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The Cards' Pedroia

I think by now we're all familiar with what a great season Dustin Pedroia had this year. He'll likely be named the AL Rookie of the Year soon because of his .317/.380/.442 season. He also received quite a bit of publicity for some big hits in Boston's playoff run. Despite a rocky start he finished quite well this postseason (.283/.348/.483). He hits at the top of the Red Sox order, plays a pretty good 2B, and earns the major league minimum salary ($380,000; considerably less than the $2 million earned by his BACKUP, Alex Cora).

Today I'm going to make the case that Jarrett Hoffpauir, the Cardinals 2B prospect, is in the same mold as Dustin Pedroia. I want to begin, however, by saying that I do not expect Hoffpauir to ever be the NL Rookie of the Year or an All-Star. I'm not saying that he'll be as good as Pedroia; in fact, I'll argue that Pedroia played a little bit over his head this year for the Sox.

That said, many people have Hoffpauir pegged as a utility player, not a regular 2B, particularly for a contending ballclub. Well, there's a lot to like in Hoffpauir and it's my opinion that he can be a starting 2B for the Cards, if not in '08, then certainly in '09 (assuming the Cards could figure out some way to deal w/ Kennedy).

I got the idea for this quest from an article posted at Baseball Prospectus by Marc Normandin. The profile of Pedroia explained Pedroia's background and why he was successful. Hoffpauir displays many of the same characteristics that Normandin lauds in this article and helped to convince me that Hoffpauir can be much more than a cheaper Aaron Miles.

This week AZ and Erik have been counting down their top 25 prospects in the Cards' system. Of Hoffpauir, AZ said

His walk rates haven't changed and they are the key to his success. Walking around 12% of the time pushes his OBP north of .380 and makes him an above average offensive player (relative to position he's even better). ... In the end, I expect him to be an everyday 2B with a .290/.370/.420 line with around 10 HRs.

Erik wrote

Watching Dustin Pedroia make all kinds of plays for the Red Sox this past postseason has got me a little excited about the outlook of seeing Hoffpauir in a big league jersey. No, I'm not crazy enough to say he's equally as good as Pedroia, but they have striking similarities. Hoff gets the most out of his ability despite his size, he rarely strikes out, he takes his fair share of walks, he laces line drives and even shows a little bit of pop from the 2B position, a la Pedroia.

So why all the attention? Why do we have any reason to expect he's more than Aaron Miles?

Normandin,too, lauds Pedroia for his low K rate and the fact that he walks more than he strikes out. He called him "a powerful doubles hitter with excellent plate discipline and control of the zone." In looking at the two players, there are a lot of similarities --certainly many more than just their size (5'9", 165 lbs for Hoffpauir; 5'9", 180 lbs for Pedroia). It's true that Pedroia moved through the system much more quickly than Hoffpauir. Part of that is b/c Hoffpauir seems to struggle initially as he advances, before settling in and being successful, and part of that seems to me to be organizational philosophy - one that, I believe, is changing somewhat with the Cards. Nevertheless, Hoffpauir is now about 1 ½ to 2 years behind Pedroia, despite both being drafted and beginning pro ball in 2004. (Pedroia was 20; Hoffpauir 21).

Thanks to the fact that baseball reference has now added a section on the minors, I was able to compare Pedroia's and Hoffpauir's numbers coming up through the minors. The key similarities are included below.

Year Player Age Level OBP OPS XBH% 2B+3B BB% K% BB/K
2004 Pedroia 20 A .474 1.034 30 5 10.5 5.3 1.98
2004 Hoffpauir 21 A .363 .792 42 21 10.9 7.9 1.38
2005 Hoffpauir 22 A .376 .795 27 17 8.2 5.5 1.49
2004 Pedroia 20 A+ .417 .940 36 11 10.2 3.1 3.29
2005 Hoffpauir 22 A+ .346 .656 19 11 12.3 10.0 1.23
2005 Pedroia 21 AA .409 .917 35 21 11.4 8.8 1.30
2006 Hoffpauir 23 AA .344 .699 28 20 11.9 9.0 1.32
2007 Hoffpauir 24 AA .420 .847 33 16 11.2 7.8 1.44
2005 Pedroia 21 AAA .356 .738 29 10 10.0 7.1 1.41
2006 Pedroia 22 AAA .384 .807 29 32 9.9 5.6 1.77
2007 Hoffpauir 24 AAA .394 .810 25 10 13.1 9.5 1.38

OK, first some of the differences - yes, as I said, Hoffpauir was older at every level than Pedroia was. Yes, in most cases his slugging % was lower than Pedroia's. (I'm not sure some of that can't be chalked up to the pitching-friendly Florida State League, however.) But Marc Normandin said that Pedroia's success was attributable to his low K rate, the fact that he walks more than he strikes out, and the fact that he is more than just a singles hitter.

You should notice that, at almost every level, Hoffpauir's walk rate is higher than Pedroia's. Early on, his K rate was as well but they were roughly the same at AA and, considering that Hoffpauir seems to struggle early on with a new level before adjusting, I suspect that, if he spends some time at AAA this season, they will even out at AAA as well. Their extra-base hit rates are almost identical, as well. It's true that Hoffpauir's is slightly lower, but it's clear that Hoffpauir is more than just a singles hitter as it has been 25% or higher every year but 1 in pro ball.

