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Around SBN: Clippers Need To Realize That Spurs Are The Anti-Grizzlies

projecting scotty

in the comments to yesterday's thread, somebody asked "what's a realistic expectation for rolen?" my memory's not what it used to be, but i don't recall ever having answered that question properly, ie sitting down to establish parameters that are based in fact. so here we go.

the first thing i did was isolate rolen's stat line after his cortisone shot last july. the shot did yield some temporary improvement vis-vis the mobility in rolen's shoulder; the subsequent surgery (in september) was intended to make that improvement more permanent. it won't restore the lost strength in the joint, but it might make him quick enough to get around on an inside fastball instead of popping it to short. so i'm regarding the post-cortisone period as a rough proxy for rolen's physical ability post-surgery. let's take a look:

AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
2007 pre cortisone 275 37 72 14   2   4 39 .262 .338 .371
2007 post cortisone 117 18 32 10   0   4 19 .274 .315 .462

under other circumstances, we'd consider that post-cortisone line to be a slump for scotty; as things stand today, it's cause for mild optimism. if the surgery enables him to sustain that level of performance over 500 at-bats, he'd hit 40 doubles and 17 homers, and contribute about 80 runs and 80 rbi. put that together with superlative defense, and he's worth the $12 million easy.

but we're dealing with a small and untrustworthy sample size. to fatten it up slightly, i went back and looked at a couple slices of rolen's 2006 season. you'll recall that his shoulder got steadily weaker over the course of the year; by september he needed a few days off to rest it, and by the end of the nlds he required a cortisone injection (which, like the 2007 shot, loosened the joint and immediately improved his performance). i decided to isolate two periods: first, his post-all-star line; second, the period between the all-star break and september 1, when his shoulder became so weak he could barely play. again, i'm groping for a rough approximation of what his physical capabilities might be post-surgery. here are those parameters:

AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
2007 post cortisone 117 18 32 10   0   4 19 .274 .315 .462
2006 post all-star 237 35 60 20   1   8 38 .253 .333 .447
2006, all-star thru 8/31 148 25 40 14   1   5 24 .270 .351 .480

as with the small post-cortisone sample from 2007, these are batting lines we'd have cringed at once upon a time but would now regard as gifts from on high. per 500 at-bats, they translate into 40+ doubles, nearly 20 homers, and run / rbi totals in the 80s.

as a third check, i looked at the available 2008 projections for rolen (ie, ZIPS, CHONE, and bill james). i pro-rated them for 500 at-bats and lined them up w/ the foregoing stat lines, also pro-rated for 500 at-bats. numbers:

AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
2007 post cortisone 500 77 137 43   2 17 81 .274 .315 .462
2006 2d half 500 74 127 42   2 17 80 .253 .333 .447
bill james 500 81 141 35   2 19 89 .282 .367 .475
chone 500 69 137 31   2 17 75 .274 .353 .449
ZIPS 500 74 128 33   1 12 72 .255 .331 .397

aside from ZIPS, all these lines are singing in harmony --- average of about .275, slugging avg in the .450 range, and run/rbi totals approximating 80. on a just-eyeballing basis, those figures are in harmony w/ rolen's career averages, adjusted for age and health. so i'm thinking they're reasonable expectations. if rolen can perform at that level, it'd goose the st louis offense by maybe 15 runs over 2006 and more than justify the $12m he's getting paid. what it won't do is alter the foul dynamic betw rolen and la russa. but if scotty exhibits a little sock, the cards may get a decent trade offer on him --- and i'm advocating neither for nor against a trade; just scenariating.

items:

  • per the post-dispatch, mozeliak expects a lotta trade activity at the winter meetings.
  • Hardcore Legend is chasing old baseball footage at his new blog.
  • milb.com is counting down the top 50 prospects in the game; no stl players listed between #41 and #50.
  • the 1986 cardinals are headed due south; they've lost 7 of their last 10 and are now in 4th place. the mets just completed an early-season 4-game sweep of the birds at busch, exactly as it happened in real life; 3 of the games were decided by 1 run (1-0, 2-1, and 4-3). 21 years later, and that damn team still hasn't learned how to hit. poor old john tudor has a 1.93 era but only 1 win to show for it; greg mathews is winless despite a 2.37 era.

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Thanks for the above
But why did you not pro-rate Scotty's 2006 stats from before the All Star Break when considering what is possible for 2008?

I understand that pre-2006 stats are of no value because of the severity of the injury, but has the shoulder so worsened between mid 2006 and today that his stats from that time are not instructive of what  could be possible (even if only the upper boundary of his potential) in 2008?

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 9:26 AM EST reply actions  

just trying to be conservative / realistic
rolen's ops was .900+ in the first half of 2006; i don't consider that to be a realistic or useful parameter, given the fact that he's now had 2 surgeries in 3 years and only 1 healthy, productive season in the last 3 years. obviously it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me. i'm trying to gauge the fact part of the bell curve; based on the last 3 years, an ops in the .900 range seems like the narrow, upper end of the curve.

by lboros on Nov 27, 2007 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough
Though I would note that the first and more major of the two surgeries in three seasons occurred prior to 2006.

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

point well taken
perhaps another way to look at it is this: rolen's 1st half from 2006 was statistically anomalous, irrespective of health issues. he batted .331 in that half, or nearly 50 points above his career average, and was on pace for 60 doubles, which would be one of the top 10 single-season marks of all time. so that 1/2-season sample wouldn't be very useful in setting expectations, not matter what rolen's health outlook might be.

by lboros on Nov 27, 2007 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

This is something
that always intrigued me about Rolen's first half in 2006. While the BABIP numbers from that period are very high, I did wonder whether Rolen changed his approach due to the loss of power after the surgery, becoming more of a doubles/ line drive  hitter than in the past.

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

could be
might also have been a ballpark effect --- they moved into busch III in '06, and it's a difficult park for hrs.

what a mashup of factors for this guy --- passed the age-30 threshold, 2 surgeries, new ballpark, and he hates the manager. and there's also the PED issue, which conceivably could be a factor for any power hitter whose numbers dropped off since 2005 . . . . .  

by lboros on Nov 27, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Makes the whole projection thing
seem almost futile. But is sure is fun to think about.

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I am unsure of exactly how
Mozeliak is thinking that another team would be interested in Rolen plus salary with his injury history. In my opinion, Mozeliak is wasting his time with the Rolen situation and might be better off concentrating on arms and more arms in the trade market. We'll see in the next few weeks.
Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Nov 27, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

maybe
all he wants to do is show scotty and his agent that he tried and that he was willing to attempt to work something out. If nothing works out I doubt he'll be disappointed. I would imagine [the appearance of] accommodation has a lot of upside for mo in his negotiations with this agent's other clients as well as other agents.

by Birds on the Matt on Nov 27, 2007 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Good angle Spaz,
I have to agree that it is a smoke and mirrors article by Strauss.
Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Nov 27, 2007 10:05 AM EST reply actions  

It's a "smoke and mirrors" article...
because there's been no "action" to report about as yet! I'm sure Mo's talking to other clubs about possible trades... but he's not gonna tell anybody (including other GMs) where those talks stand today!

The Cardinals are looking for another pitcher (duh); that pitcher (whoever he is) is probably going to come to the club via trade. As to who's available, and whadda we gotta give up for him... Mo ain't sayin', and shouldn't!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 27, 2007 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Cortisone vs. surgery
Scotty had a frozen shoulder.  Cortisone would only help with the inflammation that accompanies the condition.  Adhesive capsulitis is a painful, acute arthritis that causes capsular shrinkage and irritation of the articular fluid.  Cortisone only helps relieve the inflammation - which is only about 50% of the problem.

Hopefully the successful surgery has freed up the scar tissue, allowing the capsule and articular fluid to heal.  This will allow him to fully strengthen the shoulder in the full range of motion.  This includes above shoulder level, across the body, and extending outward - positions he needs to be able to move into freely and without pain to turn on an inside pitch.  

