Market Ineffeciency?
Dear Diary, and good morning
i'm going to paint with broad strokes quickly to sell an idea and hear feedback from the knowledgeable VEB community. Both jake peavy and johan santana could be shopped by their teams this winter. Surprising, the expected return in players for both pitchers will be in the same general level of talent. That surprises me because peavy has two years left on his contract while santana is in his walk year.
so i begin to wonder what the difference between the two pitchers in actual wins would be. using 2007 win shares percentage as a guide, their difference is negligible. Is it possible the idea that Santana is the greatest pitcher in the game adds another level of value on the free agent or trade market. will A-rod command his large contract because of the wins he brings to a team, or rather will the idea that he is the greatest player in the game command it.
Do teams still over value players who are considered best at their position, or even players who have the best tools. Does the idea carl crawford can steal bases so efficiently make him more of a commodity than he actually is?
which brings me to the cardinals and yadier molina. Molina has quickly attained the reputation that he is the premier defensive catcher in the game, and with good reason. nobody is denying that he is a great player, but is it possible that he is overrated? I took a look at win shares to get some tangible evidence to work with. the hard ball times has molina accountable for 11 win shares on the season, 7.5 are attributed to his fielding. That's not prorated, so we have to take into account the time he missed. So instead I'll use Win share percentage, .518.
where he falls in WSP for 2007
J Mauer .922
J Posada .853
C Snyder .795
R Castro .683
R Hernandez .546
Y. Molina .518
G Zaun .439
R Paulino .398
obviously this is not an all inclusive list, but the 7.5 win shares through defense molina brought last season did not equate to him being an extremely valuable player in terms of win shares. another thing that stands out to me is free agent R. Castro having a higher WSP than molina. It's a small sample size, and Castro is a borderline starting catcher. But the idea is, the win shares molina has can be overcome with a relatively inexpensive catcher with marginal tools across the board.
still with me? If molina is only worth .518 WSP, and the market values him higher than his actual worth in wins, it's feasible that he could be replaced with little win cost behind the plate with a free agent pick up such as Castro. It's not trying to upgrade the catcher position, it's turning molina into player responsible for more wins because the market could overvalue his particular tool set.
Lets me use this in practice, theoretically of course. The Marlins, angels, mets and yankees Really want a defensive catcher. They want the best one in the game, so naturally, they turn to Molina. marlins win by trading J. hermida, cardinals in turn sign M Barrett, Castro or loduca and trade Duncan for pitching. The cardinals now have a better outfield, a starting pitcher or two of some caliber, and have lost only one or two win shares behind the plate, while adding app. 7 million in payroll.
Broad stroaks, Intentionally leaving out things like projection, I'm relying heavily on one Stat(never a good thing)could just be over estimating Molina's value on the trade market, and perhaps most importantly, completely underestimating the personal relationship molina has with his teammates and managers or his "intangibles".
in my constant attempt to think of ways to outsmart the market, I wonder if molina is worth more to the cardinals on or off the team?
finally, i'm curious as to what tools or skills readers think teams overvalue or undervalue in the current market.
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I'm not an expert of sabermetric stats...
... but I would trust your list only if the win shares stat is totally indipendent from the team. Plus you have to add the value of running game prevention that Molina is carrying, that I can bet is not quantified.
GO CARDS!!!
I did a little research...
... and definetly win shares stat is not the correct one, because is linked to the wins of the team. I believe that you should go to something like VORP adjusted per defensive contribution (and, for Yadi, this would imply also to quantify the reduction of runnning game he induces).
GO CARDS!!!
Win shares
No stat is a perfect way to judge all attributes a player brings, but win shares does its best to take all contributions from a player and compare them on a neutral plane.
You're right about the defensive win shares not being accurately portrayed because of its link to total win shares. I went back to the original formula to try and calculate the difference, and then realize I took the easiest math courses in college for a reason. At least all of the catchers are on a level playing field in regards to defensive contributions in this stat
You may be on to something
There was a thread about Molina's real worth a few weeks back; I wonder if someone has time to find it and link to it - there was pretty good content there.
Positional inefficencies
The thought being that if you have talent at a position that they are pursuing on the open market you may want to investigate trading that position player because their value may be skewed. Take Posada, if he gets a large contract extension from the yankees then yadi's value on the market may increase because the average cost of the position over the league would be increasing.
This is just a train of thought and would have to factor in a lot more teams for the idea to work, but I think there is something here in analyzing the average cost of a player per position to see market fluctations...
1st base Defense
We can't really take advantage of that one haha
Michael Barrett
Trading Yadi
I believe that I probably overvalue his defense to a certain extent simply because he keeps the opposing teams running game in check and limits the amount of extended leads at first base, therefore discouraging a lot of players from going first to third on a single. Things like that just don't show up in the stat book and are immeasurable qualities to have in a catcher. He also calls and excellent game and hasn't been hurt for any significant time.
You also can't sabermetrically quantify his effect in the clubhouse, which is ample according to most inside reports.
I don't see the Cards getting a lot of value for him and he's a much better backstop than anyone on your list. I'd much rather see them keep Yadi and spend some money upgrading at SS and on the back end of the rotation. If Anderson is the Cards future at C than trading Yadi may be something to look at after the '08 or '09 seasons when Anderson would likely be ready to step in and play.
forgot to add
They don't show up
This is from Houstoncardinal in a thread discussing the merits of anderson v molina
"Last year the average NL catcher had .74 SB attempts per game against. Molina's was .48. So having Molina behind the plate saved the Cards an average of .26 SBA/game. Over the last 3 seasons, Molina has averaged 111 games/year so, by multiplying .26 * 111, we can estimate that Molina saves the Cards about 31 SB attempts per season.
The average SB success rate in the NL last season was approx. 20% so, if Anderson had average success throwing out baserunners, there would be 24.7 more successful stolen bases against him than vs. Molina.
According to "Baseball Between the Numbers", in 2004 each successful stolen base was worth .1593 runs. There's no reason to believe that that number is appreciably different in '07 or would be in '08. Multiplying that times the 24.7 successful SB's means that having Anderson behind the plate would yield an additional 3.93 runs per season -- let's call it 4. So the value that Yadi saves the Cards in terms of stolen bases NOT ATTEMPTED is 4 runs, or less than half a win."
realizing that pitchers also have an influence on the running game, he continues by saying,
"Gary Bennett and Kelly Stinnett, last year, averaged 0.63 and 0.62 SB attempts per game -- more than .10 LESS than average. And Bennett was awful at throwing out runners.
It's safe to say that Yadi's worth to the Cards, IN TERMS OF STOLEN BASE ATTEMPTS PREVENTED, is about 1/2 a win."
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/comments/2007/10/28/15749/933/48#48
hmmmm...
That being said, if 1/2 a win is truly the case, then why would anybody trade for him? He's entering arbitration, isn't a plus bat, and apparently his defense doesn't matter a whole lot in terms of wins. I don't see the Cards getting any kind of value, and they are one of the few organizations the covet good defense behind the plate.
my
i took my best shot at highlighting an exploitable area in the market, and even though it isn't the most popular idea, i believe it has merit.
Hermida for Yadi?
anyway, does Yadi's win shares include his handling of the pitching staff? his catcher ERA was 4.33, or 0.90 better than Gary Bennett's of 5.23 (Stinnett's was 5.14). i know that catcher's ERA is a somewhat questionable stat, but i think it probably is true that Yadi handles the staff and his pitch-calling duties better than an average replacement would. not sure how to quantify it, and the gains may be slight, but it seems like it should be weighed into the calculus.
doubt it
i put no faith in catchers era. i guess the handling of a staff is something for the club manager to assign value to
Keith Woolner debunked CERA
i understand that...
but the underlying point, i think, still stands: some catchers have to be better at pitch-selection and situational strategy, at applying the gameplan created by the pitching coach. this seems to be one of Molina's strong suits. when a catcher is catching a phenomenal pitcher with amazing stuff, it might not matter as much. but when he's working with marginal talent, i imagine that it can make a pretty strong difference. it might not be quantifiable, but it still has value.
Why is molina
honestly...
i'm not strictly opposed to trading Yadi if it meant that we could improve the team. i'm just skeptical that we can do it that way. after all, if Yadi isn't significantly better than Kendall/Paulino, then why would any team give up any decent talent to acquire him when they can just sign one of the other guys? there are a lot of mediocre catchers on the market this year, so there will be a lot of affordable options for teams in need of a catcher.
it's a good topic for discussion, truly, but i remain unconvinced that we could get anybody approaching Hermida's talent level for Yadi. in this market, with this many decent catchers available as FAs, teams would likely just sign one of them.
want an offensive catcher? there's Kendall and Lo Duca. want a defensive catcher? there's Torrealba and J. Molina. Yadi's trade value can't be very high right now.
i agree
I don't think
Only defense for that
Let me put it this way
As for your question about what skills are over/under valued...Obviously the massive contract the Dodgers gave Juan Pierre shows that there are knuckleheads out there who value stolen bases and speed too highly, but I think that is more likely an episode of brain sprain. 5 years ago I would have said definately, but I think now that number-crunchers have made inroads in many organizations that is going out the door. I also think that managers are overvalued. TLR and Torre got pretty hefty contracts this offseason, and honestly a great, superb, brilliant manager will win you about 8-10 games a year. Some of the more promising new managers in the game (Manny Acta, Ron Washington, Bud Black) make around 500,000. Honestly, all you really need in a manager is a guy who won't let the clubhouse go to crap (to the point of regular fistfights and totally laziness/malaise) and a guy who doesn't pencil Juan Pierre into the 1 or 2 holes in the lineup.
Btw...this is a pretty good bit of thinking here, and goes into different territory than the typical "Trade Duncan for McGowan and Halladay and the CN Tower" diaries.
by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 12, 2007 6:19 PM EST reply actions
yadi's wins
starting off, if the average catcher has .74 SB attempts per game, then using yadi's average games played of 111 that would yield 82 attempts. yadi's rate is .48 SB attempts per game which yields 53 attempts. the average success rate for average catchers is %20 which means that they would throw out close to 16 of the 82, leaving 66 on base. Yadi's success rate is close to %50 which means he would throw out about 26 of them leaving 27 on base. so, the average catcher would leave 39 more runners on base than yadi, right? so, using the metric that "each successful stolen base was worth .1593 runs", wouldn't yadi actually be worth 6 wins?

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