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The Draft 20/20, three.

Morning, everyone.  I hope that you all had an enjoyable Thanksgiving holiday.  

The Winter Meetings are nearly ready to kick off.  I expect the Cards to make a move or two then, but probably not before.  A couple things:  

By now, I'm sure you all know that the Cards were Torii Hunter's first choice.  I have to say, I'm encouraged by the fact that the Cards didn't seem to have much interest in him.  I will admit, though, he would have looked awfully good in red.  The problem with Hunter's contract, as it is with most of the contracts being signed by the big name players of late, isn't so much the money.  Far more worrisome than the cash outlay is the number of years that players are routinely commanding.  Most teams, (some more than others, but still) can afford the salary.  The problem comes when you lock a player up for five or six years, often at an escalating rate.  By the last couple years of the deal, the player is no longer performing up to the contract, and the team is stuck with him, often blocking other moves they could make to potentially improve their fortunes.  The kind of foresight to resist even getting into the bidding for Hunter is very encouraging to me.  I'm sure some will look at it as being cheap, but a five year deal for a 32 year old center fielder is not something the Cards need to get involved with right now.  They have a CF on the way, and, as we've all seen, guys in such a demanding position tend to age pretty quickly.  Also, exactly what in the world are the Angels doing?  I'm sure they think they're loading up for a run, but it looks to me as if they're just sort of changing their minds about the direction they want to take.  I'm interested to see how their moves play out.  

I would like to organise a letter writing campaign, or something similar, to get some network to rebroadcast the California Raisins Christmas Special.  I'm sure not many of you remember it, but it was really great.  It was entirely composed of musical vignettes, without any sort of story.  The version of, "We Three Kings", performed with assistance from several singing camels, was absolutely sublime.  If anyone would like to spearhead this initiative, (and by spearhead I mean do it yourself, because I will totally forget about this in a week or so) let me know.  

I received the new issue of Baseball America yesterday, with the top 10 prospect lists for the NL Central clubs in it.  BA doesn't have it up over at the website yet, but I'll give you the gist of it.  Their list is pretty close to the one compiled by reader votes over at Future Redbirds, with a couple exceptions.  Pete Kozma was rated much higher by BA, sneaking in at #6.  I'm personally encouraged by this; the scouting report in particular is very complementary.  His range is described as 'outstanding', which I was happy to hear.  Chris Perez and Jaime Garcia are flip flopped, I assume due to the fact that Perez should have an impact on the big club pretty soon; I wish someone would teach the kid to just throw strikes.  He's nearly unhittable, (23 hits in 50 some odd innings) but gets himself into trouble because he can't throw a ball straight to save his life.  What I found the most surprising about the BA list, though, was the inclusion of Jon Jay.  He placed at #10, and he's fallen almost completely off of most of our radars.  I'm not sure what they see in him that they like so much, but there must be something, considering what a tough season he had.  Maybe the kid really does hit like Tony Gwynn.  Hopefully, he'll get healthy and we'll get a chance to see.  

All right.  Without further ado, my third and final draft rewind:  

Star-divide

In 2005, we saw the Cardinals, bolstered by some extra picks in the first couple of rounds, take a few calculated risks.  So far, they've paid off pretty well, with Colby Rasmus(1) quickly approaching the majors, (and hopefully all star status) and Tyler Herron two of the system's top prospects.  (Herron is #8 on the new BA list)  A couple of other high risk players, both collegians, haven't panned out as well, (McCormick and Tyler Greene) but both, McCormick in particular, still have high upsides if either one can figure it all out.  Couple of nice sleeper picks here too, with Jaime Garcia(22) and Kenny Maiques(37) the best of the bunch.  

In 2006, we saw a bit more measured approach, with slightly more conservative, collegiate picks at the top.  Adam Ottavino(1) looks decent, while Chris Perez(1s) could step in as the Cards' closer of the future in the next year or so.  The real haul of this draft, though, was the great depth the Cardinals got in the middle rounds.  They went heavy on college players with good statistical profiles, and did a nice job of identifying some pretty solid prospects.  Brad Furnish, P.J. Walters, Allan Craig, Mark Hamilton, and Jon Jay all look as if they could be decent contributors in the future.  A couple of okay late round picks, but the Cards went heavy on the college products and light on the projects here.  They had a couple of guys they thought were going to be stars from 05, and they seemed to try and establish some solid depth with this draft.  

In 2007, the Cardinals didn't have a huge bonanza of picks at the top, a la 2005.  They did have a supplemental first round pick, and an extra 2nd rounder.  They also happened to be picking much higher than they had the previous two years, coming in at #18.  

With their first pick, the Cardinals took Pete Kozma, a high school shortstop form Owasso, Oklahoma.  This pick generated a lot of ill will at the time, with many people, (myself included, I freely admit) very uset the Cards passed over Rick Porcello, probably the best prep pitcher in the draft.  Now, a couple of misconceptions about the Kozma pick.  One, he would not have been available in the supp. 1st, at #46.  If he had still been on the board when the Twins picked, they would have taken him.  If the Cardinals really thought he was the guy, they had to take him when they did.  (Again, I was part of a group who believed he would have been available at 46.  He wouldn't have.)  Second, Kozma is not that similar to David Eckstein.  A lot of us were upset when we started reading things about Kozma like how good his makeup was, that his tools play up due to his good instincts, etc.  All the things that we've heard about Eckstein and his ilk for years.  Kozma has much better tools than that.  His range is apparently very good, and his other tools all grade as above average.  His power potential isn't great, but that's really the only thing that looks to be a limiting factor.  At the time, I, like quite a few others, was really down on this pick.  Time has softened my stance.  That being said, there were still three high school pitchers on the board that I would have rather seen the Cardinals take.  Rick Porcello, who went to the Tigers at 27, Tim Alderson, who was snagged by the Giants at around 23, I believe, and my personal favourite, Michael Main, who ended up with the Rangers at 22, I think.  All three had upsides that I felt made them more attractive than Kozma.  Still, though, the Cardinals identified a spot where they felt they really needed to add some talent, and they took the best player at that position.  I like the pick pretty well; he's a high schooler, he plays a premium position, and his ceiling looks to be pretty good.  (also better than the Mark Loretta comps that were being tossed around a bunch.)  

While the Cards didn't absolutely shoot for the stars with the first pick, I do like that they took a talented prep player, rather than a perceived safer player out of college.  The margin for error with high schoolers is just much greater.  A high school player who struggles for a year or two still has plenty of time.  A collegian who comes out and struggles, (Tyler Greene, I'm currently glaring in your direction) has a pretty limited window to get it figured out.  

With their next pick, at #46 in the sandwich round, the Cards took Clayton Mortenson, a RHP out of Gonzaga.  Trust me, the reaction to the Kozma pick was mild compared to the rage that greeted this one.  (Again, I know because I was part of it.)  Going into the draft, Mortenson was projected anywhere between the late 3rd to early 5th rounds, and the Cards took him 46th overall?!?  At the time, it was seen as a horrible overdraft, as well as an appalling bit of spendthrift behaviour by our ownership group.  

