly are at odds with.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I stiIl don't get it
If Rolen is being a baby in private why does Tony need to speak to the papers.

So Rolen crys to his friends. So he says Tony isn't in his 5 any more. So he calls up everyone who is in the front office and says he wants out. Why does that justify Tony throwing him under the bus in the press?

If Rolen wont meet with tony then that's Rolens problem. End of subject. All Tony has to say is Rolen knows where Tony's office is and if there is a problem talk to him there. If he doesn't meet with him there then there isn't a problem.

All I hear is Tony acting like a 7 year old girl. A real leader would talk shit to the media. He wouldn't know matter what you say.

I don't know if Rolen is an Ass. He might be but I haven't heard anything from him and until I do it's just girls gossiping.

by Harknights on Dec 6, 2007 1:29 AM EST up reply actions  

You're the one who brought up Tony's
remarkable restraint when it came to not knocking Rolen for hitting .230.  He shouldn't have.  

But, once again, even if what LaRussa said was true, he's hurting the team by repeatedly beating up Rolen in the media.  It's classless and detrimental to the team.  Is Tony's ego that fragile that he needs to continually stroke it, even if it means hurting the team?

by chuckb on Dec 6, 2007 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know the specifics
But I do know that ML managers have microphones stuck in their faces about the last shit they took every time they appear in public.  I doubt that TLR went out and found a microphone and said "Rolen is a cockfaced dickbag."  

IIRC, when LaRussa was resigned he was asked about Rolen and talked about how he was planning to reach out to him and try to work all of this out.  So I don't know, maybe they got in a boxing match in the interim.  I really don't care, I'd just like to know what is actually going on.  Its really none of my business, but damn it I'm still curious!

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

more larussa on rolen
i cannot find a way to link to it directly. but there's a video of larussa talking to some mlb reporters. he talks about rolen again and says that he's the only one who has consistently voted down trading rolen.

larussa the lawyer. i imagine he's telling the truth, but it sure seems like he's doing so for appearance only.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/winter_meetings/y2007/archive.jsp?day=3 down under the subheading "Mayo on Miller, Maybin," near the bottom of the page.

by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 PM EST reply actions  

Good
because if Tony honestly wants Rolen to stay, I really do too. I can see Rolen putting up solid numbers last year, and while maybe not fully justifying his contract, making it really not too bad.

We should just focus on Reyes for now, because he's a player that CANNOT be used in this system. We still have use for Rolen, but Reyes just isn't going to work out.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 5, 2007 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

larussa wants him gone?
it didn't come off that way to me.  in two places, the article and the rotoworld thing to the left, they have interpreted tony's comments as being the driver of the get rolen off my team bus.  that leaves me wondering about the "media" involvement in this matter.

and that's twice that the rotoworld thing has put in  unprofessional bias toward the news it reports.  the writer better be a cards fan or he deserves a kick to the face.

by FutureMan on Dec 5, 2007 10:39 PM EST reply actions  

he's a cub's fan-
kick him in the jimmy!
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and I went the whole day without saying it
but darn it, I'm a child:

The Shortest Thing You'll Ever Get From Me
-That's not what SHE said!

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 10:49 PM EST reply actions  

I too...
have struggled against the very same urge!

by cardzfanbub on Dec 5, 2007 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

said this before
rolen healthy and staying in st louis is like getting a right handed bat I would still like one but everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax Tony needs to talk to rolen and work it out if not trade him but quite talking about it to the damm media and driving down his trade value even more than it is..Still need pitching at least one not Josh the drangonslayer either

by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 10:52 PM EST reply actions  

I agree and Quentin
I was one of those who was wanting Quentin in a big bad way.  I thought it was definitely a high risk/high reward type of move.

I DID NOT want TLR/Duncan back.  Need to go in a diff direction.  And I was in favor of moving Chris Duncan to help pitching if we got Quentin.

