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all-time tradee team

right after the edmonds trade went down, somebody asked me if jimmy was the best player the cards had ever traded away. probably not the best, i answered (they did trade rogers hornsby, after all), but he might be in the top 3 or top 5; i really don't know. and of course, the answer would depend partly on how we define "best." do we mean the player with the best overall career stats? the one with the best current-year stats at the time of the trade? the one who played the best after being traded away?

obviously the question merited in-depth scrutiny, and a corresponding post at VEB. to help answer it, i put together an all-traded team --- the best players at each position who the cardinals dealt away. i defined "best" as, roughly speaking, "cardinalest" --- the guys most steeped in the franchise's tradition and lore. all the guys on this list were long-term redbirds (at least 5 years w/ the franchise) and, generally, contributors to championship teams. in varying degrees, they all were or are franchise icons. so let's get going:

c     ted simmons
traded december 12, 1980, with rollie fingers and pete vukovich in exchange for sixto lezcano, lary sorensen, david green, and dave lapoint
talk about controversy . . . . simba was the face of the franchise in the 1970s, the team's best power hitter and a 6-time all-star. he had the bad luck to play in the era of great-hitting catchers (bench, fisk, munson, carter, etc.) and hence was somewhat overshadowed outside of stl, but he gave card fans something to cheer about during a bleak decade; at the time of his departure he ranked 5th on the franchise's all-time home run list and to this day ranks 6th in rbi. whitey herzog had only been the gm for a few months when he dealt this beloved 11-year cardinal away, in a trade that seemed mind-bogglingly lopsided: the cards gave up three all-stars --- their best hitter, best pitcher (vukovich), and a hall of fame relief pitcher they'd acquired only a few days before (fingers) --- for a bunch of players nobody ever heard of. in hindsight, the trade looks brilliant; herzog ended up flipping sorensen for lonnie smith, a crucial part of the '82 championship team; lapoint also contributed to that team, and then goto traded with green and others for jack clark; and lezcano was included in the package that brought ozzie smith to st louis. that course-changing trade put the cardinals on track to get younger, faster, and better defensively. but at the time, we all howled bloody murder --- it looked like herzog, a first-time gm, didn't know what the hell he was doing.
runner-up: tim mccarver, part of the most famous trade in baseball history (ie, the curt flood trade of october 7, 1969)

1b     jim bottomley
traded december 17, 1932, to cincinnati for estel crabtree and ownie carroll
i was tempted to list another herzog head-scratcher here, the june 1983 trade that sent keith hernandez to new york, but bottomley was a more significant player to the franchise. the starting first baseman on its first four pennant-winners (1926, 28, 30, and 31), sunny jim spent 11 years in st louis and remains a prominent figure on the franchise leaderboards --- 8th in batting average and homers; 9th in slugging, runs, and hits; 7th in doubles; and 3d in rbi. it was a classic branch rickey trade --- bottomley was 32 years old, past his prime but at the height of his earning power. crabtree took only 34 at-bats for the cardinals and then got sent to the minors, not returning to big-league ball for 8 years; carroll got traded a few weeks later for dazzy vance, a 42-year-old hall of fame pitcher who hung on long enough to get a world series ring w/ the gashouse gang in 1934. . . . . . . bottomley, like many an ex-cardinal of that era, came back to st louis at the end of his career to finish up his playing days with the browns.
runners-up: hernandez and johnny mize, traded by rickey at age 29 after the 1941 season to help open a spot in the lineup for a kid named musial.

2b     rogers hornsby
traded december 20, 1926 to the new york giants for frankie frisch and jimmy ring
today marks the 81st anniversary of the trade. it happened only a couple months after player-manager hornsby had led the cardinals to their first world championship; nice job, thanks a lot, now get lost. another branch rickey special --- hornsby had just turned 30 (a key treshhold in rickey's mind) and had a poor season in 1926 by his own standards --- he batted just .317 after 5 straight years at .384 or above. hornsby still had a few great years left --- he won the mvp award in 1929 and led the cubs to the nl pennant --- but frisch was 3 years younger and made less money. he played on 4 st louis pennant winners and 2 world champions, managing the gashouse gang to a world title in 1934.
runner-up: red schoendienst, dealt to the new york giants on june 14, 1956 in an 8-player deal engineered by frank "trader" lane. alvin dark and whitey lockman were the main players who came to st louis.

ss     marty marion
he actually was never traded; bill walsingham released him in october 24, 1951, after marion missed the entire 1951 season. interestingly enough, noteworthy cardinal shortstops tend to leave the franchise by means other than trade; marion was released, ozzie retired, and renteria and eckstein left via free agency. the only two who were traded were dick groat and garry templeton, and neither one really seemed to fit on this list. groat did play a big role on on championship team ('64), but he only played in st louis for 3 seasons. templeton was here for 6 years but didn't play on winning teams and left with a legacy that's more negative than positive. so i bent the rules here a little bit and chose marion, who was 32 years old at the time of the release and one of several regulars (along w/ musial, slaughter, and schoendienst) still on hand from the cards' early-40s juggernaut. but that team (not unlike the current one) had been held together too long; enos and red would follow him out the door in the ensuing years, and the team would slog through the 1950s with only The Man to remind them of the glory years. marion signed with the brownies a month or so after the cards let him go.
runner-up: templeton.

3b     ken boyer
traded october 20, 1965, to the new york mets for charley smith and al jackson
lotta parallels here to the edmonds trade. like edmonds, boyer was an almost hall-of-famer who ranks among the best fielders of all time at his position. although just a year removed from his mvp season, he was in obvious decline at the time of the trade --- barely a league-average hitter, and no longer a gold-glove defender. the breakup of the 1964 champs bears a lot of similarity to the abrupt breakup of the 2006 champs; the '64 cards were held together for one lackluster year (80-81) and then torn asunder, with the entire heart of the lineup (groat, boyer, and bill white) sent packing within an 8-day period after the 1965 season. it was particularly cruel to deal boyer to the pathetic mets. at the time he was dealt boyer ranked 4th all-time on the franchise list in games and at-bats; 5th in runs, hits, and rbi; and 2d in homers.
runner up: nobody of note.

lf     joe medwick
traded june 12, 1940, with curt davis to the brooklyn dodgers for 4 guys and $125,000 in cash.
you wanna talk salary dumps? medwick was only 28 years old, 3 years removed from a triple crown season and riding a five-year run of consecutive all-star appearances. the cardinals got four plowhorses in exchange for him; it was virtually a straight cash sale. but cut rickey some slack; the great depression was still in force, and the cardinals were richer in prospects than dollars --- enos slaughter had arrived the previous year, and stan musial was on the horizon. besides, medwick (though still shy of the deadly age-30 mark) appeared to be slipping; he hit only 14 hrs in 1939 and just 3 in the first quarter of the 1940 schedule. at the time of the trade he was slugging only .437. he bounced back (they all do) and helped the dodgers to a pennant the following year, but it was his last great season; after age 30, medwick would never again hit more than 7 homers in a year.
runner-up: chick hafey, traded on april 11, 1932 to the reds for a coupla nobodies.

cf     edmonds
traded december 15, 2007, for david freese
this is a very crowded field. the cardinals have a long tradition of outstanding centerfielders, and nearly all of them get dumped at some point. taylor douthit, the cf on the 26, 28, and 30 pennant winners, got traded to cincinnati in mid-1931 (right after he turned 30; branch rickey strikes again). curt flood, you all know about; willie mcgee got dumped in late 1990 for 3 prospects; and ray lankford was launched in august 2001 for woody williams. while the flood trade fascinates for its repercussions in the labor arena, it's a pretty interesting transaction to pick apart at a pure baseball level. the cardinals packaged up the two longest-tenured mainstays of their 1960s dynasty --- flood and mccarver, both of whom debuted in the late 1950s --- with their best relief pitcher (joe hoerner), in exchange for one very troubled superstar who couldn't play defense and couldn't stay healthy. allen got traded a year later for ted sizemore, a nice little player but a pretty scanty return on the bloc of veteran talent the cards dealt away. . . . . like the '64 team, the 67-68 team got blown apart pretty fast. within two off-seasons, the cards had parted ways with four regulars (maris, cepeda, mccarver, and flood) and a big chunk of the bench. they were back in contention from 1971-75 but always came up a pitcher or 3 short.
runner-up: flood.

rf     enos slaughter
traded april 11, 1954, to the yankees for bill virdon and a coupla throw-ins
if he hadn't missed 3 years of his prime fighting in world war ii, slaughter would rank in the franchise's all-time top 3 in nearly every counting-stat category. even with the missed time he's in the top 5 on nearly every list. he was 37 years old when the dealt him, preparing for his 14th season in st louis; he sobbed at his locker when he learned of the trade, and not even the chance to play for the 5-time-defending world champ yankees could console him. the cards got a fine player in exchange, albeit one who was still a year away; virdon won the rookie of the year award in 1955. the following year trader lane, outsmarting himself as usual, flipped virdon to pittsburgh for a couple of lesser players.
runner-up: george hendrick, traded december 12, 1984, to the pirates for john tudor.

i ran out of time and won't be able to go into the pitchers; the rotation would include dizzy dean, harry brecheen, curt simmons, and mort cooper. to get back to the original question: i'd say the "best" player the cardinals have ever traded away has got to be hornsby, with boyer edmonds slaughter and medwick in the 2 through 5 slots --- arrange them however you want.

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Sound familiar?
"like the '64 team, the 67-68 team got blown apart pretty fast. within two off-seasons, the cards had parted ways with four regulars (maris, cepeda, mccarver, and flood) and a big chunk of the bench. they were back in contention from 1971-75 but always came up a pitcher or 3 short."

Eckstein, Edmonds, Suppan, Marquis so far as regulars have parted ways, bench wise you have Miles, Bennett, Taguchi, revolving 2B door it looks like they are repeating this same strategy that they used before.

by StLHugo on Dec 20, 2007 9:34 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know it hurts...

... but I remind you of a certain lefty pitcher sento to the Phillies for a bag of baseballs...

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Dec 20, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Steve Carlton
Following a salary dispute, Carlton was traded to the Philadelphia Phillies before the 1972 season for pitcher Rick Wise.

This has to rank as one of the best players the Cards ever traded away.

Let's build for '09...

by Born in 82 on Dec 20, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

no brainer
This is a total no brainer when LB gets to the pithcing side of this post.  Gotta be the worst Cardinal trade of all time...

by BigJawnMize on Dec 20, 2007 9:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rereading the rules
As LB points out, he was looking for th "Cardinalest" factor, so maybe Carlton doesn't qualify for this list...

by BigJawnMize on Dec 20, 2007 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well,
Carlton was with the club for 5 full seasons, was on two pennant winning teams and a 3 time all-star.  He ranks 21st in Wins, 20th in ERA, 6th in Strikeouts, 23rd in IP, and 13th in shutouts.

He's gotta be atleast close to Cardinalest.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 20, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, don't get me started!
The Carlton trade occurred just a couple of years before I started following baseball in a big way, but I do clearly remember the consequences: a couple of those early-70s teams coming up 2 or 3 wins short of division titles ... all while Carlton was winning boatloads of games in Philly.  I look back on the 70s as one of the great periods of failure in Cardinal history, but when you think about it, if Lefty had been wearing the BOB, it likely would have been seen as a very good decade for us.  I'd put that trade at the top of the list of all-time Cardinal blunders.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 20, 2007 10:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Too bad the trades
for pitchers were not discussed, because the worst and best trades in Cardinals history are there. The Steve Carlton for Rick Wise trade could possibly be the world's worst trade for anybody and it without no doubt cost the a couple of pennants.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Ernie Broglio for Lou Brock trade brought a couple pennants.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 10:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Other that Carlton
and as far as position players go, I think Mize would rate the second worst trade, Slaughter and Boyer really didn't have that much left (it was late in their careers when they were traded) but Mize did, he was a genuine slugger.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 10:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
My pen name was either BigJawnMize or Simba, either would have been adequate because I was looking for someone that represented movement for the "organizational" philosophy.  

by BigJawnMize on Dec 20, 2007 11:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is probably
not worth the space but I would like someone to do a diary on the most entertaining and annoying hitters of all time. There have always been hitters that looked so smooth and others that looked so awesome that that you just loved to see them hit. My alltime two most fearsome looking hitters would be Jack Clark and Johnny Mize.

 Both just looked like they should knock the ball out of the park every at bat. I did not get to see Mize hit that much but from what I did he was the most fearsome looking hitter you ever saw and you never moved him off the plate. He would take a pitch up at his chin and just move his head enough for it to miss him; step out spit tobacco juice and knock the hell out off the next one.

Every time I see a post from you "Big Jawn" I think of him, you picked a great one. It took me a while to get used to Pujols but now I love to see him hit.
Now the most annoying looking hitter on my list would be Nomar Garciaparra. I have to make a trip to the refrigerator when he hits, I cant stand all those pitty pats he does with his feet and all that playing around with his batting gloves after every pitch. Drives me crazy and now Skip Shoemaker is starting the same things with the gloves. Forgive me for wasting space; I'm just a little weird I guess.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

two guys i can't stand:
aaron rowand and ryan howard.  Rowand looks like he's taking a dump standing up and fatty points the tip of his bat at the pitcher, which i find to be incredibly cocky (gibby would have knocked his head off if he tried that on him!)
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 20, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have been thinking,
what would have Gibson have done if somebody like Ryan Howard had done his little point the bat routine against Gibby and I am pretty sure this is the way history would have recorded it.

Gibson would have buzzed his chin about twice at 98MPH and then walked to home plate and said. "Now if you point that bat at me again, I'm going to stick the next one in your ear."  I'm reasonably sure that is what would have happened.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 7:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Wisdom of Gibson
"I actually used about nine pitches--two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a change-up, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman."

Yes this is my favorite baseball quote.

by BigJawnMize on Dec 20, 2007 7:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
Nomar IS annoying with all the swinging and tapping.  Also agree with Sleepy - Ryan Howard drives me nuts with that bat pointing thing.  I have thought (more than once) that if I were a pitcher, I would hit him every at-bat because it ticks me off.  That would help his OBP.

I will put Prince Albert on the fearsome hitter list as well. The way he just settles in and then glares at the pitcher without moving at all would strike fear in my heart on the mound.  

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 20, 2007 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone remember seeing
Mike Hargrove, "The Human Rain Delay," between pitches?  Even more tedious than Nomar.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 20, 2007 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

cardgirl,
Jim Thome, does that point the bat thing too and it always made me want to see the pitcher knock him on his butt. That is probably where Ryan Howard got it from watching Thome when he was with the Phillies.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Forgot
about him since he went to the AL.

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 20, 2007 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pointing the bat
can help out your timing a lot.

And David Eckstein is the most annoying hitter of all time not named Craig Counsell.

My boys need nothing.

by Alxfritz on Dec 21, 2007 2:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It might
help your timing, but it is still ANNOYING.

(P.S. - I think Lil' Davey will be annoying now that he is not a Cardinal because I won't be viewing him through Redbird Red lens anymore.)  

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 21, 2007 9:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The only person I have ever heard
say that is Jim Thome. I, in no way can see how pointing the bat can help timing. If I was a pitcher, I'm not going to let some nut stand up there hone all that good timing against me with such an idiotic display. I'd knock him on his ass.

by ridgesee on Dec 21, 2007 9:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
it helped my timing. Of course, I sucked, but whatever.
My boys need nothing.

by Alxfritz on Dec 21, 2007 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

First Time GMs and team Styes
I think it is interesting to look at the trades that Herzog made in his first couple years.  Hell this might be worth its own post, just to help people understand where Mo is at in his career.  Herzog had a plan, a vision,  that revolved around fast and defensively capable players.  He went out and implimented that plan against the prevailing wisdom of the day.  

Mo and Lu are a little different in that there plan is currently about player development and not about a style of bseball that their team will employ.  I really don't know what their vision is yet.  Are they going to focus on groundball machines for pitchers and put more of an emphasis of everday players with defensive ability?  Who knows.  I think there are pretty defined players that a team needs to win a world series--two aces pitchers and a lights out pen (which the birds might have by 2009) are very important but the type of play that gets you through the other 162 games to the playoffs is just as important and this is the area that I want some insight on.

by BigJawnMize on Dec 20, 2007 9:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yep, I remember there was a
lot of head-scratching in the early days of Whitey.  That series of trades before the 1982 season was puzzling, terrifying and yet exciting.  I hope Moz has that kind of boldness in him.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 20, 2007 10:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Already Done
Pip discussed the Herzog era a coupla weeks ago.
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 20, 2007 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the nice link
But may I add a few more key pieces to the puzzle Whitey assembled that assembled that resulted in the '82 crown

in no particular order

  • cf Tony Scott to Htn for Joaquin Andujar
  • lhp Bob Sykes to the Yankees for AA OF Willie McGee
  • the three team deal that sent P Silvio Martinez to the Tribe, someone to Philly and Lonnie Smith to the Cards
  • the signings of Dane Iorg, Jim Kaat, Mark Littell and Steve Braun
Whitey should be in the Hall for that three year masterful roster shuffle alone

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did a little surfing research
  • the three team deal sent Sorenson/Martinez to Indians who sent C Bo Diaz to Phils who flipped Lonnie to Cards
  • Iorg (some thought he was MVP of 82 series) was not acquired by Herzog....already hanging out since 77....Kaat also a Card prior to Whitey having been purchased in April of 80
  • Whitey did pick up key relievers Doug Bair and Jeff Lahti in seprate deals with Reds - both turned out to be a great set-up guys for Sutter
and of course the obvious wisdom to trust minor leaguers Herr, Oberkfell and super-sub Ramsey.

while we're at it....let's not forget cameos from two of my favorites - Tito Landrum & Gene Roof

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

in less than 3 years - Mo take note!
Out
  • Simmons
  • Kennedy
  • Durham
  • Tyson
  • Reitz
  • Scott
  • Vuckovich
  • Sykes
  • Fingers
  • Sorenson
  • Martinez
In
  • L Smith
  • O Smith
  • McGee
  • Porter
  • Tenace
  • Mura
  • Andujar
  • LaPoint
  • Littell
  • Lahti
  • Bair
  • Sutter
Doesn't look like an even trade but it sure won a World Championships......

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post, LB
Even if it does show some incredible blunders made by the Birds' FO over the years. I had forgotten how many of those trades went down, especially how freaked out I (and everybody I knew) was about St. Whitey's first big splash. We all thought this Herzog dude was gonna be a disaster! If there had been a VEB back then, you can bet we'd have been reading lots and lots of posts about how baseball-stupid and out-of-touch with fans Whitey was. All in all, this shows we need to give Mo a chance. What he's doing may be the harbinger of many contending teams to come, a death knell, or a sign of 50's and 70's mediocrity returning home to roost again. We won't know for awhile. Believe me, nobody thought Whitey had a plan at all. Trading Simba!! Pure blasphemy at the time.  

by rockin redbird on Dec 20, 2007 10:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

"Freaked out"...
My father and I felt the same about the Boyer trade, and then, after Bill White et al were traded, I questioned whether the PTB knew what they were doing. As far as Hernandez goes, wouldn't you figure that his involvement in that whole cocaine deal was a determining factor in his trade?
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 20, 2007 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Hernandez liked
to sit in the dugout and work crossword puzzles during batting practice and that was the straw that broke the camels back with Whitey. I read or heard somewhere that when Whitey told Keith he had been traded to the Mets, he said, "Now you can go work your crossword puzzles in New York." Don't know if that's true though..seems like it was Mike Shannon I heard say that on KMOX one night on a broadcast from his restarant after a Cards game when he was talking about old times with some guests.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cocain Straw
Was the last straw

by gonzostl on Dec 20, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
I remember my dad being royally pissed off about the Boyer trade too. I was only five at the time, so I don't recall it personally, but he talked about that with disdain for years. As for Mex, I wasn't as freaked out as I was by the Simba trade, just kinda sad--pretty much how I felt about JEd these past few days. Totally different circumstances, but the same hole in my baseball heart. I guess what connects them in my mind is that, regardless of the circumstances or the sadness, I knew deep down it was for the best: JEd is probably done and wanted out; Whitey wouldn't deal with Mex's drug and personal habits. So it goes. All we can do is say "Onward!" and hope to hell Mo has a good plan we just don't know about yet.

by rockin redbird on Dec 20, 2007 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Too true
Even though it makes me sad to see Jimmy Baseball go, I know that it is probably for the best.  As someone said the other day, watching his decline was painful and now we don't have to see it happening.  But I wonder how Padre fans are going to view Jimmy.  They won't be seeing him through the rosy lens of all the great memories like Cardinal fans saw him.  

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 20, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also true
I hope they're not dicks if he doesn't have a huge rebound. If he does, I'll gladly eat the crow from the gang of Padre fans I personally know (0).

by rockin redbird on Dec 21, 2007 1:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wish I had a better memory
but age has taken its toll on me.  I'm pretty certain, however, that the Simmons trade {which is definitely in the top three of my 'personal' Cardinal fan heart-breaks, possibly # one} has a lot of similarities to the Edmonds situation.... AND, ironically, I believe Hernandez was indirectly involved.

To wit, by 1980, Simba was coming to be seen as a near liability, defensively, behind the plate.  NOT to the Mike Piazza stage, but clearly his arm strength and the effect on his (already slow) running were factors... SUCH that, management (i.e. Whitey) wanted to find a new position for Teddy.

There was the idea (Whitey whispering to Simba) that the team would dump HERNANDEZ, who, --despite a legit MVP year in '79 and arguably the slickest defensive 1B in Cardinal history-- Whitey disliked intensely.
Simmons himself, however, balked at this.  Not so much because he was resistent to giving up catching, but SPECIFICALLY because he did not want the onus of replacing Keith at first base -- where he would surely suffer, defensively, by comparison.  I definitely remember Teddy saying (some time after the fact maybe) that he could not stomach the idea of being booed by the fans, or in any way ruining what had been a solid love affair with Cards' fans up to that point.

* In general, I do not remember any acrimony on the part of Simba, when we traded him to the Braves.  Not that he wanted to go, but, a'la' Edmonds, he was ok with it.

** Ironically, a few years later Hernandez was peddled along anyway.

by the Tewk on Dec 21, 2007 1:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Medwick
Medwick arguably went into decline because of one of the more infamous beanings in ML history.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Joe_Medwick_1911

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 20, 2007 11:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know we all hated him
but he was our best young prospect and he has gone on to have an above average career (something he was having here in St. Louis).

JD Drew.  He was Top 20 All-time in HRs in franchise history when he was traded.  We got the good end of that deal, although, it has been a revolving door in the OF since he left.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 20, 2007 11:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting stuff!
Jumpin' into the "Waybac" machine... Cards fans hung black crepe-paper on then-owner Sam Breadon's car dealership and his home after the Hornsby-for-Frisch (and pitcher Jimmy Ring) swap! The deal was made for personal, rather than baseball, reasons; "The Rajah" had worn out his welcome with Breadon DESPITE managing and playing the Cards to their FIRST World Series title!

According to the late Bob Broeg's Redbirds: A Century of Cardinals Baseball (River City Publishers, 1981), Breadon saw the club's attendance INCREASE from 681,575 to 763,613 in 1927. Frisch set a record for most chances fielded by a non-1Bman (1037), struck out TEN times in 617 at-bats, stole 48 bases, got 208 hits, drove in 78 runs, and batted .337. Hornsby belted 26 homers, hit .361, and drove in 125 runs in '27 for the Giants... and was traded again before the '28 season because he couldn't get along with Giants' ownership/management!

Broeg quoted Breadon as saying, "I knew then that it was the ball club that counted. I never again feared trading a player. But of all the players I ever had, the greatest was Frank Frisch of 1927."

Frisch, of course, established himself as a Cardinals' all-timer as player/manager of the Gas House Gang... imagine trying to ride herd on "Dizzy" Dean, "Pepper" Martin, Leo Durocher, and "Ducky" Medwick, among others!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 20, 2007 11:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

interesting
great history lesson.....thanks

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great posts all around...
Great reading from lBoros and VEB historians. I echo, thanks.
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 21, 2007 7:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post!
I have been thinking of something similar, but have been a little daunted by the research requirements.  I am curious to know the best 25-man roster that could be compiled of currently active players originally drafted and signed by the Cardinals.

I know who the 1B would be, the 2B would likely be Placido Polanco.  I guess the SS would be Jack Wilson and I don't have a clue if there are any currently active 3Bs who were drafted by the Cardinals.  The catcher would have to be Yadi.

The OF would be pretty thin with Duncan, Drew, and ???  I guess you could count Ankiel even though he was not drafted as an OF.  Pitching would pretty much start and end with Dan Haren since Wainer doesn't count as he was a Braves signee.  I guess Looper was a Cards pick.

If anyone can help fill this out I would be grateful.

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 20, 2007 11:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Coco Crisp in the OF
Daric Barton will be the DH.  Polanco at 3B and Kennedy at 2B?  It ain't a stellar group, to be sure.

by chuckb on Dec 20, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching
Would include Matt Morris and (I guess) Anthony Reyes.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 20, 2007 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sadly, you got most of them
it's kind of depressing how bad our drafts have been over the years.  Might consider putting albert in the OF and Daric Barton at 1B (or vice versa) and adding ryan freel (yikes), and I guess Brad Thompson rounds out the pitching list.
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 20, 2007 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All draft pick lineup
CF - Coco Crisp
LF - Chris Duncan
1B - Albert Pujols
RF - JD Drew
3B - Placido Polanco
C - Yadier Molina
2B - Adam Kennedy
P - Pitcher
SS - Jack Wilson

Rotation
SP - Matt Morris
SP - Braden Looper
SP - Anthony Reyes
SP - Dan Haren
SP - Brad Thompson

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 20, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love Placido Polanco
but I think he's a 2B.  I say that primarily to emphasize the total lack of 3Bs developed by the Cardinals.  Of course, if Albert had a healthy elbow then, but wait...who would play first if Albert moved across the diamond?  
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 20, 2007 10:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols to 3B
Duncan to 1B
Ankiel to LF
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 21, 2007 1:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
that is a REALLY bad team.  Also underscored how long the Cards farm system has been really bad.  Can that really be the best list of guys we've drafted?

by siddfynch on Dec 20, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The picture....
of 37-yr-old Enos "Country" Slaughter crying his eyes out at his Cardinals locker after giving three of his best years to fight in WWII is a moving image...

if ever a guy should have been untradeable, it should have been him....

by siddfynch on Dec 20, 2007 1:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

But Slaughter did
finish with a good year for the Yankees; had some big hits down the stretch for them and had  a Good World Series if I'm remembering right. Mize also finished his career with the Yankees and put on quite a display of power in Yankee stadium. He also had a Big World Series for them; A year before Slaughter, I believe..not sure.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who did we get
for ol' Enos anyway?
I always thought it was Sal (the Barber) Maglie and Irv Noren... but those two weirdnesses (ex-Yankees)came a few years later.
Your memory gets muddled when you get old.

*by the way, is there a clean, simple web place to find historic "trade" information??

by the Tewk on Dec 21, 2007 1:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Slaughter Trade
From his page at thebaseballcube.com:
Apr 11,1954 - Traded by Cardinals to Yankees for Emil Tellinger, Mel Wright and Bill Virdon.

Virdon went on to have a 12-year career, mostly with the Pirates. Wright made the majors in a relief capacity for two seasons with the Cardinals. Tellinger never made it to the show.

Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 21, 2007 2:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great History Lesson
If that many of the great Card Players were traded before retirement, which ones ever made it to finish their careers with the the BOB?  Can you name the all time Retired as Birds Team?

by Birds on the Bat on Dec 20, 2007 2:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
Musial OF
Brock OF
McGwire 1B
Ozzie SS
Gibson SP

That is my quick and dirty list, still needs lost of positions but those I figured were locks.

by StLHugo on Dec 20, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

here are a few
pagnozzi c
frisch 2b
pepper martin & mike shannon 3b
walker rf
tudor sp
kile sp
henke closer
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Dec 20, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Forsch
Such a shame that Bob Forsch spent 15 seasons in a Cards uni, then retired in his 16th as an Astro.  

by siddfynch on Dec 20, 2007 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like Red Schoendenst
came back and finished with Cards after playing for Giants and Braves but can't verify cause hell, I can't spell his name.

by ridgesee on Dec 20, 2007 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, the Redhead
returned to the BOB as a pinch-hitter; went straight to the coaching staff when he retired as a player, and took over for Johnny Keane as manager in 1965.

The Cards also brought Bill White and Willie McGee back as bench players... McGee turned into a heckuva pinch-hitter in his later days...

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 20, 2007 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ray Lankford...
Not exactly the most dignified exit, thanks to Tony and co, as he was forcibly retired despite putting up decent numbers (but oh no! He struck out a lot).

Often overlooked, he is definitely an all time Cardinal great in my book.

by DiscoJer on Dec 20, 2007 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lankford tore up Cincinnati
because that is my closest venue, most of the Cardinal games that I have been fortunate enough to attend at the ballpark has been in Cincy.  
An honest compilation, by ME, of the most productive Cardinal I ever saw (live at the park)... the winner would be Ray Lankford.  Defensively, too... he made several nice catches that I have witnessed.

However, on TV he sometimes sucked (sorry).

I agree he got some raw treatment, e.g. he had a very fine over-looked season the year McGwire was bopping 70 homers.

by the Tewk on Dec 21, 2007 2:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The list
starts and ends with Stan the Man, as far as I'm concerned. Not even Albert will ever reach the idolatry and pure love that Musial received(and still does). Unfortunately, he is often an afterthought when all-time great teams are compiled, because he was one of those guys who just went out and did his job, without any flash or flare.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 21, 2007 2:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Post and further thoughts
  • yeah, Drew belongs on the list
  • Carlton was traded because of Gussie's stinginess and inability to see the the inevitable.....a trait he held onto until Whitey changed his mind (a little) over cards, braunschweiger and cold Bud at the mansion....and Whitey walked away with total operational control, talk about a poker player....but, he delivered too!
  • Whitey made some great trades but it's interesting to note thru lboros post that he was lucky too......several of his big players (Simmons, Templeton, Hernandez) were made not out of genius but desperation.....Whitey bet wrong that Simba would play left field, Tempy and Keith had to go
  • for sentimental reasons, I would suggest that Ken Reitz (given to the Cubs) was a person of note at third base

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 3:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

more on Whitey
someone should break down the trades and FA signings of Whitey from 1979 to 1982.....a masterful job of transforming a plodding roster into a World Champion in a few short months.....truly amazing.....back in the day when trades held power over FA  

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trades
I wish the CBA was structured to encouraged more trades...

by BigJawnMize on Dec 20, 2007 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why Drew
who categorizes him as a great player?  Certainly not St. Louis, L.A., or Boston.

by sdrone on Dec 20, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why?
I don't believe Drew and "Great" fall into the same sentence ala Carlton, et al but he probably does belong in the same conversation as Hernandez, Tempy and other good players who were traded

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Drew
sure did come up big for the Sawks in this year's WS though. Seemed like he got a hit damn near every at-bat in a couple of those games.

by rockin redbird on Dec 20, 2007 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

couple of notes
I think Chick Hafey was traded/dumped due to a salary dispute.

For CF, don't forget about Willie McGee.

by juggler on Dec 20, 2007 3:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What?
No Tino Martinez?

(I kid.)

by Robb on Dec 20, 2007 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Simmons trade
IIRC, Bob Forsch says Whitey had no plans to move Simmons to the outfield. He just wasn't totally thrilled with his clubhouse demeanor and felt he was a good trading chip.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 20, 2007 3:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
And perhaps true with Whitey being the poker player he was - may well have created a lf diversion.  It was no secret that Whitey had a strong preference for big time defensive catchers and it was also no secret that Simmons never much went out of his way to make sure people liked him - easy to see how those two didn't hit it off - especially with Whitey's favorite (Porter) available

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 4:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ted
was a line drive machine.....the only question was whether they were hit at someone and how far around the bases his smoke stained lungs would carry him

by Hinkster on Dec 20, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Read Nine Innings by Daniel Okrent
It has an exhaustive breakdown of the Simmons trade and the other facets of constructing those great Brewer teams of the early 1980s.

Simmons contract demands played a large part in his trade.

by flynn on Dec 20, 2007 10:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

top of the rotation
Actually should be Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown dealt to the Cubs of all teams in December 1903 in perhaps the Cardinals all-time worst trade.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brownmo01.shtml

by vances law on Dec 20, 2007 5:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Badge of honor
Maybe it is a badge of honor to be traded away for your last couple of years.  I can think of a couple of pretty good players with long associations with their home time who were traded for cash/trash at the end of an illustrious career -- to whit, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Eddie Matthews, Willie McCovey, or Jimmy Foxx, for instance -- Edmonds should be proud to be in such company.

by brdsnbt on Dec 20, 2007 5:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

These are the posts I really enjoy
Great fun taking a trip down memory lane.  Who knew that Simmons deal would turn out so well.

Still Edmunds for Freese -- not good.

by The Duke on Dec 20, 2007 6:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Herzog 's Dealings
Herzog certainly did great, but one thing in is favor is the Cardinals ALREADY had a lot of talented players to start with - all Herzog really did was RECONFIGURE the talent.  A lot of talent flowed OUT of St. Louis in return.

Look at all the guys who departed in Herzog's first month or two:

C Terry Kennedy - Thought of very highly at the time.

C Ted Simmons - Everyone knows about him.  

1B Leon Durham - Also thought of very highly, and had decent career.

SP Pete Vukovich - Cy Young Award Winner after traded.

RP Rollie Fingers - Just passed thru, but HOF Reliver.

C Jody Davis and RP Roy Thomas - Lost in Rule 5 draft due to roster squeeze of trades.  Davis became a good C for the Cubs, and Thomas remained a decent major league reliever for Toronto.

RP George Frazier - Had 10 year ML career.

RP Al Olmstead - Just 23 years old, coming off good rookie year.

C Steve Swisher - Major League backup C.

IF Mike Philips - Major League Utility IFer

RP John Littlefield - Decent reliever.

SP John Urrea - Had bounced back to a league average reliever after great rookie year in '77

3B Ty Waller- Thought of as a prospect

RP Kim Seaman - Thought to be potential decent lefty reliever.

and the following year he traded:

SS Gary Templeton
SP Larry Sorenson
SP Silvio Martinez
CF Tony Scott
RF Sixto Lezcano
RP Luis DeLeon
RP Jim Gott - Lost in Rule 5
RP Donnie Moore - Future Closer
RP Mike Stanton
SP Bob Shirely

I'm sorry, but "Mo" doesn't have that much talent to work with....

by KJOK on Dec 21, 2007 12:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

No doubt...
which is especially why we should give Mo some room. He's got a much tougher set of choices with less wiggle. I'm not gonna declare him a failure till at least the second week of the actual season ;-)

by rockin redbird on Dec 21, 2007 1:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Donnie Moore
I had no idea he was ever a Cardinal.
My boys need nothing.

by Alxfritz on Dec 21, 2007 2:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitchers
There was also David Foutz and Bob Caruthers...
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 21, 2007 2:46 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

one other trade
that is worth mentioning and I really hated it at the time. That was Bobby Tolan for Vada Pinson. BOB got the worst of that.  Pinson was an old aging star and didn't do much for STL while Tolan put together some solid years for Cincy. He was also a fine defensive CF.

by ridgesee on Dec 21, 2007 10:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Addition to All-time -trade list?
Andy Van Slyke being traded to Pittsburgh for Pena has always left a sour taste in my mouth. He might not be an all time great, but his career with the Pirates was good enough to warrant a little regret on our part.

by jedmoon on Dec 21, 2007 6:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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