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UPDATED: The Diary about Diaries

Dear Diary,

I just wanted to waste time and server space to vent about a small issue I have with this whole diary thing.

I feel the diary issue here is confusing.   There are unwritten rules here regarding what's appropriate and what isn't.  This unofficial rules catch many off-guard.   This is evidenced by the multiple times a diary goes up and is quickly questioned as to whether it contains content legitimate enough to warrant a diary.

The problem, I believe, is in the name.   "Diary" is misleading.   New users register and are given links to create their own "diary".   What does one do in a traditional diary?   Write anything and everything that comes to mind, personal things, or WTF they feel like.    Parents encourage children to do this.   College professors encourage english and journalism students to do this.   What happens when you take "Diary" to it's literal sense here?   You get blasted!

As I have been taught never to complain without offering suggestions for solution, here are a couple...

      1)  Change the name.   Don't call it a diary.   Call it something more term-appropriate like "Side-bar Article"  or "Discussion Point".   I am not aware if that is possible through the blog program.  Or,

      2)  Make the blog's unwritten social rules written.   Make Diary Guidelines and post them in the Community Guidelines or give it it's own guideline category.

Update [2007-11-16 12:35:1 by lboros]: lboros here; i've read the comments, and obviously this issue merits some discussion. crappy diaries annoy me as much as they annoy ev'yone else. like you, i cringe at the vapid "cards talk"-like threads --- although i don't think they're as prevalent as some of you do. my general approach has been to ignore the stupid dairies and pay attention to the good ones, because weeding out the bad takes a lot of time and effort --- and i'm already expending more of those on the site than i can comfortably afford. so if we're gonna police the diaries more vigilantly, i will need some help.

Athletics Nation has a diary guideline which says, in essence: "Diary entries are not for short or glib comments; they need to deal with something of substance." the problem i see with this guideline is that "substance" is in the eye of the beholder. i can't come up w/ fair, objective, consistent criteria that clearly explain the difference between "substance" and "message-board junk." it's not merely a matter of length -- some quick-hit diaries are totally appropriate and effective and spark good discussions, while others suck; likewise, some longer diaries are nothing more than rambling, empty ruminations. and i can't see fit to issue a blanket prohibition on "trade rumor" diaries, because some of those call attention to good information, and others contain creative thinking about the roster --- but many of them are annoying and full of ridiculously unrealistic ideas. some off-beat or humorous diaries work; others grate like fingers on the chalkboard.

in the end, the quality of a diary has nothing to do w/ objective criteria like length or type of subject matter; it's all about the execution. if a poster is insightful and thoughtful, he/she will write a good diary; if not, the diary will suck to one degree or another. so i'm at a loss to come up w / fair guidelines, but i'm very much opening to hearing your ideas. if you have suggestions for how to distinguish legit diaries from junk diaries, post 'em here.

if we do come up with good criteria, the other issue is enforcement. i already spend more of my time policing the site than i'd like, and that subtracts from the time i have available to think (and write) about the organization itself. so if this is going to be policed more vigiliantly, i'll need some help. if anybody has any ideas re an enforcement mechanism and/or wants to help enforce the guidelines and decide whether or not each diary passes muster, let me know.

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It took me awhile to get the hang of it
anybody remember my poetry war? I think a lot of the rules make since. If it is just a thought put it in the Main thread. I know it is not as prominent as your own post up there for everyone to see but it will get a read maybe even more so than on the side bar. If I don't like a title or it's been done to death I won't even open the post. When you read the main thread you have to go through all of them to keep up with the conversation.

I would like to request a spell check function though. Would be nice.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 15, 2007 4:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

firefox
if you are using firefox as your browser you can have spell check.  i wouldnt mind an edit function, but its not a big deal.  

by dmb60614 on Nov 15, 2007 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

there is a good
little dictionary/thesarus you can download for free. it is called WORDWEB. just google it and you will find a download site. It installs right on your quick launch in task bar and you can pull it up any time. if you highlight word in your text that you  question. it will pull up that word with correct spelling and you can change just like in MS word.

by ridgesee on Nov 15, 2007 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

diary
i think thise definitely qualifies as a good topic for a diary

i have only put up a few, with middling success

i found something out the other day that i didnt know; when you click on the diary link (which i had somehow never done before) all the diaries come up whole, and you have to scroll down through them, either reading each or scrolling through

after realizing this, i will be more careful about what i put in a diary; i just always thought they could click on it if they wanted to, never realizing they were having to scroll through it without a choice

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 15, 2007 4:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

two sections
There are two sections of a diary to write in.  The first section is meant as a teaser the second for the article.  When you load a diary you get the whole thing, blending the two together so there is no need to repeat things from the first in the second.  Most people, myself included, write everything in the first section out of ease even though it should be split.  You can also notice that Red Baron did this yesterday with his main post, you had to click on the "read more" link to see the rest.  I value long diaries but I prefer they use that feature even if I don't look at the diary page ever.

by StLHugo on Nov 15, 2007 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Watching this blog evolve is awesome
Without LB's guidance, we're all like kids in "Lord of the Flies," slowely making sense of our places in this strange, ever-changing environment.

In the early days, LB was posting everyday. Then other front page writers emerged. Then there were codes of conduct to prevent harsh/objectionable comments in the game threads. Now we come to a new crossroads: The Diary Reformation. With each new change comes new insights and benefits, as well as new distractions. I only have one question: Who is Piggy?

It's me, isn't it. I knew it was me. It's okay, I'm ready to die.

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 15, 2007 4:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

at least for tonight
it's barry bonds
Hello, playoff watching

by nycbirdo on Nov 15, 2007 11:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'll put up some guidelines
but they may not clarify anything. prob'y two-thirds of the diaries that get dumped are duplicate threads, which is an easy enough concept to define. but the other third get dumped for being vacuous and/or unacceptably lax in writing standards --- and since "vacuous" and "unacceptably lax" are value judgments, i don't know that i can provide hard-fast rules to distinguish worthy diaries from worthless ones. it really depends on the execution.

i also don't want to have more rules to enforce. . . .

i may look into activating the "recommended diaries" feature. if you read a diary and it's good, you recommend it; the ones that get the highest scores are bumped into a privileged queue, where they can't be shoved off the front page by crappier entries.

by lboros on Nov 15, 2007 5:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Recommended diaries
may work.

I admit - I have criticized diary content without giving a solution to the problem.  The problem may be that this is a "blog" site and "bloggers" post random thoughts all the time.  Maybe I'm too quick to criticize.  But when good, quality "diaries" that encourage discussion are bumped for a random thought, it irks me.

What I'm trying to say is:  please, think before you post.  Take the time to examine the higher quality of content that LB et al provide for us here.  If you have a comment, post it in the comment section.  Thread-jacking is allowed; hell, it's even encouraged!

by silent_bob on Nov 15, 2007 5:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
A lot of this is a judgement call.  The only suggestion I have is to be able to go to other diaries on the sidebar from within a diary, without having to go to the main page.  They allow this on LGT (my hometown and AL team).  Thanks!

by joecardsfan on Nov 15, 2007 5:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"Recommended Diaries" Feature
...sounds like a pretty good idea to me too.  

That being said, having a clear set of written diary guidelines still wouldn't hurt, and they can evolve/improve as well over time because of the subjective nature of the quality.  

Anything that can be done to help weed out the repetition and low quality entries would be useful in my opinion, since searching for the wheat amidst the chaff is tiresome.

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Nov 15, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bcb
It might be blasphemous to admit I read bleedcubbieblue.com, but they use the recommended diaries feature and it seems to work well.  I generally only check out the recommended diaries on that site and they are usually pretty good.  

by raisin on Nov 15, 2007 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

recommended diaries can be good
and they can be horrible.  Go over to mydd.com, and you will see endless diaries that are essentially 'Obama press release!" with little content,a nd they all get recommended.  The recommended diary list on dailykos is generally junk, too (although less bad), as endless campaign diaries get pushed past good, analytical diaries.

I doubt that would happen here, but there is a concern that i the community aggressively selects for one subject area, everything else can get forced down the list.  Our community is small enough, though, that that is probably not a concern.

by Valatan on Nov 15, 2007 8:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
but those are from the individual campaigns and they all have an agenda, namely to get attention to their candidates.

unless someone really, REALLY wants eckstein back or something, i can't see that being an issue here.

Hello, playoff watching

by nycbirdo on Nov 15, 2007 11:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I agree
a recommended list is great for a site that has an intermediate volume that is generally very well informed, like this one.  But it can become a mess on higher traffic sites.

Of course, there, you need a recommended list just to keep diaries on the front page--I think the average lifetime of a diary on the 'recent diaries' sidebar on daily kos is something like 30 minutes.

by Valatan on Nov 16, 2007 11:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Recommended Diaries
would be great simply to keep one thread for all Hot Stove talk.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 15, 2007 10:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sensing fatigue
If recommended diaries are an easy fix, great. But if its a big time investment then who cares? I for one am not bothered by pointless diaries. I check the site multiple times a day, so fresh content isn't usually a bad thing, even when it's not as insightful as the front page posters provide. I just ignore the non-pertinent diaries.

Certainly some people have been checking this site obsessively longer than others, but it IS a public website for a professional baseball team. There are going to be visitors and there are going to be a lot of people who expect different things from this blog. Not everyone here is going to start by reading the community guidelines.

I'd rather put up with crappy diaries than lose the revered lboros to fatigue from the pettiness going on at his site.

I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 15, 2007 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely Agree
I, too, check multiple times during the day and read the new stuff each time. It really doesn't take a lot of time to read over the diary and ignore it if it's not interesting to you. I think the number of comments generated by a diary will let the poster know if they have written something insightful and interesting. Maybe if no one replies, they will spend more time next time developing an idea. In this way, we might move towards more relevant diaries without needing any strict guidelines or policing

by brafi on Nov 16, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Recommended Diaries
LB-

I think this is great.  I never know about the nature of what gets a response around here.  Sometimes I throw a diary out there that I think is well thought out and will provide a lot of discussion and it goes nowhere.  Other times I do a quick-hit and get 30 responses, it feels kinda random.  I read a lot of diaries have a lot of very good thought in them, but just don't have anything to add--it would be nice to be able to bump these to the front page with a recommendation, not neccesarily a response.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 16, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's
mainly common sense, folks. For instance, there's a diary up now concerning the Bonds endictment. If you have anything to say about it or any new news becomes available, post it there. There is no need for more diaries every single time there is a new development in the case. Sorry, but this "I don't get the rules" complaint doesn't fly. The "rules" are pretty simple--if it isn't something new, don't create a diary. Also, try reading the daily posts before creating a diary. There are many times that a subject has 25 posts in the daily thread, but somebody who hasn't bothered to check there posts a completely unnecessary diary. I've been a member here since Day 1--followed Larry over from his previous site, Curveblog. In all that time I've posted maybe six diaries. Why? Because I have nothing to say? No. But neither do I feel the need of an ego boost by trying to create my very own chatroom to ask for the 112th time who should we maybe trade Rolen for. Common sense, folks. Use it.

by rockin redbird on Nov 15, 2007 6:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Common sense
This is my first diary.

I've spent 3 years and who knows how many thousand posts here myself.

It's not that I personally don't understand the norms here, it's that I recognize a consistant enough problem to indicate it's systemic.

Maybe it's a lack of common sense, or an indication someone didn't read before they wrote.   Or maybe, it's because random thoughts go with most blogs and diaries in general.

Either way, as I'm sure you've realized after some time around the boards...common sense and average internet user are not necessarily friends.  

For the most part, it's not long-time readers who make the diary mistake.  It's newer users.  Here's what I figure happens many times:   A person reads and registers.   They decide it's a cool site and attempt to participate.   The "Diary" implies "own little section" to them, or "personal thoughts" and they jot some quick thoughts on recent events down in an attempt to reach out to the VEB community.  The community quickly replies in a not so welcoming manner.   The new reader is then at a crossroads... continue reading anyway learning the social norms as they go...or taking a bad experience and deciding to read elsewhere losing the site traffic.  

I just made an observation and some suggestions to make things smoother.   Maybe they will work, maybe not.  

by RedbirdRay on Nov 15, 2007 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're
right on, I do believe. Which is why "newbies" should check the lay of the land before offering their "wisdom." I realize that internet over-jabber is the usual way of things, but Larry has gone to great lengths to provide a forum of discussion above and beyond the norm. If people can't spend a half hour or so figuring that out before posting, then they deserve the bad experience they encounter and hopefully will go elsewhere. This blog IS something special--read some others if that seems overblown--so I don't feel much sympathy when some doofus gets blasted for posting a stupid diary. This is about the Cardinals, not the posters. I can't speak for Larry, but I personally would prefer half the traffic if what I read is good. I mean, check out BCB sometime. It has twice the amount of traffic, but as a result of Al allowing almost anything to be considered, it also has twice the amount of crap to wade though. Again, if somebody can't figure out the "rules," then he/she should probably go elsewhere. It's not rocket science.  

by rockin redbird on Nov 16, 2007 2:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW
I believe the "Recommended Diaries" idea is the best. Give that a try.

by rockin redbird on Nov 16, 2007 2:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Problem is,
a lot of people don't bother to check the sidebar beforehand to see if the topic has already been broached. A good example is the 430(give or take a dozen) different diaries on Rolen and 3rd base.

by cardsrul on Nov 15, 2007 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

endictment==
indictment. Funny it took me till I've had waaaaay too much to drink to see that. Didn't notice it when I was sober.

by rockin redbird on Nov 16, 2007 2:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I noticed ....
I noticed that, but what the hey, he can be indicted AND be endicted. BB and Canseco lead the pack, a shame for the game. BB probably did'nt even need the help to get to the HOF*.

I like the the idea of recommended diaries, but with only so many topics in a dedicated BB forum, some allowance is in order for a degree of repetition? We can choose to follow a diary or not.

I like the idea of potential d loggers having to check the recent diary history (going back 30 or more) before posting something "they think" might be new (there could be a header on each blank diary page with 2-3 suggestions before posting?). That might take some heat off our webmaster.

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 16, 2007 4:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm getting pretty tired of them too
this whole diary thing is getting out of hand. like why in the freakin world would you put one up about 64/40 closing? what the hell does that have to do with baseball? for pete's sake use map quest and stop waisting the boards time.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 16, 2007 4:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

i think you should have some sort of posting
history to even be approved to write a diary. there are just so many not worth reading, just message board stuff you'd see at cardstalk. it's gotten WAY out of hand.

by erik on Nov 16, 2007 8:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good idea.
I like that idea also, Erik.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 16, 2007 9:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice Idea
Maybe there can be a diary and a message board. LB can hand select those who are eligible to write in the diary. Meanwhile, others can write about baseball related topics on the message boards. If someone wants to be eligible for diary posting, they could contact LB and refer him to some of their message board posts.

This way poor writers (like myself) or people with content of lesser quality than the diaries can still engage with the rest of the Card's community.

Maybe if a rating system is applied to the message boards, it would be easier for LB to check out who might be "Diary Worthy."

by plaz on Nov 16, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How about this...
A diary gets 24 hours to elicit a minimum number of responses(lets say 10). Responses posted by the author do not count towards the total. If the minimum is not met pull it down. That means the community has the power to decide who should stay up and who should go. Traffic is a little lighter in the winter as far as posters and responses go so maybe adjust for off-season posts.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 16, 2007 12:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ouch
By that standard, I'm 4 for 6 worthy:unworthy. And the worst one got the second most comments.

by liam on Nov 16, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well at least you know wether or not you
need to work on your posts. If I get a flop I try not to repeat what I did in that post.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 16, 2007 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I figured
People weren't commenting because they were intimidated by my good looks.

by liam on Nov 16, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Lb
I would be more then willing to help you police the diaries if you choose to do so I`m willing to help in any way I can.

by Calhoun on Nov 16, 2007 12:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

maybe it's just me
but i feel like we can self-police the comments.  i tend to check a diary if it sounds interesting.  if it wasn't, i guess i've lost a couple of seconds/minutes of my life.  

if i'm not interested by the title, i wait to see if the comments pile up.  if they don't get over 10, i usually just ignore it.  

in the past year, you've moved up a couple of diaries with continued relevance/interest.

otoh, most of us simply ignore the shitty post-message board like diaries.

by sdesserman on Nov 16, 2007 3:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

various thoughts
I cringe at the "number of posts" being a qualification for writing a diary.  I can churn out enough posts to meet the minimum requirements, but they won't necessarily be posts of "value", as lboros referred to above.

If registering with the VEB site gives you the ability to post diaries, then if I've never posted a comment, I should still be able to write a diary.  Most folks are reasonable, and if you respectfully ask them to put more thought into what they're writing, they'll either do so, or move on.  If you give them the impression that this is some elitist writing site where you have to qualify in order to write, well . . ., I don't think that was the state of VEB when I first started reading and posting it, and I don't think that's the direction lboros et al intended.

A couple of weeks ago I wanted to post a diary about my screen-name's sake getting hired as a Brewers bench coach, because I didn't want to hijack whatever thread was active for the main article of the day on VEB.  I wrote a couple of sentences and posted the link to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel article.  There was some minimum boundary (300-character, 300-word, I don't recall which) that my diary did not meet, and it was bounced -- there's actually a nice system message that told me to put some more thought into it.  I didn't have time to put more thought into it.  So I moved it to a place where I have blogging privileges:  The Birdwatch, where I did not have to meet a minimum boundary.  Why do I bring this up?  It's a quantitative evaluation of my attempted diary entry.  Now, I didn't get all bent out of shape about it -- VEB isn't my site, and I'm sure some thought went into making the minimum limit 300, and whatever the limit was, it sounded reasonable to me, so I took my rejected diary content someplace where I knew I would not be restricted.  But quantitative evaluation is much easier than qualitative evaluation, and once you head down that slope, you start limiting who can join the discussion, and pretty soon, this becomes a small exclusive club.

My points are all over the place, I know, but I guess I'm saying:  I believe that VEB should either restrict access to diaries or the readership of VEB should put up with the fact that diaries are not going to be at the same level of quality as the daily posts.  If the people who are writing diaries had time to run their own blog, they probably would -- they don't, so they post diaries here.

It's an interesting topic of discussion.  No one has "the right" to post here, unless it is granted by the site and those who manage it.  But if "the right" is given to everyone, then good luck trying to enforce rules or guidelines on quality of content.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Nov 16, 2007 4:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What bugs me
isn't the supposed inverses of quantity and quality.

It's the comment police who jump all over someone for posting something they find repetitive or disinteresting.

I find it amusing that someone who determines that a diary is "a waste of time" will then waste more time leaving a comment saying what a waste of time it was.

Maybe the comment police could try ignoring repetitive or otherwise "offensive" diaries to save themselves precious seconds of their lives as well as to keep their jackassery to themselves.

/rant

by 26thMan on Nov 16, 2007 11:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm guilty
I've lashed out at people for Cards-talking the threads, not so much of the mocking of senseless diarrhea.

It's an investment: a minimal energy expenditure now to explain why a comment is pure jackassery may save a great deal of future energy spent reading continued jackassery.

Opportunity cost. And shit, yo.

by liam on Nov 17, 2007 1:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe...heed the
the number one rule, if it's jackassery, dont read it. Dont post that you didnt read it because it was jackassery. Either will serve the end result of not expending energy?

And we now have a new word for the Dictionary! Jackassery! My post is a good IE: or EG:

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 17, 2007 7:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So...
how exactly do you tell it's jackassery if you don't read it?

by RedbirdRay on Nov 17, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To be....
....more concrete, if the title paragraph intro seems not to be of interest (eg: trading players who ended the season on the DL or is not a subject area of interest personally) you can stop there and put energy into one that draws more immediate interest. But, sometimes a little jackassery is fun to read.

That said, I try to look for titles of interest before going further, the better a diary title is worded, the more likly I am to keep reading.

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 18, 2007 6:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

my two cents
I think if you make a diary it is worth it to you. It might not be to others. So if you don't like a diary then you should just leave it alone. Diary writers should not be discouraged.

by nybirdfan on Nov 18, 2007 5:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the problem w/ this perspective
is that VEB is a community. we want to encourage diaries in which people talk to each other, while discouraging diaries in which people are essentially talking to themselves --- or interfering w/ conversation that is taking place elsewhere.

by lboros on Nov 18, 2007 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
it is a community! my point is about the bickering, complaining and name calling. I have made a few diaries over the time I have been a member here. I would not make one if I didn't want to start a conversation. I get responses sometimes, but other times not.

 What I think is wrong is when diaries get responded to by saying; 'What are you an idiot or something,' or 'what the fuck is wrong with you!'

 I say if you read a diary or post and that is the best response you can can come up then keep it to youself.

 A poster or diary writer who gets no response will think about his/her next effort a little longer and harder. Believe me Larry if my posts/diaries have had more responses I would write more. I have held myself back often because my piont of view doesn't stir much action, and my sense of humor seams to be misunderstood.

 So I say to you new members here GO FOR IT! Give it your best shot if you are good like Hinkster wonderful if not try harder. Don't let the name calling and bickering discourage you.

by nybirdfan on Nov 18, 2007 9:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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