The Shortest Thing You'll Ever Get From Me.
Please forgive the abbreviated post this morning. I've got a ton of stuff I have to try and get done today; I just don't have the time to type up the Iliad as I usually do each and every Wednesday.
The Winter Meetings are in full swing; rumours flying madly back and forth. My take on some of the recent developments:
The Marlins made out like bandits in the Cabrera/Willis deal. I know that Miguel Cabrera is a hell of a hitter, but personally, I think his weight issues and his defensive shortcomings are going to push him to 1b/DH sooner rather than later. I know, it won't be a problem for Detroit, seeing as how they're in the AL, but he's going to get a monster payday to sit on the bench, eat malomars, and come to the plate four times a night. Hopefully, the Tigers' staff can come up with something to help out Dontrelle Willis and make him a really good pitcher again, but I have my doubts. As things stand right now, I think Andrew Miller has a very good chance of being a better pitcher than the DTrain over the next 3-5 years, so I consider those two a straight deal. That means the Tigers gave up five prospects, including one of the top five prospects in the entire game, (Maybin) for the right to pay Miguel Cabrera 18 million dollars a year to hit. Again, I know Cabrera is a transcendent hitter, but, on balance, I would take Maybin every time. Guys with his offensive ceiling who play premium defensive positions are too rare. I'm sure this move makes the Tigers better in the short term, but I have the distinct feeling that we've just seen a team trade away far more than what they're getting back.
The whole Santana thing is looking as if it may end up going down the same way, to me. According to a ton of different sources, (I would post a link, but there are so many stories about it, I don't even know which one is the best to start with) the Yankees have mostly fallen out of the race for Johan's services. The California teams that didn't get Cabrera, especially the Angels, now appear to be the only real competition with the Red Sox to try and get a deal done with the Twins. It looks as if the Twins are trying to get Boston to include both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester in the deal, and the Sawx are sticking to their guns of not offering both in the same package. I hope the Twins win on this one; if they manage to pry Lester, Ellsbury, and a guy like Jed Lowrie away in return for Santana, it would be an absolute masterstroke of trading acumen by their new GM. I'm not sure what kind of package the Angels would offer, but I'm sure a guy like Brandon Wood would be included. Something along the lines of Wood, Nick Adenhart, and Howie Kendrick would be very attractive, although I'm not sure if the Angels would part with both Wood and Kendrick in the same deal. Even with the ridiculous MI depth they have in their system, that would put a serious strain on the resources. As far as the Dodgers, they balked at the package the Twins wanted earlier in the winter; I don't see them as willing to part with what it would take to get the deal done. If I were the Twins, I would hold out for the Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie package; if you don't get it now, wait until July, when teams start getting desperate to get back into a race. That's when you'll really get the stupid offers.
Why in the hell wouldn't you offer David Eckstein arbitration? You can't possibly be that afraid he'll accept. Eck back on a one year deal isn't at all a terrible outcome, and you get the draft pick otherwise. As it is now, you get nothing. That's an absolute failure to properly assess a situation. Mo hasn't done the things I was most afraid of, and yet he's still finding ways to shake my faith in him already. Patience. Rome wasn't built in a day.
And our own dear boys, Scotty Baseball and Anthony Reyes. Apparently, both of these players are proving harder to move than what was originally anticipated by Mr. Mozeliak and company. I'm glad Rolen didn't get moved to Milwaukee; I don't think the parameters of the deal were great for the Cardinals. The Dodgers are certainly an intriguing option, I've heard that something along the lines of Andy LaRoche and Scott Elbert might be doable. If that's the case, I would be pretty happy, as long as the Cards weren't on the hook for a ton of Rolen's salary. Both are great prospects; the Dodgers seem a little down on LaRoche, although I have no idea why, and Elbert's a hometown guy. (Seneca, MO, I believe) It would be nice to have a young, talented lefty in the system who hails from right in the team's backyard. Any package with less value than that one, to me, isn't worth considering. Scott Rolen is still one of the top third baseman in the game, and if you're not going to get top value out of him, hold on to him. Try to move him later. (I'm picking up a pattern here in my opinions as to trading star players.)
As for Anthony, it's going to be tough to get anything decent for him at the moment. He pitched atrociously last year, and the team has severely hurt his value by being so public with their negativity toward him. If you want to trade a player, it's much better if other teams think you at least sort of still believe in him. When you come out and say there's really no place for him on your team, it tends to drive down the kid's value. Chalk up another big red W for the Tony LaRussa public relations extravaganza.
