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spending the edmonds dividend

the news that jim edmonds asked for this trade has done little to stop the angry recriminations over it. there are still plenty of people out there --- including a few who e-mailed me yesterday --- who insist that thte deal was born of dewitt's money-grubbing and/or mozeliak's stupidity. the truth, we now know, is that the front office was planning to do exactly what the fans wanted --- keep edmonds around for one last hurrah, let him retire a cardinal --- but jimmy didn't want to stay in a diminished role.

he did the cardinals a favor, forcing them to make a beneficial move they otherwise wouldn't have made (perhaps because they feared the fan backlash). the trade netted them a not-inconsequential prospect (more on that below) and $6m to spend on a player who probably will be more impactful on the win column in 2008 than edmonds would have been. the onus is now on the front office to put the money back into the roster; if they don't, the angry talk about salary dumping will be somewhat justified. but they also need to spend it wisely --- ie, in a fashion that's consistent w/ their commitment to player development. so what should the cards do with the edmonds dividend? i can think of a couple possibilities:

spend it on pitching. this is the obvious way to go. the cards already were in the market for pitchers and, having failed to swing a trade, were beginning to sort through the junk on the free-agent market. but their budget would only allow for one acquisition; now they might be able to squeeze in two, which changes the calculus. mozeliak had previously ruled out high injury risks --- with $17m already tied up in mulder and carpenter, the cards need stability above all else, so mo focused on healthy but mediocre (or worse) guys who could be relied upon to consume innings. josh fogg typifies this class of pitchers. but the edmonds dividend allows them to gamble on a second pitcher with great downside risk but high upside. edmonds' departure leaves the payroll at about $95m, so there's $10m to $15m in the till; that should be enough to acquire one dependable innings-eater (josh towers is my favorite in this class) and roll the dice on somebody like bartolo colon or jason jennings. the number of pitchers in this category is large --- colon, jennings, freddy garcia, john lieber, matt clement, rodrigo lopez, mark prior, and kris benson all fit the description. the cards ought to be able to land one of them on a short-term deal, and if they do then in essence they will have traded edmonds for a prospect and (let's say) bartolo colon; you can't expect a better return on the shell of a one-time superstar.

spend it on another outfielder who isn't quite as washed up as edmonds. admittedly, this would kind of defeat the purpose --- why replace one old, expensive outfielder with another? but with edmonds gone, the dean of the cardinal outfield corps is chris duncan, who has all of 665 career at-bats; ludwick has 637, schumaker 177, ankiel 172, and barton 0. aside from duncan (who can't actually play the position), any of the st louis outfielders might prove to be a complete bust --- indeed, the odds are that at least one of them will. this is not a big deal if the cardinals are content to write off the whole season to player development, but if they want to give themselves even a remote shot of contending then it might be prudent to add one veteran to the cast --- provided said veteran a) is available on a one-year deal, b) willing to accept the part-time role that edmonds rejected; and c) can still hit. milton bradley fit this description to a tee, but he's no longer available (i just can't let this one go . . . . ). in a pure baseball sense, the most logical fit still on the market is kenny lofton; i don't like the little jerk at all, but he is still a very productive offensive player and he'd give the cardinals a real leadoff man (their best in over a decade). but he's a mismatch for this organization personalitywise, which makes him an unlikely pickup. ditto barry bonds, for reasons i need not enumerate. geoff jenkins would be a logical fit, but reports are that he's bound for either san diego or philadelphia. so who's left? shannon stewart and shawn green are out there, but neither one is any better than the players already on hand. but there are a few guys who i would consider defensible pickups --- again, under the caveats outlined above. one is brad wilkerson, hampered by injury the last two seasons but still pretty young (30) and blessed with good plate discipline and decent power. if he's available on a one-year deal, i like him. another possibility would be luis gonzalez, who has expressed strong interest in playing in st louis and, even at age 40, can still reliably get on base. he put up an ops of almost .800 in dodger stadium last year and might be handy to have around in case one of the young players fails or gets injured. and finally there's corey patterson, who is the same age as skip schumaker but vastly more talented --- more power, more speed, better defender, better arm. if he could simply muster a .330 on-base percentage, this guy would be quite a valuable player. alas, his single-season high in obp is .329, and his career average is .298 . . . . you don't want this guy playing for you every day, and you don't want him taking at-bats away from rasmus or barton. but as a depth guy --- a part-time player who can run, play defense, and pop the ball out of the park --- he wouldn't do any harm. and there's always the remote chance he puts it all together and posts an .800 ops for you.

however the cardinals spend the $6m, that return will get added to the value the cards have already received in exchange for edmonds, david freese. frustrated jed fans are dismissing this guy as a piece-a-shit prospect, which isn't fair; he'll never be a star, but he has a decent chance of delivering a few seasons of league-average offense. at least, that's what PECOTA thinks; it projects .260ish equivalent averages (.260 is the definition of league average) for this player through his age 28 season. for the sake of comparison, the list of 3bmen with .260ish eqas last season included scott spiezio, casey blake, eric chavez, and scott rolen. a guy of that ilk who makes the league minimum is a valuable player. BP translates freese's 2007 minor-league line into a major-league equivalent of .245 / .325 / .384 and an eqa of .249; the average big-league 3d baseman had an eqa of .269 last year and a line of .274 / .346 / .445. so freese has a ways to go before he becomes league average for his position. but he's not that far off; there's a reasonable chance he will get there with another year or two of development.

yesterday erik did a comparison between freese and allen craig, the cards' leading incumbent 3b prospect; nice bit of contexting. i'll augment that from an eqa perspective --- these are major-league translations:

age avg obp slg eqa
craig 22 .269 .321 .469 .267
freese 24 .245 .325 .384 .249

craig is still the better prospect; better performance at a younger age. but depth is a good thing.

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My alternative
would be to spend the money by going "over-slot" for some prospects, like the passed over Porcello and the unsigned Russell. Piling up the prospects gets you the opportunity to trade for a Cabrera or a Santana instead of sitting on the sidelines. Whether or not they spend it for this year's roster makes no difference in my view, because they major positives from Rolen, Mulder, and Carpenter to have any shot.  We have enough might be's and has been's already.If you're rebuilding, rebuild, but go at it with the attitude of what's best for the Cardinals, not what's best for Selig's slotting system.

by vinniefromjersey on Dec 17, 2007 9:21 AM EST reply actions  

This and Eckstein...
With the knowledge that JEd asked for a trade, why is it again that they didn't offer Eckstein arbritration?  Knowing that you were going to try to save money by trading Edmonds, how can the team even begin to justify not offering arbritation by stating they didn't want to pay for the supplemental pick.  This is just mental...

by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Because Eck would have likely accepted
and gotten more than the $4.5M he signed for or more than the ~$3M we signed Izturis for.  We would have been stuck with a $6M shortstop who can't play defense.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 17, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait a minute...
When did anyone in the front office state that they didn't offer Eck arbitration because they didn't want to pay for a supplemental pick?
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 17, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I think
Don't quote me on this but I think it was discussed over at Future Redbirds and someone from the organization was quoted as saying that this was the reason.  I am not sure who.

Zubin you are right in that he could have accepted and got more money than what he got from the Blue Jays but at the time it was thought that he was looking for more years.  I don't know which move was correct--but it is a gamble that I would have been willing to take. For a chance at a another draft pick.  Shoot we could have just waited on Izturis and let this play out, he wasn't going anywhere and if he did we could have just given the job to Ryan...

by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm glad they didn't offer
because if they had, eckstein surely would have accepted; by then he knew there wasn't a market for him. if he were on the roster, la russa would probably have deferred to him; the cards would have been stuck w/ his bad defense for another year, and ryan would have been relegated to 30 starts at ss. he would have had zero chance to play his way into the job.

with izturis as his only competition, ryan might well claim the everyday job in spring training, and at the very least, he'll get 1/3 of the starts. so we're going to get a) better defense, and b) a better look at our young player. i'd rather have that than 1 year of eckstein.

by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Dead horse
can we please stop beating this eckstein aribtration dead horse? it was a gamble the cards chose not to take. It's not like it was a top ten pick the cards would be getting. it seems like an attempt to find fault with everything this front office does.

by indakind on Dec 17, 2007 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

killing it till it dies from it
If bernie is to be believed, it might not have been as clear cut as that

At the end of the season, they asked his agent if Eckstein was willing to sign a 1-year, or 2-year, deal. The answer was No.

The day they signed Izturis, Mozeliak called Eckstein's agent and asked again: we just want to make sure. Would you consider a 1-year, or 2-year deal. The answer: No.

That's why.

Eckstein's agent completely misread the market and botched it for his client. I don't think playing in Toronto on a 1-year deal was David's ultimate goal.

But when you go around asking for 4 years, 36 million ... if you are so far out of touch from reality, I guess this is what happens.

the cardinals did offer the guy 3 and 21 in the spring.

There is no blame to put on the cardinals on this one. None.

--B

If he wasn't willing to take a two year deal at the time, saying that he would accept arbitration might be a reach

"My cat's breath smells like cat food"

by Dave Barry on Dec 17, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

bad logic here
If the situation you outline is true, then there is a lot of blame for the organization.  If they knew that Eck would not accept a one-year offer, then they definitely should have offered him arbitration -- it becomes a true no-lose then.  

Based on all the published reports, e.g., that they offered Eck a two-year deal, the comments that they didn't want to wait on Izturis, etc., it seems the main motivation was that they didn't want to wait for Eck to decline arbitration.  So, essentially, they valued one year of Izturis over the draft pick.  This makes no sense to me, and if true I think it indicates major flaws in the Cards' decision-making process.  That is really the big concern here, and the reason for the ongoing debate.

I'm afraid the only other alternative is that Cards management have essentially been disseminating a lot of misinformation via the P-D to hide their real intentions, but that seems unlikely to me in this case as it would have to involve a pretty dedicated campaign of deception.   It's not as if some surprise move has come to fruition here.  So it really does seem as if there have been a number of questionable decisions made without any obvious broader plan, other than the vague goal of "building from within."

by apack on Dec 17, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly
what the cardinals are getting really good at is undermining their own credibility. passing on Porcello to take Kozma, whether it was a good baseball decision or not did the same.  if they're building from within than steps can be taken to hurry the process along.

i don't care how much money the club spends, but I would like to see a good product on the field eventually

a supplemental round pick is a very valuable tool. recent notables to be drafted in the supplemental round include huston street, clay bucholtz, travis buck, luke hochevar, jed lowrie and our own tyler herron just to name a few

"My cat's breath smells like cat food"

by Dave Barry on Dec 17, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

leadership
Larry, your comment implies that this move would have been bad because La Russa would have given Eck an unreasonably large amount of playing time at short, as opposed to, say a reasonable amount of playing time between short and second.  There was a similar situation with Miles, and similar problems have affected other decisions as well (Rolen, Edmonds, et al.)  This shows a major problem with the Cards organization -- if the entire organization is not operating cohesively, not following a unified vision, then it is very difficult to move forward in the best way.  To me this comes down to leadership (or more a lack thereof), starting from the top -- from Mo, backed by DeWitt.  It definitely appears that they're working around La Russa, rather than with him.  Really, who's running the show and what are they trying to accomplish??  

Again, is it any wonder that Antonetti didn't want to come here?

by apack on Dec 17, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i would agree w/ you
i think they're trying to work around tony to some degree. the owner blew it when he brought the guy back before a gm was in place.

by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

TLR going forward
Agree completely with Larry on the one.  The vision that DeWitt set for the organization of growing from within (player development) rather than the vet laden strategy employed by Walt is incompatible with TRL as manager.  I look at Miguel Cairo playing 28 games as a Cardinal last year (w/ Barden or Ryan on the bench) as a microcosm of the problem.  At least it was only a 2 year contract.  Could have been worse.

by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

leadership (again)
To me, leadership from the GM level means (a) making sure the field manager is on board with the organizational plan, and (b) making sure that the players at each level support the organization's plan.  We all know that Mo can't completely control La Russa (nor should he), but he can control who's on the roster.

