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Around SBN: Chan Sung Jung Wins Thriller Over Dustin Poirier

The Draft in Hindsight, One.

There's precious little real news to report, outside of some more Rolen/ Tony crap, and I don't have any interest in rehashing that whole nasty business.  Otherwise, there don't appear to be any moves in the works, and I don't really foresee anything happening before the winter meetings.  And so, in that spirit, I thought we should start digging around in the past.  

Lately, there's been a lot of debate around here as to whether you trade your prospects or keep them, why you should or shouldn't bank on a guy, all that great conversation that only goes on in the offseason, between people who probably have a bit too much invested in the sport in question.  (Don't get me wrong and think for a second I'm judging anyone.  Hell, I spend several hours a week just trying to think of a conversation topic to write about.  So who has too much invested?)  This debate typically falls along these lines:  

Player development fan:  "You can't trade away these prospects, that's what got us into this mess in the first place!"  

Win now fan:  "This team is cheap!  They're wasting the prime years of our best player's career!"  

PDF:  "Our system can't handle any more trades.  We just have to be patient and wait for our guys to develop."  

WNF:  "You're way overrating our prospects.  These guys wouldn't even make the top 25 in other teams' systems."  

PDF:  "Our system is thin because we trade away all our prospects!  We've got the players, we just have to give them the chance to develop!"  

WNF:  "Other than Rasmus, none of these guys are any good!  This team needs to do a better job drafting.  You need to move them to get whatever you can, while other teams are still overvaluing them!"  

And so on.  

The thing about this is, both sides are right.  The Cards have hurt the system by moving guys, and their drafts have been atrocious.  We see an old, slow team on the field, and little help forthcoming.  So I thought it would be instructive to take a look at how the Cards came to be just where they are, in terms of the farm system.  So, I would like to take a look at the last few drafts.  I'm going to do the last three in depth only, as those are the ones that Luhnow has been in charge of.  (This also gives us a nice referendum to decide what kind of job he's really doing, since the organisation is busily placing most of it's eggs in his basket.)  I'll do it one at a time, as I think all three would be far too unwieldy for one post.  I'll start with Luhnow's first draft, that of 2005.  And so, without further ado...

 

Star-divide

First off, a little background on the previous two drafts.  The two drafts leading in to the overhaul of the scouting department are very interesting, to say the least.  In the 2003 draft, the Cardinals actually did a pretty nice job.  They selected Daric Barton in the first round, and, while he's proven a lot of skeptics right, who said he wouldn't be able to stick defensively anywhere but first, man can the kid hit.  He was part of the Mark Mulder deal, and made his ML debut this past season.  By all accounts, he should be a tremendous offensive player for quite a while.  The Cardinals also selected Anthony Reyes late, in the 16th round, and watched him blossom into a potential top of the rotation starter.  Not a bad sleeper pick.  (Now, all that's happened recently changes how we view Anthony, but it was still a great draft pick.)  What is really amazing about the 2003 draft, though, is the trio of HS pitchers they took in later rounds.  The Cardinals drafted Max Scherzer, Brett Sinkbeil, and Ian Kennedy in the draft that year.  Scherzer was in the 14th round, I believe, and the other two were in the 30s or higher, if I remember correctly.  The Cardinals did not sign any of them, and all three went on to be first round picks in 2006.  Chew on that for a moment.  The Cardinals chose three pitchers, all in one draft, that ended up being first round talents after three years in college.  Obviously, somebody in the scouting department was doing their job; and someone on the financial side made some poor decisions.  Sinkbeil is now the #2 prospect in the Marlins organisation, Scherzer is a top ten prospect for the DBacks, and Kennedy made his major league debut last season for the Yankees.  You can say he's Reyes with less stuff, but he still managed to get to the big leagues in less than a year and a half.  Just the thought of all three of those pitchers, drafted by the same team, and all allowed to walk, just absolutely drives me nuts.  

2004, of course, will live forever in draft infamy; at least, among Cardinal fans.  You probably know the story by now:  Luhnow had just taken over the scouting department, the team didn't even have any crosscheckers, and the assistant GM was running the show.  (yes, the same asst. GM who was just named the General Manager.  Kind of black mark for old Mo.)  The Cards were picking at 19, and they had their eye on Josh Fields, a collegiate third baseman.  The White Sox took Fields at 18, surprising the Cardinals.  Left scrambling, Mozeliak and crew asked Luhnow's group for a pick.  They crunched a few numbers, checked a couple of scouting reports, and came back with their choice:  Philip Hughes.  Now, this is where the story gets a little confused, as there seems to be a lot of question as to who, exactly, passed down the next edict.  Said edict was to take a college player, a pitcher.  Again, reports vary as to who nixed the Hughes pick in favor of a collegian, but, regardless of who made the call, there it was.  The organisation didn't want to pick Hughes because he was a high schooler, and they wanted a safer pick.  Some more discussion ensued, this time with much less of a consensus being reached, and Chris Lambert was taken.  Chris Lambert's contribution to the organisation ultimately amounted to four months of Mike Maroth.  Again, take a second.  Instead of six years of Philip Hughes, the Cardianls ended up with four months of Mike Maroth.  That hurts.  Just to rub a bit more salt in the wound, here are a few other players who were still on the board when Lambert was taken:  

Glen Perkins, LHP, taken by Minnesota
Blake DeWitt, 3b, taken by Dodgers
Eric Hurley, RHP, taken by Rangers
Gio Gonzalez, LHP, taken by White Sox
Tyler Lumsden, LHP, taken by White Sox
Huston Street, RHP, taken by Oakland
Reid Brignac, SS, taken by Tampa Bay
Yovani Gallardo, RHP, taken by Milwaukee
Seth Smith, OF, taken by Colorado
Billy Buckner, RHP, taken by Kansas City
Curtis Thigpen, C, taken by Toronto

All of those players were taken after Lambert, and before the Cardinals' second pick; all of the players above are top ten prospects in their respective systems, or have graduated from prospect status.  The Cards' second pick was a first baseman from Miami Ohio college, Mike Ferris.  Ferris came out of nowhere his junior year to have one monster season.  There's a reason you haven't heard of him.  A couple of players who were still on the board, and reasonably close to where Ferris was picked:

Hunter Pence, OF, taken by Houston
Dustin Pedroia, SS, taken by Boston (moved to 2nd)
Kurt Suzuki, C, taken by Oakland.  
Gaby Hernandez, RHP, taken by the Metropolitans
Wade Davis, RHP, taken by Tampa Bay

I only included guys relatively close to where Ferris was picked, you can't say so and so was available when he wasn't picked until the 9th round; it's not fair to criticise a team for not reaching that badly.  

Out of the whole 2004 draft, there are only two players still around who look to contribute to the team in any meaningful way.  Mark Worrell, a sidearming righty reliever, could compete for a spot in middle relief as early as next season, (although they don't seem too high on him) and Jarret Hoffpauir.  Hoffpauir's name has been thrown around here a lot lately, you probably all know who he is.  That's really it.  Two players.  It will go down as one of the worst drafts ever, unless something truly unforeseen happens.  

So that was the situation when Luhnow officially took over the draft in 2005.  Over the previous year, he had rebuilt the scouting department, and he had a great situation to try out his ideas.  The Cards had a windfall in 05, after losing Mike Matheny, Edgar Renteria, Steve Kline, and Tony Womack to free agency.  The Cardinals had six picks in the first one hundred, with two first rounders, two supplemntal firsts, and two second round picks.  

Luhnow's first draft was an absolute doozy.  The Cardinals identified early on what they were looking for.  They wanted a left handed hitting, high school outfielder, preferable one who played center.  They pegged Jay Bruce, a high schooler from Texas, as the guy that they wanted.  He had all the tools they were looking for, and he was an absolute masher.  Unfortunately, the Cards first pick wasn't util 28, (the compensatory pick for Renteria, by the way) and they knew there was no way Bruce would last all the way there.  So, using his profile as a stepping off point, they searched and identified a similar player that they liked.  With their first pick of the 2005 draft, 28th overall, the St. Louis Cardinals picked Colby Rasmus.  Rasmus was very similar to Bruce, a high school outfielder from Alabama.  He had broken Bo Jackson's state high school home run record, played center field, and had very good speed.  He was a little rangier than Bruce, with a slightly leaner build.  A little smaller, maybe, but with a good frame all the same.  

Of course, with even just a couple of years' hindsight on this one, this was an absolutely stellar pick.  Of all the outfielders taken in that first round, (and there were some major ones) Rasmus, according to quite a few scouts, could end up being the best of them all.  He already looks as if he has the fewest real question marks in his game.  Cameron Maybin, the first outfielder taken, at 6th overall, and Justin Upton, first overall, taken as a shortstop but moved to the outfield, both have significant questions about their ability to hit for a high average, and their respective plate disciplines.  Bruce himself doesn't look as if he's going to be able to stay in center field.  He's slowed down considerable already, and as he continues to fill out, he probably won't have the range.  He'll make a fine right fielder, but corner spots just aren't as valuable as center.  Andrew McCutcheon, taken by the Pirates, has great range and is an outstanding hitter, but his arm is just adequate for center, and there are some questions about just how much power he'll end up hitting for.  With Rasmus, though, he appears to be capable of doing pretty much everything, and at a very high level.  

With their second pick, at #30, the Cards took Tyler Greene.  A shortstop out of Georgia Tech, Greene is what you call a "swing for the fences" kind of pick.  Although he was a collegian, he was very much a high risk, high reward sort of player.  Tremendous speed, (he's succeeded in something like 94% of his SB attempts as a pro) very good raw power, Greene is an absolute specimen of athletic prowess.  Unfortunately, things haven't worked out for Tyler.  He hasn't been able to adjust and hit for an average as a pro, which is somewhat surprising in light of the fact that he actually hit better in the Cape Cod League, (wood bats) and with Team USA, (ditto) than he did for the most part with metal in college.  Greene has shown that tantalizing speed/ power combo in pro ball, but hasn't made enough contact to take advantage of it.  

Now, just those first two picks say a lot about the direction the Cardinals took in the 2005 draft.  As has been postulated, here and elsewhere, those extra picks allowed the team to be aggressive with their early picks, rather than trying to hedge their bets with safer choices.  They had enough chances to get it right that they could go for the big payoff.  Both Rasmus and Greene were extremely high upside players with a good chance of flaming out; Greene due to his questionable track record, and Rasmus simply because prep picks are riskier by their nature; you have to project much more with a high school kid.  Greene hasn't worked out great, but it was still a good pick, I think.  If Greene could ever put it together, he could be, not just an everyday player, but a perennial allstar.  He's hurt now, and his chances of making it appear to be pretty slim.  But it was still a gutsy choice, taking the chance to acquire a potential cornerstone player.  

In the supplemental first, the Cardinals had two picks.  They used the first of them on Mark McCormick.  A right handed starter from Baylor, McCormick has a fastball in the upper 90s, and very little idea of where it's going.  I remember watching McCormick pitching in the CWS that year, and just absolutely flipping out over how good the kid's stuff was.  Unfortunately, things haven't fallen well for McCormick, either, and after seeing more of him, I don't think things are going to.  He seems to have a repertoire similar to Kerry Wood or A.J. Burnett, but also the same delivery flaw.  All of them seem to have poor timing in their motions, leading to them dragging their arms, or flying open with the front shoulder, etc.  All three seem to throw against their bodies, and all have had health problems to match.  McCormick had shoulder surgery last year, and has struggled coming back from it.  It's a shame, as he consistently puts up extremely low BAA numbers; his fastball alone is almost unhittable.  His chance of contributing anything at the major league level, though, looks to be pretty slim.  

With their next pick, at 46, I believe, the Cards took Tyler Herron, a right handed high school pitcher.  Herron was a shortstop for most of his high school playing career, only taking to the mound during his junior year.  He's been all the more impressive for that, moving steadily up through the minor league ranks.  He put up some very nice numbers at Quad Cities this year, with a 3.74 ERA, a 130/26 K/BB ratio, and 123 hits in 137 innings.  There's a litle debate about the overall quality of Herron's stuff; some reports have his fastball in the low 90s with good movement, others have it with good velocity but a little too straight.  His curve is a plus, and his changeup has developed into a pretty solid pitch.  What his ultimate ceiling is is still a little vague, as he's a long way from the majors, but the returns are more than encouraging so far.  

After Herron, things become a little diceier.  With the next two picks, both in the second round, the Cardinals took Josh Wilson, a high school righty, and Nick Webber, a college closer.  At the time, both were seen as maybe slight overdrafts, and two years on, it looks like that might be a pretty accurate assessment.  What's interesting here is that both pitchers were drafted primarily on the strength of their sinkers.  Webber dominated with just the one pitch in college, and Wilson had better command of his two seamer than any other pitcher in the draft.  However, there were significant questions about both of them otherwise.  Wilson is very small, (about 5'11) and had questionable mechanics.  Webber had virtually no complementary pitches.  Wilson ended up with shoulder surgery; at the moment, the team has no idea what they have with him.  The Cards tried to make Webber into a starter, both to aid in his development and to possibly increase his overall value.  He didn't take too very well to the conversion, and hasn't been effective even after moving back to the pen.  Unfortunately for the Cardinals, it appears now that they placed too much of an emphasis on each of these pitchers throwing one pitch, and not enough emphasis on the overall package.  

The 05 draft also produced a few other potential impact players.  Bryan Anderson, taken in the fourth round out of a California high school, is the top catching prospect in the Cards' system.  He compares pretty favorably to some of the best catchers in the game right now, according to many of the peak translation systems.  Anderson, whatever you may think about the Yadi vs. Bryan debate, projects to be an above average major league hitter.  The power that some had projected hasn't really shown up yet, but even without it, he's a big time prospect.  Also, remember that for all the talk of how young Rasmus was for AA, Anderson is a full five months younger, and played at the same level.  

Daryl Jones was taken in the 3rd round out of a Texas high school.  He's still an untamed bag of tools at this point, and he needs to start producing if he's going to make it.  His ceiling and athleticism, though, remain sky high, and his impact potential is tremendous.  

Mitchell Boggs, a right handed pitcher, was taken in the fifth round, from the University of Georgia.  He had an up and down college career, transferring back and forth between schools, playing baseball and football alternately.  One of the Cards' scouts saw something, though, and Boggs has taken off, big time.  He's probably the closest to being major league ready of any of the Cards' good pitching prospects, and there's at least some chance that we could see him at the big league level at some point in 2008.  

Both Nick Stavinoha, OF, and Trey Hearne, RHP, were taken in the later rounds of the 05 draft.  Neither one of them looks to be an impact big leaguer, but both could end up being bit players at some point.  Stavinoha is a John Gall type, and Hearne is pretty much the same player as Brad Thompson, without the animosity toward small canines.  Again, neither is going to be a big contributor, but the fact that each looks as if they could get a chance at even a cup of coffee has some value.  

Last, but certainly not least, is super sleeper Jaime Garcia.  He was taken in the 22nd round, nominally out of high school, although he had been drafted by the Orioles the year before, and had spent a season playing Mexican League ball.  Garcia is the consensus top pitching prospect in the system, a lefty with two plus pitches, a chance for a third, and top notch control.  He made it to AA in his second full season, before being shut down with elbow issues.  Not bad for a 22nd round afterthought.  If Garcia's elbow is healthy, there's a chance we could see him here this season at some point also.  

Overall, that's two, possibly three, potential star players, (Rasmus, Anderson, Garcia) two potential middle rotation guys, (Boggs and Herron) a few bench/ bit players (Stavy and Hearne) and some project players with pretty good potential payoffs.  For the first draft by a new director, you would have to call it a wild success.  So far, it's the most successful draft of Luhnow's tenure, although both of the drafts since are also pretty promising.

What we can also see here are some definite tendencies.  There is a preference for college players, at least in terms of quantity, (which is pretty common with the stathead types; it's tough to do stat analyses with a limited amount of stats) a preference for groundball pitchers, (in line with the rest of the organisation) and a willingness to take some risks, especially if there are enough picks in place to act as a buffer if some of the picks don't pan out.  Luhnow and team did a nice job of identifying some intriguing players in rounds after the first couple.  They had better success, overall, with risky high school picks than risky college picks.  Also, quite significantly, we can see a willingness to overdraft in order to get a player that they believe in.  Particularly when a player fits a certain profile, there was a tendence to overreach, rather than take a chance on a particular player not being there later.  These are the themes that we can see running throughout the picks Luhnow has made in subsequent drafts, both for good and for ill.  

Overall, Luhnow's first draft was excellent.  When you compare it to the 2004 draft, which is one of the biggest reason the Cardinals have virtually no young players ready to step up right now, it's absolutely impossible to quantify just how much better it really was.  It was an auspicious start to the process of turning around one of the worst farm systems in baseball, and, for the most part, it's carried forward.  

I'll do the 2006 draft next time; I'll also try to shorten it up a little bit.  I think it's important that we understand how things got to where they are, if we're to have any sort of intelligent opinion as to the proper way to move forward.  I'll see you all later.  

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I realize...
most comments to this story (a good one by the way) will be in reference to the players. However, I would like to shed light on one idea which doesn't appear very often.

Two sides were presented - 1) a poor farm exists because we trade away prospects too quickly; and 2) a poor farm exists because we don't draft well. As I see it, a third side exists - the Cardinals have been in contention for so long, we've really never been "sellers" at the trading deadline. Think of it, are we ever dumping players on a short contract in front of July 31st (like the Royals, Pirates, Rays, etc.) in order to acquire prospects from contenders looking to 'win now'? When the club has been one of the teams in 'win now' mode for so many years, they've been missing out on that other avenue with which many clubs are able to build their farm with.

by jomfa on Nov 14, 2007 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

Good idea...
...and I certainly see how your idea might apply to Marlins, Diamondbacks, etc....

But the Yankees have been sellers?  Sitting there with Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain?

by sdrone on Nov 14, 2007 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

in a way, yes
Ian Kennedy was drafted in '06 using the draft pick (#21) that the Phillies gave away in exchange for 'buying' Tom Gordon, and Hughes came from the Astros for Pettitte (pick #23 in '04).  If either of those guys had been signed by teams with protected first-round picks, like MIL (suppan) or SFG (morris) then yes, they would be in as bad shape as us.  They did do a good job picking Joba with their #41 pick in '06, but remember, 29 other teams passed on him as well in the first round.  

We've had the bad luck - and I'm not sure if luck is the right term- that during our little attempt at an NL dynasty, the teams who have signed our departing type A free agents (morris, renteria, Suppan, grudz) were either very good (boston '04), giving us glorious pick #28 (which we used well for rasmus + mccormick) or bad enough that the pick we got in exchange for losing a FA was supplemental-only (06 MIL, SFG, KCR, 06 CHI, 04 DET).  As TRB will undoubtedly do a great job of discussing in his next article, we've actually used some of those pretty well (Perez, Herron, etc) and of course we've royally blown some.  

We've also had terrible luck with our players.  We had an ace starting pitcher randomly die, we had an ace starting pitcher turn into an outfielder, we let ace reliever Al Reyes walk without offering arbitration (to tampa bay!) because we didn't want to pay him to be on the DL for a year, etc.   We also made a bad choice by not offering to Woody Williams and Weaver.  At least a couple of those guys should have been either turned into prospects via departing FA's or trades.

by SleepyCA on Nov 14, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

yup
I agree with your third side opinion. I'd also add that the Cards also traded away many of their up and coming prospects to acquire the players on those winning Cards teams that weren't "selling". On the other hand, what did we really give up? Most of the prospects we traded away to fill needs didn't amount to much. The only trade that comes to mind right now is the Mulder trade. Jocketty wasn't on the losing side too often as far as "are the guys we are giving up going to become All Stars?" Basically one of the major goals for the farm system seemed to be to produce prospects that looked good early then did nothing later in their careers for the other team. =-)

by HugeCardsFan on Nov 14, 2007 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

third side
I guess it just that we were in contention all these years which meant we weren't selling Edmonds or Williams or Morris or any other veteran to some other team in contention in order to acquire their prospects. Not only have we had some drain on the system for trades we made for MLB experienced players, but we haven't infused the farm beyond the draft, adding to the problem.

Up here in Omaha, we hear about the KC Royals and there appear to have been years where they would sign a free agent to a 1 or 2-year contract only to trade them away for prospects after 3 months.

It's not that I think it's a problem we were in contention all these years (obviously any fan would desire a winning team over a loser), but I do think our farm has suffered additionally because the ONLY influx of talent it's seen has been from the draft and not via trade. The Cardinals haven't seen it in quite some time, but many teams also acquire talent for the farm via trade.

It would be an interesting analysis to see how many other teams have traded to acquire prospects and as a result how high of a rating their farm has. Getting talent beyond the draft has to be a tactic which is significant.

by jomfa on Nov 14, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Great analysis red baron
but man, the more I read about drafts, the more luck and hocus pocus I see.  The Kennedy and Hughes stories are fascinating.

by sdrone on Nov 14, 2007 10:52 AM EST reply actions  

Hell of an article here
I have to say, I have been to multiple SB Nation blogs of both the baseball and football variety and NONE of them are even close to providing the type of analysis and insight this forum gives.

Keep up the good work everybody.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Nov 14, 2007 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

well
the info on missing hughes/kennedy, etc was all reported in the STL Dispatch a few weeks ago.
Acquire AJ Burnett!

by TheFranchise9 on Nov 14, 2007 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

h & k
hughes was a blunder.  the scouts wanted him and he signed for less than lambert.  lambert was a college guy, but as i recall didnt really fit the profile of the typical polished college pitcher.  he was considered more of a project than other college guys.

missing out on kennedy isnt really anything unusual.  that sort of thing happens all the time.  he was considered about the #30 high school player (probably around 2nd-3rd round talent) so it wasnt any particular genius that lead the cardinals to draft him around 30th round.  it was the 'take a chance on a talented player who has a perceived strong commitment to a college and see if you can convince him to sign' type of pick.

by dmb60614 on Nov 14, 2007 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Great posting red
what is infuriating is that if the Cardinals had not been cheap, we'd have 2 of the Yankees 3 top prospects (considered part of the trinity needed to get Santana).
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

yeah
my question is, who was being cheap there; dewitt? walt? mo? a combo?

plus, who was actually in charge of the 03 draft? and how do you think those pitchers would have progressed straight from high school?

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 14, 2007 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Great Post
I have always wondered what the Cards drafts would look like if they just drafted the consensus best available talent at each spot (signability be damned - call it the Tigers approach).  If anyone ever wants to take a stab at that I would be interested...

As for the 2003 guys who got away and the 2004 first pick.  Whewwww that hurt.  If the Cards don't do much for the next five-ten years we will look back at that cheapness and cringe.  

Few minor quibbles, in my eyes Greene's upside is lower, but his likelihood of reaching it higher (I see his ceiling as a Mark Loretta super sub, which has significant value in my eyes), I still am firmly on the Nick Webber bandwagon, there is PLENTY of room if anyone wants on!  I see 08 as a make or break year for McCormick...

Overall, very nice post

by Lawless on Nov 14, 2007 11:23 AM EST reply actions  

high school vs college
What is the liklihood of 'success' for high school draftees vs college? I know that success can be a little tricky to define, but anyone seen this data out there?  

The Cards had a chance to draft three future #1s out of high school and missed - all of whom were taken in late rounds.  This seems like a great strategy - low round picks tend to be bit players (Pujols aside) - if you can take a risk for cheap (at least in the draft sense of the word) - why waste it on an low up-side college player?

This draft stuff is fascinating - great post.

by cdb on Nov 14, 2007 11:43 AM EST reply actions  

Theory
Obviously none of us work inside but we can kind of guess by looking at draft picks to see the Cards strategy.

My opinion is the Cards need to take a shot at HS pitchers in the first round the next couple years.  If a kid starts pitching pro ball at age 18 he is at such an advantage.  He is seeing better competition than college, he is learing to pitch to players using wood bats unlike college adn he can pitch in the minors for 5 whole years and still be only 23 yr old.  If you draft a college pitcher and he pitches for 3 yr in the minors he is 24.  It is so much better to draft a high ceiling HS pitcher early.  Look at Porcello.  Why not take a shot at him and wait to draft Kozma.  I am for drafting for high potential with a first pick.  A guy like Kozma projects to be a Mark Loretta type based on what I see.  It is great he could make the show but come on you can get Mark Loretta in FA for not much $$$.  Why draft Mark Loretta?  You want to draft Jake Peavy.  Jake Peavy cost way more in talent or $$ to get.  I say never take safe picks early.  Take safe picks later.  Safe picks are cheap.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 14, 2007 11:46 AM EST reply actions  

I just watched the Team USA vs TPE
game that Team USA won 10-7 and I'm sold, Colby Rasmus needs to be our starting CF next year and batting leadoff.

Rasmus game went as so:

2-4  2 BB 2 2Bs 1 Run

Oh, and he stole 3rd base.  All hail our new leadoff hitter.

BTW, the Dodgers should just give us Andy Laroche.  Just hand him over to us.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

Hmm
Is there a way to watch that on the web somewhere then?  Does it cost?

by saladdays on Nov 14, 2007 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

It's free
and it is here:

http://stadeo.tv/baseball_world_cup_2007/games/

I was pleasently suprised by Rasmus being a linedrive hitter with power to all fields.  His 2nd double was a ball slapped just over the 3B head that got to the wall on 2 hops.  That's Pujols like power.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 14, 2007 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Hardcore
I spent 2 weeks in the Ozarks this summer with some family and caught two different series at Springfield.  I also live in Des Moines where the AAA affliate for the Cubs is located so I've seen plenty of Felix Pie over the last couple of seasons.

Bottom line:

Rasmus can flat out RAKE.  I think we're going to see it at Memphis early in the season -- he has stellar plate discipline for a guy his age, doesn't swing and miss much (in my opinion this is what to look for in a young hitter), and has power from gap to gap.  He also gets good jumps on balls in center and has that keen awareness on the basepaths that you find in good basestealers.  I don't know if he's going to hit a lot of homers at the big league level and he seemed to struggle against situational lefties a bit in the six games that I saw, but overall I was very impressed and do not want to see him traded.  

I think he's going to be a better hitter than Pie at the big league level because Pie seems to try and Jeter (read: inside-out the ball to the opposite field) to much on pitches on the inner half.  That doesn't bode well for him as a power hitter in the big leagues.  He also takes a ton of bad swings against pitchers with good breaking stuff; I think this is partly due to his age and not having seen good breaking balls before, but Rasmus doesn't seem to have these issues.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 14, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Pie? Felix Pie?
I hope to god you're talking about another Pie.  'cause if you're comparing him to Felix, you're REALLY bringing me down.

by sdrone on Nov 14, 2007 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Felix Pie had a terrific season in AAA this year
at age 22, and is universally praised for his tools.  

Comparing Rasmus to him, especially favorably, is nothing to get bummed out about.  Especially when the comparison is that he a more selective hitter, with more legit power.

Pie and Rasmus had very similar numbers as 20-yr-olds in AA.  Pie's slugging % was actually a tick higher.

by siddfynch on Nov 14, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

animosity toward small canines?
I've never heard of that from Brad Thompson. What's the backstory?

Great article. I used to be a little bored by draft talk, even prospect talk, simply because I've never seen those guys play yet, but you made it a very lively, interesting read. I'm looking forward to tracking future drafts with the VEB group.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 14, 2007 11:56 AM EST reply actions  

Puppy Kicker
Thompson was once quote after a bad start as something similar to "I just want to go kick a puppy"

by StLHugo on Nov 14, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

actualy he said this
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 15, 2007 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Very nice piece, and another topic suggestion
First, nice piece. I'm looking forward to parts 2 and 3.

Second, if you want to generate conversation, how about this as a topic: should the Cardinals consider trading Pujols? I love Albert, and I have no desire to trade him, but I think it is interesting to think about, in that the team probably isn't going anywhere soon and he has immense trade value. Could we consider trading him? Is there a package of players that would be worth it?

by tarakas on Nov 14, 2007 11:56 AM EST reply actions  

Red, fantastic work
What I take away from this work is this: The reason why the cupboard is bare is the bad draft choices or not signing the good ones.

 Certainly trading Polonco for Rolen, Chrisp for Finley, or Naverson for Walker didn't do it.
The Mulder trade would have been less costly if Hughes was picked and Ian Kennedy signed.

 I do have a serious question about two AAA guys. Is Chris Perez the closer of the future? And Does Tagg Bozied have any value for a trade, and/or can he be converted to the OF?

by nybirdfan on Nov 14, 2007 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

perez is fat
I couldn't believe how fat he is when I started watching the team USA games.  He's got some crazy movement on his pitches though- some move so much, at such a crazy angle, that you can't tell if they were strikes or not from watching on video.  It seems equally difficult for some minor league umpires to judge them...

Tagg is a minor league free agent; he can go wherever he wants, so he has zero trade value right now.  He played 60 games in the OF for the mets AAA club in '06.

Adding one more, non-draft-related reason to the "cupboard is bare" theme:  WJ shut down the Latin American recruiting program right about the time that other teams were reaping their greatest profits from it.

by SleepyCA on Nov 14, 2007 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post, and one other thought
RB, that was a great summary.  No need to shorten the future ones!

One thing that I have been thinking about is a 3rd (or 4th) explanation for "poor" drafts, and thats the we simply do a poor job with the development of certain types of players.  Perhaps Greene was a fine pick, we have just done a poor job teaching him to control the strike zone and some of the other fine points of hitting (opposite field, etc.).  There are some teams that seem to consistently find gems, sometimes right in their own backyard - e.g., the Atlanta Braves seem to have a gold mine of prospects in the humble state of Georgia alone.  Are they better evaluators of talent, or just do a better job developing them?

The other thing the Cards seem to come up short in developing is hard throwing pitchers with little command.  We really beat the odds in getting some of the nibbler types up to the bigs (Bud, Jimenez, Thompson, Simontacchi, etc.), but seem to whiff an awful lot with the guys that need to harness top-shelf stuff.

It's hard to tease out the difference between bad choice vs. bad development, but sometimes a test piece will come along.  It will be interesting to see what Chris Lambert does in the DET system - almost the perfect system to send him to as an experiment, since they are almost the opposite in terms of pitcher drafting and development, and are starting with a product that we decided we can't develop.

by siddfynch on Nov 14, 2007 12:22 PM EST reply actions  

Win Now Fan
While I always want the Redbirds to win, I understand that there is a penalty/price to pay by signing overpriced free agents. There's a fine balance between the amount of highly paid veterans and and rookies on the roster to make it both successful and profitable for the team.

I just get tired of the same ole song and dance by Dewitt. "We tried to sign him but we don't have that kind of money". They bought the team in 1995 for 150 million and is worth over 460 million today.  

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_St-Louis-Cardinals_333240.html  

 

by JShell73 on Nov 14, 2007 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

He never says that.
Ever.

He says things like, "the bidding for player x was more than we thought was a fair price", or "the money was more than we allocated for that position".

And almost every issue, he was correct.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 14, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

He'd also need to sell
the team to use the profit you're talking about.

by sdrone on Nov 14, 2007 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Hearne?
Good analysis.  The only thing that confuses me is your love for Trey Hearne.  What makes you think this  guy will even see AA?   He stunk this year and I don't see him with the stuff to overcome whatever his problem was.

by cariocacardinal on Nov 14, 2007 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

Hearne
Hearne was victimized by an unusually high BABIP this year.

by indakind on Nov 14, 2007 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Fat pitches = high BABIP
That happens when you are a control pitcher who loses your control.    

by cariocacardinal on Nov 14, 2007 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

One thing on the 2007 draft that still bothers me
It's a small issue, really, but why would the Cardinals select Kyle Russell (a tough sign) with their 4th round pick rather than their 3rd round pick.  The reason I ask this is because if a team doesn't sign their 3rd round (or earlier) selection, they get compensated with an equal pick in the next years draft.  So why take a guy like Daniel Descalso in the 3rd round (most pundits had him going in the 9th, 10th or later) and Kyle Russell in the 4th round?  Why didn't they switch those two picks?  It could have played out the same as it has, but now we'd have an extra 3rd round pick in the 2008 draft for not signing Russell in the 3rd round.

by michajo on Nov 14, 2007 12:37 PM EST reply actions  

"on the radar" from '05
Kenny Maiques is another  '05 draftee. He dropped to Round 37, perhaps because of injury.

He had TJ surgery, and got off to a slow start in the organization.  But now he's "on the radar" screen again.  He could be a possible closer (See Quad Cities stats) or could be used as a middle reliever.

At the time of the draft, it was said that he had two above-average pitches: a 91-94 mph FB that touched 96 and a power slider.  

 

by ArRedbird on Nov 14, 2007 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

Damnit.
Maiques is actually one of my favourite guys, (reminds me a little bit of Roy Oswalt, I said a little) and I just totally forgot to put him in here.  
You bring home the turkey and I'll bring home the bacon.

by the red baron on Nov 15, 2007 7:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Mike Ferris is no Hunter Pence
But I saw him have a few nice games last season in AA. Watching him play 3 or 4 games isn't a great indicator, i suppose, but he seemed like a decent player to me. No, I don't think he'll replace Pujols any time soon, but he could come in handy as an injury replacement or have some trade value in the next year or two.
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Nov 14, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

Nice work,
red baron.  The history lesson on recent drafts helps paint the picture of where we were and where we need to go from here.  I look forward to Parts II & III.  No need to condense them, it was entertaining reading and very enlightening.  

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 14, 2007 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

Very Interesting
post, RB. The most concise introduction to what's been going on in this section of Cardinal Land I've read yet. And it gives me much more confidence that Luhnow is something more than a wedge between the old ways and the new. At least I now have a base from which to discuss whether or not he's had some success in what he's supposed to be doing--and I'm thrilled to see that it looks like he has. Thanks. I look forward to the next installment.

by rockin redbird on Nov 14, 2007 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

crawford to cubbies shot down
on mlbtraderumors...www.mlbtradrumors.com...
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 14, 2007 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

Another pick that got away in 2003
Don't forget about Kevin Mulvey who was the Cards' 34th round pick in 2003.  

by Silent George on Nov 14, 2007 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

Mitch Canham in 2006
41st round in 2006, but not signed.

1st round in 2007.

by siddfynch on Nov 14, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Mulvey
I forgot all about him.  Wow, that would have been a hell of a draft if they had signed all the guys they had picked.  

Trust me, I'll rail a bit about not signing Canham next time.  

You bring home the turkey and I'll bring home the bacon.

by the red baron on Nov 15, 2007 7:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Silent George
You're the one who got my favorite handle! Dang it!

Anyway, here's to the coolest Cardinal since Gibson, George Hendrick.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 15, 2007 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Part of the problem is not drafting highly enough
I enjoyed the discussion of the players in the pipeline.

However, part of the draft "problem" has been the Cardinals' success.

Studies have shown the top value in the draft is in the top 10 picks. If you have a good record, you don't draft highly.

As to the Yankees first round picks, they have had Hughes (high schooler) in 2004 and Kennedy/Chamberlain (both college) in 2006--so two of the three guys have been college guys. The Yankee's picks have been more often than not college players, so their pick of Hughes in 2004 was out of their normal practice.

Their prior #1 pick that had any impact was Milton in 1996, and before that Jeter in 1992. So while the Yankees have been successful lately, they had a looong dry spell. They had the same issue--drafting too high to get the blue chip prospects.

So I wouldn't read too much in the much publicized Yankee draft choices--it could have just been getting lucky after years of not much success.

If you look at the first round of the 2004 draft, of the top 18 picks, 8 have made it to the majors as of the end of 2007. From picks 19 (where the Cards picked) to 41 (end of the round), there have been 7 more. For the first round, 15 of 41--or 37% have played in the majors.

From rounds 2 to 10, there were 270 picks. Of these, 22 have made the majors, or roughly 8% of the picks. A few of these players have had more than a cup of coffee at this point.

So at this point, 30 of 311 drafted in the top ten rounds, or an average of 1 per team, have made it to the majors. That means in the grand scheme, on average, the Cards are short one ML player, from the 2004 draft.

The short answer is, that a lot of teams have issues drafting. It's also easy to assume other teams have done better consistently. And the answer is, generally, no they haven't.

The reason everyone is salivating over the pitching free agents is because other teams have not developed their own pitchers, either.

It may turn out the Cards 2004 draft was terrible. It may also turn out the 2004 draft class as a whole was a small one. Only time will tell on both scores.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Nov 14, 2007 3:20 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry, can't add
Edit to the post above: There have been 37 players of the 311, or a little more than one per team.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Nov 14, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't buy the excuse
that these poor Cardinal drafts have been mainly a result of their lowly drafting position.  The Braves have consistently drafted below the Cardinals (14 consecutive division titles will do that to you) and have just as consistently had a far better farm system.  Tampa Bay gets nothing but top draft choices every year, and every year they continue to stink.  There is no substitute for smart drafting and smart development of the talent acquired.  The Cardinals have been lacking in both of these areas for a long time.

by MikeG on Nov 14, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

nail on the head
You hit the nail on the head with that post.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 14, 2007 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

important
some of the most important people in an organiztion are unknow.

If I were a MLB team I would send a spy to go see how Atlanta does it.  They have a formula that works and just churns out top talent.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 14, 2007 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't know about Upton
"and Justin Upton, first overall, taken as a shortstop but moved to the outfield, both have significant questions about their ability to hit for a high average, and their respective plate disciplines."

In the minors, Upton hit .319 with a 56:79 BB:K good for a .419 OBP.

Rasmus hit .275 with a 70:108 BB:K with a .381 OBP.

Upton struggled in the big leagues as a 19 year old, oh no.  Although he didn't show it this year stealing the bases, he does have legit game changing speed having seen him play in person.  I'd trade Rasmus for Upton in a heartbeat.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 14, 2007 3:23 PM EST reply actions  

single season
that is limited to Upton's 2007 only, which while good to look at and does show his promise it isn't the entire story

In the minors overall:

Upton: .289/.375/.478 108:175 (.62)BB/K 823AB
Rasmus: .285/.371/.510 147:271 (.54)BB/K 1184AB

Stats show similar rates, with Upton actually having a slight edge in BB rate and BA while Rasmus has the slugging advantage.  I don't think I would trade either straight up for the other.

by StLHugo on Nov 14, 2007 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I like that line
"I don't think I would trade either straight up for the other."

by sdrone on Nov 14, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks
Really to me it is a would you trade Pujols for ARod straight up?  Some would some wouldn't.  In my case both are too similar you don't gain anything by having one over the other (clubhouse presence aside).  Rasmus and Upton are just too similar to me as offensive players at this point.  Just not smart to trade one gamble for another when both seem to have equal risk.

by StLHugo on Nov 14, 2007 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

And...
Upton was widely thought to be taking it easy his first year in Low-A.  This isn't my opinion, it's that of pretty much every scout who saw him.  It would be of concern...without '07's re-emergence.  

He's widely considered to have better tools.  He had better numbers in '07.  He's younger and better.  This isn't a knock on Rasmus, Upton just has more potential.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 15, 2007 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Mike Maroth
Maroth updated his blog around halloween, I hadn't noticed until now but it is quite an interesting read: http://www.marothbaseball.com/2007_10_01_archive.asp

Maroth is a guy that I really want us to sign to a minor league contract if we can.  He can be much better then he was this year and I really want to see him succeed.  We can't count on him for the big league club but I think having him in Memphis wouldn't hurt at all.  Also I would find it funny to hear the "Promote Maroth!" cheers mid season if he was doing good.  Anyway I wish him the best.

by StLHugo on Nov 14, 2007 4:22 PM EST reply actions  

MM
is a classy guy and it was nice to see that he didn't resent being released by the Cards.  He knew he didn't get the job done this year.  I wish him only the best in his future, wherever that may be.  

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 14, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone will sign him
For a mil or two, perhaps to an incentive deal.  Per the Rotoworld sidebar the Marlins are interested in him.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 14, 2007 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

OUTSTANDING post, trb
Please don't abbreviate your next two draft reviews unless it's for YOUR sake.  I assure you WE will enjoy reading another such treatment.  I thoroughly enjoyed learning all of the details concerning the 2005 (and prior) draft, and would very much like to have the same level of detail for the others, if its available.  It was both an extremely educational read as well as an entertaining one.

Bravo to you, sir!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Nov 14, 2007 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

completely agreed
thank you, sir
"bury the dead, feed the survivors and rebuild the city" (marques do pombal, 1777)

by Johnny64 on Nov 14, 2007 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

ditto
long in-depth reports are welcomed...school and work be damned

by HoosierCardFan on Nov 15, 2007 2:46 AM EST up reply actions  

comp picks
It was a good first year to be head of player development as we had all those picks in the top 100. that said, it still looks WAY better than 04, but obviously better than 06 too because of the picks.
Erik Bedard would look good in red

by stlknows on Nov 14, 2007 6:53 PM EST reply actions  

Great Stuff RB
If you make the follow-ons shorter, we'll have to suppose there was less value.

Is there anywhere a statistical ranking of farm systems with something as simple as MLB PA's or IP's per draft class per team?

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 14, 2007 7:20 PM EST reply actions  

Pujols
To the guy who mentioned possibly trading Pujols I'd say that is insane. A team like the Cardinals who, due to poor opponents and a high payroll, are consistently in a position to compete for a division title, should never trade away a guy who's widely regarded as one of the top 3 players in baseball.

The only way I'd trade Pujols is if the Dodgers offered Billingsly, LaRoche, Loney, Kemp, and Kershaw.

by gnick55 on Nov 14, 2007 10:05 PM EST reply actions  

nice job red
keep the good posts coming
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 15, 2007 12:08 AM EST reply actions  

kudos
terrific, thought-provoking post red baron. Can't wait to see the next installments.

by DCRedbird on Nov 15, 2007 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

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