miles to go

by lboros on Dec 11, 2007 9:56 AM EST in News Comment 132 comments

tomorrow's a big deadline vis-vis arbitration-eligible players: teams either have to offer those guys a contract or nontender them, which makes them free agents. the cards' arb-eligibles are rick ankiel (2d year of eligibility), aaron miles (2d year), yadi molina (2d year), and todd wellemeyer (1st) the prime nontender candidate on that list is aaron miles; he made a million bucks last year and will probably be due a bump to $1.2m or so via arbitration. miles doesn't show up on any lists of likely nontender candidates, but to me he's a no-brainer --- a subpar defender with a career ops+ of 73 and a shaky claim on a roster spot. when the cards signed izturis, i resisted the temptation to bash the signing because i figured it meant that miles --- a similar player with less ability and less upside --- would be shown the door at the nontender deadline. that was the silver lining i perceived in an otherwise unattractive maneuver; my theory will be put to the test tomorrow.

for such an insignificant player, miles has commanded a disproportionate share of attention in the cardinal blogsphere. he has become a symbol of two related complaints, the first being la russa's love for "heads-up" veterans who are long on character and intelligence but short on baseball-playing ability. that's a longstanding tendency that predates tony's arrival in st louis; when i lived in the east bay during the 1980s, back in bill james' ascendancy, la russa began giving steady work to mike gallego, who (sort of) could play all three infield positions but couldn't hit for average (career .239 mark) or power (.328 slugging), couldn't get on base, and couldn't run the bases. yet gallego stayed in the big leagues for 13 seasons --- thanks to la russa, who was his manager for 10 of those years (including 2 in st louis, 1996-97). gallego's career ops was comparable to miles' (.648 vs .680), and since he played in a lower-scoring era his career ops+ (81) was considerably better than miles' (73).

the other thing miles has come to symbolize is the team's backwardness vis-vis basic sabermetric principles. after 25 years of bill james and 5 years of moneyball, it has become common knowledge that a guy with a low on-base pct and low slugging pct is not a productive hitter, regardless of what his batting average says. but the cardinals' decisionmakers have seemed not be in on the secret, filling the roster with high-average, low-obp/slg hitters like miles and encarnacion and taguchi and bennett and, this year, izturis. every team has one or two of these guys at the end of their bench, but the cardinals have them throughout the starting lineup --- miles most of all. in his two years with the cards he has started 202 games and made nearly 1,000 plate appearances, a 25th-man masquerading as a quasi-regular. at that level of playing time, miles' flaws swamp his virtues (which include versatility and situational smarts); he's an asset if he only bats 175 times in a season but an albatross if he bats 300 or 400 times. these are the most rudimentary of sabermetric principles, the first day's lessons; aaron miles' continued presence on the st louis roster and his prominence in their lineup represent a kind of dunce cap.

he now sits 3d on the depth chart at ss, behind izturis and ryan. some people might argue he's #2 on that list, but ryan in half a season started nearly as many games at ss (28) as miles (40) last year. the cardinals clearly are prioritizing defense up the middle, and miles runs a definite 3d in that category as an ss. and he's an uneasy second on the depth chart at 2b, with both ryan and jarrett hoffpauir competing for that title. i think he's the #4 middle infielder on the team, behind kennedy izturis and ryan; there's probably only room on the roster for 1 middle-infield reserve. so even if he's re-signed miles would be far from assured of making the club out of spring training --- or at least, he'd be far from assured of making a non-la-russa-managed club.

the ironic thing is that miles was never in the cardinals' plans, not from the start. he was a throw-in in a minor trade (king for bigbie and miles), a player the cards didn't even ask for --- the rockies just gave him away because they needed a spot on the 40-man and st louis didn't yet have a replacement for grudzielanek. but a few days later they signed one (junior spivey), and they already had two other backup infielders (hector luna and deivi cruz) on the team; miles came to camp as the #5 or #6 middle infielder and seemed destined for triple A. but cruz and spivey had awful springs, luna's frequent defensive lapses landed him in tony's doghouse, and miles hung in there and claimed the last roster spot; he went 4 for 5 on opening day 2006 and we've been stuck w/ him ever since.

mozeliak made the correct call in jettisoning two other veteran subs, so taguchi and gary bennett, who were long on character but short on ability; i trust that he'll do the same re miles, creating an opportunity for a younger, better player and denying la russa the option of turning miles into the next mike gallego.

* * * * * * * *

one name to watch when the nontender rolls are announced is toronto's josh towers. the blue jays are rumored to be leaning toward retaining this guy, but i'm gonna throw him out there anyway because he's so ripe for non-tenderization. he sits 6th on toronto's rotation depth chart (and the jays are aggressively looking to add pitching), but as a 3d-year arb-eligible he's probably going to cost $4m to $5m --- a steep price for a #6 starter. what's to like about towers? for one thing, he's the type of pitcher dave n tony bring the best out of: a veteran (6 big-league seasons, soon to turn 31) who pitches to contact (career 4.8 k/9 rate) and gets groundballs (career gb/fb split of 43-37). but he's got some features that us sabr-statty types can love as well; despite an awful couple of years (combined record of 7-20, 6.50 in 2006-07), his peripherals remain pretty good --- k/bb of 3.45 last year, with fewer than 2 walks a game. his fip last season was 4.75 in a hitter's park in a dh league; at pitcher-friendly busch iii in a non-dh league, he might be capable of league-averageishness. i am not advocating strongly here, merely pointing out a possibility; if kris benson and josh fogg are gonna be on the radar screen, then towers (if, in fact, he's nontendered) might as well be too.

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Thank you

for presenting my case against re-signing scrappy doo Miles much more eloquently than I ever have been able to.

It's amazing to me how many Miles-backers that lurk in Cardinal nation, both on VeB and in my day-to-day baseball talk at work, at the sports bar, etc. I hear this all too often:

"But the guy hits .290, he can play 2B and short!"

"It's not his fault that he got over 400 AB's this year! Eckstein got injured and Kennedy sucked..."

The guys OBP is .30 higher than his average. He has ZERO power and he can't steal bases. Oh yeah, and he's a liability in the field, especially at SS.

Thanks for the memories, lil' guy.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 10:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Oh and he'll only cost ya

$1.2 mil. Oh, and by the way, Tony found a way to get him >400 AB's in 2006 as well. Please Mo, let him walk.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't blame it on Tony

see Kennedy, Miles

by enoscountry on Dec 11, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles=Eckstein Injury

by enoscountry on Dec 11, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kennedy wasn't here in 2006

and Miles was the starting 2B because Walt didn't bring in anyone other than Junior Spivey to occupy the spot. That plus he played 40 games at SS in '06 and 39 in '07. You cannot say that Tony doesn't deserve the blame for exposing Aaron's warts.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have tried to look at Miles in a positive light

a few times but the truth is there were many times last season I wanted to beat him sensless for shotty defense. Most likely he has some more of that in his system for 2008. I for one don't want to see it again.

