projecting scotty
in the comments to yesterday's thread, somebody asked "what's a realistic expectation for rolen?" my memory's not what it used to be, but i don't recall ever having answered that question properly, ie sitting down to establish parameters that are based in fact. so here we go.
the first thing i did was isolate rolen's stat line after his cortisone shot last july. the shot did yield some temporary improvement vis-vis the mobility in rolen's shoulder; the subsequent surgery (in september) was intended to make that improvement more permanent. it won't restore the lost strength in the joint, but it might make him quick enough to get around on an inside fastball instead of popping it to short. so i'm regarding the post-cortisone period as a rough proxy for rolen's physical ability post-surgery. let's take a look:
| AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | AVG | OBP | SLG | |||
| 2007 pre cortisone | 275 | 37 | 72 | 14 | 2 | 4 | 39 | .262 | .338 | .371 | ||
| 2007 post cortisone | 117 | 18 | 32 | 10 | 0 | 4 | 19 | .274 | .315 | .462 |
under other circumstances, we'd consider that post-cortisone line to be a slump for scotty; as things stand today, it's cause for mild optimism. if the surgery enables him to sustain that level of performance over 500 at-bats, he'd hit 40 doubles and 17 homers, and contribute about 80 runs and 80 rbi. put that together with superlative defense, and he's worth the $12 million easy.
but we're dealing with a small and untrustworthy sample size. to fatten it up slightly, i went back and looked at a couple slices of rolen's 2006 season. you'll recall that his shoulder got steadily weaker over the course of the year; by september he needed a few days off to rest it, and by the end of the nlds he required a cortisone injection (which, like the 2007 shot, loosened the joint and immediately improved his performance). i decided to isolate two periods: first, his post-all-star line; second, the period between the all-star break and september 1, when his shoulder became so weak he could barely play. again, i'm groping for a rough approximation of what his physical capabilities might be post-surgery. here are those parameters:
| AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | AVG | OBP | SLG | |||
| 2007 post cortisone | 117 | 18 | 32 | 10 | 0 | 4 | 19 | .274 | .315 | .462 | ||
| 2006 post all-star | 237 | 35 | 60 | 20 | 1 | 8 | 38 | .253 | .333 | .447 | ||
| 2006, all-star thru 8/31 | 148 | 25 | 40 | 14 | 1 | 5 | 24 | .270 | .351 | .480 |
as with the small post-cortisone sample from 2007, these are batting lines we'd have cringed at once upon a time but would now regard as gifts from on high. per 500 at-bats, they translate into 40+ doubles, nearly 20 homers, and run / rbi totals in the 80s.
as a third check, i looked at the available 2008 projections for rolen (ie, ZIPS, CHONE, and bill james). i pro-rated them for 500 at-bats and lined them up w/ the foregoing stat lines, also pro-rated for 500 at-bats. numbers:
| AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | AVG | OBP | SLG | |||
| 2007 post cortisone | 500 | 77 | 137 | 43 | 2 | 17 | 81 | .274 | .315 | .462 | ||
| 2006 2d half | 500 | 74 | 127 | 42 | 2 | 17 | 80 | .253 | .333 | .447 | ||
| bill james | 500 | 81 | 141 | 35 | 2 | 19 | 89 | .282 | .367 | .475 | ||
| chone | 500 | 69 | 137 | 31 | 2 | 17 | 75 | .274 | .353 | .449 | ||
| ZIPS | 500 | 74 | 128 | 33 | 1 | 12 | 72 | .255 | .331 | .397 |
aside from ZIPS, all these lines are singing in harmony --- average of about .275, slugging avg in the .450 range, and run/rbi totals approximating 80. on a just-eyeballing basis, those figures are in harmony w/ rolen's career averages, adjusted for age and health. so i'm thinking they're reasonable expectations. if rolen can perform at that level, it'd goose the st louis offense by maybe 15 runs over 2006 and more than justify the $12m he's getting paid. what it won't do is alter the foul dynamic betw rolen and la russa. but if scotty exhibits a little sock, the cards may get a decent trade offer on him --- and i'm advocating neither for nor against a trade; just scenariating.
items:
- per the post-dispatch, mozeliak expects a lotta trade activity at the winter meetings.
- Hardcore Legend is chasing old baseball footage at his new blog.
- milb.com is counting down the top 50 prospects in the game; no stl players listed between #41 and #50.
- the 1986 cardinals are headed due south; they've lost 7 of their last 10 and are now in 4th place. the mets just completed an early-season 4-game sweep of the birds at busch, exactly as it happened in real life; 3 of the games were decided by 1 run (1-0, 2-1, and 4-3). 21 years later, and that damn team still hasn't learned how to hit. poor old john tudor has a 1.93 era but only 1 win to show for it; greg mathews is winless despite a 2.37 era.