A couple of months on, the Mortenson pick looks much, much better.  He had an outstanding debut, reaching Quad Cities and posting an ERA of 3.12 just a few months after being drafted.  He drastically improved his statistical profile, (his K/BB rate, for one, improved tremendously, to better than 5 to 1, compared to 3.3 to 1 in college) and started to make a lot of us into believers.  He is a little older, being a college senior, so his dominance does have a bit of a caveat, but pitcher's developmental curves aren't nearly as regular as position players, so it's a little less of a concern.  Some of his improvement with his command has gone to some refinement of his delivery, and also just him continuing to mature physically.  

Mortenson looks as if he could be a pretty serious late bloomer.  He's just now, at 22, starting to grow into his body.  (he's 6'4" and still only weighs 180)  Looking at it now, it looks as if the Cardinals identified a guy they really believed in, and weren't willing to wait and take the chance of some other team thinking more of him than a 5th rounder selection.  He fits the organisational philosophy nicely, leaning heavily on a very nice sinker, and looks as if he may justify the Cards' faith in him.  I'll gladly eat my words if he continues to pitch as well as he has so far.  It appears this may have been a really nice job by Luhnow and company of identifying a player that was worth more than what he was being projected to be.  

In the 2nd round, the Cards took two collegiate righthanders, David Kopp and Jess Todd.  Todd, in particular, had a very nice debut.  He came out of Arkansas, in the same rotation as Nick Schmidt.  Some scouts going into the draft thought he actually had the better arm.  He's got a nice fastball and a really good slider.  Some project him to relieve, but he'll remain a starter for now.  Kopp's debut wasn't as impressive, but a lot of mechanics guys really, really like him.  Chris O' Leary, in particular, has had some very nice things to say about his arm action.  At the very least, he should provide durability, with such a strong delivery.  All in all, I think the Cards did a nice job here in adding two reasonable ceiling, safe bet pitchers.  

In the third, they continued with taking collegians when they chose Daniel Descalso, a third baseman.  I have to admit, I know very little about Descalso.  Baseball America had him as one of the best pure hitters in the Cards' draft report card, so I guess that's encouraging.  His debut was just okay, but it's tough to really decide much on such a short viewing.  

Now things get interesting.  In the fourth round, the Cards took Kyle Russell, a draft eligible sophomore out of Texas.  Like Mitch Canham, a sophomore they took in 2006, they failed to sign him.  Some, who are often accused of apologising for the organisation, point to his spotty record with wooden bats and his strikeout numbers as to why he wasn't brought in to the fold.  Others, who are often accused of bashing the organisation, pointed to his bonus demands as the chief reason.  I don't really know, although the more I look at the situation, I do believe that the Cardinals' front office rift played a role that we may not be privy to.  Either way, I think the Cards lost out on a chance to add a young power hitter with a huge ceiling.  If the money was the problem, I have to admit in being awfully disappointed in the organisation.  The possible return was just too high to let a gift in the fourth round like this get away.  (and if it had to do with the commisioners' slot recommendations, then that's even worse, in my book.)  

The Cards took college players with both of their next two picks, Thomas Eager, RHP, and Oliver Marmol, SS.  Eager seems okay, but I know very little about him.  Marmol is very gifted athletically, but doesn't seem to be a very good baseball player.  

Things got very interesting after this.  In rounds seven through twelve, the Cardinals took, in this order:  

James (Deryk) Hooker RHP
Paul (Tyler) Henley OF
Michael Stutes RHP
Beau Riportella OF
Adam Reifer RHP
Brett Zawacki RHP

This, to me, is where the ultimate value of this draft will be decided.  Of this group, Hooker, Riportella, Reifer, and Zawacki are all high schoolers, and all have very high ceilings.  Hooker was actually a find out of an inner city academy the Cards just opened a year or two ago, I believe.  His arm action is said to be beyond awful, but he strikes out a ton of batters.  If his delivery can be cleaned up, he could be very good.  Riportella is a center fielder with tremendous athleticism.  His speed is well above average, he has nice power potential, and he hit better in his debut than expected.  He's also one of my gut feeling guys.  I don't know why, but I really have a strong feeling he's going to be good.  

Reifer and Zawacki are both righthanders who were both thought very highly of by scouts going in to the draft, but neither was expected to sign.  The Cards gave both of them nice bonuses to get them into pro ball.  To me, this is tremendously exciting.  Two very talented guys, neither expected to sign, and the Cards brought both of them in.  That's how you find players with star potential.  When you have the chance to get them, you don't let them slip away.  I think the Cards may have learned from the mistakes of 2003 on this one.  These two are great picks.  

The other two, Henley and Stutes, are both college players.  Stutes was from Oregon State, he was rated the 100th best player overall going in to the draft, and the Cards grabbed him at something like 275 overall.  Quite a deal.  Unfortunately, they didn't sign him.  Why, I have no idea whatsoever.  Maybe they didn't learn the lesson as well as I had hoped.  Tyler Henley, another center fielder out of Rice, was also considered to be a tough sign going in.  The Cards popped him in the eighth and bought him out of his senior year of college with a seven figure bonus.  Again, I think Henley was much better than his draft position, and the Cards, by being willing to pay for the talent, may have gotten themselves a real steal.  Henley has elements of Lenny Dykstra, but he has more power potential.  In center field, the guy covers absolute acres of ground.  Both Henley and Stutes were really great picks here; failing to sign Stutes, I'm afraid, may end up being a black mark on this draft.  

As I said earlier, this is where I expect this draft to really be made.  In these six rounds, the Cardinals gambled on players with big time talent who, for whatever reason, were still around.  They took some risks here, spent the money to bring the players in, and came away with some very intriguing sleepers.  If none of these guys pan out, it should still be a decent draft, as I think Kozma, Mortenson, Kopp, and Todd should all contribute at some point.  But here, from seven through twelve, is where we could see an absolute mother lode of talent develop.  

After the twelfth, there are a few other players of note.  The Cardinals focused mostly on college players again for the rest of the draft, again, picking a lot of guys who project to top out in the high minors or, at best, see some small, limited time as a role player in the show.  There are, however, a few more sleepers to pay attention to:  

-Steven Hill, 1b, 13th round.  Hill had a great debut.  He's basically the 2007 version of Mark Hamilton; an all bat player whose position is dictated mostly by where the team can get his bat into the lineup.  I will say, though, the Cards did try him at catcher a little this season, I believe, and the results weren't completely hopeless.  Still, he's pretty one dimensional.  I do, however, like to see a team take one or two of these guys in a given draft, though.  

-Josh Dew, RHP, 14th round.  Dew was a college closer and continued in the same role as a pro.  He had a wonderful debut, and is definitely the sort of player you could see get fast tracked.  There's no thoughts of making him a starter or really changing what he does, meaning he'll move as fast as his on field performance dictates.  

-Antonio DeJesus, OF, 16th round.  DeJesus had an outstanding debut, hitting more than expected and displaying ridiculous plate discipline.  I believe at one point in time he had an OBP that was around 200 points higher than his batting average.  From all accounts, he has nice athleticism to go along with a solid, polished approach.  

-Arnoldi Cruz, 3b, 26th round.  Cruz started out his pro career by doing a pretty passable Albert Pujols impression.  He was so good for a while that he was inspiring people to write facts about him instead of Amaury Marti.  He cooled off pretty significantly, but still reached all the way to low A ball and hit .299 overall.  I knew absolutely nothing about Cruz before the draft, and, honestly, not a whole lot more now.  His bat has certainly caught a lot of people's attention, though, and he'll definitely have some eyes on him in 2008.  

Nick Derba, C, 30th round.  Derba was one of the better defensive catchers in the draft, but his bat had never been anything to write home about.  He hit much more in his debut than anyone had thought he would, and still showed outstanding catch and throw skills.  Again, I don't know much of anything about him, but he's worth paying attention to.  Just the fact that he's made an impression, as a 30th rounder, is pretty surprising.  

Overall, this draft seemed to be a nice synthesis of the two previous under Jeff Luhnow.  There were a lot of collegiate, stat driven picks, but more high schoolers mixed in than what we saw in 2006.  Luhnow and co. showed a real ability, again, to pick out nice depth type picks in the middle rounds, and found some serious sleeper picks.  They took a nice, relatively high ceiling prep player who plays a premium position at the top of their draft.  As I said before, there were still a couple of other guys I probably would have taken instead if it had been me picking, but Kozma was certainly a very defensible choice in the situation.  The organisation looks to have picked some pretty strong arms who should move quickly, and, as I said earlier, those picks in the 7th to 12th rounds should ultimately decide how good of a draft this was.  They were aggressive, gambling picks, made by an organisation that was confident they could take a risk without sinking themselves if it didn't work out.  In the end, the 2007 draft was a testament to the two drafts before it.  Luhnow and his cadre had brought in enough depth to feel comforable taking those risks, and they seemed to have learned a little bit of what works from the previous drafts.  

We don't really have enough information, as far as actual performance data, to really make much of a conclusion as far as the true quality of the 2007 draft yet.  As far as the philosophy and the strategy behind it went, though, I'm feeling increasingly confident that these guys really do know what they're doing.  Or at least, they're starting to really figure it out.  

That's it for the draft recaps.  I hope you enjoyed them.  This was actually the first one I had plenty of time to sit down and focus on exclusively, without having to try and do something else at the same time, and I feel it probably turned out the best.  Thanks for reading.  I think next week, or maybe the week after, I'm going to collect all my thought on the whole drafting process and try to come up with an overall set of rules/axioms/directives/whatever.  After that, I probably won't be posting here anymore, as I fully expect job offers to come pouring in from several major league teams.  So long, suckers!  

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BA List
The BA list is written by D. Goold of the Post Dispatch.  He is running a reader top 30 at Cards Talk right now, I can't wait to see the full list when it hits the net on the 30th (Friday).  A lot of people have lost faith in Jay and I am not sure why  but I know that I am one of them, hopefully he will prove me wrong.

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Christmas with the California Raisins
I happened to find these on YouTube over Thanksgiving.

We Three Kings

My personal favorite: Rudolf the Red-nosed Reindeer

by Just Rope Ball on Nov 28, 2007 9:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the link, Brewdog.
I hadn't really looked for it; I just happened to think of it last night while I was watching television.  It is really cool to see stuff like that immortalised, whether it really deserves to be or not.  Truly, they were as gods who created that.  
You bring home the turkey and I'll bring home the bacon.

by the red baron on Nov 28, 2007 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
we got to talking about it after eating with the family so I did a little digging to find it.

by Just Rope Ball on Nov 28, 2007 9:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was missing this show bigtime last year
I loved this Christmas special, and will gladly sign any petition that gets put together. I'm way too lazy to start it up myself, though.

Maybe someone could convince a studio to put it back on the air since the writers' strike is killing all the current shows...

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 28, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

California Raisins
It's the Claymation Christmas special (starring the California Raisins) and I'm pretty sure you can buy it on DVD at Amazon.com or the like. I bought it for my mom a couple of years ago for $10 or less.

In that vein, I'd like to see the old Garfield Christmas special come back. But that's just me.

And, so I'm not totally off-topic and into diary country, I look forward to seeing Jay in Springfield (hopefully) again this year. The few games I saw him play, his swing looked sweet-sweet. Hopefully he'll get it figured out... we'll be a bit deflated at Hammons Field  next year with no Rasmus, probably no Mather, Garcia, et al.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Nov 28, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Raisins
I had both the Raisins and Garfield on the same tape at one time, but heck if I know where it is now.

Their version of Rudolph was great, and I never forget the camels anytime we sing We Three Kings at church.

by Cardinal70 on Nov 28, 2007 10:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nitpick
The Cardinals picked #36 not #46.  

This doesn't really have anything to do with whether they'd take Kozma, but I thought it was interesting yesterday when I read that Kevin Goldstein rates Ben Revere as the Twins #1 prospect (four-star).

I really would've liked for the Cardinals to take Porcello and then Justin Jackson in the supp. That coupled with actually signing Russell would've have made me one happy camper. But like you, I have softened my stance on Mort and Kozma.

I was out and trying to follow the draft on my cell, and when the supplemental pick came in I yelled, "Who?!" and got some weird looks.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 10:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Whoops.
36 it is.  
You bring home the turkey and I'll bring home the bacon.

by the red baron on Nov 28, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mort...
I remember being extremely pissed when he was picked.

Ahhh, another college righty...yeah!!!!  Then they go and pick two more right after.

However, I've completely changed my point of view.  For my money, he's the best pitching prospect in the entire organization.

I know that is bold but hear me out.  He fits in perfectly with the organizational philosophy as his go to pitch is that heavy sinker (and oh btw, don't tell Dave, but he misses a good amount of bat as well).  Although he is 22, I can see quite a bit of upside in him.  When drafted he was seen as a guy with lots of "room to grow".  As Baron stated, he's 6'4" and once he fills out to about 200 or 210 you've got to figure he'll add a few mph to that fastball.  

I see him as a big strong horse with top of the rotation potential.  My favorite kind of pitcher is the guy who keeps the ball on the ground and misses bats...Mort does both.

I like Garcia as well, and he has proven much more, but for my money Clayton Mortensen is the best pitching prospect we have.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 28, 2007 9:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll agree with whomever wrote the diary
When a big name free agent says "someone is my first choice" he means "someone is my first choice assuming they offer me the most money."

I'm pretty sure that if the Cards offered Hunter 5/$80m, or 5/$75m like other teams did, he wouldn't sign if the Angels were also offering 5/$90m.

by sdrone on Nov 28, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
Great perspective red - thanks for taking the time to go over this, I feel like I learned alot.  Looking forward to what you have in store for us next!

by sdelek on Nov 28, 2007 10:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good info, red baron.
I'm glad to see some people have mellowed on the Cards '07 picks.  I didn't think the selection of Kozma was that bad, but I remember that most were just infuriated that they didn't go with Porcello.  But as you said, only time will tell if any of them pan out.  

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 28, 2007 10:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Subtle complaints about the draft
In general, the draft looks better than first expected.  The front offices have information that the average fan and pundits never will, so when we think so and so should have been taken, it's partly because that's what we've been told by experts.  Still a few things bother me.

#1 Dewitt's comment that the team was going for a homerun pick early in the draft.  Kozma and Clayton don't stike me as homerun picks--hope I'm wrong.  Porcello would have been more of a "homerun pick" to me.  Knowing the rabid nature of the fan base, I don't know why he even used the phrase homerun pick.

#2  Why take a hard sign like Russel in the 4th round--there is no compensation for an unsigned 4th round pick, but there is for an unsigned 3rd rounder.

#3  Why sign Mulder, instead of letting him walk, and receive compensatory picks for him?  With the 13 mil they will pay Mulder, they could have taken Porcello and paid him the 7 mil he ultimately signed for.

#4 And lastly, why didn't they sign Stutes?  I'm of the belief, if you draft a guy, make an earnest effort to sign him to a reasonable deal.

I hope the Cardinals let Eck walk and get the pick for him, and don't sign Silva, or another mediocre FA and lose their picks.

Good posts, Red Baron.  Thanks for the time you put into it.

by michajo on Nov 28, 2007 11:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Eckstein
I may be wrong, but I think we only get picks for Eckstein if we offer arbitration. One of the things the article on stltoday.com talks about is the time frame for all this. We decide by Saturday whether to offer or not and then Eckstein has a week to decide to accept or not. The end of this timeframe could hurt us in the search for another shortstop if he declines.

In my opinion, seeing what is available, I say offer him arbitration. I think that only ties you in to a one year deal (unless a deal is reached otherwise) which wouldn't be so bad. Then, if Eckstein finds something more attractive, we get the pick and have to find a way to fill the gap for a year. I am sure someone out there can handle the job for a year amongst the options

by brafi on Nov 28, 2007 11:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

According to the Rotoworld ticker...
the Cards are unlikely to offer arbitration to Eckstein...and that the deadline is 12/7.  I found this rather surprising, but it tells me they expect to trade for/sign somebody else...and don't want to get stuck with an extra SS.

I don't think Eck would accept, as he'd probably only get $5M or so and could get if nothing else a multi-year deal at $5 per on the open market...probably $7-8 per...

Of course I really don't have any idea what I'm talking about.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 28, 2007 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That is surprising
With the options out there, I would figure you offer Eckstein arbitration and keep him for another year without having to come up with a long-term contract.

Eckstein doesn't have a lot of options right now either, unless someone gets moved.

by Cardinal70 on Nov 28, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm starting to think he WOULD accept
since he seems to not be getting any interest on the market.  The Mets and White Sox have filled their needs.

by sdrone on Nov 28, 2007 12:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So, Mo has decided not to offer
arbitration to either Percival or Eckstein.  Either a)he's got some big plan brewing under the radar or b)he's already on vacation.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
Unless Miguel Tejada is headed over soon, it's inconceivable that we wouldn't offer Eck arbitration.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.
If you've got a player you don't want to resign and that player may accept arbitration, you don't offer it regardless of the draft picks. The Cardinals really don't want Eckstein back on anything more than a 1- or 2-year deal, while Eck is staring at a limited market that got a heck of a lot narrower before free agency season opened. A deal from an arbitrator may be the best deal Eckstein gets, and that takes control of the negotiation out of the Cardinals' hands.

You only offer arbitration to a player you don't want when its definate that player is going elsewhere. Otherwise, it's not worth the risk. (I'm not sure where Hardcore heard about Percival, 'cause that's news to me)

The St. Louis Dispatch story brings up Jack Wilson as a "growing possibility." That's also news to me...I would think the Pirates would hold onto him after cutting loose Izturis.

by Forsch31 on Nov 28, 2007 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought
that arbitration was by definition a one year deal.  If we only want Eck for one or two years at the most, then why not offer arbitration?  
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Nov 28, 2007 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...
I wasn't clear. The issue with offering Eckstein arbitration doesn't have to do with years, but having to do with the fact the Cardinals are obviously pursuing a better option. Wilson would be a better option; so would Tejada. Eck's defense and health are on a clear decline; the only reason why the Cardinals would even consider bringing him back at this point is because the free agent market is so thin at the position and they may go back to him if they can't get anybody in a trade. The problem is that while Eckstein is shopping for a longer deal, there aren't a lot of teams biting (so much so that he was willing to switch to 2nd base for the Mets). It's a realistic scenario that he could accept before the Cardinals find his replacement, which would force them to commit to him as their shortstop next year. Because that's their last option, they don't want to risk that.

by Forsch31 on Nov 28, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if Eckstein accepted the arbitration
and since he was marketing himself towards being a 2B for the Mets, at worst, he'd be a $5 M Aaron Miles and an insurance policy should any deals fall through for another SS.

I can't honestly believe the Cardinals are THAT afraid Eckstein will accept.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I Can
If Eckstein resigns through arbitration, he becomes the starter, not a back-up. St. Louis needs to find more consistant playing time for Ryan to see what they have in him, but that's not going to happen if he's playing behind Eckstein who's playing behind someone else. Miles isn't exactly a great comparison--Eckstein makes about five times the amount of everybody's absolutely favorite utility guy and played about just as well as him. Which is why the Cardinals don't want him to be the starter unless he's the only option.

As far Wilson goes, he would be an upgrade at defense, which the Cardinals need with their pitching staff, and he brings enough power to his offense to offset his strike-outs.

by Forsch31 on Nov 28, 2007 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

realistic cost
If Eck accepts arbitration, the worst case scenario seems that the Cards reduce the possibility of getting a big name SS.  However, I doubt that is their plan anyway.  I think they will put more of their resources towards a pitcher.  

Another reason arbitration seems to make sense for the Cards is that they have Brendan Ryan as a backup.  If Eck signs, Ryan can be there in case of an injury.  If Eck doesn't sign, then they get an extra pick and maybe they get to see what they have in Ryan.

I just don't see much downside to the arbitration play.

by michajo on Nov 28, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

plus
eck becomes a trade chip when jose reyes or rafael furcal or whomever breaks a leg in the middle of a playoff race.  
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 28, 2007 7:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They won't land
Tejada. And I'll take a year of Eckstein and the draft pick over Out Machine Wilson.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the arbiter
can't award a multiyear deal

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that is a skill only
Master Chief has when respawned.  As the arbiter, though, I believe you can take that ability to award a multiyear deal away from a fallen marine but will lose it at the next cutscene.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude
Spoiler alerts please ;)

Actually I won't be playing Halo, never really got into it more of a WoW addict myself.

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Percival, either?
Unless there was a deal made w/ Percival when he signed last year that we wouldn't offer him arbitration, it's absolute lunacy not to do it.  Inexcusable!

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you are on to something
I was searching to the story, but I stink @ the internets.  However I believe that it was a part of the deal with the Cards and Percival that they would not offer him arbitration

by gonzostl on Nov 28, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the deadline to offer is 12/1
the deadline for Eckstein to accept or reject is 12/7.

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great summary...red!
I don't recall if LB did a post about the '07 draft or not, but I'm sure there was more than one diary at the time.  It would be interesting to compare some the thoughts from the initial recaps to those in your analysis.  Overall, I would say that people are happier with our draft now than they were in the summer.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 28, 2007 11:19 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Kozma
I was pretty silent on the whole draft this year.  I guess it is pretty easy to jump on a bandwagon now when I really gave no opinion on the whole thing earlier.  

With that being said, I think it is interesting to see the mood of the community here regarding Pete as we have watched Eckstein's defensive skills erode and Miles prove to be completely inept at shortstop.  I believe there was a post a couple of days ago about getting Adam Everett and paying him a few million dollars to plug a gap at short for a couple of years.  When you look at the options at such a premium position, it is no wonder that the Cards went with a shortstop that is actually projected to STAY at short.  I think we can all hope that at the LEAST, Pete will turn out to be a better option at shortstop than Everett, Uribe, Ryan, Miles, or any of the other evils we are staring at for 2008.  He also seems to be fairly well-developed for a high-schooler.  If he maintains his great plate discipline and learns how to hit a few doubles, we may see him with the big club sooner rather than later.  Wouldn't it be nice to see an above-average defensive shortstop with leadoff skills under club control for 6 years or so?

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Nov 28, 2007 11:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

getting my copy of ba today
but in the meantime, what's the top 10?

by erik on Nov 28, 2007 11:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice work, RB
Really nice.

Henley's scouting report made me think of Mark Kotsay at the time.  Not enough pro data yet to see if that holds up, but it would be nice.  I kind of don't think he has Dyskstra's speed.  

The Twins must have been pretty surprised that Kozma was off the board.....

by siddfynch on Nov 28, 2007 11:46 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

BleedCubbieBlue has TLR's guilty DUI
plea as breaking news.  Al runs a good blog over there but I mean, come on...I don't even really care.  He could have gotten off from the thing because of the misconduct by the arresting officers caught on video.

Instead, he man'd up and took the punishment.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 12:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

With the history of this team
You think a DUI is something that should be written off especially if the police officer made an error in the processing of the report?

Nice...

The police officer's conduct did not cause Tony to drink and drive.

by SpringfieldDude on Nov 28, 2007 12:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Reread
If you reread what HL said he wasn't advocating throwing the DUI out the window.  What he said was that it would have been very easy to fight the arrest yet Tony chose not too.

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't particularly care
if an elderly man in Florida had too much wine and fell asleep driving home.  My life won't change whether he is convicted or not.

I'm more pointing to the idea that it is somehow 'breaking news'.  Goes back to the Jerry Seinfeld routine on 'Breaking News'

"It's Break..bre..break..breakingright now.  It's breaking so fast that we are going to talk about it and scroll it at the bottom of the screen.  It just changed, it's breaking again."

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 12:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The history of this team has nothing to do with it
Especially when the history you are referring to (Hancock accident) happened after Tony's DUI. They were unrelated incidents and the two events alone don't constitute a history.

Was it a poor choice for Tony to make? Yes.  Was the situation magnified by his position as manager? Yes, and arguably, deservedly so.  But who among us has never driven after drinking, even once, in their lives?  I would wager very, very few.  

I guess I've just got that mid-western mentality of forgive and forget.  What ever happened to "everybody gets ONE."?

by SethWestern on Nov 28, 2007 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was about to:
I was just about to post this link since I just read the article.  To me it was manning up, saying "I messed up" and trying to find the best way to not effect his team.
Lets hope people follow his advice and don't do the same thing he did.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3131475

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 12:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1
Tony could have fought it, but he took the punishment instead.  I agree, he manned up.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 28, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

7 figures?
is that correct? tyler henley got a 7 figure bonus? i had no idea that baseball players get bonuses comparable to early first round NFL picks.

by ZVcorvette on Nov 28, 2007 12:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Porcello signed
a $7 million major league deal (I'm not looking it up so someone correct me on the specifics if I'm off). There's at least a good argument that you shouldn't do that with a high school pitcher. TINSTAAP and all that.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's an error
So is the fact that Reifer was a HS player.

by cariocacardinal on Nov 28, 2007 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My bad.
You're right, I had Reifer confused with another player, as far as being a high schooler.  

I did think that Henley got a bonus right around 1 mil. though.  Maybe it was only 800K or something.  I was thinking it was higher though.  

You bring home the turkey and I'll bring home the bacon.

by the red baron on Nov 29, 2007 7:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

question/suggestion
Before you get signed to do this analysis by a big league club (or perhaps after), it'd be interesting to see what the expected value of a draft is, based on historical data.  There'd definitely be a lot of volatility from team to team and year to year, but I could imagine looking team by team at the VORP or some other stat that the average team got out of the average draft two years out, three years out, four years out, etc.  This would eventually allow us to judge whether the Cards drafts are objectively good, bad or average.  A lot of work, I know, but if I were a GM and I knew someone was doing it, I'd be interested ;->

by mdhoffm2 on Nov 28, 2007 12:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Someone at
BTF/SOSH has done some good work with this. I think I might have it bookmarked at home, but I can't seem to find it right now.  Anyone know what I'm talking about?

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, this
isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Draft Slot Probabilities and Values

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fascinating stuff...
...but a little over my head.

by indakind on Nov 28, 2007 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone at BP
maybe Kevin Goldstein or Bryan Smith has done some work on this.  I remember that a supplemental 1st rounder and below is worth in the neighborhood of about $3.5 M.  He's estimated the numbers for the top 10 or 15, and then the next groups, etc.  If you have a subscription, do a search.

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rany Jazayerli
did a 12 part study of the draft back in the day over at BP.  Those are some of the best articles they've written over there, imo.  Search "draft value" under his name and you'll find them.

by azruavatar on Nov 28, 2007 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just wanted to put this back out there
Now that it appears the Cardinals are trending towards acquiring Jack Wilson and today's news that Matt Morris is on the trading block, I bring back up the diary where I made the case for these two from the Pirates:

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/10/7/161119/578

Wilson still makes the most sense.  Taking on Morris is what helps 'cheapen' the deal from the Cardinals end (less given up).

Adding a new twist to the whole dynamic is the idea that the Cardinals are in the market for Lohse and Silva.  When you stack Silva and Lohse up against Morris using their ZiPs


Name  Age    ERA   W   L   G  GS     INN    H   ER  HR   BB    K
Lohse  29   4.78  10  10  34  29   177.0  197   94  22   54  109
Silva  29   4.83  11  13  32  30   190.0  228  102  26   29   81
Morris 33   4.98   9  13  30  30   188.0  222  104  21   60  106

Again, I ask you, if the Cardinals are THAT interested in getting into the Lohse and Silva bidding, wouldn't it be wiser for them to take on Morris at $10.5 M for one year than to sign on for 4 years+ of the mediocre Silva and Lohse?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Matty Mo
Personally I am beginning to really like the idea of Wilson and Morris from the Pirates.  Some people don't really like Wilson but I think he would be good enough and hopefully Jose could work with him and make him better.  Matty may need a new pitching plan which is something Duncan has always been good at.  Morris isn't the same pitcher he used to be and thus he should work on pitching with what he has left not trying to be what he used to be.

Wainwright, Morris, Looper, Pineiro, Mulder would be a decent stop gap rotation till 09 as long as Morris and Looper can give you the innings you expect from them.

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Heh. It could also be a rotation
that just absolutely BLOWS UP!

by sdrone on Nov 28, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But would it be any better with Silva or
Kyle Lohse?  Strauss, et al. find a way to drop that nugget into almost every story about the Cardinals interest in those two FA pitchers.

I'd rather not see that comitment made.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yuck!
Trading someone for the right to pay Morris something like $12.5 M? We could sign Jon Lieber and Jason Jennings for less than that and they'd be at least as good, probably better.

What's his nuts over at the p-d, Strauss, made it appear as though he's "only" owed $10.5 M but that's not true. Morris' $2 M signing bonus is also payable when the contract expires . So we'd be on the hook for next year's salary ($9.5), buying him out of his option in '09 ($1.0), + the signing bonus. And then we'd also trade something for the right to pay Jack Wilson more than $14 M?

Again, Lieber, Jennings, and Brendan Ryan would make the team better for less than Wilson and Morris and we wouldn't have to give up any players to do it.

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bill James
might as well throw Bill James projections in there too:


Name    W  L  ERA  IP   H  HR  BB   K
Silva   9 13 4.61 199 239  26  35  82
Lohse  10 11 4.69 188 210  24  58 116
Morris 10 11 4.17 192 207  21  53 120

James appears to be really high on Morris (relatively speaking).

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What
What do you think STL would have to give up to get Morris/Wilson?

What does Pitt need at this point?

by ICbirdfan on Nov 28, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If they took on
the $25 million that those two were owed, then ... a broken fungo bat? Their dignity?

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
I don't like picking up $25 Million for those two guys.

I would just stay away.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 28, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The contracts break down
2008
Wilson : $6.5 M
Morris : $9.5 M

2009
Wilson : $7.25 M
Morris : $1 M (Buyout)

2010
Wilson : $0.6 M (Buyout)

Unless my math is off, he gave them an extra $2 M that isn't there.  Also, they wouldn't take on all of Morris' payroll in the past so it is doubtful they will do it again this time.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks
Thanks!  That makes more sense and as you said earlier Morris would be more of a one year deal guy.  Are you thinking 1 year with Wilson?

Morris just seems to be heading in the wrong direction.  I wonder if he just needs to learn a new way of pitching like a poster said.  I would agree Morris needs to kind of reinvent himself.

I also agree with what you said about looking at Brendan Ryan.  He is such a question mark it is really hard to fully evaluate the guy.  I like just playing Ryan at SS for this next season but I looked at the FA SS list for 2009 and it does not look that good.  I think it may be a good idea to pick up Jack Wilson for a couple years.  

by ICbirdfan on Nov 28, 2007 3:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I get
$24.85mm in guaranteed money. I just eyeballed it before that last post anyway.

And my point is that those dudes are a 200 thousand dollar house with a 300 thousand dollar mortgage, so we shouldn't give up any talent.

They aren't worthless as players, so it just depends on what Pittsburgh is willing to eat. Paying Wilson over $7mm next year just seems ridiculous. He had a nice year last year, and has a good glove, but paying that kind of scratch for a sub-.700 OPS is pretty loony if you ask me.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm
"next year" = 2009. Somehow.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be $26.85 M total
you forgot Morris' signing bonus. It's due at the end of Morris' contract. See my post above .

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

James appears to be really high on Morris
or just really high! bu dum

sorry couldn't resist

by Birds on the Matt on Nov 28, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My issue is
that I really don't think Wilson can out hit Ryan (not that Ryan could out hit Wilson) so the Runs scored will at best stay the same. so how many more runs will Wilson save over Ryan? Remember Ryan isn't bad. 20? 30? I just don't like the idea of giving up talent and adding salary to hope that you have more 2-1 games.

As for Morris.

Did he start pitching with the Cards when he was 10? He has to be the oldest 33 year old on the planet.

I wouldn't hate it if Morris came back...and of the 3: Morris, Silva or Lohse. I'll take Morris thank you.

by Harknights on Nov 28, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1995
Here are Morris's minor league numbers:

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=25067

He started in 1995 and turned 21 in August of that year (born Aug 1974).

Spent two seasons in the minors before jumping in for 33 GS in 97, split time in 98 (injury?).  Has had more then 30 GS in all but 2 seasons (98 and 03).  His ERA Ballooned in 04 to 4.72 after averaging sub 4.0 ERAs before that.  But right now I will take a warm body giving me 30 starts at the back end of this rotation just to buy time till 09.

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not going to argue the merits of
Ryan over Wilson (or visa versa) because Ryan is a bit of an unknown.  He could have played over his head last year, he could have simply been bored in AAA (as was rumored) or he could be Bo Hart.

What I do know is what Strauss said and that is LaRussa won't endorse Ryan as the starting SS.

As far as Wilson, he's a bit of a passionate guy.  He hates the Cardinals and loves killing them when he plays against them.  He has said as much on FSN numerous times.  Not that he hates the organization, however the Cardinals have been the dominate team in the NL Central and Wilson has viewed beating the Cardinals as a measuring stick.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wilson
I always took Wilson's dislike/hate or what ever you call it to be because he used to be a StL farmhand before going to the pirates.

by StLHugo on Nov 28, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

im sorry but
conversation has hit a low when we are considering matt morris. The cards made a right move by letting the dude walk. Although he did pitch a good game against the A's when I was there 90% of his highlights last yr was turning his head watching the ball fly...Yes He's a former card who had a few good yrs but he'd be just another patch..

Since we are ravaging the pirates for players why not former players as well?
-John Smiley?
-Jose Lind? Heard he still has the range.
-Barry Bonds?
-Andy van slyke can still roam the OF maybe platoon him..

ok sorry for the sarcasm, but hey not every day i get to refernece Jose Lind

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 28, 2007 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

et al
maybe if we take morris and wilson, they'll throw in jason bay?

by sportsman on Nov 28, 2007 10:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't Wilson single handedly shut us down
one game making plays out of his arse???
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 28, 2007 10:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Chris Capuano
mlbtraderumors has reported that MIL will offer contracts to Capuano.  After the terrible losing streak and the bullpen demotion, Capuano is kinda damaged goods. Here are the ZiPS. the stats look pretty enticing.

Chris Capuano             29   4.48  12  12  33  31   195.0  207   97  25   52  154

would the GM Bob Melvin be willing to trade Capuano? maybe, but probably not within the division.

I'd rather my sister become a prostitute than my brother become a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Nov 28, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If we're going to go get Morris and Wilson...
I want Bay, too.  He could go a long way in filling our RH OF need three-year OPS vs. LH - .948.

What would it take...who would we give?  Wilson and Morris are definite salary dumps.  

Looper? - He's cheaper than Morris and maybe better.
Piniero? - See Looper
Mulder? - See Piniero
Rolen? - Don't see the Bucs being interested...who plays third for STL?
Edmonds? - See Rolen...
Duncan? - Is he more valuable than the all three right now...pre-arb and all?  Would Pittsburgh trade all three for one player?

by cardzfanbub on Nov 28, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jack Wilson
Can anyone post Jack Wilson's ZIPs and Bill James projections? Or point me to where I can find them myself? Cheers!

by airhad on Nov 28, 2007 4:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

bill james says...
Brendan Ryan .267/.319/.348  (.668)
Jack Wilson  .277/.326/.394  (.720)

Not worth the $$$ imho.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 28, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here they are
Warning! -- Wilson's are no better than Ryan's.

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 4:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

to be fair
It is hard to project what Brendan Ryan is going to do.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 28, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You know
I think we both agree it is going to be in STL's best interest to play Ryan at SS in 2008 or make a trade for a SS in 2008.  Waiting till after the 2008 season would be a completely stupid thing to do if you think a FA SS is going to save the day.

2009 FA SS

not a chance in hell:
Alex Cintron
Alex Cora
Craig Counsel
Christian Guzman
Ramon Martinez
Juan Uribe

Wow!
Cesar Izturis

only if cheap (not likely to be cheap) can't hit:
Adam Everett

Guys who will be under contract likely:
Edgar Renteria
Orlando Cabrera

Don't sit and wait for the 2009 FA SS crop because it flat out sucks!

by ICbirdfan on Nov 28, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would Cabrera?
there's no option. Renteria has an option that will likely be picked up. And you left out Furcal -- another free agent. Granted, it's just two, but it's more than there are now.

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brendan Ryan won't play
LaRussa refuses to endorse him as the starting SS.  Whether or not Brendan Ryan is a better option at SS or not doesn't matter because he simply isn't an option at all.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 28, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AGREED
i noticed that lil tid bit in the strauss thing at mlbtraderumors...

Sounds like the end of the David Eckstein Era in St. Louis - Strauss says it's a widespread belief that Eckstein will not be offered arbitration and probably will not stay around.
While the Cards are drawn to Miguel Tejada, a deal seems highly unlikely.  John Mozeliak wants to move quickly to fill the shortstop position and the Orioles are taking their time with Tejada.
Sounds like there's a very good chance the Cards get Jack Wilson from the Bucs.  They're OK with paying all of the $13.75MM owed to him through 2009.
If Wilson doesn't work out, Cesar Izturis is the one free agent the Cardinals are considering.  They could have some competition from the Rays.
There isn't much interest in acquiring Juan Uribe or going with internal option Brendan Ryan.
A few speculative options not mentioned by Strauss: Cristian Guzman, Alexei Ramirez, Jason Bartlett, Adam Everett, Joaquin Arias, Clint Barmes, and Russ Adams.

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 28, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Please people, let's
NEVER mention Christian Guzman.  I've had to watch that stiff kill the Nats lineup for too long.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 29, 2007 9:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think
calling about a wilson/morris/bay package is not out of the question.  if littlefield still ran the show i'd be concerned about the asking price but it sounds as if the buc's new GM has a decent head on his shoulders.

if morris is out there as a free agent right now wouldn't he be in the same conversation as colon, jennings, livan, etc?  he might not command the $9 mil he is getting but its not that far off.  and its basically for one year if we want to.

i think looking at the pros/cons between wilson and ryan is a moot argument.  like hardcore said, larussa is not going to endorse ryan as the starting SS so its up to Mo to find a veteran option.

i think duncan + 1 or 2 middle prospects gets it done.  bay is better than duncan but us adding a prospect or 2 and picking up the other two salaries makes it a fair deal.

by FutureMan on Nov 28, 2007 5:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

How about Mo
puts the best most cost effective roster together than he can and LaRussa deals with it. This soap opera bullshit makes me want to vomit.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 5:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well
It may not only be Tony and I would suspect Mo knows enough about Brendan Ryan that if he really, really wanted him to play he could make it happen.

I think there is doubt, and I can understand it.  I don't think it necessarilly comes down to veteran vs. young guy, I think there are young guys Tony would be OK with starting at SS.  Brendan has a few more things to prove before he gets the nod as the starting SS.  His baseball IQ is pretty low and it shows.  He just needs to play a bit more smart consistently.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 28, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then he should
make it happen instead of signing someone crappy for millions and millions when he already has someone crappy in-house. I mean, Cesar Izturis is probably a worse option than Brian Barden. Wilson has a career 79 OPS+ for christ's sake.

I didn't notice that Ryan had a low baseball IQ, just some ADD. Frankly, that will get better, and if he can play (and Ryan can play a little) I could give a shit about that. But remember, that's not why he was sat down. He was sat because (paraphrasing) "he was smiling too much." LaRussa has some neat ideas about dues-paying and not enjoying yourself as a rookie I guess.

What a load of horseshit.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Will the Cards get a supplemental pick this year?
...since Troy Percival (type B) is signing with the Rays?

I know that the Cardinals did not intend to offer him arbitration, but does anyone know if they actually DECLINED to offer him arbitration?  

Because if they have not made a decision yet and he signs before Dec 12th, we will get a supplemental pick between the first and second rounds.  That would be awesome!

Let's build for '09...

by Born in 82 on Nov 28, 2007 6:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Percy
I think I remember hearing that there was a "gentleman's agreement" between the Cards and Percival that we would not offer arbitration. Sounds very strange, so I am probably way off base. I think something like this has been discussed somewhere here before though

I thought Percival had also mentioned he only wanted to pitch half of next season, so this stuff with the Rays is somewhat of a new twist

by brafi on Nov 28, 2007 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like ryan Lieber and keep
duncan better than shelling out for morris wilson and bay but wilsons glove would help>>

by cm1000 on Nov 28, 2007 7:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

OT
Does anyone know where I could find league averages for Hits, Stolen Bases, and others?

I'm writing a report on EqA for extra credit; turns out that EqA is harder to calculate than I originally thought.

by marioman42 on Nov 28, 2007 9:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

BRef has
league averages for slash stats. BP has average EQA for each position. You can find averages for most rates by digging around. ZIPS projections has average lines built into the projection spreads, eg.

You'd have to use a paying time cutoff for counting stats or else the "averages" would be pretty skewed.  If you are calculating EQA averages you'd get a selection bias that doesn't represent the MLB population.

If you are going to calculate EQA the best way would be to take league totals and use that, which I think is what BPro does on their EQA page.

I don't know if any of that helps, or if I'm addressing what you are trying to do at all. Sorry if that's confusing.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 9:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess it
wouldn't make it skewed, on second thought. Either way, since it's a rate, you could just use totals.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 9:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And if you are
writing a paper on it, I'm sure you know that the average EQA is going to be about .260 on purpose. So maybe I'm not following what you are trying to do at all. OK, enough out of me.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 9:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I was unclear
My teacher has followed baseball for 20+ years, and I have followed it for ~3.5 years.  We got into a discussion about stats and I mentioned EqA.  He had never heard about it, and I only knew a little bit, mainly what I had read about it on FJM.  He's always looking to broaden his knowledge, so he said I could write a report on it for extra credit.

Fast forward about a month, and I decide to get the formula from FJM.  Turns out, thats the formula for Raw EqA.  So after ~10 min. of searching, I find the formula to get EqA, but no data.  I know I can find the EqA of players, but I'd like to deminstrate how to find EqA using the formuals that I found to prove that it works.  So, in the report I'm trying to use Albert as an example of how to find EqA.  It also doesn't help that I'm typing this report on a school computer, therefore most of the sites that could help me are blocked.

I didn't quite understand what you ment when you said to take the league totals and use those.  Do you mean 1) all of the home runs everyone in MLB hit last year or 2) the number of home runs the average player hit.

I wasn't sure which to use, and assumed that I need option 2.  But I guess I now know what assuming does.

by marioman42 on Nov 28, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One Problem
I used this formula from baseball prospectus:

     H + TB + 1.5*(BB + HBP) + SB
EqA  =   ----------------------------
      AB + BB + HBP + CS + SB/3

Using Albert's stats, the formula looks like this:

     185 + 321 + 1.5*(99 + 7) + 2
EqA  =   ----------------------------
      565 + 99 + 7 + 6 + 2/3

Which gives Albert an EqA of .984.

I know he is Albert Pujols, but I'm pretty sure an EqA that high, while not impossible, would require the best season ever.

I'll try to post the formula(s) I found tomorrow, but no guarantees.(sp?)

by marioman42 on Nov 28, 2007 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's the whole
thing divided by three, not the stolen bases.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 11:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nevermind
that is the actual formula in the article I linked.

I can't find how to get beyond Raw EQA anywhere, but my guess is that you divide by three like you divide GPA by four. That would give you an EQA one point from Albert's single season-adjusted EQA.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 11:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that
you can use either. I don't think that any site is going to have "average hits" or "stolen bases" because for the most part that is useless information. There are so many guys that get a cup of coffee, 1 or 20 or 60 at-bats, that "average hits" per player or any counting stat is going to be largely meaningless.

But I guess the math would work. For example: Lets say that you had the average batting average for every single player in the big leagues and there are 1,000 hitters. They all got different amounts of playing time so you have to weight it correctly. If you know the components for every player (the number of at-bats and number of hits), you could just divide both of those numbers by 1,000 to find the average, the do your H/AB calculation.

However, since the ratio is going to be the same, you can just use the totals. H*1,000/AB*1,000 = H/AB.

If you are trying to find the average then you can just use the totals. You can find league totals at Baseball Reference. Eg, here is the NL 2007 page.

Anyway, on the Baseball Prospectus EQA page, this is all done for you. You can get positional averages, and team EQA.

EQA is designed so that league EQA is always .260, so that it mimics batting average in scale.

I don't know if you can read this without a subscription (or any of the links for that matter), but here is an article called About EQA" by Clay Davenport.

And lastly the definition from the stats glossary, some of which I guess I've made redundant. Sorry.

Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. EQA considers batting as well as baserunning, but not the value of a position player's defense. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty. The scale is deliberately set to approximate that of batting average. League average EqA is always equal to .260. EqA is derived from Raw EqA, which is (H + TB + 1.5*(BB + HBP + SB) + SH + SF) divided by (AB + BB + HBP + SH + SF + CS + SB). REqA is then normalized to account for league difficulty and scale to create EqA.

by plh903 on Nov 28, 2007 11:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ryan said he really wants to play for the Dodgers
some day. SO how about we give him what he wants and deal him with Rolen for whatever we can get back. Preferably Laroche. Eat some cash if you have to damn it. If you are willing to eat Wilsons salary should be willing to eat some of Rolens to get a young promising 3B.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 28, 2007 10:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

...lets not eat...
How about we eat some apple pie instead of anybodys salary.... Trading Rolen right now is not a smart thing to do IMHO. Laroche is "promising"?

I'd rather see a hot pitching prospect anyway. So are several other prospects at SS and 3rd basemen all around the minors. Lets see what interest Rolen brings next Aug.? Even if its little more than zippo then, it cant be much worse than now.

By the way Red Baron, I know you had a leader post somewhere way up there...Ive enjoyed the draft summaries, learned more than I thought I would, forgot much of it over time. Nice....!

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 29, 2007 4:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

LaRoche
LaRoche to me is like the Rasmus of 3B prospects, I would take him in a heartbeat for Rolen and Ryan.  He has major league experience as well, even if it wasn't impressive.

by StLHugo on Nov 29, 2007 8:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kansas boy.....
I dont think you can swing a dead cat in Fort Scott Ks without hitting somebody wearing a Laroche T-shirt or hat, Im aware of who he is and would indeed package up Ryan etc etc for him.

But IF and WHEN Rolen goes, Id like to see it net a #1 fireballing stud pitcher next Aug and see Rolen go somewhere and win another WS ring.

I dont think the Dodgers want to see Laroche go either.

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 30, 2007 5:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

while you're at your new MLB gig red,
dont forget to remember all the little people here at VEB who helped you get that gig.

nice work as always.

side note, the wwl said the sheriff in FL released the dash cam tape of Tony's DUI. has any one seen that? reason i'm asking is i'm surprised they did that because didnt the deputy's harass Tony & make fun of him? why would a sheriff's department release the taps if it made them look bad?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 29, 2007 5:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Izturis
Let's see -- the guy can't hit for average, can't get on base, has no power, and a history of chronic back and hamstring problems.  Sure, he's nifty with the glove, he's only 28 years old (or will be next year), and his contract is for only one year, but seriously, there are -- no exaggeration -- 50 shortstops in organized baseball who can do what he does.  So why would you give him anything more than a backup role or anything above a league-minimum salary?  If this is the kind of decision making we have to look forward to under Mozeliak, then color me very afraid...
Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 30, 2007 3:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

sorry
i accidentally posted this at the wrong place... moving it now...
Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Nov 30, 2007 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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