"Sell the Farm Guy"

by Red Blazer on Dec 11, 2007 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles

Points aptly taken, but I just wish high-ability players had half the character as Aaron Miles, So Taguchi, David Eckstein, etc. I'm a little worried about the loss of players who play the game right - regardless as to how well the play it - and the looming feud between Tony and Rolen that profiles just exactly how this game is not supposed to be played. I guess watching Field of Dreams has made me wonder where all the "I just want to play ball" guys went.

by rockin the red on Dec 11, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Playing it the right way

I don't see how this applies to Rolen-LaRussa.

If you don't think Rolen plays the game "the right way" then, well....

Anyways a manager/player feud like this one only rears its ugly head when things aren't going right: injuries, slumps, losses, media pressure, DUI's, etc.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rolen

I would like to think that Rolen plays the game the right way - he certainly does so on the field - but when you let differences in the clubhouse create a rift between manager and player it makes you and the team look bad. Although Tony is a big part of the blame for this, I think we all would much rather Rolen shut up and play baseball than constantly have these things surface every year - with two different teams, no less.

by rockin the red on Dec 11, 2007 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just to point out

Rolen hasn't said anything.

He might be an ass but he's an ass in private.

Tony is the one saying what Rolen said.

And no I don't want to hear about sources say or friends of Rolen say. Rolen hasn't said anything wrong.

by Harknights on Dec 11, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not exactly...

In his column a few days ago, Bernie said Rolan started complaining about LaRussa and the organization to reporters "off the record and as background." That's how all this started, and it's been brewing for two years.

by Forsch31 on Dec 11, 2007 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

What I read was that he didn't like Tony...but said nothing about the Cardinals.

Which article was that?

by Harknights on Dec 12, 2007 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

miles to go

i agree, i admire miles perseverance in the baseball business overall. have no idea what kind of person he is, but i do admire his desire to plug away until he "made it". most with his skill level would have read the handwriting on the wall long ago. just unfortunate that he was the best we had in many instances over the past two years.

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2007 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can't do...

the saber(rattling)metrics stuff... and I know the vigilante majority will scoff at my opinion.
But I know a lousy St Louis Cardinal infielder when I SEE one. And his name is Adam Kennedy.

Do you guys plan on getting some hot tar and chicken feathers, to send Aaron on his way?

by the Tewk on Dec 11, 2007 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

kennedy upswing

Adam Kennedy's 2007 season was an outlier if there ever was one. He's a decent hitter and a good fielder. Here are his OPS+ numbers (which normalize OPS versus a "normal" MLB hitter; 100 is average) for the 9 seasons he's played:

71
75
81
110
98
100
96
86
50

Career norm is 88. I don't know how to do that versus all second basemen, but I imagine he'd be average or above slightly.

I'm not promising he'll rebound from that knee injury completely, but I think it's fair to expect a significant swing back to the norm for Kennedy. Not having a black hole at 2B will be worth a couple more wins by itself.

by Snacks LaPoint on Dec 12, 2007 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have

always liked Miles. I know all the reasons why I shouldn't, but I can't help myself. That being said it comes down to Ryan or Miles I take Ryan.

Bob those quotes are simular to what I have said. My take has always been. What do you expect of a guy who is being asked to more than he is capable of, and yeah I mentioned .290. I know it doesn't mean much. I guess for some unexplained reason I have a soft spot for the guy.

I do wonder what Tony will have to say about it, but he should be let go.

by nybirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't picking on you in particular

believe me you are not alone in your affinity for him. I'll bash him when talking baseball with my patients and 2/3 of the time I'll hear "yeah, but..."

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bob

I never felt picked on.

I can explain why I stick up for the guy. Maybe it is the harsh treatment he gets, and I just feel for him. Like rooting for an underdog.

by nybirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Aaron Miles

I pulled for him to make the 2006 team since I thought Spivey needed more rehab time and was happy with what he was—a solid AAAA depth 2B who could fill in for an injured starter when needed and a decent slap hitter on the bench who could keep an inning going every once in a while.

I was impressed with how he managed at short—not good by any stretch, but not hair-rendingly awful.

He's impressed by competently doing what he does, which is filling in when your starter goes down. But he's not better than Ryan or likely Hoffpauir. I wouldn't mind if he stayed in the organization at Memphis but it'd be very disappointing if Mo signs him to a guaranteed contract in the next 24 hours.

by liam on Dec 11, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't agree more on Miles

there's no reason to pay someone more than $1 M to do something WORSE than someone paid the minimum. More importantly, this decision can be seen as a harbinger for the Mozeliak era -- are we truly going to embrace the future? How deeply is LaRussa involved in these decisions? The decision on Taguchi was the right one -- and he was a better player than Miles. The correct one here is to allow Miles to ply his wares elsewhere.

by chuckb on Dec 11, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agree Completely

That's why the Cez signing make no sense. If you're going to rebuild let Jarret and Ryan play to see if they can hack it.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 11, 2007 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember when TLR brought

Gallego to STL, he actually was quoted as saying that Gallego was to 2B defense what Ozzie was to SS defense. I can't believe we had to watch that guy for 2 years.

This is a big test for the "new" front office. Handle this right, and a lot of slack will be given in other matters.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Gallego

I'm so glad you brought up Gallego. While TLR likely has earned HOF status, I'd love for him to publicly defend his stance on Gallego. My grandmother could see his uselessness. One can only suppose that Gallego had some sort of magical leadership ability in the clubhouse because it certainly was never on display between the lines

by Hinkster on Dec 11, 2007 10:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don't even remember

the guy being a Cardinal. So I looked it up, and he played in only 79 games total over his two years

by the Tewk on Dec 11, 2007 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Im not sure

That during the last two seasons Miles was taking at-bats away from anybody--thats the only saving grace.

Im probably more pro-LaRussa on this board than most. I also think he pays more attention to the "sabermetric" side of things than given credit for. That said, I never have agreed/understood his obession with the scrappy white guy thing. Maybe he sees himself some there. Heck, maybe we all do. But Miles is a bad baseball player. There is no other way to look at it.

Part of the problem is you have guys like Dan M. and Al Hrabosky clamoring about how good a year Miles had last year, etc. Well, the problem there is that the expectations were so low of him--that he exceeds them. Then we fool ourselves into the idea the guy is having a nice year. And people who put weight into what the announcers say (and its ok if they do that) then they think Miles/Eckstein, etc. are better than they actually are.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 11, 2007 10:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Towers

If in fact he is non-tendered, Towers is certainly interesting, if only for the idea of what a move from the AL east to the NL central could do for this guy.

Imagine what would happen to Looper if he was thrown into the AL east.

and we saw what Boston thought about Piniero's viablilty as a starter...

by Beware the Molinas on Dec 11, 2007 10:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

All I know about Towers

is that my buddy picked him up and dropped him in our fantasy league at least 15 times over the past 2 years.