I am not all at happy with recent turn of events.  

by DenverCardsFan on Dec 5, 2007 11:19 PM EST reply actions  

Bedard
on xm earlier stark said the price on him was higher than for santana...so good luck
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 6, 2007 12:03 AM EST reply actions  

Let me just say this and then..
whoever wants to can bang away at my thoughts. Tony did what you want a manager to do. He is taking control of his team. How many people have worked with that guy who is a prema donna and gets everything he wants just because he is talented. I admit that to a point you give that guy some leway. But Rolen from what I have heard is delusional. Tony is right. We need a healthy Rolen. If we can't get true value for him why would we accomadate him just to make our team weaker? All Tony did was call him out and how many people, including Bernie, gave him crap for not doing that during the season. Isn't Tony just doing what we said he should? He is a manager and he is doing his job. If you disagree please tell me why.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 6, 2007 12:26 AM EST reply actions  

Because
He doesn't need to do it in front of everyone.

I can't stand when a supervisor blows up an employee in front of people.

Same here...and for that matter unless I missed it. Rolen hasn't come out in public and bitched.

Sure Rolen may be a spoiled ass, but Tony has to rise above that childish act and manage him. What I read today comes off like one ass not liking another ass.

by Harknights on Dec 6, 2007 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree completely
Tony is definitely NOT doing what we want him to do.    

First of all, if anyone thinks Tony has to "do something" to take control of his team, then they haven't been paying very close attention the past 12 years.  Tony is NOTHING if not domineering and controlling, and I guarantee you that EVERYONE in that clubhouse knows who's in charge...and it ain't Scott Rolen.

Secondly, running one of your players down in the media is NOT how you bring this situation to an amicable resolution.  In fact, it's incredibly unprofessional no matter how you try to justify it.  You can certainly argue that Rolen may be a prima donna of sorts, but if so then you have to also admit that Tony is Grand Master of Mind Games.  Unfortunately, his repeated attempts to use them to manipulate Rolen into the docile/controlled player he keeps hoping for have apparently all backfired, and they continue to fail.

The only thing this latest round of Tony's Media Mayhem is going to do, as everyone else has noted, is 1) ratchet up the drama even more, 2) INCREASE tension in the clubhouse, 3) lower Rolen's trade value, and 4) further reduce any likelihood of reconciliation.  Burning bridges and costing the team potential money and prospects is not really my idea of a "laudable" approach.

How is repeatedly demonizing one of your players in public supposed to be a positive?  For anyone?  I suppose if all Tony cares about is making an EXAMPLE out of Rolen as he runs Scotty out of town in exchange for a bag of balls and a tub of MLB Rubbin' Dirt, then I suppose Tony's bizarre behavior may further cow the rookies into submission in what's left of his clubhouse.  However, that is hardly the approach most experts at interpersonal communications or relationship management would advocate.

And don't believe for a moment that I feel Rolen is guiltless in all of this.  He and Tony are BOTH culpable.  However, trying to spin this latest embarrassment as some sort of positive for Tony is, personally, quite baffling.  Running your players down publicly is pretty much exactly how NOT to handle this type of situation.  

In my personal opinion, Mozeliak, DeWitt, or Lamping needs to step in and put a stop to this nonsense.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 6, 2007 2:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you most of the way,
but I'm wary about assuming that Rolen's trade value is diminished by this.  It's diminished by his health history and the strong possibility that he'll never be the 30-hr guy he once was.
Intra-team feuds, however, occur on every team and every GM has experience with them.  If I'm a GM I am looking at Rolen for his expected performance and the soap opera stuff is just background noise that means more to the fans and media than it does to me.  

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 8:50 AM EST up reply actions  

New stuff
from Strauss and Leach.  Links at mlbtraderumors.

Cards in on Rowand, Colon.  

by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 1:50 AM EST reply actions  

please
do not let us sign rowand...  he is such a failure waiting to happen...  colon is alright except he wants a multiyear deal.  

by FutureMan on Dec 6, 2007 2:55 AM EST reply actions  

Rowand
He wants like $14 mill per year.  The cards will not deal with him.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

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