Finally, notice the BB/K. Hoffpauir's compares favorably to Pedroia's and he has walked more than struck out every year in pro ball. Incidentally, Kennedy's minor-league BB/K was .54 and Miles' was .77. So, according to Normandin, Hoffpauir seems to possess the same characteristics that have made Pedroia a successful hitter at the major-league level.

ZIPS projects Hoffpauir to have a .246/.318/.332 line this year. Not great, to be sure, but Pedroia struggled out of the gate when initially brought up to the majors as well (.191/.258/.303 in 89 AB's in 2006). It's a small sample size, to be sure, but Pedroia figured it out. Hoffpauir will likely struggle early on but he'll figure it out also. BTW, ZIPS projects Kennedy (.251/.310/.332) and Miles (.268/.311/.334) to be about the same or worse than Hoffpauir anyway. It's not like the Cards have several better options.

The other person that Hoffpauir reminds me of somewhat is Placido Polanco. Like Hoffpauir, most didn't think Polanco would be more than a utility player and that was his primary role until almost forced into the lineup every day. Once he was traded to the Phillies for Scott Rolen, he became a starter by default and managed to keep hitting so much that no one could keep him out of the lineup. Like Hoffpauir, Polanco is small and doesn't strike out often. However, he doesn't walk often either and only 3 times in his professional career (minors and majors) did he have a full-season walk total that eclipsed his strikeouts. Polanco's minor league XBH% was 19% and in the majors it has been 23%. There's no reason to think that Hoffpauir doesn't have the potential to become the same type of hitter that Polanco is.

I should add here that Pedroia played above his projections in '07 and probably will come back to earth slightly in '08. He slugged .442 this year and hadn't done that since AA. Additionally, he was sensational at home (.351/.410/.502), in friendly Fenway, whose Green Monster probably helped contribute to his 39 doubles. He was pretty ordinary away from Fenway and Hoffpauir wouldn't have such a friendly home park. He would, however face weaker pitchers in the NL and if Hoffpauir was able to even post the same OPS that Pedroia posted on the road (.729), it would be a 62 point improvement over the feckless OPS posted by Cardinals' 2nd basemen in '07 (.667).

Kennedy will get and should get every chance to win the 2B job in the spring. After all, the Cards are on the hook for his contract for the next 2 years at $3.5 M in '08 and $4 M in '09. They can't unload that contract after his craptastic '07. Miles, on the other hand, should go away. There's no need to pay him $1 M or more to be worse than Hoffpauir when Hoff will earn the minimum. While Hoffpauir may never be Rookie of the Year, we have every reason to believe that he could become an average major-league 2B, at least until he reaches his 2nd year of arbitration - when his salary may compel the Cards to look for a better option. In the meantime, however, he offers an inexpensive 2B whose upside should be seen as similar to Pedroia's or Polanco's. But we'll never know if we don't stick him in there.

Oh, one more thing -- thanks for the compliments last week. Take an extra hour tonight to enjoy VEB!

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Another great post.
Thanks HC.

I am all in favor of the youth movement.  Let's see what some of these kids got in '08!

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 4, 2007 1:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great Post, But
I agree with most of what you say, although it does seem a bit of a stretch that Hoffpauir will be as good as Pedroia.  I'm not sure that Pedroia 2008 will be as good as Pedroia 2007.

What I don't understand is why so many are ready to cut loose Aaron Miles.  You have to have a plan B, and from what I can see, it isn't in Memphis.  Not saying that Miles should be starting, but he is what he is - an adequate infield utility player who can play 3 infield positions when someone goes down with injury.  You need players like that.

I agree with argument that you don't want old veterans blocking the kids from playing.  At SS for example, now that Edgar is off the market, Brendan Ryan seems our best alternative.  That could change later when players are non-tendered, etc., but for now I would like to see Ryan play.

But later on, if he doesn't want to play the game right and keeps blowing off take signs, or the pitchers figure him out and he can't get his BA over .220, you are going to need someone like Miles on the bench.

by Anteus on Nov 4, 2007 7:52 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I thought
I was pretty careful to say that I didn't expect Hoffpauir to be as good as Pedroia.  Perhaps that point didn't come through.  But even if he's not, he can be a productive 2B earning next to nothing for 3-4 years.

And Miles -- career OBP of .323, career OPS of .680, horrible defense, restricted to 2B b/c of his defense, his BA is as hollow as it gets.  Oh yeah, he earned $1M last year and is arbitration-eligible again this year.  His salary will rise.

If Ryan's not the SS, Ryan should take Miles' place.  If Ryan is the SS, we need to find someone else who can be better than Miless, play more than 1 position, for cheaper.  It won't be that hard.

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 8:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's an honor!
Welcome to the site Mr. LaRussa!

(just kidding!)

by RedbirdRay on Nov 4, 2007 8:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Got Me
And I thought I was being subtle.

by Anteus on Nov 4, 2007 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hoff's projections
"In the end, I expect him to be an everyday 2B with a .290/.370/.420 line with around 10 HRs."

Wow. A .790 OPS out of Hoffpauir would be fantastic IMO given what we have been exposed to at 2B over the past few years.

by Hungry Jack on Nov 4, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just can't figure it out???
Why are there so many people that continue to refer to Miles as "adequate"?

He shouldn't be in the major leagues, period.  He is woefully "inadequate" in every facet of the game.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 4, 2007 11:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post.
     Getting younger is a must, especially in light of lboro's matrix. The Cards may be stuck with Kennedy, however, for obvious reasons.
     On another note, can anyone confirm that the player to be named in the Pineiro deal was OF Sean
Danielson? I read that in some baseball notes in a Philly paper, but haven't seen it elsewhere. Did I just miss this?

by vinniefromjersey on Nov 4, 2007 8:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes. It was.
The 2007 offseason: Butter? Or Steel?

by the red baron on Nov 4, 2007 6:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Post HC
I looked back to compare these guys' fielding stats.  Pedroia has equally split time between SS and SB, and has been pretty steady. Hoffpauir had a lot of errors in his first three years which surely contributed to holding him back, but he improved dramatically in 07 limiting mistakes both at Springfield and Memphis.

Throughout his years he has turned DP's at a much greater rate than Pedroia.  Don't know to what to assign that.

Unfortunately he's only had a handful of games at SS, so his versatility as a sub infielder is questionable.  With Speez unable to play SS, I can't see tlr letting both Eck and Miles walk.  Not being a switch hitter is another concession that won't help him earn a spot.

Hoffpauir's best shot is to have a great ST, and play well in Memphis while Kennedy shows a return to form and achieves trade value by the deadline.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 8:46 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Miles...
He can't play SS either.
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 4, 2007 11:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

there aren't too many scouting reports
on hoffpauir, it would be interesting to see how they compare in that sense. but i totally agree the peripherals are very similar, and i think after this past season he's certainly more attractive then any other 2B we have right now.

by erik on Nov 4, 2007 9:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff
I agree with almost everything in your post except that next season we should see Hoffpauir in the big leagues.  I'd say let him continue to have success at AAA, and call him up late, or sooner if there's an injury.  

I also expect Adam Kennedy to be much better than he was in '07.  Miles is a worth his $1 million in my opinion.

by qwikimport on Nov 4, 2007 9:03 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with Anteus
on Miles. I think he is a good little hitter that works pitchers and seems to be a good late inning hitter. I can think of five or six occassions in which the Cards needed a run or two in the late innings when facing tough pitching and Miles got his hit but the big guys (including Pujols) couldn't drive him in. He is adequate (although no more, on defense.) and is a valuable utility player that can play semi-regular if needed. He always comes off the bench ready and hits. Hoffpauir should have been on somebody's radar when the Kennedy trade was made. He was on mine, which makes me more upset with the Kennedy signing. A three year contract for a 30 year old second basemen coming off a down year in which the Angels expressed no intrest in resigning and as far as I know, no one else was hot after, just never made  sense to me. And especially after being so stubborn about paying to solve the second base broblem for the last four years. It was an invitation to find youself in the dilemma the Cards are in now. Hopefully Kennedy can rebound and the only damage could be to a good prospect in Hoffpauir. I did not intend to heap so much praise on Miles in these comments but I have seem so much abuse leveled at him on this blog that I felt he needed some defending.

by ridgesee on Nov 4, 2007 9:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

On the Other Hand...
I've been trying to think of different scenarios that could get Hoffpauir a spot on the roster.  And I had thought that versatility might count against him.  But Miles never played SS before tlr gave him that chance, and he is well below average there.  Hoffpauir could easily match that performance, and just might even look respectable.  His range is above average.

I agree that while the revolving door era at 2B may have been frustrating to some, with 1B SS & 3B locked, it was a good place to play the infield bench.  And the short tenures of Wommack and Grudz were great.  Miles surprised while Spivey crashed and burned.  They should have re-upped Grudz and didn't, then turned around and locked Kennedy for 3 yrs and looked silly.  So now what?

A. If Eck walks (my choice) and Ryan gets his shot, I can't see tlr going into ST without Miles aboard. So Hoffpauir goes to Memphis.

B. If Eck gets signed and Ryan plays utility-sub, "Maybe" Hoffpauir gets the chance to beat Miles out for the back up roll and platoons with Kennedy.

C. Or maybe Miles finds a chance to earn a starting spot on somebody else' roster and doesn't even risk loosing his bench role to a rookie.

I can't even hazard the odds these scenarios.  Anybody?

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 9:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you on Miles
He is a decent 25th man to have on a roster.  At $1M he is an acceptable, tho not ideal back-up middle infeilder.  It isn't his fault that the second basemen have sucked so hard the past few years he has become the defacto starter.  He has just been overexposed.

Still, you have to admit he isn't an ideal backup.  He defense is subpar and despite the decent average, his hitting (OPS) is below average.  Most clubs have good feilding no-hit middle infeilders as backups.  On the other hand, Miles is a poor-feilding hit-a-little guy.  Given that he will probably make $1.5M over the minimum, teh Cardinals would be best served to find someone else to do the job.  

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 4, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Things will get
reallly interesting if the Cards don't (or can't) re-sign Eckstein... there is no legit, every-day option at SS after Brendan Ryan. Can Hoffpauir play SS?

Agreed, the Cardinals need to get "younger"; however, I think Kennedy will "aggress to the mean" (he'll hit better in 2008) and is most likely the every-day 2B. AK was once a shortstop, but I doubt the Birds would move him over there.

Agreed, if you've got Eckstein, you really no longer need Miles... but if'n ya don't have Eck, Miles is a good "extra" guy to have.

Solid analysis, HC! Lessee wha' hoppens from here on out...

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 4, 2007 9:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

AK at SS was even worse than Miles
FP was .959 and .918 in 98 & 99 respectively.  He never was put there again until tlr tried it once last year for just two innings.
Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 10:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

SS
>>Can Hoffpauir play SS?<<

Yeah, this is my deal as well with making Hoffpauir the utility middle IF.  I have no problem with keeping Hoffpauir over Miles as Miles can't really play SS either but TLR stubbornly puts him there on occasion nonetheless.  Then you have the switch hitting factor ... TLR wants his utility IFers to be switch hitters (ala Spiezio and Miles).  I'd love to get Hoffpauir into the mix at 2B but, given he can only play 2B and TLR's rigid coaching tendencies, I just don't see it happening initially.  I would bet Hoffpauir starts the season at Memphis but would hope they call him up if Kennedy or Miles go on the DL (would not be surprised if Kennedy gets injured again).  One thing that is attractive about Hofpauir is his potential to develop into a cheap leadoff hitter, something this team needs.

by jjray on Nov 4, 2007 10:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good Post
Hopefully there are people in the front office/dugout who see solutions like this instead of paying more for a "veteran" who can do the same things.
As lboros stated earlier, the chances of the Birds competing this year are slim.  Why not try some in-house solutions?

SD

by sdangler on Nov 4, 2007 10:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Size?
HC you stated that they are comparable in size.  Pedroia is 15 lbs heavier than Hoffpauir.  15lbs of muscle is a lot of weight.  Hoffpauir would have to gain 10% his body weight to match him in size. I think the extra strength that Pedroia has, definitely helps his slugging percentage.  And without a scouting report if Pedroia carries the weight better it suggests that he is a little better athelete overall.  For a wild comparison, if Hoffpauir could gain 10% of his height he would be 6'3"...  

by BigJawnMize on Nov 4, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't compare height and weight like that...
I know it isn't exactly what you were getting at, but weight is porportional to volume.  Volume is (roughly) porpotional to height cubed.  A guy with the same build who is 15% Heavier would be 4-5% taller typically.  In other words, if Hoffpauir had the same build as he has now (but was taller) and weighed as much as Pedroia, he'd be 5'11".
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 4, 2007 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

May I jump in
Here is the one reason it is a bad idea to bring up Hoffpauir as a back up player.  

He struggles early.  He just will not get enough AB's as a back up to get him going and get his confidence up.  The reason Pedroia did so well was that Francona told him to not worry about production because he is playing everyday no matter what.  See Hoffapuir is not going to do very well as a spot starter and it is obvious based on his slow starts.  At this point if you want to bring Hoffpauir up he needs to be the starter and you need to decide if you want Kennedy or Miles as a back up.  

The other thing I see a lot is people saying we must keep Kennedy due to the fact we owe him money.  At this point that really means nothing as basbeall contract are sunk costs meaning once you make the deal you can't not pay the guy.  Kennedy is going to be paid by STL even if he is on another team.  No one will pick up his full contract.  It is not a big deal either, as you have to move dead weight at times.  If Hoffpauir is good then Kennedy is just blocking his development.  The Diamondbacks did this with Russ Ortiz.  They cut him despite owing him $$ because he was blocking other pitchers who could pitch just as well as him.

I think if Hoffpauir is to make the squad it should be as a starter, as I do not see him excelling as a back up.  Also I would rather Keep Miles as a back up as he is more flexible than Kennedy.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 4, 2007 11:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

But Kennedy's splits are pathetic
So Hoffpauir could platoon until he earns the spot full time.  The odds of Hoffpauir earning the job full time straight out of ST are zero.

Likewise Kennedy will get more AB's too see if he can reestablish himself, either for the Cards or as a trade chip.

You have to believe that tlr will want Miles around if eck is gone and Ryan is starting at SS (and unavailable to sub 2B).  I have to believe that the chance that both Eck and Miles are not there in 08 is also next to zero.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correct
You are right!  Kennedy will get plenty of chances to lose the job.  

I am for Ryan, Kennedy, Miles, and Hoffpauir as our MI next season.  The scary thing is we don't have a guy who you want to play SS for more than 20 games if Ryan gets hurt or just flat out stinks.  It is hard to imagine but our MI could be worse without Eck.  

But I am fine with waiting until 09 to get a real SS.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 4, 2007 12:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Real SS in 09?
And who might that be?  What if Mo gets unnerved by the prospects and goes ahead and signs Eck for 2 years? Then tlr also wants to keep Miles through ST again.  Deja vu all over again.
Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There aren't enough
spots on the 25 man roster to have 4 middle infielders, especially since none also plays 3rd.  There's merit to keeping Miles and allowing Hoffpauir the chance to play every day at AAA if he doesn't win the 2B job in the spring.  But there's also merit to bringing him up and playing him 2-3 days per week instead of Miles.  There's certainly merit in allowing Hoffpauir to try to win the job in the spring.

BTW, color me skeptical but I'd say it's no better than 50/50 that Ryan is the starting SS.  If he's not, he becomes the backup MI, thus rendering Miles utterly useless.

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So if you have Eck (or other SS Starter)
with Ryan backing up.  Plus Kennedy at 2B, how do you bring up Hoffpauir for 2-3 days a week without having four MI's on the roster?

Maybe Ryan and Hoff can split apartments.  Is there a limit to how many trips they can make between Memphis and STL?  It surely isn't practical.

Maybe Memphis will have a good season to confirm the rising talent.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You wouldn't, of course
but if Hoffpauir can beat out Kennedy in the spring, the job should be his.

The point of the post wasn't exactly "Start Hoffpauir at 2B on day 1" as much as it was "We have a real keeper here in Hoffpauir."  I think he's legit -- not as a backup, but as a starter and I think that most people see him as being only a backup -- like Miles.  IMO, they're simply wrong.

It wouldn't surprise me if he was better than Kennedy in the spring and certainly by the All-Star break.  We'd have to figure out what to do w/ Kennedy b/c I haven't got the faintest idea.  But Hoffpauir will be better than Kennedy -- and soon.

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 2:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

this was meant to reply to
birds on the bat above -- I could've sworn I hit "reply to". Oh well!

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on Hoffpauir, but you did say
that Miles should go away. (and I would agree with that also).  I figure the chance that both Eck and Miles are gone before ST is zero.  If Eck is gone, and Ryan takes SS, then Hoff could get the chance to  beat out Miles and plattoon with Kennedy.  Since Kennedy's splits are so bad, Hoff could easily end up with more playing time.

Playing Ryan-Hoffpauir-Kennedy could be fun. I fear MoRussa will have other ideas.  

Thanks again HC for a great post.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Chances are zero
I disagree with that. The P-D article, We Need to Evolve, suggests that Eck is heading for the free-agent market, so he's gone if anyone puts a multi-year contract on the table—likely.

The Cards have made it clear that they don't see Ryan as an everyday shortstop, so he figures as the backup middle-infielder.

It looks like the Cards plan to bring someone new in to play at short, since the only in-house options are Barden (not likely) and Miles (no chance). I like the idea of Ben Zobrist. The only scenario I see where Miles gets tendered a contract is if Ryan is involved in a trade for Zobrist, which would make some sense for Tampa.

by liam on Nov 4, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Zobrist also
and think the infield would be pretty good w/ him and Ryan -- one wins the job and the other serves as the backup. Or, if one really stinks, maybe Hoffpauir makes the roster out of spring.

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
I touted Zobrist in a diary a few weeks back.
"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 4, 2007 11:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Cardinals are convinced
that Ryan isn't an everyday shortstop, I doubt that they're going to give Zobrist a shot.  He's had several chances to secure the job in Tampa and hasn't put it together.  I like his skillset but he's Anthony Reyes as a shortstop (great minor league pedigree which hasn't rolled over to the majors).  

On top of that, Zobrist is an offensively minded shortstop whose just average defensively.  If the Cardinals can't secure top notch pitching, the other way to improve at run prevention is to improve the defense.

by azruavatar on Nov 4, 2007 5:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW
His lowest MiLB OBP was .400 (in a small sample) and he out OBP'ed Ryan by 94 points over their minor league careers.

And some ZiPS projections:

Zobrist  .252 .341 .362
Eckstein .289 .348 .356
Ryan     .265 .315 .351
Miles    .268 .311 .334
Barden   .265 .310 .430

Azruavatar's comment that he's reputedly only average defensively is news to me—I've heard him described as "big and rangy" (in BP 2006) and an excellent fielder.

by liam on Nov 5, 2007 1:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We can cut Kennedy if we have better options
I agree with your statement in the initial post that Kennedy should be given every opportunity to WIN the job in spring training.  He shouldn't be given any kind of incumbent pass and we should feel no obligation to fit him in just because we likely flushed a few million down the toilet after him.

But what this post further convinces me of is that we should be in the market for a second basemen at least as much as a shortstop.  Like everything else, we'll probably have to wait until '09 for any kind of impact player.  

But if we've got $10-$15 mil to fill out the '08 roster while we wait for contracts to expire, doesn't some of it HAVE TO go to the middle infield?  Can we really field a roster of pick-3 from Kennedy, Miles, Ryan & Hoffpauir?  I like the young guys and would love to see them get a shot, but there's not a single guy there I can point to and say "this is an everyday major league ballplayer."

by bgodar on Nov 4, 2007 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If this post convinces you
that we need to be in the market for a 2b, then I didn't do my job very well. Hoffpauir can be the guy. Most are expecting Kennedy to rebound somewhat next season -- who knows? They're probably right, to a degree. But if he doesn't, Hoffpauir can be the guy. Maybe it takes until 2009, but Hoffpauir can be the guy. In my view, we absolutely DO NOT need to be in the market for a 2b. We have our 2b for the next 4-5 years (maybe beginning in '09). It's Jarrett Hoffpauir.

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you've made a great case...
for Hoffpauir.  I believe that he could be the guy, just like Ryan could be the guy at short (or 2nd).  And as you note, it's probably even more likely he's the guy in '09 than in '08.

But unfortunately, I think the odds are pretty good that either Hoff or Ryan won't develop enough to remain viable options.  Maybe Kennedy will rebound, but he and Miles were well below not just league average, but replacement level this season.

I don't feel like we can be confident that a single one of these guys WILL BE a major league quality middle infielder in '08.  I'm not suggesting we try to sign an impact player at either position - I think that's been documented as not feasible in '08 - but we've got to burn a little cash to fill out the roster.  Is there any position that needs filling out more than this one?

by bgodar on Nov 7, 2007 9:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if i were gm (hey it's sunday afternoon!)
lots of good theory re hoff, miles, etc,., but its easier for me to reduce the universe of options by looking relative to last year's ST team and what distribution we will have out of ST:
12 pitchers (piniero in, wells out; the rest compete, including reyes)
8 regulars (incl: duncan, ank for enc, eck, and ak)
1 bu catcher (recall marrero so get outfield too?)
4 reserves

really need balance for the 4 remaining spots, so among these folks
spiezio (switch, if or of), so done deal (literally)
miles (switch, 2b, ss?)
ludwick (all of)
ryan (ss, 2b, 3b)
hoff (2b)
mather (of)

i'd keep the first 4 and put hoff at AAA and ask him to play a little ss.  mather ticketed for AAA to start.

why:  we are basically poor in terms of discretionary income, so will need to take some chances. rather than take chances on players outside the system (likely to be retreads), id suggest basing decisions on the following:

  1. sign eck, if possible for something close to current salary, 2 years max (if not let him go).
  2. hope eck and/or ak play themselves into a state of increased value early on. if so, trade one or both of them.  better than signing uribe!
  3.  make sure hoff plays everyday and builds comfort and versatility.
  4. all other AAs who moved to AAA late in the year start at AAA.
  5.  i would not trade any prospects right now other then reyes, and then only if we get serious quality.  if not, we risk him coming around (keep showing him tape of of game 1, 06 WS!).
  6.  i'd trade most any regular (except molina and pujols) for proper value (young potential) as things progress from ST on.
  7.  be hesitant to sign FAs and lose any draft picks.

by sportsman on Nov 4, 2007 2:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow, you call bringing back Eck and Miles
taking chances?  I call that the sum of all fears.  

Taking chances will be playing Ryan-Hoff-Kennedy, and every indication is that we'd be better for it.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A couple of things
In my eye, the best scenario for next season would be a MIF of Ryan at SS, Kennedy and Hoff at 2nd, Eckstein with the White Sox, and Aaron Miles somewhere not named St. Louis.  I could live with Eckstein, Kennedy, and Ryan, as long as Eck's deal is pretty damn cheap and only for 2 years or less.  But I'd rather see him gone, and I'm a huge fan of his.  At this point, even if he's not a good hitter, Ryan is a better athlete and will play a better shortstop, and for cheap.  If his offense is utterly dreadful, then they can address that during the season.  Eckstein will probably cost too much for the player that he is at this point.

I see no reason to keep Miles AT ALL.  The guy is getting paid 1mill+ to be reserve IF who plays a quasi-passable 2nd, a dreadful SS, and sort of stands over at 3rd if you need someone over there once and awhile.  He has one skill: he can slap a few singles here and there.  Worst case scenario is that Hoffpauir takes that role, hits for a lower average, does a better job picking up walks, hits a few more doubles, and does an equally poor job standing around at 3 infield positions...all for 600,000 dollars less.  

We're stuck w/ Kennedy.  He should be given priority in ST.  If he hits the way he has most of his career, he's an acceptable fellow to have at 2nd.  If he tanks again, then you have Hoff or Ryan, or even Barden or Spiezio to plug in over there in an absolute emergency.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2007 4:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hoff vs. Pedroia
The question here is athleticism.  I don't know all that much about Hoffpauir other than that he's a pretty good OBP guy and has shown some double power.  Offensively, that's more or less what Pedroia profiles as too...But the big difference is on defense.  Pedroia gets a lot of credit for "scrappiness," but he's also pretty quick, has decent speed, and is pretty strong.  If Hoff has these characteristics too, than a poor man's Pedroia isn't a bad long-term profile for him.  I could live with that playing 2nd in 08 or 09.  But again, I really don't know that much about Hoffpauir...Any help for me out there?

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2007 4:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Do you mean defensively?
because if you're including offense, the entire story gives you plenty of info about Hoffpauir.  

Defensively, his career (minor-league, of course) range factor is 4.92, which would be about middle of the pack in MLB.  Other minor-league defensive #'s are hard to come by.  Just for reference, Orlando Hudson's range factor last year was 4.91.  He had 23 errors in AA, but a .983 FPct. last year -- again, in the middle of the pack for MLB 2B.  He should be fine, not stellar.  As for offensively, I think there's plenty of info in the main post.

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, defense
Sounds like he'd be average at worst, and after watching Miles for two seasons, I can live with average at worst!  Hell, honestly as long as the guy isn't a post and plays a tolerable defense and can put up a 750+ OPS at 2nd base I'd be thrilled to have the guy...And I think based on what he's done in the past he's certainly capable of pulling that off.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2007 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

While Pedroia is only 4.49 RFg at 2B MLB
and was 4.62 at 2B Minor.  So Hoff may be quicker than your Pedroia. (Ref. Miles is 4.45, Kennedy 4.54)

Bring him on.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 4, 2007 5:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope so!
And MY Pedroia?  I hardly own him, I detest just about every thing Red Sock other than Fenway itself, and he's not my pal or my BFF or whatever the kids are saying these days.  I was merely pointing out my observations of Pedroia and commenting that I didn't know much about Hoffpauir beyond his stats.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 4, 2007 8:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gm and risk
guess i need to define risk.  risk for the cards top to bottom is to NOT find out if we are drafting, developing, and promoting draftees who can be above average ML players, ie, are luhnow and his methods going to be capable of putting us on a draft and develop path better, not comparable with, let's say, cleveland?  only way to do this is to both keep our draftees, but also to exchange our veterans for younger players from other organizations upper management believes to be everyday major leaguers (at a minimum).  right now eckstein may go elsewhere and we get a pick--fine. ak will get us nothing, so no point in not giving him a chance in ST to improve his value.  if you are going to dump his salary, doesn't matter when.  hard to imagine his value falling below present.  

rule V/minor l free agent, just another example of how hard it is to do better than the club letting the player go.  who takes card free agents, much less succeeds with them?  how have our evals gone with rule v/minor league free agents, aka, hector luna?

as you can tell, my issue is that to compete, we have to do BETTER in the front office and with the draft having  a definite crapshoot component, only way near term is to get picks and move them along asap.  

who knows, maybe things will get Mo better before ST, but I don't favor selling much, if any, of the farm to try.  call me unrealistic, but i think the cards have a good chance to compete and win in the central without signing high health risk guys like schilling and instead applying those dollars to more scouting and development in asia and latin america.  i know luhnow speaks spanish, but who speaks japanese or korean?

by sportsman on Nov 4, 2007 5:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Trade for Tejada
Why don't we sign Schilling (who should perform better in a slightly pitchers park and in the NL Central) at whatever price up to $15M he wants, and then make a trade to get a shortstop who can also be that power bat: Miguel Tejada.

Tejada has been unhappy in Baltimore for a long time.  The Orioles need to reduce payroll and get younger.  We could get rid of Reyes and Thompson and maybe a prospect.  We could even look at eating half of Rolen's salary to trade him and open some salary.  

We need another bat who is a serious threat and could protect Pujols.  We also need a SS. We could have Miles and Ryan play 2B (I've lost faith in Amanda Kenneday), and we'd actually have a pretty good looking hitting lineup.  With Schilling in the starting rotation, Wain, Blooper, Piniero, and Mulder/(or servicable journeyman), we should be able to win the NL Central, and make a deep run in the playoffs with Schilling, Wain, and Carp as our front 3.

by BWDus on Nov 4, 2007 8:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What's the point though?
Posts like this are almost like ones saying the Cardinals should sign A-Rod or trade for Burnett. It's not going to happen.

We know Hoff won't be considered for the 2b job. He probably won't even make the team. If the Cardinals viewed him as a major league caliber player, they would have called him up last year.

And even if by some miracle he does, it will be another Brednan Ryan scenario, he'll end up in Tony's doghouse for things like "smiling too much".

It's another year of Kennedy at 2b. Just have to hope he bounces back. If Miles won't be the backup, I'm sure Cairo will be. (I guess Ryan will be the other backup infielder)

by DiscoJer on Nov 4, 2007 8:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry
that this post didn't meet your level of specifications.  I just didn't feel that devoting a day's thread to, "Tony sucks; The team sucks; He's never going to play anyone except Kennedy and Cairo" was a worthy endeavor.  Perhaps I should run next Sunday's post through you to insure you approve.

And the point (if you had read it, you would know) is to debunk the idea that exists among many Cards' fans that Hoffpauir will never amount to anything more than a utility player.  Maybe in your mind this is irrelevant, but his peripherals are all in line w/ those demonstrated by Pedroia when he was in the minors.  He has tremendous plate discipline, a low K rate, and enough pop to hit for extra bases.

None of us know what will be done, but Hoffpauir should be given a chance to win the 2B job -- this spring and beyond.  Presumably, the only insight you find valuable is one that beats up on the organization and simply regurgitates what has been done in the past, rather than making a cogent argument for what should be done in the future.  

And, BTW, I guess in your world the Cards don't view Colby Rasmus as a major-leaguer, since they didn't call him up last year, huh?  And Hoffpauir may not end up in Tony's doghouse, the way "Brendan" Ryan did at one point, as his minor-league numbers are indicative of more success at the major-league level.  