He'd throw him in during a 2-start week and either look really smart or really ignorant with no in-between.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree here

Considering the disdain for Jeff Weaver in this community, how would this pickup be better than resigning Weaver off of the scrap heap? At least Weaver's shown the ability to get some people out. Towers only benefit is that he doesn't walk people. He might be a pitch-to-contact guy, but the past couple of years he's given up a lot of homers for a guy throwing limited innings. He has a career 4.96 ERA and a career WHIP of 1.38, which means that although his GB/FB numbers look ok, he tends to give up the big salami when guys are on base. It's not like teams are stringing together a lot of hits against him, they get one or two and then he gives up a dinger. I certainly don't think he's worth more than a minor league contract and definitely not $5 million for next season.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 11, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and a groundball ptc guy playing in a turf

stadium has got to have issues from that, independent of the whole AL east thing.

by Valatan on Dec 11, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wellemeyer

Wellemeyer is actually a 2nd year arb not a first year arb as indicated. I wish he'd bet more discussion as a possible starter. I'd just as well see him as most all of the higher priced back end starters who are being mentioned.

by cariocacardinal on Dec 11, 2007 10:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

+1

I think Welley will at least get a few starts while Mulder is getting ready. He will get a chance to show what he can do. I hope.

by nybirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was in the Bay Area about the time

that you were, Larry, and the guy I remember from some of those those Oakland teams was Lance Blankenship...remember him?...also a middle infielder with horrible offensive skills and little value defensively at several positions, but he was one of those "versatile" guys that TLR loved to keep around, and he was on those Series teams the A's had in 89-90.

by tbell61 on Dec 11, 2007 10:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

on the phone

I predict that TLR is on the phone right now telling Mo how much he needs Miles on his team. And, Mo will cave.

Just a hunch.

by raisin on Dec 11, 2007 10:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

No Mo Miles

I really think Miles will be non-tendered. Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but why on earth would have Mo signed Izturis so quickly? With Kennedy on tap and Hoffpauir in the wings, there is absolutely nowhere for Miles to go--except to another club.

by Hungry Jack on Dec 11, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Considering

the flame wars that Miles' very presence has caused on this forum during the course of the past two seasons, that was the most rational and well-stated argument that I have seen. Beanocook makes a good point as well - maybe Tony sees himself in the scrappy guys that he is so fond of. Maybe he unconsciously wants to give them chances that he felt he never got. That's a lot of speculation there because who realizes what is going on in their own subconscious, let alone someone else's. But if that is the case, TLR can rest easy knowing that he gave Miles plenty of chances to prove himself.

One question though, isn't this Yadi's first arb-eligible year?

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 11, 2007 10:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

just like Whitey

saw himself in lefties who couldn't hit LHPs. If Whitey could have hit lefties in his day we probably wouldn't have traded Van Slyke

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 11, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Quote of the day

"a 25th-man masquerading as a quasi-regular. at that level of playing time, miles' flaws swamp his virtues (which include versatility and situational smarts); he's an asset if he only bats 175 times in a season but an albatross if he bats 300 or 400 times."

Hopefuly that will remind some of us that it wasn't Miles' fault that the othe MI sucked and he was over exposed.

Don't get me wrong, I think non-tendering So Taguchi and aaron Miles are the right moves to make, but I get tired of the insults directed toward them Like it or not, with Eck hurt much of the year, Kennedy being generally awful and Ryan being young, Miles was at times our best option in the middle infield last year. Yes he was bad, but arguably still better than other options at time. And you could make the same basic argument for Taguchi.

Again, I agree these guys no longer fit, but there was a time when they did; let's not forget that when we see them go.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 11, 2007 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Miles and So filled holes they had to fill, and they did the absolute best they could--even if their best wasn't always quite good enough. That is something I appreciate in ballplayers, the intangible "character" issue mentioned above. In some weird avaerage joe kind of way, I'm glad to see that still means something. Everybody can't be a star, but that doesn't mean players like these can't contribute. I mean, the Birds did win a WS with those two prominently featured. It IS most certainly time for both to move along, but I like both of those guys and wish them well elsewhere.

by rockin redbird on Dec 11, 2007 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Definitely let him walk, but why must he be sent away with so many boos at his back? I never have quite understood the high level of vitriol directed at this guy. He is what he is, but he hardly seems deserving of scorn...

"That's baseball, and it's my game. Y'know, you take your worries to the game, and you leave 'em there. You yell like crazy for your guys." - Humphrey Bogart

by iron duke75 on Dec 11, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Scorn

I don't the think the anger directed at Miles is directed at Miles, per se. I think it has more to do with two factors. One: WJ made poor personnel decisions (well, ones that didn't work out) in bringing Spivey and Kennedy aboard and not realizing that if they failed to succeed than their backup becomes the new starter, and Two: LaRussa's habit of giving "scrappy" guys a lot of playing time in reserve roles due to perceived versatility that really isn't there.

I have nothing but respect for guys like Miles, Gallego, Miguel Cairo, etc., who are really only in the league b/c they have seemingly no ego and are willing to do just about anything to get on the field. I really wish that someone could switch the hearts of JD Drew and Aaron Miles. But sadly in baseball talent trumps effort...At the end of the day you could sign up 25 construction workers and pay them all minimum salary, and I guarantee you they will bust their asses...but they'll lose every game.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2007 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well

the harsh languaged used to discribe Miles might be the reason why I have a soft spot for the guy. A phrase like 'He f'en sucks!' is a mild example for things I have read here.

by nybirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+3

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 11, 2007 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Zubin, I agree with what you say...

but I read most of the criticism toward Miles and So as being directed toward the Cardinals' (and TLR in particular)tendency to keep guys like that around,and maybe not so much toward them personally...as someone else said, they are what they are, and my beef is with the Cardinals' brain trust for failing to get better players...that's how I look at it anyway.

by tbell61 on Dec 11, 2007 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

i dont dislike miles. i dislike that the cards had to play him so often.

by dmb60614 on Dec 11, 2007 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mr T says

No I don't hate Balboa, I pity the foo.

by Toddius396 on Dec 11, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

An aside on Rolen

O'Neill hit the nail on the head in his article today in the StL PD.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/danoneill/story/6142D1F8CCCC0FEA862573AE0018A 138?OpenDocument

I agree that Scotty has taken the high road - and I believe that he's a competitor who will play hard, even if he doesn't want to be there. There's 8 other guys on the field who are trying to win, and I think Scotty will do what he has to not to let them down - regardless of the fact that he could give a squirt of piss about his manager. We've never heard comments that Rolen is a bad teammate. He may not drink with Dunc and TJ, or start restaurants like AP and Jed, but he's from Indiana. Have to believe that the midwestern work ethic is part of him.

And if I'm wrong, well, wouldn't be the first time a player I liked failed to meet expectations.

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Dec 11, 2007 11:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ok, please straighten me out

From that article:

"Rolen didn't say he objects to wearing the Cardinals uniform or dislikes St. Louis. He simply made it clear he would prefer to play for another manager."