Medically speaking, Scotty's "post-cortisone" numbers should be lower end of what we can expect from him.  I expect him to eclipse 40 doubles and 20 homers this year.

by silent_bob on Nov 27, 2007 10:26 AM EST reply actions  

Ok maybe 35 doubles
after looking at his career numbers.

by silent_bob on Nov 27, 2007 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's hoping Bill James is right!
Positive Pitcher Projections:
  1.  Reyes - 3.88 ERA
  2.  Looper - 3.98 ERA
  3.  Carpenter - 3.5 ERA and 25 starts?! Dream on...
  4.  Wainer - 4.06 ERA
  5.  Piniero - 4.53 ERA
  6.  Mulder - 4.34 ERA
Positive Hitter Projections:
  1.  Rolen - 842 OPS
  2.  Edmonds - 867 OPS
  3.  Pujols - 1,059 OPS
  4.  C. Duncan - 861 OPS
  5.  Rasmus - 837 OPS, 490 ABs?
  6.  Ankiel - 800 OPS
Good lord - I'll take it all right now?  Wainright as our "4th" best starter with a 4.06 earny and no one over Piniero's 4.5?  Plus all of this says that the only person you could "trade" right now and get value for would be either (A) Rasmus (B) Ankiel (C) Pujols - please no.  All of the other guys have very rosy projections that you wouldn't get value on until they were achieved - read: Reyes, Anthony; Duncan, Chris; Edmonds, Jim; Rolen, Scott...  

Anywho, I picked up James's book the other day and as always it is worth the 20 bucks.  Purchase yours at Amazon.com or baseballinfosolutions.com.  Highly reccomended!  The 2008 Bill James Handbook!

by Lawless on Nov 27, 2007 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

Sorry about the tangent!
I meant to thank you for the analysis on Rolen and dovetail a bit into what Bill thought about other Cardinals.  To me, the bottom line is that unless someone is willing to trade for Rolen assuming he is going to produce 825+ OPS (i.e. more than a salary dump) - I will stick with the matra of lets hang on to him.

Additional good news, when the Yankees were inquiring on Rolen, Mo asked for one of Joba, Phil, or Ian.  Not that he had any chance at getting these guys, but it is interesting that he started off in space.  Either he is playing his cards close like Jock used to or he is a cadet orbitting in space?!

by Lawless on Nov 27, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

That looks crazy
I don't have the numbers, but can you get a pythagorean record from those projections?  If all those projections come true, we're going to win 95 games, without adding anybody.  Is he pessimistic about anybody?

by CardFaninVA on Nov 27, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep
Though I have to say I am much more bullish about Reyes than most --- then again, I am still waiting for Corey Patterson and Hank Blalock to come around, so lets just say I have an issue there.

As for true pessimism - one could infer that Wainers projection is slightly pessimistic.  He doesn't expect Kennedy/Ryan/Molina/Eckstein to improve with Molina really taking a hit, but when you go from 720 OPS to 680, the marginal impact is not that much....

As for the Pythagorean, unfortunately I am the wrong man for the job.  I know the A squared, B squared, C squared stuff, but past that... whewww..  not sure

by Lawless on Nov 27, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Does he give a specific reason
for assigning that ERA to Reyes?  I'd assume everyone would project that Reyes will suck in '08.

by sdrone on Nov 27, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

if reyes has a lower ERA than wainwright
i will do a handstand. i just don't see that happening. i could have before last season, but not now. i think the reason is his relatively low WHIP, but it doesn't take into account the fact that he seemed to pitch differently (worse) with runners on than without. if he could spread the same number of baserunners over 6 or 7 innings like AW rather than  retiring 8 straight batters and then allowing four to score in one inning than that would make a huge difference in ERA even though it wouldn't change the WHIP much.

by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Understand, but don't agree
For three of the last four years, Wainer was "forecasted" to be a 3 or 4 starter with Reyes as number 2.

Now, from the believe what you see/read department, obviously Wainer had a far better year and has a better shot with the Cards, but when you looked at his stuff the first half of last year, it wasn't much to write home about...  Things changed for the better in the second half and you have to believe that Wainer has a #2 ceiling these days,,,

but that doesn't mean Reyes doesn't have a shot at the "projected" ERA

by Lawless on Nov 27, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

His projections
are based off Reyes' peripherals and minor league stats I'm sure. Also, his system is notoriously bad. If I remember correctly, ZIPS thinks he'll post something like a 4.50 ERA. I could see that, but I don't put a lot of stock in the runners on split like some do.

by plh903 on Nov 27, 2007 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

James
Notoriously bad is a bit off imho.  Obviously James doesn't have a perfect crystal ball, so it is just a data point like Chone and ZIPS, but it is interesting to look at his projections.  I'll post a diary on notable 06 projections compared to results for fun..

by Lawless on Nov 27, 2007 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Haren
Strauss' article talks about trading young pitchers (Reyes, Thompson, etc...) for an arbitration eligible pitcher.  Sounds like Dan Haren is exactly the type of pitcher Mo is looking for.  