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 8:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hoffpauir has shown the ability
to draw walks in the minors and the ability has steadily increased. He drew 3 yesterday in the AFL. That alone should make him the most probable best 2B selection.

by ridgesee on Nov 4, 2007 9:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very good
I thought the post was very good Houstoncardinal!!!  I am one of the people who said I thought Hoffpauir was just going to be a back up level player.

Thanks for breaking down the minor league carrers of both.

Obviously I think the thing Pedroia has over Hoffpauir is he has slightly more pop than than Hoffapuir due to his bigger size.  He also doesn't have a guy named AK blocking him.  Like I said earlier I don't believe Miles is blocking Hoffpauir despite all the Miles bashing. I am kind of sick of the Miles bashing, as it is not needed or well thought out.  AK did not preform at all.  And he is the one with the big contract that STL needs to view as a sunk cost and if he sucks he needs to be gone.  Miles is a better back up option than Hoffpauir due to the fact he is slightly more versitile.  

All in all I think our MI situation sucks.  We just have no impact players in the middle.  Look at this list and you will see no one who makes you truly excited.  If Hoffapauir excites you it is just an idication of how bad or minor leagues are.

Barden    (doesn't excite me)
Eck   (like him but he needs to go)
Miles  (ok, but we could do better)
Hoffpauir  (who knows.  only excites me b/c he is new)
Ryan  (not too exciting.  Not a high ceiling)
Kennedy  (wow I hated his 3 year deal. not letting me down)

by ICbirdfan on Nov 4, 2007 9:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Forget who was rehired as manager?
It was La Russa. You can kiss all these plans for Ryan that have been put fourth. If he don't hit..he's back to Memphis.

by ridgesee on Nov 4, 2007 8:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
Well yes that is true.  It's not like he is Omar Vizquel on defense.  It's not like the Cardinals will let him hit .243.  If he is the starting SS next year he will have to hit.

Our Middle Infield is not stellar.  I said it above, we have the most average middle infield in baseball.  I mean all the guys are so similar it's not even funny.  No one is a "can't" miss type guy with tons of upside.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 4, 2007 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

HC, I like this post, I've been thinking about
Hoffpauir because he actually jumped a couple of levels and kept his bat.  I can't remember where I saw it, but someone wrote an article about potential Rule 5 steals-and his name was on the list "if the Cardinals were foolish enough to leave him unprotected."  This writer thought he had the potential to be the next Dan Uggla, and I wish I could direct you to where I saw it......I didn't know he had been in the system long enough to be rule 5'd. It seems like he has the potential to be a late bloomer, and I'd hope the Cardinals would take advantage of that.

by jillsinmo on Nov 4, 2007 9:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Uggla
Wow!  I would like that, but I don't see him putting up 20 HR like Uggla.  Ugla is 2 inches taller 35 pounds heavier.  But if he could produce I would like it.  

Our MI used to be considered the teams strenght but that went down the drain when Edgar and Grudz left.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 4, 2007 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Glad you remembered that
where were you last night? Here it is -- at BP. I read this as well and had forgotten about it.

Here's what Bryan Smith has to say:

You can probably trust that the Cardinals won't open next season with a middle infield of Brendan Ryan and Adam Kennedy, so if they exercise as many back-up options as possible, Hoffpauir will be on their 40-man roster. It would be a good decision, as Hoffpauir is an outstanding contact hitter who also offers good patience and a little pop. With experience at third base and shortstop he'd be a great asset on a big league bench, and should the Cardinals not protect him, Hoffpauir would be an early favorite to go towards the top of the Rule 5 Draft.

Great catch, Jill!

by chuckb on Nov 4, 2007 9:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ohh.....I'm so excited! Something good
came out from all of the time I spend in front of the computer.

by jillsinmo on Nov 4, 2007 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They've done this before
going into spring training with a "competition" for starting middle infield spots.  I'd be completely fine with a middle infield of Kennedy, Ryan, and Hoff next year.  If it's obvious during ST that it's not working out, then make a Tony Womack-style trade.

Either way, I can't imagine any of those 3 guys being worse than Aaron Miles over the course of a season, and at least Ryan and Hoff have at least Eckstein-like upside on offense, with better defense.  I also don't see the benefit of having Miles switch hit when you have a lefty at 2B (Kennedy), Spiezio, and a heavily lefty outfield.

by CardFaninVA on Nov 4, 2007 10:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Outstanding post, houstoncardinal
I'm now very excited about our (hopefully) future second baseman.

Who knows...maybe if we're lucky Mo can arrange it so that Tony has little choice except to have Hoffpauir play with the big club (offer arbitration to Eck, he goes elsewhere, don't re-sign Miles...).

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Nov 5, 2007 4:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

good post, HC
I was exceedingly angry when Hoff didn't get a september callup; what a wasted opportunity last September was.

Anyway 61 comments and no one mentioned the 21yo SS who slugged .472 at springfield this year, and who is currently tearing up the Venezuela Winter League, as an option for SS.  If he coud learn to take a walk, we'd have to at least consider him for 2009+...

'I'd much rather be "happy" than "right", any day.' -- slartibartfast

by SleepyCA on Nov 5, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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