Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:





sir walter

it never ends, does it . . . . already i feel like this off-season has lasted a whole month.

on tuesday i received answers from jeff luhnow to my latest batch of questions about the farm system. i'd been planning all along to post them today; in light of yesterday's announcement you might find them particularly interesting (esp. the next-to-last question). scroll down; they're in the post directly below this one. additional discussion at Future Redbirds.

as for sir walter: above all, i will miss his patience. it might seem like a strange thing to say, insofar as jock's ouster apparently was precipitated by his unwillingness to wait for the kids to develop. but i always thought jocketty had the ideal pace for a general manager. he was like de niro's character in The Deer Hunter --- known for taking down his prey with one shot. he tracks without haste, without worry, seemingly without doubt. others might cover twice as much ground, but it's wasted effort, all for show --- they chase dead ends, squander rounds on wild shots, and lose kills they might otherwise have got. this guy just trudges along with his rifle dangling at his shoulder and his senses open to the world --- doesn't hurry, doesn't call attention to himself in any way, just surveys the field and waits for his opening. when he finally makes his move, you damn well take notice.

that was jock at his best. beginning in 1999, he broadened the cardinals' talent base through a series of stunningly advantageous trades:

  1. looper and spare parts for edgar renteria
  2. a bunch of nobodies for darryl kile and dave veres
  3. juan acevedo and spare parts for fernando vina
  4. bottenfield and kennedy for jim edmonds
  5. tatis and reames for steve kline and dustin hermanson
  6. lankford for woody williams
  7. polanco and spare parts for scott rolen
  8. narveson for larry walker
that sequence of moves rivals the one that bing devine and bob howsam orchestrated back in the 1960s to assemble the original El Birdos. according to steve treder of the Hardball Times, "In the history of baseball, there has never been a championship team so dependent upon clever trade acquisitions as the 1960s Cardinals." the 2004-06 cardinals might run a close second. nearly all his acquisitions were 30 or younger, in their prime and positioned to be long-term contributors to the franchise.

jocketty also deserves credit for locking up pujols for most of his prime after the 2003 season --- incredibly far-sighted move. throughout his 13 years at the helm, jock always projected an air of steady calm, almost never acting out of panic. it happened maybe only once --- when he made a risky trade for mark mulder one day after the pitcher he really wanted, tim hudson, got dealt to the braves. it was the last trade of any consequence that jocketty made, the last one that would have a long-term impact upon the franchise --- the one, in the end, that proved to be one trade too many. since then --- except for one blessedly, memorably fortunate october --- it has been all downhill. the mulder trade was a sign that jocketty's prey had learned to detect his approaching footstep and stay out of range; he was no longer able to sneak up on them and get off a clean shot. that trade probably seemed like a clean shot to jock at the time --- in its outlines, it very much resembled the darryl kile trade --- but the prey had adapted. walter never regained the advantage.

the mulder deal marked a turning point not only in that sense, but also in this one: it put the cards on an irrevocable win-now footing. prior to 2004, the cards and their fans never took october for granted. after their first playoff appearance in half a decade in 2000, the team barely made it back in 2001 and repeated in 2002 (the year kile died) only via a monumental act of collective will. after the depressing and fruitless 2003 season, the cards were written off as non-contenders entering 2004; indeed, in their big trade that off-season the cards gave up veterans (drew/marrero) for youth (marquis/wainwright/king). the transaction wasn't designed to pay quick dividends, but it did --- and (as i noted a couple weeks back) we're still reaping the profits and will be for years to come. . . . .

i'm digressing. after coming so close in 2004, the cards' horizon --- the fans' and the front office's --- seemingly shortened. after 105 wins and a world series appearance, simply making the playoffs no longer cut it; dominance was now the standard, and closing the deal in october the paramount goal. were we spoiled? i don't think so; st louis hadn't hoisted a championship flag in almost 25 years. we wanted it badly and we got our wish, but the intensified focus on short-term returns commensurately diminished the investment in the future. we made the tradeoff willingly, and it was worth it, but the organization couldn't sustain the win-now approach indefinitely --- no organization can, 'cepting the yankees. walter, though, couldn't or wouldn't shift out of that mode.

