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courting curt

a little quick followup on yesterday's riff on projections: Cardinal70 compared the preseason community projections done here at VEB and at Cardinals Clubhouse vs the actual stats. two posts: number 1 and number 2.

mozeliak has made initial contect w/ the curt schilling camp:

The Cardinals have targeted postseason monster Curt Schilling as a potential short-term solution for their tattered starting rotation, and the righthander has reciprocated their interest.

Two days after having the interim removed from his title, Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak contacted Schilling's agent, Ed Hayes, Friday morning to convey the club's interest. Schilling confirmed Wednesday the Cardinals were one of 13 teams he would go to as a free agent.

schilling mentions the same thing at his blog. the talk is of a 1-year deal, which makes sense for the cards; since the salary won't carry over into 2009, it almost doesn't matter what they pay him. (for whatever it's worth, my cocktail-napkin estimate the other day placed his expected per-annum figure in the range of $12.5 million.) we should be aware that schilling is showing some pretty serious signs of decline; in the last 3 years he's hit the disabled list twice, and his FIP, whip, k/9, and hr/9 figures from 2007 were all the worst he's posted in more than a decade. but that's not my main hesitation with this idea; there's a reasonable chance schilling will bounce back, and even if he doesn't he's an upgrade over the status quo. my primary hesitation is that schilling, a type A, would cost the cardinals a draft pick. their 1st-round pick is protected since it's among the top 15, but they would lose their 2d-rounder, which would probably fall at around #70. players the cardinals recently selected at around #70 have included dan haren (72d pick in 2001), mark hamilton (#76 in 2006), and jon jay (#74 in 2006); a decade ago, they chose rick ankiel in the 2d round with the 72d pick. current players on other teams recently chosen in the range of #70 include yunel escobar (the atlanta rookie who pushed edgar renteria out of a job), hunter pence, dustin pedrioa, curtis granderson, grady sizemore, chase utley, elijah dukes, ryan garko, and chris ray (the baltimore closer). of the 100 draft picks made at 70 through 79 between 1995 and 2004, 31 have played in the majors and about 15 became regulars at some point. so if the cards sign schilling to make 30 starts, i'll cost them roughly a 1 in 6 chance at a homegrown regular.

i'd give roughly the same odds (ie, 1 in 6) to schilling's turning the cards into contenders next year. to me, that's not a good tradeoff --- i'd rather have the draft pick than the 2 or 3 marginal wins schilling will be worth in 2008 --- but i can see the other side of the argument. it's not as if the future of the farm system hinges on one stinkin' draftee. the cardinals will gain at least 1 compensation pick (in the #50s or so) when troy percival gets signed away, and possibly another in the same range if they let eckstein go somewhere else. if i were in charge, i'd stockpile all the high draft picks i could get, but if the cards have a surplus of 'em and choose to sacrifice one for some short-term gain it's not the end of the world.

oh, by the way: the brewers are interested too.

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Percival?
How would the draft pick compensation work if Percival signs somewhere mid-season?  Would the pick be in the 2009 draft? Do we have to offer arbitration?  I know little about draft pick compensation-free agent signing business.  Thanks.

by birdsonthebat on Nov 3, 2007 10:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

percival is currently a type B free agent
if another team signs him this winter (as seems likely), the cards will get a compensation pick.

by lboros on Nov 3, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only if
He signs with another team before the deadline for offering arbitration or if the Cardinals offer him arbitration.  In the past the Cardinals have been content not to offer arbitration because of their fear (generally unwarranted in my view) that the player would accept.

by MikeG on Nov 3, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fearing Marquis yes
If you got stuck with Marquis that's absolutely horrendous outcome.  We want Percival to come back, especially on a one year deal which is what arbitration provides for.  There'd be no reason not to offer arby.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 3, 2007 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One problem
You assume the Sox will offer him arbitration.

by birdo on Nov 3, 2007 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

arbi deadline isn't until early december
if a deal gets done before then, the compensation is automatic.

if he were unsigned at the deadline and the sox didn't offer arbitration, then i'd be all in favor of signing the guy.

by lboros on Nov 3, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Red Sox his first choice
I suspect that if Schilling is offered arbitration by the BoSox he will accept it unless somebody makes a truly ridiculous offer.

I hope the Cardinals are not that team.

by DizzyDean17 on Nov 3, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The assumption
is that the bidding may be hot enough before the arby deadline that he'll get an offer at his desired level before the Sox would have to offer.

If we're serious about signing him, then, we'll need to be prepared to lose our second rounder.

by liam on Nov 3, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hijack--
Matheny filed for FA yesterday... Is this some sort of formality or is he fit to play?

by cardinalfan7 on Nov 3, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As far as I knew...
Mike was formally retired and back in St Louis.  So his filing for Free Agency would strike me as more than a formality.

Our new backup Catcher?

by mynameistyler on Nov 3, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mo says Coach
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/6B4708AD48CEC4AD86257388000ADE03 ?OpenDocument

End of the article.  Mo says he'd offer Matheny a spot coaching or instructing, but no mention of playing.

by birdsonthebat on Nov 3, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I vote for Coach
I think he'd be a terrific addition to the staff.
Somewhere the real Cardinals front office is being held hostage.

by yer dog first on Nov 3, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we get two picks in the 50s
I'd be willing to sacrafice the 1 pick in the 70s.  If there is a player they truly target in that 70 range, I'd rather them reach at 50 and get him.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 3, 2007 11:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yup...
If we are going to get two picks in the 50 range I'd gladly sacrifice our second rounder to pick up Schilling.

The guy would take a one year deal.  The fit couldn't be any better.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 3, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LB made the point yesterday
in the thread that the last time the Cards had this many picks early on, it allowed them to take more chances with their picks. Therefore they ended up w/ 4 guys w/ pretty high upsides -- they didn't feel the need to be conservative w/ their picks (Kozma?) b/c they had so many early ones. Your point is well-taken: that the Cards could afford to sacrifice their #70 b/c they'd have the #13 and two in the 50's. LB's point was that the increased # of picks made each pick better (Rasmus, Greene, McCormick, Herron) b/c they took chances. Granted, to this point two of them haven't worked out well at all, but 2 have worked out pretty well. Having more picks obviously brings more players, but it may also make them BETTER b/c it affects how the Cards draft.

by chuckb on Nov 3, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

schilling
as i was trying to say yesterday, if the Cardinals sign him, they will likely get the same compensation the Red Sox would get the next year (sandwich pick and some other team's 2nd rounder)if he even slides to a type b free agent, he'd net a sandwich pick. it just delays things a bit.

by erik on Nov 3, 2007 11:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

thats if...
he keeps on pitching.  2008 could very well be his last year.

by dmb60614 on Nov 3, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

very true
if he's leaning towards retirement, i say pass. who knows for sure.

by erik on Nov 3, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think bigger!
He could be traded for prospects if Carp comes back strong. That's two good prospects instead of the one you'd get from FA compensation.

by liam on Nov 3, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's a very good point
especially given his reputation as a post-season pitcher.  

Of course if we sign him, and he isn't hurt, we'll almost certainly be in the playoff hunt by the deadline...

'I'd much rather be "happy" than "right", any day.' -- slartibartfast

by SleepyCA on Nov 3, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Erik
Can you tell us what sandwich pick means?  I don't know the term.  Thanks.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Nov 3, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Supplemental First round.
Between the 1st and 2nd round is a whole round of compensation picks for teams signing type a and type b free agents.

by erik on Nov 3, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok thanks.
So its preferable to the 2nd round.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Nov 3, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is important
if Schilling costs the Cards $13 M per year, he also costs about $3 M b/c of the lost draft pick -- therefore, $16 M. But gaining the sandwich pick the following year gains that $3 M back minus the salary inflation that occurs from 1 season to the next. If it's 10% (and it's probably not quite that high), then it gains back $2.7 M in today's dollars. Therefore, if Schilling plays in 2009, Schilling's cost to the Cards would be roughly $13.3 M on a $13 M salary.

by chuckb on Nov 3, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

another year?
I'm a little confused. Curt has made many, many indications that 2008 will be his last season. So how would they acquire draft picks in the following season?

by birdo on Nov 3, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Schilling's stats
When looking at what Schillings stats might look like next year, it's important to look at where he'll be pitching.  For one, Bucsh III can be very pitcher friendly.  Secondly, most pitchers improve moving from the American League (especially the AL East) to the National League (especially the NL Central).

If Ted Lilly can become a staff ace in one year, the outlook for Schilling to post numbers as good as last year, if not better, are pretty decent.  Especially, if only a 1 year deal.

by Big Red on Nov 3, 2007 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What about the value of a mentor???
Schilling said he also wants to go to a team where he can mentor young pitchers. We have young pitchers and a pitcher with very little experience starting, Looper. What value can you place on that aspect of Schilling. I'm not saying Maddux is totally responsible for the state of SD pitching staff but he gave them a lift. They sure did pitch a lot better this year with him around. Maybe Schilling with his bold statements and frank comments can shake Anthony Reyes up and get him to pitch like he is capable of pitching. If he could turn around Anthony Reyes that would have to be worth a lot.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 3, 2007 12:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If I'm not mistaken...
A sandwich pick is one that occurs between the first and second rounds of the amateur draft...is that right?

by tbell61 on Nov 3, 2007 12:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

lincecum
ok i might have mispelled it but mlbtraderumors Speculates (not sure where rumrs coming from) he could be had for a qulaity bat? Ok this is one id give Dunc up for..dunc and reyes for linceum? or is it to early to jump the gun on him?

He can be erradic but after seeing his start against oswalt i think he can be a good pickup...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 3, 2007 12:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

and the giants must be stupid
if this is true maybe theyd take JEd since they like old guys..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 3, 2007 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Joke
People around here complain about LaRussa liking vets...But the Giants camp seems to like geriatrics.  If you're a 40+ outfielder and you want to keep playing, all you have to do is give the SBC Park/Nursing Home a ring.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 3, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i really doubt the rumor...
i doubt its true, but dumb trades have happened before.  as far as i know this rumor originated with tracy ringolsby.  although he is a hall of fame journalist he has thrown out some crazy stuff in the past as far as rumors go.  i am not too confident in his sources.  rosenthal seems to be the gold standard in rumor mongering.

by dmb60614 on Nov 3, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that one was
tracy ringolsby out of Denver. He's usually very good. I suspect that Lincecum's name was actually given to him. I'd have to think they meant in a trade for Cabrera OR they were simply pulling a little bait-and-switch for Noah Lowry. They won't give him away and it's dubious that they'd even trade him at all. But it would take a pitcher like him to get Cabrera and I could see a deal being made w/ those 2 being the principals.

by chuckb on Nov 3, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunc + Reyes 4 Lincecum
LMAO. Lincecum is worth much more.

by Hungry Jack on Nov 4, 2007 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Giants willing to trade
The Giants are willing to trade Lowry, not Lincecum.

Nobody trades a young ace!!!

by RDF922 on Nov 3, 2007 7:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

here's what Curt had to say
on 1380ESPN yesterday morning.

http://www.insidestl.com/morningafter/audio/110207CurtSchillingALSBostonSTLBlessings2004WorldSeries. mp3

dont know about you but boston sounds to me like they have the inside track. he's talking to theo right now. he says he'd rather finish there. he's got a new busines there. all signs point to him staying put.

and thats fine by me. i'd rather him not sign with the Cards. his performace has gone down the past few years. i dont think he's worth the money he's going to ask for. adding on top of that he's going to cost us a draft pic. the price is just to high for what little performace he's going to give the Cards.

and after what he&his teams did to us in 01&04, i really dont want him here. i personally dont like him. his whole attitude just rubs me the wrong way.

besides, he's to big time (in his own mind) to play for a team who's in a fly over state.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 3, 2007 10:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

TOTALLY!
A Roger "I'd like to not travel when I'm not scheduled to pitch wanna be attitude" Clemens future hall o' famer user of the latest fool.  Let him fade in Boston.

by DesmetMattdNYC on Nov 4, 2007 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Curt Schilling
is a blowhard idiot.  The last thing I want to do is spend a season listening to him preach from his high horse, feud with players and reporters and espouse his right-wing political agenda.

by bgodar on Nov 4, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe
But imagine if we did get to the post season. He is near automatic in the post season and he has alot of passion for the game.

by Romo9 on Nov 4, 2007 12:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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