Signing Miguel Cairo was Jockety's mistake, not Tony's...though Tony compounded the mistake by playing him instead of using the time to more thoroughly evaluate Ryan.

by apack on Dec 17, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes and no
this is a decision that you could argue either way.  The gambler in me thinks that the odds of Eckstien not accepting and netting us a sandwich pick are worth risking one year of Eckstien at 6 million.  Mo made a decision based on the best available information, I can live with it.  On the positive it shows to some extent that he is working independently of LaRussa who I feel would have wanted Eckstien at a 3y @ 7M per.

by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

eck and arb
i'd still have offered eck arb and taken my chances.  if he agreed and won, then he splits time with kennedy and ryan, or you just let kennedy go (same 3 million as iz).

by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You present offering him arb
as a no-brainer decision, but you also call it a "gamble."  And a gamble is exactly what it was.  Obviously it was a risk the Cardinals were not prepared to make.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Giving Mo some credit...
In my eyes at the time it was a no-brainer.  Eckstein was looking for a multi-year contract and it didn't appear that he would accept it.  What stuck me was that someone stated that it was due to not wanting to pay for an additional draft pick.  In hindsight this was probably spin and the team didn't want him.

For the team it would have been a gamble.  In retrospect Mo made the correct decision.  He probably had inside knowledge of the market for Eck and made his call based on that.  Mind you I still would rather trot Ryan out there for 120 games than watch Izturis...

by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I saw that info
on the rotoworld sidebar and took it with a grain of salt.  It was a curious bit of info for RotoWorld to include.

by jroman on Dec 17, 2007 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

They didn't say
they didn't want to pay for the supplemental; they said they didn't what to risk paying what Eckstein would likely get in arbitration.  I don't agree with the rationale, but we need to identify the true nature of their error.

by MikeG on Dec 17, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, Yes, Yes
Moneywhip every Boras client that falls down the draft board. That loophole will surely be closed in the next CBA, might as well take advantage while we can. Barring that, USSMariner thinks that the fat man (Colon) is a pretty good bet to rebound this year:

http://ussmariner.com/2007/10/24/the-hidden-gem-of-free-agent-pitchers/

If he pans out you could flip him at the deadline for prospects.

by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 17, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

risk
i agree, better to risk on the health of a pitcher who was at least once great than on a surefire never be great (aka, lohse et al).

by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Beat me to it...
That's a great idea.  Take that 6M, plus what you already have budgeted, and have yourself the best draft of the past 20 years.

I'd rather do that than spend it on an injured starting pitcher or an OFer who might not be much better than what we already have.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

real trade
you bet bobby, dollarwise, you could have had reese and porcello for edmonds and kozma.

by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Mulder & paying for draft choices..
Found this on Baseball Musings today about the A's paying for Mulder at the draft & what that netted them in total:

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/024257.php

Click through the link to read the post..

Interesting stuff.

Boomer.

by glamboomer on Dec 17, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Very Interesting Stuff
I think we can all agree on this:
[S]ometimes opening the pocketbook on draft day can be the most fiscally responsible move a team can make.

This Melissa Lockard may have a a firmer grasp on the intricacies of the game than Walt Jocketty.

Looking forward to this summer, when we'll find out how Mo wants his high-round picks used.

Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 17, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think she overreaches
Here's what she wrote for the Haren trade:

"It is hard to know exactly what the A's are going to get out of this package, but it is not unreasonable to think that the team will get at least one starting outfielder, one starting pitcher, one reliever and a fourth outfielder or DH out of this group".

So out of the six, FOUR are going to be useable major league players?

Not very likely.

Out of every 100 players drafted, about 15 make it to the majors--or roughly a 15% success rate. Of those 15%, about 15% have a one year career, and another 15% have a two year career. So perhaps 12 out of 100 players have more than a cup of coffee in the big leagues.

Yet, of the six guys the A's get, they are going to have a 67% success rate--versus probably 12% overall?

No, not very likely.

But if you are going to run the numbers and drafting, let's talk J.D. Drew.

The Cards got 5 years of J.D. Drew, then traded him (and dumped Eli) for King, Marquis, and Wainwright. They've had four years of starters from Wainwright and Marquis (three good ones) and rights to Wainwright for four more years, three years of relief (two from King, one from Wainwright), along with two years from Miles (we can bypass Bigbie).

Dave

by Sydney dave on Dec 17, 2007 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Your take...
A bit off in my opinion.

First, in your 15% you are taking into account guys drafted in the 408th rd.  Also, the guys that OAK received have a bit of a track record.

I'd say they'll get closer to a 67% return than the 15% you suggested.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

But Sydney Dave is spot on
When it comes to the J.D. Drew pick. We picked a guy with well-known signability issues and paid him a handsome bonus. And he paid off mightily—not just in what he produced for the Cardinals, but it what he fetched down the road.

The A's didn't trade for 6 random draft picks, though, like you said. These are (the four she's talking about) good-to-great prospects.

Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 18, 2007 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

But we got burned with that strategy too
see: Ankiel, Rick and Hutchinson, Chad
I will be commando

by Valatan on Dec 18, 2007 4:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Ouch!
Chad Hutchinson!
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 18, 2007 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, we'll know in five years
Given the numbers, I'll take the under.

Dan Symmborski at http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/diamondbacks_acquired_haren_traded_valve rde/

says the following about the trade:

"For the first part of the trade, the Arizona-Oakland one, I like this trade from both sides. The A's simply aren't good enough to catch the Angels this season and not good enough to catch 2 of New York-Boston-Detroit-Cleveland, so, as Beane hinted at the end of the season, they're going to rebuild here. They better be as that's the only justification for letting Haren, who's signed cheaply for 3 more years, leave town. This does a good job at filling out some of the holes in the minors for the green-and-gold and while none except for Gonzalez are real impact prospects, the A's need to fish for a real impact hitter and they've been very good at developing solid starters out of a mass of pitching prospects. Gonzalez isn't ready this year and Carter won't be ready for a couple, but the A's have 1B-DH-OF options to sort through the next few years anyway. Same issue with Cunningham - they're going to also play him at AAA while they sort out the aforementioned options. So they gamble that one of Eveland-Smith-Anderson becomes a solid pitcher and come out ahead on the deal if it works out. You have to give credit for Beane for discipline - when the time comes to rebuild, no half ass "OK, we'll take lesser prospects if you throw in a guy who's a major leaguer!"

I'd say his take on these prospects is a lot dimmer than the writer, or some of the comments here. Besides, if these were really prime prospects, the Snakes would have traded two or three, not six of them.

If the A's got two real players out of the six, they'd probably say they got a good deal. But writing that four of the six will contribute is a big reach, IMO.

But like I say, we won't know for another five years.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Dec 18, 2007 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Where is Barden...
in your comparison of Cards 3B prospects?  Is he out of options?  Is he considered a non-prospect/AAAA player?  It wasn't long ago he was putting up some pretty impressive numbers at AAA.

As always, your take on sensitive matters such as this trade is spot on.

by cardzfanbub on Dec 17, 2007 9:25 AM EST reply actions  

The forgotten
Barden and his 3 years of .800+ OPS at AAA are being overlooked.

Barden has 2 options remaining.

by cariocacardinal on Dec 17, 2007 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

barden's translated line at triple A
was only .230 / .313 / .285, with a .213 eqa. pecota projects him peaking with eqas in the .240 range.

by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

dice rolls
i'd take prior over any of the gambles you mentioned.  whether he'd come to the cards for any price, however, is another matter.

by moboiler on Dec 17, 2007 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

Why?
I just can't think of 1 concrete reason to think Prior can pitch more than a game or 2 in the majors again.

by sdrone on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

if i remember right
he had surgery to repair damage in his shoulder.  you're right, he may never pitch in the majors again, but the upside of a gamble is far better than that of guys like colon, benson, etc.  the problem is you'd likely have to give him a 2-year deal instead of a year + option.  still, i'd rather pay prior $13 mil for two years than mulder.  oh wait...

by moboiler on Dec 17, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Prior
Mark Prior is toast.  Even if his shoulder is healthy, he hasn't pitched more than a handful of games over the past few years.  What are the chances his stuff will rebound?  What happened to Carpenter isn't all that common, after all.

There is the added issue that his mechanics are pretty awful however you look at it.  He wasn't aggressive with his lower half or with his finish, which take a little bit of stress off of your arm.  More importantly, his arm action wasn't very good.  Combine all of that with being abused by Baker, and the dude is spent.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 17, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

mench
wouldnt the big headed kid be an option?  i like wilkerson but it seems like another righty bat might make sense.  he is .305/.361/.563 career vs. lefties and should come pretty cheap.

combination of duncan/ankiel/spiezio/schumaker vs. righties

combination of mench/barton/spiezio/ankiel vs. lefties.

by dmb60614 on Dec 17, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions  

Yup
Almost makes too much sense. Depends on how much he's asking for.

by rockin the red on Dec 17, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I vote Wilkerson.
He used to be a reliable on-base guy.  I have not idea why the OBP dropped so precipitously in the last 2 years, but if he can get that approach back, he'd be a great choice.

When he was with the Nationals he hit leadoff (although, admittedly, the Nats didn't have ANYONE else who could) and did a creditable job, not to mention playing CF.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 9:44 AM EST reply actions  

+1
  I think Wilkerson is underrated right now.  To a degree I understand but I think he will bounce back this year, and be a good find for whoever takes a chance on him.

by Recon on Dec 17, 2007 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

is wilkerson really still a CF?
he's only played two games in CF the last two seasons.  of course, it is the rangers...
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 17, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I would never put him in CF,
but for a year or two with the Nats (who had no one else, besides people like Endy Chavez, a.k.a. "Inning-Endy Chavez"), he was all they had.  But he did put up 3 straight years of OBPs in he 370s.  I'd take that in a heartbeat.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

he bats left-handed
 and used to pitch in college, he could cover miles' innings!

by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought
trading Edmonds would be simply wrong, but it was clear from the beginning that he asked to be traded. So as said as I am to see him go I have no problem with the trade. In fact it fits with the current thinking.

 Thank you, Jim.
I wish your glove was enough to get you in the HOF.

 

by nybirdfan on Dec 17, 2007 9:45 AM EST reply actions  

And I don't care if Freese ends
up being a ML starter.  With his power, perhaps he could become a valuable bench player, perhaps a Mike Ivie-type 3B/1B/LF/PH bench guy?

Geez, I'm showing my age when I bring Mike Ivie into it.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 17, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

freese ... catcher
I was thinking of Freese as a bench guy too and somewhere (can't remember where I read it) the Pades organization thought he might be able to catch.  You take this guy's bat, make him a backup catcher (who can also play corner IF), and now you have something that can contribute.

Apparently he was sent to the fall instructional league as a catcher this year:
http://forum.signonsandiego.com/archive/index.php/t-77950.html

 

by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sold on Freese
Looking at his numbers from college and then his relative numbers from last year, I'm not sold that he's going to get that much better.  This is a kid who played 4 full years of college ball, so if he was going to have a chance at being a major league regular, he should have put up a lot better overall numbers at A ball last year, since he's probably 3 or 4 years older and much more experienced that most of the players he's playing against.  His PECOTA projections look ok, but I'm not sure PECOTA tells you much after looking at one season of A ball, and it doesn't factor in age, if it did, then Craig would project as a much higher prospect as he's a full two years younger.  Best case scenario, he adds some depth and competition for Craig in the minors and maybe is capable of making the club as a utility man.  

The other thing that I don't like is that he's not the type of player that the Cardinals could move with other prospects to get a bona-fide big league player.

I'm not upset with the trade as a whole, I'm actually glad to see that the young guys in the OF are going to get a chance to play and show what they can do.  I'm not sure what the Padres really think they're getting -- unless Jimmy makes a dramatic resurgence next season they're going to be much worse off than if they had re-signed Mike Cameron.  I loved watching Jimmy as a Cardinal, but even the casual fan can see that he's been done for a couple of years now.  I don't see him putting up an OPS much higher than .650 when he's playing his home games at Petco.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 10:02 AM EST reply actions  

I want to see them trade Rolen
for pitching and let Fresse/Hamilton/Barden fight it out for 3B.
"Re-build the Team Guy"

by Red Blazer on Dec 17, 2007 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

Hammy
Hamilton from what I hear isn't great at 1B much less trying to have him do more work at 3B.  I don't think Rolen will be traded.  I saw an interview with TLR and Tony wants Rolen back and said that Rolen is the one that wants a trade.  Tony also said something along the lines of "I don't know why he would want to be traded, we have been so good to him"

by StLHugo on Dec 17, 2007 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Whoops.
I meant Craig/Barden/Freese.
"Re-build the Team Guy"

by Red Blazer on Dec 17, 2007 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Big huge whoops...
The biggest "whoops" is the dream that Barden, Freese or Craig are going to be 3rd base MLB starters anywhere in 08'. Barden and Freese might fight it out for a starting position at AAA ball, that would be realistic. Barden being released after ST is another very realistic possibilty.

Somehow we've all forgotten Joe Mather as a possible platoon solution to NOT signing Kenny "le' freak" Lofton, Patterson or Gonzalez, tho Gonzalez presence in the dug out would be a real solid for this team ...along with a little  less power but more BB and fewer SOs than Wilkerson.

Why sign any of these guys if it appears so certain to some here that Rasmus is mid season and Barton is a future star.

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Did I mention I agree re:
Signing Lofton or Bonds, it would be poison for the Cards. Maybe we could coax Joey Belle out of retirement to make it a personality threesome in the outfield. I'd rather see Mather.
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Upside
  I think the Cards should go for upside.  If a pitcher, then Colon or Garcia depending on how their rehab timeframes look.  If offense, a creative trade with Reyes as the cornerstone may be the best option.  Barring that then I'd look at Bonds.  I know this idea won't be popular but Bonds and Pujols in the same lineup would be fearsome.  He'd only be a 1 year commitment.

by Recon on Dec 17, 2007 10:13 AM EST reply actions  

As far as the organization...
Obviously, you spend some cash on pitching.  I don't think there's any doubt that the rotation is where this ballclub needs the biggest overhaul.  I think that with the acquisition of Barton, who's going to be on the roster all year so he might as well play somewhere, the Cardinals really don't need to go out and get a veteran outfielder.  Ludwick came up as a centerfielder, and I think that a platoon of him and Schumaker in CF would be a lot more productive than the Taguchi/Edmonds platoon from last year, if the feeling is that Ludwick can't handle it the job by himself.  I don't think Ankiel is a good option, learning plate discipline should be his #1 priority next season and coupling that with learning to man CF is not productive IMO, especially since he's really your prototypical RF in terms of arm strength.

I don't want to see Lofton in a Cardinal uniform, but if they're going to sign a veteran player, he's definitely the guy I'd look at.  He can lead-off, which fills a huge need on the current ballclub, and he gives the ballclub options at the deadline next year when he can be moved to a contending ballclub for a prospect or draft picks to make room for Colby Rasmus to get some AB's in the last two months.  Economically he makes the most sense for the ballclub if the focus is on the future but the club wants to remain competitive next season.  

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 10:22 AM EST reply actions  

Shouldn't we
at least let Freese get to the bigs before lambasting him as a POS?
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 17, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

POS?
I never said that...I simply said that he's going to be 25 and that after looking at his progression through college and his first season in the minors I don't think he's going to improve much.

That being said, it looks like he can really hit at the A ball level, but why wasn't he promoted to AA last year?  It's not like the Padres system is brimming with top prospects at the AA and AAA levels.  If he goes to Springfield this year and knocks the cover off of it I'll be tickled.  But what does the organization do if he doesn't?  Do we stand by a 25 year old that hasn't shown he can hit at the AA level when you have another, better, younger prospect behind him that plays the same position?  

Depth is a good thing and I'm all for having competition in the minors, but that doesn't mean I have to be sold on a guy who's never had a AA or AAA at-bat.  It's the sad state of our farm system that makes this kid a top 10 prospect in the Cardinal system because he isn't on any of the top 100 lists that I've seen.

Who's to say that the kid ever gets a major league at-bat?  He might be another Tagg Bozied...look at Tagg's numbers in A+ ball -- awfully similar to Freese for around the same number of AB's.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Top Ten?
He's probably in the mid-to-upper teens in our system—right about where he was in the Padres'.
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 17, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

fourstick, freese wasn't promoted to AA
because he was blocked by another 3bman, chase headley, who is the padres' version of colby rasmus --- the stud hitter in their system.

it's been suggested that the cards might move freese straight to triple A this year, skipping double A; or they might accelerate his promotion, giving him 150-200 ab at double A and then promoting him rapidly if he shows he can handle the pitching.

by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Would they?
Why skip him past Craig?

Maybe Craig is going in some kind of deal for a pitcher.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Craig
may end up being moved to 1B.  I hope he can handle 3B defensively, but there are questions about that ability.

by chuckb on Dec 17, 2007 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Freese...
I've read the same concerns of him as well.  I've also read that he's a great glove man.  It depends on who you talk to I guess.

Regarding Craig...I hope they give him every opputunity to fail at 3B before moving him across the diamond.  If he can't handle 3B...he'll be somewhere else learning 1B anyway.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

shawn green
Did lb say Shawn Green isn't better than anybody on our roster?  Not better than Skip Schumaker?  Is this true?

by raisin @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 17, 2007 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

I wondered about that, too
Being booed at Shea Stadium doesn't impress me as a negative.  He's got some age on him now, but it wasn't that long ago that he hit four home runs in one game, at Milwaukee.

The down side, to me, is that he is left-handed, but otherwise I think Green would be nice for a year.

by the Tewk on Dec 17, 2007 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Not quite
He said he wasn't better than the options on hand.   We can field a better team without him, in other words.

Green would not be a bench player.  He'd start RF at the free agent wages he'll earn.   He's projected at a .767 OPS or so from ZiPS.   We could most likely get better out of Ankiel, Ludwick, Barton, Schu, Spiez combo starting.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 17, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He's an average bat
that is pretty horrible with the glove. I'd take him as a backup 1B/OF, but if you're starting him you're in trouble.
Cardinal fan from Washington

by JI on Dec 17, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

To me...
Green is the OF equivalent to Tino Martinez, a waste of roster space for the Cards org. Id rather see Mather. I hope Joe rakes in ST. I do!
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly
Green is toast.  He was an albatross for NY last year.

by Recon on Dec 18, 2007 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

It all depends on Rasmus
If the club expects Rasmus to take the reigns in center by mid season, I really can't see spending the cash on one of these outfielders.  If that's less likely, or if they don't want to feel pressured to do so, I can see signing a Luis Gonzalez type.

I like the idea of taking a gamble on a risky pitcher who at least has some upside.  We're awash in back-of-the-rotation guys.  Wainwright looks like the only #1/#2 guy, and given Carp's second major surgery I include him in that group as well.

Another possibility I like is using the Edmonds savings to eat enough of Rolen's contract to allow us to move him for a decent prospect and payroll flexibility going forward.

by bgodar on Dec 17, 2007 10:41 AM EST reply actions  

I believe
Rodrigo Lopez is out almost all season.

Also, the right and smart thing would be to spend it on the draft.

by bigboy1234 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM EST reply actions  

that would require a pretty severe
reversal on the part of the front office and ownership to break with Selig.  That's not something I can really envision happening. . .

although the thought of it is very enticing.

by azruavatar on Dec 17, 2007 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

but hey
we can all dream of days where the Porcello's, Harvey's, Russell's fall to us and we might actually pick them.

by bigboy1234 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 17, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

oh
and sign them

by bigboy1234 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 17, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Outfielders
The trouble with signing on a vet for the OF is one of opportunity cost. This is a bigger deal than the money, IMHO. In fact, it's probably the reason Edmonds left. He was evidently being told he would be platooned and play right field.

On less Duncan gets traded, I don't see where a Lofton or Wilkerson can be squeezed in without taking valuable ABs away from someone who needs them.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 17, 2007 11:23 AM EST reply actions  

if they do add a veteran
they have do it responsibly. by which i mean, ensure that duncan and ankiel get their at-bats, and ensure that barton and rasmus get put into positions to succeed. ludwick and schumaker have less upside and hence are less important. if adding a veteran for insurance costs one of those guys some at-bats, i think that's a harmless tradeoff.

if they don't add some depth, then what happens when one of the outfielders pulls a hammy or sprains a wrist and goes onto the dl? what happens if barton doesn't make the team, or ankiel's weaknesses get exposed w/ greater playing time, or schumaker hits .240 with no power?

at least one of those things is bound to happen, and when it does the team will be forced either to call rasmus up prematurely or resort to replacement-level players. as i said, that's no big deal if the team is truly writing the season off as a developmental year. if that's what they choose to do, i would not complain. it would be a rational decision.

but it would be out of character for either dewitt or larussa to concede the season in december.

by lboros on Dec 17, 2007 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

An aside...
"if they don't add some depth, then what happens when one of the outfielders pulls a hammy or sprains a wrist and goes onto the dl? what happens if barton doesn't make the team, or ankiel's weaknesses get exposed w/ greater playing time, or schumaker hits .240 with no power?"

If they do add some depth, then one of these guys mentioned above doesn't get the oppurtunity to succeed or fail.  I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to Schumacher not being on the team, but is the marginal gain in production we get this year worth what it might cost us down the road.

I don't think so.  I say if you are going to go the player development route then you put that money into your drafting and latin operations.

Set the budget at 115 and let the GM use it as he pleases.  If he wants to spend 10M on the draft, fine.  He only gets to spend 105 on the ML roster.

I'm starting to come around on Mo, and I get the feeling the guy really wants to go the player development route.  I hope so.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 17, 2007 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

OF opportunity costs for Lofton
I'm in the camp that says Colby starts the year in Memphis.  Makes too much sense on several levels.  Viewing the situation in CF, it depends what one thinks of Schu and Barton.  If we don't acquire someone, these guys will probably split the time in CF (I don't like the idea of Ankiel in CF, he's still learning how to play RF).  Lofton would replace Schu in this equation.  The club loses the ability to see what Schu can do in the leadoff spot but gains a proven ML player who can do the job.  Are we completely writing off 2008?  If so, I go with Schu / Barton (and their combined career ML AB total of 255).  Schu has put up decent numbers in a limited sample.  Who knows?  If we are serious about 2008 though, we should have one proven leadoff hitter on the roster.  Lofton fills that roll.  As someone else has said, if Colby tears up AAA or Barton or Schu blow up, you can always flip Lofton to another contending club after the AS break.

by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Ankiel played CF in the minors
I even saw him do so a lot in one of his stints in Springfield.

by saladdays on Dec 17, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yah...
I saw him play CF for two games at Memphis last season, and he misplayed two balls and forgot to call off an infielder on a pop-up that resulted in a double.  

He needs to focus on getting better at the plate, and like I said earlier, he's got the prototypical mold for a RF -- gets to balls in the gap and has a cannon.  If he can learn some plate discipline and take some walks he becomes a much more effective offensive player which is really what the club needs.  Barton and Schumaker have played extensively in CF and should be considered the best options for that position going into spring training.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just
trying to say that he has played there before.  I don't think either of our personal experiences can accurately gauge how good he is there or not, but it's not like he's never played CF before.

by saladdays on Dec 17, 2007 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

understand saladdays
Did not mean to imply Ankiel never played CF ... but he is proficient at neither RF nor CF.  Put him at one position and let him develop there rather than moving him around the OF was my point.  CF is the more demanding defensively of the two so I'd select RF for Rick.  That cannon he calls a left arm is a weapon out in right.  Rick is still raw.  Let's keep the demands on him down to a minimum.

by jjray on Dec 17, 2007 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd tend to agree with that
Ankiel probably is best suited to play RF.  Don't know exactly what Mo said about Ank playing CF, other than Rotoworld saying that Mo "projected" Ank there.  That isn't anywhere clad in stone.

by saladdays on Dec 17, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Kenny #@#*Lofton
So if Rasmus is a midseason call up what do you do with Lofton? Kenny Lofton and Japan are made for each other.
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 18, 2007 5:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Rasmus/Edmonds
Brian Gunn had an excellent post a couple of years ago discussing the merits of Jimmy B's HOF merits. I think he stands a better than 50/50 chance of getting in; hope so.

Living in Springfield, I've seen Colby several times. I would very much like the Cards to keep him at Memphis next year. Taking a long term view, I think that would be best for all involved. He's awfully good, and awfully young.

by Pokey Joe on Dec 17, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions  

Edmonds - HoF
A few years back, I remember people starting to talk about how much of a lock Edmonds could be if he could manage to finish his career with 10 gold gloves and 400 home runs.  The only players to ever do that are Willie Mays, Mike Schmidt, and Ken Griffey Jr.  Obviously, those are 3 Hall of Famers (eventually in the case of Griffey).

Currently, Edmonds is still 2 gold gloves and 38 home runs short of those marks.  Even though PetCo is huge, if Edmonds really can come back somewhat healthy, I could see him competing for a gold glove and hitting 20 or so home runs.  If he does that, maybe he'll be convinced to come back for one more year (for the Padres or whomever) to get a shot at that 10th gold glove and 400th home run.

A long shot, granted, but not impossible.

by Robb on Dec 17, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

good stuff lboros
wilkerson, towers and either jennings or colon may not make some of the fans ecstatic, but those would all be solid additions.

i would prefer jennings with an option, being that the cardinals should build with 09 in mind, and i'd give jennings the best shot of that grouping to bounce back fully.  

I will be in Short & Sassy Pantaloons.

by erik on Dec 17, 2007 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

Signing Jennings
That would certainly put an exclamation point on the foolishness of the Hirsh/Buchholz/Taveres trade.

I'm all alone on a thin, creaky limb that says Mike Hampton is healthy and effective for 2008, but Jennings wouldn't be a bad bet.

Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 17, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I've missed it
But has Hampton ever been linked to PED's.  He seems to have the body type and sure gets injured allot.

by gonzostl on Dec 17, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

At what point in time
should we become worried about your Mike Hampton obsession?
I will be in briefs.

by Alxfritz on Dec 17, 2007 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

A decision we'll all have to make on our own
I think I started worrying about my Mike Hampton obsession when I compared him to an older Jason Johnson standing in an 8" deep hole and still think picking him up is a good idea.
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 17, 2007 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Edmonds
Sad to see him go, but I can understand from his perspective that he wants to make the most out of his last few years as a major league player. I am disappointed he won't end his career as a Cardinal, but at the same time, the Cards have the potential to make the most of his departure.

With the most attractive free agent outfield names gone (Jones, F-dome, Rowand, and Bradley) combined with the Cards glut of AAAA outfielders, the Edmonds money should not be spent on adding to the outfield. Lets play it out with Duncan, Ankiel, Skip, Barton, Ludwick, and Mather. I am confident that some combination of the above can prove passable for 2008 and far cheaper than any FA signing that will only further delay the Cards figuring out what they have in the above crop.

No, the extra money should be spent on pitching. Pick a pair, one inning eater and one project with upside. Picking the poison, I say the Cards split the money between Weaver and Prior. Both have more upside and Weaver is already an innings eater.

by JMedwick on Dec 17, 2007 12:21 PM EST reply actions  

My Take
I feel like there is a bigger need to fill in the pitching staff than the outfield.  The way I see it, there are 3 productive outfielders somewhere in the five that are currently on the squad.  Who they are remains to be seen, but that stuff will likely sort itself out eventually.  

I am on board with the idea of signing one buy-low pitcher and one "safe" arm if that safe-arm can be had for cheap.  I think signing the Dragonslayer or Silva would be a mistake, but Towers would probably work.  As for the gamble, my first choice would be Bartolo Colon, but if he feels healthy he'll probably try to hold out for more than one year, which is one too many in my book.  My second choice would probably be Freddy Garcia.  He has been a reliable 2-3 starter for the bulk of his career.  If nothing else, this whole scenario would give the squad options in the Spring and give them insurance for WHEN Mulder goes down.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 17, 2007 12:32 PM EST reply actions  

The last thing
the Cardinals actually need is an left handed outfielder.

Now what do the Cardinals need?  About 4 good starting pitchers.  But since thats not going to happen save the money for the draft.  But since thats not going to happen sign Mark Prior, who may be done but actually has a chance to be above average.  But since thats not going to happen, sign Russ Ortiz, Steve Trachsel, and Mike Maroth to ensure we get the #1 pick in 2009.  Ok, I'm done.

by bigboy1234 @ Viva El Birdos on Dec 17, 2007 1:03 PM EST reply actions  

i've posted this before
but it was right at the end of another thread and didn't get any feedback on it really.  i wonder if this is a viable consideration...

i wonder if that by essentially saving 6MM in salary on jimmy, ownership hasn't just opened the door to eat some more of rolen's salary than was originally intended.  thinking maybe that once they realized what the market is for rolen, and their goal being to pick up some top notch prospects in any swap of our 3B, they perhaps realized the need to eat more salary on rolen in hopes of getting something more back.   interested to see if that was a factor at all.  i am cool with that from a business standpoint and a looking forward standpoint.

by trip mcneely2 on Dec 17, 2007 1:13 PM EST reply actions  

Rolen
I might be thinking about this all wrong, but I don't think freeing up money in Edmonds gives the Cardinals any more money to send away for Rolen.  Anything they send to another team that's less than Rolen's salary is already savings, no matter what.

In other words - they'll pay him $12 million in 2008 if he sticks around.  If they trade him away and have to pay (for example) $10 million of his 2008 salary, they're still saving $2 million on the year.  

Freeing up money with Edmonds doesn't make that any more true.

by Robb on Dec 17, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

my point was...
not the savings on a rolen deal specifically, but on a macro view of the club.  the edmonds deal saves 6MM in salary.  if they trade rolen in a salary dump where someone would eat the whole salary then they'd save 12MM on that deal and are up 18MM on the year.  

however, the focus seems to be on getting some high end prospects in any trade for rolen which seems to necessitate us eating salary.  so with the 6MM in savings from edmonds deal, the cardinals could conceivable eat 6MM on rolen's 12MM deal and perhaps get a high end prospect(s) while leaving us at the same spot in our salary costs for the season as we were before the edmonds trade.

by trip mcneely2 on Dec 17, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually
I agree with Robb here...they weren't going to eat any more that half of Rolen's salary the next three years anyway.  Eating any more than that they're better off keeping him and hoping he rebounds.  Trading Edmonds really doesn't open up any more trading options for Rolen, because the club already lost one good veteran bat it doesn't make sense to trade away another one.  I fully expect Rolen to be in the BOB on opening day of '08.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 17, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree with trip
and was going to say the same thing. basically, if the cardinals were willing to give up rolen for a B prospect and for instance 2 mil a year, now maybe they can give up 4 mil a year and get 2 B prospects or an A prospect or something. in other words, we just pay more to upgrade the prospects

by bigmcq16 on Dec 18, 2007 5:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Nope
In his interview with Strauss, LaRussa indicated he is strongly against trading Rolen. That deal's off unless there's some change in strategy.

by Red in Chicago on Dec 17, 2007 1:19 PM EST reply actions  

yeah
Hopefully this is the change in strategy where they wait and see if he is healed so his value in trade talks increases.  I am thinking he is traded during spring training.

by BigJawnMize on Dec 17, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

finally
no matter how he felt, this is the tack tlr should have been on from the beginning

by sportsman on Dec 17, 2007 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

if he has a good spring he could
go as far a pitching goes towers hendrickson and lieber would be something to look at...they are healthy lieber had foot problems not arm issues hendrickson did post a 1.93 era on turf..Of course i am all for using reyes and welleymer and saving money..

by cm1000 on Dec 17, 2007 3:22 PM EST reply actions  

Clemen{t}cy
I sincerely hope that Mo/management is only considering option 1, re what to do with the Edmonds' windfall -- that is, a starting pitcher.

Of those discussed, Clement is my favorite; my 'slit my throat' choice is Prior.

by the Tewk on Dec 17, 2007 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

Clemens
I wonder how cheap Clemens will be now ;)

j/k

by StLHugo on Dec 17, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

bah
The thing is, half the money "saved" by dumping Edmonds, already was spent on Izturis. If they go with another vet, then they are probably in the hole.

Let's face, 2008 is going to be an ugly, ugly year.

by DiscoJer on Dec 17, 2007 4:11 PM EST reply actions  

Huh?
You realize that Izturis cost less then Eckstein right?

Starting 8:
C same
1B same
2B same
SS Eckstein->Izturis (cheaper)
3B same
LF same
CF Edmonds->Schumaker/Barton (cheaper)
RF same (Encarnacion is still on the books)

Bench:
C Bennett->LaRue (cheaper)
MIF Miles->Ryan
CIF same
OF Ludwick,Schumaker,Taguchi,Wilson->Ludwick,Barton

We are saving money on position players

by StLHugo on Dec 17, 2007 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Rebuild
At least the club has clarified its stance on 2008.  We are rebuilding.  That's it.  We are going to have an ugly year.  Albert will be ordered to walk out all grounders he hits on the infield.  Ankiel will follow up brilliant plays by mind-bogglingly horrible ones.  Our starting pitching will amount to a war by attrition.  We will just keep sending guys out there till one of them accidentally succeeds.

But, you know what?  The club IS trying to get better.  We added our shortstop of the future in the draft.  We have the center fielder of the future in the system (Jocketty, God love him, would have traded Rasmus in a second).  We have some exciting pitching in coming up.  Carpenter is going to take this year to get healthy.  Mulder may round into shape.  Ryan certainly isn't the answer, but he may play some short till Kozma is ready in a couple of years.   Ankiel may just figure things out yet.  We have an absolute STUD closer in the making.

We all knew the run had to end eventually.  While we may snip and gripe about our draft picks, or our signings, I really like the way that Mo is moving the club.  He has cleared roster spots for most of our prospects to really get a chance.  We will know in about 8 months what we can finally make of Ankiel, Reyes, Ludwick, Schumaker, and Ryan.  Who sinks will be replaced, and who floats will make us more flexible going into the future.  

BTW, goodbye Jimmy.  You have been my favorite Cardinal.  I hope the team makes the right move to retire your number.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 17, 2007 5:14 PM EST reply actions  

clemens guilt by association
herad this on espne radio..http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3158304
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 17, 2007 5:43 PM EST reply actions  

JimEd windfall
I would want any windfall money spent with the long haul in mind.  If it is spent for '08 I suspect it would have been best spent on Edmonds.  I think, unless we trade Duncan, that we have all the outfielders we need.  Ankiel has a high ceiling (and a low floor) and needs to be given a full shot.  I'm actually optimistic about a Schumaker/Barton leadoff platoon. They could have a decent obp and give us more pop and usable speed than we've had in a long time.  With Ludwick and Speizio in the mix there's no need for a Mike Cameron or Kevin Mench.
I'd use the money for a one year contract on Jennings with a team option. If something like that can't be done I like vinniefromjersey's idea of designating it for signing draft choices or young Latin ball players.  I think that management could go public with that plan and most fans would approve.

by easy on Dec 17, 2007 6:51 PM EST reply actions  

Spending money just b/c you have it
seems to me to be a terrible strategy.  Check out Gary Huckaby's BP column today about Value over Jack Cust.  Players who add only a little more than Replacement Value are worth the money if you are a few wins away from the playoffs.  My guess is that we are so far away from the playoffs that the difference between Lohse or Towers and someone like Blake Hawksworth or a J.P. Howell type is the difference between 7 games in front of the Pirates as opposed to 4 games.
I guess the question is whether it is worth it to sign a pitcher to a 3-year contract just to show the fanbase that we're not throwing in the towel.
I agree with the posters above that this windfall could definitely be more helpful to sign draftees.  I'm also not opposed to a high-risk/reward 1-year deal like Colon or Prior.  But I'm guessing DeWitt, et al. have a different strategy.

by sdangler on Dec 17, 2007 6:59 PM EST reply actions  

The extra money
I would rather Dewitt keep the $6-7 mil than spend it on reclamation projects or aged vets.

Don't spend it just to spend it.

www.cardinalsgm.com

by tknup on Dec 17, 2007 7:24 PM EST reply actions  

More trades
People have speculated that the Edmonds trade is a precursor to another move.  If it is I think it's most likely that they have something in the works for Rolen that does not involve a third baseman. They may be stock piling fringe prospect 3b's as they have something going that won't involve Laroche or another 3b.  If so I'm hoping it involves a high potential shortstop and pitching.  If we are in a rebuilding phase I think we should be looking at nailing down whatever positions we can for the future  even if we have to leave a position or two up for grabs for the meantime.

by easy on Dec 17, 2007 8:41 PM EST reply actions  

Edmonds for prospect and pitcher - Larry rocks!
Thank you for your excellent analysis of the Edmonds trade, Larry.  The deal looks even better when you add in the opportunity cost of keeping Edmonds as well (allowing Freese potentially to be Spezio's successor for several years at lower cost, plus more playing time in 2008 for Rasmus, Barton, Ankiel).  I  disagree on only one point: Towers.  He is just another #5 pitcher, at best, which is the last thing the Cardinals need to blow money on with Wellemeyer, Thomposon, Reyes already on the team.  Better to roll the dice on Prior or Clement, two ex-Cubs, to add a big, crackling log in the hotstove of this winter of discontent among Cardinal fans....  

by CardsWin on Dec 18, 2007 12:52 AM EST reply actions  

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