a lot of observers still don't see the need to change; they think the cardinals can stay on top forever, and would do so if only the owners weren't such scrooge mcducks. (a lot of these people, comically enough, are the same ones who denounce spendy teams like the cubs and yankees and red sox for trying to buy a championship.) i addressed that issue on monday, and i'd like to revisit it today with a small thought exercise. go through it with me; it know it won't change anyone's opinion, because opinions are incredibly hardened in these matters, but just go along with it anyway. humor me. let's say the owners had given walt the resources to sign any pitcher he wanted this off-season ---- weaver, suppan, miguel batista, ted lilly, jason schmidt, take your pick. do you realize who this signee would have replaced in the rotation? not kip wells; he was the cards' first off-season pickup, inked to a deal on november 28, and upon his acquisition tony immediately declared him the #2 starter. nor would this hypothesized signee have displaced anthony reyes; the cards needed at least one minimum-wage earner in the rotation for payroll relief, and reyes had shown enough promise in 2006 to merit first shot at that role. he went out and earned his spot in the rotation with a 3-0, 2.70 spring-training performance. it goes without saying that carpenter wouldn't have been the odd man out (duh --- i can't believe i even sacrificed any fingertip cells typing out that sentence). so if a high-priced free agent were in the rotation, he would have taken the place of one of the 2007 cardinals' two best starters, looper or wainwright --- and it probably would have been wainwright.

remember now, the team went into the off-season planning to bring him back as a reliever (see this post from november 13), and not entirely without reason --- izzy's return was far from certain, and wainwright was a proven success as a setup man / closer but an unknown quantity as a starter. at about the same time, tony / dave began talking up looper as a starter --- that trial balloon was floated in mid-november, and the cards never changed their tune. so if they'd signed, say, miguel batista, they very likely would have entered 2007 with a rotation of carp, batista, wells, reyes, and looper, with wainwright setting up isringhausen. and after carpenter got hurt and reyes/wells flamed out, wainwright still probably wouldn't have gotten a chance to start. if he were throwing well as the 8th-inning guy, then tony would never have moved him --- la russa doesn't mess with success in the bullpen. and if wainwright weren't throwing well? then he'd just be a struggling 2d-year pitcher with 0 big-league starts on his resume --- not the kind of guy who's likely to displace mike maroth or joel pineiro on tony/dave's watch.

so it was the owners' refusal to overpay for jeff suppan or miguel batista that opened a rotation slot for wainwright --- nay, that forced him to the rotation. some regard that as cheapness on the owners' part; i consider it a healthy commitment to player development. the owners declared that commitment over a year ago; it's the commitment jocketty refused to make, and the reason he had to go. he wasn't necessarily hostile to player development --- he had many opportunities to trade away rasmus and reyes the past couple of years, and no doubt got offers on hawksworth and garcia and various other prospects; he didn't bite. he was a responsible steward of the team's young players. but --- particularly after 2004 --- he kept putting obstacles in their way, blocking their paths with one dead-weight veteran or another. when, heading into 2006, the cards had an opening in the rotation and two youngsters (reyes and wainwright) available to fill it, walter still felt compelled to add sid ponson. when he had tyler johnson available to get lefties out, he felt ricardo rincon was an upgrade; when he had john rodriguez and chris duncan available as outfielders, he still thought the cardinals needed juan encarnacion and larry bigbie. think about that last one for a second: larry bigbie was anointed the starting left-fielder heading into 2006. if he doesn't get hurt --- if he holds down the spot as a left-handed version of encarnacion --- then chris duncan never gets a chance to play.

that's the real cost of overindulging the "win now" mentality: it's not the monetary cost, it's the opportunity cost. you expend the opportunity on a proven mediocrity and thereby deprive a younger but potentially better player of a chance to help your team. that very pitfall nearly cost the cardinals everything in 2006. they began with an opportunity in the rotation, and wainwright earned it with a stellar spring --- but they spent the opportunity on ponson, who failed miserably. as the season progressed they squandered opportunity after opportunity on injured (mulder and isringhausen) and failed (marquis) veterans, to the point that they nearly drove the team off a cliff. in octber --- completely out of options, and as a last resort --- they finally gave the opportunities to younger players. lo and behold, the kids outperformed their elders and helped bring home a championship.

now --- do i hold the owners blameless in all of this? absolutely not. the baseball people in the organization wanted aj burnett back in december 2005, and burnett badly wanted to come to st louis, but the owners refused to pony up; two years later, his contract looks like a bargain. a few days after they cheaped out on burnett, jocketty engineered a deal that would have sent marquis and suppan (both in the last year of their deal) to arizona for javy vazquez (under club control for at least 3 years) and a dbacks' prospect. it was a vintage jocketty maneuver --- creative and daring --- and it would have given the cards two formidable workhorses (carp and vazquez) through at least 2008. but the cardinal owners insisted on getting cash back in the deal, and the dbacks refused to provide it; the deal fell through. good on walt; bad on the owners. (arizona fans can be glad that dewitt & co balked; the dbacks got a much better package from the white sox a few days later, obtaining el duque, luis vizcaino, and chris young in exchange for vazquez.)

i gave this opinion on monday: "raising payroll isn't the main solution going forward. it's much simpler, and more complicated, than that: they need to do a better job of evaluating talent and developing players." jocketty apparently didn't see it that way; he saw the problem mainly as one of payroll and sought a payroll-oriented fix. he's entitled to his opinion, and i'm sure we all respect it --- even those of us who disagree. i also respect him for stating his priorities clearly, and forcing this issue to a head; his honesty enabled the franchise to make an informed decision about the future. it's what you'd expect of the man. he has always been a first-class act and a figure of integrity . . . . well, maybe it wasn't so first-class of jock and his posse if they were really executing reprisals against people for merely talking to jeff luhnow, as has been reported. but if that's the worst thing you can say about a guy, he's got stronger character than most. admiration, gratitude, respect --- these are the feelings i'll always have for mr jocketty. wherever he might turn up in the future, whether in or out of baseball, i wish him the very best. it has been incredibly rewarding to have him on our side for these last 13 years.

thanks for everything, sir walter.

0 recs | Comment 175 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

call me a lemming if you must
but i agree with almost every thing you say. except that i dont think it was Walt & Walt alone who wanted the "dead weight vets" playing for the Cards and blocking the kids from playing full time.

dont you think because Tony La Russa & Dave Duncan are in charge of the team had something to do with why Walt wanted the vetran players over unproven rookies? They are both "win now" guys. and they feel the best way to win now is with proven vets. i see Walt getting vetran players on the team as Walt's way of just trying to keep Tony & Dave happy. i dont think they were telling him what to do, but they deffinatly told him what they wanted, and Walt did his best to get them what they wanted.

he was the best GM for the job as long as Tony & Dave were in charge. now with the recent turn towards playing the kids, Walt clearly isn't the right guy to run the Birds. as sad as that makes me its true. which also means the days of Tony & Dave running the Cards is over as well. i'm going to miss them all. they did so much for us fans. they brought us so much joy & happiness. and you cant put a price tag on that.

from the bottom of my heart, i thank you Walt. thank you for all the joy & happiness.
thank you so much for all the great memories that will last a life time.

it's been a hell of a ride. sadly, all good things must come to an end.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 4, 2007 4:44 AM EDT   0 recs

Agreed
I think you hit the nail on the head. Tony and Dunc said...get me him or this type of player, and Walt did his best to accomplish the task. The dead weight veterans are what the uniformed guys wanted. (not all were dead-weight obviously)

I wish Walt the best and Tony and Dunc too. (since they will likely leave as well.)

Moz would not be a bad choice as the next GM, but I am leaning toward Ryan. (this guy did alot with little for the Twinkies)

I think Dewitt had to make a choice. Jocketty or Lunhow. He went with Lunhow. Old School vs. New School, Vets vs. player development, Scouting vs. Stats...I hope he chose wisely. I always liked the mix of the two, but that is difficult to maintain in today's game.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Oct 4, 2007 9:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ryan
Getting Terry Ryan as a GM could be fantastic.  The talent he was able to assemble in Minnesota (with an owner who is truly a cheapskate) was nothing short of remarkable.

In any case, if this in indeed the end of the Jocketty/TLR/Dunc era, I wish them all well and thank them for one of the greatest eras in StL history. Two other wishes:  1) they do not end up with another NL Central team, and 2) no more trying to sell us on Kip Wells/Larry Bigbie as an "upgrade" of any sort.  Please, stop that madness.  

One other note: today is a perfect example of why I read VEB. Lboros' posts are eloquent and well thought out, as are the other contributors and frequent posters.  Thanks for not just being a trash-talking blog; we can listen to Jim Rome for that.

Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by cardsfanindenver on Oct 4, 2007 10:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll loose a lot of
respect for La russa and Duncan if they don't go. You just know the Mulder trade was made in the first place because Duncan and La russa didn't see that Haren could fill the bill and a proven starter was needed. And you know that the Kennedy signing was because La Russa didn't think Beliard was adequate at 2nd. La Russa probably recomended that Kennedy be the one that he should go after. These two moves really hurt the Cards and you know they had a lot to do with Jocketty's departure. La Russa might be good manager as far as stragedy and handling veteran players but I have never seen him as having a keen eye for talent.

by ridgesee on Oct 4, 2007 7:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually
La Russa said that Duncan was firmly against trading Haren.

by spants on Oct 4, 2007 9:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't know that
and if that's true, then Duncan's the brains of the three. Also, if that is true, Larussa must have wanted the trade or Jocketty certainly wouldn't have made it with Larussa and Duncan disaproving. What made that trade so sickening was, I had heard comment three or four times on sport shows that Mulder' velosiity was down (he had slumped pretty badly in the second half of the season). just a day or two before the trade was announced I heard Bobby Cox interviewed on WSB Atlanta sports, commenting on the trade they had made for Hudson. In response to a question he stated that the Braves could have had either Mulder or Hudson but chose Hudson, because they felt that Mulder was possibly damaged goods. If I as a casual fan new this and the Braves orginiation knew this, why did not the Cardinal's experts know this. When I heard of the Mulder trade a few days later i feared the worst.

by ridgesee on Oct 4, 2007 9:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

These are my main concerns:
  1. Having an idea for a new direction is one thing, actually being good at it is quite another.  Many teams have attempted to go for a player development approach, while certainly some have succeeded, others have quickly succumbed to persistent mediocrity.  Granted, this can happen with any approach, but intuitively it seems easier to be competent taking a more veteran intensive approach, rather than relying on a higher than average percentage of your prospects working out.
  2. Highly competent people can be awfully hard to find.  Even with all their flaws, Jocketty, Tony, and Duncan, were all highly competent people who had a plan, philosophy, and had the knowledge and experience to make things work more often than not. Even if DeWitt and Co have a good idea, the hard part is finding the core personnel to make the idea work.
  3. Assuming that the front office shakeup and change of philosophy will prevent the organization from filling immediate, short-term needs, we're essentially writing off the next two seasons.  Unless people are drastically underestimating the prospects we have, we're just not going to be contending (even in the NL central) anytime soon.   Granted, the status quo's hand over the next two years wasn't much better, but as stated above the people we had created a track record showing that they knew what they were doing more often than not.
  4. General sadness due to the end of a very happy era of Cardinal baseball.  Even though I'm only 26 years old, I will consider myself damn blessed if I ever see another era of Cards baseball as great as the Jocketty/La Russa era.  I think it is pretty safe to say that we're about to see the most drastic overhaul of the Cardinals organization in over a decade.  God only knows who else amongst what we consider "the core" of the team will leave in the next year or two. I knew that this era would end someday sooner rather than later, but it's still incredibly sad when I realize that this day is here.

by bailorg on Oct 4, 2007 5:06 AM EDT   0 recs

Why so negative?
  1. The Giants and Astros went "all Vet" and that didn't turn out well.  Nothing says one approach is always the right answer.
  2. Why make this assumption.  What I take the change in direction to mean is we will greatly reduce the trading away of young talent.  It does not mean we will suddenly not be players in the FA market, or via trade if the right option is there.
  3. I am only in my 30s and this is the 2nd great run I have witnessed.  The 80s were some pretty good years also.
There is no reason to fear change...

by DriverZn on Oct 4, 2007 6:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jocketty
While I can understand a sense of apprehension with this change, I don't see the need to think that next year (plus two or three) is suddenly more bleak today than it was yesterday.  

What exactly was Walt going to do for 2008 to improve this team that some other GM can't do?  Walt's best moves, always, were making trades.  He had nothing to trade with for next year without giving up on 2009 and beyond.  And even if he were to trade away Rasmus or Perez or whatever for some vets - how many trades would it take to make this team competitive next year?  Picking up 2 or 3 average or better starting pitchers plus a power hitting corner outfielder isn't going to be easy.

I'm sorry, but 2008 was pretty much a lost cause with or without Walt.  The organization decided to work for the future now instead of later - as far as I'm concerned, it's the right move.  There is always risk with uncertainty, sure.  But, as Branch Rickey said - it's better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late.  I'd say the same with Walt.  Let's move forward so that success comes back sooner rather than later.

by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 8:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Excellent post bailorg
You display wisdom well beyond your 26 years. I don't think you are being negative--just asking very good questions and being very realistic about the magnitude of change. It's not simply Walt leaving, it is a sea change in the organization approach.

I try to take the long view and all things, and I truly believe that organizations, industries, and societies move in cycles. I think we are seeing the beginning of a new cycle in Cardinal baseball.

I don't have high hopes for 2008, but this organization might surprise us. I feel better about 2009 when a significant chunk of payroll opens up while Rasmus, Anderson, Garcia, Perez, Walters, Ottavino, Hoffpauir, Mather, Greene, etc. are a year older, and hopefully a full year better as players.

by Hungry Jack on Oct 4, 2007 1:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks again
To walt for a great job during his tenure.
To lb for providing the best content and reader forum on our favorite subject.

It's easy to imagine the strife in the front office heading into hot stove season. Following the thrill of a major league championship, they struggle through a torturous season to finish sub .500, and the projections don't look so good.  But player development efforts have really only percolated up to double A, with Memphis firmly entrenched at the bottom.  With precious little talent in reserve, polarity over the question of whether to promote it, or trade it must be rife with resentment.

The decision regarding SS alone provides a great example: a) re-sign eck and block the promotion path, b) promote ryan, or c) trade talent for renteria.  Those choices can not simply be defined according to the size of the budget.

If the front office can't find agreement on questions like that, then they have to change players themselves.  Much better to try and get that straight before hot stove season, than afterward.  The team on the field has worked through steady and substantial turnover throughout walt's era.  There is no reason to expect the team in the office to not go through some of the same.

It was a great run, and you brought us the championship we had high hopes for in 04-05, and found unimaginable in 06.  Thanks again.  

Play Roy Hobbs Everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Oct 4, 2007 6:18 AM EDT   0 recs

...Dead weight...
Im confused about who the "dead weight vets" are and were? Are we talking about injured vets like Kennedy, Rolen, Molina, Edmunds, Spezio (yes Spezio was "injured".... and one of the best clutch guys we could have backing up the infield?)

And who exactly did they block?

Was it Percival, Franklin, Springer, Isringhausen or Looper in the way of younsters.

Wainwright got his shot since Isringhasen returned healthy. Pineiro looks promising and got a shot to replace Maroth who CLEARLY was an "August hope and prayer" from Leyland when NOBODY was ready to throw the towel in yet! He bombed, but did he stand in anybodys way with the CD on the line when he arrived.

Wellemeyer dominated in his last 10 appearances. Well, thats most of the staff except for Johnson, Flores and Thompson who blocked no one. They were up and down this year, like pitchers most teams have on the staff every year.

Did vets block Chris Duncan from learning how to catch the ball, or Reyes from dominating at the MLB level, did they block the long shot Ryan from getting some starts to show he still has a long ways to go, did they block any 2A or 3A pitcher you can think of we had ready for the majors or any hitter from proving they were the next Pujols. Ankiel got the shot he earned and deserved. Injuries to vets actually helped some kids get a shot?!

I thought maybe Mather, Bozied and Hoffpauir deserved a call-up. Maybe Washington and Stavinoa? Along with Worrel, Barden and Gonzalez, spring training is looking pretty damn good provided other guys get healthy.

They hoped Keisler could get it done, Cavazos, Falkenborg, all arrived with the same hopes and chances to stick the same way Ludwick did.

If we're only talking about Jaun (who could have been on any HEALTHY team and survived) or Miles whom Joe Buck called the 25th man MVP, or Eckstein only hitting .309 or Guch hitting .290 (mainly off the bench), then Id have to say that barring the onslaught of injuries and plain bad luck, the Cards had a pretty good year.

To say the vets are dead weights and stood in the way of "kids" is just wrong.

I give bailorg all credit for his #4 statement and a high five....he said it all there. Excuse the typos!

Youth movement or not, I want Carpenter, Speezio JEd and Rolen back in '08...yeah, those old guys that play the game like pros.

by cardschinmusic on Oct 4, 2007 7:10 AM EDT   0 recs

Dead weight vets
he mentioned Ponson last year -- there's Wells, Maroth, Kennedy to a lesser degree, Wellemeyer (dominant in his last 10?, please!), Eckstein playing every damned day in September, Edmonds, Juan, Miles (see Kennedy) -- even the flirting w/ Jeff Weaver, Jeff Suppan, and Miguel Batista.

If your point is that there aren't that many "kids" for these dead weight vets to be standing in the way of -- I think that's LB's point as well.  We need more kids and fewer dead weight vets.  But they're still dead weight.

by houstoncardinal on Oct 4, 2007 9:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

veterans vs. the kids
It's one thing to get a proven veteran who is above league average (see Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker) but it's another to spend money on guys like Wells, Juan, Ponson, etc. who's production could easily be replaced by a cheaper rookie. As houstoncardinal said, we need to develop more of these kids and Walt/Tony are not going to do that without exhausting all other avenues. Not to beat on David Eckstein, but signing him over using Ryan in 2008 is exactly the kind of move that wastes $4-5M and makes the team no better. If you can't sign or trade for a player significantly better than the options you have in-house, then don't spend the money and block any growth of your young players.  

by lefty fan on Oct 4, 2007 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not just performance
The "weight" of these players isn't only the performance issue.   It's the pay.

While some may argue that Encarnacion had a decent year compared to his career and was an average outfielder...was he worth $5 million?   Was he worth $4.6 million more than a AAAA player we could have had for the minimum?

Even having a great rebound year...Was Izzy worth 8.75 million dollars for 65 innings?  

After one semi-successful season converting from a failed starter to a reliever prior this one and a fast start this year, was it worth it to lock up Franklin through his 37 year old season at 2.5 a year?

When it was obvious we were no longer in contention, was it worth it to bring in a Kelly Stinnett over getting our youth some experience?   What was the point of that?  What about Cairo?   What was the point of that move?

Dead weight is correct.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Furthermore
Was it worth it to give Edm*u*nds that extension last year "so he would retire a Cardinal"? Anyone else think he would have still re-upped for one last year this year? Maybe at a little cheaper given his performance? Throwing money at veterans just because your manager has preferences is exactly how you *don't* win in the margins.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You talk about the need to save money
and then bash the inexpensive Encarnacion deal, which was meant to fill a gap while we waited for young players to mature.  Who was ready in AAA to fill Encarnacion's role at the time he was signed?  Others have pointed to Eckstein as though it was decided that he would be signed next year.  No one knows whether Walt would have done that.  That is pure speculation....

And arguing against the need for a quality veteran bullpen--give me a break.   If we don't have reliable starting pitchers, we certainly need a strong bullpen.  And our bullpen is a relative bargain compared to other teams.  Which young players would you put in their place?  Were you that impressed with the minor league relievers to hand that stressful job over to them?

It's easy to talk about the idealism of investing in youth.  No one is going to disagree about the need to develop a farm system.  But it gets more complicated when you are pressed to put together a winning team from the youth that we have available.  

Clear out the dead weight--good cliche.  But what about the reality of playing games next year and keeping our core veterans interested in staying with us by maintaining a winning team?

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 10:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Who?
Are you kidding?  There were about a million guys who could have come close to Juan's production for 400k a year.   Juan was not cheap!   He's going to make 7.5 million next year.   He certainly didn't deserve a long term contract.  

I would take 90% of Juan's performance for 425,000 a year and 4.5 million towards a player who actually produces marginal wins 8 days a week.

While we may not have had a ton of guys in our minors ready to play (although I would have opted for JRod over Juan), there were plenty out there.  For example, at the time of the Juan signing, out of favor Ryan Church was demoted to AA.   he could have been had for a bag of balls.  

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 10:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well that's still blocking youth
and that's not saving money.  This discussion is about those two things.  You are talking about acquiring veterans still.  I want to know who was ready at AAA to take Juan's place.  Who was he blocking?

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Youth
You keep asking who Juan was blocking - what about the fact that it was Walt's job to draft the players (or not trade them away) in order to have youth available in the future instead of needing Juan in the first place?  It works both ways.

by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 11:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm asking about what youth he was blocking
because that seems to be the point of the thread.  Acquiring other veterans may or may not have worked out.  The objections here have been mainly about youth.

And as to having people ready in the minors for pitching.  A lot of our pitching problems are due to either injuries or promising prospects not developing the way they should have, given their peripherals.

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Did you read the statement?
I said they could have acquired a ton of guys cheaper.

That's who he was blocking.   Guys with equal performance for less money.  

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

PS
at the time of Encarnacion's signing, Church was 26th, ML ready and undervalued by his organization prior to front office change.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Izzy worth it?
I say no, Izzy was not worth $8.75M for 65 innings. I hope whoever becomes the new GM moves away from the practice of paying retail for An Established Closer<sup>TM</sup&gt.

Granted, the Cardinals had no other options (read: kids on the farm), but it seems like every team has power bullpen arms in spades, except for the Cardinals.

Here's to hoping the Perez boy is the real deal and can start saving games in 2009 on the cheap. Then trade him after the 2013 season and bring in the next kid, and so on.

Is it really that difficult to develop one so-called closer every five years?

by 26thMan on Oct 4, 2007 10:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Have you looked at the bullpens
on other teams?  I think you'll have your answer.  We've been spoiled this year by a good bullpen.  It's obviously not easy if other teams are desperate to acquire good relievers.

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

teams like
You mean teams that have guys like Chad Cordero, Jose Valverde, Joe Borowski, JJ Putz, Bobby Jenks, Takashi Saito, David Weathers, Jonathon Papelbon, Jeremy Gregg, Juan Accardo, Bob Wickman, Manny Corpas...or how about Al Reyes?

All of those guys make less than Izzy.  Many of them outperformed him.   Most of them were made into closers after his last contract extension.

99% of relief pitchers are failed starters.   They are not groomed to be closers, they failed at starting and were the best of the rest.   Closers are manufactured out of smoke and mirrors by the likes of Billy Beane and such on a yearly basis.   It is one of the worst places to allocate your money.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Have you watched any of those guys pitch?
Hanging by a very thin thread:
Chad Cordero
Jose Valverde
Joe Borowski
David Weathers
Bob Wickman

Solid Closers
JJ Putz
Bobby Jenks
Takashi Saito
Jonathon Papelbon
Jeremy Gregg
Juan Accardo
Manny Corpas

I'd rather pay Izzy $8 M than face the real possibility of having Cordero, Valverde, Borowski, Weathers, or Wickman as the closer.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 4, 2007 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You sound
like 95% of Cardinal fans when they watch Izzy pitch.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You mean 2006 Izzy, right?
because in 2007, Izzy walked 28 guys in 65 IP and his ERA+ was 175.  In 2005, he walked 27 guys in 59 innings and had an ERA+ of 200.

In 2006 he was injured.

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I remember those
same conversations every year.

comments about number of baserunners, too comforatable of a lead for him to pitch in, etc...people always call him a rollercoaster ride.

it's probably undeserved...just like the off-the-cuff evaluation of those other team's closers.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I completely disagree
If you don't have a closer, you will not win in the postseason - period.  Izzy has been a stabilizing presence in a bullpen, like all other bullpens, is in a complete state of flux from year to year.

One of Tony's primary rules of bullpen building/management is starting with a solid closer and building from there.  He basically wrote the book on modern-day bullpen management.

Billy Beane has won nothing with his bargain basement closers.  And his current closer was groomed to be one in the minors.

Some teams get lucky:  Jenks, Valverde, etc...and they end up being reliable closers.

If you really will take a Manny Corpas, Al Reyes, Kevin Gregg, or Al Reyes over a healthy Izzy then I completely question your grasp of evaluating baseball rosters.

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not true
The White Sox one the World Series with Bobby Jenks...who had saved 6/8 chances prior to the series for an unstable bullpen.  

The Cardinals converted Wainright who had saved only 3/5 chances prior to the playoffs in another unstable bullpen.  

I only went back 2 seasons and found 2 examples...need I look farther?

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

how does that disprove what I said?
Jenks got hot at the right time and is currently a solid, upper end closer who many teams will pay a king's ransom for when he enters free agency.  

JJ Putz is another example.  

Again - Wainwright is a solid starter and became a lights-out closer.  He would not have been removed from the closer role if Izzy didn't return with a new hip.

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This and That
This discussion is probably a perfect microcosm of the types of disagreements going on behind closed doors in St. Louis.

In Jocketty's camp, you have the "I must pay dearly for a proven closer because we can't win without it" side.

In Lunhow's camp you have the "you don't have to overpay for a proven closer because you can go out and plug in a solid pitcher into the role and make them a closer who is just as effective" side.

by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 11:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I doubt
that bullpen management has been in question behind closed doors.

That's one thing that I trust Walt and LaDunc on.  Like I said, they've kind of written the book on it.

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Edit:
"I trusted Walt and LaDunc on" (::tears::)

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bullpen
I wasn't necessarily referring to the management of the bullpen, so much as the method of building it in the first place.

I can easily envision arguments between factions in the amount of money to spend on certain players, based upon gut vs. analysis.

by Robb on Oct 4, 2007 12:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If you think we are overpaying
for a good closer, you need to look at other winning team's budgets.  Do you know what a closer like Izzy could get?

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

1 guy
The guy who is due more money next year than Izzy is BJ Ryan.

The only ones who made more money this year are Gagne and Mariano.

Gagne and Ryan haven't worked out so well.  Rivera was awesome again this year but not if you listen to Yankee fans.   He might not be back.

Tell me, what do you think Izzy would get on the open market and who would pay him more than we are?

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ironic
that BJ Ryan was signed by a Moneyball disciple, JP Ricciardi.

Don't you think?

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 12:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Very
What was he thinking?

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You said
if you do not have a closer...you will not win in the post-season period.

I gave 2 recent examples of teams who went into the season with a brand-new unstable closer and took home the whole prize.

Smoltz was dominant upon conversion, Papelbon, Wainright, Myers...I imagine a ton of starters would make great closers.   They are a lot easier to come by than Mariano Rivera and Jason Isringhausen's agents would have u believe.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitchers like Smoltz,
papelbon, and Wainwright are easy to come by?

by sdrone on Oct 4, 2007 11:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope but pitchers
like my above list of closers is.

Smoltz and those ilk are not a dime a dozen, Myers and company are a little more common.  

Look at Franklin as another example.   Bad starter, great bullpen guy.

Also, consider this in the failed starter vs closer debate:

Jack Morris is not in the Hall of Fame.  Bruce Sutter is.   There is no doubt in my mind Jack Morris could do what Sutter could.   There is no doubt in my mind Sutter could never do what Jack Morris did.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Another note
do you really think that the 2007 edition of the St. Louis Cardinals would have won 78 games without its bullpen with Isringhausen as closer?  a healthy Izzy allowed Wagonmaker, a lights-out closer, to be our only sure thing in the rotation.  

Sure, many closers are failed starters.  But it takes a special player to pitch in the 9th inning consistently with success.

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And I'll bite
on your questioning of my understanding of a baseball roster.

Give me any one of those guys and the money.

Fine.

I'll take Manny Corpas, his 2.08 ERA and the difference in salaries.

