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Around SBN: Pro Combat Goes B1G: Minnesota Edition

Let's talk about . . . o wait, Bonds was indicted . . . damn.

I'm certainly not so self-involved to imagine that I can fight the news cycle.

ESPN has been running the story to lead off their coverage since the Bonds indictment broke.  Will Carroll discussed it at Baseball Prospectus.  I'm sure the story is going to be littered throughout the news media for the next several weeks. [update] I missed this diary on the topic -- there's more specific details about the indictment there.[/update]

There's an element of schadenfreude here.  I understand that Barry Bonds comes off as something of an arrogant and overly priviledged individual.  It's easy to dislike someone from a distance.  The only real perception we have of him is through interviews and his website.   His public relations manager should have been fired long ago -- if he has one at all.

That said, this whole situation is an unfortunate black eye for baseball.  Barry Bonds is, arguably, the best baseball player in the history of the game.  He's certainly the best of our generation.  To have him indicted some 3 months after he broke baseball's most important record is tragic.  Setting aside the argument of whether he actually used performance enhancing drugs, there's a very serious charge being leveled here.  Federal prosecutors don't just get indictments because they think its fun.  There's a conviction rate well over 90% for the Feds.  Major League Baseball has a fiasco on their hands and somehow I doubt that Bud Selig is going to be delicate or eloquent in his handling of this.

I'm largely ambivalent towards the hidden charge here -- that Bonds used PEDs.  I really don't care.  To think that a large number of individuals in baseball didn't use PEDs is naive.  To think that we have a good grasp of who did and didn't use PEDs is also naive.  Leveling accusations has become something of a game for some people and there's no real repercussions to deal with when that happens.  It's the same tired story that we've been listening to for the last several years.  Hopefully, this indictment and the Mitchell Investigation is done and over with by the time baseball starts next year.  I don't think it will be but I can hope.

In any event, I'd spent the previous couple of days adding some functionality to the market forcasting tool I used to guesstimate David Eckstein's contract.  This time I'm not using it to find out what the market rate is but simply to see who the best bargain is.  You'll remember that the spreadsheet takes a weighted 3-year average of VORP and UZR (or a defensive estimate since the 2007 UZRs aren't out yet) and tries to give a baseline for what the players is going to be worth in terms of runs the next year.  I'm not here to argue it's accuracy (although I was pleased with how well it tracked MORP) but merely to get a rudimentary baseline that I can play with easily.

The changes that I've made this time are an attempt to more accurately reflect player production.  I normalized all the stats for a full seasons worth (600 plate appearances and 150 defensive games) but now added a playing time factor.  We can reasonably guess that if Barry Bonds plays next year, he isn't going to play full time.  He's accumulated over 400 PAs the last few years so I can set the Playing Time column to .67 to scale the number of runs he's actually going to produce.  The first "Runs/Million" column estimates the number of runs we expect them to output per million based on playing time for 2008.

That's a single year estimate though.  When players are over 30 (as most free agents are), the aging curves are headed down and we know that players are going to command multi-year deals.  Players still can be valuable and have career years but for the most part you expect them to slow down from year to year when they get older.  I added "Yearly drop-off" column to reduce the number of runs produced after the next year.  So for example, if we think that Andruw Jones will lose about 5 runs a year between his offense and his defense combined the spreadsheet will accumulate that over the life of the expected contract. In 2008 it takes of 5 runs, in 2009 10 runs, etc.  You can plug in the average value of the contract ("AV") and the length of the contract ("# of years") to get an idea of how many runs that player will produce per million over the course of the contract.

I've got the current spreadsheet loaded up with a few outfielders.  I've taken some stabs at their contracts and the amount of money that they might land. You can download it to play around with it from here.  The estimator really likes Barry Bonds and Milton Bradley but isn't so much a fan of the other big name outfielders.  If the Cardinals want to move one of their young outfielders and sign a stop gap, Milton Bradley seems like the best bet.  Given the media frenzy that will surround Bonds for the next few weeks, I'm not sure it's a good idea to really try and sign him despite the fact that he will probably be undervalued.  As a pure baseball decision, it makes sense but from every other angle it will cause endless problems.  I'm an advocate of thinking outside the box in roster construction but forgive me if I don't want to read 20,000 Bonds columns in the local papers next year.

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Great spreadsheet...
AZ.

Do you think that Bonds will sign for only $10 mil?  I know that there are a lot of reasons not to sign him, but I could see somebody giving him $13-15...the guy is still a monster at the plate!  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Where do I find the VORP and UZR numbers for individual players?  I have one in mind I'd like to analyze.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 16, 2007 9:43 AM EST reply actions  

VORP is at Baseball Prospectus
in their statistics page or you can find previous years on individual PECOTA cards.  mgl has a spreadsheet here that has seasonal totals but the 2007 numbers are only through the first 2 months of the season or something.  I used RZR from The Hardball Times as a guideline with the older UZR numbers when I wanted to fill in those 2007 defensive values.

by azruavatar on Nov 16, 2007 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

forgot to add
it's the UZR0307 spreadsheet on that link.

by azruavatar on Nov 16, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm trying to
look at Reggie Sanders.  I just want to see where he falls.  I came up with something like 2.2 based on a $3mil salary.  Of course it's weighted heaviest to 2007 in which he played 24 games total and put up offensive numbers he's not likely to duplicate in 300 AB's...315/412/493.

How do Offensive and Defensive RAR compare to UZR and VORP?  These numbers seemed more readily available on Baseball Prospectus.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 16, 2007 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

A team has to think
that he's going to jail.  So basically, the economics of it are:
Is ((the draw at the gate-(the pain in the ass + the money you'll lose when he goes to the pokey)) greater than the cost of another option?
there is no secret weapon...there is only Oquendo.

by bukowski on Nov 16, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Ain't NOBODY
gonna sign Barry Lamar Bonds now...

In addition to the real possibility that Bonds could face trial at some point during the '08 season, there's also the possibility that Larry "Bud" Selig could suspend Bonds, using the "best interests of baseball" clause.

Bonds' career is O-V-E-R. Period, paragraph, end story.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 16, 2007 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed
I saw this line in today's post ...

"I'm not sure it's a good idea to really try and sign him despite the fact that he will probably be undervalued."

... and wasn't sure how to react. Bonds' projected OPS, VORP, etc., is going to be so far from relevant over the coming months as to make this possibly the understatement of the year. It would almost be like me saying I don't think we should sign him because he adds another left-handed bat to the outfield. Those mundane pure baseball concerns are completely out the window.

I think we can be fairly sure that it is not going to be a good idea to try to sign him given the that he will be spending much of the foreseeable future doing things like...

a) preparing for a federal hearing
b) hanging out in federal courtrooms
c) being in jail
d) being suspended from baseball

He could have a projected .4000 OPS and he wouldn't be a consideration to sign for next year.

by willievinceterry on Nov 16, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

bonds career is over
there were probably only a small handful of teams that would have offered him something pre-indictment.

post-indictment....nobody will touch him.  ever.

we've seen the last of barry bonds on a baseball field.  

good riddance.

agree with the post though, definitely the best baseball player of all time.   that title, like his home run record, will soon enough be eclipsed by a-rod.  

and then that mantle will be passed to a certain one-sacker who wears birds on the bat across his chest.

by busch league on Nov 16, 2007 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Not entirely related to your column but:
There are several community votes going on right now on who the top prospects are in our system.  I am participating in the Future Redbirds and Cards Talk ones but I know there are others.  So far the CT one has Anderson and Garcia flip flopped from FR but it seems like the top 4 are the same on both (CT is voting on 4 today and should be Perez in a land slide.

by StLHugo on Nov 16, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

We need a Right-Handed Bat anyway...
...Milton Bradley makes too much sense.  Heck, I wanted the Cards to get him a few years ago.  The guy may have a 10 cent brain, but you can't shake a stick at his talent.  

My worry:  I don't think I've ever heard Bradley mentioned in regards to the Cardinals.  My guess is TLR would be opposed to a hot head like Bradley in the clubhouse.  But who knows?  Bradley solves all of our problems in the OF (assuming he comes back healthy from the knee injury).  D.GOOCH

by GOOCH24 on Nov 16, 2007 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

I like it....
...gotta love the Excel.  Agree that we may not want Bonds or Bradley due to extraneous factors.  