89 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Thanks for the above
I understand that pre-2006 stats are of no value because of the severity of the injury, but has the shoulder so worsened between mid 2006 and today that his stats from that time are not instructive of what could be possible (even if only the upper boundary of his potential) in 2008?
just trying to be conservative / realistic
Fair enough
point well taken
This is something
could be
what a mashup of factors for this guy --- passed the age-30 threshold, 2 surgeries, new ballpark, and he hates the manager. and there's also the PED issue, which conceivably could be a factor for any power hitter whose numbers dropped off since 2005 . . . . .
I am unsure of exactly how
maybe
by Birds on the Matt on Nov 27, 2007 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Good angle Spaz,
by Handsome Jimmy on Nov 27, 2007 10:05 AM EST reply actions
It's a "smoke and mirrors" article...
The Cardinals are looking for another pitcher (duh); that pitcher (whoever he is) is probably going to come to the club via trade. As to who's available, and whadda we gotta give up for him... Mo ain't sayin', and shouldn't!
by The Ol Goaler on Nov 27, 2007 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Cortisone vs. surgery
Hopefully the successful surgery has freed up the scar tissue, allowing the capsule and articular fluid to heal. This will allow him to fully strengthen the shoulder in the full range of motion. This includes above shoulder level, across the body, and extending outward - positions he needs to be able to move into freely and without pain to turn on an inside pitch.
Medically speaking, Scotty's "post-cortisone" numbers should be lower end of what we can expect from him. I expect him to eclipse 40 doubles and 20 homers this year.
Here's hoping Bill James is right!
- Reyes - 3.88 ERA
- Looper - 3.98 ERA
- Carpenter - 3.5 ERA and 25 starts?! Dream on...
- Wainer - 4.06 ERA
- Piniero - 4.53 ERA
- Mulder - 4.34 ERA
- Rolen - 842 OPS
- Edmonds - 867 OPS
- Pujols - 1,059 OPS
- C. Duncan - 861 OPS
- Rasmus - 837 OPS, 490 ABs?
- Ankiel - 800 OPS
Anywho, I picked up James's book the other day and as always it is worth the 20 bucks. Purchase yours at Amazon.com or baseballinfosolutions.com. Highly reccomended! The 2008 Bill James Handbook!
Sorry about the tangent!
Additional good news, when the Yankees were inquiring on Rolen, Mo asked for one of Joba, Phil, or Ian. Not that he had any chance at getting these guys, but it is interesting that he started off in space. Either he is playing his cards close like Jock used to or he is a cadet orbitting in space?!
That looks crazy
by CardFaninVA on Nov 27, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yep
As for true pessimism - one could infer that Wainers projection is slightly pessimistic. He doesn't expect Kennedy/Ryan/Molina/Eckstein to improve with Molina really taking a hit, but when you go from 720 OPS to 680, the marginal impact is not that much....
As for the Pythagorean, unfortunately I am the wrong man for the job. I know the A squared, B squared, C squared stuff, but past that... whewww.. not sure
Does he give a specific reason
if reyes has a lower ERA than wainwright
by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Understand, but don't agree
Now, from the believe what you see/read department, obviously Wainer had a far better year and has a better shot with the Cards, but when you looked at his stuff the first half of last year, it wasn't much to write home about... Things changed for the better in the second half and you have to believe that Wainer has a #2 ceiling these days,,,
but that doesn't mean Reyes doesn't have a shot at the "projected" ERA
His projections
James
Haren
With Oakland considering trading him, i wonder what it would take to get him back. Reyes may actually be a good fit with their big ballpark. But we'd probably have to include a couple of our Top 5-7 prospects not including Colby. I'd consider Reyes, Garcia and Ottavino for 3 years of Haren at reasonable prices. Not sure if Oakland would.
Without reading the article
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
hmmmm
I really don't need another lefty who's looked below average a lot the past two years and has a funky delivery that could lead to injury problems.
No thank you
I would hope they wouldn't give up
Mulder wasn't a buy low guy, as far as I remember.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
mulder was buy high
by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Mulder was damaged goods...
Willia = Steve Avery
Let's look (dropping fractions of an IP):
Age Avery IP/ERA Willis IP/ERA
21 210/3.38 160/3.30
22 233/3.20 197/4.02
23 223/2.94 236/2.63
24 151/4.04 223/3.87
25 173/4.67 205/5.17
26 131/4.47
After age 26, Avery never had an ERA below 5 again. I think the basic theory was he pitched too many innings at a young age. From Age 21 to age 25 Avery had around 990 IP, Willis 1021. The jumos in ERA from age 23-25 seem pretty similar.
Dontrelle's declining peripherals are a big worry--his K/W rate is tanking (from 3.01 in 2005 to 1.68 in 2007), and his homerun rate skyrocketting: (from .42/9IP in 2005 to 1.27.9IP in 2007). I'd be reluctant to give up much for him.
Sorry for Typos
Willis = Steve Avery?
I could swear I remember reading something comparing Willis with Steve Avery.
Let's look (dropping fractions of an IP):
Age Avery IP/ERA Willis IP/ERA
21 210/3.38 160/3.30
22 233/3.20 197/4.02
23 223/2.94 236/2.63
24 151/4.04 223/3.87
25 173/4.67 205/5.17
26 131/4.47
After age 26, Avery never had an ERA below 5 again. I think the basic theory was he pitched too many innings at a young age. From Age 21 to age 25 Avery had around 990 IP, Willis 1021. The jumps in ERA from age 23-25 seem pretty similar.
Dontrelle's declining peripherals are a big worry--his K/W rate is tanking (from 3.01 in 2005 to 1.68 in 2007), and his homerun rate skyrocketting: (from .42/9IP in 2005 to 1.27.9IP in 2007). I'd be reluctant to give up much for him.
trading for haren
by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Surgery
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 27, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions
Closed manipulation
Rolen had arthroscopic debridement in addition to the manip.
Thanks
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 27, 2007 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the link
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions
I guess I could also take this chance to ask
If you have any pre-1976 Cardinals games, whether it be on film, tape or dvd...please speak up. Besides the entire 1968 World Series that floats around, MLB is rumored to have purchased some of the 1967 Series.
Other than that, full game broadcasts for the Cards don't exist prior to '76.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I like the blog, Hardcore
One quick note and then I'll quit hijacking this thread: The font seems a little small on your site. Nothing Firefox can't fix, but I thought I'd mention it.
I just opened it up in Firefox
Thanks for looking. The baseball film collector's group is a very secretive group of people, in general. They don't want people to know what they have or how much of it they have for fear MLB will come in and take it away. They can't sell their stuff unless they have an 'in' with MLB that will look the other way.
It's really a shame. There is much more out there than any of us really know that is kept in secret. The Larsen Perfect game was kept hidden for over 2 decades. There are rumors that the Maris 61* game is in someone's collection.
I'm just trying to take what little hints, what little footage leaks out and collect it all in one place.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Effin, when I started
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 27, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't classify it as "hard"
You're right
Actually, good point
Well, yes and no.
But it was indeed hard, in the sense that it required a lot of effort to get certain information. It was hard to get cash too, in the days before ATMs ... a real effort was required.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 27, 2007 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
oh where art thou..
i am not unbiased at all regarding rolen. i keep hoping he finds his health, retuns close to pre-current-shoulder issue which are 2004 #s and finds that he doesn't hate it in STL and can at least learn to tolerate TLR. ahhh, the power of dreaming :)
by HoosierCardFan on Nov 27, 2007 10:41 AM EST reply actions
rolen
by cm1000 on Nov 27, 2007 10:43 AM EST reply actions
I find it interesting that Rolen's OBP
Top prospects
Where does everyone think Colby will end up on this list?
Probably 2nd
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think Top 5
mlb.com...
i just imagine that with their marketing bias, colby will fall to around 8, with someone embarrassing in front of him like ellsbury.
by johnstonburg on Nov 27, 2007 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
3 Missouri boys in a row...
Anyone else think Clement was a little low at #46? with that power I would think he would be at least top 25 even though he could turn out to be another Rob Deer/Russell Branyan...
I saw Detwiler pitch a couple of time
gomez was down on him
i really feel like he deserved that job. his analysis of mulder was dead on.
by johnstonburg on Nov 27, 2007 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don't pretend to be a mechanics expert
First round draft pick and a top 50 prospect in America? He may not be the next Chris Carpenter, but he's a fine pitcher. And I wouldn't describe that article as "down on him." It was fair and balanced, but also praised his pitching. Just had questions about his mechanics.
sooo....
When considering trading with the
If I were the Twins, I would focus on the Dodgers. With a farm system in MN that can't produce offensive talent but has bushels of good young pitchers (Bonser, Graza, Baker, Liriano just to name a few) the Dodgers are the only team of the four above with the depth of offensive talent.
Angels and Miggy
He is....
Might
if the twins could get some offense
by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
But for the Twins
This is why I don't understand how a Melky Cabrera centered package makes sense for the Twins.
I never thought Cleveland's
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 27, 2007 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Well
mlb trade rumors
by cm1000 on Nov 27, 2007 12:45 PM EST reply actions
the only thing
good point
IMO best hope at trade of rolen is he comes abck healthy and they trade him at his peak b4 he gets hurt again.
isn't feliz a free agent?
by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Josh Kinney
by Handsome B Wonderful on Nov 27, 2007 2:20 PM EST reply actions
Broke his arm
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Since the Post Dispatch doesn't believe
Kinney breaks bone in elbow
By Derrick Goold
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/22/2007
As he recovers from Tommy John surgery, reliever Josh Kinney broke a bone in his right elbow last week while playing catch and had surgery Friday to repair the fracture.
Kinney arrived Tuesday at Busch Stadium wearing a camouflaged cast over his entire right arm.
He said he had a screw inserted in the broken bone Friday, and he expects to be out six to eight weeks, wearing a cast for the next three weeks.
Kinney, who had the ligament surgery in spring training, said the latest injury wouldn't delay his return.
"This will give my ligament that much more time to heal," he said. "Everything else is good. That's the good news. I just cracked a bone."
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, I was just gonna paste that here
rolen
i feel pretty optimistic about rolen. i think 2006 shows that his shoulder is at least fundamentally ok. his ld rate was 19% last year, so, if some power returns, he should be an above average 3b. i feel like 280/350/480 is reasonable, but i admit that makes me much more optimistic than most people.
by johnstonburg on Nov 27, 2007 8:59 PM EST reply actions
Not worth 12 million. Trade Rolen for anything.
Wilson Betemit (.788)
Oakland got 41 games and .792 ops out of Jack Hannahan
Philly got 68 games and .780 ops out of Greg Dobbs
Our Cards used Brendan Ryan (.752), Russell Branyan (.752), and Scott Spiezio (.739)
Morgan Ensberg was DFAd and traded for a ham sandwich last year.
I could probably go on, but you can creatively save 7-10 million for the next 3 years and not give up a lot dumping Rolen for a box of baseballs.
With the Yanks no longer in need, the top options, that conveniently are loaded w/ prospects, are the LA teams. The "loser" of the Cabrera sweepstakes can merely give up one prospect for Scott Rolen rather than 3 or 4 for Miggy. Brandon Wood, Nick Adenhart, Howie Kendrick, Erick Aybar, Kendry Morales, Ervin Santana, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Kemp, James Loney (flip for someone else), Chad Billingsley, Andy LaRoche, and Andre Ethier would all be great.
Stop saying what-if for 2008 and do what is right for 2009 and beyond. Trade Rolen for anything.
this makes no sense
either he's a terrible value (ergo not worth anything in trade), or he's a good value (hence worth a decent prospect). i think it's the latter --- i think he'll prove himself to be worth the $$$. but you can't have it both ways.
doesn't make cents, makes dollars.
he's not worth $12m if he continues to slug .400
they'll never get anything for him until he shows he can hit. when's the last time a team traded a good prospect for an expensive, declining, oft-injured, over-30 player? that doesn't happen anymore; teams are smarter than that. but if rolen shows that he can still hit, then you might find a team willing to offer a good prospect --- and if that opportunity arises, i'd be all in favor.
but if he can still hit, then he's worth $12m a year. . . . . it'd be nice if they could turn a valueless veteran into a valuable prospect, but it's not that easy anymore. teams have wised up.
upside and defense
One of the things that's interesting about
It seems that BP's WARP places a higher value on defense than THT's WSAB does as I've noticed that BP has Molina's value being much higher than THT does. Is he worth the $12M, I don't know and the experts don't agree either. If you believe BP, he almost was last year based, almost exclusively, on his defense. If you believe THT, which also has him as a very good defensive player but places less of a value on being good defensively, he's going to have to get much better offensively to be worth the $12 M.
but houstoncard, the THT calculates NET value
as a test, i ran the numbers for albert pujols in 2007. he was worth 19 WSAB on a salary of $15m. the THT calculator spits out a net worth of $7.5m --- but it's not saying that albert should have been paid $7.5m in 2007, it's saying the cards netted $7.5m worth of value on his contract; he delivered $22.5m worth of performance.
for rolen to be worth $12m (ie, a net value of 0), he'd need to deliver about 8 WSABs --- about 3 wins above replacement.
Question about JED
jed no-trade
the cards with this protection are jed, izzy, and rolen
by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 28, 2007 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
if the angels dont get miggy
by cm1000 on Nov 28, 2007 9:48 AM EST reply actions



















