Q+A with dyar miller
last month the cardinals named dyar miller, the pitching coach at memphis for the last 7 years, to replace mark riggins as the cardinals' minor-league pitching coordinator. that was hardly an insignificant move; riggins had held the post for 13 years. to put that into perspective, riggins was the pitching coordinator when matt morris got drafted . . . . . he was there a long time. riggins was offered miller's old job as the memphis pitching coach, but he opted to leave the organization (where he spent the last 29 years); a couple weeks ago the cubs named him their new minor-league coordinator.
miller worked under riggins as the assistant coordinator from 1997 through 2000 and has been a frequent guest here at VEB; see my first interview with him for a brief bio (as well as some comments about wainwright and haren that are kind of interesting to look back on). my thanks to the coach for taking the time to chat; best of luck to him in his new job.
How did the change in assignment come about? Was it something you were seeking? Where did the impetus come from?
Well, I don't know. I think Jeff [Luhnow] initiated it. He wanted to change a few things. He's been around for a couple of years and made some observations, and he wanted to make some changes. And I was open to it because, to be quite honest, I've been in Memphis for 7 years --- longest place I've ever been --- and I was ready for a change. Change is good. I've never officially been a pitching coordinator, but I was Riggie's assistant for 4 years, from '97 through 2000. I covered the lower levels. And at that time I thought we were doing some pretty good things. [Ankiel, Looper, and Bud Smith were among the pitchers in the system at that time.] And Jeff has brought in Brent Strom to help me out with some things, so I think that'll be great.
Brent Strom, the former San Diego pitcher, is going to be your assistant coordinator?
He's gonna be in charge of mechanics. Well, to be truthful, a lot of things are open now. We're gonna have some meetings here in the next couple of weeks, and we'll get some more stuff nailed down. But I've been with Brent to the Domincan already last week and we had a great time, we hit it off ok. He's got some great things going, and I think he'll be alright. I don't know if our roles are really set in stone yet or not. It's just something we've gotta sit down and talk over in the next couple of weeks.
Describe what a minor-league coordinator does on a day-to-day basis. What's a typical work day like?
First of all, it's a 367-day-a-year job. It's year-round. It slices up into different areas, different times of the year. Probably one of our busiest times is spring training. You coordinate the pitching every day. You meet with all your pitchers in the morning. All your pitching coaches have a daily schedule, you get your pitchers on a program. Getting everybody in shape for the season doesn't just happen. You do some instructing, but when you've got 90 pitchers running around you're really just trying to keep everything organized and get everybody in shape.
Once the season starts, it's actually a lot simpler. What you do is you rove around --- 5 days with one team, 5 days with another one, then come home for 3 or 4 days, and then go back out for another 10 days. We've got 9 minor-league teams, including the Domincan and Venezuelan rookie teams, so that'll keep me pretty busy. We've got a nice program going down in the Dominican. Jose Oquendo and I went down there in 2000; that's the last time I'd been. Things have improved immensely down there. They've got some nice arms down there, and the conditions are a lot better. Jeff's done a great job with that down there. We're gonna get some players out of that thing.
You mentioned that you'll do a little bit of hands-on instruction during spring training and ---
I'll do a little bit during spring training, but it can be a touchy issue. Instruction in spring training is a Catch 22. You've got guys trying to make teams. If you throw a lot of instruction at a guy, changing mechanics and so forth, and this guy's fighting to make a team and then he doesn't make it, it puts you in a bad light [in the player's mind]. When you're making changes with a guy, it usually takes a few weeks to show the benefits of it. It may take longer than that. You don't just correct it overnight. You might show him a new grip or something like that, but I don't think it's a good place to make major changes --- unless you've got a younger pitcher who knows where he's gonna be, he's gonna be on a certain team regardless. So instruction in spring training is a little bit different. We'll probably just hand-pick a few guys who we want to zero in on --- Brent will hammer those guys, I'll work with them a little bit. We want to make sure everybody's on the same page --- all the instructors, all the coaches. Basically what we want to do --- and I don't want to get too involved in it, because we're about to have all these meetings --- is work on mechanics at a little younger age. Stress that a little bit more when they first come into the organization. And perhaps --- I don't want to get out of line here, but focus on a certain type of mechanics in the draft a little more too. I might be speaking out of turn.
What's the type you'd like the team to focus on?
What we're gonna try to teach is natural mechanics --- classic mechanics where you're using your body properly. It's kind of like a kid when he first learns to play baseball --- his first throw is the purest one he'll ever make.
I'm not sure I know what "natural mechanics" refers to. Is there a pitcher out there who exemplifies what you're talking about?
It's about rotation, turning your hips, using your body to get behind the pitch. I concentrate on the core area of the body --- a lot of those good pitchers have big cores. The hips --- that's where a lot of your power comes from, your legs. We try to get them to use those properly, try to get guys moving down the hill, and rotating the hips and the shoulders correctly. That'll give you a little more power, and it'll keep you injury free. And hopefully it'll give you some better control. I like angles and planes as well. And I like deception, I think that's a big part of it --- you try to stay closed as long as you can. You try to release the ball as close to home plate as you can without sacrificing your power. Some people teach getting as quick as you can and rotating like a merry-go-round; we're not advocating that type of thing.
Who are a few pitchers who have the type of mechanics that you prefer?
Clemens is one. Schilling's got them.
So when I picture those guys, I think of pitchers who stay very compact in their delivery and then explode toward the plate at the last instant.
Now you're talking. That's what we're trying to do. And we're not trying to clone everyone. If we tried to teach that to Mark Worrell, we'd be peeing into the wind. And again that's where the draft comes in, and hopefully we can draft guys who fit this mold. But we've got some nice young arms in the lower levels from what I understand. That's what I'm gonna need to do is learn some of the players. Spring training's gonna be a learning experience for me. I'm just gonna be doing a lot of observation, getting to know some of these guys.
You've mentioned the draft a couple of times --- will you have a role in the draft? Will you see the scouting reports and the video, and have the chance to offer an opinion? Sure. Mark used to see the scouting reports, and I saw them and read them when I was his assistant. I was the first one to meet them after we signed them. I think Mark sat in on the draft last year. We've got video now, you know. Video's getting really big. Strommie uses it a lot, and Mark used it quite a bit. We get video of these guys, and we analyze that before that draft. I think video's very important. From a personal point of view, I never saw video of myself until later in my career, and I couldn't believe it. It was 1979 the first time that I saw it, and I'd been pitching for 11 years. I couldn't recognize those terrible mechanics that I had. It wasn't too pretty. But it got the job done.
And in terms of the draft, when you talk about drafting a certain type of pitcher --- are you referring at all to the 2-seam / 4-seam issue that's been talked about so much? Is it about drafting guys who throw the sinker or keep the ball down?
No. All I'm talking about is drafting athletic, preferably big guys with strong arms. You know, they don't have to have size but I prefer them if they're a little bit bigger. If you start from there, you can make some adjustments.
So it sounds like a prototype might be a pitcher like Mitch Boggs --- he's 6'5" or so, can get it into the mid-90s ---
Yeah. He throws good. I like him. I've seen him throw in spring training. He looks good.
Have you had a chance to watch PJ Walters, who does not necessarily fit that profile you're describing?
Haven't seen him.
What about Ottavino?
I like him. He throws it pretty good.
I wanted to ask you about a couple of guys you worked with at Memphis last year. One of them is Blake Hawksworth. He had that great year in 2006 and got off to a very good start last year; for the first couple of months he pitched very well. There was even some discussion of calling him up. And then it just kind of fell apart for him over the last 3 months. What did you observe in terms of the cause of that? Did his shoulder start to wear down? Did the league just catch up to him?
I think he was a little tender most of the year. What we did early is we got him to establish his fastball. And I think by the end of May he was about 6th or 7th in the league in ERA. [Through May 31 --- 10 starts, 57.1 innings --- Hawksworth had an ERA of 2.98.] He was throwing a lot of sinkers and getting quick outs, his pitch counts were low. And then I don't know if batters got onto him, but they started waiting him out; they stopped swinging at first pitches.
Was he getting beat on mistakes, or were they hitting his best stuff?
I think he started to get some pitches up, and maybe his pitch selection was a little off. They were looking for his sinker, and they hammered some of those. He pitched in some bad luck, too. He almost overanalyzes. He wants to be too fine, kind of like throwing darts. I tried to get him to just let the ball go. I just think he needs to get a little momentum going and not worry so much about being perfect. He's got a pretty decent curve, his changeup's one of his best pitches, and his fastball's getting a little better. It's starting to come back. There were a couple games toward the end of the year where it averaged 92, which is pretty good. My hope is that he'll be 100 percent healthy this year. He can pitch in the big leagues.
Really when you think about it, since he came back from his shoulder surgery he's had a year and two months of good pitching, and then 2 or 3 months where he struggled --- but that bad stretch knocked him completely off the radar. He never gets mentioned anymore as one of the team's better pitching prospects.
Sometimes it's better to be off the radar. He might surprise you.
The other guy I wanted to ask you about has been under the radar pretty much ever since he joined the organization, and that's Mike Parisi. I've read that he has some supporters within the organization. What's your opinion of him? Does he have enough weapons to pitch in the majors?
I'm one of his supporters. He's got 3 pitches that are average to above-average major-league pitches. His curveball's definitely an out pitch, his changeup is solid, and his fastball is average --- and I think it can get better. His command needs to get better with his fastball, his location. That's what we worked on most of the year. We made some mechanical adjustments on him, too.
What changes did you make?
Without getting too technical, he was one-sided --- he was only throwing to one side of the plate. Now he's getting the ball inside to lefties. His command of his fastball's not quite there yet, but he's made some great progress. He's just like Hawkie --- works hard and likes to compete. I'll tell you what, those two kids --- they were awesome about doing their work and paying attention to detail. They've got that makeup that you look for in big-league pitchers. They want to come to spring training and battle. I told them to go up there and battle for that #5 spot in the rotation. Of course, it's up to Tony and Dunc whether they make it or not. But they're hungry, and that's what we like to see.
Will you be involved in handing out assignments, as far as which guy begins the season at which level?
That'll be a group decision between Jeff and me and all the coaches. Dunc may get involved in some of that too. He should. It's important to have continuity from Tony and Dunc all the way on through. They're the top dogs; they gotta tell us what to do, in a way.
What's your opinion of the 8-man rotation that was used at Quad Cities last year?
It's ok. I think it's better at the lower levels. But here's what I'd like to see. I'm not saying we baby guys, but I'd like to see pitchers go through the 7th and 8th inning more often. When they get into trouble, leave them in there to fight through it. Because that's what they're gonna have to do in the big leagues. I'm more for that at double A and triple A --- let them fight through some of those jams. Let them throw 120 pitches a couple of times in a row. Let relief pitchers throw 2 or 3 innings at a time instead of 1 inning here and 1 inning there. That's something we need to talk about as an organization; I'm just giving my opinion. But it's a lot tougher to pitch in the big leagues, so you gotta be tough. Make pitching down here a little more like it's gonna be up in the big leagues; don't make it so easy on them. I know we're overprotective because we don't want to get them hurt, but I think if we straighten out their mechanics they can pitch better and more.
Baseball's changing. There's more emphasis on the minor leagues now, player development. We've gotta keep up with the times and be on the cutting edge on some things.
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116 comments
Comments
wow.
Curiouser and curiouser.
by the red baron on Nov 19, 2007 9:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great quote
"Baseball's changing. There's more emphasis on the minor leagues now, player development. We've gotta keep up with the times and be on the cutting edge on some things."
Another superlative interview LB!
by Zubin on Nov 19, 2007 9:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great Interview
by indakind on Nov 19, 2007 9:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
good stuff
by erik on Nov 19, 2007 9:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Interview
I found the comments on Hawksworth and Parisi very intriguing and encouraging. It is easy to forget that Hawksworth is only 1.5 seasons removed from major shoulder surgery. This is a huge year for him. Hopefully he can find "it" and be a contributor to the big club in 2009, or sooner.
Parisi sounds like a diamond in the rough. A good curve plus a decent change against a fastball that you can reliably spot is a great recipe for success.
by Hungry Jack on Nov 19, 2007 9:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Core Mechanic
I am a little concerned with him describing a "quick/merry-go-round" type of thing. What he described in the first part of the answer about using the core is not in opposition to having a quick arm. Basically what should happen is that the legs and core should be moving as quick as possible to build momentum with the shoulders staying closed as long as possible. This basically loads yours abs and core with a lot of stored energy, like winding a spring up. When the arm and shoulders finally start to move it uncoils the core and speeds up the arm. Arm speed equals velocity.
That is a lot harder than it sounds and take a incredible athelete to pull off. It typically is the reason that I think when you draft two-way type of players (Tommy Pham) the team needs to analyze the atheletic ability of the player. If they are off the charts atheletes, they should be pushed toward pitching...
by BigJawnMize on Nov 19, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great Interview
I'm really glad to hear that Brent Strom is being brought in to help Dyar out. As I have said before, I think Dyar could use help on the analysis/mechanics side, and I know that Brent is a sharp guy who knows how to use technology well.
Also, I am big fan of focusing on throwing with the core and not just the arm. I have talked at length about the importance of hip/shoulder separation in my web site and have some great examples of guys like Tim Lincecum doing this...
- http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Examples/HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders.html
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 10:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pain
by BigJawnMize on Nov 19, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Abs
By doing this you stretch the muscles of the core when enables them to powerfully pull the hips around (due to something called the Stretch-Shortening Cycle).
Some people try to achieve this by reverse-rotating the shoulders, but I don't like this because...
- It's not what pitchers like Maddux and Clemens do. They tend to break their hands back toward 2B.
- It will tend to lower the arm slot.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Front arm
I don't mind the idea of reverse rotating so much as long as the shoulders don't get ahead of the arm as they come around. If the arm is laggin behind, that is a shoulder injury waiting to happen. Andy Benes comes to mind when I see this.
by BigJawnMize on Nov 19, 2007 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arm Lag
See this piece about leading with the elbow...
- http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Examples/LeadingWithTheElbow.html
...and this piece about Scapular Loading...
- http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Examples/ScapularLoading.html
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong term
by BigJawnMize on Nov 19, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What To Look For
- Whether the hips are rotating ahead of the shoulders. In the case of kids with weak arms, the problem is often that their shoulders are rotating ahead of their hips, which means they are throwing (pretty much) all arm.
- Assuming the hips are rotating ahead of the shoulders, the thing to measure is the degree to which this is happening. 30 degrees is decent, especially at the youth level. 90 degrees is exceptional (e.g. top 1%). 90 degrees for a RHP means the hips are completely open (belly button and belt buckle facing home plate) while the shoulders are still completely closed (e.g. facing 3B). I have seen it in Tim Lincecum, Nolan Ryan, Cliff Politte and just a few others.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No questions about Anthony Reyes?
But, I'd have been interested to see what Dyar had to say about it. He was mostly responsible for bring Anthony along the last 3 years. I wonder what he sees as 'what went wrong'?
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i asked about anthony
miller did not say anything we haven't heard before. but he has already said too much on this subject and didn't want to be quoted.
by lboros on Nov 19, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
by indakind on Nov 19, 2007 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes and Miller
Reyes' problems are much more fundamental and the root cause of the problem needs to be dealt with during the process of drafting pitchers.
I will say that the Cardinals do seem to be getting better at this. David Kopp was my favorite guy in the draft and I also liked Jess Todd. Mortensen also looks like a nice pick, although I didn't see him.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no offense,
by eglasier on Nov 19, 2007 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
like i said,
by lboros on Nov 19, 2007 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you answer me this?
I mean, I can't imagine there is anyone else in the organization that needs more attention to that matter than ole iron bill.
Of course, I guess you couldn't answer that if he said "Anthony's getting traded".
Hmmm...
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
The more Dyar (and everyone) talks about Reyes' issues the more you drive down Reyes' perceived value.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was more wondering
Another outstanding interview, LB -- maybe one of the best. Miller sure seems to be high on a lot of the pitching we have in the minors -- that's good to see. I'd sure like Hawksworth and/or Parisi to become major-league starters and he provides reason to think it might happen.
by chuckb on Nov 19, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Outstanding!
by matt reeder on Nov 19, 2007 11:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not at all crazy about it
The other thing that bothered me a little is that he seemed unsure about the problems Hawksworth had last year. "I think" this. "I don't know if batters got onto him." Maybe I'm making too much of it; maybe he was kind of caught off-guard and was going strictly from memory but, as his pitching coach last year, I would have thought he'd be more certain about what Hawksworth's problems were.
by chuckb on Nov 19, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Counterpoint
At the risk of taking liberties with Miller's words, it sounds like they're going to be implementing a system-wide emphasis on conditioning and mechanics, from draft to call-up. That's a good thing, even if they don't follow through with the 120 pitches in consecutive starts thing. If you make that as the goal, it might help to make the pitchers take their long-toss and other conditioning drills more seriously and may speed up the thrower-to-pitcher learning curve, as the pitchers will have to plan on going deeper into games—they'll need to work harder on preparation and getting quick outs.
That may be coupled with a de-emphasis of individual stats—another way of not coddling pitchers by leaving them in situations where they may struggle to succeed. If you ask a guy to take something off his fastball so he can go deeper, you can't hold back his advancement if he allows more hits as a consequence. I could see it working out if they preach it early and often to the pitchers and work hard to keep their spirits up when their stat lines don't look pretty.
by liam on Nov 19, 2007 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Dyar
by azruavatar on Nov 19, 2007 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pitch count
The great ones pitched a lot in the minors. I thnk teams should be looking at upping pitch count and innings in the minors.
by ICbirdfan on Nov 19, 2007 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no
On a side note, many people point to the Braves as the example for throwing more. They have two between start throwing sessions compared with one session that most teams have. They try to control these sessions where the pitcher is tossing at about 80%.
by BigJawnMize on Nov 19, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves
by chuckb on Nov 19, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Throw more -- yes
by chuckb on Nov 19, 2007 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
by erik on Nov 19, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is it possible
by nybirdfan on Nov 19, 2007 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
120 Pitches?
The key variable is mechanics.
That's why different people respond differently to what PAP and PAP3 label as abuse (as is why I don't find PAP3 that compelling). Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens have been able to stand up to abuse due to their superior mechanics. Mark Prior and Kerry Wood did not due to their inferior mechanics.
That's why I don't buy the whole Butcher Baker thing.
Of course, if you abuse a pitcher with poor mechanics, you're only going to hasten his demise.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN Reports
by OCCardsFan on Nov 19, 2007 12:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good deal for both teams
by silent_bob on Nov 19, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that all Garland ended up costing?
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SS
ECK, Barden, Ryan, Miles, Kennedy, Hoffpauir....
Those guys just did not sound quite as good as Orlando.
I think the sox may put Uribe at 2B or just trade him. They signed him for a low amount and would not mind moving him.
by ICbirdfan on Nov 19, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Garland is vastly overrated.....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 19, 2007 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh hell yeah....
by Timbo02 on Nov 19, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Garland is an above average to well above average starter who has 200+ innings in 4 straight years (190+ in 6 straight). The declining peripherals make you worry, but he'd have to significantly underperform what he's done the last 3 years to equal Cabrera.
by joker24 on Nov 19, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching is worth more
by FunkeeC on Nov 19, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all I can tell you....
by Timbo02 on Nov 19, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I too live in Orange County
by FunkeeC on Nov 19, 2007 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Time will tell that...
by Timbo02 on Nov 19, 2007 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
by chuckb on Nov 19, 2007 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Eckstein signs elsewhere,
by cardsrul on Nov 19, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since Cabrera and Renteria
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing...
by Timbo02 on Nov 19, 2007 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL....sure!!!!
by Timbo02 on Nov 19, 2007 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great interview, by the way
by liam on Nov 19, 2007 1:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
...It is.
"No. All I'm talking about is drafting athletic, preferably big guys with strong arms." "Natural mechanics etc..." "yada etc."
It all sounds good until we start talking about young pitchers throwing 120+ pitches and back to back games. Hopefully, thats just a way of exaggerating the fact that minor pitchers will be throwing more often to develope strength. Can see that pitching your way out of jams in the minors is the place to start, but not to the extremes Millers talking here.
Sounds like he has faith in the need for several fundamental changes in the orgs. future as well as in some of the kids we have now.
Great stuff on a major subject of interest...!!
by cardschinmusic on Nov 20, 2007 5:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
angels could
by cm1000 on Nov 19, 2007 1:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lowell signs with RedSox
Methinks that Rolen is staying. What other teams need a 3rd basemen?
by bukowski on Nov 19, 2007 2:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Who Needs a 3B?
Dodgers - No more Nomar, Furcal for Rolen?
Twins - Punto doesn't cut it, now they to replace Hunter's bat
Angels - This lineup needs a bigger bat, Figgins might be expendable
Jays - some rumours about Glaus, but he's signed thru 2008 with a player option for 2009
White Sox - Some rumors of Fields going to LF, Crede is FA
Rangers - Blalock probably belongs at DH
by Hungry Jack on Nov 19, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3 years, $37.5 M
by chuckb on Nov 19, 2007 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dyar's Good and Bad
Of course, you could argue that that's a moot point because it's INCREDIBLY hard to change a guy's mechanics by the time he reaches the big leagues (and you may end up ruining him).
If you're worried about a guy's mechanics, you should have weeded him out during the draft process. That's what the team I'm working with is trying to do; to see if I can help them find the Greg Maddux's and stay away from the Mark Prior's.
Of course, this isn't foolproof. Every once in a while you'll come across a Kip Wells. A guy with solid mechanics and stuff who seems to have a problem with the yips.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 3:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
high speed video
You might not want to answer this, but I was thinking that with the development of the pitch FX system at the major league level, teams would begin to be able to determine an actual break per speed ratio that would be considered plus stuff. Even fastballs will have a certain movement per mph ratio that we would consider lively.
It seemed to me that if a team could obtain these ratios they could set up portable systems to measure actual pitch movement of amatuer pitchers. It could be a more reliable way to identify which ones have major league ready pitches.
Are ther any teams doing stuff like this. I have an outline that has some of the equipment and software that would be needed identified. I just haven't developed it because I had no idea who to send it to.
by BigJawnMize on Nov 19, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Thought, But No
First, I'm not totally confident in the accuracy of the Pitch/FX system. I have seen it give some good info and some crazy info.
Second, especially when you are scouting at the HS level, there's no way of getting a consistent vantage point. This might work in a college setting or in a try-out/showcase type setting, but even then I'd question the data.
Third, a critical factor isn't the AMOUNT of break, it's WHEN and WHERE the break occurs (and the orientation of the break). A good, plus Curve Ball (CB) will often break as much as a bad CB. The difference is that a good, plus CB breaks much LATER than does a bad CB. The later the break occurs, the harder it is for the hitter to react. In fact, in many cases a pitch with less, later break will be better (e.g. harder to hit) than a pitch with more, earlier break.
Now, all of that is theoretically measurable if you had the right vantage point, but the Pitch/FX system isn't up to the task. Basically, it's just a gimmick. Yes, a cool gimmick, but a gimmick nonetheless.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really...
by joker24 on Nov 19, 2007 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Break
by thepainguy on Nov 20, 2007 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Screw Pitch FX
You are right about late movement, but if it is accurately deployed everything you mentioned is measurable with just high speed photography. Ballistic companies have been tracking thing much faster than a baseball for a large amount of time.
Second, isn't there a large portion of scouting that uses the showcase. I am personally thinking that this would be deployable in a Latin America camp type environment. If you could develop a large enough base of MLB pitchers throwing using the same system, just by using the players on ones own team, then you could compare the amateur talent to that. Consistent vantage points are not necessary. What is necessary is multiple view points synced correctly.
by BigJawnMize on Nov 20, 2007 6:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tall and Fall vs. Drop and Drive
Its my opinion that the best way to prevent arm injuries is through these two things. Look at a guy like Mark Prior. People claimed he had perfect mechanics while he was coming up...but by the time he hit the majors he was unaggressive with his legs, his arm circle was long and loopy, and he didn't finish his pitches. No part of his delivery, no matter how pretty, was perfect.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 3:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Terms
Second, as I have documented on my site, Mark Prior's mechanics DID NOT change from college to the pros. If you compare video of him pitching in 2003-2005 with video of him pitching in 2002 at USC, you will see the same thing. See...
Third, the guy who said Mark Prior's mechanics were perfect was a guy named Tom House. Tom House also happened to be Mark Prior's pitching coach and designed Mark Prior's mechanics. So Tom House is not exactly an impartial, objective observer. Will Carroll and Tom House also happen to be friends (they met during the writing of Will's book "Saving The Pitcher", which holds up Mark Prior as an example of perfection), so you have to take what Will says about Mark Prior with a grain of salt.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In these videos
Looking at these videos, which have been synched from leg lift, I can't see how you can possibly say that his mechanics weren't different from USC...And once again, not good at USC, just better. He went from having C- mechs (due to the spot his foot lands and his painfully slow lower half, despite his tree trunk legs) to having D- mechanics. Whether this was due to injury or coaching, I have no idea. This guy was injury waiting to happen out of USC, and got even worse, not better.
Looking at the last series of videos, the thing that I see immediately is his upper body by 07 is horribly weak. He's not aggressive at all, and it looks like he pulls open too early. His chest finishes high, not driving towards the plate, but just sort of spinning around for the ride. That's a horrible position to finish in.
The major difference between '01 Prior and the '04 Prior is his pace. He's got himself beat by a couple frames in 01, with a later hand break and shorter, quicker arm circle. In 04 he was getting long with a VERY early hand break. In both, his arm action was still unnatural in that his back elbow is too high (something you point out rather eloquently on your site BTW, and something I'm in total agreement with you in that its a bad thing to be doing). That would concern the hell out of me if I were looking at drafting a guy like Prior.
I think basically you and I are both in agreement that he was not exactly good in the first place though. My point is that somewhere along the line he went from a ticking bomb to a holy-shit-bring-in-the-bombsquad-and-pick-the-right-wire bomb.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Prior
- http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/mark_prior2.gif
- I use a 2 to 8 scale when grading the pitchers I see. A Mark Prior clone is a 2. A Greg Maddux clone is an 8. Fortunately, of the guys I saw in the 2007 draft, I didn't give out any 2s or 3s, so the world might be getting better.
- The arm action is identical between the clips, which is the most important thing. The only difference is the pacing.
- Pacing isn't as important as some people (e.g. Carlos Gomez) say it is. What's more important is timing (the angle of the PAS forearm at the moment the shoulders start to turn), and Prior's timing has always been terrible. He's got a terrible problem with rushing, which is the root cause of his Labrum problems.
- When looking at the 2007 video, you have to keep in mind that this is a guy dealing with a serious shoulder problem, and he is probably compensating for things (which will make his mechanics even worse).
- Mark Prior was certainly taught to do what he does. Anthony Reyes was taught to do the same things (as was Ian Kennedy to a lesser degree). Tom House got the idea of the Inverted W from a guy named Paul Nyman.
- Many pitchers (e.g. Greg Maddux) keep their torsos more upright than people like Tom House advocate. You're trading off the height of the release point and the closeness of the release to the plate. The angle of the torso has nothing to do with one's velocity.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But some decliners work out pretty well
by Red in Chicago on Nov 19, 2007 3:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also
Both are righties
by StLHugo on Nov 19, 2007 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Minor league reclamation projects??
by cdb on Nov 19, 2007 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brazelton
Hark:
What I don't understand [is] ... the Rays kept messing with him. They changed his windup, they kept changing his secondary pitches (from curve, to slider, to cutter, back to curve).
...
Who knows if this is the reason he went downhill, but much was made of the roving pitching instructor making his delivery more fluid when he was in AA. IMHO, that's part of what screwed him up. His stuff was never really the same after that.
...
The Rays changed his mechanics after the his first exposure to the big leagues. He fell apart, lost velocity and was sent to A ball. When he got there, they let him go back to the mechanics he had in college, but he never regained his velocity. I don't know where he is today, but as of 2006, he sat at 87-89 touching 92. He hasn't hit 95 in years.
Then there's Dyar Miller's comment:
What we're gonna try to teach is natural mechanics—classic mechanics where you're using your body properly. It's kind of like a kid when he first learns to play baseball—his first throw is the purest one he'll ever make.
While it'd be nice if the coaches could teach him to re-learn his natural mechanics, it's hard to look at Brazelton—a can't-miss prospect with a hard fastball and a plus-plus changeup but lousy breaking pitches—and see a bit of the VeB equivalent of the filioque clause.
by liam on Nov 19, 2007 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And two minor leaguers
Superficially, I like the LaRue signing. But am curious about the terms. (I don't see the price listed anywhere yet.) I'd rather shore up our holes in the starting rotation first, so hopefully it's a cheap contract.
Still, this seems like a good move. He won't improve our batting average at catcher this season, but he might add some poop off the bench once a week and he's got a good arm (according to the St. Louis Press machine, anyway). Works for me.
by effin fisk on Nov 19, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ewwww
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Per Cardinals Site
I've gotta say, I'm actually a fan of these signings. You can do a lot worse than Larue for a back-up. The guy has a studly arm, and definitely has a better bat than what we're used to in terms of back-ups. No word on the money yet.
by aet15 on Nov 19, 2007 4:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wasdin is awful
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LaRue better bat?
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His avg is crappy
Why do I always get so optimistic during this part of the offseason every year? I guess I'm just starving for something new to happen after a week or so of silence on the Cardinals front.
by effin fisk on Nov 19, 2007 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His contracts
2006 - $3.9 M
2007 - $5.2 M
I really hope this FO didn't just spend $3M on a backup catcher.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 19, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1M
by StLHugo on Nov 19, 2007 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2006-2007, though
If it's more than $2M or so, I'm really unimpressed.
If Yadi ever wants a gold glove, he's going to have to start 140+ games. Why the hell would you pay good money for a limp bat on the bench and maybe 20 or so starts?
Prove me wrong, LaRue.
At least the running game won't be night and day when Yadi sits.
by liam on Nov 19, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
USA Today
by birdsonthebat on Nov 19, 2007 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice job, Mo
Good arm and at least the potential for a useful bat.
by liam on Nov 19, 2007 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
33 years old
by birdsonthebat on Nov 19, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitiful
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant that Cubs series in 06...Oops
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
by birdsonthebat on Nov 19, 2007 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
Plus, I feel like contributing some of that .148 avg. to being on the Royals.
by aet15 on Nov 19, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ARod named MVP
As for his contract, well, it really isn't his fault that Tom Hicks is a doofus and offered him 10 years, 252 million buckaroos. And now that he's had that kind of deal, what is he supposed to do, take a league-minimum deal?
Anyway...good for ARod. I just can't figure how 2 people voted Mags first, even with his monster year. ARod was the best player in the game by quite a bit this season.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 5:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod in "another league" than Pujols?
by saladdays on Nov 19, 2007 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah ok
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he might be in another league
Arod great player yes, MVP you bet, classy not sure..but they dont pay them for class but to hit the ball(in case thats mentioned). His boras stunt during the world series was low of low bad advice or not the guy can think for himself right?
my 2 cents
by punchinjudy on Nov 19, 2007 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They offered him
That last paragraph makes no sense btw...
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
blame him for taking it no
It's a good discussion, and heres another question when AP signed his deal, could he have gotten more elswhere?
by punchinjudy on Nov 19, 2007 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another League?
<cymbal crash>
Seriously though they are very similar at the same ages, two of the best to ever play imo.
by StLHugo on Nov 19, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there is a
by punchinjudy on Nov 19, 2007 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
two votes for magglio
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071119/SPORTS02/71119045/1050/SPORTS03
by birdsonthebat on Nov 19, 2007 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols is a much
by plh903 on Nov 19, 2007 6:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How do you figure that?
Albert is the best 1st baseman in the league, no doubt, but his injuries/ cronic pains (no disrespect intended) limit him to basically 1st base. Albert has posted an average OPS+ of 167 in the past three years (157, 178, 168).
Given A-Rod's defensive versitility I'd give him an edge. Then again one could argue Pujol's age (27 vs. 31 for A-Rod) and his defensive prowess at first more than offset this.
In short, I could go either way on this arguement, but I can't see either is "much better" than the other.
by Zubin on Nov 19, 2007 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod + Postseason =
The guy is fantastic for 150 games a year but if you can't get it done in the postseason what is the point?
by FutureMan on Nov 19, 2007 7:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
During the 2004 postseason ARod had a 1.014 OPS and hit 3 home runs. They probably wouldn't have gotten up 3-0 on the Red Sox in the first place without him.
05 and 06 were awful for him, obviously, but it was a whopping 29, as in TWO NINE, at-bats between the two series. And for the record, he did a better job not-getting-out than Cpt. Clutch in 05 (435 OBP in 15 AB).
This was a pretty mediocre postseason too...but he outhit Cpt. Clutch this time around.
BTW...Albert Pujols's BA in the 06 WS was a whopping .200. In the 02 Playoffs his OPS was only 880...Hardly Albert Pujols territory.
God I can't believe I'm defending ARod...But the sample sizes of the playoffs are so damn small that to say he CAN'T get it done in the playoffs is a factually incorrect statement, considering the guy has had both success and failure in the playoffs in randomly selected series...Just like Albert Pujols. Once again...I'm throwing up in my mouth right now defending a freaking Yankee. Ooo...I had rice soup for lunch...gross.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 19, 2007 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dyar miller
Basically what was said about Reyes back then really showed up this year.
- he worked up in the zone way too much
- he seems to get under the ball.
- more inning in the minors
- knows how to pitch
- mentally tougher
- battles
- works down in the zone better
I think obviously when players get to AA ball they all have the talent to pitch at the MLB level. It's not like pitcher have better stuff in the majors. I think the key is learning how to pitch, and I don't know if Anthony is ever going to learn how to pitch. He has talent but he seems to be missing some things that make guys MLB caliber pitchers.
by ICbirdfan on Nov 19, 2007 8:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
We need to dump him before Spring Training.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
- WS game 1 start
- one hitter vs. white sox
Reyes may be injured and just has not shown the upside everyone has envisioned. It may be time to trade him and get something good in return. The problem is with all the times the Cards marched him out to the mound he lost a lot of vale as a lot of MLB people saw how poorly he preformed. STL may have lost a chance to get a good trade.
by ICbirdfan on Nov 19, 2007 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols vs. Rodriguez
by Red in Chicago on Nov 19, 2007 8:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Parsing Words
"And perhaps --- I don't want to get out of line here, but focus on a certain type of mechanics in the draft a little more too. I might be speaking out of turn."
This is good. It's a recognition that there's only so much you can do to fix a guy's mechanics at the big league level. This suggests that they've learned their lesson with Reyes.
"What we're gonna try to teach is natural mechanics --- classic mechanics where you're using your body properly. It's kind of like a kid when he first learns to play baseball --- his first throw is the purest one he'll ever make."
This is an excellent point.
I have had the same thought. More often than not, a guy's default mechanics are usually pretty good. Often, it's their youth or HS pitching coaches who screw them up. That's why often the best pitchers are converted OFers.
They are un-fooled-around-with.
"Some people teach getting as quick as you can and rotating like a merry-go-round; we're not advocating that type of thing."
This is a dig at Paul Nyman. I'm glad they aren't going in this direction.
by thepainguy on Nov 19, 2007 9:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The one thing I noticed
"They want to come to spring training and battle. I told them to go up there and battle for that #5 spot in the rotation. Of course, it's up to Tony and Dunc whether they make it or not. But they're hungry, and that's what we like to see."
The word that Mulder will be throwing after the first of the year, and be ready for ST does that mean we are looking at roataion something like this?
Mulder
Wainman
Pinhead
Loopy
Hawk/Parisi
No trade or FA signing? If we can move Reyes he gets traded for a minor leaguer?
by nybirdfan on Nov 20, 2007 12:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't
I wish Carp was going to be ready at the start of the season. Carp and Wainwright up top is formidable.
by Toddius396 on Nov 20, 2007 1:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Itd be foolish
by Birds on the Matt on Nov 20, 2007 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Now that there is talk of picking up Elbert in a Rolen trade I would expect he would be looked at for that 5th spot as well.
If the medical report on Mulder is a no bullshit assessment then I wouldn't buy another pitcher. Not at this market rate.
by nybirdfan on Nov 20, 2007 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs



