I'll add the 8.25 million dollars difference from what Izzy makes to the allocation of virtually any position on the team and build a better combination towards winning than Izzy and whomever.

For example, we allocated $5 million a year to RF or 7.5 million for next year.   Who could we have instead for 13.75 to 16.25 million a year?  Would say, Manny Corpas + Adam Dunn win you more games than Izzy and Enc?

How about SS?   Would Izzy + Eck win you more games this last year than Renteria and Corpas?

2B?  Would Izzy and Miles/Kennedy/Ryan win you more games than Corpas and a $10 million second baseman?

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Cards have a closer
in the minors that will soon be in the bigs, closing out games (probably in 2009) for the minimum.

Until then, I'll spend the money on Izzy and the rotation.  

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 11:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd spend the money
on the rotation and the offense

and hope Josh Kinney, Springer, Franklin or some other schmo could hold it down for us...

especially considering the way the roster is shaping up so far for next year.

What's the point in picking up an $8 million dollar option on a closer who will turn 36 during a re-building year?  I might see somewhat of a point if it would make a difference between us winning 89 games and us winning 92 games but I doubt that will be the case.

How about spending that money on re-tooling the tool box instead of treading 3rd place water in the NL Central?

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 11:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that says it all
you think any old  "schmo" can be a closer.  Doesn't take any special talent or anything.

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 12:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup
I said "any old" schmo.   You should write political campaigns.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 4, 2007 12:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh I agree
that at this time, re-signing Izzy is questionable, but it depends on how much money is going to be allocated to upgrading the rotation and the offense.  If our payroll is upped to 120 million, we trade for a #2 starter (pipe-dream?) and we are expected to contend for the Central crown (which should take 85-90 wins again next year), I re-sign Izzy.  

by silent_bob on Oct 4, 2007 12:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

if you don't have strong starting pitchers
the bullpen is one of the best investments you can make.  Besides Izzy, all our other relievers are inexpensive.  There's no one in AAA who comes even close to their talent.  

Of that list, who had a lower ERA than Izzy?  Who had a higher percentage of saves?  And did they come from the minors (we have no one available to take his place from the minors) or were they veterans?

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

aaron miles --- classic deadweight vet
jeff nelson. junior spivey. ricardo rincon. larry bigbie. devi cruz. jorge sosa. miguel cairo. preston wilson. sid ponson. einar diaz. gary bennett.

that's just in the last 2 years.

encarnacion and looper were more expensive iterations of this phenomenon --- they didn't really improve the team, they simply hogged spots that younger but equally competent players might have filled.

i will agree that not all of these guys blocked true prospects, and i'll agree that tony / dave had a lot to do wtih the decision making. but given that track record of ineffective acquisitions, you would think jocketty might be open to trying things differently. he wasn't --- he wanted to keep doing things the same old way, even though circumstances had changed. that's why he had to go, and why tony / dave likely will follow him out the door.

by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 10:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

add deadweight: mark mulder version 2
the re-signing of mulder this past off-season is another very expensive case of deadweight vetism. i give walt a pass on the trade, but not on the re-signing.

by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 10:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Looper hogged a spot for a younger player?
Who in the world are you talking about?  If we had an equally competent pitcher in AAA, they would have been brought up at some point during the season.  We don't have good pitchers ready for the big leagues.  That's perhaps our biggest weakness in AAA.  

As to Aaron Miles, he was cheap and reliable.  He batted near .300 all year, was a switch hitter, and was able to fill in for two injured players for most of the season.  Do you really think Brendan Ryan was ready to play at the big leagues for the entire year?  I'm a big fan of Brendan's, but I doubt he was prepared to take on that job at that time.  

Most the people you mentioned were cheap and reliable.  We're really not talking about saving much money.  And as to not trying things differently by allowing youth to play--we had a large chunk of AAA up here this season.  As I recall, a lot of people were bemoaning the fact that our ending roster looked nothing like the roster on the first day.

by nycardfan on Oct 4, 2007 11:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

again ---- look at opportunity cost
looper was brought here to be a setup man, and he failed in that role; minimum-wage players like wainwright, kinney, and ty johnson eventually took his job away from him. those cheap players could have had the job from the beginning, and the cards could have put the $15m they invested in looper toward a real starting pitcher --- or a better middle infielder, or a slugging outfielder. looper was a waste --- waste of money, but more importantly waste of opportunity.

they did a nice salvage job on the guy, wrung some value out of him after he'd failed in his intended role. but if we've now reached the point where a pitcher with a 5.00 era is considered a great success, then it's clearly time to change direction.

by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

to qualify my last sentence
if a pitcher with a 5.00 era --- who is also over 30 years old and is making $5m a year --- is considered a success, then it's clearly time to change direction.

by lboros on Oct 4, 2007 12:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs