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Mitchell Day Chatter

Img_0981_tiny by Alxfritz on Comment 374 comments

Update [2007-12-13 13:18:44 by lboros]: here's the report.

whichever players are named, the two names that should be the most discussed are those of don fehr and bud selig. the union and the commissioner’s office. both organizations tacitly encouraged steroid use in the name of the dollar. steroids led to big home run totals, which led to big money --- for the union members, in the form of gaudy salaries; and for the owners, in the form of tickets and tv contracts and licensed merchandise and everything else. mlb and the union didn’t actively encourage steroid use, but both organizations actively prevented deterrence until congress got involved in 2005. they were the enablers --- without their acquiescence, most of the individual players listed here would probably have stayed clean.

as for the players: i’m not asking any of them to apologize. but i am asking them to be honest. if a guy juiced, then let’s out with it. "there was a widespread steroid culture in the game, and i was one of the many who participated in it." is that so hard to say? the steroid cheats who’ve been honest about their use --- ryan franklin, for example --- aren’t dogged by it; they tell the truth, submit to the corresponding penalty (if any), and move on with their careers, without condemnation. it’s the liars who draw all the grief, and deservedly so.

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Hasn't it already been deteremined
That this isn't the list?  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 13, 2007 12:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I can't get to deadspin from work
So I have no idea what kind of qualifying statements Leitch made when he put that list up, but if it isn't the list he's being amazingly irresponsible (again) for a person whose site gets the kind of traffic his does.  

Wonder if he'll pretend to apologize this time too?

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 13, 2007 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His list
is the same as the one that MSNBC/CNBC had on their sites, so ripping Leitch a new one is pointless, IMO(unless you just don't like the guy).
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

when he put it up
He made it very clear it was not official, just the one that was circulating on the internet, and that they were going to see how accurate it was. Which was, obviously, not very.

So I think Deadspin handled it pretty well, given that some of the actual news sites that ran the first list didn't give those caveats.

by nybirdgirl on Dec 13, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols
Does anyone know how legitimate that it is, that Pujols name is on the list?

by briferg07 on Dec 13, 2007 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

pdf search report on mlb.com
no pujols or rolen but there is Cody McKay and Vina
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 13, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget Cardinals legend Larry Bigbie!
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Former Cardinal....
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Jason Christianson
Vina
Ankiel
David Bell
Bigbie
Franklin

Dave McKay is also mentioned quite a few times as well for his statement that 30% of players are on steroids.  

by Brock20 on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...
I'm not going to speculate and say I told you so about any of the names on here.  Seeing all of the names in one list is pretty powerful.  

by Brock20 on Dec 13, 2007 12:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

not really
People were just dumb, naive or in denial.  Like someone in the main thread said:

"Also, I've got a beef with this kind of retroactive morality that seems to be infesting fandom at this point."

You'd have to be retarded or a homer to not think most of those people weren't going to be on the list.  

lol, no told you so's needed...more like a sarcastic "NO SHIT?!"
 

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 13, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Pujols is on the list
shame on him.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 1:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

DAmon
you know, not to make fun of people, but surely steroids are capable of making your arm strong enough to throw harder than my toddler.  

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 1:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

does it mean anything
that there are a significant number of Cardinals (past or present) on the list?  I count 10, though many didn't see much time on the club.  

by bsbalbrian6 on Dec 13, 2007 1:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Larussa and roids.....
LaRussa teams have been notoriously linked to roids dating back to the bash brothers days.  Not surprising, really.  

The names on the list should be Bud and Selig.  End of story.  No need to point fingers at the players.  They are competitors and will do whatever it takes to get the advantage.  I mean, their are literally millions of dollars riding on it.....

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i feel like when i was in trouble
but my mom said "just wait 'til your father gets home". let's just get this painful thing done with. why make us wait until 1?
Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 1:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Apparently
Senator Mitchell sleeps in?  I dunno.  Most of us in the real world have our business day start at 9 am (at the latest).

Perhaps they are waiting for the Noon hour on the west coast.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1PM CST
The Presser is scheduled for 1PM, I think so they have all morning to organize those that need to be there.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what does it mean...
That Troy Glaus gets two lines, but the Canseco brothers are combined on one?

by tbell61 on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

List
This was mailed to our newsroom this morning. I don't trust it.

Note the misspellings (Schoenwiis), use of proper names (Maurice Vaughn) and nicknames (Pudge Rodriguez).

by sjoshi on Dec 13, 2007 1:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not buying it in full,
either... but it seems like a pretty nice starting point.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why has this speculative list been bumped
to the main thread before the official list is out?  This list is still being disputed on other sites.  Is it too much to ask people to wait an hour in order to get the real list published?  I would have expected that from VEB.

Berne's Pressbox is acting much more resonsibly.  They have an "Official Mitchell Report" thread that bans all early publishing of unofficial lists.  Now VEB will perhaps have an inaccurate list heading it's main thread all day.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
I am discussing the report more then this list.  Larry would you mind pulling this off the main thread so we can go back to your thread from this morning?

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

can't
view it.  Don't know if its my computer or what

by eglasier on Dec 13, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MLB has said
the list isn't entirely accurate. Given that, I think it's unfortunate that this site has chosen to repost it and that we're discussing it.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 1:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

SI.com
Jon Heyman is certain these names are on the list:

Miguel Tejada
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Brian Roberts
David Justice
Jason Grimsley

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 1:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Was just about to post that
thats a whole lot of AL Easters -- but no Red Soxen. I can hear the nonpartisan cry from NY already.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This list is bullshit
Misspellings, double entries, and nicknames?  Also not near enough pitchers on the list -- any guy who's been linked to a steroid rumor is on here.  Why would Mitchell list Canseco on his list when everyone already knows about him?  Please wipe this off and wait for the actual report so everyone can get some context...
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 1:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Better?
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
I guess a link to it is ok, but this list has been pulled from everywhere else so far.  Only 30 minutes till the press conference so not much longer till the real deal.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think for VEB to maintain integrity
the link should be removed.  It's been widely reported to be inaccurate.  It may only have a few names wrong but those people should not be published anywhere, especially if it's for our own entertainment.

Can you just say the official list will be out soon and will be published as soon as we have the real one?  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well you're no fun
the full "official*" list will be put up when it comes out.

* Minus the hundred or so other players who used and weren't named in the report.

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll downplay my "fun" if it protects
people who are implicated wrongly.  How dare I suggest that VEB act as responsibly as Bernie?  What's gotten into my head?  

I thought VEB was interested in evidence and standards.  Fun should be the least of our concerns today.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
This is usually a very responsible site. Not today.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"For VEB to maintain integrity?"
  1.  This is a blog.  It ain't SI.
  2.  You gonna want all the links/references to mlbtraderumors.com removed next?

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's
a blog that has always maintained high standards -- that's why many of us like it so much.

As for the comparison with mlbtraderumors, I would have thought it too obvious to merit mention that a rumor of a free agent signing and a rumor of steroid use are two very different things. And mlbtraderumors at least makes clear, for the most part, that it's peddling speculation. This post didn't.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mlbtraderumors.com has been more responsible
because it has said these links have been disputed all along.  Yes, this is a blog.  But I expect it to be a little more interested in waiting for the true report and a little less interested in our own individual fun.  It's not a tabloid, for goodness sake.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's not go all crazy
there will be plenty of time for outrage later.  Let's wait this thing out.
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not outraged or crazy
I'm just asking VEB to act as responsibly as other organizations.  I don't think Bernie is crazy for holding to these standards.  People shouldn't publish names they don't know to be true on such an explosive story.  That's simple fairness and respect, not craziness.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree nycardfan
I just don't want this site to explode into angry recriminations toward each other.  There will be alot of deserved anger at this list, no need to use it for fights amongst ourselves.

And while VEB does have high standards, no one has said its perfect.  Five minutes.....

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The speculation
is what MLB, the Player's Union and the players who took whatever they took brought on everyone.  It's another by-product of what they did.  

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Speculation
I don't think anyone here is liable for simply speculating on who might be on the list. As to the PUBLISHED list in question...if it's out there making the rounds, I see nothing wrong with bringing it to the VEB members attention, so THEY can come to their own conclusions and opinions on its content. I would assume most here would see it for what it is...false information that is not fact yet.

by Timbo02 on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Why do I
have the feeling that if Pujols' name, or any other current/former Cardinals, weren't on the "list", the "outrage" shown here would be less than palpable...
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 1:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

On MLB TV
Harold Reynolds just said 39 of the names on the Deadspin list were false.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 1:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Reading Mitchell
No Pujols. I CTRL-F'd it, also.

by sjoshi on Dec 13, 2007 1:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And awaaaaay
we go!
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

No Pujols reference
And the only references to Ankiel reference already known news stories.

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup, having Adobe Pro is a blessing
No Pujols, No LaRussa.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TLR is included talking about
Big Mac, McKay talks about 30% use in all of baseball....

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There's much about La Russa
they split it up into La Russa, 20 instances found.

by TICY on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which
is the correct spelling of his name

by baw on Dec 13, 2007 7:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CODY EFFING MCKAY!!!!
you've got to be kidding me!

That is the only name that would have shicked me, and there he is!

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I knew that
knuckleball was juiced!
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 13, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On Ankiel...
And MLB already cleared Ankiel.

by Forsch31 on Dec 13, 2007 2:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The checks at the end of the report
are pretty interesting.. Paul LoDuca, Larry Bigbie, Mo Vaughn, Kevin Brown, Matt Herges, Rondell White, Fernando Vina, Miguel Tejada... the list goes on.

by TICY on Dec 13, 2007 2:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Gary Bennett Jr.
Larry Bigbie
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Vina
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cardinals
Current and former Cardinals listed in the report -- Ankiel, McGwire, Franklin, Larry Bigbie, Cody McKay, Kent Mercker, Jason Christiansen, Fernando Vina, Gary Bennett, and David Bell.

In a way, the number of journeymen, short-time big leaguers, etc. in this list makes sense.  They certainly have the most to gain from any incremental advantage conferred by PEDs.

by holden on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yeah!
no one of much consequence. we knew about franklin and ankiel, and pretty much knew about mcgwire. i'm surprised about some of the scrubs, but i'm glad i'm not seeing mr. pujols name on the list.
Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Vina's
perfectly squared jaw should have been a clear sign of PED's. Nobody's goatee looks that good without help.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He was like a perfectly painted
oil canvas.  
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am too
but it's important to remember, not just about Pujols, that the Mitchell report will not name everyone who used steroids.  I'd be surprised if they got 50%.

I'm not saying Pujols used steroids.  The league has been testing most of the time he's been there.  When I originally saw his name (in the deadspin link) I was surprised b/c baseball's been testing, basically, since he's been in the league.

I'm just saying that we can't say that a person didn't do steroids if his name isn't on the list.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At least Bell got
some bang for his buck.  He went from a utility infielder with absolutely no stick for the Cardinals, to a starter with a pretty big contract in a damn hurry.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ankiel
He's named in the report only as having been cleared by MLB and not found in any of Mitchell's investigation.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 13, 2007 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bigbie..
On December 7, 2005, Bigbie was traded to the St. Louis Cardinals. He called
Radomski to order human growth hormone to prepare for spring training. Radomski by then was
cooperating with the federal authorities, who monitored the call. Bigbie was then approached by
federal law enforcement authorities and began his cooperation with them.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bigbie says he had a source
in Cardinals clubhouse.  Could have been Gary Bennett, could have been anyone else.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bennett I am guessing
I really am assuming it is GB, if you read his past:

Radomski said that Denny Neagle referred Bennett to him. Neagle and Bennett
were teammates in 2001 and 2002 with the Colorado Rockies. Radomski recalled one
transaction with Bennett in July 2003 for two kits of human growth hormone. Radomski
produced one check from Bennett payable to Kirk Radomski in the amount of $3,200 dated
July 13, 2003.

It seems he knew how to get it fairly well.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously...
How stupid do you have to be to pay for your drugs with a check?

by JeffD on Dec 13, 2007 2:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Memo
I was hoping someone wrote "money for performance-enhancing drugs" in the memo.

by Beware the Molinas on Dec 13, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wonderboy, and beware...
at least you both gave me a good laugh.
Thanks, I needed it.

by the Tewk on Dec 13, 2007 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

McGwire
Maybe someone else has read this more throughly than I have, but - from what I've read, they couldn't find a shred of evidence against McGwire other than the Andro situation, Canseco's book, and his horrible testimony before Congress.

Are you telling me that he's being (so far) black balled from the Hall of Fame based on what we already know and nothing more?

by Robb on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the only thing I saw on McGwire
was the Andro thing and that Canseco was the only person to say anything againt him.  Here's an excerpt:

During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire's alleged use of
steroids.

The Phinsider
SBN's Miami Dolphins Blog

by Matty I on Dec 13, 2007 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct
The only thing new in the PDF File is that Mitchell requested an interview and McGwire declined.  THAT...IS...IT.

by lightbulb on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes BUT
I agree that blackballing McGwire from the HOF is highly dubious, but I sure wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he DIDN'T use steroids.  It's not that his testimony before Congress was "horrible," it's that it was a tacit admission of using PEDs.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Innocent until proven guilty?
I agree that his testimony was indeed pretty bad... however, I find it interesting that with all the names the Mitchell Report lists, McGwire isn't really one of them - all that is said is what was already common knowledge.  I found it interesting that they questioned multiple sources and no one had anything to say about McGwire using steroids and that the ONLY person to link him was Canseco.  

Did his testimony make him look bad? Does his turning down Mitchell's request for an interview look bad?  Yes and yes.  

In a court of law, they'd have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  I don't think it's enough in McGwire's case.  And considering they have multiple sources stating they never saw or knew of him using.... perhaps he's owed an apology?  

I'll be the first to agree that if he didn't do it, then he should just say "I didn't do it" and be done with it.  His choice to "not talk about the past" certainly casts a large shadow of doubt.

I suppose the point of my post is this:  I find it interesting that there was no new evidence listed about him, and wonder if it will be addressed at all, by the media or him.

This is more of a general post, bgodar, not directed at you specifically.

by SmashedAtoms on Dec 13, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly talking to myself....
Has he ever tested positive?  I don't believe so.  If he has, it hasn't been made public, to my knowledge.  

Of course, it begs the question... was he ever tested?  Maybe, maybe not.  We don't really know.

I'm interested in this years HOF vote to see how he does, in light of this report.  If he does get voted in, maybe they'll bring out that statue.

On the other hand, what a vote of confidence if they unveil it now just based on this report, BEFORE the HOF vote.  

Feel free to comment.

by SmashedAtoms on Dec 13, 2007 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In all fairness...
pretty much everything in the report comes down to what one person said. I don't believe Canseco any less than some of the suppliers.

by roebirds on Dec 13, 2007 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The important things for Cards fans:
No player from the 2006 World Series team is named!!  That means this championship is NOT tainted!

That includes Mr. Albert Pujols, who can continue to be called the greatest player in the game today!!

And no Darryl Kile.  That damn deadspin list claimed DK was on it.  He isn't and may be continue to rest in peace.

DK57

The Phinsider
SBN's Miami Dolphins Blog

by Matty I on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

indeed
seeing his name on that bullshit fake list made me angrier than seeing Pujols (and not seeing derrek lee).  

(Not that I wanted to see Lee, but if pujols was named I wanted lee to be named too).

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 13, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, have to get this out
Fuck those people who put Pujols on that list.  Credible news organizations run that shit hours before the real fucking list comes out because they are trying to break a damn story.  Journalistic credibility and integrity be damned!!!

What was I saying?  Oh yeah.  Fuck them and all the pretentious assholes that tried to link him to this report.

I am done.  Enough vulgarity.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

someone needs a hug.
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 13, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Albert needs a hug
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As for AP.....
I doubt that Albert cares, he knows the high velocity of the media crap-storm better than anyone here and Im sure he's not surprised by any of it and is having a great off-season getting ready to do what he does next spring.

I guess we expect integrity these days and seem dismayed when we dont see it. During witch hunts 1-- years ago, if you sneezed you could be torched, while we've come a little ways from there..its about money and sensationalism now and money doesnt produce much integrity. Get real.

Lets get on to spring training.

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 13, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Clemens
Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which
Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave
him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over
a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in
Clemens's apartment at the SkyDome. McNamee never asked Clemens where he obtained the
steroids.
During the 1998 season (around the time of the injections), Clemens showed
McNamee a white bottle of Anadrol-50.386 Clemens told McNamee he was not using it but
wanted to know more about it. McNamee told Clemens not to use it.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A pack full of commons
Reading through this report is exactly like opening a pack of baseball cards - about a dozen Cody McKay's for every Roger Clemens.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice!
Best thing I've ever read on VEB.
Rasmus or bust.

by Zoop on Dec 13, 2007 8:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Live to fight another day
Albert Pujols
Scott Rolen
Jim Edmonds
Chris Carpenter
Matt Morris
Jason Isringhausen
Joel Pineiro
Adam Kennedy

Whole lotta ducking and diving.  Not a single scratch.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hahah
I know, not even one mention of those guys.  Vina is probably the biggest name on the Cards list for me and that is a "meh" reaction through and through.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So much heresay
So many names listed in this report wouldn't hold up in a court of law.  If they interviewed someone that said they saw Fred Bird shooting roids and smoking crack, he would have been named.  I'm still pissed that Congress ever go involved with all the crap going on in the world.  I'll admit 1998 brought me back to baseball after the strike, and those that didn't suspect something should be allowed to cross the street alone.

by Whynot on Dec 13, 2007 2:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Congress
Yes Congress held the hearings that Bonds and Big Mac were part of but I think a lot of people (not necessarily you) think Mitchell is still a senator when he is in fact retired and an employee of the Red Sox and MLB now.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Barry Bonds
did not go before Congress.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Opps
I meant Sosa, at least I thought Sosa was there.  Bonds is so equivalent to Steroids now that I just dropped his name into it by mistake.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The List
Lenny Dykstra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Gregg Zaun
David Justice
F.P. Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Adam Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett Jr.
Jim Parque
Brendan Donnelly
Chad Allen
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Nook Logan
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Darren Holmes
Gary Matthews Jr.
John Rocker
Scott Schoeneweis
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A lot of guys who had their careers
randomly and inexplicably end.

Oh, and Ron-DL White.  Never thought about him, but it makes sense.  

No Frank Thomas or Ken Griffey makes me happy for baseball.

by Valatan on Dec 13, 2007 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Giambi, Bonds?
any reason why they weren't included?

by silent_bob on Dec 13, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bond and Giambi
have their own sections.  My mistake.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds
Bonds is included under the BALCO heading not a separate one for himself like everyone else, he is on page 128

Giambi is on page 131

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and a whole lot of nobodies
I am kinda surprised -- no Sammy Sosa?  That's unfair for me to say, but I'm impressed.

I'm also glad that Todd Helton seems to have been vindicated after shamelessly being "outed" as a PED user by John Rooney a couple of years ago.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For the Record...
Hagin said that Don Baylor told him that Helton tried "the juice" but then stopped.  

In an interview with Dan Patrick, Helton affirmed that Baylor told Hagin this, but did not admit to the statement's truthfulness.  Helton then stated that if it was "feasibly possible" to file a lawsuit against Hagin he would.  

Nothing has happened so far.

When Hagin was interviewed later, he said that by "the juice" he meant legal performance enhancers.

by flynn on Dec 13, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it was Hagin
Rooney is more classy than that.

(but that's just my biased opininon as a fan).

by cardsgirlinAR on Dec 13, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hagin isn't really a bad guy either
I've met him personally, and (while that doesn't say everything about the man) think he's a good guy as well.  But I do think he made a mistake in saying that in the way he did, even if Baylor actually told him that.

by saladdays on Dec 13, 2007 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
Interesting that the guy who actually, and undisputedly, said it, Baylor, catches no heat.  Meanwhile, Hagin quotes Baylor and gets pillored.

by flynn on Dec 13, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry
and you guys are right, it was Hagin, not Rooney.  (and I apologize to you, John).  I knew I'd fuck up the name and damned if I wasn't right!  Ironic that I did it when excoriating someone for falsely accusing someone else, huh?

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 6:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Am I missing...
Barry Bonds?  I don't see his ane at all....I could just be blind...but...that seems odd, doesn't it?

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nevermind...
the whole BALCO section covers Bonds/Giambi/Sheffield, right?

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice list of
Sacrificial lambs.  
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're Right
The list is what everyone thought it would be.  A bunch of scrubs or retired guys, with only a couple guys that have all-star potential (Gagne, Tejada, Pettite). I guess it's better than nothing.
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 14, 2007 12:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

List from Section 8 and 9
I could be wrong, but this looks like only the people who are in Section 8 and 9 of the report.

Bonds and Giambi are in a different section.

by enoscountry on Dec 13, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So?..
for those of you who have seen the report... any names that jump out at you ?.. Other than Clemens and Petite?

by Timbo02 on Dec 13, 2007 2:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Woops..
Never mind!!  

by Timbo02 on Dec 13, 2007 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

deadspin or wnbc
or whoever's list maybe crap, but i think some of you are suffering from a little 'roid rage yourselves. someone speculated it, it was posted probably all over the place. be mad at cnbc or whoever, don't get in a huff...

i admitted i halfway suspected pujols may be on the list, as well as a host of others. some were on, some aren't. big deal

Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 2:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Internet rumors are one thing
but both MSNBC, CNBC, ESPN Radio and Rush Limbaugh all reported that Pujols, Damon, etc were on the list.

That's irresponsible.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

right
all the rage against deadspin is what i don't get
Future Redbirds

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

in this thread...
I think I'm probably the only one who "raged" against deadspin.  If Alex had mentioned  CBS, NBC, etc as his source instead of deadspin, I would have "raged" against them as well.  It's absolutely unacceptable to publish a list like that unless you are damned sure it's correct.
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 13, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Different internet sites handled it differently
VEB was among the worst with respect to the false list.  Passing the blame on--it was on other internet sites-- doesn't excuse printing something that almost all of those sites said was reportedly inaccurate.  If you can't get into a "huff" about people being wrongly accused of career altering offenses, then what can you get into a "huff" about?  I'm sure Pujols was in a "huff" this morning about the false report.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is just going to fuel more speculation
This whole list has a lot of unnamed sources too. I have a feeling that even a list of several dozen players who were named won't satisfy the public's apetite for knowledge about those who were not named.  

"On December 7, 2005, Bigbie was traded to the St. Louis Cardinals. He called Radomski to order human growth hormone to prepare for spring training. Radomski by then was cooperating with the federal authorities, who monitored the call. Bigbie was then approached by federal law enforcement authorities and began his cooperation with them.

Bigbie said he has not used performance enhancing substances since he began to cooperate with authorities.

Bigbie stated that there was a lot of small talk among Cardinals players about steroids, and he discussed performance enhancing substances with one player who said that he had a source for any performance enhancing substance Bigbie might want."

So there WAS at least one more Cardinals player with ties, but that player isn't named. "A lot of small talk among Cardinals players?" Hmmm. It also shows that Bigbie was the clubhouse spy. Interesting...

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 13, 2007 2:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Gary Bennett
It could be as simple as that.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One thing we do know
is that it isn't Scott Rolen because Scott could't be bothered with fraternizing with anyone in the clubhouse.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And his shoulder
would be nicely healed by now, no?
"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

people can be friends
without doing steroids together.

Little known fact.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Dec 13, 2007 10:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
It could very well be that simple, it could also be more then that.  It also could have been a groundskeeper who knew a guy.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also
Seeing as Cody McKay is on the list, it could have also been Dave McKay that said it, that could turn out to be the worst case scenario, if McKay is a provider then that connects TLR even deeper then some have already linked him.  But this is all speculation.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But...
You can't really think this unnamed guy would be Albert Pujols.  Even if he did 'roids, he is smarter than that.  Smart enough to not make small talk in the clubhouse about steroids.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I don't
I won't be doing a lot of baseless finger-pointing. I was just highlighting that the report says there was small talk among Cardinals players (plurl).

Small talk could be anything from discussing the best designer PEDs to talking about how they're glad they're not taking them.

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 13, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

any wonder...
why bigbie took off to japan?

by HoosierCardFan on Dec 13, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Besides the fact
that he's not good enough for MLB?

by 26thMan on Dec 13, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols & other players should get together
and sue the FUCK out of some of these news media outlets that jumped the gun and put their names out there before the report was even released.

One other opinion.  If McGwire is barred from the Hall of Fame then Clemens & Bonds should be as well.

by KYCards on Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

they'd have to prove
malice for libel (IIRC) and I don't think they'd be able to do that.

by azruavatar on Dec 13, 2007 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice, AZ
you're dead on!

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

proving would be difficult..
but someone prejudiced this list w/seeming malice.  Maybe they'll try and find out the history of this list (doubtful)

by HoosierCardFan on Dec 13, 2007 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They won't because they'd subject themselves
to discovery, which could be embarrassing....

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FERNANDO NO!!
The Cards at night, are big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas

by texbird on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Apology to Pujols?
WNBC, CNBC, MSNBC, NBC Universal and affiliates should get on their knees now.  How embarassing for them to run with a bullsh-t story and have it really blow up in their faces.  Expect them to ignore the name "Albert Pujols" over the next few weeks.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 2:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

VEB should apologize to Pujols as well
not only for publishing the false list but for staying with it even when multiiple news organizations said it was false.  Also, this morning's thread came close to assuming Puols' guilt as it freely speculated about whether his reaction to the accusation would be received well (and he'd be forgiven by fans) or poorly.  

Pujols deserves the same kind of apologies from internet sites and fans as he does from official news organizations.  I don't buy the crap that if you are writing on the internet, then you are shielded from having to act responsibly.  This shouldn't be all about our fun.  And if that's what discussing the false list was about this morning, then Pujols deserves an extra apology from all of us.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Get off it already
that act is getting old.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was going to be my last post
but your comment about it "getting old" still shows a sense that internet writers should be able to say anything.  You didn't seem to mind having new organizations apologize.  I think Pujols would appreciate the apology more from fans who ran with those false accusations.  I've always taken a hard stand on false steroid acusations in VEB threads--this is not a new concern.  And I don't care if it sounds "old"; it's wrong to spread explosive false rumors.  That's my last word on the subject unless you want to discuss it further.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What you are missing
Is that there is a difference between readers posting that stuff in the comments then if it was linked on the main page by lb or someone.  I mean it is a little ridiculous to expect posters to a message board to live up to some kind of journalistic credibilty level.

by gonzostl on Dec 13, 2007 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh
But this thread (front page right now) had the list in it when LB promoted it.  I think that is why NY was saying VEB should apologize.  That is also why we asked LB or Alx to remove the list, which Alx did replacing it with a link to deadspin.  It wasn't up for long anyway and said clearly that they got it from DS, DS got it in turn from every other place that had a copy mainly WNBC in NY.  NBC messed up the most on this thing and others followed suite.  Really it isn't that big of a deal.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm pretty shocked
that people are so upset about this. the list was never presented, by alex or me or anybody else, as confirmed fact. i credit my readership with having the intelligence to know the difference between an unofficial report and something that's being presented as verifiably true.

speculation is part of what we do here at VEB; i'm not a news-gathering organization. pujols' name was on the list that appeared at CNBC and elsewhere, and i thought it was a legitimate topic of discussion for people to sound off about that ---- what if his name really is in the report once it's released?

i'm sure nobody was harmed by the list being posted here, least of all pujols. sorry that some of you are disappointed in my decision. i'd make the same call again.

by lboros on Dec 13, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the link was left up long after it was discredited
by multiple news organizations.  Also, this site did not give the same cautious qualifiers as other internet sites.  Bernie's site handled it the best, from what I saw.  His blog came out looking good on this one.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you
lboros.  I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 13, 2007 6:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my recollection
is that alex's initial post basically just slapped the list up there with no context -- certainly without any acknowledgment that MLB had already come out and said it was inaccurate.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 7:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Larry,
I expect that just two words(you can guess which ones) on that original "list" are what set some people off. If they weren't there, I guarantee you the tenor of this whole thread would be a lot less combative than it has been.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But the link was on the main page
it stayed there even after posters asked that it be removed and lboros said the link would stay there until the real report came out.  

And I do expect readers to be careful with false accusations, just as I expect them to be careful in real life.  I wouldn't take kindly to false rumors being spread around the office about a co-worker (especially after multiple reports undermined the rumors).  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And that's what irresponsible.
Acknowledging in comments that a list may be false but refusing to remove the link or make note in the post that the list may be inaccurate is extremely poor judgment.

by Forsch31 on Dec 13, 2007 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i stand corrected
And I agree with you then.

by gonzostl on Dec 13, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yo...
You can't fault this blog for reporting a link to a list that various credible sports media outlets were carrying.  It would have been a disservice to the readers of this blog for VEB to not have a link to that list for its readers to peruse.  

This is a sports blog - it is a different type of journalism that relies on the support of the community of fans who read it.  To not provide its readers with access to an extremely popular rumor (the list), valid or not, would mean the blog is not doing its job.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it was left up after it was discredited
by multiple media organizations as being false, so, yes, I can criticize it for linking people to false information.  As I said before, this isn't a tabloid.  People don't have a right to every rumor, just because it's a sensationalist rumor.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

More Thoughts
It was a rumor that inspired great interest and thus should have remained posted on the main thread for all of the VEB community to see.  The fact that MLB discredited it, before the real deal came out, doesn't mean much.  Because MLB discredited it and noted many mistakes with "the list," we were all supposed to assume that the whole thing was false?   And we were all supposed to assume that the source who called this list fake was credible?  There was a whole lot of gray area this morning.  NBC should not report stories that contain loads of gray area.  Community-driven blogs should.

Why not just leave it up there as a link of interest?  It is safe to assume that the intelligence of the VEB community would not take the list too seriously.

No apology is necessary from VEB, in my opinion.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What I'm getting from this is that
intelligent people don't need to apologize because they have a special ability to discern false from true rumors.  

In my experience, intelligent people need to be the most careful about things like this because they are so damn good at rationalizing behavior.  

If something has been said to be true and turns out to be false, that needs to be made clear to people who are smart or stupid.

The real problem is that people couldn't wait an hour for the real list to come out.  They had to dig into the slop, even though they didn't know what they were eating.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nycardfan, your point has been duly noted
I understand your outrage at the false list and the improper claims that could be generated from it. I also understand the high regard you have for the information shared on this blog and that you feel that, by posting this false list, VEB has done a disservice to its readers.

But, please, drop it! More than ten times this afternoon you've posted your feelings on this matter. We are well aware of your position regarding this and do not require further "stirring of the pot" to remember it.

I believe that your customary comments are intelligent and well thought out, so I mean no disrespect to you. But I also believe that Larry runs an exceptional weblog that does not need to be repeatedly trampled on because of a difference of opinion on how to handle highly topical rumors.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Dec 13, 2007 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate your courtesy, as always...
I dropped it earlier.  Since then, I've been answering specific questions addressed to me.  People can skip down when I answer a specific question from a specific blogger.  I'm assuming that's why the blog is set-up in it's indented form, so that people can move to what topics or discussions interests them.

If there are questions addressed to me specifically, then I will answer them.  I'm sorry if that frustrates you.  You don't have to read the back and forth between other people and myself.

I agree this is a respectable site.  But a respectable site can be criticized.  In fact a respectable site should be criticized, especially since it advocates high standards.  I guess I basically disagree that my comments are deeply harming VEB.  But we'll leave that difference in opinion aside.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
It was a half an hour before the report came out -- I honestly don't see what the big deal is.  lboros posted it; it was discredited; and the real report came out.  This was all within a half an hour.  A month from now, no one will remember or give two shits about whether lboros published a formal apology for posting a list (which other credible news sources posted as well) for a matter of minutes on an internet blog.

I think I would agree with all the fuss you are making if this had stayed up for a day or for several hours after the real report came out, but it didn't.  It was literally up for a matter of minutes.  

Besides, you've made it abundantly clear that it wasn't the real list, and so has lboros.  I really don't think Pujols will give a damn one way or the other if lboros, a fantastic writer who runs a excellent blog, apologizes or not.  

by Ray Lankford on Dec 13, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

should we never comment
on trade rumors?  Since they're potentially career altering and not always substantiated.

I don't much care about the Mitchell Report either way but people have a responsibility to be discerning about what they believe and read.

by azruavatar on Dec 13, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Word
Well said.  I also had that thought: trade rumors work the same the way.  

mlbtraderumors.com is a very popular site and, in my opinion, is a blast to read.  As a college kid with time to spare, I visit it multiple times per day.  For the most part, their information is not credible but they work much like this and other blogs - working up interest for the means of discussion.

This is not stlcardinals.com.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Trade rumors? Are you kidding me?
How can you compare a rumor about a trade with a rumor about juicing?  Do you see any difference in how that impacts a person's reputation?  One is open to libel.  One is not.

People on this site have been watching the aftermath of the report all day so we all know Pujols isn't on the report.  What about the busy person who got a glimpse of the TV or the internet this morning and doesn't have time to check back on the news?  I'm not hearing anything about Albert not being on the list in NY because my stations are focusing on NY players.  I could easily think he's a juicer, especially if I were busy and not living in St. Louis.

God love you, Albert.  You've got fans who are arguing that trade and juicing rumors are somehow similar.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha, but...
I appreciate that argument.  You're right.  Juicing and trade rumors are not the same.  

Here's the idea though: Any rumor that is gaining substantial interest, and that might be of interest to the the readers of VEB, and involves a high-profile Cardinals player is fair to be posted and SHOULD be posted.  Too bad if it is incriminating to a beloved Cardinals player.

It was of interest to the readers of this website. It came from a credible source (NBC affiliates). It is not the fault of VEB that this fake list became popular. It was their duty to link it.  Once again, no apology necessary.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And I appreciate your civility
but I think they should have unlinked it once it was reported to be false by credible news organizations.   If people wanted to read a false report, let them go somewhere else, imho.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 5:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rumors are rumors
and neither are likely to end in libel suits.  Just because one could be construed as slanderous/malicious doesn't make it any less false.  If you want to preach about journalistic and personal integrity than that seems like an equally problematic area for you.

This idea that everyone should be ashamed because they speculated on who may have used steroids is silly, imo.  MLB, the players union and the players themselves have created and nurtured the environment that led to this situation.  The blame begins there.  No one's reputation is clean at this point so I'm not sure there's a lot left to impact.

by azruavatar on Dec 13, 2007 6:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No one's reputation is clean...
there would be a BIG difference in the discussion here if Pujols had been named.  His repuation would defnitely be seen in a different light.  So clearly not all rumors are alike.  I was just as vocal about the treatment of Ankiel (with both the media sensationalism and the wild blog speculation that surrounded him).  If you see "preaching" about being accurate to be a poblem, then that says a lot about your perspective.  We'll have to agree to disagree, again.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It was pointed out earlier
that no one was libeled here.  I believe you're right to state that we need to be careful w/ rumors, particularly when dealing w/ steroid use b/c of the stigma that often accompanies them.  But no one's career has been altered b/c VEB had a link to the wrong list.  You are greatly exaggerating the degree of harm that has occurred here.  I'd argue that no one was harmed.  It's time to let it go.

You should read Bernie's extra points column from today. He's a respected journalist (theoretically) and, essentially, said it was laughable that Sammy Sosa wasn't in the report.  He called Sosa "one of the greatest phonies in baseball history."  Fair?  It's certainly a more egregious violation (though maybe not to Pujols' fans) than any committed here by any reader.  You should find your happy place.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Geez--I never said anything
about libel being lodged against VEB.  I simply said fans and VEB should apologize as much as the media for speculating without facts and for being so impatient that they refused to wait for the real report.  And that started a small firestorm.  Speaking about an apology raised a little upcry.  That's interesting.

The difference between rumors harming reputations to different degrees seems absolutely clear.  I can't see how anyone can disagree with that.  That is why libel laws exist.  That was the distinction I was making.  All rumors are not the same.

And I'm sorry.  Bernie has never been that great of a journalist in my mind.  That's why I thought it was ironic that his site handled the matter better.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Check Ch Check It Out
I just read something interesting in Sports Illustrated that is somewhat related to this civilized discourse:

Mike Florio, the editor of ProFootballTalk.com, has this to say about his website: "We don't report rumors as hard news. We trust our readers to know the difference."  

If you've never visited the site, which I might consider criminal, ProFootballTalk.com is easily the most commonly read NFL blog on the internet. It is estimated that 90% of NFL league officials and reporters visit the site regularly. It is respected for witty opinions on NFL stories, and has often broken news stories before ESPN.com, NFL.com, etc. It is easy to compare VEB to ProFootballTalk. Both have excellent writers, often humorous opinions on topics, and a smart, dedicated community. But, once again, this is their mantra: "We don't report rumors as hard news. We trust our readers to know the difference." And nobody has the right to challenge that or this website on its journalistic morality. Because to challenge a site like that or this would be pretty arbitrary. Pretty stupid. These sites are fun. Fun and informative.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here is your quote:
"How can you compare a rumor about a trade with a rumor about juicing?  Do you see any difference in how that impacts a person's reputation?  One is open to libel.  One is not."

I didn't make it up.  Those are your words saying that rumors about juicing are libelous.  They are not as malicious intent is required, seeing as Albert Pujols is a celebrity.  Can you prove malicious intent on Larry's part or Will Leitch's?  If not -- no libel...period.  Libel laws do not apply to anything that happened here or at deadspin...period.

As for Bernie's column, it's curious that you see what he did as being somehow better than posting a link to a website that speculated as to who the names were.  You may not find Bernie to be a "great journalist", but he is employed by a journalistic outlet and his blog is posted on said journalistic outlet's website.  Calling Sosa "one of the biggest phonies in baseball history" on a day in which his name was not 1 of the 80 people named and strongly implying that he did use steroids is, at best, journalistically questionable and, at worst, repugnant.  I'm surprised, considering the outrage you've expressed all day long here, that there's none for Bernie.  In fact, you seem to have saved plaudits for him.  Perhaps there's no outrage left.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 9:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My gosh, are you hard of hearing?
I suggested an apology.  I didn't say there was malicious intent or libel on the part of VEB.  I just said that in my previous post.  

I thought a mistake of judgment was made and an apology was called for.  It didn't seem like a huge thing to say that VEB shouldn't have left the list up after it had been discredited by major news outlets.

As to libel, I was responding to the general remark above stating that there are no differences in kinds of rumors.  I was making a logical distinction that I think anyone should be able to understand.  Not all rumors are equal and not all rumors should be treated carelessly or as mere entertainment.

Now you are blowing this WAY out of proportion--imagining libel and whatnot in connection to VEB.

As for Bernie, shame on him.  Anyone who remembers my posts in th past knows that I'm not a big fan of his so I can even say double shame, since his column fits a certain pattern of his.  As I said above, that is why I found VEB's decision ironic, precisely because it did a worse job than Bernie's site and Bernie's site seemed to handle this particular incident more responsibly.  That's ironic to me.  It's not necessarily a compliment to Bernie.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nycardfan, i'm asking you --- politely ---
to let it go.

your point of view has been given a fair hearing. other points of view have also been heard. by now, readers have enough information to form their own judgments.

i won't be issuing any apologies because a) i'm not sorry for anything i did, and b) i didn't hurt anybody. readers can use that information, too, to inform their judgments.

the discussion is no longer doing the site any credit. let's all just call it a day.

by lboros on Dec 13, 2007 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was not going to leave standing
a comment that I thought VEB was somehow involved in libel.  Other posters need to let this go and not put words in my mouth if you want me not to respond.  I don't want to talk about it anymore.  But I'm not going to have my posts mischaracterized.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

duly noted
please let it go now.

by lboros on Dec 13, 2007 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

one more thing...
...sorry, I'm just trying to see if I can get a post to go over into the red margin .....

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 14, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Chris Mihlfeld
Frankly, the Mitchell report was a bit short on investigative authority. You can track the information flow pretty easily among just a few sources to the named players, so the information that we now have is limited to those few sources and previously published reports. Those players that got caught were either unlucky, stupid, or (perhaps unfairly) subjected to a higher level of scrutiny.  Obviously, a lot more names are still out there.
Most promising for the Cardinals and Pujols is that  Chris Mihlfeld was not mentioned.  He was the reported Grimsley-Pujols trainer link that led to the speculation. We still don't know who the trainer Grimsley alluded to in his testimony was, but the federal authorities/Mitchell commission must not have found Mihlfeld an important enough link to follow.    
All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up embittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Dec 13, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The trainer was Clemens and Pettitte's trainer
that was established last fall.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

McNamee
is his name I believe.

by indakind on Dec 13, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mcnamee
He was the link.  The name was redacted in the federal report that Mtichell had access too.  I did not see that that name was made available in the report in this context.  However, all the known Macnamee links were exposed, ergo this Pujols link is most likely completely fabricated.

All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up embittered and conservative." -- George Will

All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up embittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Dec 13, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mcn
All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up embittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Dec 13, 2007 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Initial leaked list
I heard the initial list is actually guys who are linked to roids but not all of them quite had enough evidence aka....checks linked to roid purchases.

It is thought many on the initial list are still guilty but they did a better job of hiding the fact that they purchased roids.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 13, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This list doesn't clear anyone...
It just says we found proof for the people mentioned.  So, it's not like Albert won't still have to hear this kind of talk for the rest of his playing days.

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Frank Thomas was the only other active
player to speak to Mitchell.

Good for him, that monster of a man.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

ugh
Everything Frank Thomas does is for the benefit of Frank Thomas, so the fact that he'd speak to this report knowing he can't be accused of doing anything wrong in the mid-90's make his numbers look better when compared to his peers who have been accused of stuff like this.

Jason Giambi is really the one who should be praised here, not Frank Thomas.  He came forward after being in the crosshairs and has said that the players really shouldn't have done these things and that baseball needs to take an approach to clean it up.  Just because he's guilty doesn't suspend the fact that he came out and admitted his mistake and also spoke with the Mitchell report.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What??
You're going to put Giambi as the "good guy" and diss The Big Hurt??  Please....

Frank Thomas would have 3 MVPs if he didn't finish 2nd in the voting in 2000 to guess who?  Jason Giambi.

The fact that Frank did what he did clean in this era makes him that much more of an incredible player.  In my mind me is a no doubt first ballot guy.  

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1st ballot guy?
That comment deserves it's own thread of rebuke and I'm not getting into it here.  If he's a first ballot guy than so are about 5 or 6 others who aren't even in Hall!  To say that Frank is better than guys like Fred McGriff and Jim Rice despite being a godawful defensive player and getting most of his at-bats at DH is a complete injustice.  I guess you'd put Jim Thome in the hall on the first ballot too?

Just because you were a great player for a five year stretch hardly makes a you a first ballot Hall of Famer.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention....
the fact that he's been a self-serving, egotistical crybaby for most of his career and spit venom at the entire White Sox organization and Kenny Williams after leaving.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

-1
 If that's a factor for HoF, then they'll need to take many out of it, starting with Ty Cobb.

by Recon on Dec 13, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kenny Williams needs all the venom
spitting he can take.  He's so paranoid that he had MLB purchase the domain name "FireKennyWilliams.com".  He challenged Thomas to a fist fight.  He's a nutcase.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Frank Thomas was one of the few....
in the 90s who was STRONGLY advocating the MLB to have a testing policy in place.  Does that make him a "crybaby" because he refused to cheat like Canseco and the rest?  C'mon brah....

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
I don't think you realize how good Frank Thomas was during his five year stretch. OPS+ from his first full year to 1997:

180
174
177
211
178
178
181

Here's the complete list of players who have had at least seven seasons with an OPS seventy percent better than the league average:

13-Babe Ruth
10-Lou Gehrig
9-Ted Williams
9-Barry Bonds
8-Rogers Hornsby
7-Mickey Mantle
7-Ty Cobb
7-Frank Thomas

And Frank Thomas did it seven years in a row. His career OPS+, even now, is over 150, which is in the top 20 of all time. To compare him to Jim Rice is absolutely absurd; his top ten years are all better than Rice's very best as a hitter.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 13, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What's up...
with the lack of respect for Thomas?

I swear I've heard it over and over... Just yesterday some clown was on the radio saying Bagwell would have his vote as a first ballot HOF'er, but that Thomas was borderline. That makes zero sense.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Dec 13, 2007 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's put it this way...
If the Big Hurt was roiding out like everyone else over the past 15 years he would be in Bonds range with regard to the numbers he'd have put up.

And Big Hurt is better than Crime Dog and Rice.  Check the stats.  More than a "five year stretch"  Also 2 MVPs... and again should have had a 3rd in 2000 if he was not robbed by Giambi.  Yeah he's a DH but Crime Dog and Rice weren't exactly winning gold gloves ever.

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Steroids test from 03?
Weren't there players who positively tested the first year of the testing program that weren't supposed to be identified, but due to a lab screwup they could be identified? Were these folks in Mitchell's report?

I take this report as just a partial list of the players, I don't think you can label someone not on this list as clean. And that's the sad thing about this whole ordeal.

by Yellow Dog on Dec 13, 2007 3:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Barry Bonds was named
I don't think Mitchell was allowed to use those names because of MLB's Basic Agreement.  The Feds can, he can't.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols, we love you!
I'm so happy he wasn't on the list.  I saw the false list this morning and was surprised to see him on it.  My buddies and I always joke that he is the most tested athlete for roids in the MLB.  Glad to know he won't get pulled through the muck. As for Clemens. . . well I never liked him anyway.

by stlwizzer on Dec 13, 2007 3:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good article from BP about "the list"
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=700

For those of you that disliked the fake list, read the above article, he does a really good job on talking about how stupid it was.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 3:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Clemens
It looks like Clemens use goes all the way back to 1998.  That is 108 of his 354 wins tainted by steriods.

by gonzostl on Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

don't forget...
this investigation covered a finite period of time

by HoosierCardFan on Dec 13, 2007 3:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Man, how I would love to be a fly
on the wall in MLB front offices today.  I'll bet owners, GMs and coaches are having some damned interesting conversations right now.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

After having scanned the report
(nobody can read the whole 400+ pages briefly)... with a few exceptions (Say it ain't so, Sno-Cones!), there's not much "new" in this report.

The only guy who says McGwire was "using" is Canseco... "andro" was legal in 1998... Ankiel says he used HGH with a doctor's prescription in an effort to heal from surgery. We already knew that!

One recommendation I find useful is to have baseball's drug-testing done by an INDEPENDENT entity; one connected neither to MLB or the MLBPA.  There'll always be somebody trying to "beat" the system... but let's put as good a "system" in place as possible.  (And no, the NFL's "system" ain't it!)

From scanning the names in the Mitchell Report (past and present), it seems increased chance of injury is one of the risks taken with the use of steroids, as opposed to HGH.  Were I a player, I'd want my union to treat PEDs as a health issue!

The sad thing is that darn near every star player will be looked at with suspicion... since Albert Pujols is a better freakin' hitter than 99.999% of people on the planet, there's always going to be somebody that thinks he's had "help" to be as good as he is!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 13, 2007 3:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

From HuffingtonPost.com
"Full Mitchell Report: Clemens, Pettitte, Pujols, Varitek Included"

Now where is the journalistic integrity? Get your facts straight and separate rumors from fact.

by davethebutcher on Dec 13, 2007 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Kevin Brown
Here's an excerpt that i found humorous...

Radomski said that Paul Lo Duca referred Brown to him in 2000 or 2001 when
Brown and Lo Duca were teammates with the Dodgers.  Brown called Radomski and they spoke
about human growth hormone for one or two hours.  Radomski said that Brown was "very
knowledgeable" about human growth hormone.  Brown was placed on the disabled list in June
2001 with a neck injury and in July 2001 with an elbow injury.  After Brown got hurt, he called
Radomski again and asked for human growth hormone.  
Radomski said that he sent human growth hormone to Brown by overnight mail
and called Brown several times to make sure he had received it.  Brown finally returned
Radomski's call and confirmed he had received it.  Soon thereafter, Radomski returned home
one day to find an express delivery package from Brown on his doorstep, wet from the rain.  
When he opened it, he found that it contained $8,000 in cash.  Radomski called Brown and told
him not to check the signature waiver box on the overnight delivery package when he was
sending cash, because the envelope was left on Radomski's doorstep for several hours and could
have been taken.

although checks and money orders leave paper trails, paying via cash has its own set of issues.

I'd rather my sister become a prostitute than my brother become a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Dec 13, 2007 3:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Anyone else think it's time
for Congress & others to pick on:
NFL
NBA
COLLEGE FOOTBALL
COLLEGE BASKETBALL
NHL

and their steroid problems??

Yeah there is a BIG steroid problem in baseball and this report proves it, but I think it is time for the other sport origanizations take some of the heat with the media & general public the way MLB has.

Steroids is not just a baseball problem and I think it's only fair that leagues like the NFL & NBA get their attics and basements looked through now.

by KYCards on Dec 13, 2007 3:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's long past time
It was past due before the NFL voted Shawne Merriman the defensive player of the year.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No.
I've never understood why Congress got involved to begin with in a full-fledged investigation. There are more pressing issues than athletes ruining their lives with steroids. If they want to get those illegally prescribing, fine, but that's a little under Congress. Hire a detective to get it straightened. Not friggin' Congress.

As they say, distract you with the small stuff to screw you on the big stuff.

Rasmus or bust.

by Zoop on Dec 13, 2007 8:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

100% agree
And we swallow this tripe.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 13, 2007 9:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mmmmm....
tripe!
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 14, 2007 1:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Money
You could look at it is fraud.  MLB is a multi-billion dollar business and these guys are using illegal means to enhance the product they put out.  And it's not like Congress dedicates their entire docket to the steroids issue in MLB.  They should be involved because it sets a dangerous precedent to encourage widespread use of an drug of which no one knows the long-term side effects.
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 14, 2007 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Sabean
Man, if bad contracts weren't enough, he gets roasted in the Mitchell Report for KNOWING about the steroid use by the San Fransico Giants and that Anderson was starting to turn other players on to the stuff.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 3:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

that is bad
interesting comments regarding donnelly and gagne between red sox officials too. they knew he had ped issues, and traded for or signed them anyway
I will be boxers

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Which was a bigger relief?
... Wainer dropping in strike 3 on Beltran ...

                  -- or --

... The Cardinals escaping this report relatively unscathed ...

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Dec 13, 2007 3:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

my sentiments exactly
I pulled the PDF, searched by "Pujols," and the results of that search made me happier as a Cards fan than I have been since October '06. Searching by "Cardinals" didn't diminish that much.

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 13, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As good as this feels,
I'd still have to go with Wagonmaker nailing Beltran's bat to his shoulder.

by Jhusk on Dec 13, 2007 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wainer...
Wainer dropping in the knee-bender....by far. Now that this artificial front-office soul cleansing and purging of all evils for the consumption of the media to shine its heavenly puriying light on it, no doubt Wainers feat was greater....and a hell of a lot less conspicuous,
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 13, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i wasn't sitting at home on the edge of my couch
demanding my wife keep quiet while waiting for the Mitchell report.

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But what's the more IMPORTANT...
Oh, believe me, I wasn't saying in any way that Wainwright making Carlos go "Buh?" isn't the most awesome, amazing feeling we've had for some time in baseball. It was definitely more exciting.

But as I'm sitting at my work, checking the clock in the corner of the computer screen, waiting for the report to be released, there was a HUGE feeling of anticipation...and an equally huge feeling of dread. I knew that if certain names came out (Pujols, duh, and very unlikely -  Molina, in particular), my Cardinal-love would have taken a big hit and watching a game never would feel the same for me. With all that at stake, my breath was definitely bated and I'm just wondering if the relieved "phew!" I whispered when I saw no important names were listed was the more meaningful.

Waino drops that knee-wiggler and we win...I'm ecstatic. Beltran busts us for a game-winner, there's always nexy year (even though we saw how THAT played out). But if some of the marquee guys are listed...let's just say my joyful innocence for the Cardinals is gone.

When Waino dropped that strike and I dropped off the couch, that was the end of an amazing series, but if Mitchell dropped the names of Pujols and company, it was likely the end of true fandom for me. Now I can go on watching and rooting, with, I'll admit, a learned ignorance...but a blissful one.

I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Dec 13, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The red sox made out pretty well too
but thats not the case for the Yankees or the Orioles.  Hmmmmm...AL east.

   

mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And Mitchel is part owner of the Red Sox
Any other conspiracy nuts on here with me want to go down this path?

by gonzostl on Dec 13, 2007 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you were a hard core
Yankees fan you may not feel the same way.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually if I was a Yankee's fan
I would really be screaming that there is a conspiracy if I was a yankee fan. That and I would have to have a labotomy......(jokes)

by gonzostl on Dec 13, 2007 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

donnelly, gagne
hello?
I will be boxers

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

both were very expendible for Boston
...and actually both are already gone from the organization.  Gagne over to Milwaukee and Donnelly was the only 1 of 21 not to be tendered.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From the report: page 209
From the Mitchell Report regarding Paul LoDuca:

"According to the notes of an internal discussion among Los Angeles Dodgers officials in October 2003 that were referred to above, it was reportedly said of Lo Duca during
the meetings:

'Steroids aren't being used anymore on him. Big part of this.
Might have some value to trade . . . Florida might have interest.
. . . Got off the steroids . . . Took away a lot of hard line drives.
. . . Can get comparable value back would consider trading. . . . If
you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he can have a good year. That's his makeup. Comes to play. Last
year of contract, playing for '05.'"

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looks like someone in the Dodgers meeting was saying the following:

  1.  Lo Duca is off steroids right now.
  2.  His value has dropped due to getting off steroids...less line drives, etc.
  3.  Lo Duca is willing to get back on steroids to increase his value.
It looks to me like someone within the LAD organization was saying they would encourage Lo Duca to start taking steroids again to increase his trade value.

It's also implied that Lo Duca won't have a problem with taking again because he's in the last year of his contract and is looking for a payday.

Once again, maybe I'm reading this wrong.  But this looks to me like the Dodgers were actively encouraging a player to take steroids to increase his value.

If true, this is a step beyond looking the other way and feigning ignorance.  This is more than enabling.  It's active endorsement.

Is anyone else surprised this sort of thing may have gone on?  Is anyone else as shocked as I am?

by arch support on Dec 13, 2007 3:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually, no
I am not surprised at all.  If this had been the Cards I would have been.  But I am not surprised that some executive has had the thought that "hey maybe steroids could help us get more out of this deal"

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

perhaps the good outcome
No shock or surprise. The Dodgers just kept records that were acquired by Mitchell. All clubs were (are?) complicit; Selig and Fehr are complicit; the fans are, too. Sigh. The first two groups profited financially; we profited emotionally, if only by ignoring the problem and worshipping our heroes.

I'm hoping that MLB, ownership, and Fehr come under more fire than the named players, since that's the only chance for something good to come out of this.

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 13, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Arch
If you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he can have a good year. That's his makeup. Comes to play.

I read that as: "if you trade him, he will get back on the juice after he's traded--to prove to you that you made a mistake in trading him."

youneverknow

by meat on Dec 13, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh
That's an interesting reading.  I think you've got it more accurately than I did.

by arch support on Dec 13, 2007 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's baseball
Reading something like that (if true) is just another chalk up for how big a mind game baseball is.  Lo Duca thinks he can't hit when he's off steroids so he doesn't hit.  If he starts taking them again, he hits.  It's a self-fulling prophecy, IMO.
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 14, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

report
all in all, the mitchell reports seems an inevitable, unavoidable step, if baseball is to get "clean".  i thought mitchell's oral presentation was very well crafted and that he recognized the "less than complete" nature of the report and the list of players.  without names, however, the report loses impact, so they are necessary.   i'm sure that is why he emphasized moving forward and not making the list one for doling out punishments.  this absolves him of the incompleteness issue.  in addition, it should be no surprise that the "fringe" players are pretty heavily involved; they have the most to gain (e.g., d. bell).  those who paid by check, however, has little to do with baseball skills and lots more to do with arrogance or stupidity or both.

makes one wonder if this is why bennett was let go.

by sportsman on Dec 13, 2007 4:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Talk about irresponsible
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/EF0D62660FC095D0862573B000709ED0 ?OpenDocument
KTVI Reported on Pujols and Kile being on the list, and didn't retract the statement until well after it had been pulled off the other sites already.  Big Opps there.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 4:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow...
... it's a Fox station. Why am I not surprised? And why send a reporter to his restaurant to interview employees and patrons? ("Wha!? Pujols juiced?" as I choke on my chicken and rice.)

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 13, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

POND SCUM and other observations
It's interesting to trace the river of slime. It begins in the clubhouse of the late-1980s Mets. Little scrappy Lenny Dykstra, probably following a drug connection from Strawberry, Mitchell, Hernandez, ... basically anybody but Gary Carter ... gets into steroids. And the connections start from there and link up all the way to Larry Bigbie and more.

Another source is, of course, the A's. I'm interested to learn what the A's' and Mets' clubhouses of the 1980s had in common, whether in players who were traded, trainers, whatever. One more argument that all the player trades and free agency are bad for baseball: the cancer may have terminated within those two clubhouses, assuming the collective bargaining hadn't killed the attempt at drug testing.

The Orioles become an important waystation in the late '90s, with frickin' David Segui acting as Dr. Feelgood.

I love that tough-man Clemens couldn't deal with shooting HGH in his belly-button. Wussy!!!

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 13, 2007 4:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lenny
Is Dykstra the first guy linked to steroids?
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 14, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

at least in the Mitchell Report
Dykstra was first chronologically here, which only means he's the first guy to purchase from Radomski. There were no doubt some juicers before then. I just thought it was important to point out that this wave of the plague emanated from that cocaine-riddled clubhouse, which also released the Strawberry and Gooden soap operas.

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 14, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

COMMISH SELIG!!!
Having his presser now.  Let's all sit and watch and bask in the warm glow of his strong leadership!!!

/sarcasm

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 4:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Many here are naive
Sorry to say but that was only an "expendibles" list.  I would bet based on what I've heard from former pro and college athletes (in personal conversation) that illegal performance enhancers are a way or life for most of big time sports. PERIOD.  It seems like a lot of  pro athlete worshippers want to keep their heads in the sand.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 4:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Clemens
is an expendable?  He was being hyped up by the media and baseball as the "greatest pitcher of the modern era!"  That is a HUGE coup for the Mitchell Report...if precedent holds, then Clemen's HOF candidacy will be severely tainted and may not succeed at all.  Also, I believe this report was the first official MLB document that implicated Bonds as a user.  Huge deal.  I am not saying your theory is wrong, but saying all of these guys are expendables is categorically false.

I would also include players like Tejada, Gagne, Palmeiro and Petitte in that statement.  Just in that list, you have one Cy Young and one MVP, one HOF worthy career and one excellent starter with multiple World Series appearances and titles.

Plenty of big names and implications.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well if you're George Mitchell
then Yankees and Orioles are expendible...are they not?
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why he included
a member of the 2007 champion Red Sox and Mo as well?  Clemens started his career with the Sox and had huge moments with them.  This revelation hurts them as much as anyone.  Besides the Sox, I am sure half of the league, maybe more, do not have a single player on this list.  It's all a conspiracy, though!!!!

In other news, Barry Bonds faked the moon landing, Miguel Tejada shot JFK, Andy Petitte created the Da Vinci Code, and Eric Gagne knows exactly where Hoffa is buried.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Clemens was a parraha
and the Red Sox have been the butt of jokes for saying Clemens was washed up and letting him go on to win Championships elsewhere (with Cy Youngs).

This is vindication for their organization.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know what a parraha is
but even if Clemens was a pariah, he still won three Cy Youngs and a MVP while in Boston, events that cannot be looked at with innocent eyes any longer.  

Regardless of how he left, I fail to see how 10 years of dominant pitching, with a little help, can be seen as vindication.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Clemens
already denied his use...but who can he sue?
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 13, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Piraha
It's a tribe of 360 Amazonians. Dan Everett studied them for years and reports that their language lacks terms for numbers and perhaps colors and most importantly, lacks grammatical recursion—if true, it's the only non-recursive natural language known.

I thought Roger Clemens was from Texas, though.

by liam on Dec 13, 2007 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to be confused
with the pirahna, the ravenous killer of the Amazon. Of course, I also do not think Roger Clemens is a meat eating fish.
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gagne was not a factor
in that team's championship.  they just got rid of him and it makes Mitchell look credible when Papy and Manny are blasting 9000 ft home runs.(I'm taking a bit of liberty with those distances but get my point)  This is clearly a case of CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Don't you think there is a list of untouchables that are clearly too hot to handle and damaging to baseball financially?  They wouldn't be included here.  Everyone else has time to "clean up" their act.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Manny and Ortiz
First of all, there is NO WAY Manny Ramirez could pull off the stealth required to support an illegal drug habit.  Hell, he would probably sell the cancelled check from the transaction on Ebay with his used underwear, car, and grill.

Ortiz on the other hand....who knows?  Certainly one can't just be big and considered a user.  I would think he would have been someone on the lips of these rats, yet there was no mention.

Of course, if you are going to try and prove a conspiracy theory, his absence from the report is proof of a Red Sox scandal....facts be damned!

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 7:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RE: Manny
"Hell, he would probably sell the cancelled check from the transaction on Ebay with his used underwear, car, and grill." Ha-Ha, great post.

by Big Head on Dec 13, 2007 8:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gagne's ineffectiveness
is not an excuse for his presence.  The Red Sox intentionally traded for him and certainly would have loved for him to be light's out.  Unfortunately, the juice ran out.  Give it up, man...it was a decent, if not excellent report.
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget
Varitek, the team captain is listed

by ridgesee on Dec 13, 2007 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and here we have
a prime example of why the people who posted the bullshit list need to be punished.  

Ridgesee is a smart guy, a consummate baseball fan with access to more information than probably 95% of the people who will be in the stands on opening day, and he still got the fake list confused with the real list.  And Jason Varitek was unfairly accused yet again, as I bet he will be unfairly accused hundreds of thousands of times in the upcoming months by other smart people who read the wrong list without paying attention to the fine print.

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 14, 2007 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

clarification
I don't mean the good people on this forum, or even the bums on deadspin.  I mean the mainstream journalists from fox, msnbc, etc and the person who put the fake list together and tried to sell it as truth.  
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 14, 2007 12:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Off Topic, but
Your signature gives me a chuckle every time I see it.

by liam on Dec 14, 2007 12:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

...and mo vaughn is long
seperated from that organization.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Could it at all be possible that Curt Schilling
may be using HGH?  Based on what you've seen from other pitchers of his 'ilk'
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely its possible
and I don't think this is a comprehensive report.  There is just no way one investigation could uncover it all.  Be prepared for more names to be released.

Wondering it and outright questioning the motives of a respected former government official is something completely different.  I think Mitchell did an excellent job considering the hassles by the MLBPA and the general incompetence of the Selig administration.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Injuries / performance
A pattern of injuries and up/down seasonal performances in the listed group of players appears to be visible, but without comparing them to the non-group in some formulative way, its just pure speculation.

Id be interested in seeing some hard numbers in the future compraing injuries etc. etc. to the rest of the population now that theres a little more data.

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 13, 2007 4:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Selig's Screw Up
Selig is totally going in the wrong direction.  He intends to punish those named on a "case-by-case" basis and will selectively punish those "who hurt the integrity of the game." Going against Mitchell's recommendation for no punishment.

I'm pretty sure Selig going that route will hurt the integrity of the game more so than any individual player.

by enoscountry on Dec 13, 2007 4:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If Selig
really wants to help the integrity of the game, he'll retire today, and take Donald Fehr with him.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 4:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2000 Yankees
9 members of the 2000 Yankees made the list.

by ilovetatis on Dec 13, 2007 4:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Blinded by Cardinals Red
I understand we are all Cards fans, but how come we are only demanding an apology to Pujols for the false list?  There are many other wrong names on there.

by Whynot on Dec 13, 2007 4:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think
you've answered your own question.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 4:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm all for the apologies to others
the only one I care about is Pujols though.  Eh, sure me, I'm a fan.
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think Kile
Being on that rumor list was the most distateful for me.

by gonzostl on Dec 13, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone unfairly implicated is a disgrace
Living or dead is no distinction for me.  These organizations just want the breaking story and care nothing about substance or truth.  Just being first.
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You've got a good point there...
I just know my own players better.  But I hope they all get apologies.

I agree about Kyle being particularly distateful.  Whoever put him on that last should be really ashamed of themselves.

I actually think Ankiel deserves some sympathy since he took so much heat, all alone in the spotlight, and then wasn't even mentioned as an offender.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You seem to be of the impression
that Ankiel was falsely accused of using HGH.  That's not true.  Baseball exonerated him b/c he had a dr's prescription but he bought the stuff.  I suppose no one physically saw him take it, but we know w/ 100% certainty that he bought it.  

And I think Ankiel took relatively little heat.  It died out in a couple of days.  Let's face it -- he did what it was reported he did and I don't think his reputation's been particularly tarnished...

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 7:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He was falsely accused of doing something
illegal (when it had not yet been banned) and became the figurehead of this report, which does not even cite him as an offender.  Bloggers talked about him as a mental case for weeks because his performance plummetted.  Many failed to distinguish between HGH and steroids, as you yourself pointed out, and concluded he was a juicer.  Being the figurehead of this report (when he wasn't even named) and the center of a media circus that spun out of control seems like heat to me.  

And of course his reputation was tarnished.  Does anyone talk about him as the come-back kid?  All that had nothing to do with this season and yet it influenced how people perceived his performance this year.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 8:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel
was he accused of doing something illegal?  Perhaps by people on sports-talk shows or on some blogs but not by the media outlets that reported it.  In fact, every article I read about his purchase of HGH stated clearly that he had a doctor's prescription and that it wasn't banned by MLB when it occurred.  Frankly, 90% of what I read online about the article recognized that his purchase of HGH didn't violate any laws or the rules of MLB at the time.

I'll agree that many can't distinguish between HGH and steroids and believe HGH to be a PED.  

I don't understand your comment about "being the figurehead of a report in which he wasn't even named" as he was clearly named in the article that reported that he received HGH.  He was also named in the Mitchell report though, considering the attention Clemens and Pettitte are receiving, I would hardly call him "the figurehead" here either.

As for "being at the center of a media circus that spun out of control" -- I think you're greatly exaggerating what happened.  It was a big story for 3-4 days.  As people realized his purchase was legal in every sense, it died away -- much as the Paul Byrd story did.  Was his reputation tarnished?  Most realize what he did was legal -- marginally tarnished, at best.

As for bloggers talking "about him as a mental case for weeks" -- I haven't read that but, even if it's true -- bloggers and others have talked about him as a mental case for 6 years.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

there was widespread and vigorous disagreement
on VEB over the treatment of Ankiel with respect to that story.  I don't want to open that up again.  Let me just say that numerous VEB readers had a different reaction than you did to the whole Ankiel episode, especially in terms of how the media handled it.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bah
I know no one's gonna agree with me, but I think this is just another witch-hunt. We should be embracing technology. If someone wants to ruin their body, health and/or life in the long-term to make themselves a super-duper athletic machine, that should be their choice. They're adults and what they  ingest/inject/smear on themselves is their own business. There's enough information out there for them to be able to make educated decisions about it, and there'd be even more if it was widely available, tested and regulated.

now I'll go crawl into the corner in the fetal position so everyone can throw stuff at me.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 13, 2007 4:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well said...
I love what Charles Barkley once said, "I'm not your child's role model!"
Then he considered running for governor...
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree with that argument
but it is definitely one that needs to be made.  No one even seems willing to entertain it.  

I honestly see it as a workplace safety issue--there are reasonable risks, and we shouldn't have an environment where people flame out á la Ken Caminiti, all the while being manipulated by owners and managers who grow rich off of encouraging the players to do this to their bodies.  

On a lighter note, do we want mlb to look like this?

by Valatan on Dec 13, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely a witch-hunt anyway...
I dunno about letting them do anything, but this definitely is a witch hunt.

First all the rumors of players being on the list.

Then when the list comes out, anyone not named on the list is still under suspicion. People say not being on the list doesn't make them innocent.

And even some of the "evidence" in the Mitchell report itself isn't very strong.  Like McGwire is based entirely on Jose Canseco's book.  

If the bar is set at what what Jose Canseco says, then things are pretty bad.

by DiscoJer on Dec 13, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Only one problem...
They are against the rules.
"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 13, 2007 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well hell its
done lets get some pitching and play ball

by cm1000 on Dec 13, 2007 5:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i love the checks in the report
especially the fruit who had flowers on their check..order your roids with like a Harley davidson check or something
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 13, 2007 5:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Slang
for homosexual

by saladdays on Dec 13, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it was in about 1957
I'm sure that he must mean something else, and isn't calling someone a homosexual because he has flowers on his checks

by tdawg on Dec 13, 2007 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not necissarily
for example wherei come from gay does not mean you like the same sex it can mean strange weird etc..you can be fruity and straight..i have known many feminine men who are straight...however see how the comment made could be interpretd that way..so sorry if it seemed offensive not my intent..i was meerly making fun of the checks..
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 13, 2007 5:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah you're right
That is actually a way I know it too.  Had a brain fart and forgot about.

by saladdays on Dec 13, 2007 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
it must be slur week at veb

by Valatan on Dec 13, 2007 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that
my posting speaks for itself...I'm not the most intelligent VEB user but have never intentionally used slurs or attacked other posters in anyways..people are very testy on here today..Testy zing...i think it was more an issue of different cultures anyway appologize for any offense...

I was trying to be funny cause the guys buying roids..this thing that makes you stronger with a flower check..to me comical

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 13, 2007 8:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I apologize too
Didn't mean to imply something that she didn't mean.

by saladdays on Dec 13, 2007 9:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who is she?
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 13, 2007 11:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
Typo (not that I actually knew your gender for sure anyway, but I usually say "he" anyway).

Man, I'm making a lot of mistakes today....

by saladdays on Dec 14, 2007 12:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha
How's that for ironic?

by arch support on Dec 14, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And the real winner of the Mitchell Report day is.
Bonds of course.  Now he has tons of friends in the doghouse. Things are looking up for Barry!

Except of course, for that whole possible jail time thing.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 5:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Somewhat agree with let 'em do it.
If you can legally buy it, I say let them use all the supplements they want i.e. andro in the day.  If it takes a fake doctors prescription, turn it over to the authorities and let them handle it like you would the average joes prescription fraud.  Then suspend them so they can do their community service.  This kind of reminds me of the Simpson's were Kang and Kronos run for president.  "Abortions for some, but not for others."

by Whynot on Dec 13, 2007 5:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Over on the Yankees blog
Someone reported that this investigation costed 50 million dollars.  Can anyone confirm this?  If this is the case than Mitchell is the one we should be pointing fingers at....
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 6:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think BP
said $20 M -- Still some serious coin.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 7:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OK
So who paid for it?   What will come of it???
Was it MLB money or taxes?
I think we already know the answer to the second question.   NOTHING!!!!!!!
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 7:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why
would tax money be involved?  Please, get the facts straight: Mitchell is a retired U.S. senator brought in by MLB, paid for by MLB, to investigate.  This report has no real connection to the Congressional hearings on steroids of a few years ago.

by jfs on Dec 13, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What?
Are you fucking kidding me?  How much did Mitchell charge his pal Bud?  It would really be great if it came out that half that money went right into Selig's pocket, and Mitchell got the other half so long as he didn't name last year's starting All-Stars.  That's bogus if this process cost a quarter of that amount.  I get the impression this was a relatively informal process, and just from glancing through the report, most of what they gathered comes from that Radomski guy who sang like a little boy. It's not like this was preparation for a lawsuit with actual depositions and expert witnesses.  They talked to people, read emails, and followed leads.  A twenty-month sojourn that returned little new or useful information, and cost millions of dollars.
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 14, 2007 12:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meh
50 mill for a two year investigation delving deep into MLB's biggest secrets that have drawn widespread cricism from fans, commentators, congress and the president (W) himself?  Yeah, that doesn't seem too outrageous to me, considering many people believe this goes to the very integrity of the game.  Its a couple years of A-Rod, right?  Or half a year of the Cardinals.  

Now if they'd have spent 1 million dollars, then I think there would be an uproar over a straw man investigation done only for appearance sake.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 13, 2007 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No...
it didn't "costed" $50MM, it cost only $20MM.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well!
Now that's a bargain! Gene Simmons can buy a new, longer tongue with that kind of cash.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

...LOL!
...and have it lengthened on TV for everyones entertainment...sad!
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 15, 2007 4:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon! Use the "Reply to This" button!
That way we'll know who it is you're yelling at...and doing so won't have "costed" you a thing.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Dec 13, 2007 7:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for pointing that out.
"Costed"?  I need to take a bow for that one.
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 7:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ryan Franklin
lboros,

How has Ryan Franklin come clean about his steroid use?  His comments in the Mitchell Report don't strike me as "coming clean".  They sound like playing dumb.

by age3in82 on Dec 13, 2007 6:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

he failed a drug test
in 2005, and definitely didn't "come clean" after that-- he used the "tainted supplements" defense, which seemed like lying at the time.  Of course now that we know that some supplements actually do contain steroid but don't show them on the label, so he could have been telling the truth...
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 13, 2007 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"Prominent Yanks" mean Ron Villone?
Wow, gotta love the WWL. I wake up to "Mitchell Report will include more prominent Yankees other than Clemens and Petitte".

Hmmm....

By the way, does Cody McKay get a refund since they didn't work?

by Big Head on Dec 13, 2007 7:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

no.....
Dave gave the remainder to ____!
Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 15, 2007 4:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NBA & NFL
I'll repete this again because I am finding this really unfair that MLB is being put on the hot seat by Congress/Media while the steroid/performance enhancing problems in the other professional sports are being basically ignored.

Am I the only one seeing it like this?

by KYCards on Dec 13, 2007 7:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

At least that what the NFL
wants the public to think.

I don't know maybe it's just my bias/love for baseball, but I think that these other sports are not as clean as they try to make them out to be.  Just seems like some folks in Congress/Media have it out for MLB and are giving the other big sports a free pass, at least right now.

Maybe they will have their day under the spotlight for their dirty secrets at some point ...who knows.

by KYCards on Dec 13, 2007 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No sport is 100% clean...
That's why they have the testing. Overall, NFL has the best. Well, it may be the NHL since you NEVER hear of any drug/steroid suspensions.

I wish the MLB Player's Union would just ok testing. It would clear up a lot of doubt.

by Big Head on Dec 13, 2007 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Deadspin/Leitch has the moral judgment of a hyena.
The decision to post something damaging and unverified to draw web traffic is like the paparazzi who chased Princess Diana's car until it crashed.  The irresponsiiblity is not reduced by his disclaimer, "We'll know soon enough, but, for now, for 'fun'"

Printing accusations without any more corroboration than "forwarded by about 25 different people" shows a reckless disregard of the truth of the accusations. Which in legal terms means, liability for defamation to anyone who can prove the accusation to be untrue. ("Actual malice" for defamation litigation does not mean the same thing as common-law malice or ill will)

Shame on them again.

by madridbend on Dec 13, 2007 9:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I should have thrown "The Onion" in
DS has no need for integrity. Will Leitch = Colbert

by Big Head on Dec 13, 2007 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And yet, there you are, reading the site
It's a web site.  No one cares.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand...
I don't understand why you rip Deadspin for posting that list.  Do you read the site at all?  Do you think they take sh-t seriously ever?  

And if you do read Deadspin, why are you now holding them to this high journalistic/moral standard? They have never pretended to be the New York Times, pal.

Just don't bother reading it if you don't know how to appreciate it.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 9:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Get off your high horse....
Deadspin is an entertainment sight.  It's not CNN.  

The beauty of that site is that they can say/do what they want without fear of hurting the feelings of some million dollar athletes.  It's not somewhere you go for "journalistic integrity".  It's somewhere you go to have a laugh....

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 9:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not true, not funny
For an entertainment site, it's ok if a statement is funny OR true.

But if it's not funny, it should be true.

If it's not true, it should be funny.

If it's not funny or true, it's stupid.

If it's not funny, not true, and hurts people, it's wrong.

Last year the same guy tried to hide behind journalistic protection of his "source," when he falsely accused a trainer of supplying PEDs.

Not a journalist, agreed. Not funny or true this time.

Not very responsible, either.

by madridbend on Dec 14, 2007 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait
What was that middle part?

by arch support on Dec 14, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"a deeply regrettable wrong"
In June, 2006, he "reported" that an affidavit given by Ross Grimsley named a trainer, Chris Mihlfeld, as a source of PEDs. Mihlfeld had trained Pujols, so the story made it seem that Pujols was tainted as well. Mihlfeld denied it, and Leitch initially announced that he had to "stand by his source."  It turned out the story was false, the source was wrong, and Leitch apologized and admitted his mistake in October 2006.

 http://deadspin.com/sports/baseball/a-deeply-regrettable-wrong-204519.php  

The October apology was brave and correct - but it was very late; and the point of not repeating uncorroborated accusations didn't seem to register.

P.S. Are you not entertained?

by madridbend on Dec 14, 2007 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wrong Grimsley
Wrong Grimsley - Jason not Ross

by madridbend on Dec 14, 2007 6:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So...Mac for the HOF?
his name isn't in the report as a user...unless I missed it in the 400 some odd pages.

If you don't vote in Mac then no Bond and then no Rocket...and if those guys aren't in the HOF then really what's the point? A place for Joe Morgan's teammates to gather?

by Harknights on Dec 13, 2007 9:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Get off you high horse...
Deadspin is an entertainment sight.  It's not CNN.  

The beauty of that site is that they can say/do what they want without fear of hurting the feelings of some million dollar athletes.  It's not somewhere you go for "journalistic integrity".  It's somewhere you go to have a laugh....

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 9:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the tone here has been
wretched today.
I will be boxers

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 9:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

True
The tone has been bad.  But, really, isn't it fitting on the day of the release of the almighty MitchRep?  

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh
Saying MitchRep was terrible. I wish I hadn't. I really do.

by udcardinals on Dec 13, 2007 10:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait...
are you challenging me to a signature off?
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 14, 2007 1:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But suddenly, a new contender has emerged...
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 14, 2007 2:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dammit!
a second too soon!
I will be commando

by Valatan on Dec 14, 2007 2:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A compromise!?!?!
Perhaps.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 14, 2007 2:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh my
hardcore ftw.
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 14, 2007 2:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When someone
adopts these in their signature, the internet will have completed its mission.
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 14, 2007 3:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Waist 20"-38", hips 40, thigh 22
that's actually quite impressive.  Nothing like a good drawstring to keep a man focused...
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 14, 2007 3:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not Complete
Not even close...the percentages say that this list has a very small percentage of PED users. In 2003, over 100 players tested positive. (Mitchell did not have access to these names) That was from one snapshot and would not have included HGH users. There are only 86 players in the Mitchell report spanning 10 years and including HGH users.

Think about it this way...no Sammy Sosa???? (and a few other suspicious players.)

Also, no young stars mentioned. Not surprising that many Yankees were mentioned. Two of the main sources cited are from New York and the investigator is on the Red Sox payroll. I noticed there was little accusation pointed at Red Sox players or Mets for that matter. (In spite of the fact that the clubhouse boy worked for the Mets.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Dec 13, 2007 9:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Pettite stiffed the 'roids guy
"Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone." This stuff is gold; Clemens couldn't take a shot in the stomach and had someone inject his ass and Pettitte is cheap.

by Big Head on Dec 13, 2007 10:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

more money than sense
I have a work colleague that says she hopes to have "more money than sense" in retirement.  Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have read of some prime examples of that today.

by cardsgirlinAR on Dec 13, 2007 11:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I was at work
And computerless for the release of the report.  I was checking news updates on my phone and when reading the list saw "Hal Morris Matt Franco" and thought I was reading Morris, Matt and my heart sank.  

I'm super stoked to get home and read the real report and realize my mistake.  

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 14, 2007 12:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1
I still have two MM posters in my room, and I would have been devastated if he was named.  Still one of my favorite Cardinals.
get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 14, 2007 12:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My favorite part of the whole thing
is that I can now say the greatest (clean) pitcher of my adolescence was Greg Maddux and the greatest (clean) player was Ken Griffey Jr.

Not two arrogant assholes.

Also, Maddux and Griffey should get %100 for their HoF vote, considering what they did in their era.

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 14, 2007 2:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

That is a great angle to this whole thing
It was amazing how quickly Griffey just disappeared into the shadows during the whole bonds explosion.
I will be commando

by Valatan on Dec 14, 2007 2:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you know
griffey's only going to be 38 next year, and has never played in the DH league...  and he has 593 home runs.  And he's averaged 30.7 HR/year over the last 3 years.

if Bonds doesn't play next year, and Griffey can hit 28+HR until he's 43- for 6 more years- (the age bonds WOULD be next season), A-Rod and Griffey could be challenging the "enhanced" record at the same time in 2014.  IMHO that's some pretty good planning on Selig's part.

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 14, 2007 2:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Check your facts again
Sorry, gotta challenge the ruling on the field. Griffey's first 11 years were in Seattle, in the DH league, where he hit 398 of those dingers.
That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Dec 14, 2007 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol good catch
I totally brainfarted on that- I meant to say that he's never BEEN a DH.  IE he could go to the DH league and rest his knees on the bench and last long enough to challenge the record.
Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 14, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

actually...
Griffey is quite arrogrant. He might be more arrogrant than Bonds actually. I can't stand Griffey at all.

by DKelly28 on Dec 14, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Albert Pujols = girlfriend you never trusted
Albert Pujols is quickly becoming that really pretty, really sweet girlfriend you had that you just became so paranoid that she was too pretty, too sweet that she must be up to something.  Maybe she's getting alittle action on the side, maybe she's after your sweet 1998 Ford Taurus, maybe she's just trying to score your second season tickets seat for the Memphis Chicks games.

But, you don't trust her, you accuse her of everything and anything you can.  You grow bitter towards her and finally, she leaves you.  It's not until after that bridge has been burned you realize she really was the really pretty, really sweet girlfriend and you blew it.

Way to go, buttmunch.

Not that any of that happened.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 14, 2007 2:27 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Never thought I'd see the words
"sweet 1998 Ford Taurus" in the same sentence.

I think of Albert as more of a 7-series BMW, actually.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 14, 2007 7:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i believe
this is the most lucid commentary i've seen in the past two days.

by dpmay on Dec 14, 2007 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Similar feeling
I was going to post a similar thought, except about MLB as a whole:

The way that the commissioner's office and the player's union have handled the whole steroid issue is obviously frustrating.  For me, it's more than that: how can we trust baseball to clean itself up after how the executives and union leaders have handled the issue to this point?

In Selig's press conference yesterday he was saying how this was "a call to action" and how he was going to do just that, act.  

What's one of the things he's going to act on?  No more twenty-four hour notice to teams before the drug testing is supposed to occur.

That's the problem right there!  MLB works out this supposedly random drug test that is going to make players account for their behavior.  But one of the requirements of "random" is that the testing be blind.  24 hour notice means that no one is "blind"!  It's the very opposite of blind.  It completely destroys the randomness of the testing!

This, to me, is just a symptom of a larger problem: the commissioner's office and players' union have not done all they could to solve this issue, even when they touted that they were passing a drug policy that would clean up the sport.

If we could not trust them to do things right the first time (not too mention all the time previously when they claim they had no idea), what reason do we have to trust them now?

I feel like they've gotten away with something here.  The only ones that can make them pay are we the fans.  And I love this sport so much that I don't think I can.

Like Hardcore, I equate this feeling to a dating experience: if a girl I was dating screwed with my trust the way that MLB has, I would just cut them off.  Don't talk to them anymore, don't see them.  Don't give them the chance to hurt you more.

The problem is that I love the sport of baseball so much, I don't think I can forfeit that just to teach Selig and Fehr a lesson.  I think most fans feel the same way.  I can't not buy tickets, I can't not watch the games.  Baseball's a big part of my life.  To turn my back on it to teach these irresponsible jerks a lesson is too big a sacrifice for me.  But I feel like nothing will change if we fans don't show MLB that we don't approve of their behavior.

So I'm torn.  I feel like MLB doesn't deserve my trust or my money any more.  But I can't give up baseball.  It means too much.

Now that I think about it, this is worse than a bad dating experience.  There are always other girls, but there's no other sport like baseball.

This turned into more of a rant than I wanted it to.  Hopefully, my point didn't get lost in there somewhere.

by arch support on Dec 14, 2007 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols' reaction to being falsely accused
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071213&content_id=2326063&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

Since he was unfairly targetted (and got the most media attention in St. Louis), it's good to read what it was like for him yesterday.

The Mitchell report really should have notified players beforehand so that rumors wouldn't have put so many on edge.  They created an environment for false rumors to spread unchecked by players and they should have known that.

by nycardfan on Dec 14, 2007 5:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i love pujols
what a cool, calm reaction to something he could've understandably been really pissed about.
Albert Pujols stole my 1998 Ford Taurus.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 14, 2007 9:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What part of being
"upset and disappointed" "over reckless reporting" doesn't sound pissed to you?  

Everyone knows how protective Pujols is of his family and his integrity.  He cited both of those as either having been senselessly aggravated or recklessly challenged.  When he says "my character and values have now been questioned," I doubt he's thinking cool.... no problem, man.

And his thanking fans who did not question his integrity gives a strong hint that he definitely cares about what circulates falsely about him around his so-called "fan base".

by nycardfan on Dec 14, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This also sounds "pissed" to me
from the P-D:  

"Dan Lozano (Pujols' agent) said his client was 'very upset and very disappointed' by the rumor.  "It's ridiculous that Albert has to deal with irresponsible reporting like happened this morning....  Even though it's untrue, Albert now still has to deal with friends, family and fans who may question his integrity and professionalism. That upsets him very much."

by nycardfan on Dec 14, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW
While I expect that Albert was quite pissed, remember that he didn't write the press release on the team web site- it came from his agent, who likely had a publicist draft it.
When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Dec 14, 2007 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Houston's new nickname
Since Clemens, Pettitte and now Tejada have called it home do we get to call it HGHtown.

by rajah424 on Dec 14, 2007 11:41 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lawsuit
Am I the only one who thinks either MLB or specific MLB teams should bring lawsuits against players where there is concrete evidence against them using performance-enhancing drugs?
These players put fraudulent play on the field and I think they should be liable for the money they were paid......
Now I am not a lawyer and this idea might be stupid but I think MLB should consider it.....

by Calhoun on Dec 14, 2007 2:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sure
and all the teams would have to do is show that that taking steriods makes you better than you really are...and not just healthier.

Have fun proving that.

by Harknights on Dec 14, 2007 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sno-Cones
He manned up. Took it for a knee injury in pre-ban 2003, calls it a stupid mistake.
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Dec 14, 2007 9:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

at the same time it outs neagle
wow
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 14, 2007 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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