sir walter
it never ends, does it . . . . already i feel like this off-season has lasted a whole month.
on tuesday i received answers from jeff luhnow to my latest batch of questions about the farm system. i'd been planning all along to post them today; in light of yesterday's announcement you might find them particularly interesting (esp. the next-to-last question). scroll down; they're in the post directly below this one. additional discussion at Future Redbirds.
as for sir walter: above all, i will miss his patience. it might seem like a strange thing to say, insofar as jock's ouster apparently was precipitated by his unwillingness to wait for the kids to develop. but i always thought jocketty had the ideal pace for a general manager. he was like de niro's character in The Deer Hunter --- known for taking down his prey with one shot. he tracks without haste, without worry, seemingly without doubt. others might cover twice as much ground, but it's wasted effort, all for show --- they chase dead ends, squander rounds on wild shots, and lose kills they might otherwise have got. this guy just trudges along with his rifle dangling at his shoulder and his senses open to the world --- doesn't hurry, doesn't call attention to himself in any way, just surveys the field and waits for his opening. when he finally makes his move, you damn well take notice.
that was jock at his best. beginning in 1999, he broadened the cardinals' talent base through a series of stunningly advantageous trades:
- looper and spare parts for edgar renteria
- a bunch of nobodies for darryl kile and dave veres
- juan acevedo and spare parts for fernando vina
- bottenfield and kennedy for jim edmonds
- tatis and reames for steve kline and dustin hermanson
- lankford for woody williams
- polanco and spare parts for scott rolen
- narveson for larry walker
jocketty also deserves credit for locking up pujols for most of his prime after the 2003 season --- incredibly far-sighted move. throughout his 13 years at the helm, jock always projected an air of steady calm, almost never acting out of panic. it happened maybe only once --- when he made a risky trade for mark mulder one day after the pitcher he really wanted, tim hudson, got dealt to the braves. it was the last trade of any consequence that jocketty made, the last one that would have a long-term impact upon the franchise --- the one, in the end, that proved to be one trade too many. since then --- except for one blessedly, memorably fortunate october --- it has been all downhill. the mulder trade was a sign that jocketty's prey had learned to detect his approaching footstep and stay out of range; he was no longer able to sneak up on them and get off a clean shot. that trade probably seemed like a clean shot to jock at the time --- in its outlines, it very much resembled the darryl kile trade --- but the prey had adapted. walter never regained the advantage.
the mulder deal marked a turning point not only in that sense, but also in this one: it put the cards on an irrevocable win-now footing. prior to 2004, the cards and their fans never took october for granted. after their first playoff appearance in half a decade in 2000, the team barely made it back in 2001 and repeated in 2002 (the year kile died) only via a monumental act of collective will. after the depressing and fruitless 2003 season, the cards were written off as non-contenders entering 2004; indeed, in their big trade that off-season the cards gave up veterans (drew/marrero) for youth (marquis/wainwright/king). the transaction wasn't designed to pay quick dividends, but it did --- and (as i noted a couple weeks back) we're still reaping the profits and will be for years to come. . . . .
i'm digressing. after coming so close in 2004, the cards' horizon --- the fans' and the front office's --- seemingly shortened. after 105 wins and a world series appearance, simply making the playoffs no longer cut it; dominance was now the standard, and closing the deal in october the paramount goal. were we spoiled? i don't think so; st louis hadn't hoisted a championship flag in almost 25 years. we wanted it badly and we got our wish, but the intensified focus on short-term returns commensurately diminished the investment in the future. we made the tradeoff willingly, and it was worth it, but the organization couldn't sustain the win-now approach indefinitely --- no organization can, 'cepting the yankees. walter, though, couldn't or wouldn't shift out of that mode.
a lot of observers still don't see the need to change; they think the cardinals can stay on top forever, and would do so if only the owners weren't such scrooge mcducks. (a lot of these people, comically enough, are the same ones who denounce spendy teams like the cubs and yankees and red sox for trying to buy a championship.) i addressed that issue on monday, and i'd like to revisit it today with a small thought exercise. go through it with me; it know it won't change anyone's opinion, because opinions are incredibly hardened in these matters, but just go along with it anyway. humor me. let's say the owners had given walt the resources to sign any pitcher he wanted this off-season ---- weaver, suppan, miguel batista, ted lilly, jason schmidt, take your pick. do you realize who this signee would have replaced in the rotation? not kip wells; he was the cards' first off-season pickup, inked to a deal on november 28, and upon his acquisition tony immediately declared him the #2 starter. nor would this hypothesized signee have displaced anthony reyes; the cards needed at least one minimum-wage earner in the rotation for payroll relief, and reyes had shown enough promise in 2006 to merit first shot at that role. he went out and earned his spot in the rotation with a 3-0, 2.70 spring-training performance. it goes without saying that carpenter wouldn't have been the odd man out (duh --- i can't believe i even sacrificed any fingertip cells typing out that sentence). so if a high-priced free agent were in the rotation, he would have taken the place of one of the 2007 cardinals' two best starters, looper or wainwright --- and it probably would have been wainwright.
remember now, the team went into the off-season planning to bring him back as a reliever (see this post from november 13), and not entirely without reason --- izzy's return was far from certain, and wainwright was a proven success as a setup man / closer but an unknown quantity as a starter. at about the same time, tony / dave began talking up looper as a starter --- that trial balloon was floated in mid-november, and the cards never changed their tune. so if they'd signed, say, miguel batista, they very likely would have entered 2007 with a rotation of carp, batista, wells, reyes, and looper, with wainwright setting up isringhausen. and after carpenter got hurt and reyes/wells flamed out, wainwright still probably wouldn't have gotten a chance to start. if he were throwing well as the 8th-inning guy, then tony would never have moved him --- la russa doesn't mess with success in the bullpen. and if wainwright weren't throwing well? then he'd just be a struggling 2d-year pitcher with 0 big-league starts on his resume --- not the kind of guy who's likely to displace mike maroth or joel pineiro on tony/dave's watch.
so it was the owners' refusal to overpay for jeff suppan or miguel batista that opened a rotation slot for wainwright --- nay, that forced him to the rotation. some regard that as cheapness on the owners' part; i consider it a healthy commitment to player development. the owners declared that commitment over a year ago; it's the commitment jocketty refused to make, and the reason he had to go. he wasn't necessarily hostile to player development --- he had many opportunities to trade away rasmus and reyes the past couple of years, and no doubt got offers on hawksworth and garcia and various other prospects; he didn't bite. he was a responsible steward of the team's young players. but --- particularly after 2004 --- he kept putting obstacles in their way, blocking their paths with one dead-weight veteran or another. when, heading into 2006, the cards had an opening in the rotation and two youngsters (reyes and wainwright) available to fill it, walter still felt compelled to add sid ponson. when he had tyler johnson available to get lefties out, he felt ricardo rincon was an upgrade; when he had john rodriguez and chris duncan available as outfielders, he still thought the cardinals needed juan encarnacion and larry bigbie. think about that last one for a second: larry bigbie was anointed the starting left-fielder heading into 2006. if he doesn't get hurt --- if he holds down the spot as a left-handed version of encarnacion --- then chris duncan never gets a chance to play.
that's the real cost of overindulging the "win now" mentality: it's not the monetary cost, it's the opportunity cost. you expend the opportunity on a proven mediocrity and thereby deprive a younger but potentially better player of a chance to help your team. that very pitfall nearly cost the cardinals everything in 2006. they began with an opportunity in the rotation, and wainwright earned it with a stellar spring --- but they spent the opportunity on ponson, who failed miserably. as the season progressed they squandered opportunity after opportunity on injured (mulder and isringhausen) and failed (marquis) veterans, to the point that they nearly drove the team off a cliff. in octber --- completely out of options, and as a last resort --- they finally gave the opportunities to younger players. lo and behold, the kids outperformed their elders and helped bring home a championship.
now --- do i hold the owners blameless in all of this? absolutely not. the baseball people in the organization wanted aj burnett back in december 2005, and burnett badly wanted to come to st louis, but the owners refused to pony up; two years later, his contract looks like a bargain. a few days after they cheaped out on burnett, jocketty engineered a deal that would have sent marquis and suppan (both in the last year of their deal) to arizona for javy vazquez (under club control for at least 3 years) and a dbacks' prospect. it was a vintage jocketty maneuver --- creative and daring --- and it would have given the cards two formidable workhorses (carp and vazquez) through at least 2008. but the cardinal owners insisted on getting cash back in the deal, and the dbacks refused to provide it; the deal fell through. good on walt; bad on the owners. (arizona fans can be glad that dewitt & co balked; the dbacks got a much better package from the white sox a few days later, obtaining el duque, luis vizcaino, and chris young in exchange for vazquez.)
i gave this opinion on monday: "raising payroll isn't the main solution going forward. it's much simpler, and more complicated, than that: they need to do a better job of evaluating talent and developing players." jocketty apparently didn't see it that way; he saw the problem mainly as one of payroll and sought a payroll-oriented fix. he's entitled to his opinion, and i'm sure we all respect it --- even those of us who disagree. i also respect him for stating his priorities clearly, and forcing this issue to a head; his honesty enabled the franchise to make an informed decision about the future. it's what you'd expect of the man. he has always been a first-class act and a figure of integrity . . . . well, maybe it wasn't so first-class of jock and his posse if they were really executing reprisals against people for merely talking to jeff luhnow, as has been reported. but if that's the worst thing you can say about a guy, he's got stronger character than most. admiration, gratitude, respect --- these are the feelings i'll always have for mr jocketty. wherever he might turn up in the future, whether in or out of baseball, i wish him the very best. it has been incredibly rewarding to have him on our side for these last 13 years.
thanks for everything, sir walter.
0 recs |
175 comments
Comments
call me a lemming if you must
dont you think because Tony La Russa & Dave Duncan are in charge of the team had something to do with why Walt wanted the vetran players over unproven rookies? They are both "win now" guys. and they feel the best way to win now is with proven vets. i see Walt getting vetran players on the team as Walt's way of just trying to keep Tony & Dave happy. i dont think they were telling him what to do, but they deffinatly told him what they wanted, and Walt did his best to get them what they wanted.
he was the best GM for the job as long as Tony & Dave were in charge. now with the recent turn towards playing the kids, Walt clearly isn't the right guy to run the Birds. as sad as that makes me its true. which also means the days of Tony & Dave running the Cards is over as well. i'm going to miss them all. they did so much for us fans. they brought us so much joy & happiness. and you cant put a price tag on that.
from the bottom of my heart, i thank you Walt. thank you for all the joy & happiness.
thank you so much for all the great memories that will last a life time.
it's been a hell of a ride. sadly, all good things must come to an end.
by gdm426 on Oct 4, 2007 4:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I wish Walt the best and Tony and Dunc too. (since they will likely leave as well.)
Moz would not be a bad choice as the next GM, but I am leaning toward Ryan. (this guy did alot with little for the Twinkies)
I think Dewitt had to make a choice. Jocketty or Lunhow. He went with Lunhow. Old School vs. New School, Vets vs. player development, Scouting vs. Stats...I hope he chose wisely. I always liked the mix of the two, but that is difficult to maintain in today's game.
by Elvis on Oct 4, 2007 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan
In any case, if this in indeed the end of the Jocketty/TLR/Dunc era, I wish them all well and thank them for one of the greatest eras in StL history. Two other wishes: 1) they do not end up with another NL Central team, and 2) no more trying to sell us on Kip Wells/Larry Bigbie as an "upgrade" of any sort. Please, stop that madness.
One other note: today is a perfect example of why I read VEB. Lboros' posts are eloquent and well thought out, as are the other contributors and frequent posters. Thanks for not just being a trash-talking blog; we can listen to Jim Rome for that.
by TurdFerguson on Oct 4, 2007 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll loose a lot of
by ridgesee on Oct 4, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by spants on Oct 4, 2007 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know that
by ridgesee on Oct 4, 2007 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These are my main concerns:
- Having an idea for a new direction is one thing, actually being good at it is quite another. Many teams have attempted to go for a player development approach, while certainly some have succeeded, others have quickly succumbed to persistent mediocrity. Granted, this can happen with any approach, but intuitively it seems easier to be competent taking a more veteran intensive approach, rather than relying on a higher than average percentage of your prospects working out.
- Highly competent people can be awfully hard to find. Even with all their flaws, Jocketty, Tony, and Duncan, were all highly competent people who had a plan, philosophy, and had the knowledge and experience to make things work more often than not. Even if DeWitt and Co have a good idea, the hard part is finding the core personnel to make the idea work.
- Assuming that the front office shakeup and change of philosophy will prevent the organization from filling immediate, short-term needs, we're essentially writing off the next two seasons. Unless people are drastically underestimating the prospects we have, we're just not going to be contending (even in the NL central) anytime soon. Granted, the status quo's hand over the next two years wasn't much better, but as stated above the people we had created a track record showing that they knew what they were doing more often than not.
- General sadness due to the end of a very happy era of Cardinal baseball. Even though I'm only 26 years old, I will consider myself damn blessed if I ever see another era of Cards baseball as great as the Jocketty/La Russa era. I think it is pretty safe to say that we're about to see the most drastic overhaul of the Cardinals organization in over a decade. God only knows who else amongst what we consider "the core" of the team will leave in the next year or two. I knew that this era would end someday sooner rather than later, but it's still incredibly sad when I realize that this day is here.
by bailorg on Oct 4, 2007 5:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why so negative?
- The Giants and Astros went "all Vet" and that didn't turn out well. Nothing says one approach is always the right answer.
- Why make this assumption. What I take the change in direction to mean is we will greatly reduce the trading away of young talent. It does not mean we will suddenly not be players in the FA market, or via trade if the right option is there.
- I am only in my 30s and this is the 2nd great run I have witnessed. The 80s were some pretty good years also.
by DriverZn on Oct 4, 2007 6:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jocketty
What exactly was Walt going to do for 2008 to improve this team that some other GM can't do? Walt's best moves, always, were making trades. He had nothing to trade with for next year without giving up on 2009 and beyond. And even if he were to trade away Rasmus or Perez or whatever for some vets - how many trades would it take to make this team competitive next year? Picking up 2 or 3 average or better starting pitchers plus a power hitting corner outfielder isn't going to be easy.
I'm sorry, but 2008 was pretty much a lost cause with or without Walt. The organization decided to work for the future now instead of later - as far as I'm concerned, it's the right move. There is always risk with uncertainty, sure. But, as Branch Rickey said - it's better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late. I'd say the same with Walt. Let's move forward so that success comes back sooner rather than later.
by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post bailorg
I try to take the long view and all things, and I truly believe that organizations, industries, and societies move in cycles. I think we are seeing the beginning of a new cycle in Cardinal baseball.
I don't have high hopes for 2008, but this organization might surprise us. I feel better about 2009 when a significant chunk of payroll opens up while Rasmus, Anderson, Garcia, Perez, Walters, Ottavino, Hoffpauir, Mather, Greene, etc. are a year older, and hopefully a full year better as players.
by Hungry Jack on Oct 4, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks again
To lb for providing the best content and reader forum on our favorite subject.
It's easy to imagine the strife in the front office heading into hot stove season. Following the thrill of a major league championship, they struggle through a torturous season to finish sub .500, and the projections don't look so good. But player development efforts have really only percolated up to double A, with Memphis firmly entrenched at the bottom. With precious little talent in reserve, polarity over the question of whether to promote it, or trade it must be rife with resentment.
The decision regarding SS alone provides a great example: a) re-sign eck and block the promotion path, b) promote ryan, or c) trade talent for renteria. Those choices can not simply be defined according to the size of the budget.
If the front office can't find agreement on questions like that, then they have to change players themselves. Much better to try and get that straight before hot stove season, than afterward. The team on the field has worked through steady and substantial turnover throughout walt's era. There is no reason to expect the team in the office to not go through some of the same.
It was a great run, and you brought us the championship we had high hopes for in 04-05, and found unimaginable in 06. Thanks again.
by Birds on the Bat on Oct 4, 2007 6:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
...Dead weight...
And who exactly did they block?
Was it Percival, Franklin, Springer, Isringhausen or Looper in the way of younsters.
Wainwright got his shot since Isringhasen returned healthy. Pineiro looks promising and got a shot to replace Maroth who CLEARLY was an "August hope and prayer" from Leyland when NOBODY was ready to throw the towel in yet! He bombed, but did he stand in anybodys way with the CD on the line when he arrived.
Wellemeyer dominated in his last 10 appearances. Well, thats most of the staff except for Johnson, Flores and Thompson who blocked no one. They were up and down this year, like pitchers most teams have on the staff every year.
Did vets block Chris Duncan from learning how to catch the ball, or Reyes from dominating at the MLB level, did they block the long shot Ryan from getting some starts to show he still has a long ways to go, did they block any 2A or 3A pitcher you can think of we had ready for the majors or any hitter from proving they were the next Pujols. Ankiel got the shot he earned and deserved. Injuries to vets actually helped some kids get a shot?!
I thought maybe Mather, Bozied and Hoffpauir deserved a call-up. Maybe Washington and Stavinoa? Along with Worrel, Barden and Gonzalez, spring training is looking pretty damn good provided other guys get healthy.
They hoped Keisler could get it done, Cavazos, Falkenborg, all arrived with the same hopes and chances to stick the same way Ludwick did.
If we're only talking about Jaun (who could have been on any HEALTHY team and survived) or Miles whom Joe Buck called the 25th man MVP, or Eckstein only hitting .309 or Guch hitting .290 (mainly off the bench), then Id have to say that barring the onslaught of injuries and plain bad luck, the Cards had a pretty good year.
To say the vets are dead weights and stood in the way of "kids" is just wrong.
I give bailorg all credit for his #4 statement and a high five....he said it all there. Excuse the typos!
by cardschinmusic on Oct 4, 2007 7:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dead weight vets
If your point is that there aren't that many "kids" for these dead weight vets to be standing in the way of -- I think that's LB's point as well. We need more kids and fewer dead weight vets. But they're still dead weight.
by chuckb on Oct 4, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
veterans vs. the kids
by lefty fan on Oct 4, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just performance
While some may argue that Encarnacion had a decent year compared to his career and was an average outfielder...was he worth $5 million? Was he worth $4.6 million more than a AAAA player we could have had for the minimum?
Even having a great rebound year...Was Izzy worth 8.75 million dollars for 65 innings?
After one semi-successful season converting from a failed starter to a reliever prior this one and a fast start this year, was it worth it to lock up Franklin through his 37 year old season at 2.5 a year?
When it was obvious we were no longer in contention, was it worth it to bring in a Kelly Stinnett over getting our youth some experience? What was the point of that? What about Cairo? What was the point of that move?
Dead weight is correct.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You talk about the need to save money
And arguing against the need for a quality veteran bullpen--give me a break. If we don't have reliable starting pitchers, we certainly need a strong bullpen. And our bullpen is a relative bargain compared to other teams. Which young players would you put in their place? Were you that impressed with the minor league relievers to hand that stressful job over to them?
It's easy to talk about the idealism of investing in youth. No one is going to disagree about the need to develop a farm system. But it gets more complicated when you are pressed to put together a winning team from the youth that we have available.
Clear out the dead weight--good cliche. But what about the reality of playing games next year and keeping our core veterans interested in staying with us by maintaining a winning team?
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who?
I would take 90% of Juan's performance for 425,000 a year and 4.5 million towards a player who actually produces marginal wins 8 days a week.
While we may not have had a ton of guys in our minors ready to play (although I would have opted for JRod over Juan), there were plenty out there. For example, at the time of the Juan signing, out of favor Ryan Church was demoted to AA. he could have been had for a bag of balls.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's still blocking youth
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youth
by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm asking about what youth he was blocking
And as to having people ready in the minors for pitching. A lot of our pitching problems are due to either injuries or promising prospects not developing the way they should have, given their peripherals.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you read the statement?
That's who he was blocking. Guys with equal performance for less money.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Izzy worth it?
Granted, the Cardinals had no other options (read: kids on the farm), but it seems like every team has power bullpen arms in spades, except for the Cardinals.
Here's to hoping the Perez boy is the real deal and can start saving games in 2009 on the cheap. Then trade him after the 2013 season and bring in the next kid, and so on.
Is it really that difficult to develop one so-called closer every five years?
by 26thMan on Oct 4, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you looked at the bullpens
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
teams like
All of those guys make less than Izzy. Many of them outperformed him. Most of them were made into closers after his last contract extension.
99% of relief pitchers are failed starters. They are not groomed to be closers, they failed at starting and were the best of the rest. Closers are manufactured out of smoke and mirrors by the likes of Billy Beane and such on a yearly basis. It is one of the worst places to allocate your money.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you watched any of those guys pitch?
Chad Cordero
Jose Valverde
Joe Borowski
David Weathers
Bob Wickman
Solid Closers
JJ Putz
Bobby Jenks
Takashi Saito
Jonathon Papelbon
Jeremy Gregg
Juan Accardo
Manny Corpas
I'd rather pay Izzy $8 M than face the real possibility of having Cordero, Valverde, Borowski, Weathers, or Wickman as the closer.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sound
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean 2006 Izzy, right?
In 2006 he was injured.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember those
comments about number of baserunners, too comforatable of a lead for him to pitch in, etc...people always call him a rollercoaster ride.
it's probably undeserved...just like the off-the-cuff evaluation of those other team's closers.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely disagree
One of Tony's primary rules of bullpen building/management is starting with a solid closer and building from there. He basically wrote the book on modern-day bullpen management.
Billy Beane has won nothing with his bargain basement closers. And his current closer was groomed to be one in the minors.
Some teams get lucky: Jenks, Valverde, etc...and they end up being reliable closers.
If you really will take a Manny Corpas, Al Reyes, Kevin Gregg, or Al Reyes over a healthy Izzy then I completely question your grasp of evaluating baseball rosters.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not true
The Cardinals converted Wainright who had saved only 3/5 chances prior to the playoffs in another unstable bullpen.
I only went back 2 seasons and found 2 examples...need I look farther?
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how does that disprove what I said?
JJ Putz is another example.
Again - Wainwright is a solid starter and became a lights-out closer. He would not have been removed from the closer role if Izzy didn't return with a new hip.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This and That
In Jocketty's camp, you have the "I must pay dearly for a proven closer because we can't win without it" side.
In Lunhow's camp you have the "you don't have to overpay for a proven closer because you can go out and plug in a solid pitcher into the role and make them a closer who is just as effective" side.
by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt
That's one thing that I trust Walt and LaDunc on. Like I said, they've kind of written the book on it.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edit:
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bullpen
I can easily envision arguments between factions in the amount of money to spend on certain players, based upon gut vs. analysis.
by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you think we are overpaying
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 guy
The only ones who made more money this year are Gagne and Mariano.
Gagne and Ryan haven't worked out so well. Rivera was awesome again this year but not if you listen to Yankee fans. He might not be back.
Tell me, what do you think Izzy would get on the open market and who would pay him more than we are?
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironic
Don't you think?
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said
I gave 2 recent examples of teams who went into the season with a brand-new unstable closer and took home the whole prize.
