franklin, my dear
a number of times during the season, i argued that ryan franklin ought to be starting. the cardinals signed him to compete for a spot in the rotation, i pointed out; he was used as a starter during spring training, throwing 3- to 4-inning stints; and he spent 3 and a half years as a starting pitcher for the seattle mariners, with tolerable results. here are his career stats as a starting pitcher, encompassing 106 starts; for context, i've included the stats of several comparable pitchers (familiar names, most of them) over their most recent 106 starts:
| IP/GS | H/9 | W/9 | K/9 | HR/9 | ERA | WHIP | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| franklin | 6.1 | 9.5 | 2.6 | 4.4 | 1.4 | 4.45 | 1.347 |
| suppan | 6.0 | 10.0 | 3.1 | 5.0 | 1.0 | 4.18 | 1.457 |
| morris | 6.1 | 9.9 | 2.4 | 5.2 | 1.0 | 4.66 | 1.370 |
| marquis | 6.0 | 9.3 | 3.4 | 4.8 | 1.3 | 4.80 | 1.412 |
| pineiro | 6.1 | 10.1 | 2.8 | 5.7 | 1.2 | 5.11 | 1.423 |
| wo williams | 6.0 | 9.7 | 2.6 | 5.4 | 1.4 | 4.51 | 1.362 |
| batista | 6.1 | 9.7 | 3.9 | 5.3 | 0.9 | 4.60 | 1.516 |
| silva | 6.1 | 10.8 | 1.3 | 3.5 | 1.2 | 4.40 | 1.342 |
| liv hernandez | 6.2 | 10.2 | 3.2 | 5.0 | 1.2 | 4.46 | 1.489 |
the first several names on the list are all former cardinal pitchers of the glorious recent past; the last few are free agents they could have signed/re-signed last year or might be able to sign this year. i ask the question: if you already have ryan franklin under contract for $2.5m, why would you pay $8m to $10m a year for one of these other guys? admittedly, franklin will earn incentive bonuses for every start he makes over 20 games; i don't know what those bonuses are, but let's say that he can double his salary if he starts 32 games; that would amount to a bonus of $200,000 per start. for $5m, the cards can get roughly the same performance they'd get from those other pitchers, at half the rate other teams are paying --- and apply the savings to improvements elsewhere on the roster.
let me anticipate a couple of counterarguments. here's the first: if you use him to plug a hole in the rotation, it just opens another hole in the setup-man position. he was very good as a setup man, so why move him?, the same objections were raised last year to the idea of moving wainwright to the rotation; the bullpen will suffer, he's unproven as a starter, etc etc. setup men are not that hard to find --- the cards plucked one off the scrap pile in 2007 and out of triple A in 2006. in my opinion, todd wellemeyer ought to be a strong contender for that job --- as documented here, he was unhittable in relief after joining the cardinals (sample-size warning: only 16 innings). russ springer might be up to it, josh kinney might come back healthy, and undoubtedly there will be another ryan franklin lurking at the bottom of the free agent heap (i haven't checked the list).
the second counterargument is this: in his last two years as a starter (2004-05), franklin was awful: a combined 12-31 record with a 4.99 era. those are fair points; here's my response. first, as we all know by now, pitcher won-loss records have to be placed into context; they don't always mean what they seem to. ryan franklin in 2004 had an era nearly identical to that of javier vazquez (4.90 and 4.91, respectively) and park-adjusted era+ (88 vs 92, respectively), but franklin went 4-16 while vazquez went 14-10. that's because franklin pitched for the mariners, who finished last in the al in scoring, while vazquez pitched for the yankees, who finished 2d in scoring. jeremy bonderman also had results nearly identical to franklin's (4.89 era, 92 era+), but he went 11-13 for the tigers (8th in scoring); bartolo colon's era was 5.01 that year and his era+ was 92, but he went 18-12 for the angels (7th in scoring). franklin's won-loss was so bad that year that he got a bad rap; and when he posted similar numbers the next year and finished with an 8-15 record (for a team that finished 15th in the league in scoring), he was deemed a terrible pitcher. and he wasn't terrible --- not particularly good, mind you, but only a shade under league average.
a second point about franklin's lines in 2004-05 is that they are pretty similar to a year we currently consider to be an acceptably good one --- braden looper's 2007 campaign. see for yourself:
| IP/GS | H/9 | W/9 | K/9 | HR/9 | ERA | WHIP | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| looper 2007 | 6.0 | 9.4 | 2.6 | 4.5 | 1.1 | 4.94 | 1.337 |
| franklin 2005 | 6.0 | 10.0 | 2.9 | 4.4 | 1.3 | 5.10 | 1.437 |
| franklin 2004 | 6.1 | 10.1 | 2.7 | 4.7 | 1.5 | 4.90 | 1.423 |
we've been talking about the cardinals' need to find stopgaps --- players who can keep the team reasonably competitive for the next couple of years without tying up resources (ie, $$$ and opportunity). franklin looks to meet all the criteria. i think he can be a reliable #4 starter, a species that has been extinct in st louis since 2005, and he can do it for reasonable pay. plug him in alongside wainwright and looper, and there's 3/5 of your rotation --- not a great rotation, mind you, but those three could be close to league average as a group. that's almost 600 league-average innings for $12m, a savings of about $15m. . . . . . lot you can do with $15m if you spend it creatively.
