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Still short a shortstop

Well yesterday's thread was quite the discussion as far as our shortstop options.  I'm going to tail off of yesterday's post; I've got another name to add to the mix but I want to set the table first before I bring out the eats.

Let's preface this whole discussion with a slight tangent. I have a confession: I would be the worst GM on the planet. Worse than Dave Littlefield. Worse than Chuck Lamar. Worse than Ed Wade. OK, maybe not worse than Ed Wade. Being a GM is about vastly more than evaluating talent. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at that. What I would fail at miserably would be managing a set of strong-willed, type-A personalities that permeate baseball on the field, in the dugouts and throughout front offices. I asked a teacher in high school to write me a letter of recommendation my senior year. In it he wrote, "[azruavatar] is very intelligent and motivated but also tends to be abrasive and does not work well with others."  Since I'm both abrasive and vindictive, I was quite the problem student for the remainder of my time in that class. The point being that as a GM the ability to work with a sizable number of opinionated people is not something to be overlooked.

I have to wonder then what a GM would do when confronted with the situation that the Cardinals have now. I'm not convinced of Brendan Ryan's ability to play everyday. In fact, I think he's probably more of a nice utility infielder than an everyday player but he's the only current option with upside. Putting aside any speculation as to why, Tony La Russa exhibited a distinct proclivity last year for playing other players at short rather than Brendan Ryan (where's Luis Vizcaino when you need him???). David Eckstein has been testing the free agent waters and seems to be finding them a bit chillier than expected. Let's assume for a moment that the Cardinals offer arbitration and he accepts. Does anyone really wonder who the starting shortstop would be next year? If the Cardinals acquired Cezar Izturis or Jack Wilson, can anyone envision a likelihood where Brendan Ryan gets a sustained opportunity to disprove his doubters.

We'd all like the Cardinals to get younger I think. At the same time, we'd like to see them get better. Bringing in any of the aforementioned options at this point (Eckstein, Izturis or Wilson) doesn't represent a significant improvement and probably isn't the caliber shortstop you'd want on a contending team.  Mozeliak is thus left in a position where he can bring in a stop-gap SS that will be adequate but eminently mediocre. That kind of a move would probably endear him to his manager but it has a cost beyond just the apparent monetary one. There's an opportunity cost to Ryan in some form.  I'm sure that Mozeliak is aware of the likes and dislikes of his manager. His first responsibility is to provide the best roster he can but recognizing that contention probably isn't a likely outcome for the Cardinals this year, looking ahead to the future has to be balanced in as well. Finding a viable alternative to Brendan Ryan both next year and in the future would be ideal.

Premier shortstops don't hit the free agent market often and that's not an option I'd want to rely on if I were Mozeliak. The farm system lacks a slam-dunk option. Tyler Greene blew his knee out at the end of this past season and there were questions about whether he could stick defensively and if his tools would ever translate to an ability to hit for average. Jose Martinez doesn't profile as an everyday shortstop but more of a second baseman or utility player. Pete Kozma is -- at minimum -- 2 years away and more likely 3-4 before he'll be ready to contribute.  Thus, it would appear as if the Cardinals need to swing a trade of sorts or deal with a several years and potentially longer of mediocrity.

The name Ben Zobrist has been bandied about in the past as a trade target and with the Ray's acquisition of Jason Bartlett the possibility snatching away Zobrist would seem to be even more possible. As I was reading the prolific and somewhat varied trade rumors yesterday, something caught my eye.  About a month ago, I vaguely tossed out the idea of targeting Jed Lowrie from the Boston Red Sox system.  He's rumored to be part of the offer the Red Sox have made for Johan Santana so it would appear that the Sox are at least open to moving him. He's currently blocked by Julio Lugo who suffered through a truly terrible 2007 campaign but has another 3 years on his contract. Oscar Tejada is a toolsy SS in the system behind Lowrie, although he's very far removed from being major league ready. Kevin Goldstein ranked Lowrie as the 4th best prospect in the Red Sox system. Here's the good things that Goldstein said about him:

Lowrie is an on-base machine. His approach is highly advanced, as he works the count well, and recognizes which pitches he can drive into the gap. His makeup is off the charts--he's a baseball grinder who plays and practices with an infectious all-out style. Defensively, he's fundamentally sound and features a solid, accurate arm.

Now that's not to say that Jed Lowrie is a guaranteed commodity. There are still questions about whether he'll stay long term at SS and whether he'll reach his ceiling of being a good everyday shortstop. Of course the Red Sox trading Lowrie as part of a Santana package and trading him to the Cardinals are two vastly different things but it's probably worth placing a call.  Glancing over the rest of their top prospect list, I'd wonder if they wouldn't be interested in Bryan Anderson coupled with Tyler Johnson or a power reliever like Chris Perez or Jason Motte. Anderson would become the heir apparent to Varitek and Tyler Johnson would represent a low cost replacement for Javier Lopez (who probably isn't any better than Johnson in terms of talent).

