And The Drama Contines

by gdm426 on Nov 14, 2007 5:12 AM EST Comment 22 comments

with all the diary restrictions i hope a topic about the new scotty rolen article by joe strauss is diary worthy. i said this at the end of yesterday's main page entry, so if you kill it lboros it wont hurt my feelings one bit.

scotty's officially on the trading block. gee, tell us something we didn't know joe.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/00B301FCAA429C6A8625739300169280 ?OpenDocument

actually its a good read with a lot of good stuff from MO. in short the Cards wont move scotty unless they get some team to pay him most of the $36Million he's owed. AND they get an equal return for scotty. quoting MO "Rolen and his agents have to understand what our return must be to even consider moving someone of Scott's talent."

so it sounds like unless they get a "star plyer" in return & get the team to pay most of scotty's salary, then he ain't going any where. translation? he ain't going any where.

which could be a bad thing considering he's really, really mad at Tony because Tony wrote him a letter telling scotty what he needed to do in order for him to be the player he once was.

tough cookies scotty. shut up & prove to every one you are healthy & able to produce like you used to be able to. then maybe the Cards can trade you. until then you aren't going any where.

i hope the $36 MILLION DAMN DOLLARS you are going to make over the next 3 years for being an overreated bench player will help you sleep at night.

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Bro...

I don't think it's fair to call Rolen an overrated bench player. 2 years ago, we were talking about his HOF chances. Then he banged up his g*ddamn shoulder.

To me, it's stupid to trade Rolen until we see what he can do. My guess is he's a .285/15/85 type guy this year if he stays healthy. And with his defense, it's going to be hard to find a replacement third basemen. The smart play is to wait until June, determine where we are in the race and what the market holds, and then trade him if necessary.

there is no secret weapon...there is only Oquendo.

by bukowski on Nov 14, 2007 6:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Hee Sop Roadblock did that to his shoulder.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Nov 14, 2007 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually,

his real name is:

Hee Sop bullshit Cubs prospect who wasn't worth a goddamn squirt of piss who ruined two of my fantasy teams with his crappy 6ft+ korean ass Choi.

Sorry. Channeled my namesake their for a second.

there is no secret weapon...there is only Oquendo.

by bukowski on Nov 14, 2007 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why

is there so much vitriol directed toward Rolen? Before his shoulder injury, he was probably the best third baseman in the history of the game. The Cardinals signed him to what was actually a below market deal, due to his desire to play here, and he produced. Now I'm constantly hearing not just trade talk, which is just fine, but diatribes like this one, telling him to shut up, calling him an overrated bench player, and basically just attacking the guy, rather than making any kind of point. It sucks that Rolen had a career changing injury and he's not the player he used to be. But it's not as if he chose to have his shoulder shredded. You can say he plays when he should sit sometimes, but that's the same sort of behaviour we usually applaud in other players. What is the problem with Scott?

Is it that he doesn't get along with the manager? Why do I hear things like this, that he needs to grow up and get along with LaRussa? I'll be perfectly frank, if I were struggling with my job due to a physical problem, and my boss wrote me a letter telling me all the things I do wrong, and what I need to change, I wouldn't have a job, and he wouldn't have any teeth. If he were lucky, that would be the worst of it. Why does LaRussa get a pass here, even though he's one of the most difficult, egomaniacal people in all of sports? (and that's saying something, considering the line of work) You think Scott should suck it up and get along with Tony? Guess what? I couldn't get along with the man. I was thrilled as hell when I thought he wasn't coming back, and I'm still pissed that we have to look at him for another couple of seasons. Does that make me a bad person? Does that mean that there's something wrong with me?

I don't know exactly what your problem with Scott Rolen is, but this kind of hateful attack on someone who has never given any less than his all, and who has always been a great professional, is ridiculous. You can question his production and his health, but this kind of personal malice is, in my opinion, awfully misguided.

You bring home the turkey and I'll bring home the bacon.

by the red baron on Nov 14, 2007 7:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

wasn't walt fired

because he failed at opening communications among office divisions and a disregard for the minors? doesn't tlr shut down communication to his player's at will and plays miguel cairo over a hoffpauir/young kid? tlr's dismissal of the minors may be distinguished by the fact that most minors aren't in StL or simply aren't ready and his job is to win, now, but tlr hasn't exactly been joe torre in the clubhouse. imho, tlr is one of the game's best baseball minds. he's a genius, but his handling of players indicates anything but genius. if you were out of work for a couple weeks for medical reasons, and the first days back your boss gives your workload, even justifiably, to someone else without even explaining himself, wouldn't that make you a little mad? the least tlr could do is be open, honest and forthright to rolen with his concern for rolen's performance and how tlr plans to fulfill his insatiable desire to win (a good thing). if he's really treating rolen like an mvp, then wouldn't rolen know what's going on with his playing time. i'm not asking for a teddy bear manager, but tlr saying that rolen may play better because he's pissed is simply a poor motivational tool, imho.
we just saw that communication is the responsibility of the boss (i.e. walt). why does tlr get a pass when walt did not?

on a numbers note: anyone know rolen's ws value or pecota value? how overpaid is he for a 2006 or 2007 type season?

by birdsonthebat on Nov 14, 2007 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

That's what I'm thinking....
The only thing that makes me sort of understand the anger toward rolen is the fact that we can trade him. We're stuck (uh, I mean blessed) with LaRussa for a couple more years...

by joeyart on Nov 14, 2007 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I kinda thought it might escalate

Yesterday, I heard a quip from a TLR interview on XM.

They had interviewed him Monday night, so i missed the whole interview.

But, TLR said I told him there was no reason we shouldn't get long cause we have treated him like the most valuable player on the roster since the day he arrived. I didn't put it in quotes cause I can't remember exactly the wording.

The XM guys were acting like it was smoothing things over, but it sure didn't sound like a smooth over statement to me.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 14, 2007 7:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Dear Scott Rolen

Grow Up.

Yours Truly,
The Rest of The World

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 8:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well,

From that column it looks like Mo will try to sell a "healthy" Rolen. I doubt he finds any takers. Mo does have a big job to do, and that is to convince Rolen to stay.

It is interesting that Rolen is unhappy with the MEDICAL STAFF! There has been a quite a bit of conversation about that here.

I have said that trading Rolen would be a mistake because I feel he is going to have a come back year. Mo does state that he has been told that Rolen is 100% healthy.

If there is no other option and Rolen has to be traded hopefully the Angels will be interseted. I can see them taking his whole salary, and they have players I would be interested in.

Maybe a deal that starts with Rolen/Reyes can get us Santana/Figgins or Wood.

How about this guy Terry Evens who's he? LOL! Maybe he could be our right handed outfielder we are looking for.

by nybirdfan on Nov 14, 2007 8:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

My solution...

...for all this and the Reyes crap is don't bring back Larussa.

Shit already happened!

by BigJawnMize on Nov 14, 2007 9:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

It's not personal

I have nothing personal against scott rolen. I'm just looking at 3yrs @12MM for a guy who has developed chronic shoulder problems and a year after surgery put of an OPS more than 150 points below 2006 and almost 300 points below is career year in 2004.

if gambling were legal, as simmons says, i'd have to bet that he isn't coming back at 100% and the time is now to unload that contract not June or July when the entire market can see that he's not scott rolen, but quasi-scott rolen. he still has name value and the potential to get back to his old self, which has value in the market. can't say that will be the case 3 months into the season when he's debating the merits of cortisone shots again.

by trip mcneely2 on Nov 14, 2007 9:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

waiting...

2006 was also a post surgery year. if he can hit like that again his value will be double or triple what it is now. i really dont think its a stretch for a pissed off scott rolen to start the year with a bang, even if he isnt 100% healthy. if the cards trade him now they arent likely to get much in return. i think they already view him as quasi-scott rolen.

by dmb60614 on Nov 14, 2007 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My take

on the article was that Rolen was angry with LaRussa and the medical staff because they hid from him the severity of his shoulder injury and had him continue to play with it, leading to major problems and his going out of the organization for medical care. IMO, he may have a point- many medical situations seem to have been mishandled, e.g. Carpenter, Edmonds, Mulder.

by vinniefromjersey on Nov 14, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

hes had problems

dealing with managers before but if he reports for spring training without a mutual respect with tony he will be a clubhouse problem so now is the time to trade him if it cant be fixed.I think it can if rolen wants to if not trade him but he could come back and have a decent year//

by cm1000 on Nov 14, 2007 10:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

True

But that was with Larry Bowa -- who didn't get along with any of his players in Philly, so that really shouldn't count.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 14, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

There are much worse contracts

out there than Rolen at $12 million. He will play the best third base defense in the league, and if he can hit more than 15 HRs and continue to get on base at an above average pace he will have value.

A 31 year old 3rd basemen that plays stellar defense and hits .280/.370/.500 (less than Rolen's 2006 numbers) would probably try to get $10 million a year for 3 years, and might get more. Let's try to stay positive here.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Nov 14, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I honestly never thought that Scott Rolen

would ever be the type of player to be considered 'uncoachable', but after his spats with Larry Bowa and now Tony LaRussa..I'm not sure just how thin skinned he is.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 11:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

As a fellow 32-year-old

with authority issues, I say, "Give 'em hell, Scotty."

It's presumptuous and passive-aggressive for a boss to tell a 10-year employee with a stellar work history what he supposedly is doing wrong IN A LETTER. Be a man and tell it to his face if you think it's so important.

If the letter is one of La Russa's patented "motivational ploys," it's only going to further alienate Rolen.

Awesome coincidence alert: "Funky Boss" by the Beastie Boys just shuffled up on my iPod as I am typing this.

by 26thMan on Nov 14, 2007 11:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bernie outlines the problem between

Tony and Scott:

There is no "bigger issue" that hasn't been discussed publicly. Quite the opposite. All of this bunk has been rehashed over and over again.

the medical handling of Rolen's shoulder.
rolen's perception/belief that TLR was part of that by pushing him too hard, and not caring about Rolen's condition at times when the shoulder was clearly fatigued.
la russa's controlling ways ... An example: the way the manager chooses to align the infield defensively, including Rolen, on certain plays. (Big freaking deal).
la russa's belief that rolen wants to have it both ways. Complains that he's being pushed to play too much, then also complains when La Russa wants to sit him. (And this is true).
la russa's belief that rolen demands respect but never gives any in return.

What does it all mean? As i said in another thread, it's their own little Jerry Springer show. It has no real impact on how the team performs. It makes for a good soap opera. But if Rolen feels fine and is playing well, the bad feelings are neutralized. And he plays and helps the team win and La Russa wants him at 3B.

Cardinals aren't going to give him away and pay him to play elsewhere. That would be insane. Ain't gonna happen.i hope Mozeliak holds his ground.

-B

As I said before, "Hey Scott, grow up". You want coddled, then you want left alone. You want treated like everybody else, except when you don't.

Bernie has always been a "fan" of Scott and "adversary" to LaRussa, yet on this issue he clearly outlines a negative view of Rolen. Very telling.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 11:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

so there are 5 bullet points

2 are pro Rolen and 2 are pro Tony...but that clearly shows it's Rolens fault?!?

Of the two which one blew up a player in front of the world? (Ryan) That's a lack of respect. I haven't seen Rolen show any lack of respect. He might in the locker room but I don't know that and neither do you.

And because he couldn't get along with Bowa that proves it?!? I have to think that Rolen has to get in line with all the other players that didn't get along with Bowa.

I don't think any of these guys get this far without having a strong personality and these things will happen things aren't going well.

by Harknights on Nov 14, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How do you get that?

Neither at fault:
-Medical Staff mishandling

Rolen at fault:
-Dislike for LaRussa's overmanagement of the game on-field
-Complaining about being sat when he doesn't want to/playing when he shouldn't
-demands respect but doesn't show any to LaRussa

LaRussa at fault:
-Pushing Rolen in '05 when shoulder was fatigued.

I wanted LaRussa fired for what he did to Brendan Ryan. However, from everything I've seen (from Rolen not telling anyone about his shoulder in '06, LaRussa rightly benching him and Rolen finally adressing the shoulder in the playoffs, to LaRussa sticking with Rolen last year when he was sucking pretty hard), Rolen appears to have taken a stance against LaRussa and is so far into it now that he won't back down.

Rolen needs to just grow up, realize that he's not likely to find a better situation where a)the fanbase is forgiving, b) the newspapers are laid back, c) the television personalities eat out of the palm of his hand, d) a perennial competitive team, e)brand new facilities, f) close to his home.

He got everything he wanted and he'd rather throw a fit because his manager won't baby him.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rolen

Sounds like a guy who's frustrated as hell that he's injured and isn't playing the way he should. You can tell he's a tough dude w/ a hell of a lot of pride, and when he can't be himself he gets ticked off. I think that throwing an equally tough-minded, stubborn dude like LaRussa into the fray just complicates things.

Oh and btw...how many of us have sat there and listened to these two talk to each other? And how many of us have read the letter that LaRussa sent to Rolen? Oh yeah...Probably nobody. So I'm just gonna say these two stubborn SOBs don't see eye to eye and leave it at that, b/c ultimately does it really matter who is the bigger stubborn SOB? If Rolen is healthy and playing well, then I highly doubt that this clubhouse cancer crap will mean diddly poo.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 14, 2007 1:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs