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Too close for comfort

So azruavatar's story a week ago Friday got me to thinking about bullpens and they way they're used in today's game. How are/should bullpens be structured? The 1-inning closer, largely patterned by LaRussa's use of Eckersley in the late 80's and early 90's, is here to stay, of course. Much has been made of the poor way in which closers have been used - very often in lower leverage situations than the setup men or 7th inning relievers who precede them. Too often managers wait until the 9th inning w/ no one on base to use the closer rather than bringing him in during the 8th when the leverage index may be higher. Maybe the setup man will get out of it; maybe he won't and then there's nothing left for the closer to close. There's nothing new in that.

If the closer is the most important member of the bullpen, possibly as important as a #1 starter, does it not make sense that the closer should be the best reliever? In fact, the majors' best closer last season had as many win shares as Johan Santana did. Too often, however, managers select some relatively inferior reliever to close games all the while wasting their best reliever in the 7th or 8th inning. I suppose the term "wasting" is a relative term - by that I mean using him in a lower leverage situation than is optimal.

Quickly, name the 5 best relievers in baseball. Billy Wagner or Mariano Rivera on your list? They shouldn't be. The top 5 closers by saves last year were Jose Valverde, Joe Borowski, Francisco Cordero, Trevor Hoffman, and Bobby Jenks. Any of them on your list? They shouldn't be yet Cordero parlayed his 44 save season into a 4 year, $46 million contract from the Reds and the Astros gave up 3 players in a trade for Jose Valverde (back to that one soon).

Only 2 of last year's 8 playoff teams had closers who earned more than Brett Myers' $5 million (Rivera and Rodriguez). Most of the highest paid closers - Wagner, B.J. Ryan, Izzy, Hoffman, Lidge, and Nathan - watched the playoffs on TV w/ the rest of us.

Below is a chart of the top 15 relievers as measured by lineup-adjusted win expectation above replacement, win shares, and win productivity added. You should notice a lot of similarity between the 3 lists.

WXRL WS WPA
Putz Putz Putz
Betancourt Saito Betancourt
Saito Betancourt Saito
Bell Jenks Bell
Papelbon Nathan Soria
Nathan Bell Papelbon
Soria Capps Nathan
Okajima Rodriguez Rodriguez
Lyon Accardo Okajima
Valverde Izzy Neshek
Rodriguez Papelbon Marmol
Izzy Valverde Lyon
Corpas Corpas Izzy
Pena Lyon Corpas
Capps Wagner Pena

The undisputed top 3 relievers in baseball were J.J. Putz, Rafael Betancourt, and Takashi Saito - not exactly household names, though 2 were actually closers last year. In fact the one who isn't (Betancourt) sets up one of those (Borowski) who finished in the top 5 in saves. As for consistency of measurement, the minimum number of different pitchers on these 3 lists is 15 while the maximum is 45. There are exactly 20 different names on these 3 lists so we can say that there's certainly a lot of uniformity among the lists. In fact, 10 of the 20 names are on all 3 lists and Joakim Soria probably would have been if the list had been expanded to include 18 names.

Still we see no Rivera, no Hoffman, Wagner's only included once, Lidge - well, nevermind.

There's a lot of dispute about what makes a good closer. A lot of people like experience in their closer. Need I point out that Jonathan Papelbon had absolutely 0 experience as a closer before being turned to out of necessity last year and he ended up as 1 of the best in the game - he finished '06 #2 in WXRL. Takashi Saito, though he had experience in Japan, had none here and the Dodgers turned to him out of necessity. He's become outstanding. J.J. Putz had none, in the majors or minors, before turning into one of the game's best in '06. Joe Nathan, who'll hit the jackpot when he becomes a free agent at the end of this season, had no experience as a closer when the Twins traded for him. He was a middle reliever w/ a good K rate who they plugged in and all of a sudden they had a premier closer. The Reds, on the other hand, believing that they had no one else, gave Cordero nearly $12 M per year for 4 years b/c he had experience.

There are several problems w/ contracts such as these. The first is that, of course, that's $12 M the Reds won't have to spend on starting pitching. Granted, there's none available via FA this offseason but it still inhibits their ability to trade for a high-priced pitcher. Another problem is that closers, generally, have very short windows of success. Because their success is largely predicated on having superior stuff and the ability to blow hitters away doesn't generally last that long, they tend to be very successful only for a short time. It's important to remember that the Riveras, Wagner, even the Izzys are the exception, not the rule. It's far more common to have people like Mark Wohlers, John Rocker, and Brad Lidge than the 3 success stories. (I'm pulling for Lidge, by the way - not sure why, probably b/c he's no longer an Astro.)

The biggest problem, however, with throwing tons of money at an older closer who has "experience" closing games is the one I've already alluded to - the opportunity cost. Each team likely has 1 or 2 or even more people who can do the job at least as capably, and probably better than the present closer and can do it much more cheaply. Why, exactly, do the Indians continue to turn to Borowski and the Tigers, for the love of all that is holy, to Todd freaking Jones? B/c they have "experience" closing games. Do they have someone better? Unquestionably. Would the Rockies have made it to the playoffs, and then the World Series, if they hadn't turned to unknown Manny Corpas as their closer? Doubtful. The Cubs went into the playoffs w/ Ryan Dempster as their closer. Fortunately for them they never got close enough vs. the D'backs to have him blow a game, b/c he certainly would have. They think so much of Dempster as their closer that they've moved him back into the rotation. I don't know who'll close for the Cubs. It should be Carlos Marmol and maybe with the dearth of "experienced" closers out there, it actually will be but I'll believe it when I see it.

We know by now that the Astros are mortgaging about 5 years in the future at a halfway decent chance of winning in the next 2. In doing so, they traded Chad Qualls, Chris Burke, and their #4 prospect (in an admittedly horrible system), Juan Gutierrez, for Jose Valverde. Let's examine this for a moment. What made Chris Burke, their #1 draft pick in 2001 (#10 overall) expendable? -- the signing of Kaz Matsui to a 3 year, $15 M contract. I'd bet my next paycheck that Burke would have been as good or better than Matsui at about 25% of the price. So they traded him, their #4 prospect, and Chad Qualls for Valverde. Isn't it likely that Qualls would have been as good as Valverde in the 9th for the Astros?

K/BB HR/9 GB%
Qualls 3.12 1.09 57.7
Valverde 3.00 0.98 36.7

Granted, Qualls' HR rate is a little higher than Valverde's but he gets a ton of ground balls to go w/ a pretty stout K/BB. His K rate is a little lower than Valverde's but so is his BB rate. Which would you rather have? - Valverde and Matsui or Qualls, Burke and your #4 prospect. Remember, you have to take Matsui's contract as well. Did I mention that Valverde is 2 years until free agency and Qualls has 3? Why didn't they just plug Qualls in? - "experience."

The bottom line is that teams need to be willing to think outside the box when looking for closers. I'm not saying that any jackass can do it b/c that's simply not true. But neither is it true that you have to find someone who's done it before. Most every team has someone w/ the requisite skills to be able to handle the job. This becomes particularly important as, at the end of the season, the Cards are going to have to figure out what to do about Izzy. He's a free agent for real this time. He currently earns $8 M and, if he has a good year again, he'll get a good contract when he becomes a free agent.

The Cards do have Chris Perez in the minors with an eye toward making him the closer of the future and Ryan Franklin was superb last year. Franklin's '07, I feel, was a mirage, however. The only reliever in the top 30 in WXRL w/ a lower K rate than Franklin's 4.95 was Brandon Lyon's 4.86. Franklin's not an extreme GB pitcher (49.4%) and the his BABIP against was .251 - probably unrepeatable for someone who allows so many balls to be put into play.

Will Tony feel comfortable going w/ Perez in `09? I wonder. Perez's problem to this point has been throwing strikes. His career minor league BB/9 is 6.33. He doesn't, however, have a problem missing bats as his career minor league K/9 is 10.73, for a K/BB of 1.70. The most similar pitcher to those numbers in the majors last year was Seattle's young pitcher Brandon Morrow who finished w/ a WXRL of 2.346 despite walking 7.11 per 9 innings. Does Perez need to bring down his walks? Unquestionably. Nevertheless, he needs to be given every chance this spring to make the roster and should pitch in the big leagues in '08. Having a high walk rate, b/c of the very high K rate, shouldn't preclude him from making the Cards' pen. It appears that relievers can survive in the major w/ high walk rates (Morrow, Derrick Turnbow, Luis Vizcaino) if they also have a high K rate. To be a closer, he's going to have to get it (the BB rate) down. But it doesn't mean he can't be successful in the majors now.

The Cards have other players in their system who should be considered for this role in the event that Perez is traded or doesn't pan out. Kenny Maiques, Jason Motte, and Josh Kinney, if he returns healthy, all seem to have the ability to miss bats - the primary skill needed to be a closer, and one much more important than experience. Additionally, if Mozeliak looks outside the organization for Izzy's replacement he should expand his search to include those, like Chad Qualls or Joe Nathan, who have the skills to close even if they've never had the opportunity. Being able to replace an $8 M closer w/ one earning closer to $1 M will be a key toward replenishing the roster and getting the Cards back to the top of the NL Central.

On a completely unrelated note, I want to wish everybody out there a Merry Christmas. I'm a high school teacher in my spare time (i.e. -- when I'm not posting on VEB) and the sponsor for our National Honors Society. Saturday we took over $1200 in food and Christmas presents to 2 families that we "adopted" for Christmas. These families had little food in the house and nothing under the tree for the 12 kids total. The looks on these parents' faces were probably the best gifts I'll get this Christmas. To me, it's what Christmas is all about. The Cards are important, of course, but they're not THAT important. I apologize for the unsolicited preachiness but I hope we all remember how fortunate we are, that we can commisserate and bitch (if necessary) about the Cards. Many aren't so fortunate. Merry Christmas. I hope each of you has a holiday that is as rewarding as mine has been and that each of you gets the gift that you wanted most.

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Good everything
Good point, good write-up, good closing statement. I'm with you on all fronts.

by mojowo11 on Dec 23, 2007 2:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

What to do with Izzy after '08???
Um, it is pretty obvious to me based on past moves that Mo' would be more than willing to let him FA.  That being said, I hope we trade him (and he lets us) because I doubt we will offer him arbitration.

Another excellent job HC.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 23, 2007 2:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Either options...

... would be good, if a meaningful trade can be made, go for it. Arbitration will not be offered in case he'll be a class A FA, because the pick will be ensured anyway.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Dec 24, 2007 4:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One thing I didn't like
They did a good job of covering "What happens when you hit them" but without the context of "how hard it is to hit them in the first place" it doesn't tell the whole story.  

Looking only at their metric it looks like the rising FB is a terrible pitch.  What it doesn't show is the swing and miss or foul rate which is higher than the sinking FB.  That offsets some of its negatives when put into play.  

by DriverZn on Dec 23, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ah, yes
WXRL, the same stat that says Ryan Franklin is better than Jon Broxton.  Honestly, I would take Broxton over half the guys on these lists you made.

Also, I would take Rivera and Cordero over Izzy despite what these stats say.  Maybe I'm just crazy though.

by bigboy1234 on Dec 23, 2007 6:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you are
confusing "is better" with "was better in 2007 in terms of WXRL." WXRL has its faults (I think LEV is horseshit), but it is telling you what it purports to.

Relievers are too fluky to make those kinds of statements, and it's no surprise that a more talented player gets out-performed in a given year of 80 innings.

by plh903 on Dec 23, 2007 8:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well that
and look at Broxton's and Franklin's 2007 numbers and tell me who you'd rather have.

My comment was both in general and 2007.  Cordero was pretty dominant this year also.

by bigboy1234 on Dec 23, 2007 11:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what you're confusing
is that WXRL is a measure of past performance yet you're talking about its predictive nature. WXRL isn't predictive just as ERA isn't predictive. Who would I rather have? Broxton, of course, as I alluded to in the post. I don't see Franklin pitching nearly as well in '08 as he did in '07. Still, it's hard to argue that he wasn't very good for most of '07.

by chuckb on Dec 23, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
it's kind of in between, DIPS calculates what a pitcher can actually control.  So did Broxton pitch better than Franklin in 2007?  I personally think so, but ERA/"luck" would leave you to believe Franklin did.  WXRL is also a counting stat, which would hurt a guy like F. Cordero.

Furthermore statistically speaking Isringhausen will regress more than Franklin based on 2007 numbers.  With pitchers that had at least 50 IP last season, Izzy had the 4th lowest BABIP-LD%, 10th highest xFIP-ERA, 22nd highest FIP-ERA.  To say the least it'll be interesting to see how Izzy, Springer, Franklin, Wellemeyer pitch this year compared to last.

by bigboy1234 on Dec 23, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh
and btw I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, because I see where your coming from.  I think I'm just disagreeing with you because of your 3rd paragraph where you say, "name the 5 best relievers in baseball", and you assume they must come from one of your list.  Maybe if you would have said name the 5 most valuable relievers in 2007, that I would agree with.

by bigboy1234 on Dec 23, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW
Franklin's WPA in '07 was 1.59 vs. Broxton's 1.20. Broxton did have 10 win shares to Franklin's 9. None of those, however, is predictive and that's pretty much the point. What is predictive are things like K/9, BB/9, GB%, etc. People like Franklin can have fluky, yet great, years. That's why people are too often mislead by bullpen stats.

by chuckb on Dec 23, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Houston Cardinal, thanks for sharing the
story of what you did for those two families.  Now, in the spirit of the season, I'd like to share my holiday story.  I'm a teacher's assistant at an elementary school, and we have a group that includes PTO members and some of our staff.  We raise money and collect items for our school families in need. It's done on a small scale all year, and then we also adopt families at Christmas.  This year, we passed out fliers to each student.  The response was fantastic-we raised a little over $3,000 in cash and 149 wrapped gifts.
 We also received a note from a father of two of our students with a ten dollar bill that said, "This $10 is donated for the needy families from my children D--- and D------, $5 dollars from each and  we wish it could be more but we're not doing all that well ourselves."  That money came from a family that we had already identified as one of our needy families and had planned to give gifts to.  It made me cry. And it made me wish I was the one making the delivery to this family--it would make my year to see the beautiful joy on their beautiful faces.  I think it's great that you did that with your students.  

by jillsinmo on Dec 23, 2007 7:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for that story, Jillsinmo
and yours too HC. God bless you both, It's a reminder to me that I haven't done that much this season. Thank you again.

by ridgesee on Dec 23, 2007 10:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your very welcome.
I feel blessed that I have been surrounded by wonderful people my whole life.  Merry Christmas to everyone here.

by jillsinmo on Dec 23, 2007 10:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ability to cope under pressure
Excellent post HC, from the first to the last word.  

The only thing you left out is something that there's not really a stat for:  The ability of a 7th or 8th inning guy to translate his skills into the 9th inning, when there's no one to pick you up if you fail on a given night.  That, along with the "short-term memory loss" (despite that it's not really short-term memory) of forgetting what happened yesterday and going out there not being shaken by yesterday's 450 foot Pujols or Bonds blast.

In some ways, as you stated, the 7th and 8th inning high leverage situations seem to be more pivotal in the game, but there obviously must be reasons why some relievers do so well in those roles, but then when they're put in the 9th, with no one on the depth chart above them to bail them out, they fizzle.  Or even if they have shown past success, they get blasted by someone (a la Brad Lidge) and seem to have their confidence severely shaken.

This is pretty much impossible to put into statistics though, and a statistical approach should be heavily considered when deciding who you want to go with as your closer.  Management just needs to realize some of those guys won't pan out.

by mtalken on Dec 23, 2007 8:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you've hit it,
mtalken. It's the mindset that that you look for and naturally some pretty decent stuff. In set up men I also think It's important to look at someone that can get ready fast when needed. I heard La Russa remark last year that Wainright was as fast as he had seen. He could throw 9 pitches and be ready.

by ridgesee on Dec 23, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

can you give me the names
of some people this has happened to, other than Lidge?  
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 23, 2007 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Other than Lidge
Diamondbacks' Byung Hyun Kim allowed a game-tying, two-out, two-run home run in the ninth inning in Game 4 of the World Series and a decisive homer an inning later.

Atlanta Brave, Mark Wohlers tagged by Jim Leyritz's three-run, eighth-inning homer in Game 4 of the 1996 World Series.  

Obviously these are bigger names on bigger stages, but I am pretty sure there are many others on lesser stages.  

I think the point on mental toughness has some validity.

 

born Dodger blue, now dyed Cardinals red

by totalloser on Dec 23, 2007 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

isolalated events don't really count
I mean, even Jake Peavy has given up more than a home run every 10 IP in his career; you'd expect even a great closer to give up a home run in the playoffs or world series once in a while.  I guess I'm looking for a list of "great" relievers who were turned into closers, failed, and then went back to being "great" relievers.  I can't think of any myself, though I readily admit that I don't have a lot of knowledge in this area.
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 23, 2007 7:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Got One
Maybe not a great reliever but a very good reliever, Latroy Hawkins. In 2000 for the Twins he was 14 for 14 on SVO but the next year they tried to use him as a closer he went 1-5 5.96 ERA and 28 for 37 in SVO. They moved him back to the set-up role the next year and he had his 2 best seasons. Up for FA the cubbies signed him as a closer. His first year with them he was 25 of 34 in SVO. Thats when the cubbies moved Ryan "Trash" Dempster to the closers roll. That change was made because Dempster couldn't stay heathy as a starter so I guessing he is on the DL by July if they make him a starter again. As for their closer for this year another always hurt starter Kerry Wood.
Back to Hawkins, he has had a decent run since then and alot of teams pursued him this off season. Some pitchers just can't handle the 9th even if they have great stuff. Blown saves are so distructive to the clubhouse that teams want to know going in to a year they have someone who can do it. If a young gun blows 3 or 4 saves early in a season the year will be spent trying to find anyone on the roster that can handle the job.
Izzy may keep us on the edge of our seats but he almost always gets his save, I just wish it wasn't with 2 he put on base and a 3-1 count on the hitter. I'm running out of fingernails.

by That's a Winner on Dec 24, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget
John Rocker.
Mitch Williams.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 23, 2007 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Merry Christmas!!!!!!
George Bailey: Hey! Merry Christmas, Mr. Potter!
Mr. Potter: Happy New Year to you... in jail

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038650/quotes

Merry Christmas everyone and it really is a wonderful life!!!

by Calhoun on Dec 23, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

izzy?
hc, very nice and i agree that more analytical factors should be involved in filling the closer position, though clearly some players are not emotionally cut out for that role (or starting, aka kip wells).  it is also important that whoever closes has the confidence of the ball club so that they believe scoring one more run will do it come the 8th or 9th.   that said, i also believe that the cards need to keep a close watch out for opportunities  to trade izzy for something valuable.  with the money they have spent on franklin and springer, it seems they are set for living w or w/o izzy.  i personally like izzy and think he has been a great guy to have on the ball club, but is this a position where you need to spend 8-10% of more of your payroll?  i also have personally felt that a club could easily have two "closers" and experience no ill effects.  it seems to me that is an important question that the cards will need to answer as they look at their overall roster and payroll.

by sportsman on Dec 23, 2007 10:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes,
teams have been forced to use "closer by committee" and made it work.

by ridgesee on Dec 23, 2007 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izzy isn't...
...a "lock" to play past '08; the next time his hip gives out, he's probably looking at retirement and hip replacement surgery.

I wouldn't be stunned if he pitches this year and then says, "That's it." Remember, there were some serious questions about whether he'd be able to come back after his 2006 surgery. He pitched quite well in '07, and I'm hoping for the same this coming year... but that hip ain't a-gonna get any better, and most likely reduces Izzy's trade value and his shot at FA big bucks for '09.

The mental side of closing is a real (if non-quantifiable) requirement for the position... LaTroy Hawkins being a great example of a "lights-out" guy in the 7th or 8th, and a "lit-up" guy in the 9th. But as long as that 9th-inning guy is confident, and the rest of the ballclub is confident in him, a team can get away with using a "lesser" pitcher in the role. (No, I don't understand how the Tigers can continue to use Todd Freakin' Jones as their closer, either... but Jones wasn't the reason Detroit missed the playoffs; the Cleveland Indians were!)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 23, 2007 10:44 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

exactly
which is why the cards should be shopping and listening to offers,  if izzy retires at the end of the year, then the club gets nothing.  with his health, he'll be only "a fill the immediate need" type acquisition for some club going into the season with less than they thought they have or need come july, aka tigers.

by sportsman on Dec 23, 2007 9:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trade bait
I think he should be shopped also.  Nothing goes against what this team is trying to trend to like a top 3 paid closer on a 75 win team.

However, we won't exactly get nothing.   I think Izzy will probably walk a type A which would net us some sandwich picks.   Those in turn could counter loss picks from signing a free agent, or just help us have a real nice draft haul.

Any trade offers should be weighed with loss of draft picks factored into the thought process.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 23, 2007 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post
I think the trait that can't be quantified is the "killer instinct" in the 9th.  Can't see Ryan Franklin doing in the 9th what Izzy does.  Having played a bit, there is a certain tension that ratchets up in the 9th when everyone on the field knows you are only one strike or one out from winning.  A closer has to be able to use this to his advantage.  

by The Duke on Dec 23, 2007 10:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

quote from Pat Neshek
"To me there is not much difference in closing games and setting up...the biggest difference is the paycheck and how much under the microscope closers jobs are! In the minors I actually thought closing was easier than setting up or doing other relief duties because the rush was there wheras if you are pitching in a blow out game things aren't that interesting and the other team is ready to swing for the fences."

Now, if Franklin were to close this year, I would expect his numbers to be worse, but I expect his numbers to be worse anyway because he was quite "lucky" this past year.  Franklin really isn't a top 50 reliever in the game, to me I expect a 4 ERA out of him this year.  I also expect Springer and Izzy to regress, which will make this season even more fun!!!

by bigboy1234 on Dec 23, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Closer corollary
This is really great stuff, but I want to add one more conclusion that can be drawn.  If a team can take a middle reliever with an above average K/9 and turn him into a legitimate closer then that team has created a substantial amount of additional trade value for that player.  Therefore developing and trading closers can be a good way to improve the ballclub.  I wish this was an original thought of mine, but I believe it was discussed in Moneyball - I think Billy Koch was the example.  
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 23, 2007 1:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Accardo
I see he is on the list

Is he the one that won the Blue Jays job or is he the one that blew it?

by jealousblues on Dec 23, 2007 2:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

HC and Jill - Great stories!
God bless!  That's the spirit!

by finmsully on Dec 23, 2007 7:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

depends on whose ox...
to ascribe LaRussa with a major role in popularizing the closer role is in the same general category of Al Gore inventing the internet.
I'm not sure when the word "closer" came into parlance, but I am now 58 years old, and a... let's call it "primary ninth inning guy"... has been a feature of most teams for as long as I can remember.
If the closer role has a modern George Washington I would suggest it is Elroy Face.  Originally a starter, he became the Pirates' bullpen "ace" for many years.  And his K/IP ratio was usually around .5 to .7... never close to a 1.0

** amazing fact: Face went 18-1 in 1959...all in relief.  He only had 10 "saves" that year, as the rule was written then.

by the Tewk on Dec 23, 2007 10:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

right
and includes lindy ncdaniel (not to mention von, literally!)

by sportsman on Dec 23, 2007 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lindy Mc Daniels
 or stu miller were the first real relief specialist I can remember for Cards, but Joe Hoerner was the best. he was the closer when the Cardinal won in 1964. I can't remember when the term closer came into being though.

by ridgesee on Dec 24, 2007 12:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Page
for the Yankees in 1949 became what would be called a closer today, only he didn't pitch just the ninth. He would often come in for an out or two in the eighth, but he was preserved for use in those two innings and to close out games.

All the sportswriters loved him and and he appeared on the covers of a lot of magazines (wearing a firemans hat) after the Yankees beat the Dodgers in the 49 series. He was Dubbed "Fireman Joe Page" by the press. He finished so many games that Allie Reynolds started that the press started refering to reynolds/page as the starting pitcher on the days that reynolds started.

I don't know how many games Page appeared in in 1949 but a lot of teams picked up on it and Jim Konstanty of the Phillies set a Major League record for 60 games in 1950. He was used just like Page was, coming in in the eighth or starting the ninth and finishing. The Phillies used up all their pitching in the last week of the season in a dog fight with the Dodgers for the NL pennant in 1950 and had to start Konstanty in the first game of the WS against the Yankees. He pitched the whole nine innings and lost 1 to 0 to (I believe Whitey Ford) but not sure. The cardinal expermented with several pitchers the same year and ended up using Harry "the cat" Brecheen mostly. He had always been a starter but was aging and couldn't go over 5 or 6 innings anymore.

by ridgesee on Dec 23, 2007 11:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was wrong,
just looked it up on Mlb player search. Joe page actually started relieving in 1747 but actually it was 1949 before he became what would be called a closer today and he set the record at 60. Konstanty became a closer in 1950 and broke his record. He had 74 appearances and that record held for some years.

by ridgesee on Dec 23, 2007 11:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I assume you meant 1947
That would be amazing if he'd been relieving in 1747 and still pitching in 1949.  Screw Satchel Paige...hmm, ironic last names there...

Anyway, Joe Page was something else.  The Yanks from those couple of decades there had some really interesting characters...Page, Ryne Duren, Billy Martin, Yogi, Stengel, etc., etc.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 24, 2007 3:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,
that would be a hell of record, wouldn't?

by ridgesee on Dec 24, 2007 11:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice article
When you adjust Qualls' stats from his Houston park to Arizona's park where Valverde pitched his stats change to.

K/BB goes from 3.12 to 3.55
HR/9 goes from 1.09 to 1.19

It seems like alot of the teams that have a setup man that is better or as good as their closer are in good shape because the setup man seems to be in more higher leverage situations due to the managers managing their bullpen in order to get the most saves possible for their closer.

vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Dec 24, 2007 2:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Closers
This discussion came up several weeks ago, and honestly this just reinforces the crazy idea that you would want to pay some guy a whole bucketload of money for a role that has historically had no real shelf-life and no predictive qualities.  Who had heard of JJ Putz, Takashi Saito, Hideki Okajima, Manny Corpas, or Jose Valverde before 06?  And yet those guys were some of the more productive relievers in baseball recently.  Furthermore, due to the tightrope that his late-inning relieving, anyone of those guys could be on the DFA list by May of 08.  In my mind, throwing 46 million at a guy because he has experience or has had good seasons in the past is just plain batshit-crazy.  

On a side note, I think that Perez should see the big club at some point this season.  He could be eased in to higher-leverage situations by working the middle innings or something, just to get work against major league hitters.  The guy has nasty stuff, but his command issues are a little scary to me.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 24, 2007 3:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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