Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: World Soccer Digest for Soccer Fans!

not to bury cesar, not to praise him

i'll weigh in on izturis in a second. first, a proper sendoff for eckstein.

while i'm glad they didn't overpay to keep him on board for another few years, i'm even more grateful that eckstein was a cardinal for 3 seasons. what an incredible signing. on a $10.5m investment, he returned production worth somewhere between $20m and $30m on the open market. he may only have been the 8th- or 9th-best player on the team in an absolute sense, but dollar for dollar he was nearly as valuable as pujols and carpenter. and on that basis (ie, dollar for dollar), he was vastly more valuable than the player he replaced, edgar renteria. his 3 years weren't as productive as the 3 years edgar posted for st louis from 2002-2004, but he was nearly as good as edgar from 2005-2007:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG WSAB WARP1 WPA
eckstein 2005-07 1564 216 465   67   8 13 115 .297 .357 .375   17 12.5 0.01
renteria 2005-07 1715 287 511 106   7 34 197 .298 .360 .427   16 12.3 4.03
renteria 2002-04 1717 257 528 120   3 34 255 .308 .362 .440   n/a 15.6 4.43

almost the same player for 1/3 the price; that's value. it's too bad the cardinals didn't do a better job of cashing in the $15m eckstein dividend; instead of taking a chance on a potential difference maker like aj burnett or rafael furcal, they blew that chunk of change on safe mediocrities like looper and encarnacion. given eckstein's current age, shaky health, and deteriorating fielding, he wasn't a solution moving forward; but he was a great solution in the 3 years he was here. st louis got the best of his career; thanks for ev'ything, ya little squirt. i hope eckstein is able to find a situation that works for him --- although, come to think of it, one situation that might work for him is in wrigley field, where there's a hole at second base. . . . . .

now, to izturis. he's not a good player; we all agree on that. he's probably not any better than brendan ryan; most of us agree on that too. is there any reason, then, not to hyperventilate and rend our clothes and burn mozeliak in effigy? well, i'm not doing any of those things. i don't like the acquisition, but i also don't hate it; to me, it's the least of the possible evils. i didn't see any good options out there on either the trade or free-agent markets; there were some players available who might have been slightly less terrible than izturis, but they would have required a multiyear commitment and possibly the expenditure of prospects. none of them would have made the cardinals into contenders; they merely would have prolonged the era of mediocrity and reduced the team's ability to improve in the long run --- ie, they would have set the organization back. a one-year deal to izturis won't do that; it won't keep the cardinals from upgrading in the future. that's the chief virtue of this signing.

it's also the reason i've been advocating that brendan ryan get the job --- he'd hold the spot warm for cheap until a truly good option came along. ryan and izturis are pretty much the same player --- both in their late 20s, competent fielders, and capable of posting a .650ish ops, maybe .700 in a good year. so izturis is no worse than the option i have been pimping for several months --- a few million bucks more expensive, but there's no opportunity cost (ie, no good opportunity foreclosed because of the $3m expended on izturis). and even if the cardinals had followed my advice and given ryan the job, they still would have needed a plan B. i'd have preferred somebody like ben zobrist, ie a player with some actual upside; with a different field manager, maybe that would've been possible. . . . . but that's a lament for a different day. with izturis and ryan, the cards now have two versions of the same player as plans A and B; i'm assuming that aaron miles is out of the picture, and that ryan / kennedy / izturis will divide the MI at-bats in 2008. if miles stays on the roster and ryan goes back to triple A, then i'll hate the signing.

but let's assume that miles is gone. in 2007 the cardinals had two 30-or-over shortstops (miles and eckstein) who couldn't field the position; now they've got two 20-something guys who are at least adequate with the glove. none of the 4 players hits much. the team probably has lost a little bit of offense compared to last year, but they've made it up in run prevention; on balance they've held their ground at the position while getting younger and cheaper and keeping their options open moving forward. so it's a sound decision. no, it won't get the cardinals back to the glory days of 2004-05, nor even to the 95-win level of 2000-2002 --- but if that's your expectation you're in for a lot more disappointment. those days are over. the cards will get back there, but it's not going to happen in one off-season. to put this more bluntly: this is a terrible signing for a championship-level team, but a typical signing for a mediocre team. the cards are mediocre --- and would be whether izturis, ryan, jack wilson, david eckstein, or ben zobrist were playing shortstop.

i haven't had time to sift through the flurry of trade rumors involving scott rolen and the milwaukee brewers, so no comment for now. here's a short Q+A with coulda-been stl gm chris antonetti; here's an article on clutch hitting which documents albert pujols' greatness in big situations.

p.s.: godspeed, john rodriguez . . . .

0 recs  |  Comment 158 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Hmmm
I don't know why you would assume Aaron Miles is gone.  

TLR is still the manager right?

I have to disagree with you here, while they MAY be similar players in terms of production...there IS an oppurtunity cost.

Ryan will be in AAA having to share ABs with Martinez and Hoffpauir, instead of being the backup MI for the big club as he should be.

The right move is to non-tender Miles, but it's pretty obvious with TLR in the fold that's not gonna happen.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 9:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

that's the spirit bobby
always assume the worst. you'll go far with that attitude . . .

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 9:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Assuming
 I wouldn't get bent out of shape just yet, but it seems like a defensible assumption that Miles will be back.

I don't see much benefit to having two similar bad players. It's not like a golf scramble where you get to take the best of the two after seeing what they've done in 2008.

by Rob H on Dec 1, 2007 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed, there's no benefit to two bad players
unless the only realistic alternative is a bad player who's guaranteed 2 years and $15m.

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The tone is different...
but to me that's an even more negative thought than what bobby said. If the Cardinals decided their only alternatives were David Eckstein, Jack Wilson and Cesar Izturis, then they're wearing blinders.

Apparently something happened after (or with) the Mulder trade that has made this organization completely unwilling to part with any player of value even when they have a glaring hole that needs to be filled. It's not a pleasant thought that the Tampa Bay Rays are more proactive about solving their obvious problems than the Cardinals are. The Cardinals have become so risk-averse that they're now inert.

by Rob H on Dec 1, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the options
>>Apparently something happened after (or with) the Mulder trade that has made this organization completely unwilling to part with any player of value even when they have a glaring hole that needs to be filled.<<

If TLR demanded a vet for SS, the options may have been Eckstein, Wilson and Izturis given the team budget situation.  TLR very may well have lobbied against a trade of prospects to bring in a better option for the club at SS.  This is why I was against bringing back TLR given the stage at which this club finds itself.  Even stranger, personality conflicts between TLR and one of his big three is causing the team to jettison a key vet.  All speculation on my part.  Mozeliak might be an unimaginative GM and therein lies the problem but we really can't tell with the TLR effect in play.  LaRussa / Duncan are stubborn men not given to change ... unless out of sheer desperation when all other options have been exhausted.

by jjray on Dec 1, 2007 11:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What other options were there?
Just curious...given what was on the free agent market and what trade assets the Cardinals have (not to mention what teams are willing to part with their shortstop at what price), what other options did the Cardinals have?

by Forsch31 on Dec 1, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rob, what alternatives did you see?
who do you think they should have brought in this year, and how should the cards have acquired that player? i'd love it if they brought in a cheap young player like lillibridge or hu, but i don't see the cards as having the trade leverage to land such a player. what opportunities am i overlooking?

i agree with your premise that the cards lack creativity and are too risk-averse. that has to change. but the truly risk-averse move would have been to re-sign eckstein, and they avoid that; i think that's a positive sign. moreover, shortstop isn't the position where the cards have the greatest need. they've expended two #1 picks in the last 3 drafts on shortstops; no need to stake further assets on that position. if they're going to take risks, i'd rather see them spend their limited trade chips on a player with the potential to develop into a front-rotation starter or a middle-of-order batter.

i think people are attributing far more significance to this signing than it merits. to me it's an insignificant move. we all need to save some outrage and despair for the winter meetings.

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It looks to me like Moz is in a
terrible position right now ... in a spot where there are few real opportunities for bold moves, and in which even bold moves may not make the team much better. A spot in which patience is probably the greatest virtue.  Unfortunately, patience is boring as far as fans and the media are concerned.  And since he's an unknown as a GM, everyone gets to take potshots at him.  I'd love to have his salary and his pressbox seats, but damn, I wouldn't have his job right now for the world.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 1, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

GM Job
From the glitz and glamour side of managing the 40-man roster, there is very little for Mo to do.  Fill a couple voids w/ short term stop-gaps.  Try to cut salary by doing something w/ Rolen...maybe, but highly unlikely, Jed.  Try to get as many draft picks as possible.  I'm sure most of the participants on this site could do those things...  It is the stuff beyond the signing/trading that he is getting paid for.

by rrvwmr on Dec 1, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's just a damn shame...
that the only hole we had in our everyday lineup was filled with a "insignificant move".

As I've said earlier though, I'm not completely against this because it plays right in tune with what I think should be done...play out '08 and hope for the best while training your focus on '09.

My comment was directed to the part of your post where you assumed Miles would be gone.  That's quite an assumption...you must admit.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if they offer miles a contract
i'll be pissed then. until that happens, i'm giving mozeliak the benefit of the doubt.

as far the initial comment, ie what a shame it's an insignificant move ---- unless i'm mistaken, you (like me) have been an advocate of just giving the job to ryan. do you think izturis is substantially worse than ryan? if so, i'd like to hear the case; and if he's no worse than ryan, then why is this such a terrible move?

i haven't heard anybody, either at this board or elsewhere, propose a realistic scenario under which the cards could meaningfully upgrade at the shortstop position this off-season. maybe they could have pursued jack wilson; would that qualify as a meaningful upgrade? maybe they could have acquired edgar renteria or orlando cabrera --- would that have been realistic, knowing what the acquiring teams had to give up for those players?

basically, we're all just pissed off because the team has painted itself into a corner through neglect of the farm system. they have no options and no flexibility, and there's nothing to be done about it except ride it out until the returns start to come in on the kids at double A and below. until then, most of their transactions are going to seem shitty.

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I'll bite.
"as far the initial comment, ie what a shame it's an insignificant move ---- unless i'm mistaken, you (like me) have been an advocate of just giving the job to ryan. do you think izturis is substantially worse than ryan? if so, i'd like to hear the case; and if he's no worse than ryan, then why is this such a terrible move?"

Alright.  Let's just assume for a minute that they are virtually the same player (although the more I look at it, I think Ryan is better right now).  What makes this a bad move is that you've basically just stolen a year of development from a young player who is under control for five years in exchange for one year of a veteran who isn't any better in the first place.  No instead of seeing if you have a legitimate SS option in Ryan he's basically stuck in limbo.  So next year, when we are in the same situation at SS, we still don't know what we have Ryan and we are sitting again with no SS.

"basically, we're all just pissed off because the team has painted itself into a corner through neglect of the farm system. they have no options and no flexibility, and there's nothing to be done about it except ride it out until the returns start to come in on the kids at double A and below. until then, most of their transactions are going to seem shitty."

Complete agreement here.  The only option the Cardinals have is to wait on some return from their prospects and wait out some of these dead weight contracts of which we have so many.

I've accepted that we are any for a rough time here in the near future.  It would just be nice to see an actual move made that you could say had an eye on that future.  I'd like to see what there plan is, and right now it's hard to say if they even have one.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bobby, i'll agree w/ you if they bring back miles
but i'm pretty sure they're gona dump him --- and if i'm right then ryan loses nothing. he'll get 300 to 400 ab between shortstop and second, and thus won't lose any development time at all. if he has a good year, he'll be an option as the starting ss for 2009. if he doesn't have a good year --- well, then the team will have found out what it needs to know.

so far mozeliak has cut ties with 3 tony / dave favorites --- bennett, taguchi, and eckstein. all are over-30 players with no growth trajectory. miles is 31, and i think he'll be the next one shown the door. if he is, then ryan will still be a 1/2- to 2/3-time player and will have every chance to earn the job for 2009. maybe that's a better way to go --- or just as good a way --- than just throwing him out there with no backup plan.

if they dump miles, will you be any less upset over the izturis signing?

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In fairness
Bennett was no longer a LaRussa fave.  They had a falling out and Bennett accused him of benching him to keep him from earning a bonus in his contract.

Eckstein was probably viewed as disrespectful for asking for that absurd amount of money.

and there is still hope for Taguchi!

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bennett was a duncan fave
never a tony fave.

can't anybody give mozeliak credit for making some decisions we all agreed were correct ones? he has passed a number of important litmus tests --- it was presumed by many that taguchi and eckstein would be brought back to please tony, and mozeliak let them go. correct decisions. maybe i'm the only one who finds those decisions encouraging.

mozeliak still hasn't wowed us by reeling in an exciting player, but a) he only shed the "interim" tag 5 weeks ago, b) he doesn't have any trade leverage, and c) the free-agent market stinks. yet already there are people judging him a failure. forgive me, but that's ridiculous.

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Furthermore
We worried CA wouldn't take this job because he was basically painted into a corner this year between payroll obligations and slim market oppurtunities.

Yet, we expect our 2nd choice inexperienced 1st time GM to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

I don't see how this signing, or the group of signings + non-signings is any negative indication of MO at all.

 

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even further
didn't lb warn us about walt's rocky start in st. louis?  why should mo be any different?  mo may have been handed a worse team, too. (at least 92,93 were winning teams and had geranimo pena and the secret weapon, mo gets miles and adam kennedy)

jimmy says he's as healthy as ever.  doctor's say rolen should be back (hopefully not the club dr's).  mulder is supposed to be ok.  mo says he believes that.  then he shouldn't be making those "mistakes" he talked about.  if (huge if) those happen, look at the club and think about an 05 jimmy, 06 rolen and 05 mulder.  then this team would be the favorite in the nl central.  

i know i'm crazy, but i don't really see what else mo can do.  selling low doesn't get much talent in return and gives up now.  not a great plan for the future and bad for winning now....i say don't do it then.  keep them, and hope they're healed.

i'll be posting the recipe for this kool-aid later.  it's delicious.

by birdsonthebat on Dec 1, 2007 8:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree
that these were the correct decisions. Mozeliak's reign could have begun more auspiciously but he also could have re-signed Eckstein to a 3 year deal. It's far too soon to pass judgement but he hasn't yet made a horrible move. The Izturis move is, at best, OK -- but he didn't trade for Wilson or sign Eck to a long term deal and, for all the Izturis signing's warts, it's not nearly as bad as those would've been.

by chuckb on Dec 1, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Decisions were whose?
He didn't really have to make a decision on Eckstein, Eckstein made it for himself.

Eck asked everyone for a 4 year deal, Mo offered him a 2 year deal. Eckstein declined.

Does Mo get credit for not going to 3 years?  I guess.  Whose to say that they won't wait Eckstein out and try to get him for 2 again in January?

And Taguchi isn't out of the fold just yet.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eckstein
What I don't understand -- at all -- is if they were willing to make Eckstein a 2-yr. deal then why didn't they just offer him arbitration?  That seems like a win-win:  either you get him back on a one-year deal, or you get a first-round sandwich pick for him.  From what's been reported in the press, they didn't do it because they were afraid of losing out on other options.  So, basically, by signing Izturis now, we lose the chance to get that pick.  That seems like a big opportunity cost to me.  In fact, of all the possible outcomes, this seems like the worst.  Of course they could still get that pick if they offer Eckstein arbitration, but it seems like they won't do that.  

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes...
If they dump Miles, then the move really doesn't bother me a bit.
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CA....
Youre ready to dump on Moz after 5 weeks and still praising Antonetti on a diary a day or two ago.

The only question missing from the CA interview lBoros hi-lited was "Chris, how does it feel to have used the Cardinals offer to get what you wanted from the Indians?"

He used us!...no foul no harm! Hes an Indian guy, good riddance. Gone! He'll still be gone tomorrow!

CA is a smart guy, he used us and thats all he needed or wanted, but thew fact you'd rather dump on a guy that did everything he could for the team (rather than Chris Antonetti) is so not right.

PS: You asked for examples of your lack of rational the other day on the Brewers trade diary. Heres just ONE.

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 3, 2007 8:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Before Izturis, a lot of people here talked
about how it would be great to trade one of our prospects for someone else's SS prospect.  Now that Izturis and Kennedy, with all their veteran, Tony-pleasing goodness, can be written into the everyday lineup, Moz can make that trade for someone else's promising middle infield prospect, and make TLR compromise by plugging the young guy into a backup role, a la Ryan.  I don't think Izturis is an obstacle to that, he's COVER for that.

As for playing time, neither of our starting MI's is going to be so spectacular that TLR keeps them on the field for 150 games each.  And we all know how he loves putting infielders in the OF. I think there would be enough playing time for a kid to show us what he can do.  I'm hoping against hope that Moz does something like that.  Resigning Miles would leave a very very bad taste in my mouth.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 1, 2007 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good analysis
This is essentially the crux of the issue.  Bobby, normally you're overwhelmingly negative -- beyond reason -- but here you back it up with logic. So, the real question is whether the Cardinals really have a plan for long-term success, or are they going to continue to get by with their (failed) strategy of using one-year stop-gaps from the shallow end of the free-agent pool?  

As I mentioned before, the Izturis signing itself is a "meh" move. So I agree with Larry's take on this, up to a point.  We will have to wait to see how this fits with the other moves that we have been told are forthcoming.  If this is just a stop-gap move to allow time for the real plan to come to fruition, then that's fine.  But if this is part of their team-building strategy then we're really going to be in trouble -- I mean like Pittsburgh Pirates trouble. Or maybe the 2007 SF Giants would be a more realistic gruesome outcome of that type of approach. So, I'd say the preliminary indications on the Mozeliak regime aren't so promising, as it appears to be more of the same ol' same ol', but it is far too early to draw any real conclusions.  Let's give the guy at least one full off-season to put a team together, eh?

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why assume that Itzuris is the full time SS?
Is it possible that TLR intends to platoon Ryan and Itzuris, and perhaps even platoon the trio of Ryan, Itzuris, and Kennedy?  I can imagine games when Ryan starts, Cards get a close lead, and Itzuris comes in as a defensive replacement.  Or, we all know how TLR looks at match-ups in extraordinary detail, and will look for any platoon / match-up advantage he can find.

Now, that argument doesn't hold if they bring Miles back.  But if Miles isn't resigned, then I don't have a major problem with it.  

I also think it's safe to assume that the organization doesn't see much upside in Ryan.  So the argument that Itzuris is blocking Ryan's development doesn't hold if the team doesn't believe there's much room for Ryan to develop.

For me, I'm not overwhelmed with the move, but given the 1 year contract and small dollars, I don't have huge problem with it (assuming Miles isn't resigned).  It's a much better deal than the Encarnacion signing for example.

by Knish on Dec 1, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis playing time
If Izturis was signed as a back-up, then the acquisition is even worse.  Then you basically have a $3M version of Aaron Miles, with a better glove but a weaker bat (shudder).

If I had to describe the signing with one word, my guess is that its for "stability."  They want a "reliable" option that they can use in case Ryan doesn't make it and/or Kennedy's production doesn't return to his career norm.  So, best guess, the plan is to play Izturis at short and Kennedy at second, and let Ryan back them both up.  Or more likely La Russa does his normal thing and they each get 400 AB's.  Hopefully they let Ryan and the Hoff have a real chance to win starting jobs out of spring training.  If that is the case then this signing isn't too bad.  

However, I think it is a fallacy to think that signing a decidedly mediocre player to a 1-year deal gives you stability.  In reality all this type of thing does is put off the development of real stability -- that is, real long-term solutions.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What?
Why do you claim signing Izturis has "basically just stolen a year of development from a young player who is under control for five years in exchange for one year of a veteran who isn't any better in the first place"?   This is a real stretch.

Ryan will start 2008 at the age of 26.   Cesar will start the year at the age of 28.   It took Ryan 2 years of college ball and 5 years in the minors to break the big leagues (by the skin of his teeth if you ask me).  

How can you consider him a "young player" who deserves a "year of development"?  And, if you do consider him a still developing player, how can you in turn claim Izturis isn't?

And, in regards to tones and reactions...if you think other users don't notice a pattern of behavior/reactions and consider it when wieghing the merit of a poster's comments, you are mistaken.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

realistic scenario
azru, friday, suggested anderson for jed lowrie and I repeated it the other day not knowing that it had been azru's suggestion. Wouldn't this count as a meaningful upgrade?

It would have had a significant cost -- Anderson -- and maybe wouldn't have been worth it, but I think that counts.

by chuckb on Dec 1, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree that might be an option worth exploring
but we don't know if it was explored --- and we also don't know if the red sox would accept that offer. we shouldn't assume that all the trades we propose to acquire some other team's young ss are truly realistic.

moreover, as i said above, the cards have already spent two #1 draft picks on SS in the last three years. if they trade anderson --- a 4th-rounder from 2005 --- that's a pretty skewed distibution of resources. then you create a hole at catcher, where we're already saddled with a weak hitter who's entering his arbitration years. if you trade anderson, then 3 years from now when yadi hits free agency you have no catcher, but 2 cost-controlled shorstops --- maybe 3, if jose martinez and/or brendan ryan proves to be worth anything.

i will agree that the cardinals could have made it their priority to trade for a good young ss. but freeing one up might not be as easy as we think. probably a better idea would be to go with a 6-year free agent, or a castoff like ben zobrist --- but we know tony wouldn't go for that. so we're back to arguing about whether or not they should have re-hired tony. i wish they hadn't, but they did.

by lboros on Dec 2, 2007 8:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nicholas Derba (22)
has a ton of potential at catcher.  Obviously we have to take his age into account, but he seems to be an extremely patient hitter, putting up an isolated patience rate of .123 at high A, and though he finished the year in a dreadful slump (2 for 28 in his last ten games) he still put up a .391 OBP at the Swing.  Defensively, BA ranked his arm as the very best for catchers in the minor leagues:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=586

So there's a very good chance he'll be better than anderson AND molina in a year or two.  Steve Hill can also play C and is a sleeper candidate for "yadier replacement unit".  IMHO these guys make Anderson available to trade for a player at a different position that we need to fill today; we'll still have some guys who can take over for yadi in 2 years if necessary.

Agree on TLR ;)

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 3, 2007 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LB
once again LB way to harness the hysteria and put it into context!  You are verry good at writing as soothing well thought out entry the day after people are jumping off the ledge.

I think the best thing you said, I am paraphrasing because I am too lazy to cut and paste is... "the cardinals are a mediocre team and would be if they have Zobrist, Ryan, or Izturis playing SS"  Izturis does not hurt the team I see Izturis and Ryan spliting time and I actually see Ryan getting to play 100+ games which is more than enough to see what type of player he may be.  I think someone said it best about people seem to be thinking Ryan was better than he actually was.  I think the Cardinals need a "true" SS.  If Ryan gets hurt then Izturis can play full time and he is a "true" SS.  If Izturis gets hurt then Ryan can play full time and he is a "true" SS.  I did not want to see Hoffpauir, Kennedy, Miles, or Barden trying to play 70+ games at SS next year.  I think I would kill myself if I had to watch those butchers play SS.  Trust me watch guys play defensively and "true" SS move differently than fill in SS.  Barden is not a full time SS by anymeans.  I watched him play and he is not going to be effective playing many innings at SS.  Kennedy is obviously not a SS, and Miles can do it off an on but not consistently.  Hoffpauir by all accounts is not a "true" SS either.

I see this move as a whatever type thing.  Not like STL was WS bound in 2008.  Who knows something may happen later or during the 2008 season to help the SS problem.  I am willing to be patient and hope guys get better in 2008.  

by ICbirdfan on Dec 1, 2007 10:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok LB...
Shall we revisit this on opening day?

Miles is Tony's guy, and they didn't give Izturis 3M guaranteed to compete for a job.

Why is it wrong for me to assume that Miles will be on the team, but right for you to assume that he won't?

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

difference
between assuming and saying it as fact--as you've seem to have done.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 1, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bobby b, if miles stays on the roster
there will be plenty of time to bitch about it at that time. why bitch about it before then? it rubs people the wrong way.

i think miles is going to be non-tendered.

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope you are right
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't
Tony quoted as saying that he wanted Ryan to do an "apprenticeship" or was that you Larry? If it was Tony wouldn't that mean that Miles would have to make room for Ryan.

 Miles should be non-tendered. If he can't find job my soft heart might be willing to invite him to camp as a non-roster invitetee.

 Hoff will start the season at AAA, and if Kennedy can't get his shit together Hoff will be called up when Kennedy goes on the "DL."

 

by nybirdfan on Dec 1, 2007 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

soooooooooo
What you're saying is that Tony has no judge of talent.  It's obvious that Miles isn't a good player, but what makes you think that they'd keep him if Ryan puts up a strong spring?  Show me an example of TLR keeping a player around who wasn't useful anymore when he had the choice to give a better player a shot.  

What makes you think that TLR has the say in whether Miles stays or not?  If I was Mo this is probably where I make my stand with LaRussa:  non-tender Miles and tell him he's stuck with a Izturis, Kennedy, Ryan for MI next year.

Dumping Miles is probably the best thing that the club could do at this point.  It gives Ryan more AB's in spring training to try and win the job from Adam Kennedy, which would be a good thing for this ballclub IMHO.  

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miles is a plus bench player due to
his switch hitting bat and postion flexability..
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 1, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really
I don't see how being able to bat poorly from both sides of the plate and to play multiple positions poorly makes you more of an asset.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 10:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TLR and switch hitters
>>I don't see how being able to bat poorly from both sides of the plate and to play multiple positions poorly makes you more of an asset.<<

TLR is fixated on having switch-hitting bench players, especially on the infield (see Speizio and Miles).  It the pinch hitting, lefty-righty matchup thing.  TLR reportedly told Bo Hart in Spring Training several years back that his only way to make the team as a bench player was to switch hit (which he tried to do in spring to ugly results).

by jjray on Dec 1, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bat poorly?
As a LHB, Miles hit .292. As a RHB, he hit .286. No, he doesn't have a lot of power, but I don't consider that a black mark. He's a good singles switch-hitter, somebody who hits nearly equally from both sides from the plate. Identify somebody else on the roster who gives the Cardinals that.

by Forsch31 on Dec 1, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miles...
He's a singles hitter who does NOTHING else well.  Doesn't walk, no power, no speed, no glove, no arm.

He's flat out terrible and shouldn't be on a major league team.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miles
Of course I knew someone would bring this up.  Miles has a career OPS+ of 73.  He is NOT a good hitter.  I must admit that my original comment was a bit of hyperbole, but not much.  Miles is fine as your last bench player in the infield.  It's OK if he gives other guys a break once in a while.  But his "versatility" is an illusion.  In reality he is a poor-hitting backup at 2B.  That's it.  The problem is that in each of his two years with the Cardinals he has had around 450 AB and he's played around 85 games at 2B and 40 at SS.  This is a huge problem.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What was his OBP???
SLG??? How did he play on defense???

He'd have to have a .330 avg to be even mildly useful.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

kennedy
AK is worse!  

by ICbirdfan on Dec 1, 2007 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not over the long-term
Kennedy had an unexpected and precipitous decline as a Cardinal, but Miles has always been mediocre. Miles has had four years with a significant number of at-bats in the majors.  His highest OPS+ was 76. Between 2001 and 2006 Kennedy's lowest OPS+ was 81. Remember that Kennedy's signing was widely lauded as a good deal.  Of course last year Kennedy put up an OPS+ of 50, which is almost Mendoza-line bad.  We just have to hope he returns to something like his historical norm, which isn't than unreasonable an expectation given his age.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll be excoriated...
and dissed... because I am not a numbers guy.  But I weigh in on this very interesting discussion anyway:
I predict that the queasiness over the Izturis signing will be short-lived... because... by the end of April, he will have racked up enough 0-fers (while not looking all that terrific on defense either)that he will be g-o-n-e.  Or at the very least at the farthest end of the bench.
Thus, B.Ryan WILL end up getting his chance. {I am basically in the pro-Ryan camp, but quietly so.} And I sense that even the Ryan doubters seem to concede that he deserves that chance. Repeat: he'll get it.

On the Miles issue, I can't and won't play the numbers game re him... me being a 'watcher' not a 'calculator' type fan.  But I do not see Miles as desperate and confused at the plate the way Adam Kennedy is.  Moreover, unlike AK, Miles is a switch-hitter and CAN (even if just adequately) play more positions than AK.  
And I rank Izturis as a poor man's Juan Pierre (which is pretty frightening.)

In sum, I don't think our collective worry-wart energy is deserved re middle infield, as much as we should be nail-biting over Edmonds/Rolen, and, for golly sakes, starting PITCHING.
By June, our MI will be some combination of Ryan, Miles, and X.  ((Bring back the Grudz ! ))

by the Tewk on Dec 1, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Off the bench when you need a hit he comes
through. He may not pound the ball but he will get a hit. He can face a righty or lefty. He is not a leadoff hitter i agree but i never said he was.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 1, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's pretty much my point..
You can bring up OBP all you want, but if you're talking about hitting, you talk about hitting, which is what Miles can do. As the only legit switch-hitter on the team, he has value as a pitch-hitter off the bench. I'm not a fan of hyperbole...it serves no use in a reasoned debate.

by Forsch31 on Dec 1, 2007 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wrong
Miles is not the only legit switch hitter.   First of all he's not a legit hitter, period.

Secondly, Spiezio is a switch hitter and even his weak side is better than Miles strong side.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 10:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A more precise statement on Aaron Miles
Hyperbole is a commonly used literary device designed to emphasize a point.  On the other hand, use of imprecise and ill-defined terminology really hinders communication.  I'm not sure what you mean when you say Aaron Miles "can do" hitting, and that he is a "legit" switch-hitter.  If by legit, you mean that he produces singles at a somewhat higher rate than the average ML player, I'll accept that.  But a more complete evaluation of his ability as a batter is that Miles produces runs at a substantially lower rate than the average ML player.  He is definitely not a good hitter, and it's not really a stretch to say that he's a poor hitter.    

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

TLR is the manager
And he IS getting what he wants.  He has four guys coming into spring training (assuming Miles is still here) who will compete for two MI jobs.

That is what he likes and in my opinion, that isn't the worst thing that can happen to the club.

by Anteus on Dec 1, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

costs
i'm with lb on this one.  it's making the best of a bad situation.  i also agree the real issue is whether ryan stays, regardless of whether miles does (eck's desire for $ & years was just too much and i wonder where he feels he is going to get those numbers?).  if ryan isn't viewed as a long term possibility, seems they would have ponied up for tejada with the idea of transitioning him from short to third when rolen leaves (or similar).  as usual the cards will be doing a lot of gambling on careers being resurrected or reinvigorated. maybe the bird on the bat should be a phoenix rather than a cardinal?

by sportsman on Dec 1, 2007 9:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yep
Thanks, Eck. Good luck wherever you land.

by rockin redbird on Dec 1, 2007 10:14 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The real question...
On its own, this move rates a solid "meh".  No real upside, but not a lot of cost either.  The negative reaction is because of what it seems to say about the direction of the Cardinals.  This is a La Russa move through-and-through. The problem with this is the opportunity cost, the lost chance to try to develop a long-term solution.  The Cardinals objective should be to try to rebuild a championship-caliber team within the timeframe of AP's current contract.  This move does nothing to advance that objective.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 10:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Opportunity cost
There is no opportunity cost in this transaction.  As has been well documented over the last couple of weeks on this site, there was no one in the minors, on the free agent market, or by trade that a) was a significant improvement or b) the Cardinals had the money or players to get.

It's the best that could be done under the circumstances.

But I do agree that this is not the move that makes us a 100 win team again.

by Anteus on Dec 1, 2007 10:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lost opportunities
I think this is false.  Maybe what you mean is that there is no obvious alternative with a high probability of yielding better production at a reasonable cost.  But I would even disagree with that.  Brendan Ryan is cheaper and, on aggregate, can be expected to offer generally similar performance. Furthermore, Ryan is two years younger than Izturis and could conceivably get better -- in fact, simply maintaining his hitting from 2007 would be just fine.  Izturis offers more certainty, but that's not necessarily good. He offers basically replacement-level production with his bat, and a decent but not great glove.  We already have that in Ryan, and, again, Ryan could get better. Similarly, we could take a chance on a Rule-5 draftee or get a AAAA-type on the cheap.  In other words, take some risks on players who would be less certain to achieve Izturis's performance in 2008, but have a chance to be a long-term solution.

I am concerned about the Cards because they can't seem to break out of the mentality of investing in  mediocrity. Realistically, we should look at 2008 as a developmental year, and therefore we should dedicate it to finding out if some of the younger players, like Ryan and Duncan and Ankiel and Ludwick and Hoffpauir, can play every day.  We should also be willing to take some chances on younger players outside the organization, like Rule-5 draftees.  When we make short-term investments in mediocre veterans, like Miles and Izturis, the opportunity cost comes from missing out on the chance to try out younger players who might actually be good over the long term.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well said
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ss issues
i'm a it confused as to why so many are assuming that signing ci means he will start at ss or even play more games than ryan.  hard to say what ryan can do, but i do feel like handing him job, as opposed to competing with izturis (rather than mikes), is really a necessary thing for his development and getting the best we can on the field.  eck wanted something we could/should not provide. so, sad to see him go, but really that was his decision, though i think he will regret it sooner rather than later.

by sportsman on Dec 1, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't really agree
While I agree with the rule 5 and risk segments of your post, I completely disagree with your arguements as to Ryan.

I was calling for Ryan to be our SS barring a trade for a younger, better upside acquisition.

However, I do not feel Ryan has any more potential to "get better" than does Izturis.

Ryan is not young, he's going to be 26.  He has 2 years of college and 5 years of minor league experience.   Additionally, his 2007 small-sample ML statistics greatly outperformed his MLEs.  

As 2007 could be considered over-performing by Ryan, there is greater chance for him to break out the chance Cesar Izturis could.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

meant to say
there is no greater chance

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly what I am trying to say
Ryan could progress and become an all-star.

It is equally probable that Izturis could revert to his 2004 form.

Either way is a plus situation.  Both are possible, neither are likely.

There is now competition in spring training for the starting SS job.  Just what TLR loves, and what we agonize over.

by Anteus on Dec 1, 2007 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.
Izturis putting up an 88 OPS+ for the second time in his miserable career is not a plus situation. Since neither situation is likely, and you are dealing with players that aren't that great, you put the one on the field that you have control over. The one who also hasn't made a career of having an OBP south of .300. That way, if lightning does strike, you actually have something of a commodity, instead of just watching some poor team sign Izturis next offseason.

There's no upside. He's quite possibly the worst hitting regular in MLB this decade.

If Ryan put up a .340 OBP and plays solid defense, then you've got something that helps either in trade or in your roster construction for 2009 and beyond.

It's an incredibly shortsighted move to assuage the manager. How much is TLR worth anyway? We have to hand out arbitrary 3 million dollar contracts that make the team worse, just because he won't start Ryan? Add that on to the 9 million he's already making I guess.

by plh903 on Dec 1, 2007 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

.340 OBP???
Ryan barely averaged that over 5 years in the minors despite generally being 2 years older than everyone else at each level he played.

He's going to be 26, has had 5 years of minor league development and 2 years of college.

Nothing in his minor league career would indicate developing into someone with decent major league on base skills.

At 26 with 1400+ minor league ABs, I would say he's about as likely to have an OBP as Izturis is to top his 88 OPS+.

I advocated Ryan for the starting job to buy time and save $.   In no way do I think he needs evaluating to see if he's a starter at the ML level.   He's got no more development to go.   He's there.  This is it.  

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh
"At 26 with 1400+ minor league ABs, I would say he's about as likely to have an OBP as Izturis is to top his 88 OPS+."

Which is essentially what I said. You know, the whole "lightning striking" bit and what that would represent for the two players. Maybe read a little more carefully before the excessive punctuation next time.

ZiPS puts the 50th line at .315 for Ryan. I'll bet PECOTA likes him a bit more. I'm comfortable with that.

He's already better than Izturis, that I'm certain of.

by plh903 on Dec 1, 2007 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

excessive punctuation
You mean I should have more carefully read and deciphered this 3 comma run-on gem?  You really told me!

  *That way, if lightning does strike, you actually have something of a commodity, instead of just watching some poor team sign Izturis next offseason. *

There isn't even a PECOTA for Ryan.   Could be a coincidence, I guess.   But, maybe it's because after so much time in the minors no one thought he would ever break the Majors.

PECOTA does, however, project an OBP higher than .320 for Izturis the next 2 years.  And, his 50 percentile last year was an OBP of .327.  Still sucks.  However, you could make a strong arguement that Izturis hasn't reached his potential while Ryan has overachieved his.

I was all for not wasting money and playing Ryan everyday.  He probably is better than Izturis.   I simply cannot agree with the statement we should simply play him every day because he's under team control.   I see nothing in him to indicate there's a hidden lightning rod.  

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was talking about
the three question marks. I assumed those meant that you were incredulous with the idea that Ryan would post an OBP of .340, when what I meant was that he might.

That's not a hard sentence to decipher, despite the comma splice or whatever. This whole grammar police business surprises me. Usually I enjoy your posts and you are quite reasonable. I guess you misinterpreted my comments or came off poorly. Whatever.

Anyway, I said I thought PECOTA might like him a tad more than ZIPS because he's listed at 6'2" 195 lbs. I assume he'll get a 2008 projection.

It's pretty curious that PECOTA expects Izturis to EQA above replacement level and OBP over .320 for the next few years when he's done that once. OK, twice if you count the FSL. Oddly enough, it expects Juan Uribe to be better than league average for the next few years (he's also done this once). Both guys have been pretty consistently below replacement level lately. I'm genuinely curious why that is, and to see their new projections.

I certainly think Izturis is more of a known quantity than Ryan. I do think Ryan is a better player, and that's pretty demonstrable. That neither have huge upsides, but Ryan's is probably a little higher. I also don't think either of them have an "internal lightning rod." I just happen to think that all players are subject to a good bit of variance in a given year.

Apack puts it better than I did originally in his response.

by plh903 on Dec 2, 2007 12:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That should be
"or I came of poorly"

by plh903 on Dec 2, 2007 12:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My apologies
I am also not a fan of grammer police.

I also enjoy your insight and posts.

I think the misunderstanding was mostly on my part.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 2, 2007 4:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes it is a plus situation
if Izturis puts up gold glove defense and gives us your 88 OPS+.  And you assume because the club signed Izturis, that Ryan doesn't have a chance.  I don't see it that way at all.  I see this as getting someone on the club who is going to give Ryan competition.  We will see what he does with it.

I don't see this as making the club worse.  It doesn't make it dramatically better, but it doesn't make it worse.

And what is TLR worth?  About 2200 career victories.  Most victories by a St Louis Manager.  Playoff appearances.  World Series Championship.  And so on.

by Anteus on Dec 1, 2007 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gold gloves
We all know Jeter won that year in the AL, right? I'm not sure if Izturis was any good with the glove that year. My guess is he was overrated defensively by baseball people like he is now. That was also a few years ago. Lately the metrics don't like him a whole lot.

The club knows that Izturis is worse than Ryan, or equally bad at best. The Cardinals have a sabermetric department that reports to Mo. I've made it clear in this thread why I think they picked him up and as such, I don't think Ryan has a real shot. In fact, I'd put money on him being in Memphis.

It's not really about that though. The club felt like it needed to go out and lock up one of the worst players in major league baseball before the winter meetings. I guess that's what you'd call aggressive. Mo said he'd be. I'm sure there are several possible reasons, but either way it seems like it stinks.

I do know the list TLR's career accomplishments. I have a lot of respect for him and like the guy. Not that it matters considering I'm just some alphanumeric pseudonym on a blog. I'm honestly curious about the thought process that goes into bringing him back, IF (and that's a big bold "if" for a reason) they are going to eat millions on Rolen, and spend millions downgrading positions because of his personal preferences in players.

I'm perplexed and concerned about a lot of the thought processes for the powers that be on the Cardinals right now. The only evidence will come in W/L over the next few years. We'll never have much in the way of exactly why. However, I'm pretty skeptical that those wins are going to come based on what I've seen so far. Yes, it's ridiculously early and all that.

by plh903 on Dec 2, 2007 1:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right
If you're going to put in a stop-gap who's not likely to be very good, at least he should be young and cheap.  The cheap part should be obvious, but younger is also important because that makes it more likely that he could get better.  Basically, there is some hope that Ryan could maintain his 2007 hitting, which would make him a valuable shortstop. I fully realize that he hasn't performed that way in the minors, and that 2007 was a relatively small sample size. But there is at least hope, enough hope that you can take a chance on it when other good options aren't available.  But there is no hope that Izturis will become a good hitter.  None, zip, nada.  And, even worse, if by some miracle Izturis does get better then we would have to pay full market value for him after next year.  Conversely, if Ryan has somehow learned to be a good hitter (and there are always some late bloomers), then we have a reasonable cheap shortstop option for a few years, and an asset we can trade later if/when we produce someone better.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 7:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What if
What if last year for Ryan was equivalent to 2004 for Izturis?  What if that was an abberation and Ryan is not close to that good?  FYI Izturis will be 28 and Ryan will be 26 at the start of next season, it's not like Ryan is way younger than Izturis.  I would pretty much call them the same age.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 1, 2007 7:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

aside from eck hitting
that ball granderson couldn't catch, my favorite eck moment came when he hit a walk of grand slam against chris reitsma of the braves on 8/7/05. that is one of my many favorite memories from that season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250807124

by erik on Dec 1, 2007 10:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hear, hear!
Regardless of his stats (which were decent), I will remember Eckstein more fondly and distinctly than many who have worn Cardinal red and put up better numbers.  Thanks for the memories...

by bgodar on Dec 1, 2007 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't it against the Nationals that he
faked a bunt and hit a HR down the line instead?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I forget...
...who it was against, but I had never seen a professional baseball player do that before.  I have coached girls' softball before and have seen it plenty of times...maybe that is why I like Eck so much!  :)

stlfan

by stlfan on Dec 1, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It was
It was in RFK that he did it.

by Tarheel85 on Dec 1, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Boom goes the dyno-MITE
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/WAS/WAS200508270.shtml

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20050827&content_id=1185921&vkey=wrapup20 05&fext=.jsp&team=away

It was a Fox National Broadcast too.  I wondered how the heck I had watched the game live.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hear hear
He was a CARDINALS WORLD SERIES MVP. There's no way we'll forget him. I'll root for Eck wherever he goes (unless it's the North Side).
"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Dec 1, 2007 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ditto that
Somehow I ended up getting to sit in the 3rd row behind the braves dugout for that one. A classic moment indeed

by The Butcher on Dec 1, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my favorite Eck memory
was when Zambrano brushed him back, and he ran out to the mound, drop-kicked Big Z, and beat the living tar out of him.  Everyone else remembers that, right? I can't wait to tell my grandkids about that.

by siddfynch on Dec 1, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

precious !
you made me laugh out loud.
Thanks, sidd.

by the Tewk on Dec 1, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if that had really happened
Mo would have HAD to give him 5/60.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 2, 2007 2:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1
I was at that game with a bunch of Braves fans from my church. After watching Marquis get roughed up the day before, that was phenomenal. In fact, I've got the ticket and scorecard from that game framed in my room right now.

by Jhusk on Dec 2, 2007 3:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good point on Miles
If he's not back, we've saved $1m.   It makes Izturis look a tad better.

by sdrone on Dec 1, 2007 10:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Miles back?

No way! Already too many "so-so" players around, Izturis is giving the veteran presence needed to platoon Rayan and give Kennedy rest, so there is no need to have Miles around. Moreover the Cards need a leadoff, so the efforts should be in the direction to fill that hole (and pitching).

If Rolen gets traded, maybe pursuing Chone Figgins could be the best answer to cover 3d (even if he is not that perfect there) and to have a leadoff hitter (with Hoffpauir in the making...) in the same person, but I do not know he is someone that the Cards could obtain (it's a couple of years that his name is on the trade blocks, so he should be available).

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Dec 1, 2007 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have rather wasted $5 M
on Alexei Ramirez to either be a star or nothing at all than waste $3.5 M on Cezar Izturis to be absolutely nothing.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 11:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

You'd rather waste...
$5 million on a guy that has never played at any level of the minors and may not even be a MLB caliber defensive SS than to spend $3 million on a guy who's been a gold glover in the past and has shown that he can at least compete at this level?

I really never thought I'd hear that from you Hardcore, you seem to be one of the more forward thinking posters on VEB.  You must really hate Izturis or something...lol

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm...
"I really never thought I'd hear that from you Hardcore, you seem to be one of the more forward thinking posters on VEB."

His idea IS forward thinking.  More risky to be sure, but definitely forward thinking.

Signing guys like Izturis, because...well, just because would be considered backward thinking.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

whatever
how is paying $5 million for two years for a complete unknown "forward thinking"?!?!?  At least you know what you get from Izturis, you have no clue what you get from Ramirez and if he totally sucks and can't make it at the big league level you've effectively wasted $5 million and haven't solved the problem of who starts at short.  So you could effectively be WORSE off than you were before.  How many of the Cuban position players that have defected have been solid big league regulars?

I guess you think Hank Steinbrenner is forward thinking by that rationale; "Hell, we got a problem, lets throw a shitload of money at it and see if anything sticks..."

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
You know what you get from Izturis and that is exactly my point.  Thank you for claryfiying by the way.

Izturis sucks...you know that.  Now maybe he won't suck so bad that you have to DFA him but that isn't the point.  At the absolute peak of his translation he is still below average.

Now with the talent that Ramirez has, he actually has a chance to be a plus player.

To answer your question...I would ABSOLUTELY rather gamble the money on someone who has a chance to actually be good even with the possibility that he never steps on a major league field.  It's not at all reasonable to even think there is a chance that Izturis can be "good".

Let's put it this way...The Cardinals are picking in the first round of the draft.  The best available player in the draft has fallen to you because he is demanding a 5M dollar signing bonus.  Now there is a safe pick there that wants 2M.

Would you rather spend that 3M there or spend making sure you've locked up mediocrity on your big league roster?

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Draft is different
Your draft comparison is apples to oranges.  Neither of those drafted players is going to be an option next year or the year after more than likely -- what you're talking about is signing Ramirez to be the shortstop next year at $5 million over 1 or 2 seasons.  You have no idea if he can make the ballclub or not.  I would say there's a 85% chance he's not good enough to play right away opening day.  If he doesn't make the ballclub or stinks beyond all reasonable doubt, what do the Cardinals do?  They've sunk $5 million into a player that isn't any good and now have to spend MORE to go get a guy who can help them in the middle infield.  That would mean trading for a below average player and giving up talent to get him since all the free agents capable of starting would be signed to contracts as utility or minor league players.  The team would then be in a lurch and would have to start Miles or Ryan at short, which is a far worse situation than having Izturis there because we know he can at least man the position and play decent defense.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know what Cezar can do
he can be one of the 5 worst hitters in all of baseball and show limited range since his knee injury.

I don't know what Alexei can do, other than hit HRs in world competitions and play 2 of the most demanding positions on the field (SS and CF).

I'd rather take my chances that Alexei turn out to be a steal than have Cezar steal $3.5 M from DeWitt & Co.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess
you should be an NBA GM, where all that matters is upside, upside, updside.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cezar Izturis is one of the 5 worst hitters in
baseball over the last 5 years.

It's not so much about upside, it's about the fact that Izturis is terrible.  And we'll be paying him the same as the 2B we comitted to for 3 years, Adam Kennedy.

That's how highly they think of Cezar and that is plain scary.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

comparables...
Here are some Cuban position players for comparison:

Yuniesky Betancourt, SS, Seattle:

.284/.307/.404     OPS+: 88  

Kendry Morales, 1B/RF/DH, Anaheim:

.256/.308/.411   OPS+: 86  

I memory serves me, these two guys were much more hyped when they defected than Ramirez is, and both were probably more polished players when they hit the big leagues than Ramirez would be.  I've read some scouting on Ramirez after he was brought up and scouts seem to think he's got a long swing (which usually translates to less power and more strikeouts after the jump to MLB) and isn't projected to be even an average glove at the SS position.  If the best that can be expected from Ramirez is an OPS < 88 I'll settle for one year of a cruddy offensive and plus defensive SS.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who is going to play the plus defense
not Cezar and his bad knee.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You do realize
that if you take out Izturis' career year of 2004 in which he posted an OPS+ of 88, almost 20 points higher than every other full year in his career, he averages out to about an OPS+ of 62.

I'd rather take my chances with Alexei.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you....
only for the fact that Ramirez will get nowhere near 5M...maybe for two years.

His agent continually refers to him as a guy who "could make a ball club".  Doesn't sound like he'll be getting that kind of money to me.

Here is where your point is made though...While Ramirez has the chance to completely flame out, he's also got the chance to be a plus player.  Izturis is gonna suck, but hopefully he'll have one of his better years and won't have to be DFA'd.

I'd rather take the chance on someone who actually has a chance to make an impact.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't totally understand the disdain for Miles
I seem to remember the guy having a few clutch moments over the past couple of years. Granted, I'm not bothering to pull up his stats, but he always struck me as having a "the pieces are greater than the sum of the parts" type of game, which makes no sense, but it's how I feel. He's a bench player, nothing more, but a serviceable one.

That said, with Ryan, Kennedy and Izturis on the roster, he really should be gone.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Dec 1, 2007 11:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it is a bad signing
As much as I like Ryan, I realize we probably over-estimate his abilities.  We need other options.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 1, 2007 11:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Other options
would be like when we traded for Timo Perez's minor league contract or for Larry Bigbie.  We are paying Izturis (with his AB bonus) as much as we signed our supposed starting 2B for.

Mo overpaid because he was worried 2 other teams were going to snatch up Izturis.  Oh no!  What a terrible thing to have happen!

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually
I think signing Izturis was a way to have a full roster of starting players heading into the winter meetings so that the Cardinals don't have a perceptible "need" for anything except a decent starting pitcher.  For the amount they're paying him, he could start at SS and not really hurt us, and he's a tremendous upgrade defensively over Eckstein.  I think it lets Mo deal a bit more from a position of strengh instead of having every team dangle their top SS prospect at him for someone like Reyes.  This may well keep the front office from making a really bad deal just to fill the void at SS.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a good point.
It resembles the Mianya deal with the Nats. He plugged his holes. I think it gives us more flexibilty at the meetings as well. You never know maybe somebody might want Ryan in a package for a pitcher.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 1, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If we are trying to model our GM
towards moves Omar Minaya makes, we are in serious trouble.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Especially that move
This made me want to weep for my pop, who's a fan of the Flushing Pond Scum.

by liam on Dec 1, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nah...
Not buying it.

I don't see how having all 8 positions filled makes us more flexible.

Mo isn't dealing from a position of strength.  That's painfully obvious.  We don't/won't part with the chips to land an impact player through trade, and we are basically tapped out within our budget.

He's got a really tough job in front of him.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Explain
How is he tapped out on payroll?  DeWitt has said that payroll could go to $115 million for next season, so he's certainly not tapped out.  

It DOES give us more flexibility at the winter meetings because it's easier to deal Rolen or Duncan when you aren't also looking for a SS to play every day.

Mo certainly isn't going to move any of the young guys for an albatross like Tejada or Miggy Cabrera either, that would just be a terrible business transaction any way you slice it, and it's something that Jocketty did all the time which is part of the reason why our farm system has such terrible depth.  You can't have your cake and eat it too, there needs to be some fiscal responsibility this season to leave money available to sign some of the possible free agents in '09 or make deadline moves next season for someone who can really help out the ballclub.  If you're expecting a splash free agent signing every offseason then you are rooting for the wrong ballclub because that simply won't happen in St. Louis.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OK
"How is he tapped out on payroll?  DeWitt has said that payroll could go to $115 million for next season, so he's certainly not tapped out."

Seems to me according to LBs last roster matrix we now are on the hook for about 109M so far.  They always leave room in the budget for a midseason pickup.  In any case there isn't enough money left to add anyone of significance unless we can pry a very good pre arb player which seems almost impossible.-

"Mo certainly isn't going to move any of the young guys for an albatross like Tejada or Miggy Cabrera either, that would just be a terrible business transaction any way you slice it, and it's something that Jocketty did all the time which is part of the reason why our farm system has such terrible depth.  You can't have your cake and eat it too, there needs to be some fiscal responsibility this season to leave money available to sign some of the possible free agents in '09 or make deadline moves next season for someone who can really help out the ballclub.  If you're expecting a splash free agent signing every offseason then you are rooting for the wrong ballclub because that simply won't happen in St. Louis."

Have you been reading any of my posts?  How can you dispute someone when you are saying virtually the same thing?

 

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then exactly
where do you stand?  As Stephen Colbert would say, "Pick a side, sir!!!"  

I hear you say that the Cardinals should be responsible in one breath and then say you're disappointed in what they're doing in the next breath.  Well, which is it?  As I said, you can't have it both ways and there are limited player options if you choose number one and tremendous potential for an albatross contract or a depleted farm system if you choose the other.  It's not like it's possible to do both at this time.  Either get behind what Mo is trying to do or jump all over his backside, but don't accept the organization's philosophy and bitch about it at the same time or you'll start sounding like a Cubs fan!

On to payroll...lb's projected roster matrix includes Rolen's contract, and it is obvious that they are trying to move him so that would provide some type of relief depending on what the Cards get back in return.  That would also open up even more payroll in the next two years to make some major moves in 2009 or 2010, which is why I advocate trying to move him as a salary dump simply because it gives them better options and more flexibility down the road.  I would not move him if we end up paying a significant portion of his salary ($6 million or more) or if we offload the salary but can't pick up any value in return.  To this end I think a deal like Capuano/Hall for Rolen/Reyes/PTBNL/salary relief is a good deal for both sides.  Especially if Hall can play a good SS or 3B or the Cards can play him at short and sign a stopgap guy like Lamb to play 3rd.

I don't think that we're too far apart in our differences, and I think you have some good insights when you aren't just bitching...lol!  I would like to see the Cardinals open up the checkbook a little bit, but lets make sure that there is value to be had before getting on the hook for big contracts that are tough to shed.  Currently the Cards only have three contracts that are tough to trade for value, Rolen, Carp, and Encarnacion; all because of injury concerns that the ballclub really can't control.  Everybody else could be dealt or packaged in a deal without causing night sweats from the other side.  There are a lot of checkbook baseball teams that can't say that...(see Yankess, Red Sox, Cubs, Orioles)  Hopefully the farm system begins to fill out a bit as well which will give the front office even more options.

In summary, I think Mo has some decent options to look at this offseason, and he does have a bit of negotiating strength although not as much as other clubs with the same needs as ours.  If there is truly as much interest in Rolen as has been reported on ESPN and mlbtraderumors than I think Mo's got some work ahead of him to find a good deal that's a good fit for Scotty as well.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, no
we are on the hook for $102.4 M in payroll (that includes Cezar getting all the ABs he needs cause you know TLR will give them to him when we are 18 games back in August).

Still have $12.6 M to spend and that's without trading Braden Looper.  Trade Looper, you have $18.1 M to spend on 2 SPs and a RH OF bat.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Relax HL,
it is $3M and one year.  Maybe a contender will need a decent fielding ss by july next year and we can trade him for a bucket of balls.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 1, 2007 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Goes to show...
what kind of signing this is.

It's December and we are already hoping that we can trade our starting SS for a bucket of balls at the trade deadline.

Priceless!!!

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed..
It didn't cost the team prospects, it gives the team options. He's played three infield positions, has had a decent glove, and in the worst case situation he doesn't make it out of st. Most importantly, it is not a road block to rebuilding this club. Too many people are too busy making assumptions so that it fits their conspiracy theories. Take the deal for what it really is, it gives the Cards some options, in an off-season where they may not be a lot of options.
go crazy folks..........

by wwbd on Dec 1, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ss
i agree, it for sure puts mo in a better spot heading into the meetings.

by sportsman on Dec 1, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Alexi Ramirez?
Is there any possibility of adding ML INF and OF depth with Alexi Ramirez?  I keep forgetting about this guy.  Soon to establish residency in the Dominican Republic and becoming a FA.  Admittedly, I don't know much about him, other than seeing his name pop up here and there. Additionaly, I'm not sure of the $'s it would take to sign him, but if the $'s were right, seems like a low risk/middle reward type of signing - on par with what appears to be the clubs recent philosophy.

by Yield on Dec 1, 2007 12:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

TLR DUI Video
I noticed that someone posted the TLR DUI video, and then it was taken down.  

The video is widely available, and I don't object to the exercise of editorial control on the website.

But I thought I'd comment on the humanitarian impulse to censor the video.  Personally, my reaction to the video was mostly disappointment and a bit of anger.  Tony appeared unbelievably intoxicated and completely unfit to drive.  In my view, a man of his stature should bear the consequences of his poor choices, which in his case include a good deal of embarrassment.  I also wish he would have been more appropriately contrite about the incident.

To err is human, of course.  And Tony's infraction is forgivable.  Fortunately, no one was physically injured.  But forgiveness requires the appropriate apology, and I haven't heard that yet.  

Until then, I don't mind him eating a bit of crow over this.  

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Dec 1, 2007 1:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i took it down
because the video's 48 hours old by now --- it's old "news" and certainly not worth a separate diary. if anybody has missed this video and wants to watch it, there are links all over the place --- the post-dispatch and deadspin both come immediately to mind.

by lboros on Dec 1, 2007 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I posted a link to the video the other day......
perhaps it was the day it came out in one of our daily discussion threads.

I don't know if it is still up or not but if my post is the one being brought up I am terribly sorry.

I certainly didn't post it to offend Larry or anyone else for that matter.

My apologies.

by Pujols for MVP on Dec 1, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He did
plead guilty. In a world where he could have lawyered-up and drug it out and maybe slipped though, that's plenty enough admitting responsibility. Apology? Why do you believe he owes you an apology? Other than to his wife and children--and perhaps his employers, he owes nothing. To you, to me, or any fan. And really, what good would such a thing do? He fucked up, stood up and admitted it like a man, and is ready to take his court-directed lumps. That's good enough for me.

by rockin redbird on Dec 1, 2007 6:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Meh
Ryan's a better player than Izturis. This is just Tony and the organizations refusal to give him the job (because he's a rookie, or smiles or they don't think he's ready or Tony hates him etc), experiment with someone like Barden, take a flier on Zobrist, try and trade for Lillibridge, or whatever.

They just paid $3 million to downgrade at shortstop. It doesn't really matter in terms of wins, but this isn't something that a smart organization does. Gotta wonder who's pulling the strings.

If they want to wave the white flag or look for lightning in a bottle, they should do it with the guy that they have under control for five years, not the .295 OBP-for-the-entirety-of-his-professional-career mercenary that leaves after next season.

Anyway, saying that Tony LaRussa is making this team worse will probably piss a lot of people off, but ever move they are making or talking about making smacks of who he likes/dislikes ... eating Rolen's salary, dumping Reyes, refusing to give a better player in Ryan the SS position, Dave likes Pineiero, just DFAing one of the better hitters on the roster ...

by plh903 on Dec 1, 2007 1:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

OBP
It's not clear to me that the Cardinals' management really understands that you have to have guys get on base to score runs. That is somewhat scary.  And yes, so far it does appear that they are building the roster to La Russa's liking.  That is also scary.  In fact, this was one of my biggest fears when Mo was made GM.  But again, it's too early to really judge.  So far Mo has preserved (though not improved) the long-term prospects for the organization.  Presumably this was part of the strategy to try to remain competitive while rebuilding. We still have to see how it will play out.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mo...
When he was hired my initial thought was "Oh, FUCK!!!" Tony just got his "yes-man".  As time goes on, this is looking like more and more the case.

We'll see how the Miles situation plays out...if he stays....

A.  Mo is really stupid, and was a terrible hire.
B.  Tony is calling all the shots and Mo was a terrible hire.

This team has been making moves for quite some time now that reek of stupidity.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Miles gets dumped...
then maybe you are right LB.

Who knows, maybe you are right now.

Taguchi, Bennet Eck all gone.  That was the right thing to do.

If Miles is shown the door even better.

I've said repeatedly that they have to wait for prospects to be ready and dead money to come off the books.

My lack of confidence in current Cardinal leadership is based on what past leadership has done which probably isn't fair.

I won't pass final judgement until next offseason when the oppurtunity to improve will be there.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did anyone
take time from this back and forth to read the Bill James article on clutch hitting? AP's career numbers are just sick. As for Cesar, I'll save my complaining for the season. We still have a while to get there.

by boog on Dec 1, 2007 2:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ryan has options, correct?
A lot of bench players are not getting contracts similar to Izturis.  

And, without signing another SS, we have Miles as our only SS backup option.  

We really needed a little depth here.  

I would like to see another SS with upside added.  If so, Ryan can go back to "developing" his old self in AAA.   If not, we at least have a back up SS better than Miles should Ryan/Izturis get lame.

by RedbirdRay on Dec 1, 2007 3:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

plan for the future?
have you been reading red baron's entries about our draft?  that's our strategy.  to rebuild our farm system.  not to trade it away.  i agree we are gunshy but that is for good reason.  rasmus is untouchable, we are hoping garcia and ott will contribute soon, and kozma is the SS of the future.  the only trade chip that won't really hurt our future is anderson although depth at catcher is always valuable.

this is talked about everyday around here.  i don't know why people are still wondering what our plan is.  you're not going to learn anything significant about Mo's tenure until next off season.  That's when our farm system will contribute MLB ready players and we will lots of payroll coming off the books.  Then we will see if the cards management has learned anything.

i like the things i've seen do far.

by FutureMan on Dec 1, 2007 3:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Anderson could fetch a King's ransom
the catching market is so very, very thin.  Everyone that has catching has young, talented catcher's locked up. Everyone else looking for it (Mets, Yankees, Brewers, etc) had to pay through the nose for terrible talent or are still trying to rearrange the deckchairs.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 1, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the market for Anderson
I wonder though if the market for Bryan Anderson might go through the roof after a year at AAA if he continues to hit anywhere near the level he has as a minor leaguer and continues to hone his defense.  If the team intends to use Anderson as trade bait, the question becomes when to sell.

by jjray on Dec 1, 2007 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You know what -I DON'T want to trade
Anderson.  Not now.  I like Yadi fine and all, but the idea of a good hitting catcher is very appealing to me.  There are a few who are average or better on defense who can still hit-Mauer, McCann, Posada, and Russell.  I would really like to see if Anderson can develop into one of those kind of guys.  He's going into his AAA season as a 21 year-old which is quite an accomplishment.  Why not hold on to him long enough to see how he develops?  Wouldn't you want  a bat at that position if you could get one?  I'd like to see it play out awhile longer.  Don't trade Anderson.

by jillsinmo on Dec 1, 2007 11:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hey jill
i agree that i wouldnt want to trade anderson; at least at this time

give him a year at AAA, and then see where you are

and if down the road we want to keep him and yadi, move anderson off catcher; i could see him at third, maybe second, or if he displays some power a corner outfield spot

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Dec 2, 2007 1:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just Imagine...
what Yadi might bring.
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 1, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Planning for the future
If your plan is to build through the draft, then you definitely should offer Eck arbitration and hope he doesn't sign. Of course this carries the risk that he will sign and maybe you overpay a bit for a SS for one year.  But we know that they weren't too worried about Eck's performance, as they (apparently) offered him a two-year deal.  What they were worried about is not being able to get Izturis if Eck. declined arbitration.  This seems like a bad decision to me.  Essentially, here they made a decision to "improve" or "stabilize" the team next year instead of trying to get the pick and build for the future.  This logical inconsistency is exactly what makes me wonder if they do really have a long-term plan.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 7:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Itzuris/Ryan better at SS than Eckstein/Miles
Itzuris is a solid signing, given the alternatives in the market.

Eckstein is better than Izturis offensively but worse defensively, and Eck has become very prone to injury.  Financially, Eck is worse than Itzuris (length of contract, opportunity cost next year and beyond, and return on investment NOW vs. the last three years).  

No other free agent shortstops in this year's weak crop is better than Itzuris on balance (offense/defense).

Itzuris/Ryan at shortstop is clearly superior defensively to Eckstein/Miles, and, offensively,  overall, an Itzuris/Ryan platoon is every bit as good as Eckstein or Miles:

OPS VS RHP in 2007:
.751 Eckstein
.704 Miles
.689 Itzuris

OPS VS LHP in 2007:
.863 Ryan
.709 Eckstein
.664 Miles

What you gain with Eck vs. RHP (.062 better in OPS), is offset by what Eck gives up vs. LHP (Ryan is .154 better).

The best things about Itzuris is that Miles will probably be off the team, which is addition by subtraction.  Neither offensively nor defensively does he merit a place on any championship team as a reserve infielder capable of playing SS (compare him to Oquendo, Polanco, even Hector Luna, whose salary was much lower).  If LaRussa gets his way and keeps Miles vs. Ryan, then he will be weakening the team this year and he will be blocking the team's growth for future years.  Miles deserves no place in the Cardinals' present (2008), and at 30, he has no place in their future.  

by CardsWin on Dec 1, 2007 3:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

no lost opportunity cost
i have heard it said numerous times that ryan only projects to be a utility infielder.  but somehow when we give him the starting job its gonna make him the answer to our problems?

that might work with someone that has a great work ethic but from what i've heard about ryan that work ethic just isn't there.

by FutureMan on Dec 1, 2007 4:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ryan's not that
great, but Izturis is worse. He can play SS, but there are mixed reviews on his defense. He has a career .223 EqA. He's like the definition of replacement level. If anyone's a utility infielder or a AAA shortstop, it's him.

by plh903 on Dec 1, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why
Why don't you just say the Cardinals have two SS who are not that good.  Move on, the team is not that great.  Maybe the Cards can make a trade for a minor league SS with up side who is a year or less from the show during the 2008 season.  If so I doubt anyone on this board would be dissappointed to see Brendan Ryan or Cesar Izturis benched.

I don't know why some people think Ryan is good.  Izturis has been in the league for 7 full years.  If Ryan was so good he would have been playing 135 & 158 games in the bigs as a 22 & 23 year old.  I am not saying Izturis is great but he has seemed to hit some kind of wall.  I think you can't call Ryan more of a prospect than Izturis based on age, I would say Izturis has/had more talent than Ryan.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 1, 2007 6:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Value (or lack thereof)
Because in one case you're paying $500k for a replacement-level player, and in the other case you're paying $3M for a replacement-level player.  Izturis clearly isn't going to make or break the team, but the signing is a concern because it suggests that Cards management still has a problem properly valuing players. In other words, this signing doesn't matter very much, but if they continue to do things like this then we'll be sunk.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

tyler greene
where does he fit in, or does he?

by herr28 on Dec 1, 2007 5:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Melvin and Rolen
So he says he hasnt talked to the Cards in weeks..so are we to believe this and think Rolens not going anywhere or is this the constant posturing that teams and coaches do?

Like the Yanks "we wont offer a contract to A rod" only to have it happen...

I wonder How long it will be b4 Miles gets the mIchigan job since today he said he was staying...

I guess only time will tell.

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Dec 1, 2007 9:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know I'm awfully late to the game
but I think you're off on this one LB.  If they're willing to throw 3 million at a veteran shortstop, why not just offer Eckstein arbitration?  If he accepts, fine maybe he's another 2M.  If not, draft picks.

Eckstein probably isn't durable enough to last a whole season so Ryan would still get his 300-400 at-bats (assuming they non-tender Miles, which I am also unconvinced they will do).  Instead, we've brought in someone who is probably just as bad as Aaron Miles for 3M.  Holding par just isn't enough for this team.  The implication that there isn't any other option strikes me as wrong as well.  If the Cardinals want to compete in the next few years, they are going to have to make some trades.  This idea that we couldn't get a near MLB ready SS strikes me as wrong.  This move is completely bland and unimaginative.  

What does Izturis bring over Ryan?  What's the worst outcome to starting Ryan everyday?  We lose 2 more games. . . maybe.  At the end of the day, the point is that Izturis is a replacement level player that we are paying 3M to.  Paying a replacement level player more than league minimum is an intrinsically bad move.

by azruavatar on Dec 1, 2007 9:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well said.
This is a good summary of what several of us have been saying all day.

by apack on Dec 1, 2007 10:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AZ, why is eckstein at $5m to $6m
a better contract than izturis at $3m? given his bad D, eckstein is barely above replacement level; they're both bad contracts, but i don't see one as being better than the other. i also think that if eckstein ends up on the roster, brendan ryan gets a lot less playing time because tony loves eckstein's character and hustle. izturis is marginal enough that brendan ryan might elbow him aside during the season; eckstein could play bad D and have a .640 OPS and tony would still put him out there for 140 games.

i don't disagree w/ your statement --- "Paying a replacement level player more than league minimum is an intrinsically bad move." but to me it's no worse than $6m for an aging, injury-prone, lousy fielder. that's why i don't see any point in getting worked up over this signing. it's terrible, but all the options they were considering were terrible --- and the creative+risky options we'd all like to see them try are not going to happen w/ tony back at the helm.

another issue regarding arbitration --- mozeliak suggested in the p-d that timing was the driving factor. eckstein could --- and surely would --- have sat on the arbitration offer until after the winter meetings. he wouldn't be obligated to accept or decline until december 7, and since he's looking for a multiyear deal he'd probably wait until the last minute --- until after the winter meetings --- and try to get himself a better deal in the interim. the club contends that izturis had other suitors, so they were scared that both eckstein and izturis would sign with other teams during the winter meetings.

by lboros on Dec 2, 2007 7:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The timing thing is interesting
and I guess that I don't totally understand the logic there.  Presumably Mozeliak was worried that Eck would sit on the offer and then not accept after the meetings and they'd have missed out on the best of the worst options at short.  I wouldn't have been devastated by missing out on Izturis just because they were waiting on a response from Eckstein but they're so bound and determined to get a veteran backup and I understand why that would be a point of consideration for the team.

Regarding contracts, Eckstein's defense is bad but Izturis isn't more than a few runs better.  Between the two, I'd rather have Eckstein's better offense than Izturis' < .300 OBP. I sincerely hope that Tony doesn't play Izturis in anything more than a platoon role but I'm not willing to bet on that.

The end decision is a tactical one for me though.  Assuming that both players are going to be about as bad as the other, then offering arbitration opens up the option of getting us draft picks.  If Eckstein accepts, it's not like the extra 2-3M he would cost precludes us from signing anyone else (since there's no one of value on the market).  If he doesn't accept, then we've got another top 100 pick.

I'm not really worked up over this move itself (although I think it's a bad one) but I am concerned that it represents more of the same -- that question, however, is only going to be answered in time.

by azruavatar on Dec 2, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re your last graph ----
"I am concerned that it represents more of the same -- that question, however, is only going to be answered in time."

i think this is the crux of it. if izturis is a sign of things to come, we are in deep doo-doo. some people are leaping to that conclusion prematurely --- and believe me, i can understand the temptation to do that. but i just don't believe that mozeliak is the total idiot he's being made out to be. i think he made a strategic (and defensible) decision to punt on the shortstop position for this season and direct his resources elsewhere. like ev'yone else, i'm waiting for his to show that he is capable of making a sharp, creative roster move --- but he deserves more than 5 weeks to demonstrate that. not every single move can be a "wow" type of move; so far, everything he's done has been pretty uninspiring, but i haven't given up on him just yet. as you say, only time will tell whether there is a method to mo's madness.

by lboros on Dec 2, 2007 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

money is not the issue
honestly, the difference between 3 mil and 500K is negligible in realtion to 100 mil.  3 mil is not going to stop us from signing or trading for anyone else this offseason.

by FutureMan on Dec 1, 2007 11:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

On J-Rod
What a disappointing turn of events. This is just another example of TLR's ignorance crushing a career. J-Rod was clearly a valuable asset to the Cardinals. He would've made an excellent platoon partner with Encarnacion.

I get he was injured in 2007... but he's still better than Juanenc for a tenth of the cost.

by VORP is too nerdy on Dec 2, 2007 12:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wish J-Rod well.
He's not so young anymore, and it's just really unfortunate that he ended up with the Yankees and then the Cardinals.  Those teams are notoriusly hard for players to break into the line up.  LaRussa really soured on him, and then he ended up hurt most of the season at AAA.  Too bad.  I hope some other team gives him a shot at the 4th outfielder spot.

by jillsinmo on Dec 2, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the memories
ECK & JRod

goodbye & good luck

except if you play against the Cards

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 2, 2007 2:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Avatar_small
How to EASILY make tables for Fanposts
1753738656_110919ebe9_o_small
2010 Hot Stove Post #1: CHONE hitter projections

Recent FanPosts

Arch_small
Number 15
Small
Some thoughts on Holliday (and potential replacements)
Small
Ok let me try this again...
Knights-09_small
Disenchanted Blue Jays Fan Looking For A New Team
Painterlance_small
The Holliday Dilemma (Rocks Fan Perpsective)
375830-r1-025-11_011_small
Anybody read Bob Gibson's new book yet?
Flanders_small
Yadi2first
Small
40 Man Question..

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Kid-a-bear_small the red baron