Regardless of what the exact package would look like, trading for Zobrist or Lowrie presents La Russa with two options for SS. All three (Ryan, Zobrist and Lowrie) represent cheap short-term options that could be both an immediate upgrade and a long-term solution compared to their more elderly counterparts. Lowrie had some interesting numbers last year in AA and AAA where he posted a .909 and .850 OPS respectively. Baseball Prospectus translates those numbers to a .805 OPS and a .818 OPS in terms of equivalent major league numbers. Now, whether that's a Zobrist/Lowrie and Brendan Ryan is a pair of options that TLR would be willing to work with, I don't know. My cold, synthetic robot heart doesn't know how to compute factors like that. I'll leave those issues up to my betters (Mozeliak) with the hopes that they can find a palatable option for everyone that isn't just a return of the mediocre status quo.

********

Baseball America releases it's Top Ten Cardinal Prospects online today. The list is compiled by the esteemed Derrick Goold. He'll also be holding a chat over there at 11 a.m. central time.  I'll have a post at Future Redbirds about it sometime in the morning but I'm sure that will be a significant topic of discussion today in these parts as well.

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Same reaction here
Happy that Zobrist should be available.

This also most likely means that Eckstein will most likely be playing 2nd base next season, unless the Angels bring him back.

by liam on Nov 30, 2007 4:44 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i thought Chris Perez
was IZZY's heir apparent to the closer throne?

also if the Cards are not going to keep Anderson, wouldn't it be wise to trade him for a no doubt impact player? you said the guys you listed are not guaranteed to be the SS of the future the Cardinals need. so wouldn't it be foolish to waste a catcher like Anderson on a guy who won't be the player that the Cards need him to be?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 30, 2007 4:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Prefer this approach
of finding a SS in the farm system of another club to compete with Ryan for the job.  tlr would never concede the position to Ryan before ST, but that doesn't mean he absolutely needs to have a vet on the downside to plug in.

I'm happy to hear Mo's line that he doesn't want to get hamstrung at the winter meetings waiting for eck to decide on arbitration.  I don't want to waste another year with eck as a placeholder.

when BA comes out with all of their prospect lists, can someone please identify who on those lists might be left unprotected, and rule 5 available (if any)?

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 30, 2007 6:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Check out here
http://wordpress.com/tag/rule-5-draft/

Look for posts by Erik on that list (since it includes all wordpress blogs)

Specifically here http://futureredbirds.com/2007/11/27/more-rule-5-thoughts/

Erik explores some options that people have left open, in this case the Royals mainly.  Some grade A talent that for some reason wasn't protected, could be a good reason but it is one I don't know of.

by StLHugo on Nov 30, 2007 8:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Hugo
The Bryan Smith article at BP was best yet, but cut short without a subscription.

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6954

When Lubanski's name showed up on veb the other day, I hadn't noticed a link to this source.

Are there any unprotected SS that might be interesting in the rule 5 draft?

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 30, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

...SS for 08'
Grand Baseball Avatar in the Sky, please dont bring Izturis to St Louis! Ever! (I hope that does'nt jinx us, so ignore that if you need to!)

I think guns like Perez and Motte need to stay in the organzation. 60/40 guys that gave us some firepower thrills at Hammons.

I remember a time I had high hopes for Greene, seems not so long ago.

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Nov 30, 2007 6:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

bwahahaha
We signed him.

I suppose to look on the bright side it SHOULD only be one year...and cheap, and he plays good D?

Better than Eck for 4 years?

Does anyone have a list of FA SS for next year?
Ive heard it was a pretty decent list.
I cant find it.

by jealousblues on Nov 30, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I had a feeling..
and it was'nt good, Izturis makes too much sense for the Cardinals....the typical dead bat and a better glove. But as you said...1 year and cheap! Thats a step up in the mindset of the FO.

Where will LaRussa bat him....`10th? Right after the bat boy takes a cut!

Maybe it'll be his career year and he repeats 2004 with fewer at bats from hitting lower and a has little more pop. (JINX)

Trade for Sean Rodriguez! (But please dont call him S-Rod!)

by cardschinmusic on Dec 1, 2007 5:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gambling
change for change's sake makes for interesting reading, but it seems if the cards want to compete for WS titles instead of nl central titles they ned to keep the boys on the farm for the most part and make AAA a competitive proving ground.  if they want to trade anderson because of molina, then it seems wisest to trade for an equivalent prospect at ss or wherever the need is.  boils down to which gamble you want to make, but i agree that the eck is viable as a short term hire to compete and push ryan, but save the money from the other two and put the cash where you can get difference makers (better gamble for establishing high-level competitiveness).  finishing ahead of the cubs is nice (very nice actually), but finding a strategy that will allow us to compete beyond the nl is what is needed.

also, if eck asks for 7-8-9 million in arb, what do you do if he gets it?  arbiters aren't market-based deciders as far as i know, ie, won't the decision will focus more on his past performances, like ws mvp?

by sportsman on Nov 30, 2007 7:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Kozma
Didn't we just learn on Wednesday that Petey Kozma isn't as bad as we all thought he was?  Shouldn't he be availible in 2010?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 30, 2007 8:20 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Kozma
I was going to say, are the Cardinals really looking for a long-term solution at shortstop? If they really believe in Kozma as a number 1 pick would constitute, wouldn't it make more sense to just "plug" the hole until he's ready in 2-3 years? Just an idea, since David Eckstein/Cesar Izturis/Jack Wilson and Jed Lowrie/Ben Zobrist are two fundamentally different philosophies. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that we need to find the shortstop of the future this season - I'd much rather we be targeting the starting pitcher of the future...
http://rockinred.blogspot.com

by rockin the red on Nov 30, 2007 8:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't really block
Even if you consider Kozma as the future, I don't see how finding anyone who can play now blocks him.   The only real block would be a long-term large free agent contract.  

Kozma is probably 2-3 years away.   Someone needs to play in the interim.  While many of us advocate just pluggin in Ryan and giving up on this season anyway, I am sure none of us advocate 3 years of him.

What I a saying is Zorbist already has some marginal times in the bigs.   He would be hitting arbitration years when Kozma arrives.   One of them would then be decent trade bait.

A guy like Wilson would bridge two years.  

A guy who might be major league ready like the Sox kid would give us 2-3 years of very cheap play before a decision would be have to be made...keep the price inflating one or go with the younger longer team controlled kid.

The Zobrist and Lowrie options are great IMO.   They give us very cost considerate fills while giving us future options...all with upside.  

I would prefer the Zobrist option because I really don't want to part with Anderson.  

by RedbirdRay on Nov 30, 2007 8:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's one thing to pencil Rasmus
in as the CF in 2009, since he is so close to the majors.  OTOH, I don't think Kozma, a guy who is at least 2 years away, and as many as 4 years away, should enter into the thinking about a SS now.  If we can land a young potential star SS who can play right now, and who we can hang onto for 5-6 years, I think we should do it, and worry about Kozma when he's actually close to being a major leaguer.  Then, if Kozma works out and we end up with two star SS's in 2011, so what? To me that would be an opportunity, not a dilemma.  I'm interested in Rookie and A-ball players as a glimpse into the future, but there are way too many ways that some 18-year-old's career can be derailed between now and the day he trots onto the field at Busch Stadium.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 30, 2007 10:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Per Baseball America
he's ranked as our 6th best prospect.  I would hope that next year he'd be able to finish the year in AA and the following season in AAA.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 30, 2007 11:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kozma isn't going to jump three levels
next year.  He'll start in Quad Cities and may make it to Palm Beach by the end of year.

by azruavatar on Nov 30, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

20
There's aren't too many 20 year old SSs in AAA.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 30, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He'll start next season at age 20
so, he'd start the 2009 season (age 21) in AA and finish in AAA.

2010, he'll be 22, which would be the first year he would either a)make the MLB team or b)start a season at AAA.

I don't know where you got the 20 year old in AAA.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 30, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting part
I like the part of the article where it says the Rays are interested in finding a LH hitter who can play first base, the outfield, or both.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 30, 2007 8:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
Kazmir for Duncan+Reyes?

by StLHugo on Nov 30, 2007 8:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or
Something like Duncan for Zobrist and Gomes!

by RedbirdRay on Nov 30, 2007 8:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

-1
Umm, no.

by Recon on Nov 30, 2007 9:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm, maybe
Duncan has one more year at min-salary, then he looks like a super-2 candidate for arbitration. So Zobrist has one more year at min salary than Duncan has. Duncan pretty much hit his PECOTA forecast for last season, so his forecast for future years should  remain about the same, which says he is worth:
  1. 9.1 million
  2. 8.6 million
  3. 9.1 million
  4. 8.2 million
My WAG for actual salaries for those years is 500K, 2.5 million, 4 million, 6 million, meaning he has a value of $22 million more than the salary we would pay him before he hits free agency.

Zobrist was very bad in limited major league at-bats this year, but did well in AAA, so I'm also speculating that his PECOTA projection won't change much, which is currently:

  1. 13.8 million
  2. 14.2 million
  3. 14 million
  4. 14.2 million
They don't go out to 2012, which would be Zobrist's last arb year, let's say that is worth 13.5 million. My salary WAGS for him would be 500k, 500k, 3.5 million, 5 million, 7.5 million, giving him a value of 52.7 million more than his salary before he hits free agency. Add in the fact that we need an everyday SS more than we need a lefty-hitting 1B/LF and I would be pretty tempted if I were Mo and this offer were on the table. My numbers may be a bit off here and there but I hope that I've at least shown that this deal should not be a flat NO from the Cards perspective.

by mikedallas23 on Nov 30, 2007 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Come on
That would be a bad deal!  If we traded Dunc for Zobrist straight up it would be pretty bad, come on you must admit that.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 11:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why must I admit that?
I've stated my argument above, where is your reasoning other than it would be pretty bad? I like Duncan, he's a good hitter and always busts his butt 100% but the reality is he is a 1st basemen currently miscast as a left fielder. We obviously can't play him at 1st, we have a gaggle of lefty-hitting outfielders (both on the big team now and among our top outfield prospects), and we could use an everyday SS. Take a look at this link and tell me what is so terrible about Ben Zobrist?

http://firstinning.com/players/Ben-Zobrist-a/

by mikedallas23 on Nov 30, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
In about 250 MLB at bats his OPS is around .500.
SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Nov 30, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

age
are those ages correct?  he looks pretty old for each level he has been at.  

by dmb60614 on Nov 30, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok
OK I do agree with you that Duncan could be a good trading chip as he really does not have a position at this point.  But saying it would be a good deal to trade Duncan straight up for Zobrist is crazy.  Those two don'e even compare.

They are the exact same age both born May 1981.

Duncan  
.884 OPS
.356 OBP   (pretty good, he was brutal 2nd half)
.528 SLG
.272 AVG
44 HR

Zobrist
.509 OPS  Eck OPS= .738  Miles OPS= .676
.234 OBP  wow thats bad
.275 SLG
.200 AVG

OK he is not that good defensively that he makes up for that glaring of a difference in offensive categories.

That is why I say it is a bad Straight up trade.  Throw in another DRay and it may be an OK trade.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Those are only his major league numbers...
Which is a pretty small sample size compared to his minor league numbers, which are pretty good. In addition, he had only a .187 BABIP in his major league stint this year despite a 17% line drive rate, looks pretty unlucky to me. Meanwhile, he had 275 plate appearances at AAA this year as opposed to 104 in the majors, at AAA he hit .279/.400/.455, which translates to .256/.372/.441 at the major league level, that ain't bad for a shortstop.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/pageIntreg.php

Last year's PECOTA projections think he will hit .283/.351/.401 in 2008, that ain't bad for a shortstop either. I doubt he will ever make an all-star team but he looks like a good candidate to give you slightly above league average production for low salary for several years and that's nothing to sneeze at.

by mikedallas23 on Nov 30, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Zobrist
I guess I am not going to say he is awful, but I think a Duncan for Zobrist trade is pretty lopsised as Duncan has actually produced at the MLB level.  I am sorry you can predict until you are blue in the face but Duncan has proved he can produce while Zobrist is still a question mark.  I think the Rays would be a lot better off making a straight up trade than STL.  I just think Duncan can get more than Zobrist alone.

That was my only beef.  Now Zobrist may be worth a look but if he was traded straight up for duncan I would not bee too happy.  I think 2008 is an important year for Duncan.  I want to see him "play every day" and then the Cardinals can determine if they need to keep him or can afford to trade him.  He right now besides Albert is the only real pop in the line up.  Ankiel is still not a proven thing.  

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No worries
Looks like this debate just became moot anyway, as we just signed Izturis. I think we can find common ground in agreeing that he is not very good at baseball.

by mikedallas23 on Nov 30, 2007 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you sure?
We only get a pick if we offered arbitration, right?  I thought we had some kind of gentlemen's agreement not to offer Percival arbitration.  I just heard someone say this - I don't have a source.  

Is there a place to go to see whether we offered a player arbitration?

by Toddius396 on Nov 30, 2007 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Unless
the player signs with a team before the arbitration deadline.  In this case, that's what Percival did and therefore we get the sandwich pick anyway.  

by eglasier on Nov 30, 2007 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

gentleman's agreement
would only make sense if he is a type A (signing team forfeits a pick).  i am pretty sure he is a type B.  the rays dont lose a pick by signing him.  the cards would get a sandwich pick.

by dmb60614 on Nov 30, 2007 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Get out of my head!
I saw that last night about the Lowrie kid being a stud prospect on the Yes Hot stove when they were discussing the Santana trade possibilites. I live in Ct and have heard many mornings on talk radio the fans complain they have no catching prospects and Varitek keeps getting older. I think it is a great match. Nice call. Long as Santana goes somewhere else. I would say leave it at Anderson and some filler prospects. He should be enough. After that go get Laroche and eat some of Rolens salary if neccessary to get it done and we have a nice young left side of the infield. With Rasmus in Center flanked by Dunc and Ankiel we would be looking solid.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 30, 2007 9:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lowrie or Nelson
Neither blocks Kozma - once Koz is ready, the worse defender can move off SS to 2B.

Nelson and Lowrie are very different beasts, but both would be a nice infusion for the Cards.  Nelson's the worse bet to stick at SS, but might come the cheapest (is the most "blocked").

Don't forget about Sean Rodrigues of the LAA, or a couple younger guys in the Rangers system.  

by siddfynch on Nov 30, 2007 10:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

"Azruavatar
also runs with scissors."

Sincerely,

Azruavatar's high school teacher

by 26thMan on Nov 30, 2007 10:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Seriously, I'd have smacked
that teacher.  Write an actual letter of recommendation or don't write at all.

by sdrone on Nov 30, 2007 10:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BA top 10 list
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/265257.html
  1.      Colby Rasmus, of
  2.     Chris Perez, rhp
  3.     Bryan Anderson, c
  4.     Jaime Garcia, lhp
  5.     Adam Ottavino, rhp
  6.     Pete Kozma, ss
  7.     Clayton Mortensen, rhp
  8.     Mitchell Boggs, rhp
  9.     Tyler Herron, rhp
  10.     Jon Jay, of

by StLHugo on Nov 30, 2007 10:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

rasmus
geez - rasmus is credited with the best ability to hit for both average and power, considered the best athlete, and the best defensive outfielder in the minor league system.... wow.  And hoff has an OBP around 400 and we are looking for a leadoff hitter???  

by cdb on Nov 30, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Projected 2011 line-up.
I find it interesting he projects Rolen in the 2011 lineup but doesn't include Reyes.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 30, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

did anybody post
The Top 50 yet from MiLB? Rasmus = 7.

   1.  Jay Bruce
   2. Evan Longoria
   3. Cameron Maybin
   4. Clayton Kershaw
   5. Joba Chamberlain
   6. Clay Buchholz
   7. Colby Rasmus
   8. Andrew McCutchen
   9. Homer Bailey
  10. Adam Miller

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Nov 30, 2007 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh refreshing
That's a pretty solid top 10.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 30, 2007 11:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i wouldn't
write off jose martinez. i wouldn't count on him either. but his davenport peak translations are very good, for whatever they may be worth.

by erik on Nov 30, 2007 11:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Letter of rec
Wow, azru! What an ass (the teacher)! When I get a student who asks me to write a letter of rec and I might write something like that, I politely tell them that they might want to ask another teacher instead. I won't be able to write the letter that you want me to write. In other words -- Find someone who doesn't think you're a &%$#@! I don't take it and then use that opportunity to unleash my vengeance (though sometimes that sounds like a hell of a good idea).

by chuckb on Nov 30, 2007 1:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hope
he's cheap - that would be his greatest asset.

by Toddius396 on Nov 30, 2007 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and
a short contract.  
Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Nov 30, 2007 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Article says 1 yr...
so i would just hope that its cheap.

by FunkeeC on Nov 30, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why
the rush?  I just don't understand why we signed him now.  I can't imagine that he'll be a hot commodity this winter.  Oh well, guess that's why I'm not the GM...

by eglasier on Nov 30, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank goodeness we didn't offer
arbitration to Eckstein so we could sign the craptacular Izuckis to a 1 year deal.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 30, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

why wouldn't they
offer Arb. now?  Eckstein surely wouldn't accept at this point, correct?

by silent_bob on Nov 30, 2007 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mmmm, taste the McVeteran goodness!
I guess we prefer the replacement-level Izturis to the much cheaper replacement-level Brendan Ryan. I guess it's just one year, but if Tony ever bats him leadoff I will set myself on fire.

by mikedallas23 on Nov 30, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
Offensively they are the same guy---and Izturis is a better defender. I prefer those two guys over 4 years of Eckstein. There weren't many FA options and they had to have SOMEONE to play the position.

Ryan gets better and better in people's minds--he wasnt exactly a terror in the minors. And, actually, Izturis is 27 while Ryan is 25. Its not like Izturis is a grandpa.

Is he a good player? No. But the options out there weren't great.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Nov 30, 2007 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Last line of the article
identifies Capuano as the SP trade target

by tdawg on Nov 30, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh mo
reyes is so much better. i can just imagine the game: reyes is no-hitting us and cappy is tossing the brewers batting practice

by johnstonburg on Nov 30, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

honestly
What in their career numbers would lead you to suggest Anthony Reyes is a better major league pitcher than Chris Capuano?

Was Capuano bad last year? Yes. But he was a #2 guy in the NL Central the two previous years. He's not a castoff.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Nov 30, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

capuano
i like the idea of buying low...assuming he passes a physical.  he really sucked last year, but was pretty darn good for two years before that.

by dmb60614 on Nov 30, 2007 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it could be worse they could have done this..
Bruce Levine of ESPN 1000 reports had it first: the Astros have signed second baseman Kaz Matsui to a three year deal worth $15-16MM

oh it gets better now they may move burke and luke scott..not that they are studs, but burke has to have some folk lore for his shot against the braves

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 30, 2007 1:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

that was for about 5-6 million bucks less
and kennedy actually had a better track record.

by willievinceterry on Nov 30, 2007 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the line in the PD article
about the Cardinals appaerent interest in Chris C(r)apuano frightens me... have we learned nothing from the craptastic 2007 season, and picking up the Pirates cast offs?  
When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Nov 30, 2007 1:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

other than last year
I would say that Capuano is a pretty good pitcher.  The two full years before that he had eras of (aprox) 3.99 and 4.03

and heck, last year he was probibly better than half our staff ;-)

by jealousblues on Nov 30, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Disappoints me, too
I thought a trade centered around Chris Duncan and Jake Westbrook would have made a lot of sense for both teams, while fitting the parameters of Bernie's rumor.

by liam on Nov 30, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank You!
I'm mostly a lurker, but I wanted to thank the entire community for providing level headed comments and analysis. After this signing, that "other" board is chock full of over reacting alarmists.

Being a reader on the site keeps me calm and lets me understand that this signing, while not the best, gives us 1yr of a defensive capable shortstop and and possibly a chance to see what Ryan can do. Signing Eck or Wilson to 3-4 years would be a truely bad signing.

My only question is who bats lead off????

9/8/1998 - Lankford's 27th

by badseed on Nov 30, 2007 2:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Finding the leadoff hitter is
hugely important.  We no longer have an "obvious" choice (though I never thought Eck was more than adequate), and I just hope TLR is thinking about a creative choice to hit first.  I'd hate to just default to Kennedy.

Time for Edmonds or Rolen to be considered.  I wonder if either guy would consider it an interesting late-career challenge and embrace the idea?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 30, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now you're talking
when I read your first line, I was unenthused.  I'm of the opinion that the idea of "finding a leadoff hitter" is overrated.  We need to find the best hitters we can, who get on base the most, and put one of those best hitters in the leadoff spot.  He doesn't have to steal bases or be little or whatever.  He just has to get on base a lot.  

I don't think Tony will go w/ your Edmonds or Rolen idea but it should be considered and I like the fact that you're thinking outside the box.

by chuckb on Nov 30, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't spell it out, but I agree
with you completely about the "best hitter who gets on base the most."  My point is that very few managers actually think that way.  A good on-base guy who has any power is almost always going to get stuck down in the order.  And, few players who fit that description are interested in leading off in the first place.  So what usually happens is a team defaults to identifying the 3 or 4 regulars with the least power, and from that small group, the guy with the best OBP gets to lead off. Finding a leadoff guy is crucial, NOT overrated.  But most teams don't take it seriously enough to consider putting a "middle of the order" bat at the top.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 30, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ideally, Jarrett Hoffpauir will find a way
to beat out everyone for the starting spot at second.  He offers a very good OBP but without as much power.  If Rasmus continues to develop his power stroke he would probably slot better further down in the order.

by azruavatar on Nov 30, 2007 11:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

intriguing
and if Tony keeps hitting the pitcher in the 8 hole, the "lead-off" spot loses a bit of the 'traditional requirements' we always talk about.
The idea I have is to hit Rolen in the 2 hole.  If we are to really give him a chance to re-gain himself, I can't think of a better advantage to give him than to bat in front of Albert.
As far as 'wasting' a 4/5/6 type 'power' hitter in the 2 hole, a) Larussa has already proven he is willing to do that (Duncan); and b) we aren't all that sure that Scotty still has that pop in his bat anyway.
On the bases, he may not have blazing speed, but he is an intelligent runner, I think

by the Tewk on Nov 30, 2007 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a) he's probably not ready
b) what would you do with edmonds if he came up? a couple of weeks ago i suggested it would be worth considering a salary-dump offer like the padres were proposing, and people jumped right down my throat. there is simply no room for ankiel, duncan, edmonds, and rasmus in the same OF.

by willievinceterry on Nov 30, 2007 7:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When will he be ready???
What more does the kid have to learn. Please someone tell me. Get him up and give him a glove and a bat and turn him loose.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 30, 2007 8:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like this deal.
Izturis has a good glove and will hold down the middle infield for a year. If he does bad then we try again next year, but if he does good then we can sign him for a few more. Also, it seems like in chicago he was under a lot of pressure to be the next big thing and he couldn't do it. Looking at his stats after the all star break as an indication I would expect him to hit around .270 or so. It might be an empty average, but I like him better than four years of Wilson. Also, by signing him now we can focus on trading players next week without having to deal with free agents.

p.s. If we could get good deals I am extremely willing to trade rolen and duncan.  

by tnek5 on Nov 30, 2007 2:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

if we can
get good deals I would consider eeyone but pujols wainer rasmus.. We need a numbe 2 starter who do you think we can get also a right handed bat.

by cm1000 on Nov 30, 2007 2:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

P-D online didn't help pave way for Itzuris...
by putting a picture of Miguel Tejada on the front of the sports section last week. Those throws from the edge of the OF grass are going to seem like RPG shots after noodle ekstein (god bless him).

by templetown on Nov 30, 2007 2:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld sidebar
Why did they take down the story about Percival going to the D-Rays that was on there earlier today?

by saladdays on Nov 30, 2007 3:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yuck
We now have quite possibly the worst offensive player in the National League.  What a waste of roster space.

by tdzz1975 on Nov 30, 2007 3:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Overstatement of the year?
There's a lot of people worse than him.  I mean, we could have signed Kaz Matsui...

by saladdays on Nov 30, 2007 3:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From Bernie's on-point piece about the man ...
"Izturis has never been much of a hitter; from 2001 through 2007 he was among the worst in the majors.

Maybe the worst, if you buy into OPS (onbase + slugging) as a measure. Izturis literally had the worst OBP + SLG in the majors from 2001-2007 with an anemic .629.

We could forgive his lack of power if Izturis made himself useful by drawing walks and getting on base to set up innings. But Izturis doesn't even do that. His career OBP is a hideously bad .295.

From 2001-2007, only four hitters had a worse OBP: Neifi Perez (.285), Tony Batista (.287), Pedro Feliz (.288) and Deivi Cruz (.293).

The Izturis walk rate is terrible: one for every 21.09 plate appearance.

Basically, the man is an out machine. He just makes outs all season long."

I guess it could have been worse if we somehow got Neifi.

I would prefer Ryan, Eckstein, whoever the starting SS at Vianney is, and quite possibly my wife after I teach her the rules of the game.

God, I hope he proves me wrong.

by tdzz1975 on Nov 30, 2007 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
So you would prefer probably $5-6 million of Eckstein for a year?  And it's still unknown what Ryan would do (I'd give you him if you are only talking about money; otherwise we don't really know how well he would do playing everyday).

Did you read lboros assessment of him?  His lefty splits are decent.  If he actually does get platooned with Ryan, we could get decent production out of that position.

by saladdays on Nov 30, 2007 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Excuse me
Actually it would probably be more like $6-7 Eck would get in arbitration.

by saladdays on Nov 30, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then
remove Eckstein from my list.

Itz is still not worth more than a bag of baseballs and some day-old donuts.

Maybe Tony can make him productive, but at this point that seems like wishful thinking.

by tdzz1975 on Nov 30, 2007 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it could be worse...
We could have signed Eck to Julio Lugo money.

As stopgaps go, I can stomach this.  I just wish Mo had the cajones to stand up to Tony and say "Ryan is your SS for 2008.  Deal with it."

I just can't see Izturis contributing that much for his $2.85-$3.5M.  Or I should say...I just can't see Izturis contributing ~$3M more than Ryan could next year.

As for Eck...maybe they SHOULD still offer him arbitration at the deadline.  If he accepts, we have our "veteran" backup middle infielder for 1 year.  We could platoon Ryan/Izturis at SS and Eck/Kennedy at 2B, while getting rid of the likes of Miles and Cairo.  And if Eck declined the arbitration, we get the draft pick.  Probably won't happen, however.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Nov 30, 2007 3:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I especially agree
with the part, "Ryan is your SS for 2008.  Deal with it."
But I guess a first-year GM can't go up against the overly venerated (I actually mean to say 'stubborn') Larussa.
I don't understand Larussa's seeming cold shoulder to B Ryan (is it still the sunglasses thing?) NOR do I understand the concensus on this board, which is tepid toward Ryan at best.
And money-wise, if we are going to spend big bucks for a proven star...GET A PITCHER!

by the Tewk on Nov 30, 2007 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis Tsuris
Let's see -- the guy can't hit for average, can't get on base, has no power, and a history of chronic back and hamstring problems.  Sure, he's nifty with the glove, he's only 28 years old (or will be next year), and his contract is for only one year, but seriously, there are -- no exaggeration -- 50 shortstops in organized baseball who can do what he does.  So why would you give him anything more than a backup role or anything above a league-minimum salary?  If this is the kind of decision making we have to look forward to under Mozeliak, then color me very afraid...
Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 30, 2007 4:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's not even nifty with the glove...
If you look at most defensive metrics for the last two years, he's basically average or so.

He was great defensively in 04. But that appears to have been his peak year, period. Ever since he's declinded offensively and defensively.

by DiscoJer on Nov 30, 2007 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, what would really be bad
is if they overspent on obtaining Wilson.

by saladdays on Nov 30, 2007 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Unless
Unless you want to trade someone for a guy like Izturis or a bit better you are really better off paying for him.  You are not going to find a FA SS cheaper than Izturis, so you will just have to deal with the facts.

Yeah there are better options but this is the best option for the Cardinals.  They did not have to trade anyone to get a one year reantal type guy.  There were no FA SS available and why trade anyone for a stop gap anyway.  There were discussions about trading Bryan Anderson for a Boston minor league SS, but he had not proven he could play at the MLB level.

I see this as tolerable because the Cardinals did need a back up SS with eck being gone.  Miles, Kennedy, Barden, and Hoffpauir are not guys you want to see at SS for extended time so if Ryan gets hurt at least you have a "true" SS to fill the gap.  I don't think you want to see those other names playing 50+ games at SS.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wrong
"You are not going to find a FA SS cheaper than Izturis, so you will just have to deal with the facts."

This is flat out wrong.  In fact, they have a player on the team that's essentially the same value as Izturis.  His name is Brendan Ryan.  He can at least hold par with Izturis offensively and the defensive gap isn't enough to justify paying another 2.5M.  More importantly, you can comb the minor leagues for AAA players that are just as good as Izturis and make league minimum.

by azruavatar on Nov 30, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
Sorry I meant a "stop gap free agent"!

I see it this way, it is OK to let Brendan prove his worth and I think he will get a shot to do it in 2008.  The problem was what if Brendan gets hurt?  I do not want to see Brian Barden, Aaron Miles, Adam Kenneday, or Jarret Hoffpauir try to play 60+ games at SS!

This is a good platoon option player for one year only and he comes about as cheap as you will get that for.  The Cards could have went with a lot worse options like Wilson for two years.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree and
see him as a platoon guy with Ryan or someone else..Its cheap and u still have the pitchers mentioned that would possibly have gone for wilson so you can keep them or trade them in another move.
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 30, 2007 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True enough
It's certainly no disaster, ICbirdfan.  And perhaps I'm being led around by my emotions, b/c I can't stand Izturis or Izturis-type players.  But I think that when you're talking about replacement-level players -- and that has been Izturis' productivity level for three year running -- it's false to say he's the best option available for the Cardinals.  I also think the difference between having Izturis and offering Eckstein arbitration (and either having him for one year for slightly more $$, or taking the draft pick if he walks) also comes out in favor of retaining Eck.
Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 30, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agree
I agree ideally the Cards could just have kept Eck for one year only, but that was highly unlikely that he would only deal with a one year contract.  I would have obviously liked the chance to get a few picks, as it is never bad to have a couple extra draft picks no matter where they are I guess.

For what went down this is about the best scenario, like I said I would not want to give up players for a guy like Jack Wilson.  I also don't like paying a guy like Wilson 7 Mill per year.  He is not 4 Mill better than Izturis.

The Cardinals have to have a legit SS as a back up or starter, but I see more of a platoon in 2008.  Ryan will get plenty of PT to prove himself.  Like I said does everyone want to see Miles, Barden, Kennedy, and Hoffpauir at SS as none of those guys are natural SS.  Ryan or Izturis may get hurt so there has to be a person who is a natural SS backing up/ready to fill in.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
Eck almost certainly would've turned down a one-year offer, but at least we'd have the picks.  I think we disagree about whether Izturis was the best option available, but we definitely agree that there are no great (or even good) options available -- just different versions of disappointment.
Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 30, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Izturis
Wile I have been a proponent of trying Ryan at SS, I have been out here in LA for a long time and have some insight regarding Izturis.

First, the guy was absolutely sensational his Gold Glove year.  Scond, he did hit that year--no power, but 193 hits and decent average.  Obviously he doesn't walk much, but the difference in power for him and say Eckstein is not that great in the grand scheme of things.

Now, I just read the Bernie M. blog entry blasting the guy with the statistical analysis, but this is the information that may be useful.  The guy had won a Gold Glove here in LA and the Dodgers traded for Furcal and essentially the guy was devastated.  He didn't handle it well, but would you, if you had won a Gold Glove and had the nation's second largest media market fawning over you, and then got dumped.

That clearly carried over when he got traded first to the Cubs and then to Pitt.  The dude is will be 28 in February; he is not old and he should return closer to what he was.  In other words he should not be in an age decline.  There was an attitude problem.  You don't have the skills that the guy showed in LA and lose those overnight.  Let's hope the change of scenery will help.

If Ryan was not going to be used, then a one year deal is something that I think we can live with, particularly with LaRussa the manager.  I do think that there are others within the organization that are not that high on Ryan as well.  His sample last year is very minimal and his minor league career has not been distinguished.  Eck was not going to get and should not get 4 years for $36 million from the Cardinals or really anyone.

by MortLA on Nov 30, 2007 4:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I would be more sanguine, Mort,
about Izturis returning to his 2004 level if he hadn't been injured so frequently since then.  His back/hamstring/elbow problems seem much more persistent to me than the attitude problems you suggest.
Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 30, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's had one good year...
You blast Ryan for only producing for a small sample size, but out of all his playing time in the majors. Izturis has only had one really good year, and that was 4 years ago (or will be). The rest of that he's been Ryan-esque.

by DiscoJer on Nov 30, 2007 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

actually
ryan's hitting numbers (in 180 at bats) top any of izturis' single-season numbers as far as avg/obp/slg/ops. i'd rather have a small-ish sample size and good numbers than a large one the was as sub-mediocre as CI's.

by willievinceterry on Nov 30, 2007 7:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like he will fit right in with the
Surgery for everybody theme this team has been plauged by...
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 30, 2007 4:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Will the Royals will be more fun to watch
in 2008 than the Cards?  

The Royals are a team on the rise and have some exciting young players like Gordon & Butler that are probably going to establish themselves as very good offensive players next season.
Their pitching is still questionable but they are young have alot of promise. And they have a new "younger" manager that seems to have the fire to win and to help bring out the best in their young players.  

In the other direction the Cards are are going to be playing with a really weak offense outside of Pujols & Ankiel and seems to be in this holding pattern leaning towards being one of the worst teams in the NL.

If you can put the bad memories of 85 aside the Royals might be a fun team to follow next summer while still following the Cards since 2008 seems to be a "throw away" season for our Redbirds.

At least this is how I am seeing my summer of 08 playing out.

by KYCards on Nov 30, 2007 4:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Duncan
Duncan will be good offensively.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 30, 2007 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mlb trade rumors is
still talking about capuno for reyes someone else said it could be rolen for him... could be interesting..

by cm1000 on Nov 30, 2007 4:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My lord, the implications
of having the lowest OPS in baseball. Also, does this mean I'm not allowed to use "Cesar Izturis" as the punchline of jokes any more?

by wyld stallyns on Nov 30, 2007 5:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Izturis? GROSSS!!
When did we become the Tampa Bay Devil Rays!!

How pitiful is it that Dan Haren just came on the market and I got excited for 1 second before I realized that the Cards have ZERO chance of going after him in Nashville this week.

Someone, somewhere, please explain to me how paying, and playing a known mediocrity like Cesar Izturis makes more sense than playing Brendan Ryan everyday, who is young, cheap, and has shown signs that he can get Xbase hits.

This is a Cubs signing. A Royals signing. If we're going to rebuild-- REBUILD!! Let these young guys who carried us back to .500 (briefly, I know) play every day, we might not be in the playoffs, but we'll know if they can play and plan for the future or let them be attractive enough to deal for studs like Dan Haren (who never should have gotten away, but I was for the Mulder trade just like everyone else. We just didn't know we'd be getting damaged goods.)

IZTURIS!!!!!!!!!!!! Spanish for "PUNCH AND JUDY!!!"

Gross!

by AtlantaCard on Nov 30, 2007 5:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Proven talent
It's so strange that this guy can make $2.5 million more than league minimum just because he's a proven major league guy, when what he's proven is that he can't hit.  

by yad on Nov 30, 2007 5:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if
there'll be any more roster moves before the Rule 5 draft. At this point, we don't have a roster spot to give to a draftee so we couldn't even participate. There are some decent players available .

Here are more

and here

by chuckb on Nov 30, 2007 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Might be the best thing for him
considering our glut of young outfielders. Maybe he can latch on with someone else in the bigs as a bench/4th outfielder.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 30, 2007 8:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mlb rumors
for what its worth is talking about a trade involving rolen and capuano like I said for what it is worth a trade with those 2 reyes hall schumaker maybe even suppan could be a bold move.. Mlb also said that we could be sleepers on si;va and lohse I hope not just a soon trade for sup..

by cm1000 on Nov 30, 2007 9:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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