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Around SBN: Raiders' GM Begins The Purge

Market Ineffeciency?

Dear Diary, and good morning

i'm going to paint with broad strokes quickly to sell an idea and hear feedback from the knowledgeable VEB community.  Both jake peavy and johan santana could be shopped by their teams this winter.  Surprising, the expected return in players for both pitchers will be in the same general level of talent.  That surprises me because peavy has two years left on his contract while santana is in his walk year.  

so i begin to wonder what the difference between the two pitchers in actual wins would be.  using 2007 win shares percentage as a guide, their difference is negligible. Is it possible the idea that Santana is the greatest pitcher in the game adds another level of value on the free agent or trade market. will A-rod command his large contract because of the wins he brings to a team, or rather will the idea that he is the greatest player in the game command it.  

Do teams still over value players who are considered best at their position, or even players who have the best tools.  Does the idea carl crawford can steal bases so efficiently make him more of a commodity than he actually is?  

which brings me to the cardinals and yadier molina.  Molina has quickly attained the reputation that he is the premier defensive catcher in the game, and with good reason. nobody is denying that he is a great player, but is it possible that he is overrated? I took a look at win shares to get some tangible evidence to work with. the hard ball times has molina accountable for 11 win shares on the season, 7.5 are attributed to his fielding. That's not prorated, so we have to take into account the time he missed. So instead I'll use Win share percentage, .518.

where he falls in WSP for 2007

J Mauer        .922
J Posada      .853
C Snyder     .795
R Castro      .683
R Hernandez .546
Y. Molina      .518
G Zaun        .439
R Paulino     .398

obviously this is not an all inclusive list, but the 7.5 win shares through defense molina brought last season did not equate to him being an extremely valuable player in terms of win shares.  another thing that stands out to me is free agent R. Castro having a higher WSP than molina. It's a small sample size, and Castro is a borderline starting catcher. But the idea is, the win shares molina has can be overcome with a  relatively inexpensive catcher with marginal tools across the board.

 still with me?  If molina is only worth .518 WSP, and the market values him higher than his actual worth in wins, it's feasible that he could be replaced with little win cost behind the plate with a free agent pick up such as Castro. It's not trying to upgrade the catcher position, it's turning molina into player responsible for more wins because the market could overvalue his particular tool set.

Lets me use this in practice, theoretically of course. The Marlins, angels, mets and yankees Really want a defensive catcher. They want the best one in the game, so naturally, they turn to Molina. marlins win by trading J. hermida, cardinals in turn sign M Barrett, Castro or loduca and trade Duncan for pitching. The cardinals now have a better outfield, a starting pitcher or two of some caliber, and have lost only one or two win shares behind the plate, while adding app. 7 million in payroll.

Broad stroaks, Intentionally leaving out things like projection, I'm relying heavily on one Stat(never a good thing)could just be over estimating Molina's value on the trade market, and perhaps most importantly, completely underestimating the personal relationship molina has with his teammates and managers or his "intangibles".

in my constant attempt to think of ways to outsmart the market, I wonder if molina is worth more to the cardinals on or off the team?

finally, i'm curious as to what tools or skills readers think teams overvalue or undervalue in the current market.

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I'm not an expert of sabermetric stats...

... but I would trust your list only if the win shares stat is totally indipendent from the team. Plus you have to add the value of running game prevention that Molina is carrying, that I can bet is not quantified.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Nov 12, 2007 7:10 AM EST reply actions  

I did a little research...

... and definetly win shares stat is not the correct one, because is linked to the wins of the team. I believe that you should go to something like VORP adjusted per defensive contribution (and, for Yadi, this would imply also to quantify the reduction of runnning game he induces).

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Nov 12, 2007 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Win shares
per hardball times, "Win Shares. Invented by Bill James. Win Shares is a very complicated statistic that takes all the contributions a player makes toward his team's wins and distills them into a single number that represents the number of wins contributed to the team, times three. if a player plays for a team that happens to win a lot of games, he generally won't get credit for more Win Shares than if he had played for a lousy team. Win Shares is fair to all players, in that sense."

No stat is a perfect way to judge all attributes a player brings, but win shares does its best to take all contributions from a player and compare them on a neutral plane.  

You're right about the defensive win shares not being accurately portrayed because of its link to total win shares.  I went back to the original formula to try and calculate the difference, and then realize I took the easiest math courses in college for a reason.   At least all of the catchers are on a level playing field in regards to defensive contributions in this stat

by Dave Barry on Nov 12, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

You may be on to something
but the truth is, LaDunc love the guy and he doesn't make much money right now. The only value he has is in a trade scenario, and that would mean the Cards would have to WANT to trade him.

There was a thread about Molina's real worth a few weeks back; I wonder if someone has time to find it and link to it - there was pretty good content there.

by silent_bob on Nov 12, 2007 8:04 AM EST reply actions  

Positional inefficencies
I posted something similar in a thread last week.  I was thinking that since the Yankees and Red Sox in the past have driven much of the free agent market and recently have started to replinish their talent base from within that positions that they are no longer pursuing on the free agent market may become undervalued--Perhaps 2ndbase.  If both of these teams are using below market cost 2nd basemen (cairo, pedroia) them the average cost of the position over the entire league would decrease.

The thought being that if you have talent at a position that they are pursuing on the open market you may want to investigate trading that position player because their value may be skewed.  Take Posada, if he gets a large contract extension from the yankees then yadi's value on the market may increase because the average cost of the position over the league would be increasing.  

This is just a train of thought and would have to factor in a lot more teams for the idea to work, but I think there is something here in analyzing the average cost of a player per position to see market fluctations...

by BigJawnMize on Nov 12, 2007 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

1st base Defense
I think defense at 1st is undervalued.  In fact I think the defensive spectrum undervalues the importance of 1st basemen's defense compared to a corner OFer.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 12, 2007 10:20 AM EST reply actions  

We can't really take advantage of that one haha
Lest you plan on trading the Puj since he's the best defensive/offensive 1B there is.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2007 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Michael Barrett
hahahah.   He'd certainly make you miss Yadi.

by sdrone on Nov 12, 2007 11:29 AM EST reply actions  

Trading Yadi
really doesn't make that much sense.  Charles Johnson was a defensive stud catcher for much of the 1990's but never brought much in terms of trades and he was quite a bit better at the plate than Yadi is.

I believe that I probably overvalue his defense to a certain extent simply because he keeps the opposing teams running game in check and limits the amount of extended leads at first base, therefore discouraging a lot of players from going first to third on a single.  Things like that just don't show up in the stat book and are immeasurable qualities to have in a catcher.  He also calls and excellent game and hasn't been hurt for any significant time.

You also can't sabermetrically quantify his effect in the clubhouse, which is ample according to most inside reports.

I don't see the Cards getting a lot of value for him and he's a much better backstop than anyone on your list.  I'd much rather see them keep Yadi and spend some money upgrading at SS and on the back end of the rotation.  If Anderson is the Cards future at C than trading Yadi may be something to look at after the '08 or '09 seasons when Anderson would likely be ready to step in and play.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 12, 2007 12:49 PM EST reply actions  

forgot to add
I don't like win-shares for a catcher who hasn't played a full season.  It's much more rigorous a position than any other on the field, and most catchers who haven't played a full season usually see their numbers drop a tad just because of the workload.  This may explain why Castro rates so high on this list -- he has yet to play 125+ games behind the plate.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 12, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

They don't show up
on a box score, but we can do our best to quantify it.

This is from Houstoncardinal in a thread discussing the merits of anderson v molina

"Last year the average NL catcher had .74 SB attempts per game against.  Molina's was .48.  So having Molina behind the plate saved the Cards an average of .26 SBA/game.  Over the last 3 seasons, Molina has averaged 111 games/year so, by multiplying .26 * 111, we can estimate that Molina saves the Cards about 31 SB attempts per season.  

The average SB success rate in the NL last season was approx. 20% so, if Anderson had average success throwing out baserunners, there would be 24.7 more successful stolen bases against him than vs. Molina.  

According to "Baseball Between the Numbers", in 2004 each successful stolen base was worth .1593 runs.  There's no reason to believe that that number is appreciably different in '07 or would be in '08.  Multiplying that times the 24.7 successful SB's means that having Anderson behind the plate would yield an additional 3.93 runs per season -- let's call it 4.  So the value that Yadi saves the Cards in terms of stolen bases NOT ATTEMPTED is 4 runs, or less than half a win."

realizing that pitchers also have an influence on the running game, he continues by saying,

"Gary Bennett and Kelly Stinnett, last year, averaged 0.63 and 0.62 SB attempts per game -- more than .10 LESS than average.  And Bennett was awful at throwing out runners.

It's safe to say that Yadi's worth to the Cards, IN TERMS OF STOLEN BASE ATTEMPTS PREVENTED, is about 1/2 a win."

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/comments/2007/10/28/15749/933/48#48

by Dave Barry on Nov 12, 2007 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

hmmmm...
I simply don't buy into this logic.  I know we have a lot of sabermetricians that post on this site, but there are simply intangibles that can't be quantified with numbers.  If great defensive prowess like Molinas is only worth 1/2 a win per season, then why doesn't everyone just stick a guy who can hit behind the plate like they stick bats in RF?  The position is the most important defensive position on the field, with SS coming in a close second.  I think if you used a weighted average per position for defense, along with a similar VORP for defensive statistics you'd come much closer to getting a quantifiable win-share for catcher's defense.  I think that this is what makes Joe Mauer worth a lot more than Justin Morneau.  He's a good defensive catcher with a plus bat and his VORP offensively and defensively are much harder to replace because of the lack of great hitters at his position vs. the amount of quality hitters at the 1B position.

That being said, if 1/2 a win is truly the case, then why would anybody trade for him?  He's entering arbitration, isn't a plus bat, and apparently his defense doesn't matter a whole lot in terms of wins.  I don't see the Cards getting any kind of value, and they are one of the few organizations the covet good defense behind the plate.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 13, 2007 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

my
premise was not to add wins from behind the plate, it was to add wins to the team.  that is why I didn't use vorp, and instead used win shares.  you're helping me make my point, even though you're faced with the statistics that shows how much molina is worth, you still believe he is more valuable than that.  my theory is, that his particular tool set is overrated in this market relative wins based on the idea of his defense. lots of teams still value defense, particularly the ones i named in the original heading.  

i took my best shot at highlighting an exploitable area in the market, and even though it isn't the most popular idea, i believe it has merit.

by Dave Barry on Nov 13, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Hermida for Yadi?
you think the Marlins would go for that?

anyway, does Yadi's win shares include his handling of the pitching staff? his catcher ERA was 4.33, or 0.90 better than Gary Bennett's of 5.23 (Stinnett's was 5.14). i know that catcher's ERA is a somewhat questionable stat, but i think it probably is true that Yadi handles the staff and his pitch-calling duties better than an average replacement would. not sure how to quantify it, and the gains may be slight, but it seems like it should be weighed into the calculus.

by kindred on Nov 12, 2007 2:54 PM EST reply actions  

doubt it
but as someone pointed out, molina is the better than all available catchers this off season.  the question is, is the marginal difference in performance and cost in dollars over a player like Yorvit Torrealba warrant a significant return in talent?  

i put no faith in catchers era.  i guess the handling of a staff is something for the club manager to assign value to

by Dave Barry on Nov 12, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Keith Woolner debunked CERA
a while back at Baseball Prospectus.  It's a questionable stat at best -- imo, it's garbage.

by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i understand that...
... of course. for one thing, a lot of backup catchers deal primarily with a single pitcher, e.g. Mirabelli and Wakefield. if that particular pitcher isn't as good as the rest of the staff (e.g. Wakefield vs. Dice-K, Schilling, & Beckett), then the numbers will be inflated. i know that isn't the only limit of CERA, but it is one of them.

but the underlying point, i think, still stands: some catchers have to be better at pitch-selection and situational strategy, at applying the gameplan created by the pitching coach. this seems to be one of Molina's strong suits. when a catcher is catching a phenomenal pitcher with amazing stuff, it might not matter as much. but when he's working with marginal talent, i imagine that it can make a pretty strong difference. it might not be quantifiable, but it still has value.

by kindred on Nov 12, 2007 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is molina
better at implementing the pitching coach's strategy than say jason kendall, or ronny paulino?  is it because he is a defensive first catcher, and he automatically gets assigned attributes that may not be real?

by Dave Barry on Nov 12, 2007 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

honestly...
... i'm not saying he is any better at it than any particular player. my only point was that managing the staff is one of his primary jobs. obviously, TLR and Dunc have confidence in him in this regard, and he's familiar with the pitchers on the staff and the system being implemented. i was just suggesting that that be considered in the discussion.

i'm not strictly opposed to trading Yadi if it meant that we could improve the team. i'm just skeptical that we can do it that way. after all, if Yadi isn't significantly better than Kendall/Paulino, then why would any team give up any decent talent to acquire him when they can just sign one of the other guys? there are a lot of mediocre catchers on the market this year, so there will be a lot of affordable options for teams in need of a catcher.

it's a good topic for discussion, truly, but i remain unconvinced that we could get anybody approaching Hermida's talent level for Yadi. in this market, with this many decent catchers available as FAs, teams would likely just sign one of them.

want an offensive catcher? there's Kendall and Lo Duca. want a defensive catcher? there's Torrealba and J. Molina. Yadi's trade value can't be very high right now.

by kindred on Nov 12, 2007 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree
molina is not going anywhere, hermida was a lofty goal and the best time if they were to sell would be in a thinner market.   i still believe however, molina could be worth more in trade, because of the idea he is the premier defensive catcher, than the actual value of his defense.

by Dave Barry on Nov 12, 2007 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think
there's a difference between catchers game-calling.  I'm incredibly jaded toward catcher intangibles though.  There's been nothing quantifiable that I've seen that suggests that game-calling exists and I never understand why we attribute that solely to the catcher.  Surely a pitcher knows the gameplan too.

by azruavatar on Nov 12, 2007 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Only defense for that
Literally every pitcher claims that a catcher's game calling affects their play.  Whether that actually affects their bottom-line performance, we can't quantify, but everyone says it.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 12, 2007 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me put it this way
If the Marlins were crazy enough to go for a Yadi w/ a pitching prospect then I would bash Mozeliak over the head with a hockey stick if he said no.  Hermida is an outstanding young talent.  As a 21 year old in the AA Carolina league he posted a .975 ops and hit 18 HR in ~385 AB.  He had a .500 slg. in 123 games last year.  If that trade could be pulled off, then swinging either Duncan or Ankiel suddenly becomes more feasible from the team's point of view.  I feel that Hermida would replace Duncan's offense a lot better than Ryan Ludwick would.  

As for your question about what skills are over/under valued...Obviously the massive contract the Dodgers gave Juan Pierre shows that there are knuckleheads out there who value stolen bases and speed too highly, but I think that is more likely an episode of brain sprain.  5 years ago I would have said definately, but I think now that number-crunchers have made inroads in many organizations that is going out the door.  I also think that managers are overvalued.  TLR and Torre got pretty hefty contracts this offseason, and honestly a great, superb, brilliant manager will win you about 8-10 games a year.  Some of the more promising new managers in the game (Manny Acta, Ron Washington, Bud Black) make around 500,000.  Honestly, all you really need in a manager is a guy who won't let the clubhouse go to crap (to the point of regular fistfights and totally laziness/malaise) and a guy who doesn't pencil Juan Pierre into the 1 or 2 holes in the lineup.  

Btw...this is a pretty good bit of thinking here, and goes into different territory than the typical "Trade Duncan for McGowan and Halladay and the CN Tower" diaries.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 12, 2007 6:19 PM EST reply actions  

yadi's wins
i had a little trouble following the math that led to yadi's only being worth 1/2 a win.  i took a little different route.

starting off, if the average catcher has .74 SB attempts per game, then using yadi's average games played of 111 that would yield 82 attempts.  yadi's rate is .48 SB attempts per game which yields 53 attempts.  the average success rate for average catchers is %20  which means that they would throw out close to 16 of the 82, leaving 66 on base.  Yadi's success rate is close to %50 which means he would throw out about 26 of them leaving 27 on base.  so, the average catcher would leave 39 more runners on base than yadi, right?  so, using the metric that "each successful stolen base was worth .1593 runs", wouldn't yadi actually be worth 6 wins?

by FutureMan on Nov 12, 2007 11:35 PM EST reply actions  

well...
... you're confusing "runs" with "wins". Yadi would prevent ~ 6 runs (0.1593*39) over the course of the year by preventing the running game. 6 runs translates to ~ 1/2 win.

by kindred on Nov 13, 2007 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Hermida..
Is a god.  Had one of the sweetest swings of the entire 2002 draft class and has been plagued by a couple of lingering injuries.  He really fired it up in the 2nd half last year.  I expect a HUGE year from him (Think -.290, 25/30 HR)

by KeepOnRolen on Nov 13, 2007 2:19 AM EST reply actions  

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