With Oakland considering trading him, i wonder what it would take to get him back.  Reyes may actually be a good fit with their big ballpark.  But we'd probably have to include a couple of our Top 5-7 prospects not including Colby.  I'd consider Reyes, Garcia and Ottavino for 3 years of Haren at reasonable prices.   Not sure if Oakland would.

by tjgila on Nov 27, 2007 10:33 AM EST reply actions  

Without reading the article
it sounds like Dontrelle Willis is on the radar.  A buy low type guy who is still relatively cheap.  Cardinals have wanted him for awhile.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

hmmmm
Isn't that like buying Mark Mulder all over again?

I really don't need another lefty who's looked below average a lot the past two years and has a funky delivery that could lead to injury problems.

No thank you

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 27, 2007 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I would hope they wouldn't give up
Dan Haren again.

Mulder wasn't a buy low guy, as far as I remember.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

mulder was buy high
haren would also be a buy-high. after last year, willis would be a buy low ... the question being when/if he will go high again.  

by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Mulder was damaged goods...
When Walt traded for him. It would be like a team trading a bunch of good prospects for Rolen this year,knowing he had suffered an injury.

by DiscoJer on Nov 27, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Willia = Steve Avery
I could swear I remember reading something comparing Willis with Steve Avery.

Let's look (dropping fractions of an IP):

Age Avery IP/ERA  Willis IP/ERA
21    210/3.38          160/3.30
22    233/3.20          197/4.02
23    223/2.94          236/2.63
24    151/4.04          223/3.87
25    173/4.67          205/5.17
26    131/4.47

After age 26, Avery never had an ERA below 5 again. I think the basic theory was he pitched too many innings at a young age. From Age 21 to age 25 Avery had around 990 IP, Willis 1021. The jumos in ERA from age 23-25 seem pretty similar.

Dontrelle's declining peripherals are a big worry--his K/W rate is tanking (from 3.01 in 2005 to 1.68 in 2007), and his homerun rate skyrocketting: (from .42/9IP in 2005 to 1.27.9IP in 2007). I'd be reluctant to give up much for him.

by tarakas on Nov 27, 2007 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry for Typos
Here is a corrected version:

Willis = Steve Avery?

I could swear I remember reading something comparing Willis with Steve Avery.

Let's look (dropping fractions of an IP):

Age Avery IP/ERA  Willis IP/ERA
21    210/3.38          160/3.30
22    233/3.20          197/4.02
23    223/2.94          236/2.63
24    151/4.04          223/3.87
25    173/4.67          205/5.17
26    131/4.47

After age 26, Avery never had an ERA below 5 again. I think the basic theory was he pitched too many innings at a young age. From Age 21 to age 25 Avery had around 990 IP, Willis 1021. The jumps in ERA from age 23-25 seem pretty similar.

Dontrelle's declining peripherals are a big worry--his K/W rate is tanking (from 3.01 in 2005 to 1.68 in 2007), and his homerun rate skyrocketting: (from .42/9IP in 2005 to 1.27.9IP in 2007). I'd be reluctant to give up much for him.

by tarakas on Nov 27, 2007 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Fool me once shame on you
Fool me twice shame one me.

Lets not head down this road again.

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

trading for haren
would be like selling a stock at $10/share and buying it back at $100/share -- like buying cisco in 1999. (i speak from experience...sigh).

by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Surgery
I had kind of wondered exactly what goes on in the surgery that Rolen got.  I had heard that for scar tissue issues they pretty much knock you out and stretch the holy hell out of you, but I'm no medical expert and my source is, well, sort of dumb.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 27, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

Closed manipulation
is what you're referring to.  And you're right.  Although think of what a chiropractor would do - high speed manipulation.

Rolen had arthroscopic debridement in addition to the manip.

by silent_bob on Nov 27, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks
I think that medical stuff is interesting...I just need a huge glossary of terms sitting right next to me whenever I read about it!  That's what you get when you're a history major in college!

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 27, 2007 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the link
larry!
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions  

I guess I could also take this chance to ask
the rest of the Cardinals fans here:

If you have any pre-1976 Cardinals games, whether it be on film, tape or dvd...please speak up.  Besides the entire 1968 World Series that floats around, MLB is rumored to have purchased some of the 1967 Series.

Other than that, full game broadcasts for the Cards don't exist prior to '76.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I like the blog, Hardcore
It's a really interesting niche to me, although I'm afraid I don't have any tapes to contribute. Having been born in the 80's, its a strange concept to think that there is a big chunk of sports that WASN'T broadcast regularly. I've never lived in a world without 24-hour sports coverage. I've seen old world war II footage and old newsreels of historical events, but there aren't a lot of sports-related broadcasts. (At least not in their entirety.)

One quick note and then I'll quit hijacking this thread: The font seems a little small on your site. Nothing Firefox can't fix, but I thought I'd mention it.

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 27, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I just opened it up in Firefox
and the problem comes from that.  Firefox doesn't read the Lucida Grande font and appears to simply make it Times New Roman.

Thanks for looking.  The baseball film collector's group is a very secretive group of people, in general.  They don't want people to know what they have or how much of it they have for fear MLB will come in and take it away.  They can't sell their stuff unless they have an 'in' with MLB that will look the other way.

It's really a shame.  There is much more out there than any of us really know that is kept in secret.  The Larsen Perfect game was kept hidden for over 2 decades.  There are rumors that the Maris 61* game is in someone's collection.

I'm just trying to take what little hints, what little footage leaks out and collect it all in one place.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I found
your reconstruction of that Pirates/Cubs game from a couple stills a real delight.  There's some deep connection between the baseball mind and the researching-minutiae-just-because mind.  Games of inches and all that...

by jfs on Nov 27, 2007 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Effin, when I started
following baseball seriously in the 1970s, it was HARD to be a sports fan.  If you were coming home late from an evening out and needed a score, you had to either call a friend, or wait around until your favorite radio station read off the sports scores once an hour.  I remember when the P-D instituted a hotline you could call to get sports news, how excited I was that I'd be able to get a score "on demand." But of course there was no hope of a box score or anything beyond Cardinals 4, Mets 3.  On KMOX you might get 1 or 2 highlights if something big happened.  And I can't imagine how hard it would have been to live in city A while trying to follow your team in city B. Your local TV station might tell you what your team did that night ... if they felt like it ... or not.  Really, there was damned little information available.  The Sporting News was invaluable to me because I could actually get decent stats and other info about your team, even though the stuff was a week out of date when you got it.  I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if I had been born 30 years earlier.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 27, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't classify it as "hard"
Back then, you didn't have expectations of getting something fast.   It was perfectly normal to just peruse box scores in the paper the next morning.

by sdrone on Nov 27, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right
about the expectations being different.  Now we live in a "microwave world" where we expect (and demand) everything instantly.  But I can attest to how hard it used to be to follow your team when you lived out of market.  Before I got the internet and could follow the Cards on-line, my local news only mentioned the Cardinals if they happened to be playing the Cubs. I was starving for any info about the Birds on Bat.  Happily, those days are over now that the World Wide Web gives me immediate access to my beloved team.    

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 27, 2007 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, good point
I lived in Southern IL and the local paper has zero coverage, but my parents always had a subscription to the Globe Democrat.

by sdrone on Nov 27, 2007 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, yes and no.
I agree that I was operating on a whole different set of assumptions in 1975, but I do remember being frustrated when I had trouble getting information.  Don't forget, we did have Star Trek back then, and so the idea of on-demand info had subtly infiltrated our brains.  Maybe we didn't believe it would happen by the 1990s, but the concept DID occur to us (or me, at least).

But it was indeed hard, in the sense that it required a lot of effort to get certain information. It was hard to get cash too, in the days before ATMs ... a real effort was required.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 27, 2007 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

oh where art thou..
post-tarp vince coleman?  surely we can hlelp out some fabulous pitching.

i am not unbiased at all regarding rolen.  i keep hoping he finds his health, retuns close to pre-current-shoulder issue which are 2004 #s and finds that he doesn't hate it in STL and can at least learn to tolerate TLR.  ahhh, the power of dreaming :)

by HoosierCardFan on Nov 27, 2007 10:41 AM EST reply actions  

rolen
If the cards are smart they will try to keep him and let him and tony grow up if he hits 270-350-15hrs and 30 doubles hes still one of the best 3rd baseman in the game.Also if he does that hes tradeable again.. On the pitching front a trade of thompson reyes anderson and schumacker could bring a decent starter Blanton or Willis come to mind.But I could see a signing of a guy like Lieber for one year and a trade for a shortstop..    

by cm1000 on Nov 27, 2007 10:43 AM EST reply actions  

I find it interesting that Rolen's OBP
went UP when he was in WORSE health.  He's just being more careful about his swings?

by sdrone on Nov 27, 2007 10:52 AM EST reply actions  

Top prospects
No Cards prospects in #31-40 either.

Where does everyone think Colby will end up on this list?

by silent_bob on Nov 27, 2007 10:58 AM EST reply actions  

Probably 2nd
I'd imagine a pitcher will sneak in ahead of him.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Top 5
I still think that overall he isnt looked at as being the top talent in the Minors and I think Bruce will out rank him for sure and Joba (i think he is still considered a prospect). But what the hell do I know...
"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Nov 27, 2007 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

mlb.com...
color me skeptical.

i just imagine that with their marketing bias, colby will fall to around 8, with someone embarrassing in front of him like ellsbury.

by johnstonburg on Nov 27, 2007 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

3 Missouri boys in a row...
on the Top Prospect list...#37 Detwiler, #36 Elbert, and #35 Scherzer...now if they can just keep movin' up that list!

Anyone else think Clement was a little low at #46? with that power I would think he would be at least top 25 even though he could turn out to be another Rob Deer/Russell Branyan...

"Back in the day when I played, a pitcher had 3 pitches: a fastball, a curveball, a slider, a changeup and a good sinker pitch." - Mike Shannon

by nomar34 on Nov 27, 2007 11:17 AM EST reply actions  

I saw Detwiler pitch a couple of time
when he was with Missouri State. He's got a lot of talent. I really hope he does well.
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 27, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

gomez was down on him
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/breaking-down-the-drafts-1st-round-picks-1-10/

i really feel like he deserved that job. his analysis of mulder was dead on.

by johnstonburg on Nov 27, 2007 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't pretend to be a mechanics expert
I just watched him pitch a couple of times, and he's fantastic.

First round draft pick and a top 50 prospect in America? He may not be the next Chris Carpenter, but he's a fine pitcher. And I wouldn't describe that article as "down on him." It was fair and balanced, but also praised his pitching. Just had questions about his mechanics.

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 28, 2007 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

sooo....
anyone gonna talk about johan to the yanks? if the yanks have to give back hughes & joba or hughes/joba + kennedy/cano, i MIGHT not stop watching baseball.
does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Nov 27, 2007 11:42 AM EST reply actions  

When considering trading with the
Yanks, Red Soxs, Angles, and Dodgers, the Yanks have one of the worst collections of talent the Twins could get back.

If I were the Twins, I would focus on the Dodgers. With a farm system in MN that can't produce offensive talent but has bushels of good young pitchers (Bonser, Graza, Baker, Liriano just to name a few) the Dodgers are the only team of the four above with the depth of offensive talent.

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Angels and Miggy
It seems the Angels are focused on Miguel Cabrera rather than Johan.   Seems Kinsler would be part of the package.  If that' true, can we have Uggla?

by RedbirdRay on Nov 27, 2007 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

He is....
but wouldn't Uggla be available anyway as the word here is that Kendrick would have to be included in the deal no matter what?

by Timbo02 on Nov 27, 2007 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Might
Uggla move to 3B in such a scenario?  Or Kendrick?  I don't know that there would be a 2B surplus necessarily.

by moboiler on Nov 27, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

if the twins could get some offense
and get liriano back, it might be worth keeping santana (at least til the trade deadline). that would be a deadly 1-2 punch in the playoffs ... although we saw what cleveland's seemingly deadly 1-2 did for them this year. still, santana/liriano can make up for a lot of other shortcomings.

by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

But for the Twins
the key is adding offense and some good D up the middle because the pitching was decent last year.

This is why I don't understand how a Melky Cabrera centered package makes sense for the Twins.

by JMedwick on Nov 27, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I never thought Cleveland's
1-2 was "deadly." Good, yes, but not awesome.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 27, 2007 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Well
IF Liriano returns to form, they probably have the 2 best pitchers in the game period.  Granted that's as big an if as Carpenter returning to Cy form, but that upside is so huge I'd think they'd wait to see before dealing Santana.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 28, 2007 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

mlb trade rumors
said for what they are worth that angels and marlins have hita snag on players..Mo over then rolen now

by cm1000 on Nov 27, 2007 12:45 PM EST reply actions  

the only thing
that offering them Rolen will do is improve the Angels bargaining position for Cabrera.  They won't trade for Rolen until Cabrera is moved elsewhere.
It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 27, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

good point
and i really doubt that Rolen gets moved...unless SF decides they need another aging vet..but they have a solid feliz at 3rd(glove not as good as rolen though)

IMO best hope at trade of rolen is he comes abck healthy and they trade him at his peak b4 he gets hurt again.

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 27, 2007 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

isn't feliz a free agent?
also, he is solid enough, but fans hate him there and i think his OPB is dreadfully low (poor plate discipline).

by willievinceterry on Nov 27, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Josh Kinney
While we're on the general topic of players recovering from surgery, has anyone heard anything recently regarding Kinney?  Is he supposed to be back for spring training 100% healthy?  Any setbacks in his rehab?

by Handsome B Wonderful on Nov 27, 2007 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

Broke his arm
a few months back.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

wow
don't remember ever reading that.  when and how and will he be back at all?

by moboiler on Nov 27, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Since the Post Dispatch doesn't believe
in having their archive availible to people:


Kinney breaks bone in elbow
By Derrick Goold
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/22/2007

As he recovers from Tommy John surgery, reliever Josh Kinney broke a bone in his right elbow last week while playing catch and had surgery Friday to repair the fracture.

Kinney arrived Tuesday at Busch Stadium wearing a camouflaged cast over his entire right arm.

He said he had a screw inserted in the broken bone Friday, and he expects to be out six to eight weeks, wearing a cast for the next three weeks.

Kinney, who had the ligament surgery in spring training, said the latest injury wouldn't delay his return.

"This will give my ligament that much more time to heal," he said. "Everything else is good. That's the good news. I just cracked a bone."

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 27, 2007 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

rolen
thanks again, larry.

i feel pretty optimistic about rolen. i think 2006 shows that his shoulder is at least fundamentally ok. his ld rate was 19% last year, so, if some power returns, he should be an above average 3b. i feel like 280/350/480 is reasonable, but i admit that makes me much more optimistic than most people.

by johnstonburg on Nov 27, 2007 8:59 PM EST reply actions  

Not worth 12 million. Trade Rolen for anything.
Your #s project Rolen at something like an obp of 324 and slg of 454 (.778 ops).  Rolen finished roughly 39th in OPS last year (.729 ops) among guys that can play 3rd.  Your numbers get him up to 29th.  Mike Lamb (.820) is the available free agent improvement.  He made 2.7m last year.  Corey Koskie, who missed all of 2007 w/ concussion issues, might be a cheap fit (.833 in '06).  Some other names:  
Wilson Betemit (.788)
Oakland got 41 games and .792 ops out of Jack Hannahan
Philly got 68 games and .780 ops out of Greg Dobbs
Our Cards used Brendan Ryan (.752), Russell Branyan (.752), and Scott Spiezio (.739)
Morgan Ensberg was DFAd and traded for a ham sandwich last year.

I could probably go on, but you can creatively save 7-10 million for the next 3 years and not give up a lot dumping Rolen for a box of baseballs.  
With the Yanks no longer in need, the top options, that conveniently are loaded w/ prospects, are the LA teams.  The "loser" of the Cabrera sweepstakes can merely give up one prospect for Scott Rolen rather than 3 or 4 for Miggy.  Brandon Wood, Nick Adenhart, Howie Kendrick, Erick Aybar, Kendry Morales, Ervin Santana, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Kemp, James Loney (flip for someone else), Chad Billingsley, Andy LaRoche, and Andre Ethier would all be great.

Stop saying what-if for 2008 and do what is right for 2009 and beyond.  Trade Rolen for anything.

by rrvwmr on Nov 27, 2007 10:41 PM EST reply actions  

this makes no sense
in one breath, you say rolen's no better than the likes of greg dobbs --- vastly overpaid. in the next breath, you suggest he's good enough to fetch matt kemp or nick adenhart in a trade.

either he's a terrible value (ergo not worth anything in trade), or he's a good value (hence worth a decent prospect). i think it's the latter --- i think he'll prove himself to be worth the $$$. but you can't have it both ways.

by lboros on Nov 27, 2007 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

doesn't make cents, makes dollars.
Let me clarify.  Nonamers like Dobbs were included to make a point.  Rolen and his $36 mil contract are worth zero given market alternatives and his projection.  However, dumping him for nothing would be the work of a crap GM.  There is still a perception that Rolen is an asset and we should capitalize on this and deal him for a prospect.  Any real prospect they get would be a huge win.  I don't think Kemp and Adenhart are realities, but why not think big...

by rrvwmr on Nov 28, 2007 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

he's not worth $12m if he continues to slug .400
but if he slugs .450, he's worth it because of his glove. he's one of the best defenders in the game, worth a game and a half with his glove year after year; if you combine that with above-avg hitting (ie, an .800 ops or higher), he's worth at least 4 wins a year. teams pay $15m/yr for that on the open market.

they'll never get anything for him until he shows he can hit. when's the last time a team traded a good prospect for an expensive, declining, oft-injured, over-30 player? that doesn't happen anymore; teams are smarter than that. but if rolen shows that he can still hit, then you might find a team willing to offer a good prospect --- and if that opportunity arises, i'd be all in favor.

but if he can still hit, then he's worth $12m a year. . . . . it'd be nice if they could turn a valueless veteran into a valuable prospect, but it's not that easy anymore. teams have wised up.

by lboros on Nov 28, 2007 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

upside and defense
I ignored Rolen's upside and defense in my post, but I'd contend those are the two pieces that another team might overvalue.  I believe both are declining assets.  I haven't seen how the defensive metrics flushed out last year, and I'm not sure how much his shoulder was affecting him, but he didn't look the same to me.  If we were able to send $2m/yr w/ Rolen for a good prospect, it would still be a win.

by rrvwmr on Nov 28, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

One of the things that's interesting about
this discussion is that it's hard to project exactly what Rolen's worth.  When I was working on my Sunday post a week and a half ago (re: ARod and Cabrera), I tried to discern Rolen's value a year ago.  BP had him at close to his salary -- between $10.5 and 12 M I think.  THT had him at something like $3.5 M.  There is a big difference in what BP and THT characterize as "replacement level" for their WARP and WSAB.

It seems that BP's WARP places a higher value on defense than THT's WSAB does as I've noticed that BP has Molina's value being much higher than THT does.  Is he worth the $12M, I don't know and the experts don't agree either.  If you believe BP, he almost was last year based, almost exclusively, on his defense.  If you believe THT, which also has him as a very good defensive player but places less of a value on being good defensively, he's going to have to get much better offensively to be worth the $12 M.

by chuckb on Nov 28, 2007 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

but houstoncard, the THT calculates NET value
ie, they calculate a player's marginal win value minus his marginal contract value. so they're saying the cards turned a $3m "profit" on rolen's contract in 2006.

as a test, i ran the numbers for albert pujols in 2007. he was worth 19 WSAB on a salary of $15m. the THT calculator spits out a net worth of $7.5m --- but it's not saying that albert should have been paid $7.5m in 2007, it's saying the cards netted $7.5m worth of value on his contract; he delivered $22.5m worth of performance.

for rolen to be worth $12m (ie, a net value of 0), he'd need to deliver about 8 WSABs --- about 3 wins above replacement.

by lboros on Nov 28, 2007 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Question about JED
Saw that he has "no trade protection".  Looked that up.  Anybody know the list of teams he can be traded to?
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Nov 27, 2007 11:32 PM EST reply actions  

jed no-trade
it is complete, because it is from him being a 10-5 guy

the cards with this protection are jed, izzy, and rolen

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 28, 2007 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

if the angels dont get miggy
we could get santana for rolen might have to out a little cash too

by cm1000 on Nov 28, 2007 9:48 AM EST reply actions  

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