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ZIPS and the 2008 rotation

ever wonder how bob gibson's career would have looked if he'd spent all those years in a radical pitcher's park like petco? Beyond the Boxscore did; here are the results.

what-if pitching scenarios are the theme of the day around here. if you don't like lotsa numbers crunched, lotsa tables, and/or lotsa ZIPS projections, go away and come back some other time. as for the rest of you, get out the ol' pencil and cue up the back of an envelope; time to do some figurin'.

my goal here today is to gauge the cardinal rotation in its current state. how does it compare to last year's? can we expect it to be better or worse? by how much? and under what circumstances? since dan szymbroski has generously provided us, at this early date, with the cardinals' ZIPS projections, that's the dataset i'm gonna start with. i urge you not to take these figures as gospel truth; they're not presented in that spirit. the exercise is so speculative and omits so many variables that we can't trust it that far. however, even allowing for a wide margin of error, this kind of guesswork is not entirely without value; while any given scenario is unlikely to be very accurate, by examining a range of scenarios we can derive a useful set of parameters and probabilites.

so let's get started. here's how the cardinal rotation performed last year:

2007 ROTATION

 GS IP  H  BB SO  HR ERA WHIP
wainwright  32 202 212  70 136  13 3.70 1.396
looper  31 175 183  51  87  22 4.94 1.337
pineiro  11  64  69  12  40  11 3.96 1.266
wells  26 139 169  71  99  18 6.28 1.727
reyes  20 104 103  38  72  15 5.71 1.356
others  42 205 251  79  98  36 5.62 1.610
TOTAL 162 889 987 321 532 115 5.04 1.471

the "others" include carpenter, mulder, maroth, wellemeyer, thompson, keisler, and troy percival (last day of the season, remember?). these results redefined awful; the starters in 2007 were 0.25 earned runs per game worse than the shockingly bad 2006 rotation, which itself had been thought to represent a nadir. we should remember that as we move through this exercise; although it might seem there's nowhere to go but up, things can always get worse. . . . . anyway, let's look now at the ZIPS projections and compare them to last year's rotation:

PROJECTED 2008 ROTATION

 GS IP  H  BB SO  HR ERA WHIP
wainwright  31 194 202  57 131  20 4.13 1.335
looper  28 160 173  54  83  19 4.84 1.419
pineiro  27 150 171  53  80  20 5.28 1.493
mulder  24 144 162  59  79  18 5.06 1.535
reyes  26 149 153  45 106  23 4.65 1.328
carpenter    8  48  48  16  36    6 4.10 1.333
others  18  95 118  36  44  16 5.68 1.621
2008 PROJ 162 940 1027 320 559 124 4.82 1.433
2007 TOTAL 162 889 987 321 532 115 5.04 1.471

ZIPS projects the 5 returning starters to make 136 starts, leaving 27 for other pitchers. well actually this isn't quite true; pineiro is only projected to 22 starts, with 14 relief appearances. but since we know that's not pineiro's intended use pattern, it's illogical to accept that projection. so i'm going to assign him 27 starts and maintain the rest of the pitching line (you're getting an idea of how scientific this is . . . . ), which leaves him with a projected average of about 5.2 innings per start --- exactly what he averaged last year. we also know that carpenter will return at some point, i plugged him in for 8 starts, ignoring his ZIPS projection (which is ignorant of his health status) and applying wainwright's rate stats to him instead. for the "others" category, i simply assumed the same rate stats as last season and pro-rated them for the 18 unclaimed starts. based on these assumptions, the rotation ought to improve by 0.22 points through sheer inertia; that's better than a 20-run improvement, or 2 wins, without lifting a finger --- sheer regression to the mean.

now let's make a couple more assumptions. despite being no great fan of pineiro's, i think ZIPS is far too pessimistic about him; in this league and this ballpark, he ought to do better than a 5.28 era. so i'm going to assume that he matches his FIP (st louis only) from last year, 4.80. if we make this change, our projected improvement stands at nearly 30 runs, or 3 wins --- without adding any new personnel. this is hardly a radical assumption; regression to the mean is a very well-documented, and very powerful, tendency. and realize, a 30-run improvement would still leave the cardinals with a rotation well below the league average. the suggestion is not that the rotation will become good if we trot the same old stiffs back out there; it'll just be less god-awful.

ok, now let's start changing personnel. suppose the cardinals sign curt schilling; he bumps reyes (the low man on the totem pole) from the rotation. schilling's ZIPS projection isn't available, but his era's the last two years have been 3.97 and 3.87; if he stays in that range, this change improves the rotation's era to 4.60, and the bottom line improves by another 15 runs. the rotation is 4.5 wins better than it was last season.

suppose the new pitcher is aj burnett rather than schilling (and never mind how we get burnett; just go with it). ZIPS projects aj to a 3.79 era next season --- but that's in a hitter's park in a dh league. put him in busch vs nl opposition, and that projection looks more like 3.35. but let's be conservative and say 3.50 ---- he bumps reyes, and here's how the rotation looks:

 GS IP  H  BB SO  HR ERA WHIP
wainwright  31 194 202  57 131  20 4.13 1.335
looper  28 160 173  54  83  19 4.84 1.419
pineiro  27 150 171  53  80  20 5.28 1.493
mulder  24 144 162  59  79  18 5.06 1.535
burnett  26 178 164  61 158  20 3.50 1.264
carpenter    8  48  48  16  36    6 4.10 1.333
others  18  95 118  36  44  16 5.60 1.621
2008 PROJ 162 974 1045 338 614 122 4.52 1.418
2007 TOTAL 162 889 987 321 532 115 5.04 1.471

now we're at about a 55-run improvement and close to a league-average rotation (the median nl rotation last year had a 4.55 era). intuitively, that makes sense to me: i'd expect a rotation of burnett / wainwright / looper / pineiro / mulder to be no worse than league average. but is a 55-run improvement in one year realistic? let's add a little context: between 2003 (when the cards' starters ranked 10th in the league) and 2004 (when they moved up to 4th), the rotation improved by roughly 45 runs. between 1999 (9th in the nl) and 2000 (3d), the rotation improved by about 60 runs. the cubs' rotation improved by about 90 runs between 2006 and 2007. this is not at all far-fetched.

the question is, where does that get us? don't forget, the cards' run differential (minus 104 runs) last year was a lot worse than their actual record; so even if we assume a 55-run improvement in the rotation, that leaves the team at minus 49 runs --- they would have to improve by 49 runs elsewhere (offense, defense, bullpen) just to break even. in other words, a 55-run improvement by the rotation --- whopping though it would be --- won't be nearly enough to make the cardinals into contenders. we're going to need every single one of these guys to beat his projection --- a 4.50 era from mulder, a 4.25 from pineiro, 4.60 from looper, 3.80 from wainwright, 3.30 from carp --- to get anywhere close to contention. if i throw the just-cited figures into the spreadsheet, the rotation era comes down to 4.28, a 75-run improvement over last year. that leaves the team within 30 runs of .500; if we assume further rosy scenarios (bounceback years from edmonds rolen and kennedy), then the cards have a winning club.

we can't say all of these things won't happen; we can certainly say a whole lot of things have to break the cards' way if they're going to contend in 2008.

0 recs  |  Comment 102 comments

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Wow
Look at Gibson's innings pitched/year column on that BTBS link.

by sdrone on Nov 2, 2007 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Throwin this one out there...and kinda random
But I think it's entirely posssible that Carlos Zambrano explodes or at the very least performs significantly worse than the past few years.  K/BB rate trending down into the "not too good" range, home run rate creeping up into averageish.  5 straight 210+ innings with 3500+ pitches good for a rate of ~108 per start the last 4.  There was the whole "where did his velocity go" thing before he went on his 'Contract 2 Months' and then returning to mediocrity.  Just sayin.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 2, 2007 10:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I think he's damaged--and he knows it, which is why he did the contract in-season before what would likely be the biggest payday of his life.  He's always had a bit of a short arm action, but it looked more pronounced to me this fall.  His peak velocity was not down much, but it was very erratic.      
youneverknow

by meat on Nov 2, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i am an advocate of signing schilling
he may cost $13 mil or more, and his velocity isn't what it's used to be but all he's looking for is a 1 year deal. he's a type a, but because the cards are in the bottom 15 they don't lose a draft pick signing him and they could gain one if he decides to play elsewhere the following year.

personally, i don't like him as a person, but i think he'd be a good fit for 2008

by erik on Nov 2, 2007 10:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

erik, are you sure they don't lose a pick?
i thought teams in the bottom 15 lose their second-round pick if they sign a type A. the cards got the brewers' 2d-round pick last year, which i assumed happened because milwaukee signed suppan.

by lboros on Nov 2, 2007 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Cards would loose a pick
but I believe you are right that it would be second rounder lost. With all of the Supplemental picks between the 1st and 2nd rounds (and the Cards ability to have at the most 2 picks in this round), loosing a 2nd rounder for signing Shilling is a far better trade off then loosing the opportunity to add a sandwich pick by signing Eckstien. .  

by JMedwick on Nov 2, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i guess it depends on the crop
that 2d-rounder is still a top-100 pick; if it's a deep crop this year, that could be a good player. since i'm very skeptical of this team's chances to contend in 2008, i'm wary of 1-year strategies if they cost us a shot at some future returns.

by lboros on Nov 2, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, might wanna keep the picks......
I think one of the keys to the "we want to go younger" plan would be to lose as few picks as possible due to free agent signings.  That has to be coupled with good picks, of course.

I wonder if teams like Cleveland changed their strategy - i.e. whether or not they just stopped signing free agents when they decided to to young.  Arizona, too, since they started out as a "let's win by signing people" team and are now a "play 'em young" team.

by sdrone on Nov 2, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

see my post below
a 1 year, $13 M signing of Schilling costs the team roughly $16 M, courtesy of Baseball Prospectus.

by chuckb on Nov 2, 2007 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

100% agree
"i'm wary of 1-year strategies if they cost us a shot at some future returns"

me too.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 2, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right...
but if we let Schill go after 2008, we'd get a pick back from whatever team signs him them.  So, we'd be giving up "future returns" from the 2008 draft, but getting some back for the 2009 draft.

Of course, he could flat out retire after 2008 and we get nothing.  Or he could stink or be injured in 2008 and not even be a type A or B when the season ends. Then we have lost the pick entirely.  There are no guarantees.  Then again, there are no guarnatees the player chosen with the pick they keep by not signing him amounts to anything.  

by flynn on Nov 2, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

top 15
I'm pretty sure Erik meant that we don't lose our pick because it is in the TOP 15.  But, we may lose our second round pick, I'm not sure how the rest of it goes.

by jroman on Nov 2, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

we would lose our 2nd round pick
BP values 2nd round picks at about $3 million .

So the net cost of signing Schilling to a 1 year, $13 million deal is $16 million. Is he worth that? Not sure, but he might be.

by chuckb on Nov 2, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But looking at lb's analysis,
Its clear Shilling, even as the stud he is, can't get us even close to over the top.  Why waste the money then?
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 2, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's true
the money is better spent if it makes us an 85-90 win team than if it makes us an 80-85 win team. His value to other teams may be higher than his value to the Cards for exactly that reason. The Cards would still have to add a couple missing pieces in order to justify the signing -- the $16 million is just a generic value, not applied to particular teams.

by chuckb on Nov 2, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh snap
u are right, 2nd rounder. if eck doesn't resign, nor percival they get 2 sandwich picks to compensate. and like i said, if schilling decides to play another year and another team resigns him, well, more compensation in the next draft.

by erik on Nov 2, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

points well taken
since they'll have at least 1 (hopefully 2) sandwich picks already in hand, it might be a defensible tradeoff to swap a lower, 2d-round pick for schill.

but i'd just as soon stockpile high draft picks and acquire a lesser pitcher. w/ their own 1st-rounder, the two sandwich picks, and the natural 2d rounder, they could have 4 of the top 75 picks this year --- which is what they had in the bumper crop of 2005. i think having all those high draft picks encouraged them to take a few more chances at the top of the draft that year --- they made some daring calls (rasmus, herron, mccormick) because they could spread the risk around among numerous picks. they weren't betting all on 1 guy panning out; as long as 1 of the 4 became a high-impact guy, they'd come out ahead.

by lboros on Nov 2, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

glavine is type b
we don't lose anything is we signed him do we? he's also only looking for a year, from what i've read. what would be your thoughts on him? i just don't wanna see the cards commit multiple yrs on some middling talent.

by erik on Nov 2, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nevermind
glavine is type a. forget it.

by erik on Nov 2, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2 round picks
last three drafts 2005 nick webber...middle reliever at best 2006 brad furnish, possible 4th starter, not a bad return. 2007 jess todd, future set up or possible mid rotation starter. yeah, maybe i'd rather have the pick. i ranked furnish and todd in my 25 best.

by erik on Nov 3, 2007 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what about percival?
what happens if Percival signs with someone else mid-season again?  is he even a Class B?

by birdsonthebat on Nov 2, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We only lose a pick if Boston offers arbitration,
right?

If he's only looking for a one year deal, and he's happy with going back to the beaneaters, then why wouldn't he accept arbitration?  He'd probably make more off of the arbiters than he would on the open market, anyway.

by Valatan on Nov 2, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point being that
I'd betchya that the only way that Schilling hits the open market is if Boston doesn't offer him arbitration.

by Valatan on Nov 2, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree
and i love schilling
if it were football and he were outspoken people would love him like ray lewis nd chad johnson

i could give a crap if he were a scientologist who voted green party

hes a winner and a post season hero

Come on 2009!

by benstl on Nov 2, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love him like Ray Lewis =
St. Louis will want to put him in jail?

by sdrone on Nov 2, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

glad
you got the joke
Come on 2009!

by benstl on Nov 2, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Draft Pick
If the Red Sox offered Schilling arbitration (and they'd need to in order to get the picks), he'd accept. His first choice is a one-year contract with Boston.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops
Didn't see Val made the same observation a few posts up.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still say pass
adding a one yr guy at what he will cost doesnt sem to upgarde much...especially since the last few yrs hes bound to miss some time somewhere, and gets shelled alot more than he used to...

if your gonna pay him the 13mil just to help coach the young guys id say forget it...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 3, 2007 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well,
Why couldn't we sign Schilling and trade for Burnett? Yes the Schilling money balloons payroll, but for only one year. Wouldn't a rotation of

Burnett
Wainman
Schilling
Pineiro
Loop

be well ahead for league average?

by nybirdfan on Nov 2, 2007 10:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

what about Mulder
He's signed for $6.5M next year and is expected to be ready in time for Spring Training.

by john vb on Nov 2, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mulder
most fans here are counting Mulder out, I personally am not counting him out just not counting on him to be Mulder good until he proves he can be.

by StLHugo on Nov 2, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mulder
I expect that he will start the season on the Dl. Then I would make sure does every rehab start he is allowed by rule. He seams to need to learn how to pitch again. I don't expect he will ever be dominate again. Maybe he can re-make himself into a "craft lefty."

 Ok lets say by June Mulder is ready. He has proven he can pitch at AAA. Then Loop misses a couple of starts to see if Mulder is for real. If so Loop stays in the pen, and we have a pitcher to trade at the deadline.

 Then Carp might be ready to pitch in August or September. He will not be rushed! Playoff rotation

Schill
Burnett
Wainman
Mulder/Carp/Pineiro

Come '09 Mulder's option could be picked up IF he proves himself.

Carp
Burnett
Mulder
Wainman
Pineiro? or AAA replacement.

by nybirdfan on Nov 3, 2007 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it fair
To say that last years offense is good sample of their ability?

At the end of the year only Pujols was left standing from the starting 8.

I'm not saying that they are a 1000 run team...but I have to say that Cairo starting every game wont happen this year.

I hope.

by Harknights on Nov 2, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This analysis...
confirms my (non-statistical) belief that the Cards gotta add a "legit" #2 starter... somehow, someway! My "hunch" is that Schilling will re-sign with the Red Sox (I don't see him returning to Philly; not with that bandbox ballpark!); and I'm not "sold" on Glavine... Shea tends to be a "pitcher's park", as does Busch III. The rest of the FA crop seems pretty crummy.

The way I figger, all the Birds' "good karma" from October 2006 turned into "bad karma" in 2007. If the Birds can keep their "karma" from running over their "dogma", (Translation: "DON'T TRADE THE "KIDS" FOR A RENTAL!") they'll contend in the Central.

But I'm a cock-eyed optimist; I'm looking for "bounce-back" seasons from Rolen and Edmonds, improvement from Kennedy, and continued decent hitting from Molina...

Meanwhile, the Blytheville (Ark.) Chickasaws (the team I do play-by-play for) are 10-0 for the first time since 1973 heading into the state football playoffs, and the Blues look competitive! Life's pretty good!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 2, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cock-eyed Optimism
During a bout of insomnia last night, I started thinking about a high-risk trade that, if all worked out, would net the Cardinals a #2 rental while improving the farm system. Hear me out:

Bruce Manno was let go along with Walt and signed on with the Braves. He's likely got a list of Cardinals prospects that he'd want to bring along with him to the Atlanta system who he values more highly than Luhnow and Mo. So suppose we were able to swing some prospects that Luhnow doesn't expect to be contributors but that Manno believes in for Mike Hampton and some cash. (Hampton's owed $15 million this year and Atlanta's on the hook for all of it.)

From all reports, Hampton's rehab is going well (and yes, I know we've heard that before.) A healthy Mike Hampton could be a dark horse top-of-the-rotation starter.

Then when Carpenter returns, we flip Comeback-Player-of-the-Year Mike Hampton for genuine prospects.

If the Braves were to pick up three million or so of his salary—and the stars align just right as I'm wildly optimistically supposing—we'd only be on the hook for a half season of Hampton, or about $6 or $7 million, all of which is offset on the books by Carpenter's insured salary.

It'd be a bold gamble for Mozeliak.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice
That's a very cool idea.  I don't know if it's likely to happen, but it seems plausible.  i'm sure Atlanta would love to get rid of most of his salary, and it would allow us to get a (potential) #2 starter.  The downside of course is that he may not be any good, but it sounds pretty low-risk to me.

by john vb on Nov 2, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's pretty high risk
You're talking about taking on 12-15 million bucks of payroll for, potentially, nothing. (Plus buying insurance, presumably, that would have to be ginormously expensive.)

But if it worked out, Mo would look like a genius, especially if Manno's picks didn't blossom in Atlanta's farm system.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow....Hampton would be a real big
risk because he has now missed almost 2 full seasons in a row, and he isn't all that young any more.  Yikes!  

by jillsinmo on Nov 2, 2007 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's cock-eyed optimism!
I was pretty disappointed we didn't sign him going into 2001 until I saw the contract details. Yipes.

Every Spring, I've been eager to see whether he'll have a healthy season again to rebound to his pre-Coors form. I'd love to see it happen with him wearing the Birds on the Bat.

But yeah, I know this would be a high-risk move that would have a lot of people screaming bloody murder over if any recognizable names were included. Jason Motte and Bruce Manno have a good relationship, so he'd definitely be involved if I'm not completely smoking crack here.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have nothing against Mike Hampton;
I feel bad for all of the injury trouble he's had; the Braves and their fans probably feel a lot worse.  I just think you'd have to have a lot of other pieces in place before you would even think of adding someone who has got to be seen as a huge question mark.

by jillsinmo on Nov 2, 2007 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hampton would be cheaper
According to MLBTR he would only be around $8M, and if Atl would take some of that it would be worth the risk.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/mike_hampton/index.html

by TimJ on Nov 3, 2007 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's news to me
If the Braves can sign Glavine, I'd think they'd be happy to part ways with Hampton with so little committed to him for next year.

As stupid as it sounds, $8M isn't a bad gamble on Hampton. A rotation of Smoltz-Hudson-Glavine-James-Jurrjens doesn't leave room for Hampton and we're talking about two new GMs looking to make their mark.

by liam on Nov 3, 2007 5:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good lord
shouldn't we stop going down that path?

by sdrone on Nov 2, 2007 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How's Caruthersville doing?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Nov 2, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right that regression to the mean
in the rotation alone isn't enough.  But surely the entire offense isn't going to have as horrible a year as they did last year--Rolen and Kennedy are probably due decent bumps just due to regression.  Probably Albert, too.

by Valatan on Nov 2, 2007 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I liked the exchange
larry: so, say we acquire aj burnett..
reader: How are we going to...
larry: ...stay with me! if we acquire...
reader: I'm just saying, how are..
larry: damnit, stay focused! with aj burnett in the...
reader: I'm just saying, we are going to have to..
larry: whose writing this blog, me or you? you are ruining my whole projection
reader: Alright, whatever you say.

I chuckled when reading "stay with me"

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stage left:
"AJ Burnett emerges from the corn"

by sdrone on Nov 2, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What was the ZIPS projection for last year?
Good analysis as always but why not include the Zips projection for last years rotation (planned and real).  I think both would have been much lower than reality and would have shown some of the fallacy of relying on Zips fro planning puposes.

by cariocacardinal on Nov 2, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What was the ZIPS projection for last year?
Good analysis as always but why not include the Zips projection for last years rotation (planned and real).  I think both would have been much lower than reality and would have shown some of the fallacy of relying on Zips fro planning puposes.

by cariocacardinal on Nov 2, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

all the projection systems were inaccurate
last year, including the VEB community. in our community projections, kip wells was a 12-game winner with a 4.40 era and reyes was a 13-game winner with an era of 4.15. and of course none of us (fans or computers) anticipated that carpenter would only make 1 start.

so it's true that ZIPS was inaccurate. so was PECOTA; so was bill james; so was the average fan.

it's true that projections sometimes miss the mark badly, but that doesn't mean projections are worthless. each of us in assessing the roster is mentally making our own projections, asking ourselves "do the cards have enough pitching?", "enough offense?", etc etc. the common wisdom today --- ie, the cards need a #2 starter ---- is based on the general perception ("projection") that none of the pitchers currently on the roster is likely to pitch at a #2 level. hence it's perceived the cards need to add one.

all i've done is put hard numbers to that exercise, and then project a range of different scenarios to get a more concrete sense of where the team stands. obviously nobody can predict the future --- if they could, the games wouldn't be worth watching, eh? but we can assess probabilities. that's what ZIPS and other projections systems are useful in doing.

by lboros on Nov 2, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Projections
You can see the VEB projections vs. reality here and here, if you want.

by Cardinal70 on Nov 2, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sold on this projections...

... as I was not sold on last year's Reyes projections. Let's try to be realistic on some considerations:

1 - We all know that, if healthy (and this time I expect him to be healthy!!!), Mulder can easily provide a sub 4 ERA.

2 - It is very unlikely that both Looper AND Pineiro would perform worse than 2007, expecially Looper, I do not see why he should be worse with more experience in starting, with better arm strength and stamina due to specific training.

3 - Just 8 starts from Carp? I was expecting at least 12.

4 - just having Rolen back with (for him) subpar 2006-like stats and Albert on two legs would add a lot.

In my opinion, this team, as it is (ok maybe just sobstituing Reyes with Shilling), could be a very nice surprise, because the ceiling is high just with players playing healthy.

After saying that, of course if they get some good pitcher without selling the important parts of the farm, I would be more than happy!

GO CARDS

by SuperSeve on Nov 2, 2007 11:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Omar Vizquel
apparently the Giants are looking to offer him a 1 year deal with incentives.  He made $4 M last year as part of his 3 year deal.

Would it be worth kicking the tires on Vizquel?  Offensively, he's pretty terrible (ZiPs-.249/.314/.308) but then again, Brendan Ryan is only projected at .265/.315/.351 . Vizquel also appears to be a creature of his home park, seeing drastic drop offs from Home and Away this past season (although it was an inverse the year before).

Will his defense make up for his lack of offense?  Over the last 4 seasons, his WRC above league average SS was 7 runs but his defense was +13 runs (hat tip to FJL blog).  He has been, in essence, 20 runs better than the average SS (4 runs better than Jack Wilson).  

I'd still believe that Jack Wilson would have a greater chance of replicating that statline than the 41 year old Vizquel, but if the Cardinals truly do not see Brendan Ryan as the starting SS, I wouldn't put it past them to consider a 1 year/$4m + incentives deal for Vizquel.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If Vizquel
Doesn't cost the Cards a pick and comes with only a 1 year commitments, then sure why not bring him in as a hold over. As I said before, I would only take on Wilson with the Cards are getting Jason Bay. The Cards have the payroll to absorb Wilson's contract and as we all know what a team cannot (and ideally would not) make up for in prospects send to the pirates it can in talking on a bad contract.

by JMedwick on Nov 2, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vizquel is Type B
he would wipe out any pick we gain from Eckstein.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

umm...
I though that only garners a sangwich pick for SF--not our signing team's 1st 2nd or other round draft pick.  

It's a freebie pick pulled from the air, not on of ours.

youneverknow

by meat on Nov 2, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"one of ours"
n/m
youneverknow

by meat on Nov 2, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm very confused
and you are actually right now that I think about it.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright
I'm going to quibble a little with his Zips projection.  In the marginal 2007 to 2008 rotations, Zips projects Wainwright to be a negative.  But, he ended up with a 3.84 FIP in 2007 despite a Jason Marquis-like first couple months.  His ERAs from June through September are this: 3.69, 3.09, 2.00, 3.03.  I think you can chalk up those first couple months to the learning curve of being a first-time MLB starter (and to freakishly high BABIPs).

I'd be shocked to see him with an ERA north of 4 next year.  You pencil AW in with a 3.63 ERA, which seems reasonable, and you gain 10 more runs (1 win) over 180 innings.  3.13 ERA gets you 2 more wins.

by CardFaninVA on Nov 2, 2007 12:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Larry, what about Burnett and Schilling both?
I tried to read back through the post again and didn't see this.  The Cubs last season completely rehauled their rotation.  Ended up giving them the best rotation in the Central, if not the entire NL.

Anyways, what if the Cardinals moved some pieces to get AJ Burnett, dumped Looper for the payroll relief and signed Curt Schilling.  Schilling's 13 + AJ's 12 - Looper's 5.5 = 19.5 or $118.5 M payroll ($3 M past DeWitt's projected payroll).

So, ignore that it goes over by $3 M.  Just for arguments sake, what does a rotation of:

Schilling
Wainwright
Burnett
Pineiro
Mulder

give us as far as run improvement?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What about SS and RF then?
as I assume that Duncan gets moved for Burnett

by Valatan on Nov 2, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Valid point
goes to what I was saying in the Giants' diary.  However, I'd be interested to see by how much the two of them increase our output and then compare it to what we would get out of Ryan Ludwick in LF and Brendan Ryan at SS.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, the Blue Jays have no room for Duncan
as has been brought up many times.  It'd have to come from somewhere else.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus
I read that they're probably going to re-sign Matt Stairs -- in a lot of ways he's similar to Duncan -- 1B, LF, DH, poor defense, left-handed power hitter. If they do, obviously no room for Duncan as well. If they end up not being able to re-sign him, it does indicate that they have some interest in a Duncan-type. Whether or not they'd be interested in trading Burnett for one is another matter, of course.

by chuckb on Nov 2, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what about juan uribe
is he a type a/type b? i can't check the numbers now, but even though he doesn't hit for average or get on base, his power and glove made him about 2 wins above eckstein.

by erik on Nov 2, 2007 12:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Uribe - Type B
did the White Sox decline his option?

Didn't he stab someone?  Who am I confusing him with?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could be.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Juan
The white sox are not going to bring him back in most peoples opinion.  I think there is the same fear that Kenny has some man crush on Juan and he may be back.  He is in the kind of boat Eck is.

Juan has more talent than Eck, but I cant believe any Cardinal fans would be too happy with Juan.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 2, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He supposedly shot someone in the D.R.
but was later cleared.

Urbina didn't stab anyone, exactly -- he attacked a group of farm workers in Venezuela with a machete.  He was convicted earlier this year, and sentenced to something like 10 or 15 years.

Sidney Ponson punched a judge in Aruba.

More of the baseball legal blotter tonite at 11.

by tdawg on Nov 2, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why? Let's go down the list
  1.  Problems with the police
  2.  Started out the preseason lazy
  3.  Refuses to learn anything resembling plate discipline
  4.  Can only bat 8th, when they badly need a #1 or #2 hitter
  5.  Defense even dropped off.

by sdrone on Nov 2, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Type B
The White Sox have a $5mil option on him for next year.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i should've know he wasn't type
a, the question i meant to ask is he type b or nothing. thnx for answering everyone. seems like the trade route may be the most viable route to go here, but who i wonder?

by erik on Nov 2, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ben Zobrist
I'm a big fan of that idea bobbyballgame floated to dear diary a while back. Seeing as the Rays need to improve up the middle too, it'd take some fairly significant pieces to pry him away.

At worst, he'd replace Miles at league minimum as a switch-hitting backup MI. At best, he'd beat out Brendan Ryan for the starting shortstop job and deliver on the promise he showed as a minor-leaguer. Hard to imagine a guy who walked more than he struck out at all levels of the minors not figuring it out in the show.

Amusingly (to me, at least), the most recent mailbag from the MLB beat writer covering the D-Rays agreed with a fan that David Eckstein should be in consideration for their SS job next season.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

mlbtraderumors
has a blurb up about the WSox possibly going after Eckstein for SS then taking the option on Uribe so he can play 2B/SS.

by silent_bob on Nov 2, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I meant
so Uribe could play 2B/3B.

by silent_bob on Nov 2, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

JUAN
The book on him is his effort.  If someone can actually get him to concentrate a bit more he would be very good.  He is a bit overweight but he actually does get to some balls and he has a very good throwing arm.  The argument about him on D is he gets in very poor position because he just relies on his arm bail him out.  

I just think Juan is what Juan is.  There is no way I see him changing at this point in his career.  He has gotten by so far and will mostlikely continue the same trend.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 2, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's overweight
and overpaid (something like 5MM last year?).  

Now, if we get to Feb/March and he can be had like the Nats got Ronnie Belliard last year then it makes some sense.

youneverknow

by meat on Nov 2, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

about Bob Gibson
 am struggling to understand exactly what zip projections  are
 and how are they compiled, but I do know that a lot of  the stats can be somewhat inacurate
because of variables. In other words, the circumstances under which the player put up the stats.
and I am hoping that zips can uncover  some variables
I found the link to the article by R.J. Anderson to be very intresting, because I remember Bob Gibson career
very well.
The first 7 years of Gibson's career was in the old Sportsman Park and it was a little "band Box" with a short
left field an right field porch. The right field had a covered grand stand and Musial used to hit 'em on top of the
roof fairly often as did a lot other power hitters that came to town. It was intresting to see how Gibson would
have performed under other circumstances. How many less home runs allowed, better ERA etc.
But what I found even more intresting, was the mention of Robin Roberts and the record setting home runs he
 allowed. When mention of great pitchers of the past come up,  Roberts is seldom mentioned, but he was considered
 by many to be the premier pitcher of the fifties, because the experts then knew  the circumstanced under which
 he labored.  If I could have any say, I would put him in the all time 5. The Phillies literately pitched him to death.
It would be worthwhile to go to MLB.com and look at his record. You will be astounded.  He pitched over 3 hundred
 innings for 6 years in a row
and the 7th year he missed it by 2. Look at his complete games,  games started, shutouts. The phillies had no pitching
 but Roberts and Simmons and a few warm bodies and Roberts for 3 or four years started all year on 2 days rest.
 No wonder he averaged 26 HRs a year
 Imagine what Gibson and Roberts could have done in new Bush stadium. The only other pitcher in modern day history
that compares to Roberts in Stamina is Warren Spahn. Give a look at his record too.

by ridgesee on Nov 2, 2007 12:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He also had to deal with Solly Hemus
his first 3 years who told him everything he did was wrong and that he'd amount to nothing.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, exactly like la russa
has done with reyes . . . . .

by lboros on Nov 2, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hahah
I know you aren't saying that Reyes will be an all time great but it is telling how many great players were told they wouldn't be much, or didn't show much until a few years in.  I hope Reyes is a late bloomer I really do.

by StLHugo on Nov 2, 2007 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

come on
Gibson had what was believed to be a 97+ mph fastball that moved like a slider.  His complementary pitches were roughly early on but he could throw heat by a guy in a pinch.

Anthony Reyes can't do that.

Solly Hemus was a racist and felt slighted by the rest of the world. He was constantly over reaching to compensate for his lack of intelligence and skill.  He only got the job because he sent Gussie a letter kissing his ass when he got traded.

Gibson was 23 and even under Solly Hemus, at the age of 25 he posted an ERA+ of 137.  Anthony Reyes?  ERA+ of 73.

Trying to compare the two begins and ends with: there managers didn't think very much of them.

Gibby always had a fire to compete.  Anthony starts wilting the first time a guy reaches base.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why did I say Gibson was 23
I can't even figure what the sentence was supposed to start as.

Should read:

Gibson under Solly Hemus, at the age of 25 he posted an ERA+ of 137.  Anthony Reyes?  ERA+ of 73.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth also,
Aaron Miles is a golden glover shortstop compared to Solly Hemus when he played.

by ridgesee on Nov 2, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is a point
and I will tell you something else. Gibson and Roberts (along with a lot of others in their time, didn't start lookin "calf eyed" toward the dugout when they got in trouble; pleading for help. (as per Kip Wells) If they didn't have it,  they took their lumps and pitched through it. Roberts and Gibson never considered getting 6th or 7th inning relief. Maybe an out in the eighth or ninth. In Roberts case there was no relief, he hung in there usually for the whole nine if the Phillies were anywhere within reach. That's why his era is not that great.

by ridgesee on Nov 2, 2007 1:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't he hurt
some at the end of the season?  The article makes it like LaRussa didn't want to play him, where I think he was doing it because Bennett had nagging injuries.

by saladdays on Nov 2, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in addition to some offensive contributions?
rasmus just keep producing - .286/.400/.476 in winter ball so far (only 21 abs). Sure he had a bit of a sour-stretch this year (after a nasty sinus infection and losing 10 lbs - yet still managed to produce an ops over 900), but he's met every challenge placed in front of him so far - why not let him start next season in the majors?

Zips sees his numbers taking a big hit on entering the majors -  .245/.329/.419 - He's never put up numbers like this in any of his stops. In fact, his numbers have never dropped after advancing - they've just gotten better.  And he significantly increased his line-drive rate this year and has a fantastic eye judging by his walk rate and according to his coaches. I don't see how this doesn't translate into more success in the big leagues. I think the numbers he's putting up in winter-ball at the moment seem like a decent guess - maybe a little optimistic on the obp, but it seems reasonable to expect an ops in the mid to upper 800s. Do you think this is a reasonable assumption?  High? Low? and what kind of improvement on the offensive side of the game would this make for the cards?

by Birds on the Matt on Nov 2, 2007 3:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think if you trade Ankiel
you can replace him with Rasmus and give him the ABs.  If you trade Edmonds, you can do the same.  I'm not sure if you can with Duncan, simply because we expect 30 HRs out of Duncan's spot in the lineup, atleast I do.

I wouldn't be opposed to Colby starting the season on the roster but only if he gets 450 ABs next season.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 2, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with giving Rasmus a full shot
at center field next spring. It's been done with success often times before and he just might be up to it. If he has a good spring I'd start him and play him until he proves he,s not ready. If he fails I'd take him aside and say, "Good try son, I'll see you back here next year." As far as trading Ankiel, I kind of cringe at the thought of it. It seems like he is such a unique talent to do what he did in 2 years and I would almost rather see Duncan go. But really, I'm not for trading either one at this time. Both need a little longer look see.

by ridgesee on Nov 2, 2007 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

on mlb 2k7
my 2007 season i traded Jed as a salary dump to the Diamondbacks for C Young and Quentin. numbers arent as good for those two since a healhty jimmy had 25 hrs at the break..but helps me go afterpitching the next yr..plus my created guy is a stud..maybe the cards should get ted willimas DNA and create a clone?

anyway not that in real life arizona would do that but if they could trade a healthy jed for a young guy who has potential id do it...but may have to wait til July or AUg for thatif hes been producing up to that point...i see no team taking a High price gamble on him..but i could be wrong

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 2, 2007 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My pet pitcher got claimed
off waivers today by the Royals (who would have been in line before the Cardinals).  Although, it looks like Colby Lewis had rotator Cuff surgery in 2004, which might explain why he's never amounted to anything in the majors.  He seems to still have decent velocity but the losing 4-5 mph off a fastball could be the difference between his minor league and major league performance.

by azruavatar on Nov 2, 2007 6:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cardinals contact Schilling
Per insidestl.com.  Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but, hey, at least we're making phone calls.

http://www.insidestl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19003

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 2, 2007 6:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

did u read it on his blog?
jk im no fan of Drama Queen...I guess they are building in the Ginats role if they get him..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 2, 2007 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh
A one year deal to Schilling isn't capable of hurting us in the long run.  It's not like he's blocking a younger, cheaper player, and it's not like his salary will be a burden for years to come.  I'd rather sign Schilling or Glavine for a one year deal and have that money come off the books in 09 then offer up a multi-year deal to a Livan Hernandez or Bartolo Colon.  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 2, 2007 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

love the new banner ad...
JOE TORRE Press conference ringtones
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 2, 2007 8:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hey lboros
you get an A for stirring the pot

by Hinkster on Nov 2, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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