Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Nevin Shapiro Vows To Bring Down Miami

The pen is mightier than...?

I've decided I really like the theme of discussing bullpens in general, and the Cards' specifically, so I thought I'd continue today by discussing how the relievers were used by LaRussa last year and how they might be used in '08. On Monday, LB's theme was to discuss who might be in the Cards' pen in '08 and so I wanted to pick up on that in discussing the relievers' expected roles. Of course, we know one man's role - Izzy's - but the departure of Percival and the anticipated arrival of Perez and/or Worrell and others this season leaves the other roles TBD.

Back in July, Erik looked at LaRussa's pattern of use with his relievers since 2002. Part of that discussion was a 1st half evaluation of Tony's use pattern for the '07 relievers. What really stood out about Tony's use of the pen during the 1st half of the season was the degree to which Tony used Randy Flores. Flores was awful during the first half, and indeed for most of the year, yet Tony trusted him in tougher situations than most of the staff. Erik examined this by using relievers' leverage index - a measurement that tells us how important a situation a pitcher is being used in. A LI > 1.00 tells us that the situation is more important than at the beginning of a game and an LI less than 1.00 tells us that the situation is less important (i.e.: a blowout) than the beginning of the game. As of early July, LaRussa trusted Izzy (duh!), Franklin, and Flores among regular relievers in difficult situations and didn't trust Springer, Johnson, or Thompson in tough situations.

Let's see how '07 ended:

WPA BRAA gmLI
Izzy 2.75 14.79 1.34
Franklin 1.59 15.02 1.27
Springer 1.55 20.70 0.89
Percival 0.89 13.48 0.61
Johnson -0.19 -3.76 0.77
Flores -0.74 -12.88 1.12
Thompson 0.07 -5.69 0.65
Wellemeyer 0.21 3.59 0.81*

* -- w/ Royals and Cards

One little statistical notation - I chose to use gmLI from fangraphs rather than pLI. gmLI reflects the leverage index at the point when the reliever was brought into the game whereas pLI reflects the leverage index for each plate appearance the reliever faced. IMO, using gmLI gives us a better indicator of Tony's decision-making. It's interesting, for example, that Flores' gmLI is 1.12 but his pLI is 0.95. This means, of course, that the game situation was much tighter when he entered the game than it was when he exited, since the LI of subsequent plate appearances (on average) fell. Considering how poorly Flores pitched, this tells me that he often entered the game when it was close and exited when it, unfortunately for us, wasn't.

So what do we see here? First of all, what a bimodal bullpen - half is great and half is downright stinkorific! Another thing that stands out is the fact that Springer was one of the Cards' best relievers last year and yet was the 4th most likely to be used in a tough situation. Even discarding the fact that Izzy was used in special situations (closing only), Springer was Tony's 3rd choice in tough situations. Considering how good Franklin was for most of the year and the fact that Flores is left-handed, there is some logic here. Still, by most measures Springer was even better last year than Franklin.

We can also see why Ron Flores, Randy's brother, was brought to town. I mentioned in the comments on Monday that I would hope that we wouldn't have 3 lefties in the pen. Well, it's plain from these numbers that someone was needed to push Johnson and Randy b/c Johnson was just not very good last year and Flores was positively ghastly. I mean, lock up the women and children awful! Of course, Ron wasn't exactly Billy Wagner out there, what w/ his -0.66 WPA and his -2.33 BRAA. Still, I doubt that Randy poked a lot of fun at Ron around the Thanksgiving or Christmas bird!

Finally, we have to wonder (and I know many did during the game threads) why Tony was so, what's the word - pampering?, w/ Percival last year. He was, for the most part, tremendous yet Tony trusted him less than Brad Thompson? Is there any reason to think that, when it became apparent that Flores wasn't going to get lefties out consistently, Percival and/or Springer couldn't get them out? Isn't a good righty better than a bad lefty vs. a left-handed hitter? Good grief!