Always liked Jenkins. He could be a fit, especially with Enc out, but we don't need another lefty bat in the OF - unless we trade Dunc or Ank.  

But when this Mitchell report comes out, methinks Bonds is going to be page 3 news.  

there is no secret weapon...there is only Oquendo.

by bukowski on Nov 16, 2007 9:47 AM EST reply actions  

The spreadsheet makes clear
a problem we talk about all the time.   A career year REALLY screws averages.  

Bonds' average defensive runs allowed/150 games is literally multiplying each year the last 3 years.

Rowand's offensive runs created are hilarious  his average is 26, but the numbers for the last 3 years are 14, 12, and 46!

by sdrone on Nov 16, 2007 9:52 AM EST reply actions  

I was thinking this too...
one of these things is not like the other.  

by BigJawnMize on Nov 16, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I was sitting here trying to figure out
how Aaron Rowand would have more value/million than Andruw Jones over the next 3 years.  I would think that both players would have to maintain their 2007 numbers for that to happen.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 16, 2007 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Hot Stove smattering
  • Mets are interested in lil Davy Eckstein to be a backup 2B. Offer the guy arbitration already.
  • DBacks kicked the tires on Colon.  Not sure why, as they operate on the cheap so they'd have to be expecting him to come on a 1 year/minimum deal..something I would hope the Cardinals would match and add 500k.  I think if conditioned, Colon can be a useful pitcher on a 1 year experiment.
  • Cubs have offered The Great Kazoo 3 years/$14.4 M to be their SS/2B.  Amazing what Coors Field can do to your numbers.  Go look at his numbers away from Coors or even in the 2nd half of last year.  The Cardinals should pick up 2 wins next year just by that Cubs signing.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 16, 2007 11:09 AM EST reply actions  

backup
option if they don't get Castillo - not an actual back up.

by Toddius396 on Nov 16, 2007 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree on Arbitration
I don't think we should offer Eck arbitration until the deadline to do so, we lose nothing if he signs now before the deadline but if we offer it now he could choose to just accept it.

by StLHugo on Nov 16, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

If he accepts
it is unlikely that he will get over $5 M for next year.  That wouldn't be the worst thing.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 16, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

What about Japan?
I've seen quite a few mentions of star Japanese players, and all of the numbers seen tame by MLB standards. I've got to believe there are some bargains to be had.

Plus, with Taguchi gone Tony needs someone to bow to when the lineups are announced.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 16, 2007 11:33 AM EST reply actions  

Google Ads
Hey Larry the new inline ads, is there anyway to limit them or make them smarter?  MAXIM half naked women just don't give me warm fuzzies when I am at work and I also wonder what any of us would want with Arizona Cardinals tickets.  If the MAXIM ads don't at least get less common I might turn ad block back on for this site while at work and I really don't want to do that.

by StLHugo on Nov 16, 2007 11:59 AM EST reply actions  

+1
When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?

by RosevilleRedbird on Nov 16, 2007 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

out of my hands folks
it's an SB Nation ad program. i can't remove the ads, and i have no control over the content. not trying to cop out, those are just the facts --- i literally don't have the authority.

in the comments to this thread a number of people noted that they use firefox, which apparently blocks out the ads. that sounds like the best solution to this problem.

by lboros on Nov 16, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

no biggie lb
i have firefox at home, just not at work...where it can be the most embarrassing.

by erik on Nov 16, 2007 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Firefox
LB, that is what I was referring to with Adblock.

Adblock is a firefox addon that will block certain urls associated with banner ads as well as anything inside a folder like /banner or /ad.  In the end some sites don't show things they really should and some work just perfect but without ads.  I turn adblock off on sites I like enough to try and support (such as VEB, FR, etc.) but I leave it on for stltoday and those sites that I really could care less about supporting.  I can turn it back on, and probably will, but I like giving you (or even just SBN) some financial support even if I never click on the links (I assume that just page views garners some revenue).  I figured you couldn't control it but maybe SB could look at controlling it somewhat.  MAXIM ads could be limited by time of day or something which would work fine for me.