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186 comments
Comments
Y'know, LB
by rockin redbird on Oct 9, 2007 9:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jocketty Trades That Didn't Happen
That sounds like a great trade right up Walt's pipeline -- and would have produced a more dominant starter.
Q: Who was the prospect and how much money "seperated" us from the deal and was it before or after the Mulder trade?
by saytreykid on Oct 9, 2007 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you read that article here
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While watching him pitch for the ChiSox
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm headed out the door
<5 K/9
<2 K/BB
<50% GB
His FIPs were all over 5. I really don't know if there are any better options but Ryan Franklin circa 2005 does not look like a viable starting pitcher to me.
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not even as a reliable #4 / #5?
a guy w/ upside would be better; franklin might be more realistic.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may not work out
by silent_bob on Oct 9, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well I think I'm taking issue
Tragically, the more I look at our rotation for next year. . . I agree with you; I don't think there are any better options. I don't think Franklin is going to be able to do much more than hover around 5.25-5.50 FIP but I guess that's the best we can hope for.
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think he'd be reliable
at most, this team is going to be able to add one above-avg pitcher this off-season --- they just don't have the trade chips to acquire more than one, and the free-agent market is full of guys like livan hernandez, who probably aren't much better than franklin but are a lot more expensive.
so if they add one good pitcher, and wainwright holds over, and you anticipate carpenter's return at the end of the year . . . . that still leaves 2.5 holes to fill. franklin could eliminate one of those holes and provide some cost certainty so that other areas of need (ss, 2b, of) can be addressed.
i don't suggest that franklin constitutes forward progress; but he might be a brake against further regression.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense,
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyler Johnson
Did anyone else catch the entire conversation yesterday? Who in the cardinal organization would be floating this idea? Couldn't be LaRussa and Duncan with their status so uncertain.
by Handsome B Wonderful on Oct 9, 2007 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
A: 15-3 2.01 ERA 1.14 WHIP 9.8K/9 3.12BB/9 7.14H/9 18GS 22G
A+: 5-5 3.08 ERA 1.48 WHIP 9.22K/9 4.32BB/9 9H/9 10GS 22G
A ball was in 2002 at age 21 while A+ was in 2003 and he hasn't started a game since, half way through 2003 he switched to AA as a reliever.
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to wonder...
by cardzfanbub on Oct 9, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't find his
by Alxfritz on Oct 9, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOOGY
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Repitoire
by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your soapbox
I see your point - and if TLR isn't back, it may even be discussed. IMO, that's the only way the possibility exists.
I say this because Franklin re-signed with the Cards during the season and he was quoted saying something to the effect of he liked how professionally he was handled by management. He knew he would be the set-up guy and he will continue to be the set-up guy if TLR stays.
I would take a 2008 season of Franklin starting 150 IP at league-average performance for the money he's making, considering the majority of VeB is willing to pencil Piniero and Looper into the rotation. Starting Franklin would sure give us a little more flexibility to somehow acquire ONE above-average starter.
by silent_bob on Oct 9, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wondered why
by ridgesee on Oct 9, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No reason to wonder
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So many questions
by JMedwick on Oct 9, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
set up
by sportsman on Oct 9, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
one constraint is that Percy
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is...
by Birds on the Matt on Oct 9, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how would you propose
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Post
I have no idea how STL is going to go get a decent starter. Livan is a good big game pitcher but I just don't think he is worth the money. He is more less a #4 starter at this point in his career. We have a lot of #4 guys who are a lot cheaper.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not very good at this sort of thing...
by Birds on the Matt on Oct 9, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't have any strengths
we could trade duncan, and then plug the hole in the outfield w/ a free agent --- that would probably be smart. but a trade like that wouldn't be incompatible with adding franklin to the rotation. even if we get (pie in the sky) aj burnett, there'd still be holes to fill in the rotation, and franklin could fill one reliably and cheaply.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zips
AVG OBP SLG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K
Chris Duncan* .262 .346 .472 133 409 59 107 21 1 21 66 51 112
Ryan Ludwick .262 .330 .476 130 412 48 108 26 1 20 64 37 108
It looks like we could get the same production out of Ludwick as Duncan.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
by Birds on the Matt on Oct 9, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Round hole, square peg
But the problem is that we really need (realistically) a #3-type to slot between (2)AW and (4)Looper, while all of these options represent #4/5 types. Yes it saves money, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem of obtaining a starter with whom you'd be comfortable using in a playoff series.
There is no decent #3-type available via FA (assuming Glavine and Pettite are not available), so the other option is a trade.
I like Duncan, but a Ludwick/Schumaker platoon in LF is good enough, and I think we could parlay Duncan and perhaps Reyes or into E. Santana/Bonser/Bonderman/insert your favorite mid-tier guy from a payroll-challenged team needing a LH bat.
by Hungry Jack on Oct 9, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they can add 1 good pitcher
- wainwright
- bonderman
- looper
- ???
- ???
candidates already under contract include
franklin
mulder
thompson
reyes
wellemeyer
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re
by Hungry Jack on Oct 9, 2007 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said last year
Who was our #2 in 2006? Suppan?
If we're not gonna get a #1 pitcher, then Wainer is #1 while we bide our time until Carp comes back. Then Carp is #1 and Wainer is #2.
And then we can get by with 2 or 3 #4/#5 type pitchers. Just like we did in 2006.
Carp/Wainwright should certainly be good enough that we don't have to worry about the difference between a #3 and a #5 pitcher.
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see something pursued with the Tigers.
Any ideas? I'd be willing to go for Robertson, but not straight up.
by cardzfanbub on Oct 9, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well to start...
A reliable closer signed with only 1 year left on his contract (Izzy)
A plethora of talented mid-level pitchers to slot in as middle relievers or a back of the rotation starters (Franklin, Looper, Thompson, etc.)
Young, cheap, strikeout pron, outfielders (Duncan, Ankiel)
Ability to add payroll
Some expendable minor league talent
With that list, I think the Cards have the pieces available to make some trades. The question is what teams to target and how to combine the above menagerie.
Teams to Target:
Dodgers
Rockies
D-Backs
Giants
Mariners
Braves
Baltimore
by JMedwick on Oct 9, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
aside from duncan, those aren't great trade chips
izzy's not a trade chip at all --- he's got a no-trade, and he made it clear last year he would exercise it if necessary. looper is a #5 starter making $5.5m a year on a 1-yr deal --- can't expect a lot in return for that. guys like brad thompson are a dime a dozen --- no value. and i don't see any surplus of minor-league talent either --- bryan anderson and perhaps mark hamilton (if he hits in the AFL) might make sense in the right deal, but rasmus and garcia are untouchable and the rest of our minor-leaguers aren't highly coveted.
i very much favor trading for pitching if the deal can be worked out --- but that still doesn't preclude making the wisest use of the resources on hand. we all appreciated suppan's contributions to the 2004-06 teams --- he was cheap and predictable. franklin could provide the same thing. i don't know how the cards, in their current state, can afford to pass up that kind of value when it's already in hand.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the Cardinals
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/40823/
by Some witty name on Oct 9, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Said
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest
To sum up, b/c I'm babbling at this point, Franklin would have helped, but it would have been nothing more than sticking your finger in the dike and hoping it held back the whole freakin' ocean. It may have been a thicker, meatier finger than Wellemeyer's, but it was a finger none the less.
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 9, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Franklin
by Elvis on Oct 9, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeyer is still promising
Wellemeyer's minor league stats are somewhat similar to Wainwright's: Welley's stats (Wainwright's in brackets): H9 8.59 (8.50); HR9 .68 (.68); BB9 3.98 (2.78); K9 9.57 (8.85); whip 1.40 (1.25).
Obviously the walks and whip have been problems for him, but Wainwright has also struggled with his whip, posting a 1.40 whip in 2005 in Memphis (and he had a high whip earlier this year). Welley's whip in 2005 Iowa was 1.34 with his ERA at 3.02.
Duncan has said that he thinks the high walks have been due to coaches pushing Wellley to throw as hard as he can at the expense of control. Once Dunc backed him down from 97 MPH to 95 MPH or lower, he has shown better control, as the lowering of his whip and ERA demonstrates. But he still can throw high heat when he chooses to for an outpitch.
Franklin was reportedly running out of gas (endurance) when he was moved to the pen. Why not try the player who is younger, stronger, and who just posted a 3.11 ERA for your team? Franklin could always come in if he failed.
I would think this site would want to offer a chance to a younger player who has shown promise in St. Louis rather than a so-so veteran (so-so as a starter, very good as a reliever), especially given Wellemeyer's natural talent and the number of pitches he has available to him.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In 242 major league innings
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Az
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The pitcher doesn't figure into
For example, if a pitcher has a BABIP of .350 that means that when one of their pitches has been put in play, 35% of the time it went for a hit. Unless it's a really terrible defense behind them, the hitters have been getting lucky and conversely that pitcher has been getting unlucky.
So for Wellemeyer, his .260 BABIP tels us that hitters have been unlucky about their balls in play landing for hits and Wellemeyer has been somewhat lucky. (There's some finer points to BABIP based on batted ball data but that's the basic rule of thumb.)
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find Baseball Prospectus' definition helpful
For a comparison:
Welley's BABIP in St. Louis is .259; Wainwright's is .315 (a little high); and Reyes' is .287 (I'm not sure that's good because he has a 6.04 ERA and a 1.41 whip--I'd think you'd want to classify him as unlucky but it looks like his BABP is classified as typical).
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Prospectus has different numbers
Wellemeyer's Vorp for the Cards ranks him as 4th for pitchers who started this year (Wainwright, Looper, Piniero, Wellemeyer) and 8th for all pitchers on the team.
Looking at Welley's improvement since working with Duncan (BB9 at 4.10 since coming to St. Louis vs. 5.62 in his major league career), it does seem that Duncan may be right about correlating an increase in control with a slight decrease in speed. The big drop in his ERA (3.11 in St. Louis) also bolsters Duncan's view.
Welley's minor league BB9 rate is 3.98 in 506 innings. He has been getting closer to this since working with Duncan. And if Reyes' minor league numbers are important, then Wellemeyer's should be as well.
I agree he still needs to work on this. But Duncan seems to be moving him in the right direction. And to say he has no control is just over the top (especially given that you support Reyes' performance this year).
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welle
I liked Welle when he was on the Cubs with that electric arm. His only issue was control. I a guess apparently his control is not awful. It seems that Duncan seems to be working with him well and Welle seems like he takes to whatever role is thrown at him.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I grabbed the aggregate
Regardless, the point stands that Wellemeyer doesn't have command of his pitches. His drop in ERA doesn't convince me that he's a good bet going forward (because, say it with me, ERA isn't a good predictive stat). Using 60 innings in STL as a baseline for making predictions is going to end badly. That's the type of analysis that cost the Mariners 8M this year to sign Jeff Weaver.
I could see trying him in the pen but I saw nothing this year in either his stats or when I watched him pitch that convince me he's a major league caliber starter. Anecdotal remarks from Duncan don't sway me a great deal because there's too much random variation in these sample sizes to substantiate whether Duncan has actually done anything.
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Command
- 1BB 5IP W
- 6BB 3.2IP ND(W)
- 2BB 5.1IP W
- 2BB 3.1IP ND(W) (not sure why he was pulled here)
- 0BB 5IP ND(W)
- 3BB 6IP ND(W)
- 1BB 3IP L
- 4BB 5IP W
- 3BB 2IP ND(L)
- 1BB 5IP ND(W)
- 0BB 6IP ND(W)
In his two stints as a reliever he had 1BB over 6.2IP and 5BB over 7.2IP while his stints starting are 19BB over 36.1 and 4BB over 13IP. It seems to be that he might have started to figure something out though.
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for breaking those games down
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in 11 starts
His command isn't streaky, it's random variation over 40-odd innings. His command is just bad.
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's puzzling that you don't think Welley
Reyes' whip in 2005 was .75, in 2006 it was 1.38 with a 5.06 ERA, and in 2007 it was 1.41 with a 6.04 ERA. Reyes' VORP this year was at -6.9 vs. Wellemeyer's which was at +10.8, Pineiro's at +12.7, and Thompson's at +9.
Since Reyes' BABIP was close to average in 2006 (.284) and 2007 (2.87), doesn't that mean he's performing as expected? How do his major league stats make him unlucky (and thus expected to change in the future) if he's so close to the typical BABIP of .290? I admit that I'm still in the babysteps of learning about all of this, but on the face of it, this doesn't make sense to me.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's start by addressing this -
- because it's factually incorrect. There is no trend for Wellemeyer that shows he's about to breakout and become a league average starter (he's never even been a league average reliever for goodness sake). More importantly, when Reyes has split half of 2006 & 2007 in the minors that is part of his recent history.
Go ahead and look at Wellemeyer's "increasing command". Given that we are examining 60 inning of him in STL (or even worse 40-ish innings as a starter) there's no reason to believe that this is truly a trend. But even if you think there's some kind of increased trend (and the 2nd graph shows there really isn't), we're going from horrible command to slightly bad command. This doesn't mean he's going to keep getting better.
You're asking me why I don't think Wellemeyer will develop command because it's not a trait he ever exhibited for any sustained period of time (even in the minors -- a 4 BB/9 rate is bad).
The question about Reyes is separate. I've tempered my expectations for Reyes but the question with him is what happened to the traits he used to have rather than can he develop something he's never shown in the past (which is what you are asking with Wellemeyer).
I haven't made the "Reyes unlucky" argument in several months because his stuff has deteriorated so I don't really care if he's been lucky or unlucky when he's had this crappy 2nd hand stuff. Reyes used to be a universally well-regarded prospect. He has ~200 major league innings under his belt (about a full season's worth of starts) over 3 seasons where he shuffled between the majors and the minors. Wellemeyer was never the prospect that Reyes was.
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 2008 zips are important to recall
Maybe you should look again at DriverZn's diary on 2008 zips again (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/10/9/51145/2828)
That diary lists our best projected 08 rotation as the following:
Wainwright 4.13
Wellemeyer 4.44 (may revise up in starting only role)
Reyes 4.65 (probably requires Duncan/TLR to be gone)
Garcia 4.65 (if healthy)
Looper 4.84
Thompson 5.15
Pinero 5.28
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As to "trends" (forgot to address that)
Anyway, it's not like we have a line of great pitchers to turn to. I would rather go with the young Wellemeyer rather than the established not very good veteran starter (Franklin). If Welley succeeds, we have a higher payoff given his youth. We can keep him as a starter or we can trade him before his contract expires. If he doesn't do well, we can turn to Franklin. We don't have much invested in Wellemeyer and no one would really put up a fuss if he didn't work out and were taken out of the rotation.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the ZiPS projection is
Can it really be a trend if it's isolated to a small sample size where we can't discern whether it's even noise or not? I don't think you're properly accounting for random variation when you are looking at 40-innings. His command is awful -- I don't understand how you can even begin to refute that.
"We have a higher payoff given his youth" -- he's going to be 29. He's not young. You could argue that he's cost controlled but his upside is, at best, a fringe starter. Franklin's proven that he can do that.
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I agree with DriverZn's rotation list below
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its a longshot
Ryan cut his walk rate by about 35% right after his 30th birthday. There are quite a few other power pitchers that have suddenly found control late.
I don't think he will be great, good is even a stretch, but show me a better in house option?
by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we've got an apples / oranges problem here
thompson, wellemeyer, and (at this point) even reyes have lower odds of being that useful #4 than franklin does.
i will grant that wellemeyer has a better chance of being a #2 than franklin, because wellemeyer has better stuff. but
we agree that wellemeyer's chances of being a #2 pitcher are pretty negiligible --- and i think you agree that welley's chances of being a #4 are worse than franklin's, too. franklin at least has established that he can pitch at that level; in welley's case, the idea is purely speculative.
it's like we're comparing mark mccormick and jaime garcia. mccormick was a #1 draft pick, and he's got a 100 mph fastball, so if he could ever learn to control it he'd be an ace pitcher --- but there's a high probability he'll never be useful in any form. the same goes for wellemeyer. garcia was a 22d-rounder and he has an ok fastball and a nice array of complementary pitchers. his odds of being an ace are far lower than mccormick's, but his odds of being useful in some capacity are higher.
that's franklin. i think there's a high probability that he can be useful in some capacity as a starter --- with wellemeyer, there's a sliver of a chance that he'll put it all together and become dave stewart, but a very good chance that he'll be completely useless.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point, but
Wainwright can fill in at #1, but we need a breakout performance from someone to fill that #2 slot. The only candidates we currently have for a breakout are Reyes and Wellemeyer. Either one could blow up, step up, or just end up being the #4 franklin projects to be.
If we land someone like Tejada or Rasmus pulls a Pujols in spring then we can win with Adam and the happy #4s. However, if we are not going to be slugging our way to wins we need a breakout pitching performance from someone.
by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i just don't see w'meyer as a breakout candidate
obviously anything can happen, but i just can't take welly seriously as a breakout candidate. the odds are too low.
carpenter is due back in august; there's your likeliest breakout pitcher. instead of taking a wild shot on wellemeyer or reyes that has a very high chance of complete failure, i'd assemble a safe, stable rotation and try to keep the team at .500 until carp gets back, then hope for a late run.
no matter what they do, they're probably looking at 3d place. remember, they were minus 104 in run differential; they have to improve by 104 runs just to get back to .500. for a bit of context, between 2003 (85 wins) and 2004 (105 wins), they improved by 116 runs --- even if the cards have an improvement of that magnitude next year, they're still just a .500 team.
by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to clarify
If we are looking at 3rd place, then why take the very cautious, known 5.00 veteran starter route? You said yourself that Wellemeyer had a better chance of being a #2 or 3 starter than Franklin. Since we can fall back on Franklin if Welley fails, I'd rather see if Duncan can continue to improve Welley's performance, as he seems to have this year. Plus, DriverZn made a good case about BB9 ratios and age, which also tilts in Welley's favor.
The risk in taking Franklin out of the pen is that we lose our set-up man, he returns to his bad stats as a starter, and he does not come back to being as good of a reliever after that.
The risk in developing Wellemeyer is zip--see how he does in spring training and go from there. The risk is really not high at all. Either he performs well or he doesn't.
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nycardfan, can you name a single example
i can't find one, and i've looked. if you can show me even one precedent, the wellemeyer project might seem a little less like a million-to-one shot.
by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Gibson provides a good example for DriverZn's
1959 (23) 4.64 BB9, 1.58 Whip
1960 (24) 4.98 BB9, 1.67 Whip
1961 (25) 5.07 BB9, 1.44 Whip
1962 (26) 3.66 BB9, 1.15 Whip
1963 (27) 3.39 BB9, 1.26 Whip
1964 (28) 2.69 BB9, 1.17 Whip
1965 (29) 3.10 BB9, 1.16 Whip
1966 (30) 2.50 BB9, 1.03 Whip
1967 (31) 2.05 BB9, 1.16 Whip
1968 (32) 1.83 BB9; .85 Whip
Gibson has a big drop in his BB9 at age 28 and 30-32. Also, he stays in the mid to upper 2.00 BB9 range until he's 38. And don't jump to the conclusion that I'm saying Welley is Gibson. This is simply a good example of age and BB9 rates.
I'm not getting into the particulars of matching number of innings as a starter in the majors, etc., because Duncan operates differently than any other coach I can think of. I don't know any coaches who would be able to (or want to) convert converted relievers back into starters so there is no statistical pool to provide that specific of a comparison.
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last paragraph is a copout
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2006/12/18/82328/316
duncan's not as special as you suggest --- good pitching coach, but it's not as if he possesses unique skills or ideas that separate him from all other pitching coaches.
again --- i have looked for precedents that are comparable to welley, and i can't find one. i take it that you can't find one either. that doesn't mean it can't happen --- but it does mean that a degree of skepticism might be in order.
by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the people you are comparing to Looper
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are in unknown territory
by DriverZn on Oct 10, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, I agree...
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One last clarification
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Does anyone have a way to quantify how pitchers walk rates change going from relief to starting? I ask because I often hear about some pitchers needing time to "settle in" during a start. They show control problem early in the game then pull it together. Wainwright has done this a number of times this year. If Wellemeyer is prone to similar issues they would have distorted his numbers as a reliever.
by DriverZn on Oct 10, 2007 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
come on Zn, we both know that 4.1 bb/9 is not
i'm all in favor of trying to reap upside, but is wellemeyer's upside as a starting pitcher greater than anthony reyes'? and if so, based on what --- 45 decent innings by wellemeyer?
that's pretty much welley's entire brief at this point --- as of may 2007 he was a failed player, cut loose by one of the worst teams in baseball. and now, 45 moderately good innings later, he's suddenly a reasonable bet to emerge as a front-line starting pitcher? i don't buy it, and i'm not aware of any precedent for it.
by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those 11 starts with St. Louis correlate
If we start looking at major league stats in isolation, llboros, then I don't see how Reyes wins any argument. You have to take into consideration his minor league stats to remain optimistic about his future.
Reyes' career major league stats: 206 IP, 5.42 ERA, 3.54 BB9, 1.35 Whip.
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
by azruavatar on Oct 10, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Reyes had 11 starts this year that correlated
I would think if Reyes started to lower some of his high major league stats, including this year's 1.41 whip, 3.61 BB9 rate, and 6.04 ERA, you would not object to correlating those changes to his minor league performances, at least in some manner. Granted, you might make adjustments. But I would expect that you would see a return to a pattern, not some arbitrary blip.
I think there's some question about double standards being applied, deciding which zips are valid or not valid for which players, and which minor league stats are valid or not valid in assessing which major league performances.
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, no, no
- 11 starts is not enough to make any kind of prediction on.
- Using a small sample to prove a thesis while ignoring the rest of the dataset is WRONG.
- Stop using the word correlating. It doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.
Same goes for the minor league stats. I know how to weight them and evaluate them. Reyes struck a comparable number of batters to Wellemyer but walked 3 FEWER BB/9. It's not about the validity of minor league statistics that the discrepancy is occurring; it's the evaluation of them at all. Wellemeyer strikes out a good number of batters but he has absolutely no command of any of his pitches. I just don't see any likelihood of him becoming a dependable starter. He hasn't even shown he can be a dependable reliever for an entire season.
by azruavatar on Oct 10, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've made no prediction or thesis, just agreed
Since there are other posters who are statistically knowledgeable who agree with this, I'm assuming that there's room for disagreement on rough assessments about our limited possibilities for starters.
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
reyes' numbers aren't very good
add 25 percent to wellemeyer's career era, and you're looking at something north of 6.00.
nycard, you're persuaded that todd wellemeyer is a bona fide candidate for the rotation next year. i'm not. let's leave it at that. we're arguing in circles, as per usual. tiresome.
by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007 vs. 2006 numbers
by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This season though?
by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 9, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No Worries
Wainman
Piniero
Fruit Loop
FA/Trade
internal solution
With Carp at the trade dead line or mid August isn't really that bad. I am not counting on Mulder at all. Lets say Reyes, Stavinoha and/or Bozied get offered for Garland or Willis.
Then Welle, Franklin, TJ, and Thompson compete for the 5 spot. It is not a horrible place to be.
I still like the idea of trying to get a ss/3b prospect for Thompson. We need depth behind Rolen/Ryan.
by nybirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Thompson doesn't start for us
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garland and Vazquez
We do need to figure out how to get a #2 starter no matter if Tony goes or stays.
Funny Side note about managers playing youth. A lot of people on this site talked about how Tony does not play youth and Lou does. There is grumbling in Cub land that Lou Pinella does not do a good job with young guys. They say he is too hard on them and stunts their development. The person everyone brings up in Felix Pie. They say he was progressing at every level until the met up with Lou. Since being with Lou his demeanor and play has changed for the worse. Steve Stone put it this way, Felix Pie did not play because he did not hit. Stone basically threw out the managers good with young guys myth. It comes down to guys producing. Felix Pie would play if he hit at all. Stone pointed out the Magers like Bob Melvin play youth because that is the organizational trend, they have all young guys. It's not like he gets to chose between playing a vet or a young guy, the Dbacks don't have a stock pile of vets.
Just an interesting note about playing youth.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually Lou DID play him
I don't get why people like Vasquez. I just don't. Has trouble going 6, etc.
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vazquez
10 seasons
206 innings/season
54 walks/season
182 so/season
32 starts/season
2 CG/season
4.28 career ERA
He had 15 wins on a team worse than the Cardinals. Now in my opinion wins do have some luck involved but he was 15-8 with a 3.74 ERA this year. HE was pretty good.
That is the problem Cubs fans have with PIE. HE was their Rasmus! They did not want him sticking around to sit the bench and just play defense. The feeling is his hitting took many steps back this season under Lou. He just did not get enough game experience.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see Wainer as a counter-argument
If Kinney is healthy, I'd certainly give Franklin a tryout. I REALLY want that 8th inning guy to be solid, but we're obviously desperate for starters. And Franklin seems to have a great attitude for doing whatever it takes.
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Franklin in Philly
Just a thought.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 9, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
franklin didn't start in cincy / philly
your question is a valid one. i'm checking franklin's career splits . . . . . when facing opposing hitters for the 1st time in a game (this includes both his starts and his relief appearances), he yields an ops of .763. 2d time through the order (mostly starts), .732. 3d time through the order (entirely starts), .802.
there is a dropoff 3d time through the order, but nothing out of the ordinary. most pitchers drop off. wainwright this year, e.g., had a .601 ops allowed the 1st time through the order, but an .835 ops the 3d time through --- ie, higher than franklin's career ops the 3d time through.
this is meant not to suggest (obviously) that franklin is as good as wainwright. i'm just spot-checking. i don't see any evidence that franklin has trouble stretching out as a starter.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hijack
by BigMOman on Oct 9, 2007 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TLR
I don't think TLR is stupid enough to go to NYC at this time. If I were a Yankee fan I would not want TLR managing my team. He is just the wrong direction at this point considering he is 62 and will not be a long term solution.
He is a great manager but I would think the Yankees would want someone more longterm and set on building things up again, as it looks like they have a good core of young guys mixed in with ARod and Jeter.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
New York Post says TLR isn't interested
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah saw that too...
Out here in L.A, there is still some talk of Seattle being a possibility for Him...but I think unless Tony wants to sit a year and wait for some better opportunity to arise ( Dodgers mid-season perhaps?) His most likely choice will be to return to the Cards.
by Timbo02 on Oct 9, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The impression
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rather
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Post
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious
Tony, I hope you stay, but if you leave...going to the big apple is the worst choice for someone with your personality.
by Elvis on Oct 9, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention...
by liam on Oct 9, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to say it won't happen
by liam on Oct 9, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
In fact he wouldn't bat at all. Except in interleague games.
by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bernie on TLR
Just this morning on the stltoday blog:
The smart money is now on TLR returning to the Cardinals...
--B
by WiscCard on Oct 9, 2007 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Backed up with alittle sourcing
If last week two of La Russa's closest friends tell me he's bummed out, and looking to leave ... and now they are saying after he thought it over, he realized this is still the best situation for him, and he's coming to peace with it.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPNNEWS
and on the Herd he was pushing hard for it said he'd lead the campaign..not that that means anything
by punchinjudy on Oct 9, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's interesting
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Herd...
He's made no secret as to thinking NL baseball is a joke, calling it "JV baseball", plus he's taken every opportunity to rip La Russa for being labeled a "genius".
by cardsrul on Oct 9, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya today he was
by punchinjudy on Oct 9, 2007 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thoughts...
first, if springer comes back
second, if percy comes back for at least part of the season
third, if kinney comes back healthy
now i am not saying you would need all of these, but add wellemeyer to the bullpen, and hope for 2 of the 4, and imho, that would replace franklin
another thing about franklin, those 04-05 years, how much different would they have been in the national league with that pitcher batting? if you figure that in, it makes your argument even better
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 9, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hardballtimes article explains
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/daily-graphing-ryan-franklin/
It's ironic that people are advocating that we should use a not very good veteran who is in his late 30's over younger prospects who have performed well enough this year to be a 4th or 5th starter (Wellemeyer and Thompson).
Read the Hardball Times article for their assessment of Franklin. He's a great reliever. Let's just leave him there.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks
You were just better than me and provided some stats/research citing an article.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
todd wellemeyer has 11 career starts
thompson has 18 career big-league starts and has averaged just over 5 innings in them, with an ops-against of .863 --- a far sight worse than kip wells. his upside is as a 5th starter, ie ryan franklin. his downside is considerably lower than that.
ryan franklin has 106 career starts, including 3 full seasons as a starting pitcher. he was very consistent in those 3 seasons. he's a known quantity, far less likely than wellemeyer or thompson to be a complete bust.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you disagree with Hardball Times
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i occasionally write for hardball times
i've corresponded several times with the author of that article, david appelman, who (like me) is a freelance contributor the site. he gave an objective analysis in that article; i simply think more of franklin more than he does. he doesn't do anything special, but in my opinion franklin can be useful as rotation thickener. he avoids walks and has a consistenly low BABIP, and he put up tolerable numbers for terrible teams in seattle. when the cards signed him back in january, i figured he would do well with a better team behind him, and in a league that didn't feature the dh. i applauded the move (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/1/11/92136/0370), and sure enough he was a valuable pickup.
differences of opinion always exist among baseball analysts. david and i have disagreed before, and will disagree again. and i don't even know that we're specifically disagreeing here; that's a 2-year-old article. since it came out, franklin has established that he can pitch effectively in the nl. maybe david's opinion has changed.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is 2 years old but that shouldn't matter
I appreciate your having a better opinion of Franklin since he came to St. Louis and I accept that as valid. But similar arguments based on new contexts (such as shifting to the NL), or developing better skills, should be accepted for others as well, such as Wellemeyer.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i had a better opinion of franklin
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One last thing, I'm not sure consistency is a plus
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again with the won-loss records . . . .
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are stats behind all those losses
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the hardball times article didn't say
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ryan franklin is a roids user
its likely that his example motivated 10,000 kids to use steroids, 9,000 of which now lay dead
i'm stunned you would even consider this LB
by royalsreview on Oct 9, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
satire alert
franklin got caught, owned up, and served his penalty. as long as he stays clean moving forward, he's ok w/ me.
by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harsh and dangerous words my friend...
by Timbo02 on Oct 9, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah Timbo...he WAS.
Franklin was a member of the gold medal winning US baseball team at the 2000 Olympics, where he had a 3-0 pitching record in 4 appearances."
Still, his statement about influencing 10,000 kids / 9,000 dead is laughable.
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 9, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand corrected...
by Timbo02 on Oct 9, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
w-wh-what?!
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 9, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with RoyalsReview
I began a 2 year cycle of stanozolol in hopes of growing a stronger, thicker facial hair.
Now, I find myself waking up with leaking nipples, blood when I urinate and the ability to crush small domesticated animals with my bare hands. Luckily, I have the urge to eat them raw afterwards...so atleast I'm not wasteful.
Ryan Franklin stole my youth.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well did you get the facial hair or not?
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My facial hair has experienced things
I lost my innocence by achieved machismo and virility....in my facial hair.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have nothing to add
Nipples on the other hand...
by effin fisk on Oct 9, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh to reminisce!
by liam on Oct 9, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For those interested in the AFL
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2007/gd.html?2007_10_09_msswin_pddwin_1
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lets roll the dice in 2008
We have other needs. SS and 2B. If we have chips to more (relief, OF) that is where I would spend them.
As to pitching here is how I view it.
#1 Wainwright (moves to #2 if carp makes it back before the end of 08, and we are in contention)
Thats where the "known good" list ends. Now we start rolling the dice.
#2 Wellemeyer: BB/9 is one of the few rate stats that often improve with age. I am willing to gamble that this year may have shown a new level of performance. Its a big gamble but we are not going anywhere in 08 unless we get some positive surprises.
#3 Looper
#4 Reyes: With qualifications. First I would make sure he isn't throwing or practicing in the offseason. Rest and get his legs in shape. Its sink or swim time next year and if he fails after 10 or so starts, grab #6 off this list and replace him. Keep duncan away from the guy.
#5 Thompson: Limited upside, limited downside. Cheap.
#6 Franklin: He just doesn't seem to have any + pitch that can be used to get hitters out once they have seen him a few times. I think he is better in relief than starting. But when plan A fails....
CL: Izzy
Setup 1: Springer
Setup 2: Mulder His "new" delivery puts incredible strain on his shoulder. Each time out he looked good for 1-2 IP and then fell apart. If he can throw 1IP of his 90+ stuff then he can be a very effective relief pitcher. Getting something out of him is better than a few starts and back to the DL.
by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wells
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's an interesting question
It seemed like he did well in the first 3 or 4 innings and fell apart later, but I haven't looked at his games by inning. He also was able to get out of a lot of jams safely in the last half of the year so I'm not sure his problem was with nerves.
Still, since he was such an enigma, I'm not sure I'd want to depend on him to save anything. I'd rather have someone else experiment with him first.
The Cards may have approached Wells to be a long reliever because he said at the end of the seeason that that would be his safest route, but he had decided to test the waters again for starting pitching.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you re-sign him?
by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
by BigJawnMize on Oct 9, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a reliever
by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking that
by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that GM should be fired
by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We saw little but stupid deals
by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't deny that I'm somewhat giddy
If Lee gets healthy another year away from the wrist injury and Zambrano pitches to his capabilities, they should be able to maintain their current level. But, if they don't get ridculously hot play out of the Jacque Jones of the world, there is a team that could see a 10-15 win dropoff from the year before.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wells is too much of a headcase
by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Disagree
His stuff is too good for him to not succeed in some role. I could see him being a nasty closer, and as long as he's not a non-cardinal in the NL Central, I'll celebrate every out.
by liam on Oct 9, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word!
"Its a big gamble but we are not going anywhere in 08 unless we get some positive surprises"
That pretty much best describes our pitching situation. No one is really a better option than the next guy when discussing a bunch of #4/#5 starters. But someone will have to step up/get lucky for our team to have a chance. Why can't we get a Lilly/Marquis performance out of someone?
The pitching will definitely be interesting next year.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This sounds right if we want to control costs
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MIddle Infield
I say we try to get rid of Adam Kennedy. We will lose out but at least have a team eat half his contract.
Then in 09 we can see how or farm system looks for MI players or the FA market.
Like the Idea of getting rid of the Angels Connection?
by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There's no way
by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Mather
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joe Strauss - TLR
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHAH
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does make sense
I wonder what DeWitt's next move is?
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so if the new GM approves
by vince eating tarp on Oct 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he can always play the
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but he did say
by vince eating tarp on Oct 9, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that sounds right
DeWitt will look unreasonable, I think, if he doesn't accept this. He will have to show his hand if he doesn't want TLR here and accept the PR ramifications for that decision.
All things considered, it seems like a smart thing to do and the right thing to do on TLR's part.
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that
by jillsinmo on Oct 9, 2007 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be funny
by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs - "Please STOP Believing"
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HA!
by rockin redbird on Oct 9, 2007 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was beautiful
by SleepyCA on Oct 10, 2007 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Pujols?
Personally I am not a big believer in spending money on 1b since there are a lot of good hit no field players wondering around. Mind you none of them are "good hit" like Pujols is "good hit" but I think 1b is a lot like Closers, 5th starters, and left fielders in that you can fill holes there fairly easily.
I mush rather spend on the top two-three starters and above average players up the middle and at third.
How about when Carpenter is healthy we look at trading him?
by BigJawnMize on Oct 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's worth too much
by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not
by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here, here.....trade him.
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 9, 2007 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should sell high
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what were they askign for Helton?
by punchinjudy on Oct 9, 2007 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franklin as a starter
by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And if we want to think about future value
by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baby Birds
by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 6:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also
by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good day all round
The Solar Sox scored 2 runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings to win 7-3.
by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am dead serious when i say this
i challenge any one here to give me the name of a man (or woman) who would be better at running our beloved Cardinals than Lboros.
i already sent mine in & was rejected because i never went to college. i'm thinking of suing based on some sort of discrimination clame.
i mean just because i couldnt sit through 4+ years of college dosen't mean i dont have a good baseball mind. does it?
i really shouldn't post after 1 am should i?
by gdm426 on Oct 10, 2007 1:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
New names for GM
Paul Woodfork 32 - Dbacks Assistant GM
Chris Antonetti 33 - Indians VP Baseball Ops
Tony LaCava 46 - Blue Jays Director Player Personnel
Tim Purpura - fired Astros GM
These 4 are from the latest story on stltoday.com
by StLHugo on Oct 10, 2007 8:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Purpura
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 10, 2007 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs



