Smoltz was dominant upon conversion, Papelbon, Wainright, Myers...I imagine a ton of starters would make great closers. They are a lot easier to come by than Mariano Rivera and Jason Isringhausen's agents would have u believe.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers like Smoltz,
by sdrone on Oct 4, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope but pitchers
Smoltz and those ilk are not a dime a dozen, Myers and company are a little more common.
Look at Franklin as another example. Bad starter, great bullpen guy.
Also, consider this in the failed starter vs closer debate:
Jack Morris is not in the Hall of Fame. Bruce Sutter is. There is no doubt in my mind Jack Morris could do what Sutter could. There is no doubt in my mind Sutter could never do what Jack Morris did.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another note
Sure, many closers are failed starters. But it takes a special player to pitch in the 9th inning consistently with success.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'll bite
Give me any one of those guys and the money.
Fine.
I'll take Manny Corpas, his 2.08 ERA and the difference in salaries.
I'll add the 8.25 million dollars difference from what Izzy makes to the allocation of virtually any position on the team and build a better combination towards winning than Izzy and whomever.
For example, we allocated $5 million a year to RF or 7.5 million for next year. Who could we have instead for 13.75 to 16.25 million a year? Would say, Manny Corpas + Adam Dunn win you more games than Izzy and Enc?
How about SS? Would Izzy + Eck win you more games this last year than Renteria and Corpas?
2B? Would Izzy and Miles/Kennedy/Ryan win you more games than Corpas and a $10 million second baseman?
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cards have a closer
Until then, I'll spend the money on Izzy and the rotation.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd spend the money
and hope Josh Kinney, Springer, Franklin or some other schmo could hold it down for us...
especially considering the way the roster is shaping up so far for next year.
What's the point in picking up an $8 million dollar option on a closer who will turn 36 during a re-building year? I might see somewhat of a point if it would make a difference between us winning 89 games and us winning 92 games but I doubt that will be the case.
How about spending that money on re-tooling the tool box instead of treading 3rd place water in the NL Central?
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that says it all
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I agree
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you don't have strong starting pitchers
Of that list, who had a lower ERA than Izzy? Who had a higher percentage of saves? And did they come from the minors (we have no one available to take his place from the minors) or were they veterans?
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
aaron miles --- classic deadweight vet
that's just in the last 2 years.
encarnacion and looper were more expensive iterations of this phenomenon --- they didn't really improve the team, they simply hogged spots that younger but equally competent players might have filled.
i will agree that not all of these guys blocked true prospects, and i'll agree that tony / dave had a lot to do wtih the decision making. but given that track record of ineffective acquisitions, you would think jocketty might be open to trying things differently. he wasn't --- he wanted to keep doing things the same old way, even though circumstances had changed. that's why he had to go, and why tony / dave likely will follow him out the door.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
add deadweight: mark mulder version 2
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looper hogged a spot for a younger player?
As to Aaron Miles, he was cheap and reliable. He batted near .300 all year, was a switch hitter, and was able to fill in for two injured players for most of the season. Do you really think Brendan Ryan was ready to play at the big leagues for the entire year? I'm a big fan of Brendan's, but I doubt he was prepared to take on that job at that time.
Most the people you mentioned were cheap and reliable. We're really not talking about saving much money. And as to not trying things differently by allowing youth to play--we had a large chunk of AAA up here this season. As I recall, a lot of people were bemoaning the fact that our ending roster looked nothing like the roster on the first day.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again ---- look at opportunity cost
they did a nice salvage job on the guy, wrung some value out of him after he'd failed in his intended role. but if we've now reached the point where a pitcher with a 5.00 era is considered a great success, then it's clearly time to change direction.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to qualify my last sentence
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't have it both ways
Reyes was an opportunity cost and continues to be one because he's taking up a key pitching slot and he's wasting salary that we could better invest in player development. Now that he's out of options, would you get rid of him in order to help the team secure what you just defined as "a successful pitcher"? And saying Reyes is cheap is not a good answer. You pegged Miles as 'dead weight' and he's cheap (and has been more successful this year).
Everyone who doesn't succeed is an opportunity cost. You bet on Reyes and he didn't succeed. Duncan bet on Looper. His success is more demonstrable than Reyes'. I'm not Looper's biggest fan, but as a starting pither, he's reasonably priced. And as I asked before, who would you have put in his place from the minor leagues who could have done better?
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not having it both ways
if a prospect such as reyes succeeds, you control him for another 4 to 6 years at a very low cost, freeing your payroll to pursue free agents or re-sign your in-house talent. if he's a success, he moves your whole organization forward. if he doesn't work out, you throw him away and bring in the next guy. the opportunity cost of a guy like that is very low; all you've lost is one year of development time.
with looper the cost is considerably higher because you can't just throw him away --- the price tag is too high. he was a failure as a setup man and, at best, an adequate starting pitcher --- he didn't add any marginal value to the team, ie wasn't materially better than other players already on hand. so the $15m the cards invested in him over three years is completely wasted --- it doesn't make the team better, it just keeps the team treading water.
another way of looking at the difference is this: there's still interest in anthony reyes on the trade market, but there's no interest in looper. they tried to trade him after 2006 but he was untradeable, so they were stuck with him and made him into a starter --- they made lemonade out of lemons. it was a clever use of roster resources, but it's no way to build a foundation for an organization. those aren't the types of moves that built the great teams of 2000-2006.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We only lost 1 year of development time on Reyes?
I find it hard to believe that Looper was "impossible" to trade as a reliever when he was coming off a year with a 3.56 ERA and a 9-3 win/loss record (his ERA for the 2 previous years was also respectable, 3.94 and 2.70). Given this year's pressing need for relievers, we should have been able to move him along if that had been Dunc's wish. Dunc usually sees potential in pitchers he chooses to work on as starters and that's what he said he saw in Looper. You might think about what he was saving in converting Looper to a starter rather than spending wildly on the FA market for pitchers who turned out to be no better than he was. That's money that could be put in player development.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
anthony reyes was a top 50 prospect
if you're unwilling to give an opportunity to a player like that --- and accept the risk that he might flop --- then player development is not for you. and it's pretty clear, nycardfan, that development isn't your cup of tea.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hardcore Legend's position on Reyes
I have frequently advocated for more playing time for B. Ryan, Ludwick, Ankiel, Barden, Thompson, and Welleymeyer. And I've complained about an unjustified bias to veterans like Cairo, Branyan, Eckstein, and Miles. Just because I think Reyes has failed, you shouldn't jump to a conclusion that is undermined by my posts this season, which consistently show my support for developing young palyers on our team.
And to answer your question about Reyes: of course I wanted Reyes to have an opportunity to prove himself. I was even OK with multiple opportunities. But I'm unwilling to give him open-ended opportunities, especially in light of how badly he has harmed the team this year.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and how could I forget about Skip
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
now i'm really confused
that philosophical difference has now been acknowledged by both sides. if you agree that young players are essential to the future, and jocketty was opposed to that goal, i don't understand why you consider jocketty's dismissal to be bad for the franchise.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since you have not voiced any problems
Perhaps the best way to curtail an argument between the two of us is for me to defer to HL's statements since he is more articulate and knowledgeable about these things than I am. I haven't disagreed with much that he has said on these issues. Maybe that will help clear your confusion.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wasn't discussing this w/ hardcore
but yeah ---- let's call it a day. we're going around in circles. . . . . .
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wahahappened?
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry HL
by StLHugo on Oct 4, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
now that's a healthy perspective
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry HL
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm for vigorous player development
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Name some
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A Matter of Trust
Coming in to 2006, Wainwright was a solid prospect that had yet to post an ERA under 4.40 in two years at AAA Memphis, Johnson was much the same between AA & AAA, and former independent leaguer Kinney had just completed a half season in AAA, giving up 40 hits in 25.2 IP with an ERA over 7. While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to speculate as to how well the team would have fared if the end-of-season-version youngsters had played all year, there is no way that the team's braintrust could have counted on any one of them to be the pitcher to anchor the bullpen. Tony needed someone he could trust and, to get one, Walt had to dive into the free agent market.
The same thing holds true for Encarnacion & John Rodriguez. While J-Rod was solid for us in 2005, you're talking about a 28 year old outfielder with a significant platoon history, who'd never played more than 126 games in a season, who'd spent 9 years in the minors before his first big break, and more than likely had a few other reasons why La Russa wouldn't consider him for the starting role in 2006. (And I like Rodriguez a lot!) Just because he had 34 games in Tennessee where he hit like a god and had a good batting eye, that does not instill enough confidence in Tony/Walt to forgo getting a veteran free agent like Brekky.
One way to look at this situation is that we had young guys that would go on to perform very well by the end of the year, yet we wasted major dollars on free agent mediocrity that didn't play any better and left those prospects in the minors / lesser roles. Another way to look at this is that we brought on two known commodities that prevented our team from holding open auditions for half the year, trying to find someone who could pitch/hit at league average levels. You end up paying for the security of expected performance or you take the gamble that you might find something as good or better for a rock-bottom price while wading through the dross.
by Solanus on Oct 4, 2007 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there were many people
likewise, it was a widely held opinion that ricardo rincon was washed up; he had no velocity left, and all his indicators were terrible, so the odds were strong that tyler johnson (who had completed a very good season at triple A and had nothing left to prove in the minors) would outperform the "proven" rincon in 2006 --- as, indeed, he did.
these weren't hindsight opinions; they were widely held ahead of time, not only by fans but also by some within the cardinal organization. they were realistic options, but jock / tony / dave wanted "proven" talent.
i also have to point out that signing "safe" free-agent mediocrities doesn't necessarily mean that a team avoids holding open auditions. these particular signings prove the point. by the end of last year, encarnacion's right-field position was indeed an open audition, with spiezio and preston wilson competing with encarnacion for playing time. juan, you'll recall, had lost his job by the end of the playoffs and was so miffed he didn't even show up for the parade. likewise, looper's setup-man role was an open audition that wainwright eventually won, and after he replaced izzy then it became an audition among looper (again), sosa, kinney, flores, and ty johnson. adam kennedy was signed this year, but 2d base remained an open audition.
signing free agents is no guarantee of stability; when you factor in the cost, it's at least as risky as taking a chance on a rookie or a reclamation like ryan ludwick.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larry, I'm not defending Walt/Tony
What I was trying to point out is the rationale that Tony and Walt used to justify their personnel decisions. I am not defending their position; I would have prefered for them to be more bold in their handling of young talent. I hate the fact that their plan for Memphis was basically find every 29-year-old failed former prospect (and many others that could only charitably be called prospects) and give them a significant role on our AAA farm club, blocking any development time for the youngsters.
I think I understand their reasoning, but that doesn't mean that I believe in it.
by Solanus on Oct 5, 2007 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, you argued that well
No one was talking about "buying" a team along the lines of Chicago or Boston by purchasing numerous veterans to take the place of young players. That's rediculous. Jockety was working with a modest plan to add an imact bat and one or two veteran pitchers. He was talking about making the team more competitive with some immediate investments.
Now which pitchers exactly in the minor leagues would be blocked by that plan? We don't have any pitchers. I wouldn't have minded letting Thompson and Welleymeyer have a chance, but then all of our starters (except one) would be back of the rotation guys. And besides, those aren't the young players many on this site are concerned with.
The table eric supplied yesterday made it clear how long of a wait it will be before our team can really rely on the farm system for success. We pretty much raided AAA this season for talent. We didn't have much left, except for too many outfield prospects and an infielder. There are a number of prospects to look forward to. But a lot of those players are not yet ready.
And if we do not have a successful team for a number of years, I do not see why our veteran talent would want to resign with a team that does not give them opportutnities to be in contention. These are players who are used to winning, and they are not just going to stay with the Cards if the Cards no longer seem like the club they originally signed with.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
,,,Miles
I dont like Miles all that much and its been made clear many times over on VEB thats he's (and Eck) short and doesnt fit the curent "classic jock" snapshot, so therefore he's not up to modern atheletic standards (whatever that means)...but a lot of us grew up before the steriod period, weight training etc and 6' 5" was the exception and not the norm. Miles didnt cost us anything, on the field or on paper as the 25th guy. Joe is correct.
Most the other guys you mentioned on the dead weight list were guys that showed some solid promise at one time and were a cheap roll of the dice that might pay off like Nunez, Calero, and most of our bullpen for the last 9 years did... and as we've said, they didnt really block anyone since there was really no one to block...
Haren and the failure to draft well are Walts and TLRs biggest crimes, I giv'em a pass on Haren, but I certainly agree... the draft failure is the worst kind of situation any MLB team can have when injuries hit like they did here this year.
I also remember watching guys like Zeile develope with great hopes and be the most promising hitting catcher ANY org could hope to have and soon become a journeyman chess piece. I can name a few others....
......somebody from Houston up above needs to go look at Wellemeyers last 10 outings.
by cardschinmusic on Oct 5, 2007 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...and further more.....
Every team goes thru that every year from spring training on, especially when they have 7-8 guys on the DL later in the season.
by cardschinmusic on Oct 5, 2007 6:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles
To say that he, and others on Larry's list blocked no one just isn't true. He blocked Ryan this year and, assuming he returns, he'll also be blocking Hoffpauir next year. Does he make nothing? No -- he earns $1 M -- certainly not ARod money but 3 times what Ryan and Hoffpauir earn and more than both would earn together. But that's not the point. The point is that he's blocking their path to the big leagues. He is mediocre -- a known mediocre, yes but still mediocre. Might Ryan and Hoffpauir be worse? Yes but if they don't play, we'll never know.
And as to Wellemeyer -- 28.2 IP, 29 baserunners (pretty good) w/ 14 walks (terrible), 21 K (not bad), 10 RA (OK), 3 HR (OK). That's dominant? And even if it is, to get weak-kneed about less than 30 innings out of a 29 year old journeyman is exactly what this thread is about -- he's dead weight. He could be the 11th man on a staff if he had to be but we know that he's not much better than that. We have 242 career IP that tell us that. I'm going to go by his 242 IP rather than his most recent 29. And every pitch he throws for this team is one less pitch that someone who might be better than him won't throw.
by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
by StLHugo on Oct 5, 2007 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
As for your last sentence:
"The interesting thing for me is that Miles hits for average but as Az keeps pointing out it is an empty average, he is fine as a lead off guy I guess but we already had that in Eck having two of them in one lineup was useless, Ryan needs to play and Hoff should be ready by sometime next year too." -- let punctuation be your friend. It's easier to decipher stuff like this when you end sentences with periods rather than allowing them to run on endlessly.
by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
....Calling Houston, come in.....Houston
Your NOT liking him means little as well, but take a look around the MLB. He was cheap, blocked nobody at the time and hit some in the clutch off the bench.
I still dont think Hoff or Ryan will be any better in the long run. 19 doubles in 513 combined AB's is not so hot, those are Miles numbers, Shumacker smacked 16 doubles in 232 ABs. Period! Hows that punctuated! Also watching Hoff 40 games (sitting in the stadium) gives you a pretty good indication hes a lot like Miles in many ways.
We would have saved $300,000 w/o Miles with possibly lesser results.
by cardschinmusic on Oct 6, 2007 5:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you don't think Ryan could have been
Ryan is a dramatically better fielder than Miles as evidenced by him being a true shortstop. Add in the fact that he's considerably faster than Miles and even if you don't like Ryan in the long run, it's not hard to see how Ryan was obviously the better choice to be playing the role of the 25th man. Yet Miles continued to get playing time over him. As for Hoffpauir, he's not my main argument but his ability to draw walks is something that Miles can't do. If they are going to have someone who can't hit for the 25th man, at least pluck a quick defensive whiz out of the minors and play him.
Everyone wants to say that he's just the last man on the squad and so it isn't a big deal. He's logged 400 PAs each of the last two years playing in over 250 games. That is significant. The team should make the upgrades that it can especially when the upgrade is cheaper.
(PS - I'm not sure what Schumaker's doubles have to do anything but that's an atrocious run on sentence. Inserting, commas, doesn't, constitute, proper, punctuation,,,,,,.)
by azruavatar on Oct 6, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lboros
Brilliant usage of deer hunter.....right on...a few other thoughts
- I believe the trading genius (even including the Milwaukee deal) of Whitey in the 1979-82 stretch belongs in the same discussion as 1960s and WJ
- The prey did catch on.....and it was especially hard for WJ to fleece the same GM or to sneak up on anyone after he had such a great reputation
- I still believe that long term success for any MLB organization is primarily based on unity from owner to the dugout. We had a nice stretch of that with DeWitt, WJ and TLR singing off the same sheet....somewhere it broke down....hopefully we can get it back
- Big salute for Walt....maybe change is best but I think he is a great person and a great GM......time and the history books will be kind to him
- Regardless, player development is a must for any organization - especially a $100M budget team - lets hope we get the train on the tracks and keep it speeding forward
by Hinkster on Oct 4, 2007 8:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Exactly.
by bukowski on Oct 4, 2007 8:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I also
by JBagKY on Oct 4, 2007 8:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
as an econ major
looks like i can finally create a new username and quite paying for that domain name.
by inwaltwetrust on Oct 4, 2007 9:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What to say...
- Sad to see Walt go. Thanks for all he has done to make the Cardinals a great team. We as fans will be lucky if the next guy is anywhere as successful as Walt.
- That proposed trade for Vazquez adds a slightly different light to my thinking on Jocketty's final seasons. While it does not mean the Cards still would have won the 2006 world series, that trade would have been a classic bold and beautiful move. When combined with the reluctance to add payroll for Burnett, it does bring up the question of whether Jocketty was really so anti-youth development and cost controlled players as he has been portrayed in recent years. More importantly, it brings up the question of whether the problem was with Jocketty or with DeWitt not endorsing smart moves proposed by the baseball-operations side because of the cost of such moves.
- Now the search for a new GM begins and with it, the prime question of whether LaRussa will stick with the Cards in 2008 and onward plays a key roll. Question is, do you come to LaRussa and ask that he stay and give him a voice in choosing the next GM?
- John Mozeliak (1) Terry Ryan (2) and Paul DePodesta (3)
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Terry Ryan
by azruavatar on Oct 4, 2007 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I'm not sold on Mozeliak either
by chuckb on Oct 4, 2007 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on whether you want Tony back
That said, if this really is a full regime change then it is time to start thinking a bit farther afield and in cases like that Depodesta and others move up my list.
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't --
by chuckb on Oct 4, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...I salute you...
by cardschinmusic on Oct 5, 2007 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
C-ya Walt
by Zubin on Oct 4, 2007 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nicely done, Larry.
And I second your summation about Mr Jocketty. Amiration, respect and gratitude - that's how I will remember him. Thanks a bunch, Walt. It has been a great run and we finally reaped the ultimate prize. All in all, an amazing era of Cardinals baseball. The time for change comes in every aspect of life, but in the short-term the transition may be a rough ride.
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 4, 2007 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What does this mean?
Walt saw this: Dewitt saying he could up the payroll to 110-115. He claims they spent 102 last year. This means an 8-13MM increase in the payroll. The team needs an impact bat, 2 starters, and a shortstop. Even assuming you fill the rest of the roster with cheap guys, this leaves around $20MM for those 4 spots. This means dumpster diving time again for Walt. Even if you trade for Renteria and call him the impact bat (killing 2 birds with 1 stone) you have $14MM max to get 2 starting pitchers. So you sign Kyle Lohse and Joel Piniero. Now you have a $115MM payroll and a team that still won't make the playoffs. Your other choice, trade guys like Rolen and Edmonds for whatever you can get to clear up as much payroll space as possible to upgrade those pitchers or bat by a little. Now you have angered the millions of Rolen and Edmonds fans, and you still aren't good enough to make the playoffs in 2008.
I believe it was a no-win situation for Walt...just as it was the past 2 years. (oddly they won during one of those years) He wasn't going to be allowed to trade away any good minor league talent and he wasn't going to be given enough money to sign any real impact player. Yet he would have to make excuses every day to the fans and the press and to Tony for why he couldn't come up with something better.
Cards in 2009!!!
by Elvis on Oct 4, 2007 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting argument, but...
I'm thinking as I read that post that what if, as you and most of us agree, Wainer was deservedly givin a rotation slot in 2006 after winning the spring training competition? Would he have been groomed in the pen all season? Would we have had a reliable, fearless option to fill in for Izzy in the stretch run and playoffs? Would we have won the World Series or even gotten there w/o Wainer as the closer? The signing of Sidney Ponson seems to be one of the better moves for the Cards in 2006 if you use the thought process in your post.
Secondly, and along the same lines, what if Jocketty would have pulled Wainer from the pen to plug the rotation instead of trading for Weaver? Same argument, same results.
Anyway, good post and interesting read, just wanted to point out the other side by using the same line of thinking.
Bottom line, Jocketty did a great job for STL. Even if people think we're better off w/o him - and I surely am not in that group - nobody can question that.
by TheFranchise9 on Oct 4, 2007 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looking back
In 96 we went to the playoffs and only had 2.6 million in attendance. In 98 attendance was 3.2 million. Attendance stayed around or above 3 million from there on.
McGuire never succeeded in helping us with a playoff run, but his extra revenue enabled this team to compete and fulfill those trades and subsequent high contracts for Rolen and Edmonds. I don't know if this was Walt's intent - but it definitely had the largest effect.
by enoscountry on Oct 4, 2007 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
With Respect
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Baseball is luck
Don't act like Walt is the only lucky GM. They are basically all lucky. The good ones generally have big budgets. Big budgets hide mistakes better, because you can always buy an impact player aka... red sox and yankees drafting has not always been good but it does not matter. They can always sing an impact MLB player which helps stop problems.
Just think if the Cardinals could sing ARod and Josh Beckett this off season. Things look better a lot faster.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 4, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know there is not great GM in the game.
by azruavatar on Oct 4, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How?
That's not what I said at all. I think he made some great contributions.
However, I think he caught lightning in a bottle twice. Once, signing Albert by seeming accident (for which I give WJ no credit). And twice, when they signed Carp to a rehab contract after a few seasons of league average performance and above average stuff and he turned into Cy Young (for that one I give him some credit).
Without those 2 guys playing at way below their potential salaries, this franchise would have never had it's run of successful seasons and playoff appearances...espcially considering the state of the minors at that time.
I'm saying don't act like we are making a poor decision letting him go based on the string of playoff performances. Lighting struck twice and he assembled a team around them with the extra $85 million. Jim Bowden could have done the same.
An impressive move would have been taking those two gifts and figuring out how to make a team keep contending. At $100 million a year payroll, we shouldn't have multi-year rebuilding periods.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post, Larry
by sjoshi on Oct 4, 2007 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Again it should be asked
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vets vs. Youth
Juan Encarnacion is a cited example, and a great one. His contract was horrible from day one. John Rodriguez could have - and still could - produce at the exact same level, defense included, for a much, much smaller salary. That extra salary then is available for moves, now or later. Instead, they locked themselves up with a league average player for a high price tag. It doesn't matter that they didn't have a top notch prospect in line for the job - they didn't need one to out-perform Juan.
You could go back to 2002 and see the exact same problem with Tino Martinez. The guy was obviously in the downside portion of his career, but the Cards broke the bank for a guy that no one else was bidding on. Why? Because of his awesome experience, of course. Albert was entering his 2nd year and could have easily been plugged into 1st base instead of left field, where it's much easier to find offense in the free agent market anyway. But the Cardinals put a premium on the veteran leadership of Tino - which didn't exactly work out.