by StLHugo on Nov 16, 2007 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I will keep the ads in perspective.
It pays SB Nations bills so I don't have to.

by jillsinmo on Nov 16, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

hmmm...
I was just thinking and saw a news story about Starbucks not selling as much as they should.
I thought to myself I have never drank a single cup of Starbucks is that wierd?

by Calhoun on Nov 16, 2007 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

I'm assuming
from looking at your spreadsheet that you expect Bradley to play a full season, which he won't, and that you're expecting Jenkins not to really suck, which he does most of the time.  Why would we sign Geoff Jenkins -- who basically is Chris Duncan with as good/worse defense, more strikeouts, and more money?  I don't care if he's "got more bang for the buck", I don't want him on the Cardinals.  Bonds shouldn't be in the discussion, he's a headache waiting to happen, and he's pretty much dispised by fans everywhere but SF.  Every road trip would turn into a circus, which will be a major distraction if the Cards are going to bring up young players like Hoffpauir and play guys who can have problems with the mental aspect of the game, like Ankiel or Reyes.

I don't see the Cards signing any outfielders in the offseason unless they can get a guy for a one year deal to platoon in center or play in left, which allows them to move Duncan for pitching help.  I'd be more interested to see a breakdown of 2B/SS projections to see who would be most cost effective there.  In fact, I may have to do that if I can find the time.

I really hate the argument that "its naive to think that other players didn't take performance enhancing substances", so we shouldn't persecute the guy who got caught.  That's like saying "it's naive to think that there aren't murderers who don't get caught, so we shouldn't punish the ones who do."  Do I think there are other players that used them?  Yes.  Do I think its unfair to Barry to be punished because he's the one who got caught?  No.  If there were 5 employees stealing money at my business but I was only able to catch one of them, I shouldn't blame that employee because everyone else is doing it but they were the one to get caught?  Baseball hasn't done a good job of policing itself, but that doesn't excuse Bonds for doing what he did.  I had a lot of respect for Barry prior to these allegations, which I believe to be true.  I have little respect for him now, and he's done nothing to help himself by being blunt and coercive on this subject.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 16, 2007 12:33 PM EST reply actions  

Also
Also, don't forget that most of the others using PEDs weren't about to break hallowed records and weren't stealing MVPs from more deserving clean candidates (cough Albert cough).

by indakind on Nov 16, 2007 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Bonds
I do not love the guy but I don't claim to hate him either.  Barry Bonds has done nothing to me. I am not saying he is right for cheating but I just don't get all this hate some people have for the guy.

I also could care less about the "steriod" era.  About everyone in MLB is to blame so lets not waste time trying to figure out who to blame.  Anyone could have come forward from 1988-2006 so it is a waste of time discussing this stuff.

I enjoy the game of baseball.  I could care less about all this Bonds stuff.  Also I would be real careful who you call out as "clean" until the report comes out.  I think a lot of names are going to come out.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 16, 2007 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

are you implying...
...what i think you're implying?

by dpmay on Nov 16, 2007 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

They probably are
We don't know that Albert is clean. Or Edwards, or Carpenter, or Duncan, or anybody.

Just because a player is on your favorite team doesn't necessarily mean he's clean.

I hope none of our guys are outed, but it totally wouldn't surprise me if any are.

by 26thMan on Nov 16, 2007 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not assuming that
Bradley will play a full year.  The playing time factor is set at .5 (meaning half a year).  That said, the spreadsheet doesn't do a great job of handling extremes (it's over-valuing Rowand and undervaluing Jones) or players who only got a couple hundred at bats each year (like Bradley).  Since I have no intention or desire of trying to fix those limitations, I'm comfortable getting a off-the cuff reaction to how the players might perform.  Bradley's VORP probably won't linearly increase with his PAs (I suspect there's a saturation type curve) but it does look like he'd be worth the amount of money he might get paid.

Re: Bonds and PEDs.  I'm not saying that Bonds shouldn't be punished.  If he broke a law by all means slap on the cuffs.  It's just of absolutely no interest to me and I do think he's become something of a pariah for the whole steroids controversy.

by azruavatar on Nov 16, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

well stated
about the Bonds/PED thing.  I'd have to say that I agree 100%.
Acquire some runs... next year!

by madding on Nov 16, 2007 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Rasmus goes 1 for 4
Team USA advances 3-1.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 16, 2007 2:07 PM EST reply actions  

I think Bud Selig
should go down for all this crap too. They need a new commissioner that will crack down on this type of stuff. He basically sat idle when all this was happening and using the BPA as a scapegoat. That is piss-poor leadership. It's funny how they turned a blind-eye when these souped up people were bringing baseball back, and then hanging them out to dry when they didn't need them anymore. It's pathetic.
Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Nov 16, 2007 2:31 PM EST reply actions  

Well, if you throw Selig under the bus
then you should also throw practically everyone in the industry who knew "something" was going on.  If more had been made about it by someone, it may never have come this far.

by saladdays on Nov 16, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Milton Bradley...
I watched Milton Bradley over the last couple of seasons in Oakland... and he's got talent. He has patience, power, some speed, and defense. On top of all of that, he's cheap.

The downside to Milton is his attitude. Every organization he's been with has had complaints. I don't think he'll pan out just because he'd be in potential conflict with TLR.

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 16, 2007 3:24 PM EST reply actions  

Though personally..
If I had to choose between Milton and TLR, I'd take Milton.

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 16, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?
I am not against the team picking up Bradley, but if forced to choose, I would take a future hall of fame manager w/ multiple postseason appearances and two WS titles to a talented but injury-prone head case.

by willievinceterry on Nov 16, 2007 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Managers
don't play the games.

Bradley > La Russa

by 26thMan on Nov 16, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

tell that to
milwalkee

I would take a HOF manager over a "decent' player anyday of the week.

by jealousblues on Nov 17, 2007 4:49 AM EST up reply actions  

These days
you don't need to be good to make the HOF.

Has Tony's success been a result of his own doing, or simply managing good teams? How did he do this year, by the way? How did he do with the A's once the purse strings were tightened?

by VORP is too nerdy on Nov 17, 2007 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

i would propose
TLR was a "decent" manager in an era of "awful" managers. had he wasted his time getting an engineering degree instead of a law degree, he'd likely have 50-100 more wins in his career, and maybe a couple of WS's, just because of the increased understanding of statistics.

yet, given what he brought to the table, and what he was able to do with his index cards and press conferences, despite his apparent limited understanding and his massive arrogance, I still think he belongs in the hall next to other good managers who kept a job for a long time.  At some point it becomes more than just the silly cards; under TLR molina homered and AW struck out Beltran and Inge, and who cares what happened after that?

Sure, we should have won 3 in a row, but one is enough.  until next year...

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Nov 19, 2007 4:24 AM EST up reply actions  

HELP!!!!!!
I posted a diary on here a few months ago about how i needed hockey websites....
welllll
I've been doing a semester long project on hockey and need your help.  I need quotes from hockey fans about a number of things...or a hockey non-fan who likes answering questions.  You dont need to have any deep knowledge of the sport, but if you do thats cool to.

If youd be willing to help you can post back to this comment or email me at eda900player2000@yahoo.com

BLaw.

by Dttl89 on Nov 16, 2007 3:43 PM EST reply actions  

Hey
Hey i`m a huge Blues fan but I dont have a deep knowledge of the sport but I do love Blues Hockey as i`m writing this i`m watching the Blues play so i`ll answer questions if you want

by Calhoun on Nov 16, 2007 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, Bonds IS really the jerk we think
When I lived in Denver in the late 90's I spent some time hanging out with a former teammate of Bonds with the Giants...for 5+ years.  This player is extremely well respected, though he's no longer in the game.  

Anyway, this teammate made no secret of the fact that Bonds was EVERY BIT THE JERK that the media "made him out to be."  I get so tired of people saying he's a media creation.  He is not.  He's not a good guy.  When a respected guy confirms this...then it's true in my book.  

by dn352434 on Nov 16, 2007 11:40 PM EST reply actions  

None of these guys
really fit what you are describing, but I thought it was kind of funny that the three players I thought of (Kent, Benard, and Williams) are either regarded as a world class jerk, or a PED user (if memory serves on Williams and Benard).

by plh903 on Nov 17, 2007 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

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