short list
anybody interested in a VEB meetup at a cardinal game next summer? see alex fritz's diary. a number of other SBN blogs have held events of this type, and they always seem to be a hit. lot of interest so far; plus, fritz has committed to entertaining us all with either a standup routine or a powerpoint presentation.
let's do a little parsing of joe strauss' article yesterday about the options the cardinals are considering at shortstop. the nut graph says "the Cardinals continue to explore alternatives that include the Baltimore Orioles' Miguel Tejada, the Pittsburgh Pirates' Jack Wilson and free agent Cesar Izturis." how realistic are those alternatives? how desirable are they?
miguel tejada: according to strauss, "a club source described as the chances of landing Tejada as `slim to none.'" agreed. in an interview at MLB Trade Rumors this morning, baltimore sun beat writer jeff zrebiec says the orioles want "two high-level prospects" for him; the cardinals don't have two guys like that to spare. however, both los angeles teams can afford that price, both of them are looking for right-handed power at 3d base (and can move tejada there), and at least one will fail to land miguel cabrera. ergo that team (or teams) will surely trump any offer the cards can muster. moreover, the orioles are standing pat until cabrera gets traded, and the cards appear to be in a bit of a hurry to get this hole filled. so forget about tejada.
cesar izturis: should be available for cheap, which is his prime appeal. he's a free agent, so wouldn't cost any prospects; if they signed him to a 1-year deal for, say, $3m, i could live w/ it. he'd make a reasonable platoon partner with brendan ryan; the switch-hitting izturis actually isn't so terrible as a left-handed hitter --- .272 / .318 / .352 as a lefty since 2004, vs .258 / .295 / .323 as a right-hander. with proper platoon management pujols batting behind him, a .330 on-base pct wouldn't be out of the question. if you got that, plus a few stolen bases and superior fielding for your $3m, you'd make out ok. indeed, as a stopgap he's probably about on a par with eckstein ---- weaker hitter but better in all other phases (younger, faster, healthier, better fielder).
jack wilson: this guy has been on the block since midsummer, when he nearly got dealt to the tigers; i mined MLB Trade Rumors' archives to reconstruct the way that thing went down. tim brown of yahoo sports started gauging wilson's trade value as early as june 14: "I asked an American League baseball operations man what kind of interest there would be in Wilson in a trade. His report: `Wilson is a solid everyday shortstop who's got value, especially defensively.'" a month later the blue jays (who were still in playoff contention but were playing royce clayton at short) inquired; dave littlefield asked for troy glaus, and the jays were so annoyed they dropped their pursuit of wilson altogether. as the trade deadline approached the tigers came calling, and for more than two weeks they haggled with littlefield. one report in the pittsburgh post-gazette said the pirates would have received two of detroit's top six prospects, "including an unnamed pitcher ready to join the major-league staff." a subsequent article identified the pitcher in question: "The deal on the table at the July 31 non-waiver deadline would have netted the Pirates one of two 21-year-old pitchers, Jair Jurrjens or Dallas Trahern, and another prospect in the Detroit system." jurrjens was still in double A at that time; he ended up making 7 late-season starts for the tigers, then got traded with another prospect last month to atlanta for edgar renteria. mitch boggs would be an analogous pitcher in the st louis system.
the pitching-rich tigers can afford to lose an arm like that; the cardinals can't. moreover, the tigers --- a championship-ready team with very narrow needs --- might actually benefit from a one-dimensional player like wilson, whereas the cards' lot isn't improved by an expensive, good-field no-hit shortstop. now, it's true that the pirates are under new management; they should be easier to deal with now that dave littlefield has departed. but then, wilson's value has only gone up since the near-miss w/ detroit. his ops was in the .660 range at the trade deadline, but he ended the season with 2 months of flukishly monstrous hitting (.409 / .467 / .697 after august 1), creating the false impression that he can actually hit. between that and his highly regarded glove, the pirates have no reason simply to give wilson away. but he's not good enough (particularly at his salary) to justify the expenditure of any young talent. the cards' expressions of interest are mildly worrisome; even a fringe-y prospect like joe mather would be too high a price, imho.
but i don't take their flirtation w/ wilson at face value, and here's why ----
david eckstein: quoting the strauss article:
"A lot of it is dictated by him and his agent," Mozeliak said. "Clearly right now we have to make sure we're in the same ballpark. It's a difference in how you value (a player) that can slow the process down."
let me make it clear that i don't really like any of these options. i don't see any of them as being that much better (if at all) than brendan ryan, and if i were in charge i'd just give him the job and spend my energy / resources addressing other positions. indeed, i don't agree w/ the whole notion of using position to analyze the team's needs. simply plugging in the best available veterans at shortstop, right-fielder, and starting pitcher won't get the team anywhere; at best, it'll extend the reign of mediocrity for another year. the focus should be on acquiring players who have the qualities the team needs. the qualities the cards should be looking for (imho) are youth, speed, upside potential, and payroll flexibility -- regardless of position. it so happens that the cards have a shortstop --- brendan ryan --- who exemplifies all those qualities; izturis offers the same, to a lesser extent. either one would suffice as a short-term strategy; they might not get the cards back to the top of the league, but they won't keep the cards from getting there in 2 or 3 years. that's their appeal.
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Comments
If you had seen Izturis play with the Cubs
I am seriously not exaggerating when I say that he seemed to make an error in every game he played (though obviously that's not true). I don't know what his error total was, but he was CONSTANTLY bobbling a ball or missing one I think he should have gotten or something like that. I actually felt bad for the guy - it was hard to watch.
he only had 8 errors last year
i watched eckstein play ss last year, and i can't live with that; i'll take my chances w/ the former gold-glover.
Wow
by rockin redbird on Nov 29, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
I do find the stats side of the
Unless he were still injured last year, I just don't see how we can refer to him as a gold-glover.
he sounds like
Hard to watch, but looking back had decent numbers?
I always had liked him with LA
by jealousblues on Nov 29, 2007 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
He was
by rockin redbird on Nov 29, 2007 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Izturis
If we signed Izturis and Tony played him at SS and Kennedy at 2nd for over 100 games we are going to be one of the worst offensive teams in baseball. Mark it down.
We better hope Rolen has a huge comeback and Duncan/Edmonds can stay healthy becuase we won't get ANY run production from a guy like Izturis. The guy has ZERO pop in his bat.
i know
these players are so bad that 1 year of them is more valuable than 2 . . . .
you know you are not blogging about a good team
This will help benchmark...
- a lot of posturing in the papers
- unimaginative trade ideas
- discouraging FA solutions
Yeah
by rockin redbird on Nov 29, 2007 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Wilson is just
Somebody in one of the comments or diaries a few days ago (and I apologize for not crediting you, b/c you deserve it) suggested trading Bryan Anderson for Jed Lowrie of the Red Sox. The Sox'll need a C in a year or 2 and we need a SS now. I'm no fan of trading Anderson but the prospect of adding a good, young SS, whether he's ready now or in half a year, is intriguing.
It's certainly an idea worth considering and would be a much better idea than adding any of these mediocre-to-bad vets simply so we don't have to play anyone younger than 29.
Anderson
There are zero good options in the SS FA class next year as well so it is a waste of time to deal with anyone I saw on the list.
I don't get it
cheap option for platoon
Cintron is reasonable defensively, switch hits (poorly admittedly), can play 2b or 3b as well, and would probably be half the price of keeping Miles for a similar role.
obviously going with this option we'd need to upgrade our offense somewhere else
Rolen
by 26thMan on Nov 29, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan
Now you're talking.
Hey Ray...
No worries
Back to reality: Remember when Ray Lankford was "the man" for the Cards several years in the 90s? Isn't that sad to think about? Ray Lankford was the team's star. Don't get me wrong, I love Ray (hence the name) but it is incredibly gloomy to think of him as the "go to guy" (similar to Pujols for the current team).
by Ray Lankford on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
That was also when
I'll very happily take Pujols!
Amen
Wasn't that also during the Tom Pagnozzi and "Hard Hittin' Mark Whitten" era? Oh, and wasn't Donovan Osborne our ace? Wow, I haven't thought about these names in a while.
by Ray Lankford on Nov 29, 2007 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I'd sure love to have
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ray Lankford was the best at spoiling pitches
Jack Wilson Rumors
Why not offer Eckstein arbitration?
It has to be a negotiating tactic, doesn't it
It says to Eckstein, "make your demands more reasonable or we're moving on...quickly! If you want a chance to return, we're going to get closer by 12/1 or we're going to fill your spot w/ someone else and you'll be left w/o a home." I hope that's it.
The absolute worst case scenario is giving up players for Wilson and Morris, taking on their salaries, and not offering Eck arbitration, thus denying us the supplemental pick.
I'll ask again
Forget for a minute that TLR probably won't play Ryan. Assume you're Mo, and assume that you think that if you tell TLR to play Ryan, he will.
Now you've got a shortstop for $500k or less that improves your defense (but probably leaves you looking for a leadoff hitter).
If you offer arbitration to Eck, you're probably gonna get stuck with a $4m bill. Wouldn't you like to avoid that?
I guess if you say the draft pick is worth, what'd we say yesterday, $3.5m or something it might be worth it not to "lose" the draft pick.
If 1 year contracts aren't bad...
If the demands of his agent are to be believed (4 yrs/$36m), he wouldn't accept anyway. Then we'd get the draft compensation.
If he accepts, we get a player that by almost all of our measurements is going to be a better 1 year solution than Izturis, for marginally similar cost.
So what's wrong with that?
"He wouldn't accept anyway..."
I agree
Another Angle
- You don't want Eckstein back.
- You want some other team to get him so that they will not be competing against you for another shortstop.
Eckstein is a type B free agent
from what I've read
by Birds on the Matt on Nov 29, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
I think Wilson might be a good idea but...
I got the opposite feeling from the Strauss
Now, if the bit about not offering him arbitration ends up being incorrect, then it very well could be a negotiating ploy.
a test for Mozeliak
Can anyone remind me how long
I'm happy with TLR as manager (not ecstatic, but tolerably happy). TLR as GM, however, scares me to death.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
overpaying for springer?
bringing in matt morris, otoh, would NOT be a reasonable idea. it might make it easier to get wilson w/o giving up too much in the way of prospects.
as for wilson, he's had two seasons of near .800 OPS hitting, although his career average is in the upper .600s. if he could post a .750 OPS or so, then he would be more or less worth it. .650 - .680, not worth it.
if ryan's not going to get a shot, my preferences are...
- offer arb. to eckstein
- try to get a reasonable deal for wilson
- officially panic (or just give in and give ryan a shot)
by willievinceterry on Nov 29, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Ditto on Springer
baffled
The assumption seems to be...
What we don't know is what the rest of the organization (scouts, minor-league managers/coaches, and even Mozeliak) thinks of Ryan's chances to become an everyday shortstop. According to various and sundry reports, Ryan's attitude and work habits aren't great... which I think led to TLR's "He smiles too much" comment. I translated that as, "Ryan's being goofy when he oughtta be working," a trait that wouldn't endear him to any manager.
I'm of the opinion that Ryan's not mature enough just to be given an everyday spot. If those in the front office think that Ryan will "top out" as a utility infielder, then the Cards need to acquire an "everyday" shortstop for 2008.
I'm not crazy about the options, either; but I also think TLR is not alone among the Cards' brass in their evaluation of Ryan. Now, if Ryan shows up for spring training ready to bust his butt and prove he can be an everyday player, so much the better... Chris Duncan took a spot in the lineup by hitting the hell out of the ball and working like a demon on his defensive deficiencies.
by The Ol Goaler on Nov 29, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Well put, OG
What would be great would be to have another young, low-cost option to compete w/ Ryan for the spot, rather than having to commit to a higher-priced veteran (see, Kennedy, Adam) come hell, highwater, and/or a sub-.600 OPS.
by willievinceterry on Nov 29, 2007 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
What harm is there in trying, though?
As for the stuff about him "smiling too much" and other bs like that, I couldn't care less. If he can play, he can play -- smiles or no. Let's find out.
I agree completely
The whole "smiling too much" comment was stupid...
After everything this team went through last season we needed someone to be having fun and smiling......
Give the kid a break hes having fun hitting the crap out of the ball in the big leagues let him smile.....
Would Tony rather have a depressed looking guy like Juan on the field?
Sorry for the Juan bashing but haven't heard anyone bash him in quite a while and as a dedicated VEB reader I thought it my duty...lol.
TR does not hate Ryan
arbitration
Big picture?
I'll drink to that (but not Falstaff).
I digress. I think LB's point is that we need to try to AVOID a hangover in 2009.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
well put
save your money till there's actually a premium beer on the shelf.
HoustonCardinal
There are zero good SS on the 2009 FA list. So even if we play Ryan at SS in 2008 and he does bad it's not like the FA SS at the end of 2008 are any good.
Thanks, but
And I'm not "looking to trade Anderson" either. I love Anderson and see him as Yadi's heir apparent. But, trading him for a good, young SS under the team's control for 5-6 years is an option worth exploring.
i was pretty drunk in '06
Qualities the team needs
I would submit that something that is sorely lacking is a couple of OBP machines to put in front of Pujols in the lineup. We might not be able to do much about that this year, but the prospect of batting Ryan/Izturis and Ankiel 1st and 2nd will lead to a lot of 2 out/nobody on situations for Albert, and is a criminal waste of his talent. I'm all for giving Ryan and Ankiel full-season shots next year to see what we've got but on a team that's an actual contender they would be hitting farther down in the lineup.
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions
Yes
scary in a good or bad way?
leadoff (eck / wilson / ryan)
edmonds (or duncan)
pujols
duncan (or ludwick)
rolen
ankiel (or ludwick)
molina
pitcher
2nd leadoff (kennedy / miles / ryan)
and yet i feel certain that there will be at least one significant change in that projected lineup by spring training.
by willievinceterry on Nov 29, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Long-term solution
Why not try Rasmus at SS?
Relax folks. I'm kidding.
let's convert a relief pitcher to shortstop
Or, let's convert the guy we drafted
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
The year our pitching was so horrendous
Rasmus
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 29, 2007 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Amen.
Let me float a crazy idea: Mr. Scott Rolen, your 2008 Cardinal leadoff man.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
That would be glorious
What I like about Rolen is that
And, even if his shoulder is permanently weakened, he'll still be a big doubles guy--a real asset from the 1 spot.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Rolen is also a smart baserunner.
I would give Ryan a shot at winning the job too
by MikeG on Nov 29, 2007 11:59 AM EST reply actions
mike, no surprise that we disagree
| ab | runs | hits | homers | rbi | avg | obp | slg | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| eckstein | 3772 | 556 | 1079 | 30 | 285 | .286 | .351 | .362 |
| wilson | 3734 | 458 | 1004 | 55 | 336 | .269 | .312 | .378 |
wilson hits more homers (although neither player hits a lot of them); that, plus the fact that wilson doesn't hit leadoff, has led to 50 more rbis. but eckstein is better in every other category --- 17 points better in batting avg., 40 points better in on-base pct, 100 more runs. and despite his deficit in homers, eck is reasonably close to wilson in slugging --- again, neither is good in this category, but they're about equally bad.
does this change your opinion that wilson is at least as good with the bat as david eckstein? again, i'm not pulling any of my fancy sabermetric tricks; just looking at good ol' back-of-the-baseball-card stats. and just to be clear --- i'm not suggesting that i think eckstein's a good hitter. he has one good offensive skill, on-base ability. but wilson doesn't even have that skill. he has no offensive skills that i can discern.
what am i missing?
That's a nice table
Wilson's one skill
Larry, thanks for the table
by MikeG on Nov 29, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
and why
Eckstein would cost 1 year's salary at $4-6 M.
Wilson would cost players/prospects + more than $14 M. Plus it would cost us another year of below-average play at SS. Is Wilson 2 1/2-3 times better than Eckstein? No way. At best, they're about equal.
That is false
David Eckstein has cost his team (with offense and defense combined) almost 15 runs.
There is a 30 run difference between the two players.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, so
It's per year
So last year, Wilson was worth 3 wins and Eckstein was worth -3 wins. There was a 6 win difference between the two SS.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
I used this in my original diary
http://fireleyland.blogspot.com/2007/10/carlos-guillen-his-replacements-and.html
He figured that over the last 4 years, Wilson's weighted runs created average was 68 (average is 67). Using the same method, Eckstein's was 71.5 or 72.
In reality to Eckstein, though, over the last 4 years he has RC totals of 61, 106, 61 and 58. He is basically being carried by his 2005 season. Wilson, over that stretch has put up 87, 64, 59 and 72.
Anyways, using Eckstein's 'blip' season as part of his average, he creates 5 runs better than the average SS offensively. Wilson was 1 run better.
Defensively, Wilson was worth +15 runs last year. Eckstein was -5.7.
Putting the two sides of the game together, overall Wilson is worth 83 runs, Eckstein was 66.3 (67 rounded up).
Average MLB SS created 67 runs.
Eckstein was MLB average.
Wilson was +16.
Sorry about the stuff above. I had to go back and recalculate everything just to be sure.
Anyways, Wilson should average out to be worth about 16 runs over replacement value.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
this is part of the problem
Here are the totals
Eckstein (2004-2007)
4.09
5.20
4.48
5.17
average: 4.7
Wilson (2004-2007)
5.41
3.68
3.91
5.44
average: 4.6
Now we need a baseline for what the average MLB SS would produce over that 4 year span.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
if we go back 4 years
if we use BRAR --- which is also in the context of outs, plus it's park- and league-adjusted ---, eckstein's 3 runs better per year w/ the stick over the last 4 years, per a 10/20/30/40 weighting.
i also have to point out that wilson is only that close to eckstein because we're taking an unorthodox 4-year sample, which captures wilson's strong 2004 season. if we take the more standard 3-year sample --- which is what tangotiger uses in marcels --- and weight it 15/35/50, eckstein comes out as 5 runs a year better than wilson per BRAR.
Eck! Wilson!
See, I bought into lboros' table. And now you're killing me.
Anyways, if a run is still worth $200,000
If Eckstein would get $4 M via arbitration, then Wilson would be worth $10.2 M.
Of course, this all assumes you put value in runs saved ("created") by defense.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
HL, how do you arrive at those ###s?
I had to go back and check
With that in mind (based on RC and not RC/27), Eckstein is worth $ 0 more than the average MLB SS. Wilson would be worth $4.0 M more than the average MLB SS.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
i still can't agree w/ you hardcore
the more advanced metrics (BRAR, VORP, win shares) all have eckstein as a few runs better than wilson, using the weighted avg. wilson makes up the difference with his glove, but you're overestimating that effect because you're only using 1 year of fielding data --- last year, when there was a whopping 20-run split between the two players. if we use a bigger sample size, eckstein holds his own w/ the glove. in 2006, for example, eckstein was better than wilson per all three advanced fielding system (PMR, UZR, and dewan's +/- system). and this summer mgl published all his data from 2003 through 2007, and they show eckstein to be slightly more valuable on defense than wilson over that longer time frame.
i'll concede that the two players are close. but since wilson is locked up for more years and more dollars, that makes him less valuable than eckstein.
and neither one, imho, has enough marginal ability over brendan ryan to justify the $$$$ it would take to sign them.
A little while ago
THT uses a different baseline for "replacement level" and Wilson was 3 or 5 WSAB ahead of Eckstein over 4 years. This, of course, includes defense. This means that, according to THT, Wilson was 1 - 1.7 wins better than Eckstein TOTAL over 4 years -- less than 1/2 a win per year.
By any definition, I'm still standing by my assertion that Wilson and Eckstein are ABOUT equal. In any case, there's nowhere near the difference to justify the enormous salary differential + the prospects/players that would have to be traded in order to bring Wilson to St.L. It certainly doesn't justify Wilson over Ryan at $500,000 per year.
They are only equal
That's like saying David Eckstein 2005 is equal to Jack Wilson 2004. That doesn't really matter because neither is going to perform like that again, especiall Eckstein.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
Wilson is younger
I'd really like to see the two stack up against each other defensively since 2004, year by year. I have a hard time believing Eckstein is even close to Wilson.
Also, when talking about all this, to think Eckstein and Wilson have the same value is to believe that in 2008 they will be the same player. They likelihood of Eckstein being the same type of player is a lot less likely than Wilson.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
what a silly discussion
i know you like wilson, but his 2007 season doesn't impress me. as of july 31, his line read .252 / .303 / .342 --- a .645 ops, which is aaron miles territory. in 2006 his ops was .686; in 2005, it was .662. so for 2 years and 4 months, wilson carried an ops in the mid .600s, and then he went nuts after august 1st last year and batted .410 for a couple of months.
which do you think is more reflective of his true ability --- the 2 years 4 months of .650ish ops, or the 2 months of a .400 batting average?
I don't like Jack Wilson
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough
Update: Pirates would get Reyes, BThomp, Tyler J
My take: WAY too much to give up for these two players, especially if we're also eating salary. Trading away this much cheap and flexible pitching for a 1 year stopgap and a SS whose skill set we can find on the cheap would be a huge black mark for Mozeliak.
Take out Morris...
That is bizarre
by SpringfieldDude on Nov 29, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
The article
Yeesh...
Mike Maroth at $3 million pro-rated for '07 and under control for a couple seasons cost Chris Lambert. Morris at this point isn't much better than everyone thought Maroth was last July and he's 3.5 times as expensive. He isn't worth Reyes, TJ, or Thompson, let alone some combination.
As for Wilson, his top comps are Royce Clayton, Tony Kubek, Christian Guzman, and Neifi. Nuff said...
I'll be pissed if the Cards take either the Wilson or Morris contract.
Morris isn't much better than Maroth?
Morris' problem isn't that he is a god awful pitcher, his problem seems to be that in the second half of the last 4 seasons his ERA goes from mid-3.00's/low 4.00's to Low/mid 5.00's.
He wears down as the seasons goes along. He's as good a pitcher as their is in the NL in the first half of the season.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
so theytrade
Morris seems to give up the long ball quite a bit, I'm not sure the fasination with bringing him back
If we trade Reyes
And Johnson -- he has value. Wilson and Morris just don't -- not at their ages/salaries. I can't believe that Mo would really consider this trade. That may be what the Pirates want, but we can't honestly be considering it.
The only way you do that is being sure
Mitchell Report
Mitchell Report
The Pirates
by Toddius396 on Nov 29, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, if you have a player you don't want,
I tend to agree
It's true that we're competing w/ the other teams in our division and getting better while making them better may not help us overall. But, in the age of the WC, the truth is that we're competing w/ everyone in NL. Are we going to shut the rest of the NL out of the trading process and only trade w/ the AL? Besides, if we're truly competing w/ the Pirates, we're worse off than I thought we were.
The NL Central...
I don't know if this has already been discussed, but 4 years and $46 million for Francisco Cordero is absolute lunacy. Sure the guy's pretty good, but he's definitely not dominant.
Ed Wade, Doug Melvin, Jim Hendry, the new guy in Pittsburgh, Wayne Krivsky, and John Mozeliak...
That is a pretty thin collection of GM talent for one division.
Yeah, much worse than the AL East
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I would argue that...
ummmm
true
Sure Stinebrener could have paid less for Pavano and Wright, but heck it did not stop him from signing ARod and others so it does not matter unless one is really concerned if George makes $10 mill profit vs. $50 mill profit.
SP trade target hint from Bernie
I threw this out off the top of my head.
Randy Johnson - yeah, right
Mike Hampton - not sure he qualifies as "good in the recent past"
Mark Prior - can't see the Cubs trading to the Cards
Jose Contreras
Cliff Lee
Chris Capuano
Barry Zito - eep!
Kevin Millwood
Maybe Reyes for Capuano to give them both a change of venue?
I'd take Willis or Morris over
Zito is out of the question.
Cliff Lee and Mark Prior make some sense as cheap experiments.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Bernie just said it wasn't Cliff Lee
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
My guess
i was big on padilla
Padilla
by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 29, 2007 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
my guess is padilla or millwood
I know Millwood's owed an extra year, but he has much more upside than Padilla -- and he stunk last year too.
yeah
Or I may be getting him confused with someone else...
I wonder if there's a connection
how poor is poor?
Jeff Suppan 12-12 4.62 ERA this year is about his career norms but for the last 3 seasons before that he had a closer to 4 ERA and much better W-L ratio. I know those are bad stats to use as rating figures but this was quick and dirty.
I miss Soup
My Guess:
He didn't have all that bad a season, but it was a disappointing one coming in the first year of his contract extension. Chris Duncan is exactly the sort of player Shapiro will be looking to add.
They've got more quality starters than spots in the rotation.
You can probably scratch Johnson, Hampton, and Prior off that list since they are coming off down years due to injury, a gamble Mo isn't in the mood to pursue. (Although I think Hampton would be a worthwhile bet, in spite of his recent hammy strain.)
Save the money
Here is the thing: Bill DeWitt got even richer last year. Through the agreement with MLB.com, every MLB team got cut a check for $30 M. That's $30 M that didn't cost DeWitt a dime to make.
How far did he bump up payroll for this year? Well, we are at $99 M right now. By the end of 2007, Bernie said team payroll was around $96 M.
DeWitt has promised that payroll could go to $115 M. That would be an increase of around $19 M. Not a bad return from what he was paid for having a webpage.
But we have no assurance the Cardinals will spend that much money. If they sign a SS and trade for a SP, payroll may only go up $10 M (a third of what DeWitt was given).
The MLBPA is raising a big stink because the owners are treating the $30 M like it is a 401k and putting that money away for a rainy day (which may never come). Seeing as the Cardinals view deferred money as current day payroll, DeWitt is getting the best of both worlds. Money he is given today by MLB.com is being put into his bank for a rainy day and money he doesn't have to pay players for 10 years is being counted as part of this years budget.
So, he's paying players their deferred money with money his 'business' has already set aside.
No wonder he is a billionaire.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 2:04 PM EST reply actions
barring a trade for/reupping of Santana or Willis,
But otherwise, what is that money going to get you, other than a bunch of gambles that are unlikely to pay off?
I don't know who you spend the money on
I guess my whole point is that, when people say "Don't waste the money on Wilson/Morris", they truly don't tie up much payroll beyond 2008. Wilson is on the books for 2009 but I would hope that he'd still be able to perform.
The more players like Morris/Wilson, etc cost us in dollars, the less they cost in players sent the other way.
DeWitt has the money in the coufers. I'd rather overpay Morris and Wilson next year and Wilson in 2009 than be stuck with a middle of the road FA for 3 or 4 years.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Rolen
I'll concede that Morris for 1 year is better than Lohse for 4, even if we have to trade something for Morris. But that still doesn't make it a good option. It's just really bad, and not god-awful.
Edmonds, McGwire, Rolen
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
That's
I have no faith that if there is a big name FA that STL can bag that person. They have not shown the abiltiy to do so the last 10 years so it's hard to imagine anything will change.
Besides there is no one really exciting in the FA crop if you look at SP & SS. There are some SP who's name sounds good but if you look at age and think about length of deal they may want it's not good.
They were all entering free agency
They certainly gave up the right to be a free agent in exchange for a high dollar contract with the Cards. If you don't want to count them, that's up to you. They're high-dollar contracts that the Cards' organization signed. It's silly to discount them if you're trying to prove that the Cards are cheap and always have been.
Cardinals had exclusive rights to bargain
The most recent bidding wars I can remember the Cardinals getting into (Burnett, Renteria, etc) they back off before overextending.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
And they had the right
Welcome to 2008
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
I thought
Adam Kennedy and Kent Bottenfield for Edmonds?
Edmonds was traded to the Cards in 2000
I agree BUT
Don't get me wrong - I know that ain't costing $30m, of course.
6 man rotation?
Maybe we should think about something like that for 08.
Matty Mo (if we were to acquire him) seems to wear down as the season goes on. Looper definitely had some periods where fatigue set in. Mulder's recovery is well documented here. Perhaps Wainwright and Pinero should work a standard 5 day pattern while the other 3 work 6 day patterns. Swing in a bullpen start or a swing guy (Brad Thompson) for the occasional need for a 6th starter. Keep your best arms pitching their best.
Perhaps by thinking creatively we could maximize the skills of our pitchers.
Good thinking. And the 2008
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
I always thought Marquis would have been better
That's what Whitey did with Andujar
Check it out:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/1982.shtml
another of bernie's comments
http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5145532&highlight=#5145532
by johnstonburg on Nov 29, 2007 3:57 PM EST reply actions
I used to appreciate...
And there's always the possibility that
Bernie
If everyone went back to "journalistic basics" there wouldn't be a vivaelbirdos site or a place for you to comment.
And Bernie isn't "feeding" information to help the Cardinals brass. He doesnt work for them.
Bernie's...
SS position
Nothing proves to me that Ryan is ready for fulltime duty. Therefore, Izturis would be the best option to do the platoon route.
I would prefer Jack wilson but only at a discounted rate.
by tknup on Nov 29, 2007 4:50 PM EST reply actions
question
It got some good feedback but not a huge topic.
My question today amid the morris return stuff is if you played ball no matter how long ago what card/ex card did you want to be
since we can't all be the stud my fav was to try and play like Rex"headfirst" hudler...Although not the greatest Bird i loved the way he played all out, and when i played i knew that if i played like that i could feel satisfied knowing i gave my all...He's not your bigest statistical Bird of all time but i loved the guy..
I most be older than you. I was
although I know who Curt is
thanks for the reply i was sure more might bite at it..
Sorry if this was posted already...
The smoking gun has released the tapes from Larussa's DUI arrest.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/1129071larussa1.html
Again, sorry if this has been posted. If this post isn't in good taste by all means delete it if need be.
Love the idea of Morris
The trouble is that fat contract the Bucs gave him. They would have to eat some, trade or no trade.
It is rumored there is a mystery team in on the
P.S. I am not saying for a one year rental. You have to sign Santana.
We already re-upped Carp
Colin Cowherd on his show yesterday
Yanks..
Jon Heyman said yesterday(a few days ago) the Twins would want Melky Cabrera plus one of Hughes/Chamberlain/Kennedy.
Herds point..
Yanks haven't done well with pitching signings or trades of late..and Santana coming off an off year with arm problems? Your giving up a ton. Yes he is one of the best when healthy but if your the yanks whose Docs passed Pavano you have to be weary..
BoSox now entering and supposedly leading(shock shock..the annual biddign war between the teams)
colin cowherd
understood
by punchinjudy on Nov 30, 2007 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
And then
+1
I think he just likes insulting people.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 30, 2007 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
besides picking him apart
plus herd will go on rants nothing to do with sports
by punchinjudy on Nov 30, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
the local cbs tv station in central ohio
recently they started running a new tv commercial promoting cowass's radio show. personally i've only actually listened to maybe 30 seconds of his show. but the audio clips alone that they use in this tv spot is all a person needs to hear to know that show is one of the worst wastes of air time in the long & storied history of sports talk radio. whoever the hell this cowass person is knows nothing about sports.



