It's the continued desire to make moves, whether overpaying for free agents or trading away Haren and Barton for an injured veteran starter, that adds up over time. The Cardinals were very, very successful in using their strategy - but at some point, the credit card bills have to be paid.
by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know the argument
Many may not have been around when the Cards were known more for losing than winning. It was a completely different situation. I went to games at that time. Compared to now, it was like night and day in terms of fan interest and attendance.
by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeWitt
And getting young prospects to sign isn't a problem if you're building through the draft - they don't have a choice, unless they want to sit out a year. Very few of those guys have that kind of leverage.
Overall, it sounds like you're making the assumption that current ownership - which took over the horrible early 90's team, hired the people that turned it around, got a new stadium built, and won a world series - has either forgotten overnight what it takes to attract fans and revenue, or has lost the desire to win, and thus isn't trying anymore. Neither of those make any sense to me.
by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pls. name the guys we're supposed to
And a little lower attendance might not be a bad thing. I might be able to actually get a fershlugginer ticket when I visit STL.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 4, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
frustration and ego
Walt did a lot of good things in his tenure and presided over a run of success which will be hard to duplicate. I thank him and wish him well in a more free-spending, trade/free agent organization. The blocked trade mentioned by lboros for Vasquez is the best indication that he needs to move on to a place where he has a free hand.
I heartily agree with ballorg's #1 point. The newly imposed philosophy may be the correct one for the organization, but the puzzle will be finding the people with the baseball acumen to successfully implement it.
Let's all wish DeWitt well in the coming decision making phase of the process.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 4, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One other point
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Whomever the new GM is
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sure hope that isn't the case
This clutching to a dream that Anthony Reyes will become a competant MLB pitcher isn't going to help this franchise move forward. All he does is prevent them from getting anything for him in return as he becomes more expensive and less young.
If they hold onto him any longer, they'll be lucky to get anything for him in return.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends what you can get for him Hardcore
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a twist on the theme of the day
As Larry has pointed out, historically, it would take a miracle for Anthony Reyes to become anything more than a #4 starter and that is the ceiling.
If he was 3 years older, he'd be a prime candidate for some team to be a 'reclamation' project.
If we can get ANYTHING for him, jump at it. If anything, getting rid of Reyes will force the new GM to find a different solution for the rotation slot, not some guy setting records for losing.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing that
They're most likely thinking Jocketty was gonna trade Reyes for something, I dunno, more of a sure thing. Heck, Jocketty may have even told them that's what he was gonna do.
by sdrone on Oct 4, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I one of the PD articles
by DriverZn on Oct 4, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Walt's and Tony's plans, right?
by chuckb on Oct 4, 2007 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm really puzzled why Walt
was it just that his guy was moved out of the way for Luhnow? because his guy wasn't cutting it. was it the way his guy was moved out?
i really hope some one asks Walt these questions and more and Walt gives an honest answer. the fans deserve to know.
by gdm426 on Oct 4, 2007 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
An unmentioned point...
IF TLR says, "Sayonara," I'm hoping the Cards ink Jose Oquendo to a managerial contract ASAP... He's an outstanding teacher (vital if you've gotta get "younger") and apparently has the respect of your top player (among others... Eck, Rolen, and Speezer have also sung praises to "The Secret Weapon").
I'm sad to see Walt leave, but if he couldn't adapt to his bosses' personell decisions, he needed to leave. Thanks for the memories, and good luck in the future, WJ!
by The Ol Goaler on Oct 4, 2007 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oquendo's prime pupil
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prime pupil?
by sdrone on Oct 4, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but while JD was on the team
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brother of JD
by StLHugo on Oct 4, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, I understand
by sdrone on Oct 4, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless Mozeliak
by cardsrul on Oct 4, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would make room
by stl4all on Oct 4, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he was worried about a division foe
Besides which, I tend to think that he'd want his new manager to pick HIS staff -- not Tony's.
by chuckb on Oct 4, 2007 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did winning the World Series...
- As Larry pointed out in the post, it was only after all other options had failed that Larussa went to the Kids in 2006. Did Dewitt see the performance of the Kids as a justification for his and Lunhows view that focusses on player development and realize that Larussa/Jocketty were flawed for not utilizing them sooner.
- Winning the Series might have provided closure to the run the organization had. I noted last year that it felt like change was in the air. What the real disappointment is, is that we only won the series at the end of the run. If we had won it in 2004 or 2005 this change could have happened a year earlier.
by BigJawnMize on Oct 4, 2007 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Had we won
A. I question whether Haren would have been traded away to get Mulder
B. I think the Cards would have pushed harder to resign Edgar Renteria.
With those in place, the post-2004 Cards would be a very different looking team.
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with that
DeWitt won the World Series last year and didn't seem to want to push to improve the team the next year. He also let alot of players demanding money walk.
I can't help but feel that 2005 and 2006 wouldn't have happened had that been the case. Maybe we still have Haren (a blessing) and we have a 2007 rotation of Wainwright, Haren, Reyes, etc. I don't know.
But, the direction of this franchise took a dramatic turn the day Scott Rolen ran into the King of Seoul. A lot of money invested in your #2 offensive weapon went from a bargin to a burden overnight. Not having Rolen cost us a return trip to the World Series in 2005, almost cost us the division title in 2006 and his final trip to the DL in 2007 put the final nail in the Cardinals division hopes.
Think about it. How much better is that lineup with a healthy Scott Rolen in it? Look at his first half of 2006: .331/.398/.577/.975 OPS with 14 HRs, 28 2Bs and 57 RBIs. That's right in line with career norms, if not a tad better. He should still be in his offensive prime.
Instead, they keep having to try to patch him together in order to get something out of that $12 M a year they are giving him. He's been the 2nd highest paid player on this team since Opening Day 2005, yet they haven't gotten a full healthy season out of him since the collision.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent point about rolen
you can't blame the rolen thing on jocketty, nor on the owners. just one of those things. the cards got lucky with carpenter (who faced very long odds to come back from his injury in 2003), but unlucky w/ rolen; it all comes out in the wash.
by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the 2005-2006 offseason
It will be very interesting if the club uses the same argument in 2007-2008 to justify not making a move for a middle of the order hitter. Then again, given that Rolen is a fraction of his former self, it probably makes more sense to hold on to him and see if he can't at least put up numbers like he did in the first half of 2006.
by JMedwick on Oct 4, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's really remarkable because unlike most injury
A freak injury took a 'sure thing' talent wise from this team that could be accented with other lesser players being brought in into a serious need that has to be addressed.
If you stood on April 1, 2005 and looked at the 2008 Cardinals needs, a #2 offensive threat to backup Pujols wouldn't likely be a concern. Factoring in wear and tear and age for the position Rolen plays, you still wouldn't expect his slugging percentage to drop .200 points in 2 years span. You wouldn't expect it to be only slightly higher than David Eckstein's.
A simple twist of fate.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't call it freak
This was the same shoulder that knocked him out of the 2002 playoffs folling his collision with Cintron. I don't blame the 2002 playoffs on the loss of Scott Rolen. We didn't seem to have much wind left in our sails following the Kile heartbreak and the loss of Jack Buck.
But, Rolen's loss was definitely a nail in the coffin.
Same shoulder cost us huge in 2 different playoffs and he really limped through the others.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different injuries
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
He had some injury questions already when Walt traded for him and extended him EIGHT years.
I love Scott and still admire him.
But, I do feel that a manager (and especially a CEO) of any company should be held accountable for thier results and actions...regardless of what ifs and what could have beens.
WJ locked up an injury prone player and a sizeable portion of our payroll for a large span of years. Rolen had a large part in getting us to the playoffs but washed on almost everyone of them save a heroic home run in the 2006 WS and a good LCS in 2004. He went 0/15 in the 2004 WS and if I recall was a little banged up then.
I don't fault WJ severely for this decision, but still feel he should be accountable for this and other decisions.
It is how I would feel about an unsuccessful money manager. If my Money manager told me he was sure it would be great to put 15% of my nest egg into XYZ product and it tanked, I wouldn't be mad or think he was stupid/unqualified. However, I wouldn't return my money to either the investment or the same money manager.
(not that I'd really leave my investing in the hands of a money manager!)
Rolen has only played over 150 games once since we acquired him.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No No No No No No No.
Your point about the 2004 WS is valid, however. Rolen was a little banged up, with a knee/calf thing, if I remember correctly. Even with that, though, does the team make it to the Series without Scott? Do they win 105 games that year? I would guess the answer to both of those questions is no. That team, as a whole, appeared to be gassed by the time they got past the Stros, and to put that at the feet of Rolen is to ignore the overall situation. What about the terrible pitching? What about the fact that Carpenter wasn't even available? There were plenty of things that ruined that team's WS chances; Rolen was a huge part of what got you there.
The Cardinals gave Pujols a big long contract, and all we've heard the last couple of years is about the constant, nagging leg/foot problems he has. Would you consider that an injury history? Would another extension for him be too much of a risk? Do his constant hamstring problems indicate that he'll choke to death on a chicken bone? To claim Rolen had prior indicators that his career was going to take an injury caused downturn is to completely ignore actual reality, in favor of pure revisionism.
I happen to agree with you that Walt leaving isn't the worst thing in the world, and that some of his decisions haven't been golden. But to use that particular example, with that argument, is just terrible.
by the red baron on Oct 4, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes yes yes yes yes
Rolen had back problems prior to his Cardinal years. Back problems IS an indicator for a shortened career and a quicker decline trajectory. Therefore, future injuries are not unforseen. A long-term investment in a player with joint/back problems is not wise.
I wasn't putting the WS or playoff losses on Scott. I'm saying the man hasn't made it healthy to a series yet...and that WJ should be accountable on some level for it.
Therefore, I would say my investment analogy would be more similar to a guy who simply looks at a 5 year pattern on a stock and calls it sound despite indicators it's due for a downturn. Not unforseen by any means.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When was the last time we heard Scott Rolen
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Rolen
I do no blame shoulder troubles on his back, but calf/leg/knee problems could certainly stem from it. Low back problems almost always cause tight hamstrings and poor flexability. Tight hamstrings can lead to all those problems.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
meant to say
I doubt he would gripe about his back if he wouldn't admit his shoulder was a problem.
by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS
by BigJawnMize on Oct 4, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lamping hired Jocketty
So the jury is still out on DeWitt's upper-management personnel descisions, IMO.
by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think DeWitt was managing partner
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad.
by BigJawnMize on Oct 4, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lamping
I am not necessarily criticizing him, I just really don't know what he does. Anyone???
by Elvis on Oct 4, 2007 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From what I gather
by StLHugo on Oct 4, 2007 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent, excellent, excellent post
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 4, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OT
by Valatan on Oct 4, 2007 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the Memories - Walt
Antonetti and Girardi the announcement will be made at Amighetti's
by rajah424 on Oct 4, 2007 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Divisions within the organization
While it is impossible for me to argue that player development and drafting aren't critically important to a MLB team, it still irritates me considerably as a paying fan (I live in Columbia, MO and went to 7 games this year in St. Louis) that with a new stadium (higher concessions revenue too) and more radio revenue (switch away from KMOX) that the Cards were not able to significantly increase their payroll. This would seem even more important in light of the Cubs increasing their revenue upward to close to $200 million.
Is the assumption that Jocketty did not place emphasis on player development and drafting? or just had not been that successful at it?
Ultimately, you need both to be a successful franchise. It would seem that Bill DeWitt thinks that, if Oakland and Minnesota can field competitive teams without spending more money on payroll, he can also. One problem with that is that the other teams in your division must have the same mindset to allow you to be competitive. With the Cubs acting more like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets, where will that leave the Cards in the NL Central in the coming years? The immediate future doesn't look bright for this franchise if DeWitt plans to keep the payroll hostage to this strategy. How long will fans watch a mediocre team on the field. What will happen if attendance wanes to 1.5 to 2 M fans per year instead of the 3.5 M that the Cards drew this year? Won't that cut into the Cards revenue stream?
by Wahoo on Oct 4, 2007 1:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Irritation?
by sdrone on Oct 4, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Transcript of the presser
http://www.stltoday.com/blogs/sports-bird-land/2007/10/dewitt-unabridged-the-parting-ways-presser/
by StLHugo on Oct 4, 2007 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeez, the negativity over this
Please, take a few days to breathe before writing the suicide note.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 4, 2007 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
at this point
first, is this a message to tlr, or is ownership just coincidentally getting rid of their gm at a time that their manager is undecided about returning?
do they want him to stay? want him to leave? don't care? respect and like what he's done, so are willing to allow him to leave on his own terms? anxious about the drinking issues this year, but unwilling to make a statement about it?
second, the last time i got up in arms about the departure of a manager was when whitey left. no, i'm not going to lament his departure here and talk about the good old days. i am going to say that what i am concerned about is a period of mediocrity similar to the one that followed the rat's departure.
we can debate until we're blue in the keyboard jock's effectiveness as a gm, but it's safe to say that (just like many gms) he made moves ranging from downright pathetic to virtually brilliant. gms come and go, so i think that all we can hope is that we get another that helps to bring us the level of success that jock brought.
by sdesserman on Oct 4, 2007 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i didn't see
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/256DD23D9A96E6688625736A0014BD2D ?OpenDocument
by sdesserman on Oct 4, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Saw that
by StLHugo on Oct 4, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TERRY RYAN
I THINK TERRY RYAN WOULD BE A VERY GOOD GENERAL MANAGER FOR THE CARDINALS. I THINK ALLARD BAIRD WOULD BE A VERY BAD ONE...
RYAN'S SUCCESS, HOWEVER, WOULD DEPEND ON HOW WELL LUNHOW WOULD WORK WITH A RYAN REGIME!!!
by TOLAXOR on Oct 4, 2007 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you don't have to yell
by Handsome B Wonderful on Oct 4, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what's better
Often imitated, never replicated, the one, the only -- TOLAXOR.
by azruavatar on Oct 4, 2007 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like the yelling comments
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 5, 2007 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re-imagining 2008 without Jock
With Jocketty gone, some of the recent assumptions we've made are probably no longer valid. If TLR and Duncan are gone -- and maybe if they are not -- I think we can assume that:
- we won't be making any silly trade for Matt Morris in the off-season
- that Chris Duncan, and perhaps Rick Ankiel, will be at least considered as tradeable commodities
- the recent pronoucements that the team would like to have Joel Pineiro back as the 5th starter, and does not consider Anthony Reyes part of our plans for the future, are (in the words of the Nixon Administration) "no longer operative"
- So Taguchi and Aaron Miles may be looking for jobs
by tdawg on Oct 4, 2007 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Busch Thursday Afternoon 3:30
Also - am I wrong in suggesting that it was Livan Hernandez that was part of the Vasquez deal, not Orlando (El Duque)?
by STLEdge on Oct 4, 2007 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In all the hosannas about Walt's intergity...
by royalsreview on Oct 4, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Farewell to Jocketty
Two weeks ago I argued that Jocketty ought to be let go, and most of the people here attacked me for suggesting the unthinkable. Oh well.
by tarakas on Oct 5, 2007 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
....uhhhh....
by cardschinmusic on Oct 6, 2007 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries
In the offseason, they knew:
Rolen had been injured for much of 2006
Edmonds had been injured for much of 2006
Carpenter had issues with his elbow
Encarnacion was having surgery
Pujols has battled injuries for years
Catchers can miss time, and they had no real backup for Molina.
by tarakas on Oct 7, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs


