I've heard some talk about moving Reyes for Cliff Lee. I have mixed feelings about this, tending toward negative. I actually like Lee, and I think he's a much better pitcher than what he showed last year. However, his attitude has been sorely questioned in the past, and he's much more expensive than Reyes. At least with Anthony, as Jill is fond of pointing out, he's kept his mouth shut and been a good soldier, regardless of how much crap has been heaped on him. So I think I'll pass on Lee. Now, if the Cards could pry Jeremy Sowers away from Cleveland, that's a different story...
If the Cards trade Reyes for Jack Cassell, or his equivalent, I may find another team to root for until some real changes are made in the team's management. I hate to sound over the top, and I'm sure it doesn't seem like much to those who dislike Reyes, but if you're going to move a kid who still has a lot of promise for basically a worse, albeit grounder generating, version of his underachieving self, the team isn't really going anywhere. Either get some real value for Anthony or give him a chance to prove he's worth something. 2008 isn't looking so hot anyway.
Oh, also, one of my favourite trade targets was moved. Carlos Quentin was traded by the DBacks. I'm really disappointed the Cards didn't make a play for him. I think he really would have been a good addition to the outfield, and it would have freed up Duncan to be moved for a young gun.
Which brings me to my last point. I'm hearing that the Cardinals aren't wanting to move Duncan. I can understand that, there are a ton of great reasons to keep him. But he may be your one really great bullet to bring in a future impact starter or MI prospect; if the Cards are putting him off limits because of Tony and Dave, that's just one more reason on a very long list I have as to why it was a bad idea to bring back LaRussa. Don't get me wrong, I would have to really be excited by an offer to move Chris, but so far it looks as if the guys on the trading block are guys that either want to get away from Tony or Tony wants gone, while possibly the best trading chip the team has looks to be off limits because the manager likes him. I'm afraid that as long as LaRussa is here, Mozeliak, (or anyone else) is going to really be handcuffed as far as the moves they can make to improve the team, since it all has to pass through the filter of, "Would this work with LaRussa and Duncan?" I really am trying to keep an open mind about this whole process, but I have to admit to being disappointed by some of the things I'm hearing so far. Hopefully, I'm just overreacting.
Also hopefully, since I put up this short, hasty thread, something big will happen today and we'll have something of substance to discuss. Here's to hoping.
I should have my draft overview ready for next week; I just didn't have the time this morning. Have a nice day everyone.
178 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
While I agree with you
by vinniefromjersey on Dec 5, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions
I was reading over at USSMariner
The actual exposure the team had was 1/6th of whatever they projected his potential arbitration award to be, thanks to a clause in the CBA that allows teams to release players prior to March 15th and only be liable for 16% of the salary they were given in arbitration. So, if the M's thought Guillen would accept abritration and they really didn't want him back, they could simply release him by paying him something around $2 million to just go away. That's their real exposure.
Which makes me think that not offering Eckstein was an even worse idea. At most this team would be responsible for about 1.25M if he accepted arbitration and they didn't want him. First of all, I'd contend that a top 100 draft pick is probably worth that kind of a wager and secondly I'd reiterate that while he hasn't seemed to generate much interest yet, it doesn't seem likely he'd already be willing to settle for a 1 year deal. They should have offered Eckstein arbitration.
If the plan is to release him anyway...
underhanded? unethical?
and as far as this being sneaky/unethical on the cards' part, it's just playing by the rules. this sort of thing was obviously considered and planned for; otherwise, rules and procedures for it wouldn't be included in the cba. this is no more unethical a move than the yankees outspending everyone by $80 million - just the rules of the game.
it's unethical because
by march, most teams will have addressed their needs and spent their budgets, leaving eckstein with no leverage. he'd still find a job, but would have to accept a crappy salary and probably a limited role with his new team.
if you screwed a player over like that, the players and agents won't trust you. good luck signing the next free agent you're interested in.
All the more reason...
If I understand correctly with him being a type B free agent we don't actually get another team's pick; just a supplemental pick. ITTC offering arbitration wouldn't have effected his value to another team.
Agreed.
Trading a player you just signed
As far as dumping Eck in March, he accepts that risk by taking arbitration. It's a game of cat and mouse.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
if you had your choice of 30 potential employers
a team that behaved this way would have a difficult time signing new talent and keeping their own talent.
money talks
If an organization has a history of 'flipping' players who take arbitration, that'll only matter until they submit that highest bid on the free agent's contract.
Let's look at the Eckstein situation:
- Cardinals offers Eckstein a 2 year deal
- Eckstein tests the market for 4 year deal
- Cardinals offer aribtration
That's the inherent danger of becoming a free agent. If he accepts the arbitration, he's already taking the safest route possible to return to a team. And he makes money either way.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
yes money talks --- and a player loses money
an agent who feels a gm has dicked him around and cost him money will avoid doing business with that gm again.
name three
by baw on Dec 6, 2007 2:53 AM EST up reply actions
Today on KTRS
Thank you
not unethical
the missing element
arbitration aside, what was the basic resolution to the move-Eck-to-2b possibility?
Surely this was considered. Was the resolution.... a) Eckstein rejected the idea; b) LaRussa et al felt he would not be any better defensively at 2b than he is at SS; was it the annoying and ludicrous "fact" that since Kennedy was guaranteed his salary for two more years we are "stuck" with HIM at 2b; or d) other.
Is there any examples
That offer
If Rolen really hates it that much in St. Louis, Mo should be up front with him and say: play your ass off for the first half of 2008 and we will move you at the deadline. Let him know that the Cards are willing to help him out and send him elsewhere, but the team is not going to take a bath in his contract and hurt the future of the club to do so. Play well and you will help us help you. Still seems like the best move to me.
hopefully
by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
I also wonder why arbitration wasn't offered to Eck. I understand the fact that players have a week to decide whether or not to accept and, as is the case this year, the deadline falls past the winter meetings. But since our big signing so far has been Izturis, I have a feeling he still would have been available after Dec. 8.
I loathed the idea of trading Scotty to the Brewers. I am fairly confident that one would have come back to bite us on the butt. Personally, I think we will see Mr. Rolen start the season wearing Birds on Bat across his chest, but this situation has inspired lots of drama, drama, drama across Cardinal Nation.
P.S. - Looking forward to next week's draft overview.
Supposedly
And, baron, I couldn't disagree more with the idea that, given the choice between Maybin and Cabrera, you'd take Maybin every time, presumably straight up. You say that "Guys with [Maybin's] offensive ceiling who play premium defensive positions are too rare." I can assure you that guys like Maybin -- extremely highly touted five-tool prospects -- flame out far more frequently than guys like Cabrera (one of the top 5 best hitters in the majors for years now), regardless of where he fits on the defensive spectrum.
Per Crazy Guillen
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
more importantly
ever seen supersize me? it's amazing how bad fast food is for you.
by birdsonthebat on Dec 5, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, guys
But I think the Tiggers made a good deal too. Unlike the Marlins, much of their talent is either old (Rogers, Ordonez, Sheff, I-Rod, etc.) or in their prime (Granderson, etc.), so it makes sense for them to sacrifice their future for some major-league-ready talent.
I've noticed these kinda deals happening more often in the last year or two. The negative spin is that the GMs have given way to groupthink. The positive spin is that GMs are getting better and better at valuing talent and putting it in context of their teams' needs, and that this kind of intelligence is saturating the market. Good thing to keep in mind when we consider Mo's moves. I hate to say it, but no more Jocketty-type fleecing for guys like McGwire, Edmonds, etc.
Fleecing
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
When
It's entirely possible
Weight
Believe it or not
Just for the record.
Brian
What I basically meant was more in relation to the type of player that each are. I'm probably not giving enough credence weight to Maybin's chances of flaming out, and I really mean more, "the player that I, and most others, expect Cameron Maybin to be." If Maybin ends up being as good as most scouts and everybody else see him being, I think he's more valuable than Cabrera. There are a ton of great bat, no glove guys you can get to DH and mash for you. Admittedly, there aren't many in Cabrera's class, but I just don't like one dimensional players.
It's sort of like the Molina vs. Bryan Anderson argument. There are certain things that Molina does incredibly well, yes, but when you can plug in great offense at a position where you don't ordinarily expect to get a whole lot of it, it has a huge impact on the team's overall ability to score runs, in relation to the rest of the league.
You are right, though, there is a certain amount of risk inherent with a player like Maybin, who still has to prove that he's going to put out production to match his prodigious potential. (I'm Spiro Agnew all of a sudden.) I stated my case in somewhat inaccurate terms.
By the way, Brian, you need to stop by here more often. We don't see enough of you anymore.
by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
more rolen stuff
gordon takes some shots at scotty here,
sorry about the long link eric, its too early & the interwebs are hard.
one question, will this needless drama ever end?
quick soap digest
I didn't hear anything concrete about conflict during 2007, only that TLR sent a condescending letter to Rolen telling him what he needed to do to get back in good standing. How'd Tony get the idea that that'd work? Or was he trying to force Rolen into a trade-demand situation?
So here we have warm & fuzzy Jeff Gordon calling Rolen a whiner and malcontent. Gordon is a company Kool-Aid drinker, but he's usually pretty soft on gritty players until they've actually done something wrong.
What'd I miss?
by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 5, 2007 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, and as for trades
by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 5, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Does he...
Remember Tony is the manager and Bowa is just the 3B coach.
Much easier to just stay away from Bowa than Tony.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Some
Oh well this type of stuff happens a lot I guess. I don't like talking about it since it is always hard to tell what is truly going on since Tony and Scott don't go into a lot of detail about things.
One can only hope
heartily agree
If Gordon's snide phraseology is based on something, the evidence went past me.
To echo other posters...what did I miss?
Did Jeff Gordon actually write this:
Calling Pedro Feliz a "decent hitter" really causes me to question Gordon's intelligence. How long has this guy been covering sports? Is he for real???
Nevermind the fact
at least he recognizes
Use the force, mo! And have patience. But hurry up and do something.
Pulitzer...
You bloggers deserve a great deal of credit - and full-time paid writing gigs.
gordo is a bozo
He should be writing the chef's daily specials on a chalkboard somewhere, not published sports "commentary."
agree with you both
Agreed
Reyes and Rolen
Scott Rolen for LaRoche/Elbert trade is one I would be happy with. I would want to see Elbert medical records. Just like the Dodgers will want to see Rolen's.
I really don't think Mo wants to trade Rolen, but Reyes I thought was out. I was hoping they could get an MI prospect or two.
+1
makes me think of days of thunder. anyone?
by birdsonthebat on Dec 5, 2007 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Fairly or unfairly,
I think the VEB community
we need at least one
by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions
Are you kidding?
I understand trying to get what Rolen is worth but come on. You expect the Yanks to pick up salary and give up two young pitchers? I'm betting all he heard was a dialtone after that.
It's not like teams don't read the newspapers. They know why we want to trade him.
sources
by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Read the link above
definitely remember them asking
My comment
of course they asked
Rooting for another team
Nope.
I love the members of my family, but if I can't stand the way one of them is choosing to live their life, then I don't have to associate with them. It doesn't mean I've stopped caring, but I can't be a party to their choices.
What do you think you should do? Blindly love the team, just because of who they are, regardless of how you feel about the way they're conducting business? If you think that blind loyalty is required just because you care about something, then I don't really know what else to say to you.
I care about the Cardinals, but the way that certain things are being handled really bothers me. I'm sorry if that doesn't jibe with your ideas of what fandom is all about. I'll try harder to fall in with the company line.
by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 8:16 AM EST up reply actions
Huh?
in the original thread
by stlknows on Dec 5, 2007 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
My apologies
Geez guys.
But the fact remains that he has been a mostly-terrible major league pitcher since he came up. He cannot work out of a jam. He has no 3rd pitch since his slider flattened out. And let's not forget that his velocity was way down for most of last year.
Sooo, exactly how much trade value can Reyes hold right now? According to the bulk of the readership here, a lot. I will put this to you. If a kid got straight A's in accounting in college and aces his CPA exam, he will probably get hired by any firm of his choice. However, if he proves to be a terrible accountant in the real world, how many chances will PriceWaterhouseCoopers give the man?
IMO, which counts for bupkus, why not trade him for a bag of chips, or a young, light-hitting shortstop prospect? That way we can all get a fresh start, Reyes can get back to his performance of old, and you all can remind me of my comments here for years to come!
Chips
by Ray Lankford on Dec 5, 2007 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Reyes actually has 4 pitches...
4 pitches
No, seriously, he hangs a LOT of those curves.
Curveball is Kyle Lohse kinds
If he could throw that effectively, it would hide alot of his problems.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
it is certainly iffy
An odd thought: maybe Anthony could become an effective set-up man, or even closer.
His numbers ARE atrocious and his performance erratic, but I still like the guy.
whew
Reyes hasn't been a good pitcher at the major league level. Again, if you look at the actual numbers it is situation oriented, not pitch selection oriented. He is great with no one on base/awful with them on base.
I like Anthony. I would like to see the Birds keep him because I dont feel any FA pitcher will outproduce him--especially at the cost. He needs to get better and I do think Duncan, etc. need to be more willing to work with him.
Well, to continue your analogy...
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 5, 2007 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
....its a great
.....or, have the owner lead you to believe you are. It kinda makes no difference which point of view you choose, the team is'nt spending any real money and management shot us in the foot re: making trades with stupid comments about players in public. So I agree, keep'em and play ball!
Also agree that Moz needs to put a gag on TLR and Duncan if he hopes to change that for the future.
by cardschinmusic on Dec 6, 2007 5:15 AM EST up reply actions
Josh Fogg - Brad Thompson
As long as Mo shows patience, I think we'll come out of this ok. Hurrying up to sign Cezar Izsuckis worried me that Mo was making moves just to make moves. Not selling Rolen low and driving up the price on Reyes are good signs.
Be patient.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 11:26 AM EST reply actions
Anyone have a list of players out of options?
What players should the Cardinals be targeting to maybe scoop up from a team with a blockage and backed into a corner?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 11:52 AM EST reply actions
Cards inquiring about Glendon Rusch...
Yeesh...
One good reason?
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
he was pretty good in 2004
Got a point...
This organization is a laughing stock right now.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Because Rusch absolutely
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 5, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Busy week at work
I've noticed a couple of lines that say "With apologies to Erik..." Did I miss a post about not copying links into comments?
Why is Chris Duncan our best trading chip?
If the team honest to goodness wants to improve for 2008, they need to move one of those OF and bring up Rasmus. He solves so many problems (speed/defense in CF, leadoff hitter, power) that it's almost foolish not to bring him up. Does he really need 2 months in Memphis to be an MLB competent baseball player? Do we believe Edmonds/Ankiel will outproduce him in those 2 months?
Bring him up and slide Ankiel/Edmonds to RF (whichever player isn't traded). Let him bat leadoff and keep Hal McRae away from him.
And as I said in the thread that was closed about the Hot Stove: If you can get LaRoche for Rolen, that deal you do. Otherwise, just hold on to him. LaRoche and Rasmus gives you a good core group of guys (ala Edmonds/Rolen) for the next 7 years. Aim high, Mo. You are trading a HOF caliber defensive player.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 12:17 PM EST reply actions
Ankiel / Rasmus
I've wondered about moving Rasmus up too -- I know we don't want to bring up a player who isn't ready, but is there any indication that he couldn't handle it? Sure, his numbers will take a dive at first, but I don't know why he wouldn't improve after adjusting to the stiffer pitching.
by Ray Lankford on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
ya too small of a
Well...
- He's more of a proven commodity.
- He's shown a greater ability to get on base.
- The big one. He's paid in magic beans, and is under team control for 4 more years. Ank is a FA after this year.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
ankiel doesn't have the service time
Rick isn't a FA until 2010
Ankiel is much more atheletic than Duncan, don't get me wrong but Chris also presents us with a situation that if need be, he can become the everyday 1B should Pujols be injured. His father is a coach on the team. Everything points to him NOT being a biggest trading chip.
I would think that Mo would be actively shopping Rick Ankiel.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
but isn't Ankiel
Would Mo really want to pull a move (trading Ankiel at this point) that would make even George Bush feel sorry for him?
My mistake...
Am I imagining all of this?
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
IIRC it was service time related
I'd think he'd be at least arb eligible at this point, but maybe not... the mlb rules are ridiculously arcane.
Baseball writers vote to get out of bonus business
I mean, how many millions has Albert lost out on (from his next contract, if nothing else) because he only has one MVP. Or Molina, would he be making more if he had two Gold Gloves?
by sjoshi on Dec 5, 2007 1:09 PM EST reply actions
Sorry to threadjack
by sjoshi on Dec 5, 2007 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
schilling
by birdsonthebat on Dec 5, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Well
While his percentage is good
ironically
Why shop either of them?
After Edmonds and Rolen roll off the salary list, they can buy a FA shortstop/No. 2/3 pitcher. And if LaRussa can ever figure out how to get production out of 2B, that would be pretty potent lineup---even if Rolen's replacement is Inge.
Then you've also got some $$$ saved when Izzy retires, albeit somewhat offset by Albert's continuing salary increases.
We've got $15 M to spend
Something interesting about Inge: While he will make over $6 M the next few years, what is his versatility as far as MIF? I know he can catch and play the OF. Can he play SS? He's got a cannon for an arm. Couldn't the Cardinals try a swap (Reyes for Inge) with the Tigers and best case scenerio he starts at SS, worst case scenerio he starts at 3B?
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Inge lowers Rolen's value
I think the more salient point is that now Inge is on the market he really lowers Rolen's trade value.
rolen's value
by cdb on Dec 5, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
im sorry but
Duncan really isn't a player that's particularly
Normally
I think the thing about Dunc is that he's got a lot of value to a team needing offense at first or DH (Yankees, Twins, Angels come to mind off the top of my head).
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
If you're going to create a hole in your
The Rule 5 draft
I understand that with the teams we've had lately wasting a roster spot on iffy young talent wasn't a good option. But a Josh Hamilton or Dan Uggla could really help this year.
Also note that the Rule 5 draft really advantages AL clubs since they are less likely to need their whole bench in a game.
to draft someone
I thought so too
So that puts us at 39 by my count.
Can some one help me here?
Marlins-Tigers Trade
That's overstating it by a lot, but the Marlins picked up a tone of very good talent yesterday.
That the Tigers took Dontrelle Willis is amazing. He was lousy last season in a pitcher's park without facing the DH. He's in for some big trouble in 2008.
Probably not
Free Agency...
2 WS in 10 years. The Marlins know how to rebuild.
They should be quite good in a couple of years.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
LBoros--thanks for the shout out!
Oops...Red Baron, I mean.
Wow.
Too bad we don't have Haren anymore . . .
Phew, I'll say
This is right up there with Mos Diary...
Tidbits from Strauss...
Prospects = trade leverage. Despite the locally produced spin, the ChatMeister(Strauss himself) has repeatedly told his audience that the Cardinals' minor-league well is very shallow. It's OK to draft predominantly college players. But it also doesn't matter if you believe your philosophy sound and your players great if other franchises don't see the same ceiling.
From his appearance on Bernie's radio show:
He talked to TLR today, and said "you might want to spend the 75 cents tomorrow(buy the paper)". One tease, and I'm paraphrasing here... La Russa says he doesn't care if Rolen likes him or not; he's under contract, and is expected to do his job.
He says there are a couple of names that the team is looking at(pitcher, impact bat), and are "bigger" than expected in terms of previous interest.
Thanks
by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2007 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
This
Same ole story, but this makes it seem like Perotto doesn't think a deal is dead.
by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2007 7:01 PM EST reply actions
I doubt that story
Stark on XM
if we can keep him and hes
by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 9:39 PM EST reply actions
Why not?
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
It was on his Top 50 FA's list on ESPN.com
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
It's
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
If you guys didn't already see...
I was kind of skeptical about how they were going to do so anyways. Without letting lose on prospects (and I'm glad they aren't), or shipping off Duncan (which TLR has apparently advocated against)... how else were they going to bring one in? Free Agents? I think whether Carlos Silva or Kyle Lohse represent top of the rotation pitchers is debatable.
On second thought, no it isn't. They aren't top of the rotation starters either.
Tonight he said
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
not without sending over some prospects we aren't.
More on TLR vs Scotty
That got me thinking - Anybody have any quotes from Scotty about this whole mess? I wonder how much of this is media induced?
LaRussa on Rolen
I disagree with it be scathing. If what Rolen believes what TLR says in those quotes is offensive, he must be living in the clouds.
LaRussa hits the nail on the head.
best fit
rolen, reyes, +? to orioles
bedard, tejada to the cards
this would be expensive (? would likely be both players and $), but save rasmus, who i agree should no be dealt, it seems to solve several problems for both teams.
That wouldn't be enough
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
That plus
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
TLR/Rolen
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 10:26 PM EST reply actions
I'm with you....I haven't heard Rolen
Why do we all want to hear from Rolen?
I, for one, do not understand LaRussa's repeated insistence on cracking on Rolen in the media. Is Tony that big of a media whore? When he gets pulled over for drunk driving, he doesn't want to go near a camera and a mike but when he and Rolen don't get along he can't stay away!
I don't know and I don't care who's to blame in the great Tony-Scott soap opera but it's almost certainly both of these very stubborn men. Now, however, it's time for Tony to shut the fuck up! His repeated criticisms are hurting Rolen's trade value -- as it's now apparent that Tony doesn't want Rolen playing here, but it's also making Rolen look like the good guy in all of this. No wonder Rolen doesn't want to play here anymore. His manager insists, on an almost weekly basis, on finding the nearest microphone and ripping him for NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Shut up, Tony. When you have something worthwhile to say, say it. Until then go feed the dogs or do your community service.
Tell us how you really feel...
It wasn't until Rolen demanded his way out of St. Louis that LaRussa started going more public with things. Rolen wants out but doesn't want to talk to the Tony or Mo about it.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
There is a huge difference here
Tony has routinely now called out Rolen publicly. Why? What purpose does that serve? It hurts his trade value b/c the more rancor other GM's see, the more they recognize that this is an untenable situation. Tony's actions re: Rolen have been classless and detrimental to the organization -- if only b/c it means that the Cards will receive less, or have to pay more of Rolen's salary, when he's traded.
DeWitt needs to call Tony (if Tony isn't DeWitt's boss) and tell him to shut the fuck up! Tony's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy out of line here. Once was understandable -- maybe. But now this is at least the 3rd time Rolen has been publicly called out by LaRussa since the season without any provocation from Rolen whatsoever.
Besides which, I didn't hear Tony rip Adam Kennedy for being one of the worst players in baseball last year. In fact, he's said positive things about him -- as he should -- whether it's true or not. I don't see why Tony gets points here by people for being honest (not that I'm conceding that he's being honest). But if he is, it doesn't matter if Rolen's a whiny whatever. STFU, Tony and grow the fuck up also!
Just to add
Rolen deserves better than the way he's being treated here and, frankly, the organization deserves better than what LaRussa's doing to it right now. Somebody needs to shut him up or send him packing -- new contract or no!
I'm starting to think
I don't think DeWitt is going to like all of this being played out in the media. We saw what happened to Walt, and this is getting A LOT more media coverage.
It actually wouldn't suprise me if Tony isn't the manager come spring training if this thing blows up even more.
how is it classy to sit in the corner
i dont have a problem with what Tony had to say. the only reason Tony felt the need to speak out was scotty through his agents & friends has demanded a trade & told the Cards he wont play for them. and when MO or Tony tries to call him & talk to him, scotty wont take their calls.
listen i'm as sick of the needless bullshit drama as the rest of us. its needs to stop, & it needed to stop 5 years ago. both scotty & tony have gigantic ego's & thats why this is still a problem. neither one will admit they are wrong. and trust me, BOTH ARE WRONG
I don't even know who Jim Hayes is
And even if what Tony said was true, it doesn't excuse his saying it, repeatedly, in the papers. He's hurting the team by doing so and for that, I've lost a lot of respect for LaRussa. He used to put the team first. Here, he's putting the stroking of his own ego first.
the writers in the p-d
I think they're both pansies who need to suck it up and play baseball.
Provication
And the Adam Kennedy analogy is bunk. It's not like LaRussa called out Rolen during the season for playing poorly. It's not like he bad mouthed him in 06 when he was one of the worst everyday hitters in baseball the final month of the season.
For your analogy to work, Adam Kennedy would have had to play terrible (he did), end the season with surgery (he did) and then demand to be traded without ever talking to the manager he is feuding with.
And again, Rolen hasn't publicly discussed it, rather he has let out information via 'people close to Rolen'. It's a good way of getting what you want to say out there but appear to take the high road.
Then refuse to meet with the person you supposedly are at odds with.
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
I stiIl don't get it
So Rolen crys to his friends. So he says Tony isn't in his 5 any more. So he calls up everyone who is in the front office and says he wants out. Why does that justify Tony throwing him under the bus in the press?
If Rolen wont meet with tony then that's Rolens problem. End of subject. All Tony has to say is Rolen knows where Tony's office is and if there is a problem talk to him there. If he doesn't meet with him there then there isn't a problem.
All I hear is Tony acting like a 7 year old girl. A real leader would talk shit to the media. He wouldn't know matter what you say.
I don't know if Rolen is an Ass. He might be but I haven't heard anything from him and until I do it's just girls gossiping.
You're the one who brought up Tony's
But, once again, even if what LaRussa said was true, he's hurting the team by repeatedly beating up Rolen in the media. It's classless and detrimental to the team. Is Tony's ego that fragile that he needs to continually stroke it, even if it means hurting the team?
I don't know the specifics
IIRC, when LaRussa was resigned he was asked about Rolen and talked about how he was planning to reach out to him and try to work all of this out. So I don't know, maybe they got in a boxing match in the interim. I really don't care, I'd just like to know what is actually going on. Its really none of my business, but damn it I'm still curious!
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 6, 2007 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
more larussa on rolen
larussa the lawyer. i imagine he's telling the truth, but it sure seems like he's doing so for appearance only.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/winter_meetings/y2007/archive.jsp?day=3 down under the subheading "Mayo on Miller, Maybin," near the bottom of the page.
by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 PM EST reply actions
Good
We should just focus on Reyes for now, because he's a player that CANNOT be used in this system. We still have use for Rolen, but Reyes just isn't going to work out.
larussa wants him gone?
and that's twice that the rotoworld thing has put in unprofessional bias toward the news it reports. the writer better be a cards fan or he deserves a kick to the face.
he's a cub's fan-
Oh, and I went the whole day without saying it
The Shortest Thing You'll Ever Get From Me
-That's not what SHE said!
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 5, 2007 10:49 PM EST reply actions
said this before
by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 10:52 PM EST reply actions
I agree and Quentin
I DID NOT want TLR/Duncan back. Need to go in a diff direction. And I was in favor of moving Chris Duncan to help pitching if we got Quentin.
I am not all at happy with recent turn of events.
Bedard
Let me just say this and then..
Because
I can't stand when a supervisor blows up an employee in front of people.
Same here...and for that matter unless I missed it. Rolen hasn't come out in public and bitched.
Sure Rolen may be a spoiled ass, but Tony has to rise above that childish act and manage him. What I read today comes off like one ass not liking another ass.
Disagree completely
First of all, if anyone thinks Tony has to "do something" to take control of his team, then they haven't been paying very close attention the past 12 years. Tony is NOTHING if not domineering and controlling, and I guarantee you that EVERYONE in that clubhouse knows who's in charge...and it ain't Scott Rolen.
Secondly, running one of your players down in the media is NOT how you bring this situation to an amicable resolution. In fact, it's incredibly unprofessional no matter how you try to justify it. You can certainly argue that Rolen may be a prima donna of sorts, but if so then you have to also admit that Tony is Grand Master of Mind Games. Unfortunately, his repeated attempts to use them to manipulate Rolen into the docile/controlled player he keeps hoping for have apparently all backfired, and they continue to fail.
The only thing this latest round of Tony's Media Mayhem is going to do, as everyone else has noted, is 1) ratchet up the drama even more, 2) INCREASE tension in the clubhouse, 3) lower Rolen's trade value, and 4) further reduce any likelihood of reconciliation. Burning bridges and costing the team potential money and prospects is not really my idea of a "laudable" approach.
How is repeatedly demonizing one of your players in public supposed to be a positive? For anyone? I suppose if all Tony cares about is making an EXAMPLE out of Rolen as he runs Scotty out of town in exchange for a bag of balls and a tub of MLB Rubbin' Dirt, then I suppose Tony's bizarre behavior may further cow the rookies into submission in what's left of his clubhouse. However, that is hardly the approach most experts at interpersonal communications or relationship management would advocate.
And don't believe for a moment that I feel Rolen is guiltless in all of this. He and Tony are BOTH culpable. However, trying to spin this latest embarrassment as some sort of positive for Tony is, personally, quite baffling. Running your players down publicly is pretty much exactly how NOT to handle this type of situation.
In my personal opinion, Mozeliak, DeWitt, or Lamping needs to step in and put a stop to this nonsense.
I'm with you most of the way,
Intra-team feuds, however, occur on every team and every GM has experience with them. If I'm a GM I am looking at Rolen for his expected performance and the soap opera stuff is just background noise that means more to the fans and media than it does to me.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
New stuff
Cards in on Rowand, Colon.
by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 1:50 AM EST reply actions

by 

