ONe of the things that made me mad was a post here on VEB a couple of week ago. Someone quoted either a blog post or a radio report saying that "Rolen said he wouldn't play in a Cardinal uniform again."

Which is true? This article or what Rolen supposedly said?

by sdrone on Dec 11, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would say

trust the paper over a blog...no one here is a journalist with journalistic integrity and ethics, are they?

Unless it's Bernie. Trust this over Bernie. I will respectfully decline from sharing my opinion regarding him.

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Dec 11, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jose

Makes you think Oquendo would have been the best move we could have made this offseason. Maybe it brings more life to the club.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 11, 2007 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I thought Dan O'Neill was on target in his piece when I read it this morning. Not talking to the manager is one thing (childish), but refusing to feud through the press is another thing entirely. There is alot of unnecessary Rolen-bashing going on around Cardinal Nation. I think Scotty will show up this spring and do his job to the best of his ability no matter how much he dislikes TLR.

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 11, 2007 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Where's the evidence for Tony's love?

I don't think Miles is great. He won us two valuable games in Houston in '06, but beyond that I could care less. He's a great guy (see Spring Break hostage story) but not needed for us.

What I don't get is why people are blaming Tony for Miles prominence or why people assume Tony loves Miles. Tony didn't give Miles any special treatment - Luna, Spivey, Kennedy, Eckstein's failures/injuries and our rotten farm system are why Miles got ABs. Likewise, it's Tony's ire for Ryan and not his love of Miles that gave Miles greater ABs last year.

For someone who prizes middle-infield defense, I doubt Tony is clamoring that we spend more $ on Miles next. I bet he still remembers that game with 3 Es against the Giants in July.

by enoscountry on Dec 11, 2007 11:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

miles and miles and miles before we rest?

i agree, must be some self projection involved in tlr's devotion to milesque players. i also agree that offering him arb is not the way to go. that said, minor league deal, ok. never hurts to have such "versatile" types in reserve. doubt he'll get much play elsewhere.

as for towers, seems he is one of the vast army of almost good pitchers looking for a 4-5 slot somewhere (aka pinieroesque). the question to me is, is he millions better than franklin, wellemeyer, or thompson? we need more exceptional players and that's where the money should go.

itr, seems that lincecum and cain are in play as well as rios. if matsui is in the mix, then so should the cards. maybe there is some reason to talk with the giants and jays.

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2007 11:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I spent over an hour

last night on the giants blog and could find no reference to any mention of a trade with the Cards. A lot of talk about proposed trades for Lincemun and Cain but none involving Cardinals. I don't believe anybody there had ever heard of a left fielder named Duncan. All the excitement was over a proposed trade with the Reds in which Jay Bruce, Joey Votto and Edwin Encarnation would go to the Giants for either Lincemum or Cain. Seems everybody wanted to go for it and seems more people prefered to keep Cain and send Lincesum. Could find no mention on the Red's site though.

by ridgesee on Dec 11, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Votto is definitely a stick

I saw him in Louisville; decent defense as I remember.

by the Tewk on Dec 11, 2007 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If someone is an asset when they

only get 175 at-bats, are they really an asset?

The only time Miles really has value is if you absolutely need a basehit. If a walk won't do it and you have to have runners going or something to that effect. But how unique of a skillset is that?

I also have to vehemently disagree with the idea that Miles is overexposed due to injuries. He received the same number of at-bats in 2006. Why he was ever playing SS when Brendan Ryan was on the bench (or at third) shows TLR's inability to correctly evaluate the better fielder.

I'm someone who has been vocal about Miles. It's not because I don't like him as an individual but he doesn't offer the team anything. He doesn't run well, he doesn't field well, he doesn't hit well. He's had the faulty facade of versatility forced on him but he's not really that either. He's the definition of replacement level and if the Cardinals had looked in the upper levels of the minors I bet they could have found either a) a slick fielding SS with no offense or b) someone who is a little choppy with the glove but hits for power. Miles remains a player with a very useful but limited and common skillset -- there are better ways to allocate roster spots.

by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2007 11:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

disagree

On the defense/SS/Ryan thing. For one, Tony played Brendan Ryan a LOT last year. Towards the end of the year Ryan had a bad foot--that's why he didnt play. It wasn't because Tony preferred Miles.

That being said--when Rolen was out he put Ryan at third because he was clearly the best defensive option for that position. Putting Miles at SS and Ryan at 3B was smarter than Ryan at SS and Miles at 3B.

Some fans think managers have this duty to keep putting guys in situations best for the individual--no, he has a duty to do what's best overall for the team. That's why Ryan would play 3B in those situations. It wasn't optimal, but better than the alternative.

I don't think TLR misevaluated the better infielder. In fact, by putting Ryan at 3B he understood him to be a better defensive player.

I find it funny that some rag on Miles but love Ryan--when they project to be basically the same guy in many ways. But when one is a "prospect" then "prospect guy" raves about him.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 11, 2007 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ryan

isn't really the same as Miles because he's a better runner and fielder. I'm still withholding judgment as to what his offense will finally look like but he's already better than Miles in two areas. It has nothing to do with him being a prospect. Running and fielding are going to translate from the minors with little dropoff so it's not a stretch for people to realize that Ryan had things to offer that Miles didn't.

When I watched Miles at SS, his problem seemed to be his complete lack of range. I didn't see him as having bad reactions or a terrible first step but he just couldn't cover that much ground. That kind of skillset in fielding would work better at 3B where there's more emphasis on reaction. That's really subjective analysis though and if you really think that the Ryan @ 3rd Miles @ SS arrangement was better, I don't know that I can offer conclusive proof it wasn't.

It's also worth noting that Miles is 30. His skills aren't going to change. Ryan is 25 with room on aging curves for him to develop a little more power as he enters his peak. While the salary difference between Miles and Ryan was minimal (600K) it's the principal that when you have two players who, as you put it, project to be the same guy, there's no reason not to realize the cost savings of 600K while at the same time injecting some upside into your roster.

by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2007 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

First of all

there were a number of games where Miles played SS and Ryan played 2B -- absolute lunacy.

2nd -- Miles will make more than 3 times what Ryan will this year.

3rd -- we don't know about Ryan's offense, but we do know he is a solid, if unspectacular, defensive player who can handle both 2B and SS. Miles is an awful defensive player. He's decent, at best, at 2B and beyond abysmal by any measurable standard at SS.

Finally -- presumably Ryan has some upside. He may get better, being a young player. He may not and is possibly a marginal major-league player. But playing him allows us to evaluate that. Miles is 30 and won't get any better.

There's this myth that Miles is a "versatile" player. Being bad at several different defensive positions doesn't make one versatile. It makes one bad -- that's Miles.

