spending the edmonds dividend
the news that jim edmonds asked for this trade has done little to stop the angry recriminations over it. there are still plenty of people out there --- including a few who e-mailed me yesterday --- who insist that thte deal was born of dewitt's money-grubbing and/or mozeliak's stupidity. the truth, we now know, is that the front office was planning to do exactly what the fans wanted --- keep edmonds around for one last hurrah, let him retire a cardinal --- but jimmy didn't want to stay in a diminished role.
he did the cardinals a favor, forcing them to make a beneficial move they otherwise wouldn't have made (perhaps because they feared the fan backlash). the trade netted them a not-inconsequential prospect (more on that below) and $6m to spend on a player who probably will be more impactful on the win column in 2008 than edmonds would have been. the onus is now on the front office to put the money back into the roster; if they don't, the angry talk about salary dumping will be somewhat justified. but they also need to spend it wisely --- ie, in a fashion that's consistent w/ their commitment to player development. so what should the cards do with the edmonds dividend? i can think of a couple possibilities:
spend it on pitching. this is the obvious way to go. the cards already were in the market for pitchers and, having failed to swing a trade, were beginning to sort through the junk on the free-agent market. but their budget would only allow for one acquisition; now they might be able to squeeze in two, which changes the calculus. mozeliak had previously ruled out high injury risks --- with $17m already tied up in mulder and carpenter, the cards need stability above all else, so mo focused on healthy but mediocre (or worse) guys who could be relied upon to consume innings. josh fogg typifies this class of pitchers. but the edmonds dividend allows them to gamble on a second pitcher with great downside risk but high upside. edmonds' departure leaves the payroll at about $95m, so there's $10m to $15m in the till; that should be enough to acquire one dependable innings-eater (josh towers is my favorite in this class) and roll the dice on somebody like bartolo colon or jason jennings. the number of pitchers in this category is large --- colon, jennings, freddy garcia, john lieber, matt clement, rodrigo lopez, mark prior, and kris benson all fit the description. the cards ought to be able to land one of them on a short-term deal, and if they do then in essence they will have traded edmonds for a prospect and (let's say) bartolo colon; you can't expect a better return on the shell of a one-time superstar.
spend it on another outfielder who isn't quite as washed up as edmonds. admittedly, this would kind of defeat the purpose --- why replace one old, expensive outfielder with another? but with edmonds gone, the dean of the cardinal outfield corps is chris duncan, who has all of 665 career at-bats; ludwick has 637, schumaker 177, ankiel 172, and barton 0. aside from duncan (who can't actually play the position), any of the st louis outfielders might prove to be a complete bust --- indeed, the odds are that at least one of them will. this is not a big deal if the cardinals are content to write off the whole season to player development, but if they want to give themselves even a remote shot of contending then it might be prudent to add one veteran to the cast --- provided said veteran a) is available on a one-year deal, b) willing to accept the part-time role that edmonds rejected; and c) can still hit. milton bradley fit this description to a tee, but he's no longer available (i just can't let this one go . . . . ). in a pure baseball sense, the most logical fit still on the market is kenny lofton; i don't like the little jerk at all, but he is still a very productive offensive player and he'd give the cardinals a real leadoff man (their best in over a decade). but he's a mismatch for this organization personalitywise, which makes him an unlikely pickup. ditto barry bonds, for reasons i need not enumerate. geoff jenkins would be a logical fit, but reports are that he's bound for either san diego or philadelphia. so who's left? shannon stewart and shawn green are out there, but neither one is any better than the players already on hand. but there are a few guys who i would consider defensible pickups --- again, under the caveats outlined above. one is brad wilkerson, hampered by injury the last two seasons but still pretty young (30) and blessed with good plate discipline and decent power. if he's available on a one-year deal, i like him. another possibility would be luis gonzalez, who has expressed strong interest in playing in st louis and, even at age 40, can still reliably get on base. he put up an ops of almost .800 in dodger stadium last year and might be handy to have around in case one of the young players fails or gets injured. and finally there's corey patterson, who is the same age as skip schumaker but vastly more talented --- more power, more speed, better defender, better arm. if he could simply muster a .330 on-base percentage, this guy would be quite a valuable player. alas, his single-season high in obp is .329, and his career average is .298 . . . . you don't want this guy playing for you every day, and you don't want him taking at-bats away from rasmus or barton. but as a depth guy --- a part-time player who can run, play defense, and pop the ball out of the park --- he wouldn't do any harm. and there's always the remote chance he puts it all together and posts an .800 ops for you.
