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Around SBN: Nevin Shapiro Vows To Bring Down Miami

short list

anybody interested in a VEB meetup at a cardinal game next summer? see alex fritz's diary. a number of other SBN blogs have held events of this type, and they always seem to be a hit. lot of interest so far; plus, fritz has committed to entertaining us all with either a standup routine or a powerpoint presentation.

let's do a little parsing of joe strauss' article yesterday about the options the cardinals are considering at shortstop. the nut graph says "the Cardinals continue to explore alternatives that include the Baltimore Orioles' Miguel Tejada, the Pittsburgh Pirates' Jack Wilson and free agent Cesar Izturis." how realistic are those alternatives? how desirable are they?

miguel tejada: according to strauss, "a club source described as the chances of landing Tejada as `slim to none.'" agreed. in an interview at MLB Trade Rumors this morning, baltimore sun beat writer jeff zrebiec says the orioles want "two high-level prospects" for him; the cardinals don't have two guys like that to spare. however, both los angeles teams can afford that price, both of them are looking for right-handed power at 3d base (and can move tejada there), and at least one will fail to land miguel cabrera. ergo that team (or teams) will surely trump any offer the cards can muster. moreover, the orioles are standing pat until cabrera gets traded, and the cards appear to be in a bit of a hurry to get this hole filled. so forget about tejada.

cesar izturis: should be available for cheap, which is his prime appeal. he's a free agent, so wouldn't cost any prospects; if they signed him to a 1-year deal for, say, $3m, i could live w/ it. he'd make a reasonable platoon partner with brendan ryan; the switch-hitting izturis actually isn't so terrible as a left-handed hitter --- .272 / .318 / .352 as a lefty since 2004, vs .258 / .295 / .323 as a right-hander. with proper platoon management pujols batting behind him, a .330 on-base pct wouldn't be out of the question. if you got that, plus a few stolen bases and superior fielding for your $3m, you'd make out ok. indeed, as a stopgap he's probably about on a par with eckstein ---- weaker hitter but better in all other phases (younger, faster, healthier, better fielder).

jack wilson: this guy has been on the block since midsummer, when he nearly got dealt to the tigers; i mined MLB Trade Rumors' archives to reconstruct the way that thing went down. tim brown of yahoo sports started gauging wilson's trade value as early as june 14: "I asked an American League baseball operations man what kind of interest there would be in Wilson in a trade. His report: `Wilson is a solid everyday shortstop who's got value, especially defensively.'" a month later the blue jays (who were still in playoff contention but were playing royce clayton at short) inquired; dave littlefield asked for troy glaus, and the jays were so annoyed they dropped their pursuit of wilson altogether. as the trade deadline approached the tigers came calling, and for more than two weeks they haggled with littlefield. one report in the pittsburgh post-gazette said the pirates would have received two of detroit's top six prospects, "including an unnamed pitcher ready to join the major-league staff." a subsequent article identified the pitcher in question: "The deal on the table at the July 31 non-waiver deadline would have netted the Pirates one of two 21-year-old pitchers, Jair Jurrjens or Dallas Trahern, and another prospect in the Detroit system." jurrjens was still in double A at that time; he ended up making 7 late-season starts for the tigers, then got traded with another prospect last month to atlanta for edgar renteria. mitch boggs would be an analogous pitcher in the st louis system.

the pitching-rich tigers can afford to lose an arm like that; the cardinals can't. moreover, the tigers --- a championship-ready team with very narrow needs --- might actually benefit from a one-dimensional player like wilson, whereas the cards' lot isn't improved by an expensive, good-field no-hit shortstop. now, it's true that the pirates are under new management; they should be easier to deal with now that dave littlefield has departed. but then, wilson's value has only gone up since the near-miss w/ detroit. his ops was in the .660 range at the trade deadline, but he ended the season with 2 months of flukishly monstrous hitting (.409 / .467 / .697 after august 1), creating the false impression that he can actually hit. between that and his highly regarded glove, the pirates have no reason simply to give wilson away. but he's not good enough (particularly at his salary) to justify the expenditure of any young talent. the cards' expressions of interest are mildly worrisome; even a fringe-y prospect like joe mather would be too high a price, imho.

but i don't take their flirtation w/ wilson at face value, and here's why ----

david eckstein: quoting the strauss article:

Mozeliak refrained from offering the club's course of action regarding Eckstein, but it is widely believed within the organization that no offer of arbitration will be forthcoming. . . .

"A lot of it is dictated by him and his agent," Mozeliak said. "Clearly right now we have to make sure we're in the same ballpark. It's a difference in how you value (a player) that can slow the process down."

that last sentence makes me wonder if the cards' public pursuit of other shortstops is at least partly a negotiating strategy aimed at eckstein, meant to pressure him and his agent to lower their asking price. his market already is almost nonexistent; i've heard the padres might be interested in signing him to play 2b, but that's it. by signaling that he is merely one among a range of choices for the stl shortstop job, mozeliak implies that eckstein needs the cards more than the cards need eckstein. i hope that's what explains it; if they're serious about wilson, that's not a promising indicator re the new regime.

let me make it clear that i don't really like any of these options. i don't see any of them as being that much better (if at all) than brendan ryan, and if i were in charge i'd just give him the job and spend my energy / resources addressing other positions. indeed, i don't agree w/ the whole notion of using position to analyze the team's needs. simply plugging in the best available veterans at shortstop, right-fielder, and starting pitcher won't get the team anywhere; at best, it'll extend the reign of mediocrity for another year. the focus should be on acquiring players who have the qualities the team needs. the qualities the cards should be looking for (imho) are youth, speed, upside potential, and payroll flexibility -- regardless of position. it so happens that the cards have a shortstop --- brendan ryan --- who exemplifies all those qualities; izturis offers the same, to a lesser extent. either one would suffice as a short-term strategy; they might not get the cards back to the top of the league, but they won't keep the cards from getting there in 2 or 3 years. that's their appeal.

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If you had seen Izturis play with the Cubs
last year, you would not say "I could live with that."

I am seriously not exaggerating when I say that he seemed to make an error in every game he played (though obviously that's not true).  I don't know what his error total was, but he was CONSTANTLY bobbling a ball or missing one I think he should have gotten or something like that.  I actually felt bad for the guy - it was hard to watch.  

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 10:04 AM EST reply actions  

he only had 8 errors last year
in 90 games at ss; over 150 games, that'd work out to 13 errors. his fielding pct was .973, which isn't terrible for a shortstop. the enhanced zone-rating metrics had him as average; ditto pinto's PMR.

i watched eckstein play ss last year, and i can't live with that; i'll take my chances w/ the former gold-glover.

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow
Only eight? That's not as bad as he looked. Must be something about his demeanor then--he did look clueless damn near every game I saw (and I see at least 3-4 Cubs games a week). I dunno. I'm pretty sure that he'll end up being an object of scorn if he plays for The Birds, though. Only 8 errors or no, he's the type of player Cards fans love to hate--no consistency or that magic intangible, "hustle." At least Eck tries so hard he projects the illusion of being better than he is. I'd still just give it to Ryan and move on to something else. Though I guess if Ryan got hurt or falls apart it would leave them in a pickle.  

by rockin redbird on Nov 29, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I do find the stats side of the
Izturis argument interesting.   He was really awful to watch, yet stats would say otherwise.

Unless he were still injured last year, I just don't see how we can refer to him as a gold-glover.

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

he sounds like
Juan Encarnacion.

Hard to watch, but looking back had decent numbers?

I always had liked him with LA

by jealousblues on Nov 29, 2007 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

He was
just godawful. He did come up with a couple key hits in a few games, but he looked totally lost in the field. My Cubfan pals hated his guts and are so happy to see him gone. I'll be pissed if he's in Cardinal Red next year. If Eck won't play for peanuts, just give it to Ryan and move along.

by rockin redbird on Nov 29, 2007 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Izturis
would make the Cardinals already questionable offense even worse.

If we signed Izturis and Tony played him at SS and Kennedy at 2nd for over 100 games we are going to be one of the worst offensive teams in baseball. Mark it down.

We better hope Rolen has a huge comeback and Duncan/Edmonds can stay healthy becuase we won't get ANY run production from a guy like Izturis. The guy has ZERO pop in his bat.

by KYCards on Nov 29, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

i know
but the team is bound and determined to find an "established" shortstop. if the choice is between trading prospects for 2 years of jack wilson, or signing izturis for 1 year, i'll take the latter.

these players are so bad that 1 year of them is more valuable than 2 . . . .

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

you know you are not blogging about a good team
when you have to write an entire post about who the least crappy option is at a premium position

by tdawg on Nov 29, 2007 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

This will help benchmark...
This whole SS situation will be an important data point for evaluating Mozeliak's skill set. I'll withhold judgment until we have a definitive resolultion, but so far what I'm seeing from Mo is:
  • a lot of posturing in the papers
  • unimaginative trade ideas
  • discouraging FA solutions
None of these offer a great deal of encouragement. Maybe Mo's got an ace up his sleeve. Either way, this will be an early indicator of how solution-oriented and imaginative he is. Of course, this could also be some tail-wag-dog with TLR wanting veteran players.

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah
Unfortunately, you're right about the "established" vet point of view. Guess we're just gonna have to hold our noses and deal with it.

by rockin redbird on Nov 29, 2007 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Wilson is just
quite simply, a bad idea.  He is, if at all, only marginally better than Ryan for a much higher price tag.  But we already know that Tony doesn't want to play Ryan so we're going to end up w/ somebody else (a vet of some sort).  I'd take Eck or Izturis or Uribe for 1 year over 2 years and $14+ M of Jack Wilson every day.

Somebody in one of the comments or diaries a few days ago (and I apologize for not crediting you, b/c you deserve it) suggested trading Bryan Anderson for Jed Lowrie of the Red Sox.  The Sox'll need a C in a year or 2 and we need a SS now.  I'm no fan of trading Anderson but the prospect of adding a good, young SS, whether he's ready now or in half a year, is intriguing.  

It's certainly an idea worth considering and would be a much better idea than adding any of these mediocre-to-bad vets simply so we don't have to play anyone younger than 29.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 10:15 AM EST reply actions  

Anderson
I like your idea of shopping Anderson.  The Cardinals are going to have to give up something decent to get a good SS who is about MLB ready.

There are zero good options in the SS FA class next year as well so it is a waste of time to deal with anyone I saw on the list.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't get it
Why would you pay Izturis or Eckstein $3M when you've already got Ryan for <$500K? There's absolutely no value to be gained by the extra expense. It's not my money, so I don't really care, except to the extent that it impacts the team's ability to acquire other talent.

by blove121 on Nov 29, 2007 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

cheap option for platoon
especially given the recent trend of grabbing up cast-offs from second division AL central teams, the White Sox just released Alex Cintron.  Since there doesn't seem to be alot cost effective options available at ss, he might be a cheap option to platoon with Ryan.

Cintron is reasonable defensively, switch hits (poorly admittedly), can play 2b or 3b as well, and would probably be half the price of keeping Miles for a similar role.

obviously going with this option we'd need to upgrade our offense somewhere else

by vances law on Nov 29, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Rolen
might have something to say about playing next to Alex Cintron.

by 26thMan on Nov 29, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan
I'm with you, lboros.  I don't understand why this is so confusing: unless we get Tejada or, by virtue of some miracle, Cabrera, the starting job should be Ryan's.  The scrap heapers we are discussing above, Eckstein included, are no better than Ryan, and Ryan is cheaper. Even if the scrap heapers are slightly better (doubtful), they certainly are not so much better that it justifies the salary disparities (3 mill for Izturis???).  I'd rather have that 3 mill put toward lowering beer prices at the stadium . . .

by Ray Lankford on Nov 29, 2007 10:27 AM EST reply actions  

Now you're talking.
A good strategy for a rebuilding year.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Nov 29, 2007 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey Ray...
I'd been wondering what you've been doing since you retired. Glad to see you posting on VEB! Thanks for being one of the few highlights for me during the early 90s of Cardinals baseball.

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

No worries
Since I retired, I started practicing law in STL.  Who knew?  I just wish Duncan wouldn't tarnish my number with his caveman-esque outfield play; its embarassing.

Back to reality: Remember when Ray Lankford was "the man" for the Cards several years in the 90s?  Isn't that sad to think about?  Ray Lankford was the team's star.  Don't get me wrong, I love Ray (hence the name) but it is incredibly gloomy to think of him as the "go to guy" (similar to Pujols for the current team).

by Ray Lankford on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

That was also when
we thought Felix Jose was going to be the next Bo Jackson. And Todd Zeile led the team with 11 homers.

I'll very happily take Pujols!

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Amen
to that.  

Wasn't that also during the Tom Pagnozzi and "Hard Hittin' Mark Whitten" era?  Oh, and wasn't Donovan Osborne our ace?  Wow, I haven't thought about these names in a while.

by Ray Lankford on Nov 29, 2007 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, I'd sure love to have
1994-98 Ray Lankford on this team right now, with his OPS+ of 121, 129, 123, 159 and 143. And the 1997-98 Ray Lankford was a helluva player.  He would have easily been the second-best Cardinal hitter in 2006-07.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Ray Lankford was the best at spoiling pitches
it seems like every at bat he would go through 12 to 13 pitches. Really ate up the opposing pitchers pitch counts.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 29, 2007 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Jack Wilson Rumors
From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette today with the added bonus of throwing Matt Morris' name into the mix.

by bdief on Nov 29, 2007 10:43 AM EST reply actions  

Why not offer Eckstein arbitration?
Hey folks, I'm looking for help from the collective intelligence gathered here. Speculate for a sec - why would the Cardinals publicly say that they won't offer Eckstein arbitration? Is that a negotiation tactic to try force a move from his agent? Doesn't make sense to me at all. IMHO, offering Eckstein arbitration would be one of the few positive outcomes of this SS situation.

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

It has to be a negotiating tactic, doesn't it
b/c not offering him arbitration is a ridiculously bad idea -- unless they have someone better in mind.  The only people fitting that description are Tejada (probably no chance) or a good young SS (probably 1/2 the chance of Tejada).  

It says to Eckstein, "make your demands more reasonable or we're moving on...quickly!  If you want a chance to return, we're going to get closer by 12/1 or we're going to fill your spot w/ someone else and you'll be left w/o a home."  I hope that's it.  

The absolute worst case scenario is giving up players for Wilson and Morris, taking on their salaries, and not offering Eck arbitration, thus denying us the supplemental pick.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll ask again
why is it ridiculous?

Forget for a minute that TLR probably won't play Ryan.  Assume you're Mo, and assume that you think that if you tell TLR to play Ryan, he will.

Now you've got a shortstop for $500k or less that improves your defense (but probably leaves you looking for a leadoff hitter).  

If you offer arbitration to Eck, you're probably gonna get stuck with a $4m bill.  Wouldn't you like to avoid that?  

I guess if you say the draft pick is worth, what'd we say yesterday, $3.5m or something it might be worth it not to "lose" the draft pick.  

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

If 1 year contracts aren't bad...
Then why not have Eckstein at $4m?

If the demands of his agent are to be believed (4 yrs/$36m), he wouldn't accept anyway. Then we'd get the draft compensation.

If he accepts, we get a player that by almost all of our measurements is going to be a better 1 year solution than Izturis, for marginally similar cost.

So what's wrong with that?

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

"He wouldn't accept anyway..."
Eckstein has been testing the free agent market for more than a month now and has found next to nothing. If he doesn't think he has a good chance of signing for a deal he wants with another team, he'll accept it.

by Forsch31 on Nov 29, 2007 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

So....
Why don't we just offer him arbitration now? Doesn't that create a deadline to work from? Sort of force their hand?

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree
"not offering him arbitration is a ridiculously bad idea" He BETTER have something up his sleeve, because if Eck gets away (without being offered arb) and we're stuck with Izturis and no draft picks, I'm going to be very disappointed in the way they've handled this.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Nov 29, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Another Angle
Why would you PUBLICLY not offer arbitration to Eckstein? You are letting other clubs know that they will not have to give up draft picks. This makes Eckstein more attractive to other teams. Why would you do that?
  1. You don't want Eckstein back.
  2. You want some other team to get him so that they will not be competing against you for another shortstop.
This is the most likely scenario, IMHO.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 29, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Eckstein is a type B free agent
No one will have to give up draft picks to sign him.  If we offer him arbitration, we'll gain a supplemental round pick, but that pick does not come from the signing team.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 29, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

from what I've read
the hang-up is the timeline. We have to offer him arb by the 1st but he doesn't have to make a decision till the 7th and that screws with Mo's plans at the meetings. If eck waits till the 7th to make his decision, Mo's basically in a holding pattern during the meetings because an already complicated and muddy picture just got crapped upon.

by Birds on the Matt on Nov 29, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Wilson might be a good idea but...
I also thought Kennedy would be a good idea.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 29, 2007 10:52 AM EST reply actions  

I got the opposite feeling from the Strauss
article.  If they won't consider Ryan as an option, Eck at a one year deal seems the best possible scenario.  If they're not willing to offer him arbitration, then that tells me they are seriously considering other options.  This can't be a negotiating strategy.  It's not like Eck is going to sign before the arbitration deadline, it's not in his best interest.

Now, if the bit about not offering him arbitration ends up being incorrect, then it very well could be a negotiating ploy.

by outraged on Nov 29, 2007 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

a test for Mozeliak
When Mozeliak was given the GM job, he proclaimed at his press conference that he is "his own man".  Mo's told us he is NOT a TLR "yes" man.  First moves by Mo, he picked up Izzy's option and overpaid for Springer.  Then overpaid for Pineiro  TLR is fanatical about veterans at the back end of his pen.  Duncan is fanatical about vets in the rotation.  We need another starter (besides Pineiro) so it would have made more sense to sign just one of Izzy / Springer.  But reasonable minds can differ on those moves (although the Pineiro deal was bad).  SS is different.  Here is a chance for Mo to show us he is indeed his own man and possesses a vision for the Cardinal future that does not entail a roster junked up with broken down, overpaid vets.  TLR hates Brendan Ryan's backside.  TLR is nothing if not petty with younger players.  He wants a vet at SS.  None are available to the Cards who truly represent a value upgrade over Ryan (price v. performance).  If Mo trades for Wilson (without Pitt eating a significant portion of the contract)  or gives Eck a multi-year deal, then Mo has given in to TLR to the detriment of the team.  Very curious how this plays out.

by jjray on Nov 29, 2007 10:59 AM EST reply actions  

Can anyone remind me how long
Moz' contract is for?  If he's signed for 3 and TLR is for 2, I hope Moz takes that fact as a hint and acts accordingly.

I'm happy with TLR as manager (not ecstatic, but tolerably happy). TLR as GM, however, scares me to death.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

overpaying for springer?
have you seen some of the other contracts for relief pitchers this offseason? $12 million / 3 years for j.c. romero? nearly $20 million / 4 years for scott linebrink? springer was better than both of them last year, and bringing him back to solidify a late-game bullpen that was one of last year's few strong points seemed like a reasonable enough move to me.

bringing in matt morris, otoh, would NOT be a reasonable idea. it might make it easier to get wilson w/o giving up too much in the way of prospects.

as for wilson, he's had two seasons of near .800 OPS hitting, although his career average is in the upper .600s. if he could post a .750 OPS or so, then he would be more or less worth it. .650 - .680, not worth it.

if ryan's not going to get a shot, my preferences are...

  1. offer arb. to eckstein
  2. try to get a reasonable deal for wilson
  3. officially panic (or just give in and give ryan a shot)

by willievinceterry on Nov 29, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Ditto on Springer
The Springer deal is a steal in terms of both years and salary after seeing what Linebrink got. This is a good deal for the Birds.

by Hungry Jack on Nov 29, 2007 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

baffled
i'm baffled at the suggestion that we overpaid for springer. his numbers last year were incredible, he's a workhorse, its a one year deal, and its "only" 3.5mil. that is nothing in today's mlb economics. he gets more bad swings than anyone i've seen out of the cards bullpen save josh kinney down the stretch in 06.

by indakind on Nov 29, 2007 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The assumption seems to be...
(at least here in the VEB community) that only Tony LaRussa is against playing Brendan Ryan as an everyday shortstop. But is that really the case?

What we don't know is what the rest of the organization (scouts, minor-league managers/coaches, and even Mozeliak) thinks of Ryan's chances to become an everyday shortstop. According to various and sundry reports, Ryan's attitude and work habits aren't great... which I think led to TLR's "He smiles too much" comment. I translated that as, "Ryan's being goofy when he oughtta be working," a trait that wouldn't endear him to any manager.

I'm of the opinion that Ryan's not mature enough just to be given an everyday spot. If those in the front office think that Ryan will "top out" as a utility infielder, then the Cards need to acquire an "everyday" shortstop for 2008.

I'm not crazy about the options, either; but I also think TLR is not alone among the Cards' brass in their evaluation of Ryan. Now, if Ryan shows up for spring training ready to bust his butt and prove he can be an everyday player, so much the better... Chris Duncan took a spot in the lineup by hitting the hell out of the ball and working like a demon on his defensive deficiencies.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 29, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Well put, OG
There are too many anti-Tony conspiracy theorists on here sometimes.

What would be great would be to have another young, low-cost option to compete w/ Ryan for the spot, rather than having to commit to a higher-priced veteran (see, Kennedy, Adam) come hell, highwater, and/or a sub-.600 OPS.

by willievinceterry on Nov 29, 2007 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

What harm is there in trying, though?
I'm not sold on Ryan as an everyday player either but is it likely he's going to be materially worse than any of the other options available -- except for Tejada?  Why not find out if he can do it?

As for the stuff about him "smiling too much" and other bs like that, I couldn't care less.  If he can play, he can play -- smiles or no.  Let's find out.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree completely
Good post Houston I agree completely.
The whole "smiling too much" comment was stupid...
After everything this team went through last season we needed someone to be having fun and smiling......
Give the kid a break hes having fun hitting the crap out of the ball in the big leagues let him smile.....
Would Tony rather have a depressed looking guy like Juan on the field?
Sorry for the Juan bashing but haven't heard anyone bash him in quite a while and as a dedicated VEB reader I thought it my duty...lol.

by Calhoun on Nov 30, 2007 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

TR does not hate Ryan
If he did, he wouldn't have played him for 67 games and last season and essentially talk about him as if he's already on the roster next year rather than being in Memphis. He just doesn't want to hand the starting job to a rookie who committed 10 errors in 231 chances (3 errors in 99 for SS, a .970 FPCT). Ryan also hasn't played a full season in the majors yet, which is why lboros' idea of Izturis and platooning him and Ryan makes sense (although the idea of Cesar in a Cardinals uniform makes my stomach churn).

by Forsch31 on Nov 29, 2007 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

arbitration
if eck asked for $9M and the cards offer $4M, what is the probability that the aribiter will pick eck's salary proposal.  it's an all or nothing deal is it not?

by sportsman on Nov 29, 2007 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Big picture?
What does a team look for in a shortstop?  Glove, then bat?  I think that yes, SS is a need for the BOB without a doubt.  But I don't think that it really matters in the big picture who plays there next year.  All the realitic options are close to the same (Miggy is not realistic IMO), with the exception of cost.  It's like beer - you can drink Falstaff cheaply, or you can drink high end Bavarian monk stuff. It's fun to shop for beer and look at all the options (now)- but at the end of the day, you're still drunk (2008) and hungover (2009).  Hopefully you didn't make an ass out of yourself and show up on youtube.com (2009 and beyond).
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Nov 29, 2007 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

I'll drink to that (but not Falstaff).
My dad was a Falstaff or Stag beer drinker during the 60s/70s.  I even flirted with Old Milwaukee (OK, it wasn't flirting, it was marriage, actually) while in college since it was $2.99 for a 12-pack.

I digress. I think LB's point is that we need to try to AVOID a hangover in 2009.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

well put
for now, go w/ a cheap beer that's cheaply priced, as opposed to a cheap beer with a fancy label that carries a premium price tag.

save your money till there's actually a premium beer on the shelf.

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

HoustonCardinal
I like HoustonCardinal's idea of trying to trade Anderson for a SS, who is about MLB ready.

There are zero good SS on the 2009 FA list.  So even if we play Ryan at SS in 2008 and he does bad it's not like the FA SS at the end of 2008 are any good.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks, but
as I said, it wasn't my idea.  I stole it from someone else whose moniker I forget.

And I'm not "looking to trade Anderson" either.  I love Anderson and see him as Yadi's heir apparent.  But, trading him for a good, young SS under the team's control for 5-6 years is an option worth exploring.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

i was pretty drunk in '06
Heck, i spent the better part of the decade drunk (especially from '04 on).  I was really hoping '07 was the hangover year...
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 29, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Qualities the team needs
"the focus should be on acquiring players who have the qualities the team needs. the qualities the cards should be looking for (imho) are youth, speed, upside potential, and payroll flexibility -- regardless of position"

I would submit that something that is sorely lacking is a couple of OBP machines to put in front of Pujols in the lineup. We might not be able to do much about that this year, but the prospect of batting Ryan/Izturis and Ankiel 1st and 2nd will lead to a lot of 2 out/nobody on situations for Albert, and is a criminal waste of his talent. I'm all for giving Ryan and Ankiel full-season shots next year to see what we've got but on a team that's an actual contender they would be hitting farther down in the lineup.

by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions  

Yes
There needs to be some OBP guys ahead of Albert.  Ryan and Ankiel at 1 adn 2 is flat out scary!!!

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

scary in a good or bad way?
i wouldn't mind seeing...

leadoff (eck / wilson / ryan)
edmonds (or duncan)
pujols
duncan (or ludwick)
rolen
ankiel (or ludwick)
molina
pitcher
2nd leadoff (kennedy / miles / ryan)

and yet i feel certain that there will be at least one significant change in that projected lineup by spring training.

by willievinceterry on Nov 29, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Scary Bad
Scary in a bad way!  I don't think Ankiel and Ryan project out as being on base demons.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Long-term solution
A partial long-term solution most of us our counting on is Colby Rasmus.   His on-base skills are impressive.   I hope he is hitting in front of Pujols by late next season.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 29, 2007 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Why not try Rasmus at SS?
He's athletic? Let him spend a year at the major league level adjusting. He'd probably outhit Izturis and out-field Eckstein. And he'd be cheaper!

Relax folks. I'm kidding.

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Or, let's convert the guy we drafted
to be a pitcher even though he was a SS back to SS.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The year our pitching was so horrendous
and we were basically alternating our 4 OF's -- Jordan, Lankford, Gilkey and Whiten -- by sitting 1 every day, I kiddingly (sort of) stated that we should let the 4th OF pitch every 4th day so that at least we'd get the extra stick in the lineup.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Rasmus
I agree that Rasmus could be a very good option in the #2 spot, his peak translation is .273/.380/.538 and his current translation is .240/.331/.474. So let's say that for the '09 season he might be able to manage something like .260/.355/.500. While I would love to see a .380+ OBP monster in front of Albert, I think .355 would be acceptable when you combine the fact that Rasmus shouldn't hit into to too many DP's, given that he is left-handed, has speed, and doesn't hit too many ground balls.

by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 29, 2007 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Amen.
I really wish the Birds would rethink the whole leadoff paradigm.  It's sad to think that I might never see another Rickey Henderson-caliber leadoff guy in my lifetime.  Most of the guys who are as good as Rickey with the bat end up further down in the order, and the number of guys with truly great leadoff skills combined with a real desire to be a leadoff guy is distressingly small. Why do we have to assume one of our middle infielders has to be the leadoff guy?

Let me float a crazy idea: Mr. Scott Rolen, your 2008 Cardinal leadoff man.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be glorious
Or even the new, powerless, Jim Edmonds.  Put the middle infielder 9th, so he gets as few at bats as possible...
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 29, 2007 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

What I like about Rolen is that
he's such a bulldozer on the bases.  Not that he would steal many bags, but he'd take out a lot of pivot guys when Ankiel or Duncan hit those DP balls behind him.

And, even if his shoulder is permanently weakened, he'll still be a big doubles guy--a real asset from the 1 spot.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Rolen is also a smart baserunner.
He's not particularly fast, but he does see himself entitled to any base he thinks he can get.  I can't remember the last time he made a baserunning mistake-I really can't.  And the dude is huge.....look out!

by jillsinmo on Nov 29, 2007 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I would give Ryan a shot at winning the job too
but there has to be a veteran for him to compete with, thus Itzuris might be a sensible backup option.  It certainly shouldn't be Aaron Miles.  But why all the hatred for Jack Wilson, who, leaving aside the extra cost for a moment, would in my mind represent a clear upgrade at the position.  Wilson must have done something to offend the sabermeritricians (pun intended) among us, but to call him good-field, no-hit suggests the term has been radically defined upward since the glory days of Willy Miranda and Mario Mendoza.  To me Wilson represents a bat that is at least the equal of Eckstein's and a far superior glove and arm. He's also significantly younger.  Plus, I've been annoyed with our losing him for the useless Jason Christenson for years and wouldn't mind in the least seeing that move reversed.  If the Pirates would give us Wilson and Morris for Ryan and Reyes I'd make the deal in a minute, especially if they would kick in some of the veterans' salaries.

by MikeG on Nov 29, 2007 11:59 AM EST reply actions  

mike, no surprise that we disagree
we generally come at things from different angles. but even a non-sabermeritrician like you must be able to see that jack wilson is not as good a hitter as david eckstein. conveniently enough, these players have almost identical career at-bat totals, so we can compare them very readily; i've left out all the sabermetric stuff that you disdain, and simply listed raw career totals:
ab runs hits homers rbi avg obp slg
eckstein 3772 556 1079 30 285 .286 .351 .362
wilson 3734 458 1004 55 336 .269 .312 .378

wilson hits more homers (although neither player hits a lot of them); that, plus the fact that wilson doesn't hit leadoff, has led to 50 more rbis. but eckstein is better in every other category --- 17 points better in batting avg., 40 points better in on-base pct, 100 more runs. and despite his deficit in homers, eck is reasonably close to wilson in slugging --- again, neither is good in this category, but they're about equally bad.

does this change your opinion that wilson is at least as good with the bat as david eckstein? again, i'm not pulling any of my fancy sabermetric tricks; just looking at good ol' back-of-the-baseball-card stats. and just to be clear --- i'm not suggesting that i think eckstein's a good hitter. he has one good offensive skill, on-base ability. but wilson doesn't even have that skill. he has no offensive skills that i can discern.

what am i missing?

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a nice table
for a direct comparison. Thanks.

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Wilson's one skill
He is reasonably good at avoiding pitched balls: he has only 28 HBP for his career, compared to 116 for Eckstein.

by tdawg on Nov 29, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Larry, thanks for the table
and for taking the trouble to explain your perspective to an old stick-in-the-mud like me. I'll grant you that lifetime Eckstein so far has outperformed Wilson in both batting average and on-base percentage, although Wilson did hit .308 in 2004 and (I believe) .296 in 2007, so he's not exactly an automatic out at the plate (he also has more pop, not just homers but also doubles).  Perhaps you'll admit in turn that your "good-field no-hit" description is a bit of an exaggeration.  More to the point, I'm willing to project that over the next three years (the approximate difference in their ages) Wilson is likely to outhit Eckstein and be available to do it in a lot of more games, given the downward trajectory of Eckstein's health and durability.  If you're thinking of only one more year of Eckstein, then the odds should favor more durability for Wilson for that year too.  Of course, there are no guarantees about injuries in baseball, but I think Wilson is the sounder gamble.  That doesn't even take into account Wilson's clear defensive superiority, about which we seem to be in agreement.  My bottom line is that I still consider Wilson a clear upgrade over Eckstein.  Whether a longer contract for Wilson might block out some better Cardinal option in the future I can't say, but Tyler Greene looks increasingly dubious and Kozma is a long way from the majors. I'll admit that I don't consider Wilson a good option as the leadoff hitter, but I'm not sure Eckstein is one any more either.  What I would really like is for the Cardinals to find a way to re-acquire Coco Crisp from the Red Sox (I think he might be available at a fairly reasonable cost) and make him the leadoff man.  He could play any of the outfield positions, depending on what happens with Duncan, Ankiel, and Edmonds next season.  Wilson could hit second or seventh, also depending on other developments in the lineup.  But as far as Crisp is concerned, I'm getting ahead of myself.  Suffice it for now to say I like the idea of re-acquiring Jack Wilson.  I don't, however, like the thought of including Tyler Johnson in the deal unless they can find a comparable lefthander to replace him.  

by MikeG on Nov 29, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

and why
should the extra cost of Wilson be set aside?  That's relevant.

Eckstein would cost 1 year's salary at $4-6 M.

Wilson would cost players/prospects + more than $14 M.  Plus it would cost us another year of below-average play at SS.  Is Wilson 2 1/2-3 times better than Eckstein?  No way.  At best, they're about equal.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That is false
they are not equal.  Over the average MLB SS, Jack Wilson over a 4 year swath has been 16 runs better.

David Eckstein has cost his team (with offense and defense combined) almost 15 runs.

There is a 30 run difference between the two players.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, so
3 wins over 4 years -- .75 wins per year (even if your numbers are correct) isn't ABOUT equal?  If not, I humbly stand corrected.  Over the last 4 years, Jack Wilson has been .75 wins per year better than Eckstein.  That's worth an extra $10M!

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It's per year
it averages out +15 runs per year for Wilson and -16 runs per year for Eckstein.

So last year, Wilson was worth 3 wins and Eckstein was worth -3 wins.  There was a 6 win difference between the two SS.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

what statistics are you using
because I'm skeptical of those results.

by azruavatar on Nov 29, 2007 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I used this in my original diary
about a Wilson/Morris trade:

http://fireleyland.blogspot.com/2007/10/carlos-guillen-his-replacements-and.html

He figured that over the last 4 years, Wilson's weighted runs created average was 68 (average is 67).  Using the same method, Eckstein's was 71.5 or 72.

In reality to Eckstein, though, over the last 4 years he has RC totals of 61, 106, 61 and 58.  He is basically being carried by his 2005 season.  Wilson, over that stretch has put up 87, 64, 59 and 72.

Anyways, using Eckstein's 'blip' season as part of his average, he creates 5 runs better than the average SS offensively.  Wilson was 1 run better.

Defensively, Wilson was worth +15 runs last year.  Eckstein was -5.7.

Putting the two sides of the game together, overall Wilson is worth 83 runs, Eckstein was 66.3 (67 rounded up).

Average MLB SS created 67 runs.
Eckstein was MLB average.
Wilson was +16.

Sorry about the stuff above.  I had to go back and recalculate everything just to be sure.

Anyways, Wilson should average out to be worth about 16 runs over replacement value.  

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

this is part of the problem
runs created is a counting stat, not a rate stat. you have to put that into the context of outs --- runs created per out, or more commonly runs created per 27 outs (rc/27). i'll run the numbers on that and do a comparison for you.

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Here are the totals
RC/27

Eckstein (2004-2007)
4.09
5.20
4.48
5.17
average: 4.7

Wilson (2004-2007)
5.41
3.68
3.91
5.44
average: 4.6

Now we need a baseline for what the average MLB SS would produce over that 4 year span.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

if we go back 4 years
they're dead even w/ the stick --- 5.1 rc/27 apiece, using the 10/20/30/40 weighting prescribed in the post you cite. however, that's unadjusted for league and for ballpark.

if we use BRAR --- which is also in the context of outs, plus it's park- and league-adjusted ---, eckstein's 3 runs better per year w/ the stick over the last 4 years, per a 10/20/30/40 weighting.

i also have to point out that wilson is only that close to eckstein because we're taking an unorthodox 4-year sample, which captures wilson's strong 2004 season. if we take the more standard 3-year sample --- which is what tangotiger uses in marcels --- and weight it 15/35/50, eckstein comes out as 5 runs a year better than wilson per BRAR.

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Eck! Wilson!
I don't know which way to turn!

See, I bought into lboros' table.  And now you're killing me.

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Anyways, if a run is still worth $200,000
and I don't know if it is (price may have gone up), Wilson was worth $3.0M over the average MLB player and Eckstein was worth -$3.2 M.  Difference of $6.2 M.

If Eckstein would get $4 M via arbitration, then Wilson would be worth $10.2 M.

Of course, this all assumes you put value in runs saved ("created") by defense.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

HL, how do you arrive at those ###s?
which offensive metric(s) and defensive metric(s) are you using?

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I had to go back and check
use the information in the post you replied to above.

With that in mind (based on RC and not RC/27), Eckstein is worth $ 0 more than the average MLB SS.  Wilson would be worth $4.0 M more than the average MLB SS.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

i still can't agree w/ you hardcore

the more advanced metrics (BRAR, VORP, win shares) all have eckstein as a few runs better than wilson, using the weighted avg. wilson makes up the difference with his glove, but you're overestimating that effect because you're only using 1 year of fielding data --- last year, when there was a whopping 20-run split between the two players. if we use a bigger sample size, eckstein holds his own w/ the glove. in 2006, for example, eckstein was better than wilson per all three advanced fielding system (PMR, UZR, and dewan's +/- system). and this summer mgl published all his data from 2003 through 2007, and they show eckstein to be slightly more valuable on defense than wilson over that longer time frame.

i'll concede that the two players are close. but since wilson is locked up for more years and more dollars, that makes him less valuable than eckstein.

and neither one, imho, has enough marginal ability over brendan ryan to justify the $$$$ it would take to sign them.

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

A little while ago
I looked it up, using both BRAR and FRAR from BP and BRAA and FRAA -- comparing the two.  I compared WARP1 for both and WSAB for both over the 4 year span.  From BP, Wilson came out ahead of Eckstein by 54 runs using BRAA and FRAA, 65 runs by using BRAR and FRAR, and 6.5 - 7 wins using WARP.   So, over 4 years, Wilson has been worth A TOTAL of 5.5 - 7 wins over Eckstein -- less than 2 wins per year.

THT uses a different baseline for "replacement level" and Wilson was 3 or 5 WSAB ahead of Eckstein over 4 years.  This, of course, includes defense.  This means that, according to THT, Wilson was 1 - 1.7 wins better than Eckstein TOTAL over 4 years -- less than 1/2 a win per year.  

By any definition, I'm still standing by my assertion that Wilson and Eckstein are ABOUT equal.  In any case, there's nowhere near the difference to justify the enormous salary differential + the prospects/players that would have to be traded in order to bring Wilson to St.L.  It certainly doesn't justify Wilson over Ryan at $500,000 per year.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

They are only equal
if David Eckstein reverses his massive downward spiral.

That's like saying David Eckstein 2005 is equal to Jack Wilson 2004.  That doesn't really matter because neither is going to perform like that again, especiall Eckstein.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Wilson is younger
and has less injury troubles, which again makes him more valuable than Eckstein, even on a 1 year deal.  Eckstein hasn't been able to play a full year since 2005.

I'd really like to see the two stack up against each other defensively since 2004, year by year.  I have a hard time believing Eckstein is even close to Wilson.

Also, when talking about all this, to think Eckstein and Wilson have the same value is to believe that in 2008 they will be the same player.  They likelihood of Eckstein being the same type of player is a lot less likely than Wilson.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

what a silly discussion
we're talking about 2 guys w/ very limited ability. neither one is a good player; we're arguing about which one is less bad.

i know you like wilson, but his 2007 season doesn't impress me. as of july 31, his line read .252 / .303 / .342 --- a .645 ops, which is aaron miles territory. in 2006 his ops was .686; in 2005, it was .662. so for 2 years and 4 months, wilson carried an ops in the mid .600s, and then he went nuts after august 1st last year and batted .410 for a couple of months.

which do you think is more reflective of his true ability --- the 2 years 4 months of .650ish ops, or the 2 months of a .400 batting average?

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't like Jack Wilson
I just dislike him less than David Eckstein, Brendan Ryan, Cezar Isturiz, etc.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

fair enough
since none of these guys really serves the organization's needs, it almost comes down to a matter of taste --- which one could you tolerate for a season.

by lboros on Nov 30, 2007 8:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Update: Pirates would get Reyes, BThomp, Tyler J
Apparently the Pirates would get Anthony Reyes, Brad Thompson and Tyler Johnson in return for Jack Wilson and Matt Morris. Pirates would eat some of Morris' salary. Cards would take on all of Wilson's.

My take: WAY too much to give up for these two players, especially if we're also eating salary. Trading away this much cheap and flexible pitching for a 1 year stopgap and a SS whose skill set we can find on the cheap would be a huge black mark for Mozeliak.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/cards-could-get.html

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 12:05 PM EST reply actions  

Take out Morris...
...and put in Jason Bay, and I'd pull the trigger on that trade.

by Forsch31 on Nov 29, 2007 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

+1
unless it's a complete salary dump by the pirates, that's a crazy trade

by Recon on Nov 29, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

That is bizarre
Thompson is nothing special... I'd be happy with a bag of balls for him.  Reyes is your typical prospect who has the stuff but seems to be in a bad situation.  Johnson has become a pretty good bullpen arm though and in a market for setup guys are getting $20 million for 4 years, I don't think it he needs to be in the trade at all.  

by SpringfieldDude on Nov 29, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

The article
Only says that the Cardinals would be willing to part with Reyes, Thompson, or TJ, not that all three would be packaged up for Morris/Wilson.

by liam on Nov 29, 2007 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeesh...
Wilson at $14.35 million over two years and Morris at $10.5 million for one shouldn't bring anything more than a couple Trey Hearne-types.

Mike Maroth at $3 million pro-rated for '07 and under control for a couple seasons cost Chris Lambert. Morris at this point isn't much better than everyone thought Maroth was last July and he's 3.5 times as expensive. He isn't worth Reyes, TJ, or Thompson, let alone some combination.

As for Wilson, his top comps are Royce Clayton, Tony Kubek, Christian Guzman, and Neifi. Nuff said...

I'll be pissed if the Cards take either the Wilson or Morris contract.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 29, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Morris isn't much better than Maroth?
I'll be honest, I thought Maroth could have a Moyer-esque success in the National League but Morris is exponentially better than Maroth.  

Morris' problem isn't that he is a god awful pitcher, his problem seems to be that in the second half of the last 4 seasons his ERA goes from mid-3.00's/low 4.00's to Low/mid 5.00's.

He wears down as the seasons goes along.  He's as good a pitcher as their is in the NL in the first half of the season.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

so theytrade
for a huge contract for a half a season? DOesnt matter whose better Maroth or Morris, I don't see either helping them in the long term for 08.

Morris seems to give up the long ball quite a bit, I'm not sure the fasination with bringing him back

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 29, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Good catch.
My bad, totally missed that.

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

If we trade Reyes
and don't get someone young and under the team's control for a few years, even if it's someone like Reyes who hasn't panned out yet and may not pan out, I'll puke.  It would be an atrociously bad trade.

And Johnson -- he has value.  Wilson and Morris just don't -- not at their ages/salaries.  I can't believe that Mo would really consider this trade.  That may be what the Pirates want, but we can't honestly be considering it.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

The only way you do that is being sure
that Wilson is bored in Pitt and tired of losing and not playing up to potential. Maybe a change of scenery would help huh?
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 29, 2007 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Mitchell Report
Is there any chance the Cardinals are waiting for the Mitchell report to come out before finding a SP or SS.  I know there are bad feelings in StL over Big Mac and Ankiel, and I wonder if it's effecting Mo's likelihood to deal.
Who knew that many people live in Puerto Rico?

by Yadi4MVP on Nov 29, 2007 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

Mitchell Report
It may have some significance, but just as significant is the arbitration deadlines. Those can determine draft picks given up and players that may be available that might come cheap. I believe those are Dec 1 for the club to offer and Dec 7 for the player to accept.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 29, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

The Pirates
traded their entire team to the Cubs a few years ago.

by Toddius396 on Nov 29, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, if you have a player you don't want,
and someone in your division has a player you DO want, I say you make the deal.  So what.  They may end up beating you; you may end up beating them.  MLB GM's don't usually do it though.  

by jillsinmo on Nov 29, 2007 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I tend to agree
what difference does it make?  If you match up w/ another team in your division and can make your team better, you do it.

It's true that we're competing w/ the other teams in our division and getting better while making them better may not help us overall.  But, in the age of the WC, the truth is that we're competing w/ everyone in NL.  Are we going to shut the rest of the NL out of the trading process and only trade w/ the AL?  Besides, if we're truly competing w/ the Pirates, we're worse off than I thought we were.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

rim shot.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Nov 30, 2007 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

The NL Central...
may have the worst set of GMs in the game.

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but 4 years and $46 million for Francisco Cordero is absolute lunacy. Sure the guy's pretty good, but he's definitely not dominant.

Ed Wade, Doug Melvin, Jim Hendry, the new guy in Pittsburgh, Wayne Krivsky, and John Mozeliak...

That is a pretty thin collection of GM talent for one division.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 29, 2007 1:35 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, much worse than the AL East
the GMs in that division don't do stupid things like overpaying for JD Drew, Mike Lowell, Jorge Posada, Edgar Renteria, Mariano Rivera, Julio Lugo, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Kevin Millar, Frank Thomas, BJ Ryan, Troy Glaus...shall I go on?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

+1
The difference being those teams have money to burn so they can afford to take a shitty contract.  And you can't have a list like that and leave out Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright, in fact, those two should probably be at the top of the list in terms of terrible signings in the AL East
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 29, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I would argue that...
the difference between being able and not being able to take a bad contract is not insignificant.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 29, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

ummmm
I really think you're wrong there.  No other teams could have afforded to offer Pavano and Wright those contracts, not gotten anything out of them, and STILL made the playoffs all those years except those teams who have no payroll conscience like the Yanks and Red Sox.  The Red Sox ponied up for JD Drew and he didn't perform to half the extent which he was paid, and they won the World Series.  Look at how much Rolen's deal hamstrings the Cardinals and it's only $12 million a year for the next three years and he still actually plays occasionally.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 1, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

true
No such thing as paying too much if it doesn't hurt other moves. The only person affected by overpaying is the owner and his profit.

Sure Stinebrener could have paid less for Pavano and Wright, but heck it did not stop him from signing ARod and others so it does not matter unless one is really concerned if George makes $10 mill profit vs. $50 mill profit.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

SP trade target hint from Bernie
Bernie at the PD is hinting that the Cards have a trade target in mind who "had a poor 2007, but who has been good in the recent past."  He later rules out D-Train and Morris.  Any thoughts from the community?

I threw this out off the top of my head.

Randy Johnson - yeah, right
Mike Hampton - not sure he qualifies as "good in the recent past"
Mark Prior - can't see the Cubs trading to the Cards
Jose Contreras
Cliff Lee
Chris Capuano
Barry Zito - eep!
Kevin Millwood

Maybe Reyes for Capuano to give them both a change of venue?

by punditmoi on Nov 29, 2007 1:46 PM EST reply actions  

I'd take Willis or Morris over
Johnson, Hampton, Contreras, Capuano or Millwood.

Zito is out of the question.

Cliff Lee and Mark Prior make some sense as cheap experiments.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Bernie just said it wasn't Cliff Lee
must be Chris Antonetti!
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

My guess
Capuano or Lee. I know Duncan has always liked Capuano. Although I have trouble seeing the Brewers trading with the Cards. Here is another name to ponder Vincente Padilla. Cards went after him in the past and he had 3 pretty good years followed by a stinky 07.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 29, 2007 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Padilla
Yeah, that's a good addition. I worry about the supposed "character issues", but getting him out of the hitter's park in Texas and back into the NL might really turn him around.

by punditmoi on Nov 29, 2007 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

i was big on padilla
last off-season.  That would be an interesting move.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 29, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

padilla's a good guess
don't know how i feel about the player; have to read up on him.

by lboros on Nov 29, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Padilla
If LaDuncan thinks that Reyes is a head case then they ain't seen nothing yet. Padilla is a noted headhunter and has a reputation of being pretty much uncoachable around here, in his last start of the season he decided to throw nothing but breaking balls for some reason known only to him.

by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 29, 2007 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

my guess is padilla or millwood
god, I hope it's Millwood.  Padilla is criminally insane -- like Julian Tavarez insane.  Since 2003, he's never been more than a 102 ERA+ pitcher.

I know Millwood's owed an extra year, but he has much more upside than Padilla -- and he stunk last year too.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah
Looking at his stats, I can't figure out WHY exactly I was high on him, but I was.  Probably something I read somewhere that made me momentarily irrational.

Or I may be getting him confused with someone else...

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if there's a connection
between the whispers about the "mystery starting pitcher" and the whispers about Texas' interest in Edmonds. Padilla or Millwood for Edmonds? (maybe w/ a filler thrown in here or there?)

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

how poor is poor?
Are we talking about poor for the player or piss poor?  Because if we are talking about poor for the player I can come up with a name I am interested in:

Jeff Suppan 12-12 4.62 ERA this year is about his career norms but for the last 3 seasons before that he had a closer to 4 ERA and much better W-L ratio.  I know those are bad stats to use as rating figures but this was quick and dirty.

by StLHugo on Nov 29, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I miss Soup
... but no thanks.  Not with, what is it, 3 years left on his contract?  A year, maybe two of Suppan would be just marvy, but not the long-term commitment with the likelihood of further degradation.

by punditmoi on Nov 29, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

My Guess:
Jake Westbrook.

He didn't have all that bad a season, but it was a disappointing one coming in the first year of his contract extension. Chris Duncan is exactly the sort of player Shapiro will be looking to add.

They've got more quality starters than spots in the rotation.

You can probably scratch Johnson, Hampton, and Prior off that list since they are coming off down years due to injury, a gamble Mo isn't in the mood to pursue. (Although I think Hampton would be a worthwhile bet, in spite of his recent hammy strain.)

by liam on Nov 30, 2007 5:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Save the money
I know what people mean when they say 'save the money' as far as don't tie up large chunks of payroll that will hamper the team making FA signings in 2009.

Here is the thing: Bill DeWitt got even richer last year.  Through the agreement with MLB.com, every MLB team got cut a check for $30 M.  That's $30 M that didn't cost DeWitt a dime to make.  

How far did he bump up payroll for this year?  Well, we are at $99 M right now.  By the end of 2007, Bernie said team payroll was around $96 M.  

DeWitt has promised that payroll could go to $115 M.  That would be an increase of around $19 M.  Not a bad return from what he was paid for having a webpage.

But we have no assurance the Cardinals will spend that much money.  If they sign a SS and trade for a SP, payroll may only go up $10 M (a third of what DeWitt was given).

The MLBPA is raising a big stink because the owners are treating the $30 M like it is a 401k and putting that money away for a rainy day (which may never come).  Seeing as the Cardinals view deferred money as current day payroll, DeWitt is getting the best of both worlds.  Money he is given today by MLB.com is being put into his bank for a rainy day and money he doesn't have to pay players for 10 years is being counted as part of this years budget.

So, he's paying players their deferred money with money his 'business' has already set aside.

No wonder he is a billionaire.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

barring a trade for/reupping of Santana or Willis,
who, exactly, are you going to spend that money on?    If you're saying that it makes sense to sign a bunch of guys with down years to one year/make good deals, fine--I can't say I'd particularly care if they paid Bartolo Colón to a one year deal, even at like $12M or whatever--it has a high payoff, and doesn't hurt hte team long term.  

But otherwise, what is that money going to get you, other than a bunch of gambles that are unlikely to pay off?

by Valatan on Nov 29, 2007 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know who you spend the money on
however, this team is notorious for not signing big dollar free agents.  That's fine if they want to operate that way.  However, if you aren't going to go out, bid that money and spend it, then your best bet is to be a team that 'collects' other bad contracts at discounted prices.

I guess my whole point is that, when people say "Don't waste the money on Wilson/Morris", they truly don't tie up much payroll beyond 2008.  Wilson is on the books for 2009 but I would hope that he'd still be able to perform.

The more players like Morris/Wilson, etc cost us in dollars, the less they cost in players sent the other way.

DeWitt has the money in the coufers.  I'd rather overpay Morris and Wilson next year and Wilson in 2009 than be stuck with a middle of the road FA for 3 or 4 years.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Rolen
was a big dollar free agent, as were Edmonds and McGwire.  Pujols and Carp weren't free agents, but you could certainly call them "big dollar signings."

I'll concede that Morris for 1 year is better than Lohse for 4, even if we have to trade something for Morris.  But that still doesn't make it a good option.  It's just really bad, and not god-awful.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Edmonds, McGwire, Rolen
were not big dollar FA.  They were acquire via trade and signed to extensions.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

That's
That's the reason I can't believe all these people think the offseason following the 2008 season will be so great.  I just don't see STL signing a big name FA uless they start to "over pay" like people say around here.

I have no faith that if there is a big name FA that STL can bag that person.  They have not shown the abiltiy to do so the last 10 years so it's hard to imagine anything will change.

Besides there is no one really exciting in the FA crop if you look at SP & SS.  There are some SP who's name sounds good but if you look at age and think about length of deal they may want it's not good.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

They were all entering free agency
when they signed the extensions.  All were within, what, less than 2 months of free agency when they signed their extensions.  Don't want to count them as high dollar free agent signings -- that's fudging the numbers.  

They certainly gave up the right to be a free agent in exchange for a high dollar contract with the Cards.  If you don't want to count them, that's up to you.  They're high-dollar contracts that the Cards' organization signed.  It's silly to discount them if you're trying to prove that the Cards are cheap and always have been.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Cardinals had exclusive rights to bargain
with them before they hit FA by trading for them.  Before they ever hit the market, the Cardinals had a chacne to offer them a lower than top dollar contract.

The most recent bidding wars I can remember the Cardinals getting into (Burnett, Renteria, etc) they back off before overextending.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

And they had the right
to reject it, knowing that they would be hitting the open market in a couple of months. Did they take a little less to play in St. Lou? Probably but so what? That doesn't mean they didn't sign high-dollar contracts and it doesn't mean that they didn't forgo the right to negotiate w/ other teams. If the offers weren't competitive, they'd have rejected them and exercised their right to free agency. You're splitting hairs on this one.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome to 2008
those contracts which I disagree with being big dollar FA contracts were still signed over 5 years ago.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 29, 2007 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought
I thought Edmonds and McGwire came via trade?

Adam Kennedy and Kent Bottenfield for Edmonds?

by ICbirdfan on Nov 29, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Edmonds was traded to the Cards in 2000
before the 2000 season ended, when he was about to enter free agency, he signed a 6 year, $57 M extension. He gave up the right to be a free agent by signing w/ the Cards. In 2000 -- that was a high-dollar signing.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree BUT
I'd sure like to know what we're spending on the minors.   Players, personnel, these pitching schools we're starting up outside the U.S.  I never know how much of a cost that stuff is for a major league team.

Don't get me wrong - I know that ain't costing $30m, of course.

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

6 man rotation?
I was reading the 1983 Bill James Abstract over the Thanksgiving holiday. I was curious to see what he wrote about the 1982 Cardinals. James had a great take on Whitey's pitcher usage. Apparently Whitey ID'd that some of his starters were more effective with standard 4 days between starts, some were more effective with 5 days, some with 3. So he resequenced his rotation to accommodate the strengths of his different starters.

Maybe we should think about something like that for 08.

Matty Mo (if we were to acquire him) seems to wear down as the season goes on. Looper definitely had some periods where fatigue set in. Mulder's recovery is well documented here. Perhaps Wainwright and Pinero should work a standard 5 day pattern while the other 3 work 6 day patterns. Swing in a bullpen start or a swing guy (Brad Thompson) for the occasional need for a 6th starter. Keep your best arms pitching their best.  

Perhaps by thinking creatively we could maximize the skills of our pitchers.

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

Good thinking. And the 2008
Cardinals are in a perfect position to be thinking creatively to make the most of limited talent.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I always thought Marquis would have been better
if he had gone every three days.  He always seemed better when he was exhausted

by Valatan on Nov 29, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what Whitey did with Andujar
Disclaimer: I'm not going anywhere near saying that Joaquin Andujar and Jason Marquis deserve to be compared in any way (except they both have q's in their names) - but 3 days rest is what Whitey did with Andujar and it worked. Pretty cool stuff.

Check it out:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/1982.shtml

by airhad on Nov 29, 2007 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

another of bernie's comments
he doesn't believe that eckstein will be back based on what he's heard

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5145532&highlight=#5145532

by johnstonburg on Nov 29, 2007 3:57 PM EST reply actions  

I used to appreciate...
Bernie's little snippets, but now I just wish he'd write a freakin' column reporting what exactly he "heard" and where he heard it. The problem is what he hears often isn't accurate. He (and we) would be better off returning to the journalistic basics.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 29, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

And there's always the possibility that
he's being fed that to "help" the Cards side of the negotiations.

by sdrone on Nov 29, 2007 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Bernie
Its a message board he puts that on--not a column.

If everyone went back to "journalistic basics" there wouldn't be a vivaelbirdos site or a place for you to comment.

And Bernie isn't "feeding" information to help the Cardinals brass. He doesnt work for them.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Nov 29, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Bernie's...
a professional journalist posting on the website of the newspaper he works for. Those who post on VEB are commentators - they aren't (typically) reporting anything.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 29, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

SS position
first, yes a reunion of sorts would be great.

Nothing proves to me that Ryan is ready for fulltime duty. Therefore, Izturis would be the best option to do the platoon route.

I would prefer Jack wilson but only at a discounted rate.

www.cardinalsgm.com

by tknup on Nov 29, 2007 4:50 PM EST reply actions  

question
I once posted a question asking what music you would choose to enter via bullpen or Batters song?

It got some good feedback but not a huge topic.

My question today amid the morris return stuff is if you played ball no matter how long ago what card/ex card did you want to be

since we can't all be the stud my fav was to try and play like Rex"headfirst" hudler...Although not the greatest Bird i loved the way he played all out, and when i played i knew that if i played like that i could feel satisfied knowing i gave my all...He's not your bigest statistical Bird of all time but i loved the guy..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 29, 2007 6:21 PM EST reply actions  

I most be older than you. I was
Curt Flood.  I cried when they traded him to Philly.  I cried again when he was in his lawsuit.  RIP, Curt.

by jillsinmo on Nov 29, 2007 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

although I know who Curt is
I was not born for 10 more yrs afterhe retired(69)

thanks for the reply i was sure more might bite at it..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 29, 2007 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry if this was posted already...
I am short for time and I haven't had a chance to cruise the posts the last 2-3 days.  

The smoking gun has released the tapes from Larussa's DUI arrest.  

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/1129071larussa1.html

Again, sorry if this has been posted.  If this post isn't in good taste by all means delete it if need be.

by Pujols for MVP on Nov 29, 2007 6:38 PM EST reply actions  

Love the idea of Morris
signing up for a first-half-of-the-year stint, sort of Roger Clemens in reverse. HC is right. His arm dies about mid-July every year, and has for at least the past three seasons. If Carpenter can come back before September, perhaps it would mostly fill the void.

The trouble is that fat contract the Bucs gave him. They would have to eat some, trade or no trade.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 29, 2007 6:57 PM EST reply actions  

It is rumored there is a mystery team in on the
bidding for Santana. Could it be us? They want a centerfielder and we have a better prospect than the Sox/ Yanks/ etc...Mo said there are no budget constraints and we have heard them say before they would commit if the right player came along. Plus paying a fat contract to Santana would not insult Carp. If there is a better pitcher than Carp it is Santana. He has the edge in Cy youngs. Could always re-up Carp if he comes back strong. I see no problem in paying for two ace pitchers. Pitching is more valuable than a position player. I would hate to see Rasmus go but if there was one guy out there that would soften the blow it would be Santana.

P.S. I am not saying for a one year rental. You have to sign Santana.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 29, 2007 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

We already re-upped Carp
last year -- we owe him $54 M over the next 4 years and there's no way of knowing how good he'll be over that time. We do know that we'll get very little for our $10.5 M this year. There were warnings then that the extension was a bad one -- and he was healthy. Hopefully, we'll manage to get a couple of good seasons from him.

by chuckb on Nov 29, 2007 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Colin Cowherd on his show yesterday
Was talkign about Santana...I rarely agree with him but occasionally he'll hit it...He says teams are over bidding for him.

Yanks..

 Jon Heyman said yesterday(a few days ago) the Twins would want Melky Cabrera plus one of Hughes/Chamberlain/Kennedy.

Herds point..

Yanks haven't done well with pitching signings or trades of late..and Santana coming off an off year with arm problems? Your giving up a ton. Yes he is one of the best when healthy but if your the yanks whose Docs passed Pavano you have to be weary..

BoSox now entering and supposedly leading(shock shock..the annual biddign war between the teams)

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 29, 2007 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

colin cowherd
is the worst sports radio host ever. sorry, just a knee jerk reaction. happens when i hear his name.

by erik on Nov 29, 2007 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

understood
but occasionaly he makes a good point
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 30, 2007 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

And then
he beats it into the fucking ground for three hours. He;s terrible, even by national sports talk radio standards.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Nov 30, 2007 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

+1
I don't even know if he understands anything about sports, either.

I think he just likes insulting people.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 30, 2007 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

besides picking him apart
cause he is an idiot i think his yanks point of bad pitching moves was right on..Santana is great but struggled last yr and they are selling the farm...

plus herd will go on rants nothing to do with sports

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 30, 2007 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

the local cbs tv station in central ohio
also owns the local espn radio station here.

recently they started running a new tv commercial promoting cowass's radio show. personally i've only actually listened to maybe 30 seconds of his show. but the audio clips alone that they use in this tv spot is all a person needs to hear to know that show is one of the worst wastes of air time in the long & storied history of sports talk radio. whoever the hell this cowass person is knows nothing about sports.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 30, 2007 3:21 AM EST up reply actions  

championships
i enjoy the fantasizing/speculating on ways to improve the birds in 08, but the truth to me is that any FA "purchase" is buying at auction, a typically poor way to obtain value.  trading is a much better option (satisfying mutual needs), but you need to have goods to barter with, something the cards generally lack.  what to do? my vote goes for going into 08 with ryan at ss and if he flails before the deadline, you try to fix it.  if rolen picks up, you may want to barter.  overall, though, you need to hold onto prospects as much as possible because the overall fraction of even round 1-5 draftees making it to impact level as major league players is very low.  competing in the nl central is not really the challenge, its winning number 11, which will not be possible with cards' budget unless we have impact players.  do they come as FA?  ask the giants (zito) and the jays (burnett) for the answer.  i know its cheating, but ask detroit and cleveland if they know the answer.

by sportsman on Nov 29, 2007 8:59 PM EST reply actions  

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