Some have stated that he is a patient hitter. False -- in fact his highest batting average came on the first pitch of the PA. He averages far fewer P/PA than the avg. major leaguer. He won't gain more power or more range. Perhaps Ryan won't either. But he's young and he might. There are myriad reasons to play Ryan over Miles but even if defense were the only one, it's enough.

by chuckb on Dec 11, 2007 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Players like Miles and Taguchi and Izturis

bother me more because they represent a complete lack of imagination than because of the actual runs they cost us on the field. I think both of us would agree that Miles is probably a replacement level middle infielder. There's no shame in that. If Miles is an okay utility infielder, I could live with that (even if I wouldn't like it) on the 2004-2005 Cardinal teams. The 2008 Cardinals aren't those teams and they need to look at improving the roster in little ways since they're struggling to improve it in big ways.

But so long as this organization continues to use known mediocrities that don't have room to improve and aren't a real tangible asset to the team, the Cardinals aren't going to see the post-season for quite some time. Holding par just isn't good enough for a sub-.500 team.

by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"using known mediocrities"

The complete lack of risk-taking is what bothers me the most... Last season we were out of the race by early September, yet we didn't really use that time to try to prepare ourselves to be better this year. Sure, Hoffpauir or Gonzales or whomever might not be as good as miles or cairo, but they also might be better! And if they are better, the team improves by bringing them up. If they aren't better, there's no real cost associated; they just send them back down or release them.

It was the bizarre lack of that kind of low-risk, high reward moves that I can't figure out. I'm not even "mad" about it, per se, I just don't understand it and can't empathize with the worldview of the people who accept "known mediocrity" as a positive trait in a ballplayer.

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 11, 2007 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

It seems like the team refused to do that for position players. Guys like Hoff rot while clearly poor players like Cairo and Miles get at bats when the results of the game no longer matter. I can at least partially understand the idea of playing more experienced guys when the games are really important...but doing so when the games don't mean jack makes no sense. At the very least you'd get an idea if Hoff or Ryan could be legitimate backups in the future.

But it does seem like the FO has an affinity for signing buy-low, formerly decent pitchers. Wells and Ponson come to mind in that regard.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the Cairo signing

really WAS bizarre... and as you pointed out...depressing.

by the Tewk on Dec 11, 2007 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Players like that

Players like the guys you mentioned assure you of a 70 win season, and are boring to watch. Guys like that lock up roster spots and payroll.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 11, 2007 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

at the same

Age the guys were basically the same player. Let me say that I want to see Ryan over Miles. Don't confuse that. But at age 25 Miles was arguably a better player--prospect than Brendan Ryan. The numbers prove it out. And Miles ran alot in the minors as well.

Im not championing for Aaron Miles. Im not. I just dont think Brendan Ryan is that great a player--and this idea that Tony didn't give him an opportunity is just incorrect.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 11, 2007 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Milest

Miles does have options left! not that TLR would send him down.

by cariocacardinal on Dec 11, 2007 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think

that with the situation the Cards are in now with Isturis being added and Hoffpaur deserving a good "look at," Miles should be non-tendered but it rattles me a little when I hear people refer to him as a bad ballplayer, which he is not. He is at least average at 2nd base, (could shift to) or fill in at short and third occasionally if needed and do a respectable job. One thing I think the stats don't show is his ability to give you a good at bat in tough situations. To me, he seemed to have a knack for getting a hit or working a walk in tough situations. Kind of a "poor mans" Craig Biggio. For the right ball club (a team with a set infield)and in contention for a pennant, looking for an extra infielder to play once or twice a week, get 180 bats a season, Miles would be the man. And anybody that can do that is definitely not a "bad ballplayer".

by ridgesee on Dec 11, 2007 11:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well said, ridgesee, and overdue

Aaron Mikes is not my favorite ballplayer and maybe the time has come for him to depart, but he has been and is a solid utility infielder--still a useful term in my view- and has value as such. He has no power and little speed, but he makes contact from both sides of the plate and does the little things that win ballgames. He's been overexposed-especially at shortstop--because he stays healthy and other Cardinals don't and because the Cardinals have had no viable alternatives. That's not his fault. I also remember Mike Gallego, and Mike Gallego, at least in his Cardinal days, was no Aaron Miles. The bottom line is that Miles deserves a lot more respect than he receives on this board; if he's a "bad ballplayer," he has a lot of company in the major leagues. I'm not convinced that Hofpauir will be even that good, although he certainly deserves a chance;at this point he's barely established himself in Triple A.

by MikeG on Dec 11, 2007 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles, not Mikes, of course

Must have been a Freudian slip!

by MikeG on Dec 11, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"....because the Cardinals have had no viable

alternatives."

That's kinda the point. Either the Cardinals haven't had alternatives (shame on the GM) or they have but they haven't played them (eg Hoffpauir, shame on TLR or whoever vetoed bringing him up).

It's been said a dozen times: nobody hates Miles because he sucks. We hate the fact that, in spite of Miles' suckitude, the Cards have done nothing to improve his roster spot....even though, due to the very nature of said suckitude, improvement would be very easy to cultivate.

QED

by arch support on Dec 11, 2007 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles, Hoffpauir OBP, and the minors.

Miles spent 10 years toiling in the minors, including 3 years in AAA. He AVERAGED .289/.338/.401. His best BB% in the minors/majors was 8%.

Hoffpauir has now played 4 years in the minors and he played 55 games in AAA in his 4th year. His career line in the minors is currently .285/.369/.408. He also walks at least 12% of the time.

BB% and OBP in the minors, as stats, project well to the majors. Hoffpauir is likely going to be a better player than Miles ever will be.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

One caveat

"BB% and OBP in the minors, as stats, project well to the majors."

That holds true most of the time. What was remarkable (and important) about Hoffpauir at AA last season was the significant increase in power. Players that walk a lot in the minors but don't show power usually struggle to establish the same walk rates in the majors. Major league pitchers are more willing to just throw their fastballs at them knowing that the damage is minimal if they do make contact. There aren't a lot of Reggie Willits-style players in the majors.

by azruavatar on Dec 11, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

Good example of looking at why some stats are useful for projections and others aren't.

by silent_bob on Dec 11, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ahh...

"The little things"

Just once, I'd like to see someone try and quantify these little things that win ballgames that noone can seem to point out. It makes me laugh every time I read something like this.

Forget the fact that the dude is terrible offensively and defensively...he can really get after it when it comes to refilling the water cooler and keeping the sunflower seeds stocked. Oh, I noticed him gently whiping Dunc's chin free of chewin' backy when he had one of those big triumphant bastards. The little things...

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 11, 2007 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bobby

These are the kinda remarks that make me wanta stick up for the guy. As hard as that is. I still think he deserves better than that.

by nybirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bad ball-player

I disagree. I think it's completely fair to say Miles is a bad ballplayer. To put it coldly, if below-average is bad and above average is good...and we can agree Miles is a below average Major Leaguer...then, yes, Miles is a bad player.

By "at least average at 2nd base" I presume you mean defensively....which may be true on a good day. Everywhere else, he is well below average. And offensively, he's sub-par anywhere you put him.

I'll agree that there are things that don't show in the stats. But the "ability to give you a good at bat in tough situations" is over-valued, in my opinion. Every major league player takes good at bats. Of course, there are the mistakes, or the give-away at bats that every player has from time to time. But the point is every player is out there trying to do their best every at-bat. This is often forgotten or over-looked because of psychological things like selective memory, rooting for the little guy, etc.

Just my opinion here.

by arch support on Dec 11, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"Poor man's Craig Biggio"

Biggio has a career OPS of almost .800, and an OPS+ of 111. He won multiple gold gloves and appeared in multiple all-star games, reached 3000 hits, and is a future Hall of Famer.

Miles has a career OPS that is over a hundred points lower, and an OPS+ of 73. He is an average fielder on his best day, and has as much of a chance of getting in the HOF as I do.

Very, very, very poor man's Craig Biggio.

by tdawg on Dec 11, 2007 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, like

BANGLADESHI poor man's Craig Biggio.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

now that's funny

by nybirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I have to disagree with just about everything you said there past the first sentence.

1-The man's best defensive skill is being solidly average at second base. That is hardly a ringing endorsement. Yes, he can "fill in" at SS or 3rd, but not because he can contribute there, but because Tony La Russa decided to put a 6 or a 5 next to his name (he only played 19 innings at third by the way). His SS defense was so bad that if you try to do an unqualified RZR list (on The Hardball Times) of NL shortstops, his RZR is so low that it doesn't even appear on the list!

2-As for the tough AB deal, well considering he had an OBP of .328 last year he probably didn't have too terribly many tough at bats. His P/PA were 3.4, which is pathetic at best. So this idea that he would give you tough at bats is pretty much untrue, unless by tough you mean "hard to strike out," which in my mind is not remotely the same thing as a tough at bat. And I'm not even going to bother getting in to the whole "clutch" argument b/c its overused and misunderstood in my mind.

3-Puting Biggio in the same sentence as Miles is shameful. Biggio is a future Hall of Famer whose lowest OBP seasons correspond with the best Miles has EVER done. But, if by poor man you mean broke-ass dude living on a park bench, then I guess Miles is a poor man's Biggio.

4-I understand your contention that an extra infielder to play occasionally is a key part of a good team, however when you consider that Miles is probably the worst or second worst position player on the Cardinals roster (a very mediocre cast of characters btw) I highly doubt that he's "the man" as you put it. I think a guy like Brendan Ryan, who is athletic enough to fill in at 2nd or SS and could run the bases well, would be a much better choice than a slow singles hitter whose greatest skill is the ability to stand at various infield positions and try hard.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

You nailed it, and I can't stop laughing.

by Ray Lankford on Dec 11, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Top 10

Top 10 reasons Mo might tender Miles:

Has yet to develop the flu/finger infection/extended rehab stint syndrome
No 'MLB ends probe on Miles' headlines
Scrappy 'lil guy
Career WHIP of 1.500 with ERA of 9.00 -- may convert him to a starter next year
Awesome mascot, Cards have never lost a post-season series that he has played in
Mr. October II: Post-season OPS of .962 (in 11 AB)
It's his birthday this week (turns 31 on Saturday) - it would be mean to non-tender him just before his birthday
#8 most similar batter by age is Clyde Klutzz
Chalked up 9 win shares last year -- that's only $111,111/WS!
Came within a whisker of tying a 65 year old NL record after recording 3rd error in one inning at SS, July 7, 2007; could break the record this year with more playing time.

by brdsnbt on Dec 11, 2007 11:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

brdsnbt

I like your comments, had to laugh. At least you didn't get around to calling him a bad ballplayer..just kind of portrayed him as been a little undesirable.. that's nice, I like that.

by ridgesee on Dec 11, 2007 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Clyde Klutzz?

Holy poo is that a serious name? I wonder how hard a GM would laugh if you showed up saying this:

"Well, Bob, I've done seen me a pretty good ballplayer. Name's Klutzz!" That would be a great show!

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fans in places like

St. Louis, Cleveland and Detroit would make a folk hero of a guy with that name.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 11, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kluttz

Indeed, he was a real player, played for both St. Louis teams, no less:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kluttcl01.shtml

by brdsnbt on Dec 12, 2007 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Towers

How many No 5 pitchers can one team carry?

by Red in Chicago on Dec 11, 2007 12:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Um...

Well I guess 25, given the size of the active roster.

by JMedwick on Dec 11, 2007 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Miles Hate

I think people don't really understand that the Miles hate isn't directed at Aaron Miles himself. It speaks more to the lousy roster construction by the front office. Consider that Miles was almost a replacement player. RP are not supposed to get paid $1 million. There are guys floating around out there in the IL and PCL who are more than capable of doing what Miles did and for peanuts. Then there are guys like Brandon Phillips, who somehow land up in Cincinnati and turns out a productive season. The Cardinals were so gung-ho on finding stopgaps and trash heap pickups that young and extremely cheap talent like Phillips was dealt to a division rival.

by ryanisforever on Dec 11, 2007 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

mi

in terms of floating around the pcl, was edgar gonzales really that bad a fielder?

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2007 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles and Cardinal middle Infield

Infield as of today

Ryan
Izturis
Kennedy
Miles

Infield as of tomorrow.....

Ryan
Izturis
Kennedy
Hoffpauir

I guess I am not too excited today or tomorrow about this craptasict middle infield.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 1:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

And no one is!

But the bottom one has added a guy with the ability to NOT make outs, something that Miles was exceedingly good at.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 11, 2007 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Article idea

I would love to research and write a diary on why Albert Pujols is best value in baseball, but I don't have the time.

With all of these ridiculous contracts flying around, Pujols could easily command much more dough than the Cards are giving him.

I would bet that we will have extend his contract at least two years before its up (assuming no career threatening injury) to insure that he can't even get a whiff of the FA market.

Anyone want to do a thought out comparison of the top paid players in the league?

Larry? Azruavatar? HoustonCardinal? Diary Rats (I know you are salvating at the challenge to be the first to post a new diary)?

If there is already an article like this out there, would someone link it to this thread.

Thanks.

by plaz on Dec 11, 2007 1:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

value

if you don't think albert is a bargain, or even rolen, look at vernon wells! trading rios and keeping wells a bad reality for toronto.

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2007 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Pujols and Rolen are easily worth their salaries. But I think Pujols is worth more than his current salary, whereas Rolen is definately not worth more.

by plaz on Dec 11, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

By value

do you mean "dollar value of his performance" or "most bang for the buck -- dollar value of performance relative to what he's paid"? If you mean the former -- maybe. If you mean the latter -- he's one of the best but there are probably some cost-controlled players earning half or less than half of Albert's salary who are "more valuable." Perhaps Miguel Cabrera -- he earned $7.4 M last year as opposed to Albert's $15M. Jake Peavy ($4.75M), Ryan Howard ($900,000), Chase Utley ($4.5M), Holliday ($600K), Fielder ($415K) all earned last year much more than they were paid and probably produced more, per dollar received, than Pujols.