however the cardinals spend the $6m, that return will get added to the value the cards have already received in exchange for edmonds, david freese. frustrated jed fans are dismissing this guy as a piece-a-shit prospect, which isn't fair; he'll never be a star, but he has a decent chance of delivering a few seasons of league-average offense. at least, that's what PECOTA thinks; it projects .260ish equivalent averages (.260 is the definition of league average) for this player through his age 28 season. for the sake of comparison, the list of 3bmen with .260ish eqas last season included scott spiezio, casey blake, eric chavez, and scott rolen. a guy of that ilk who makes the league minimum is a valuable player. BP translates freese's 2007 minor-league line into a major-league equivalent of .245 / .325 / .384 and an eqa of .249; the average big-league 3d baseman had an eqa of .269 last year and a line of .274 / .346 / .445. so freese has a ways to go before he becomes league average for his position. but he's not that far off; there's a reasonable chance he will get there with another year or two of development.
yesterday erik did a comparison between freese and allen craig, the cards' leading incumbent 3b prospect; nice bit of contexting. i'll augment that from an eqa perspective --- these are major-league translations:
| age | avg | obp | slg | eqa | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| craig | 22 | .269 | .321 | .469 | .267 |
| freese | 24 | .245 | .325 | .384 | .249 |
craig is still the better prospect; better performance at a younger age. but depth is a good thing.
0 recs |
118 comments
Comments
My alternative
by vinniefromjersey on Dec 17, 2007 9:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
This and Eckstein...
by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Eck would have likely accepted
by Zubin on Dec 17, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute...
by liam on Dec 17, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
Zubin you are right in that he could have accepted and got more money than what he got from the Blue Jays but at the time it was thought that he was looking for more years. I don't know which move was correct--but it is a gamble that I would have been willing to take. For a chance at a another draft pick. Shoot we could have just waited on Izturis and let this play out, he wasn't going anywhere and if he did we could have just given the job to Ryan...
by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm glad they didn't offer
with izturis as his only competition, ryan might well claim the everyday job in spring training, and at the very least, he'll get 1/3 of the starts. so we're going to get a) better defense, and b) a better look at our young player. i'd rather have that than 1 year of eckstein.
by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dead horse
by indakind on Dec 17, 2007 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
killing it till it dies from it
At the end of the season, they asked his agent if Eckstein was willing to sign a 1-year, or 2-year, deal. The answer was No.
The day they signed Izturis, Mozeliak called Eckstein's agent and asked again: we just want to make sure. Would you consider a 1-year, or 2-year deal. The answer: No.
That's why.
Eckstein's agent completely misread the market and botched it for his client. I don't think playing in Toronto on a 1-year deal was David's ultimate goal.
But when you go around asking for 4 years, 36 million ... if you are so far out of touch from reality, I guess this is what happens.
the cardinals did offer the guy 3 and 21 in the spring.
There is no blame to put on the cardinals on this one. None.
--B
If he wasn't willing to take a two year deal at the time, saying that he would accept arbitration might be a reach
by Dave Barry on Dec 17, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bad logic here
Based on all the published reports, e.g., that they offered Eck a two-year deal, the comments that they didn't want to wait on Izturis, etc., it seems the main motivation was that they didn't want to wait for Eck to decline arbitration. So, essentially, they valued one year of Izturis over the draft pick. This makes no sense to me, and if true I think it indicates major flaws in the Cards' decision-making process. That is really the big concern here, and the reason for the ongoing debate.
I'm afraid the only other alternative is that Cards management have essentially been disseminating a lot of misinformation via the P-D to hide their real intentions, but that seems unlikely to me in this case as it would have to involve a pretty dedicated campaign of deception. It's not as if some surprise move has come to fruition here. So it really does seem as if there have been a number of questionable decisions made without any obvious broader plan, other than the vague goal of "building from within."
by apack on Dec 17, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
i don't care how much money the club spends, but I would like to see a good product on the field eventually
a supplemental round pick is a very valuable tool. recent notables to be drafted in the supplemental round include huston street, clay bucholtz, travis buck, luke hochevar, jed lowrie and our own tyler herron just to name a few
by Dave Barry on Dec 17, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
leadership
Again, is it any wonder that Antonetti didn't want to come here?
by apack on Dec 17, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i would agree w/ you
by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
TLR going forward
by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
leadership (again)
Signing Miguel Cairo was Jockety's mistake, not Tony's...though Tony compounded the mistake by playing him instead of using the time to more thoroughly evaluate Ryan.
by apack on Dec 17, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no
by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
eck and arb
by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You present offering him arb
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Giving Mo some credit...
For the team it would have been a gamble. In retrospect Mo made the correct decision. He probably had inside knowledge of the market for Eck and made his call based on that. Mind you I still would rather trot Ryan out there for 120 games than watch Izturis...
by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw that info
by jroman on Dec 17, 2007 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't say
by MikeG on Dec 17, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Yes, Yes
http://ussmariner.com/2007/10/24/the-hidden-gem-of-free-agent-pitchers/
If he pans out you could flip him at the deadline for prospects.
by mikedallas23 on Dec 17, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it...
I'd rather do that than spend it on an injured starting pitcher or an OFer who might not be much better than what we already have.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
real trade
by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 9:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder & paying for draft choices..
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/024257.php
Click through the link to read the post..
Interesting stuff.
Boomer.
by glamboomer on Dec 17, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very Interesting Stuff
[S]ometimes opening the pocketbook on draft day can be the most fiscally responsible move a team can make.
This Melissa Lockard may have a a firmer grasp on the intricacies of the game than Walt Jocketty.
Looking forward to this summer, when we'll find out how Mo wants his high-round picks used.
by liam on Dec 17, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think she overreaches
"It is hard to know exactly what the A's are going to get out of this package, but it is not unreasonable to think that the team will get at least one starting outfielder, one starting pitcher, one reliever and a fourth outfielder or DH out of this group".
So out of the six, FOUR are going to be useable major league players?
Not very likely.
Out of every 100 players drafted, about 15 make it to the majors--or roughly a 15% success rate. Of those 15%, about 15% have a one year career, and another 15% have a two year career. So perhaps 12 out of 100 players have more than a cup of coffee in the big leagues.
Yet, of the six guys the A's get, they are going to have a 67% success rate--versus probably 12% overall?
No, not very likely.
But if you are going to run the numbers and drafting, let's talk J.D. Drew.
The Cards got 5 years of J.D. Drew, then traded him (and dumped Eli) for King, Marquis, and Wainwright. They've had four years of starters from Wainwright and Marquis (three good ones) and rights to Wainwright for four more years, three years of relief (two from King, one from Wainwright), along with two years from Miles (we can bypass Bigbie).
Dave
by Sydney dave on Dec 17, 2007 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your take...
First, in your 15% you are taking into account guys drafted in the 408th rd. Also, the guys that OAK received have a bit of a track record.
I'd say they'll get closer to a 67% return than the 15% you suggested.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But Sydney Dave is spot on
The A's didn't trade for 6 random draft picks, though, like you said. These are (the four she's talking about) good-to-great prospects.
by liam on Dec 18, 2007 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But we got burned with that strategy too
by Valatan on Dec 18, 2007 4:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we'll know in five years
Dan Symmborski at http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/diamondbacks_acquired_haren_traded_valve rde/
says the following about the trade:
"For the first part of the trade, the Arizona-Oakland one, I like this trade from both sides. The A's simply aren't good enough to catch the Angels this season and not good enough to catch 2 of New York-Boston-Detroit-Cleveland, so, as Beane hinted at the end of the season, they're going to rebuild here. They better be as that's the only justification for letting Haren, who's signed cheaply for 3 more years, leave town. This does a good job at filling out some of the holes in the minors for the green-and-gold and while none except for Gonzalez are real impact prospects, the A's need to fish for a real impact hitter and they've been very good at developing solid starters out of a mass of pitching prospects. Gonzalez isn't ready this year and Carter won't be ready for a couple, but the A's have 1B-DH-OF options to sort through the next few years anyway. Same issue with Cunningham - they're going to also play him at AAA while they sort out the aforementioned options. So they gamble that one of Eveland-Smith-Anderson becomes a solid pitcher and come out ahead on the deal if it works out. You have to give credit for Beane for discipline - when the time comes to rebuild, no half ass "OK, we'll take lesser prospects if you throw in a guy who's a major leaguer!"
I'd say his take on these prospects is a lot dimmer than the writer, or some of the comments here. Besides, if these were really prime prospects, the Snakes would have traded two or three, not six of them.
If the A's got two real players out of the six, they'd probably say they got a good deal. But writing that four of the six will contribute is a big reach, IMO.
But like I say, we won't know for another five years.
Dave
by Sydney dave on Dec 18, 2007 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where is Barden...
As always, your take on sensitive matters such as this trade is spot on.
by cardzfanbub on Dec 17, 2007 9:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The forgotten
Barden has 2 options remaining.
by cariocacardinal on Dec 17, 2007 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
barden's translated line at triple A
by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dice rolls
by moboiler on Dec 17, 2007 9:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why?
by sdrone on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if i remember right
by moboiler on Dec 17, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Prior
There is the added issue that his mechanics are pretty awful however you look at it. He wasn't aggressive with his lower half or with his finish, which take a little bit of stress off of your arm. More importantly, his arm action wasn't very good. Combine all of that with being abused by Baker, and the dude is spent.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 17, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mench
combination of duncan/ankiel/spiezio/schumaker vs. righties
combination of mench/barton/spiezio/ankiel vs. lefties.
by dmb60614 on Dec 17, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yup
by rockin the red on Dec 17, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I vote Wilkerson.
When he was with the Nationals he hit leadoff (although, admittedly, the Nats didn't have ANYONE else who could) and did a creditable job, not to mention playing CF.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 9:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
is wilkerson really still a CF?
by giveml on Dec 17, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would never put him in CF,
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he bats left-handed
by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought
Thank you, Jim.
I wish your glove was enough to get you in the HOF.
by nybirdfan on Dec 17, 2007 9:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
And I don't care if Freese ends
Geez, I'm showing my age when I bring Mike Ivie into it.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
freese ... catcher
Apparently he was sent to the fall instructional league as a catcher this year:
http://forum.signonsandiego.com/archive/index.php/t-77950.html
by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sold on Freese
The other thing that I don't like is that he's not the type of player that the Cardinals could move with other prospects to get a bona-fide big league player.
I'm not upset with the trade as a whole, I'm actually glad to see that the young guys in the OF are going to get a chance to play and show what they can do. I'm not sure what the Padres really think they're getting -- unless Jimmy makes a dramatic resurgence next season they're going to be much worse off than if they had re-signed Mike Cameron. I loved watching Jimmy as a Cardinal, but even the casual fan can see that he's been done for a couple of years now. I don't see him putting up an OPS much higher than .650 when he's playing his home games at Petco.
by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 10:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I want to see them trade Rolen
by Red Blazer on Dec 17, 2007 10:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hammy
by StLHugo on Dec 17, 2007 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops.
by Red Blazer on Dec 17, 2007 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big huge whoops...
Somehow we've all forgotten Joe Mather as a possible platoon solution to NOT signing Kenny "le' freak" Lofton, Patterson or Gonzalez, tho Gonzalez presence in the dug out would be a real solid for this team ...along with a little less power but more BB and fewer SOs than Wilkerson.
Why sign any of these guys if it appears so certain to some here that Rasmus is mid season and Barton is a future star.
by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did I mention I agree re:
by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Upside
by Recon on Dec 17, 2007 10:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
As far as the organization...
I don't want to see Lofton in a Cardinal uniform, but if they're going to sign a veteran player, he's definitely the guy I'd look at. He can lead-off, which fills a huge need on the current ballclub, and he gives the ballclub options at the deadline next year when he can be moved to a contending ballclub for a prospect or draft picks to make room for Colby Rasmus to get some AB's in the last two months. Economically he makes the most sense for the ballclub if the focus is on the future but the club wants to remain competitive next season.
by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 10:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn't we
by cardsrul on Dec 17, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
POS?
That being said, it looks like he can really hit at the A ball level, but why wasn't he promoted to AA last year? It's not like the Padres system is brimming with top prospects at the AA and AAA levels. If he goes to Springfield this year and knocks the cover off of it I'll be tickled. But what does the organization do if he doesn't? Do we stand by a 25 year old that hasn't shown he can hit at the AA level when you have another, better, younger prospect behind him that plays the same position?
Depth is a good thing and I'm all for having competition in the minors, but that doesn't mean I have to be sold on a guy who's never had a AA or AAA at-bat. It's the sad state of our farm system that makes this kid a top 10 prospect in the Cardinal system because he isn't on any of the top 100 lists that I've seen.
Who's to say that the kid ever gets a major league at-bat? He might be another Tagg Bozied...look at Tagg's numbers in A+ ball -- awfully similar to Freese for around the same number of AB's.
by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fourstick, freese wasn't promoted to AA
it's been suggested that the cards might move freese straight to triple A this year, skipping double A; or they might accelerate his promotion, giving him 150-200 ab at double A and then promoting him rapidly if he shows he can handle the pitching.
by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would they?
Maybe Craig is going in some kind of deal for a pitcher.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Craig
by chuckb on Dec 17, 2007 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Freese...
Regarding Craig...I hope they give him every opputunity to fail at 3B before moving him across the diamond. If he can't handle 3B...he'll be somewhere else learning 1B anyway.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
shawn green
by raisin on Dec 17, 2007 10:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I wondered about that, too
The down side, to me, is that he is left-handed, but otherwise I think Green would be nice for a year.
by the Tewk on Dec 17, 2007 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite
Green would not be a bench player. He'd start RF at the free agent wages he'll earn. He's projected at a .767 OPS or so from ZiPS. We could most likely get better out of Ankiel, Ludwick, Barton, Schu, Spiez combo starting.
by RedbirdRay on Dec 17, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's an average bat
by JI on Dec 17, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To me...
by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends on Rasmus
I like the idea of taking a gamble on a risky pitcher who at least has some upside. We're awash in back-of-the-rotation guys. Wainwright looks like the only #1/#2 guy, and given Carp's second major surgery I include him in that group as well.
Another possibility I like is using the Edmonds savings to eat enough of Rolen's contract to allow us to move him for a decent prospect and payroll flexibility going forward.
by bgodar on Dec 17, 2007 10:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I believe
Also, the right and smart thing would be to spend it on the draft.
by bigboy1234 on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
that would require a pretty severe
although the thought of it is very enticing.
by azruavatar on Dec 17, 2007 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but hey
by bigboy1234 on Dec 17, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Outfielders
On less Duncan gets traded, I don't see where a Lofton or Wilkerson can be squeezed in without taking valuable ABs away from someone who needs them.
by Red in Chicago on Dec 17, 2007 11:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
if they do add a veteran
if they don't add some depth, then what happens when one of the outfielders pulls a hammy or sprains a wrist and goes onto the dl? what happens if barton doesn't make the team, or ankiel's weaknesses get exposed w/ greater playing time, or schumaker hits .240 with no power?
at least one of those things is bound to happen, and when it does the team will be forced either to call rasmus up prematurely or resort to replacement-level players. as i said, that's no big deal if the team is truly writing the season off as a developmental year. if that's what they choose to do, i would not complain. it would be a rational decision.
but it would be out of character for either dewitt or larussa to concede the season in december.
by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An aside...
If they do add some depth, then one of these guys mentioned above doesn't get the oppurtunity to succeed or fail. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to Schumacher not being on the team, but is the marginal gain in production we get this year worth what it might cost us down the road.
I don't think so. I say if you are going to go the player development route then you put that money into your drafting and latin operations.
Set the budget at 115 and let the GM use it as he pleases. If he wants to spend 10M on the draft, fine. He only gets to spend 105 on the ML roster.
I'm starting to come around on Mo, and I get the feeling the guy really wants to go the player development route. I hope so.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OF opportunity costs for Lofton
by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel played CF in the minors
by saladdays on Dec 17, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yah...
He needs to focus on getting better at the plate, and like I said earlier, he's got the prototypical mold for a RF -- gets to balls in the gap and has a cannon. If he can learn some plate discipline and take some walks he becomes a much more effective offensive player which is really what the club needs. Barton and Schumaker have played extensively in CF and should be considered the best options for that position going into spring training.
by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was just
by saladdays on Dec 17, 2007 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
understand saladdays
by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd tend to agree with that
by saladdays on Dec 17, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny #@#*Lofton
by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rasmus/Edmonds
Living in Springfield, I've seen Colby several times. I would very much like the Cards to keep him at Memphis next year. Taking a long term view, I think that would be best for all involved. He's awfully good, and awfully young.
by Pokey Joe on Dec 17, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds - HoF
Currently, Edmonds is still 2 gold gloves and 38 home runs short of those marks. Even though PetCo is huge, if Edmonds really can come back somewhat healthy, I could see him competing for a gold glove and hitting 20 or so home runs. If he does that, maybe he'll be convinced to come back for one more year (for the Padres or whomever) to get a shot at that 10th gold glove and 400th home run.
A long shot, granted, but not impossible.
by Robb on Dec 17, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good stuff lboros
i would prefer jennings with an option, being that the cardinals should build with 09 in mind, and i'd give jennings the best shot of that grouping to bounce back fully.
by erik on Dec 17, 2007 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Signing Jennings
I'm all alone on a thin, creaky limb that says Mike Hampton is healthy and effective for 2008, but Jennings wouldn't be a bad bet.
by liam on Dec 17, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hampton
by bigboy1234 on Dec 17, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I've missed it
by gonzostl on Dec 17, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At what point in time
by Alxfritz on Dec 17, 2007 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A decision we'll all have to make on our own
by liam on Dec 17, 2007 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds
With the most attractive free agent outfield names gone (Jones, F-dome, Rowand, and Bradley) combined with the Cards glut of AAAA outfielders, the Edmonds money should not be spent on adding to the outfield. Lets play it out with Duncan, Ankiel, Skip, Barton, Ludwick, and Mather. I am confident that some combination of the above can prove passable for 2008 and far cheaper than any FA signing that will only further delay the Cards figuring out what they have in the above crop.
No, the extra money should be spent on pitching. Pick a pair, one inning eater and one project with upside. Picking the poison, I say the Cards split the money between Weaver and Prior. Both have more upside and Weaver is already an innings eater.
by JMedwick on Dec 17, 2007 12:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My Take
I am on board with the idea of signing one buy-low pitcher and one "safe" arm if that safe-arm can be had for cheap. I think signing the Dragonslayer or Silva would be a mistake, but Towers would probably work. As for the gamble, my first choice would be Bartolo Colon, but if he feels healthy he'll probably try to hold out for more than one year, which is one too many in my book. My second choice would probably be Freddy Garcia. He has been a reliable 2-3 starter for the bulk of his career. If nothing else, this whole scenario would give the squad options in the Spring and give them insurance for WHEN Mulder goes down.
by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 17, 2007 12:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The last thing
Now what do the Cardinals need? About 4 good starting pitchers. But since thats not going to happen save the money for the draft. But since thats not going to happen sign Mark Prior, who may be done but actually has a chance to be above average. But since thats not going to happen, sign Russ Ortiz, Steve Trachsel, and Mike Maroth to ensure we get the #1 pick in 2009. Ok, I'm done.
by bigboy1234 on Dec 17, 2007 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i've posted this before
i wonder if that by essentially saving 6MM in salary on jimmy, ownership hasn't just opened the door to eat some more of rolen's salary than was originally intended. thinking maybe that once they realized what the market is for rolen, and their goal being to pick up some top notch prospects in any swap of our 3B, they perhaps realized the need to eat more salary on rolen in hopes of getting something more back. interested to see if that was a factor at all. i am cool with that from a business standpoint and a looking forward standpoint.
by trip mcneely2 on Dec 17, 2007 1:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rolen
In other words - they'll pay him $12 million in 2008 if he sticks around. If they trade him away and have to pay (for example) $10 million of his 2008 salary, they're still saving $2 million on the year.
Freeing up money with Edmonds doesn't make that any more true.
by Robb on Dec 17, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my point was...
however, the focus seems to be on getting some high end prospects in any trade for rolen which seems to necessitate us eating salary. so with the 6MM in savings from edmonds deal, the cardinals could conceivable eat 6MM on rolen's 12MM deal and perhaps get a high end prospect(s) while leaving us at the same spot in our salary costs for the season as we were before the edmonds trade.
by trip mcneely2 on Dec 17, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with trip
by bigmcq16 on Dec 18, 2007 5:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
by Red in Chicago on Dec 17, 2007 1:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah
by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Steinbrenner says Shut Up
by Birds on the Bat on Dec 17, 2007 3:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
if he has a good spring he could
by cm1000 on Dec 17, 2007 3:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Clemen{t}cy
Of those discussed, Clement is my favorite; my 'slit my throat' choice is Prior.
by the Tewk on Dec 17, 2007 4:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
bah
Let's face, 2008 is going to be an ugly, ugly year.
by DiscoJer on Dec 17, 2007 4:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Starting 8:
C same
1B same
2B same
SS Eckstein->Izturis (cheaper)
3B same
LF same
CF Edmonds->Schumaker/Barton (cheaper)
RF same (Encarnacion is still on the books)
Bench:
C Bennett->LaRue (cheaper)
MIF Miles->Ryan
CIF same
OF Ludwick,Schumaker,Taguchi,Wilson->Ludwick,Barton
We are saving money on position players
by StLHugo on Dec 17, 2007 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rebuild
But, you know what? The club IS trying to get better. We added our shortstop of the future in the draft. We have the center fielder of the future in the system (Jocketty, God love him, would have traded Rasmus in a second). We have some exciting pitching in coming up. Carpenter is going to take this year to get healthy. Mulder may round into shape. Ryan certainly isn't the answer, but he may play some short till Kozma is ready in a couple of years. Ankiel may just figure things out yet. We have an absolute STUD closer in the making.
We all knew the run had to end eventually. While we may snip and gripe about our draft picks, or our signings, I really like the way that Mo is moving the club. He has cleared roster spots for most of our prospects to really get a chance. We will know in about 8 months what we can finally make of Ankiel, Reyes, Ludwick, Schumaker, and Ryan. Who sinks will be replaced, and who floats will make us more flexible going into the future.
BTW, goodbye Jimmy. You have been my favorite Cardinal. I hope the team makes the right move to retire your number.
by Eckstreem on Dec 17, 2007 5:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
clemens guilt by association
by punchinjudy on Dec 17, 2007 5:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
JimEd windfall
I'd use the money for a one year contract on Jennings with a team option. If something like that can't be done I like vinniefromjersey's idea of designating it for signing draft choices or young Latin ball players. I think that management could go public with that plan and most fans would approve.
by easy on Dec 17, 2007 6:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Spending money just b/c you have it
I guess the question is whether it is worth it to sign a pitcher to a 3-year contract just to show the fanbase that we're not throwing in the towel.
I agree with the posters above that this windfall could definitely be more helpful to sign draftees. I'm also not opposed to a high-risk/reward 1-year deal like Colon or Prior. But I'm guessing DeWitt, et al. have a different strategy.
by sdangler on Dec 17, 2007 6:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The extra money
Don't spend it just to spend it.
by tknup on Dec 17, 2007 7:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
More trades
by easy on Dec 17, 2007 8:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Edmonds for prospect and pitcher - Larry rocks!
by CardsWin on Dec 18, 2007 12:52 AM EST reply actions 0 recs



