Wellemeyer's performance has been largely forgotten in the Cards' blogosphere this offseason. I know some have advocated using him as the 5th starter but I've always liked him more in the `pen. He can get a K (15 in 14.1 relief innings) and his BB's are less likely to do a lot of damage coming out of the pen. Also, as the numbers above indicate, he really was pretty good after coming over from the Royals.

As for '08, we know Izzy will be the closer and that the pen will have at least 2 lefties. God help us if one is Randy and he's as horrendous as he was last year. As bad as Flores was last year, I'm probably more disturbed by Tony's use of him than I am Flores' actual performance. I realize the fact that lefties are, generally, much tougher on lefties and Tony has said, on more than 1 occasion, that he trusts in Flores' ability to get righties out as well. Or maybe what he really said was that Flores is as effective vs. righties as he is against lefties b/c that's pretty much the truth. In 106 PA's last year vs. lefties, they beat Flores around to a .326/.385/.435 clip. Righties actually had 41 more PA's vs. Flores last year and they were only able to muster a .299/.338/.403 year against our too-often used lefty.

So we have 3 not-very-good-lefties for 2 spots. That's not really true, I guess. I do like Johnson's stuff - his problem is throwing strikes. He had 3.79 BB/9 last year and, when brought in to face 1 guy, he can't walk him. Presumably, Franklin gets first crack at the 8th inning slot he filled last year. I'm going on record as being opposed to this. Franklin had 4 K's /9 IP last year and his BABIP was .255. For a guy who allows so many balls to be put into play, it's unrealistic to expect such a low BABIP again. The odds of Franklin being as great as he was for most of '07 just aren't very high.

So that brings us to Springer, Thompson, Wellemeyer and anyone else (Worrell, Perez, Kinney, Politte) who might make the staff. Personally, I like Springer for the 1st crack at the 8th inning role. Last year he K'd 9 per 9 IP and that's pretty well in line w/ his career #'s (8.08 K/9). He is older (39) but, if he's healthy, he seems to be a better fit for a high-leverage role than Franklin. I'm not opposed to Wellemeyer getting a crack at the 7th inning role. He may have to work up to that sort of role, but I think he's got the stuff for it.

I also think that Perez deserves every shot to make the team out of spring. If he doesn't, though, I expect we'll see him beneath the arch before the All-Star break. With Izzy's contract up at the end of the year, we're going to have to find us a closer and Perez is being groomed as the closer of the future. Hence, we need to see what he's got next year. Here's a crazy idea: could Wellemeyer do it? Hmmmmm!

The biggest problem I see (aside from the complete ineptitude of our lefties) is that LaRussa is likely to trust some of our inferior relievers in tougher situations and have less faith in some of our better relievers. Now, I'm not saying that Wellemeyer is definitely a better option than Franklin but I believe that Springer is. Franklin was very lucky last year and Springer was still at least as good, and quite possibly better. There was some discussion earlier this week about relievers' roles. I think that relievers need to have their roles and need to know them. However, they shouldn't be so locked into them that the manager is loathe to change them.

Moreover, while it's important to find relievers who can get lefties out, we shouldn't be so locked into the mindset that lefties are inherently better than righties against left-handed hitters that we forget that we might have some righty relievers who are just plain better - better vs. righties and lefties. Kinney, Springer, and Wellemeyer have all been better vs. lefties in the past than Randy Flores was last year. Will we keep putting Randy into those high-leverage situations while the others wait their turn? Maybe Flores will be better in '08 but I should state here that he wasn't that much better in '06.

An opportunity is there for the `pen to be one of the Cards' strengths in '08. It's going to have to be for the Cards to approach .500. However, that also means that the better pitchers should pitch in the tougher situations. Does this mean eliminating their roles? Not at all. It means changing who fits into each role and not being locked into the idea of having 2 or 3 lefties just so we can have more "versatility." I'd rather have more "ability", even if that means less "versatility" and I think the Cards' pen would be better off for it.

Comment 32 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

As I already suggested...

... it would be a good move to sell Franklyn high, based on last year's performance. Of course he should be sold as part of a package, but he may be worth more than Reyes, while being in reality less valuable. The options for the setup are many (Wellmayer, Springer, Kinney, even Flores if he's good), so no fear of having a thin bullpen.

I do not see him going in the rotation, there are already too many pitchers (and one more possibly arriving). Better cash on him as much as they can until his "optimum setup man" aura has not faded...

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Dec 30, 2007 4:09 AM EST reply actions  

agreed
one of our few potential sell high guys whose loss would not really be a big negative.  i also believe his contract enhances his value.

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2007 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I hadn't realized.....
how crappy Flores had been used.  We know from the book, TLR is aware of "reverse split" matchups.  Makes you wonder why he stuck with Flores.

by Whynot on Dec 30, 2007 5:18 AM EST reply actions  

well...
I think he stuck with Randy b/c he had even less faith in Tyler (just or no just) and there was literally no one else to take the reigns.  D.GOOCH
Cardinals, Cardinals, Cardinals!

by GOOCH24 on Dec 30, 2007 6:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Is he really aware?
At least on the hitting side, it took most of the year of Ludwick not hitting lefties before it finally sank in. He was quicker to catch on with Ankiel vs Lefties, but I think it was still a month...

by DiscoJer on Dec 30, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The reverse split
you eventually have to find out if it is random chance or legit.  If a lefty can't hit a lefty, that's pretty normal.  If a righty can't hit a lefty, something is usually up.

Also, I believe Ludwick hit LHP at Memphis pretty well.  We could say all this and next year he could put up a .800 OPS against LHP for no particular reason.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 30, 2007 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

CYA
I've always felt that Tony practices "cover your ass" management when it comes to the bullpen.

Flores continuously got used last year despite being terrible specifically because he was a lefty.  

Tony has to know how terrible Flores was pitching.  But he keeps trotting him out there against lefties in high leverage.

It's frustrating to see Flores blow a game and then see La Russa in the post game press conference saying, "Well, I went to Randy because we were facing a lefty."

It's like Tony knows he's not making the right choice, but it's easier to deal with questions if he can just say "well, it was lefty-lefty.  What do you want?"

Maybe I'm being hypercritical, but that's my impression of Tony's bullpen use.  I feel like his development of one reliever as strictly closer falls under the same principle.

by arch support on Dec 31, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

How can we sell high...
when we've already bought high on him?  We've already hung Franklin around our necks.  He's there for the duration.  D.GOOCH
Cardinals, Cardinals, Cardinals!

by GOOCH24 on Dec 30, 2007 6:14 AM EST reply actions  

....Tonys "guys"
You flat nailed me and others repeatedly here on Wellemeyer being worth squat thru the fall season, glad to see something of a reversal of opinion? I think?

I agree on TLRs preference vs. performance in facing tough hitters irregardless of the L/R matchups with certain guys. Always one guy in the pen he singles out against the charts.

I dont see Flores doing more than he's done in the past. Outside of Garcia, not many lefty hopefuls on the farm to challenge.

Some guys just dont look good in red.

by cardschinmusic on Dec 30, 2007 9:11 AM EST reply actions  

Wellemeyer's not good as a starter
and has no future there. If I "nailed" you on Wellemeyer, it was for continually beating the drum that he needs to be a starter. I did believe then and believe now that he can be effective out of the pen, as I stated above.

by chuckb on Dec 30, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Not arguing HC
just would like to know your reasoning on Wellemyer not being able to make it as a starter.

by ridgesee on Dec 30, 2007 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Several reasons
#1 -- he's basically a 2 pitch pitcher -- fastball, slider

#2 -- '07 BB/9 = 4.20; career BB/9 = 5.62

#3 -- last year he made 11 starts for the Cards for 49.1 IP, an average of 4.48 IP per start -- horrendous.  I think that's mainly attributable to #'s 1 and 2

#4 -- in his 11 starts last year, only 3 times did he go beyond 5 innings, twice going 6 and once going 5.1 IP.  

The bottom line is that he's too wild to be a starter.  He simply throws too many pitches to be able to be counted on past 5 innings.  

Some might argue that his arm could be stretched out, as Looper's was.  It's a completely different situation.  While Looper doesn't strike anyone out, he walks fewer than 3 per 9 IP.  The problems isn't one of his arm not being stretched out.  Once he threw 97 pitches and another time he threw 94.  He just can't consistently throw enough strikes to keep him in games past the 5th.  

His arm and repertoire are made for the pen.  He can strike people out and get a decent # of ground balls and his limited repertoire allows him not to be overexposed coming out of the pen.  He'd have to reduce his BB/9 considerably to be a viable option from the rotation and that just isn't in line  w/ what he's been able to do in the past.  

If he walks 4.2 batters per 9 this year, I'd be happy w/ that considering his history but that's just too many to have from a starter.  A reliever can get away w/ walking 1 every other inning b/c he's not expected to go 6 or 7.  A starter cannot.

by chuckb on Dec 30, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree
he is a two pitch pitcher and would need to at least come up with a good off speed pitch, minimum, but I say that there is not a big enough sample yet to judge him as a starter. I could give a dozen names that I have thought would not make it over the years, yet they fooled me and turned out to be great pitchers. But I'll just give you 2 to examine how they started out; Gregg Maddux and Curt Schilling.

 When they first came up, just from reading daily box scores and looking at stats I kept thinking why do the Cubs keep starting Maddox, and why does the Phillies keep running this guy Schilling out there, but they did and after a couple years I understood why. Go to MLB.com and look at their career records and see how their control developed  year after year. But at the beginning it is not much different than Welemeyer.

by ridgesee on Dec 30, 2007 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

This will be Welleymeyer's age 30 season
by the time that Greg Maddux entered his age-30 season, he already had 8 seasons of more than 200 IP and had a career ERA of 2.88 in more than 2000 IP.  He had already won 4 Cy Youngs.  You can't really be serious here.

Schilling was a little more of a slow starter.  By the time he reached his age-30 season, he only had 2 200 IP seasons and had a career ERA of 3.49.  Wellemeyer has no seasons where he has even thrown 100 IP and has a career ERA of 4.98 and an ERA+ of 90.

From the beginning, they were much, much better than Wellemeyer, particularly Maddux.  Wellemeyer will be 30 years old this year.  Maddux was almost a Hall of Famer at this point in his career.  He was coming off 2 consecutive seasons in which he posted ERA+'s of 271 and 262!  Do you foresee Wellemeyer even getting half of that this season?  I don't.  

Schilling is closer but he's not at all close to Wellemeyer.  Wellemeyer's comps include people like Darrel Akerfelds, Mike DeJean, Britt Reames and Luther Hackman -- yes, that Luther Hackman.  Maddux and Schilling, at ages 42 and 41 respectively, are much better now than Wellemeyer ever will be.

by chuckb on Dec 30, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah,
I see your points, and at comparable ages Maddux and Schilling were far more advanced than Welemeyer; because they had recieved their chances earlier. I admit 30 years old is a little late to be getting a good shot as a starter but I still say he could turn out to be a good 4th starter for a few years.

In looking at Maddox and Schilling record closely ( {and I'm sure you did) they were kind of bad starting off..and was it not interesting to note that the real good pin point control they became noted for took about three to four years to develop after they had become regular starters and continued even better with experience. Wellemeyer doesn't have that much time and never will be a Maddox or Schilling for sure; I'm not that dense, but after seeing him last year, I wondered why the Cubs didn't stick with him longer when he was younger.

All I'm saying is that I can't say with the confidence that you do, that he can't be a better than average starter. Go look at Sandy Kofax's record. He really stunk the league up for about four years and was about 28 before he came around, but the Dodgers didn't give up on him and look where he led them, Welemeyer has been shuffled around like a lot of pitchers have through the years for one reason or another and I had never paid any attention to him until the Cards picked him up last year and from watching him, I just thought he was the best of the lot to become a Duncan project that's all, nothing more.

by ridgesee on Dec 31, 2007 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

obviously
It is nice to have a LH reliever in the pen, but it could get to the point where you just have to go with the best people out there.

What was wrong with TJ last year?  He was just awful and it seemed as if his slurve was way off or people were just laying off it better.  

I agree with you houstoncardinal, in that Wellemeyer is a good strikeout guy.  I don't know the stats but I think he has potential to be the best strike out pitcher on the team.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 30, 2007 9:19 AM EST reply actions  

without looking at the game logs
I thought TJ was great, hurt his arm and didn't tell anyone thus sucking, then went on the DL, then came back great again.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 30, 2007 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

TJ's 2007
Thats how I remembered it too.

by SethWestern on Dec 30, 2007 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah i think thats what happened too
but i remember tony didnt use him as much once he came back from the DL.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 30, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

on the money
perhaps more than any recent year i was puzzled by tlr's bullpen rotation.  franklin was on a roll (better to be lucky than good in some sense), but flores was definitely not (i winced every time he was called).  i am also curious how things will go this year.  they gave springer a very nice contract, too nice it seems to me to be 4th man out.  if his contract is to make any sense, i would expect his role to change. welle's role will be an interesting one to watch.

by sportsman on Dec 30, 2007 9:32 AM EST reply actions  

you talk about how
Franklin's BABIP won't be repeated, as if to say he doesn't deserve any credit for it being that low...but you also mention how high Flores's BA/OBP/SLG against was (which BABIP has a lot to do with), as if to say it's mostly his fault for it being that high. it's sort of a double standard.

besides, Springer and Izzy each had lower BABIPs than Franklin, so technically you're expecting a bigger regression out of them than him.

but anyway- yeah I do like Springer as a setup guy next year. He's pretty old now but hopefully his results are more like they were in 07 than they were in 06...

by Petkovsek on Dec 30, 2007 11:32 AM EST reply actions  

Elite closers
do carry high BABIPs if I'm not mistaken. Isringhausen's hasn't been near league average since 2002. He will regress, of course as the .224 or whatever is ridiculous, but he probably has some talent there.

As for Springer, he'll regress too, but his having a good year wasn't dependent on his BABIP. He had a 2.79 FIP.

Franklin's year just looks like smoke and mirrors.

by plh903 on Dec 30, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

And by "high"
I mean "low". I need an edit function. Every freaking time.

by plh903 on Dec 30, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Franklin v. Flores
Last year Franklin's BABIP was .255 -- 22 pts. below his career average.  In fact, it hadn't been beneath .293 since 2003.  In 2006, it was .294, when his GB% and LD% were virtually the same as they were in 2007.  It's not too much of a stretch to say that Franklin received some good fortune last year.  If you care to believe it'll happen again, feel free.  You might be right.

As for Flores, his BABIP was astoundingly high -- as it always is and probably will continue to be.  The reason is his unbelievably high LD% -- it was 22.8% last year, 21.9% in '06, and 22.8% in '05.  He gives up a lot of line drives so he gives up a lot of hits.  I will allow that his BABIP was probably inflated by his unrepeatably low HR/FR rate of 3.0%.  His career average is 9.4% -- about league average.  His rate of HR/FB last year would have been the lowest in baseball if he had enough innings to qualify.  As I said, he'll probably give up more homers this year, thus lowering his BABIP slightly.  Still, doesn't that add to my belief that Flores will stink again?

by chuckb on Dec 30, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

BB as starter vs reliever
regarding Wellemeyer's BB, houstoncardinal says: "his BB's are less likely to do a lot of damage coming out of the pen." I'm wondering why this is. Is there a stat suggesting that a reliever's BB is less likely to score than a starter's BB? Is a reliever's BB more likely, say, to occur with one or two outs while a starter's BB more likely to occur with one or no outs?  

by SLOKev on Dec 30, 2007 4:22 PM EST reply actions  

I'm assuming
here but maybe it is having a BB rate of 2.15 facing 30 batters instead of maybe 5?
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 30, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

haha
I'll take the Penis Mightier for 500, Alex.

by lopey986 on Dec 30, 2007 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

The Pen is Mightier...
do you have one and does it work?
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 30, 2007 5:14 PM EST reply actions  

There are two kinds of bullpens
Lousy, and all the others.

With VERY few exceptions -- Colorado their first few years was one -- it is rare for teams to have bullpens so good as to constitute a "strength."  All you really want is that the pen not be a "weakness."  This pen won't be a weakness; I think both last year and your data say that.  So what's the big deal?  While I appreciate your careful study, this bullpen doesn't strike me as something to build on, but rather as a problem that we don't have.  This is a good thing, for sure, but let's now concentrate on getting the pen some leads to hang on to.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 30, 2007 6:01 PM EST reply actions  

Don't ignore the pen
Not saying we shouldn't concentrate on the starting rotation, but the bullpen is not something to just say "eh, it's good enough" about and then forget.

GM's are gradually realizing that bullpens, specifically middle relief, are a facet of teams that have been treated with that "well, we're not lousy so don't worry about it" attitude.  As a result, some teams are paying specific attention to their bullpen arms in order to change the bullpen from a necessity to a strength.

In this age of inflated contracts, having a good to great bullpen can be a cheap way of gaining a decided advantage over a team who doesn't pay that much attention to their own.  I'd rather the Cards be in the group of teams that takes advantage than the group that stands pat.

by arch support on Dec 31, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Randy Flores
I've looked at the same numbers you did Houston and I agree.  We have to find an alternative for Flores.  We have several righthanders that I would go to to get a lefty out before I'd go to Flores.  And simply stated, that ain't good.  I remember the analysis here midseason showing he was being used in tight spots as a lefty specialist.  I really hope that changes in 08'.  

Much of what Mo has done this offseason has been a removal of dead weight.  I'd think reducing or even eliminating Flores' role would fit that agenda also.  

by Merry CRasmus on Dec 31, 2007 12:27 AM EST reply actions  

Wellemyer
I've also been in the small camp of people advocating that Wellemyer be tried as a starter again.  My reasoning is fairly simple.  If a pitcher reportedly has talent or "stuff" that has not resulted in success over a large sample in one role he should be tried in another role.  If he succeeds then you should go with it as far as you can.  Wellemyer has been a basically ineffective relief pitcher in 192 lifetime innings.  He has a 5.33 era in relief and walked an outrageous 128 batters in those innings.  In 11 starts last year he had a 3.65 era and an improved walk rate.  In that limited sample he could essentially be called "successful".  Indeed Tony yanked him early every time hence the small sample of 49 innings.  It may be because he threw too many pitches due to control issues, or Tony's lack of trust in some pitchers but I assume it was just that Todd had never been "stretched out" before and Tony wanted to take it slowly.  I don't get to see many games because I don't live near St. Louis but I'm assuming that Houston Cardinal is right that he's a two pitch pitcher.  Of course that may be because he's not been encouraged to develop more because he's a reliever.  At any rate, if the Cards have a competition for a fifth starter I think he should be in it.  Nothing in his resume indicates he'll be a major factor as a reliever.

by easy on Dec 31, 2007 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hahaha_small
These were a few of my favorite things (fink reminisces about the 2011 regular season)
N1046613005_8392_small
Our 2010-2011 strays
649494__1__small
Hall of WAR: Part 2

Recent FanPosts

St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinal Managers EVER!
Dsc01844_small
Cardinals take the Governor's Joplin Challenge, will help build 35 homes for torando victims
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals of All-Time - Relief Pitching Edition
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals of All-Time - Starting Pitching Edition
Small
Two Trades That Set the Cards Back in the 70s
Nyc_small
Cardinals Offense vs. Reds Offense - 2012
Nyc_small
Cardinals Rotation vs. Reds Rotation - 2012
St-louis-cardinals-script_small
Best Cardinals by Position - Center Fielders

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny__1__small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bendermad_small azruavatar

Trigun_001_small the red baron

Images_small tom s.

Authors

1989_bgh_cropped_small bgh

Valverde_medium_small vivaelpujols