In terms of $ value of production, Albert's probably #1 year in and year out -- A-Rod was probably higher last year but none of those I just mentioned have put up near the numbers as consistently as Pujols.

Your point, however, is a very good one -- that Pujols is worth MUCH more than he is paid. The stars are. They're the ones worth spending a lot of money on -- not spending 2/3 of that on someone who provides half or less of the production.

by chuckb on Dec 11, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

value

yes, and that is why we can't afford to not take the risk of keeping rasmus and have to be so careful with the dollars, i.e., because there is nobody behind rasmus. no howards, utleys, etc is going to make the next few years a real challenge for mo.

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2007 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

value

You definately sum up my thoughts pretty well. In terms of dollar value of production, Albert is King.

I would agree that there are numerous cost controlled options that teams get "more bang for their buck" than Pujols. But once the guys you listed get their payday, they will almost certainly get paid more than Pujols does.

When his contract does come up (and assuming no career threatening injury), does Pujols command an A-Rod like payday?

If so, I would hope that our farm is producing plenty of cost-controlled talent.

by plaz on Dec 12, 2007 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Towers superfluous, with Wellemeyer on roster

Josh Towers would be utterly superfluous so long as the Cardinals have Wellemeyer on the roster, at lower cost.

Here are the 2007 "fielding independent pitching" comparisons for Towers, Wellemeyer (StL only), Reyes, and Thompson:

HR/9IP
1.51 - 0.99 - 1.34 - 1.60
Rank: Wellemeyer, Reyes, Towers, Thompson

BB/9IP
1.85 - 4.00 - 3.61 - 2.78
Rank: Towers, Thompson, Reyes, Wellemeyer

K/9IP
6.39 - 7.21 - 6.20 - 3.69
Rank: Wellemeyer, Towers, Reyes (close 3rd), Thompson (distant fourth)

On the basis of fielding independent stats, then, Wellemeyer was at least as good as Towers in 2007. Towers gave up more HR per 9IP and struck out fewer per 9IP. Wellemeyer walked more per 9IP.

Here are the ERA+ comparions for 20087/career for Towers - Wellemeyer (StL only in 2007) - Reyes - Thompson:

Towers 83/91 - Rank 3
Wellemeyer 141/90 - Rank 1
Thompson 93/109 - Rank 2
Reyes 73/81 - Rank 4

On the basis of ERA+ Wellemeyer (just for the Cardinals) was far superior to Towers in 2007, and over the course of their careers, Wellemeyer and Towers are in a virtual tie in ERA+.

If you believe Wellemeyer could perform in 2008 the way he did in St. Louis this year, under Dave Duncan's coaching, Todd would be a much better value per dollar than Josh Towers.

If the Cardinals do sign another starting pitcher, though, Wellemeyer will probably have the role Josh Hancock did at the start of 2007: long relief and emergency starter.

by CardsWin on Dec 11, 2007 1:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

My first post

Been a lurker for a long time now from the Matthew Leach and MLBTR's blogs, but never bothered to make an account. I believe the community intimidated me a bit, which may have caused the delay. You guys can be a bit too cutthroat for my liking at times. I save my sniper shots for Mets fans, not members of my Cardinal Nation.

I'm a firm supporter of Miles, and I guess it all goes back to how much I hate the guy. During all of 2006, he was my scapegoat. Any time he misjudged the ball, grounded out to second, or kicked the ball into the opposing dugout, I'd scream at the guy as if he punted a baby to the opposing 20 yard line. I rode the guy so hard that it turned into some Benny Hill comedy when he messed up. "Oh, that zany Miles is up to his antics again!" Due to that, I took a liking to the guy. That, and he does have personality, regardless of what you guys say about his baseball talent.

My fondest Miles memory stems from last year's "I can't remember the score like a rape victim can't recall the details" Astros-Cards game at Busch. Biggest lopsided contest I've ever witnessed in person, and unfortunately, we were on the losing end. Me and my gal stayed, as I never leave a ball game until it's over (broke my foot at Old Busch in '01, stayed until the bitter end before being charted off to the hospital). I moved down a bit to left field's foul wall and rode Miles a bit. Then, he pitched! Me and the Ms moved as quickly as we could to the infield. Damn those Astros! They ruined Miles' ERA! It was perfect prior to that evening! Raaagghhh!!!

So, in conclusion, I love the guy because I used to hate him so much. I hope we keep him. Screw it. Don't care if it ruins the team this year. Don't care if we're wasting money on below average players who we don't need. I'm kinda like DeWitt, I just don't care anymore. We lost Eck and So already; if we let Miles go free, we'll be as plain and dull as the Reds. Or Joe Morgan's personality, at the very least.

Rasmus or bust.

by Zoop on Dec 11, 2007 2:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Towers

The thought of the Cards picking him up is intriguing. If the Cards do indeed pick him up, then I think he might do okay in the bullpen. I think his good role would be in the "mop-up" role that Hancock was in. That's what I would do if I was manager (in a perfect world, I guess).

I'm neutral as far as Miles is concerned. My ex-girlfriend always thought that him and Eckstein were brothers. She was really dumb when it came to baseball. Miles had the good at-bat every once in a while, but other than that he was below-average to mediocre, and I don't think he has a place on this team anymore. But if they do keep him, no bother to me. We're doomed for 2008 anyway.

Good post today, Larry, I enjoyed reading it as always. I think you really hit the nail on the head with this quote, "he has become a symbol of two related complaints, the first being la russa's love for "heads-up" veterans who are long on character and intelligence but short on baseball-playing ability." How true.

by BigdJC on Dec 11, 2007 2:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bravo, Larry, for urging the Cards to let Miles go

The Cardinals now have five middle infielders on their ML roster for the four slots they will carry into the 2008 season:

Izturis
Kennedy
Spezio
Ryan
Miles

Aaron Miles should be the one to go, not Ryan. Ryan is a better fielder with a stronger arm and more range, and Brendan has more power and speed, plus Ryan costs only one third what Aaron costs ($800,000 less).

If Izturis is a flop, Ryan provides a much better replacement at SS than Miles, who had never started regularly at SS before 2007, for good reason. Miles is not a shortstop.

In case anyone thinks Miles is valuable as an offensive contributor, it should be noted that Miles had an OPS in 2007 of .676 (.697 is the highest OPS for Miles in any one year). Out of 109 players in the NL with at least 400 AB in 2007, Miles ranked #101 in OPS. Brendan Ryan can match that, at least, and probably do better. Ryan's OPS this year was.753, albeit in only 180 AB. And his OPS was .863 vs. LHP, which indicates he would be an excellent platton with Izturis. Miles can't touch that.

Ryan should stay. Miles should go.

by CardsWin on Dec 11, 2007 3:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

spiezio

is not a middle infielder.

by willievinceterry on Dec 12, 2007 3:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Miles..

If he's not non-tendered then it's pretty clear nothing has changed. Same ol stagnant lineup. Same veteran filled team without the payroll to support a good veteran filled team. Same backward thinking roster contruction. Same 80ish win team.

He has to be the one to go, it makes too much sense. He's a lesser player that will cost you more money. Ryan is superior in every facet of the game. It's a no brainer, and if not done...well, you get the picture.

Larry, are we going to revisit the Izturis signing when/if Miles is tendered a contract?

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 11, 2007 6:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

What

So if Hoffpauir is added then the Cardinals are no longer a 80ish win team? Are they suddenly younger and better?

I think it is time for Miles to leave but I would not make it sound like droping him is some sort of major exciting move. It is hardly a blip, and really is not making STL better at all, OK maybe STL will be .5 win better for people who like win stats.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Based of of BP's Warp1, we would have been about 4.5 wins better last year if Ryan had gotten all of Miles playing time. I was shocked when I crunched the numbers, and Ryan probably won't be as good over a full season as he was in the short time he was up in '07, but we would have gone from 78 wins to 82-83 wins just be replacing our MI bench player- and I didn't even consider replacing Cairo or branyan's playing time.

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 11, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wish

I wish I could be excited about the Cardinals middle infield next season. It is just so uninspiring it is kind of sad.

I think I would take this group over any of the Cardinals MI options for next year.

Brandon Phillips
Freddy Sanchez
Mark Derosa
JJ Hardy
Rickie Weeks

Probably would rather have this group.

Eric Patterson (better minor league than Hoff)
Jeff Keppinger

Heck there a probably 7 NL Central MI guys I would rather have than any of the STL options at this point.

Just sad

by ICbirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The real pisser about that

We could have easily pulled a deal for Phillips, Sanchez or Derosa. How great does Derosa's deal look right now? He gets less than 5 mil a year, plays good defense, can play anywhere, has some pop and gets on base. What can you do though?

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 11, 2007 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And we could have kept Belliard, too.

He had himself a nice season for the Nationals. His salary next year is less than what they will pay Kennedy next year. And if Mr. Mozeliak has to dump some players, I said players, not contracts (they're not taking those guys), Mr. Bowden and the Nationals will eagerly take them off of his hands. He's putting together an interesting, potentially much better team by picking up players seen as "problems" by other teams. They seem to have a plan in place to work with these "problem" children. I'm actually looking forward to see how this unfolds. If they finish with a winning record this year, I'm nominating Manny Acta for manager of the year.

by jillsinmo on Dec 11, 2007 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

There is no other subject

that will cause more comments on this blog than a mere mention of AAron Miles. Wonder why so may dislike the little fellow. I always have to defend him, cause my wife thinks he's cute. I do hope when he is non-tendered tomorrow (or whenever) the AAron Miles debate can be put to rest. Mention of his name always brings forth a bunch "smart allix"...thats a southern term, folks.

by ridgesee on Dec 11, 2007 7:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I can think of another topic

"It's not fair that La Russa and Duncan hate Anthony Reyes. If they'd just leave him in the rotation he'd be our team's #1 starter."

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 11, 2007 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yup

beat me to It A rey is the saint child and LA Dunc are the devil..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 11, 2007 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care who he plays for

I'm buying a:

FUK-U-DO-ME

jersey and wearig it proudly.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 11, 2007 9:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure

mlb will print it with the dashes, as you've done. They'd sell a lot more that way though, so Bud just might!

by chuckb on Dec 11, 2007 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They won't have to

those of us with a 13 year old's mind will get it without the dashes!

Could a team possibly sell $14 M worth of a player's jersey in one season?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 11, 2007 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Gotta love it.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 11, 2007 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can only pray that his uniform number

will be 69!

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 12, 2007 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Per MLB trade rumors....

Fukudome has signed with the Cubs.....

by jillsinmo on Dec 11, 2007 10:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I heard that.

They got their man. Who knows what that will mean? it will be interesting to see how good he is.

I saw a story on WGN stating the Cubs had signed him.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 11, 2007 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well

fuk_ _ _ me!

by chuckb on Dec 11, 2007 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

nl central

espn reports the same, so likely the case. things likely got a little tougher in the nl central. while we worry about how much of rolen's and edmund's salaries we should pay for them to play elsewhere, cubs an d brewers added $10M+ in salary. the frustration most feel seeing miles name in the lineup, watching grud walk, etc., will transfer to mo pretty quickly, especially if he keeps miles.

by sportsman on Dec 11, 2007 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

DeWitt & the Cards brass

don't care that the Cubs & Brewers are better teams now. Since the Cards won it all in 06 they got their title, met their goal and are now content to just stay "competitive" while raising ticket prices and watching the $$ flow in. There is no "win now" mindset at 700 Clark Street and there probably won't be for some time.

I think our "moves" thus far this winter paints this picture pretty clear for us.

by KYCards on Dec 11, 2007 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

There is no "win now" mindset

in St. Louis -- nor should there be. Let's hope they don't abandon their player development mindset in some hopeless attempt to keep up w/ the Joneses today, thus sacrificing gains the Cards' organization has made in the last few years.

by chuckb on Dec 11, 2007 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Any idea what the Cubs 2008 payroll is?

at least compaired to the Cardinals? The Cubs have to be in the top 2 in the NL now I would think.

by KYCards on Dec 11, 2007 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i think they're up to about 110 to 115 mil.

by ortic jones on Dec 12, 2007 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Grim outlook

the Cez signing unfortunately proves your point I think

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 11, 2007 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that's true

Mo just has very little to work with right now. If it was all about watching the money roll in, we'd have let the expensive FA's like Piniero and Springer walk and not wasted the $2.85M on Izturis.

I think they are just in the bad situation where their expensive, unmovable vets or cheap, high-performance young players like Duncan are locking up the few positions where improvement is possible via FA, and WJ did such a terrible job with the farm (and then with letting all of our pitchers walk after '06!) that we're stuck. We need pitching and middle infielders, and the teams with pitching and middle infielders aren't willing to let them go for the price we can pay. Sucks to be us.

One option still available would be to outbid the rox to sign Tadahito Iguchi to a $$$ 2-3Y contract to play 2B, move either Kennedy or Iz2 to the "Aaron Miles memorial" role, and either release the other or send Ryan to Memphis. Iguchi offers above-average defense and a ~.750 OPS bat...

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2007 12:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

crap, nevermind

looks like Iguchi signed a 1Y deal with the padres today. WTF was he thinking?

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 12, 2007 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the point

Why bother with Piniero and Springer and Izzy and Izturis if you are going to stop there and put together a 75 win team? Let Narveson, Worrell, Ryan, and Falkenborg do those jobs and win 70 games...who gives a crap if you are putting together a 5th or 6th place team? If you aren't sincere in trying to compete, why blow millions on those guys? Are they really fooling anybody? Do you guys feel like this team can compete? Do you think Pujols is looking at this team and saying "yeah, we are going to win 95 games."? There should be more deals to come, otherwise, what they have done so far is just throwing away money.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Dec 12, 2007 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs