walt makes his mark
congratulations to the sox. they were baseball's best team during the regular season, and they confirmed it in the playoffs. what most impresses me is that they didn't crack after falling behind 3 games to 1 vs cleveland --- so often we see front-runners panic when they fall behind in a short series, and the sox kept their poise. i was impressed with the colorado fans, too --- despite their team's substandard play, they were loud and hopeful to the very last out of the series. unfortunately, the series was a dud overall --- the 4th lopsided result in a row. and for the 2d consecutive year, october was nearly devoid of drama; the last couple postseasons have produced only one chew-your-nails-down playoff series, the 2006 nlcs.
with the cards on the verge of naming a new gm (whoever that might be), i thought i'd look back at the old gm's early months to see what kind of moves he made coming out of the gate. not a predictive exercise by any means; just looking for a bit of perspective that can be applied to the incoming exec. assuming antonetti gets the job, he's going to be met by high expectations in some quarters (ie, sabr-philic cardinal fans) and a lot of skepticism in others. every roster move will be watched closely and judged prematurely; he'll be compared unfairly to walt and no doubt criticized if he doesn't have the team back in first place by, say, april of 2008. . . . .
he'll inherit a team whose circumstances in no way resemble those of the team jocketty took the reins of. walt was hired in october 1994, during the non-postseason of a strike-aborted year, shortly after the team changed owners for the first time in 40+ years. the cards hadn't made the postseason in 7 years and never finished closer than 7 games back during that span. here's the starting lineup for the team walt took over:
| pagnozzi c | tewksbury sp1 |
| jefferies 1b | sutcliffe sp2 |
| alicea / pena 2b | watson sp3 |
| ozzie ss | olivares sp4 |
| zeile 3b | cormier / urbani sp5 |
| gilkey lf | arocha cl |
| lankford cf | |
| whiten rf |
those cardinals were in 3d place when the strike ended the season, 8 games under .500 (53-61). they had a solid everyday lineup --- 6th in the nl in scoring with a 4.65 runs-a-game average (the league as a whole averaged 4.65 runs / game) --- led by two all-star starters, jefferies and ozzie. 5 of the 8 starters were above 100 in ops+, and 6 of the 8 were above average for their position; the same group had finished 4th in the league in scoring in 1993. while there was room for improvement (particularly on defense), the everyday lineup was not the problem. the problem was the pitching --- specifically, the rotation. st louis ranked 13th among the 14 nl clubs in 1994, and the starting rotation carried a 5.50 era, worse even than that of the 2007 club (5.04). joe torre lost one of his best pitchers from 1993 (donnie osborne) to injury and suffered a bad year from his nominal ace (tewksbury); he exacerbated the problem by converting perhaps his best starting pitcher (arocha) into a reliever.
tewksbury, sutcliffe, and jefferies were all at the end of their contracts, so walt had a few holes to fill right away. but at the time he took over there was no collective-bargaining agreement in force, which made for sluggish activity on the trade and free-agent markets. even so, the eager young gm didn't take long to start making moves. about a month after his arrival he signed a couple of minor-league free agents, one of whom (mark petkovsek) would spend four fruitful years in st louis; he also snagged a rule V signee, rich delucia, who'd knocked around with seattle and cincinnati; he would pitch very well for st louis in 1995. a couple weeks later jocketty made his first trade, acquiring a 25-year-old 2bman (ramon caraballo) who hadn't established himself in the majors yet; then he turned around and dealt half of his very productive 2b platoon (luis alicea) to boston for another couple of not-quite-there players, pitcher nate minchey and outfielder jeff mcneeley. about 6 weeks in, he'd added four unproven 20somethings with upside to the roster.
at the winter meetings he brought in two proven 30somethings, tom henke and danny jackson. henke, a missouri native, was on his way to retirement but agreed to a 1-year deal so he could pitch close to home and make another couple million before hanging 'em up. jackson was a front-of-rotation guy who'd pitched for 3 pennant winners (and 2 world champions) and was coming off a stellar year in 1994. the significance of these two signings should not be missed: they signaled the cardinals' arrival as serious bidders on the free-agent market. henke and jackson were by far the biggest names the franchise had ever fished out of the free-agent pool; if i'm not mistaken, jackson's contract (3 years, $10m) was the first 8-figure deal the cards ever handed out. so mere weeks into jocketty's tenure, a dramatic change in direction was apparent --- the team was going to spend money aggressively in pursuit of established talent. just to be clear, i'm not suggesting that walt set that agenda --- the owners set the agenda. they identified walt as the right guy to implement it.
after those two big moves, jocketty pretty much sat on his hands until the labor dispute finally got sorted out. he signed a fringe free-agent, danny sheaffer, and a couple of well-past-prime reclamations, darnell coles and tim hulett --- the sort of scrap-heap vets jocketty would always retain a fondness for. now roughly 6 months into his reign, he'd already displayed nearly the full range of tendencies he would exhibit over the next 13 years:
- a keen eye for useful quadruple A players (petkovsek, delucia)
- a fondness for scrap-heap veterans (hulett, coles, sheaffer)
- an ability to land the big fish (henke, jackson)
he still had one hole to fill, as the cards lacked a 1st baseman to replace jefferies; on april 9 he dealt his starting rightfielder (whiten) and a swing arm (cormier) to the red sox for 3d baseman scott cooper and relief prospect cory bailey, with incumbent 3bman zeile moving over to fill the vacancy at 1b. here's how things shaped up on opening day:
| pagnozzi c | hill sp1 |
zeile 1b |
jackson sp2 |
| watson sp3 | |
| ozzie ss | osborne sp4 |
cooper 3b |
|
| gilkey lf | henke cl |
| lankford cf | |
jordan rf |
walt completed his maneuvers in june, when he traded zeile (a pending free agent) for mike morgan and fired joe torre as manager 47 games into the season. quite a breathtaking transformation. in the span of 9 months, jocketty completely overhauled the pitching staff, adding three proven, stabilizing arms (jackson, hill, and henke) and some promising young ones (bailey, petkovsek, minchey). he also created everyday opportunities for young players in right field (jordan), at 2b (pena), and at 1b (john mabry, who took over for zeile).
comically enough, the results of all this activity were disastrous. the two star pitchers, hill and jackson, both posted eras over 5.00; cooper, the new 3d baseman, slugged .313 and had an ops+ of 69. pagnozzi got old, ozzie got hurt, and the two young 2bmen (caraballo and pena) both washed out, leaving jose oquendo (a crusty old veteran of 31) to take most of the abs at that position. the cardinals finished with a .434 winning percentage (62-81), one of the worst performances in memory --- their 3d-worst winning pct in the previous 70 years. it was an inauspicious beginning for what would eventually be a stellar run of success.
walt tore it all up again the next year, adding big names through free agency (benes, gant, gaetti) and trade (eckersley, stottlemyre, clayton) along with a big-name manager/coach tandem. . . . the moves yielded one division title in 1996, but they also made the cardinals old and slow and set them up for the sluggish, non-competitive 1997-99 seasons. by the end of 1999, five years into his tenure, jocketty's teams had a combined winning percentage of .482; in the five years before he took over, the cards played at an aggregate .492 clip.
i point this out not to diminish jocketty's reign, but rather to counsel caution about the new guy: success doesn't happen overnight. it didn't for walt, and it might not for the new fellah either.
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A-Rod is a free agent!
I know we will want to talk about the Gm, but!
Last night via e-mail Scott Boras let the Yankees know A-Rod is out. While, The Yankees were offering an extention. 5y 140m.
Intersting stuff. If the BoSox re-up Lowell and sign A-Rod to play short they will have to move Lugo.
The Yanks can't let that happen. They would end up with Crede. Shit! The Yanks just can't let that happen.
Cashman will have to go back on his word and talk deal with A-Rod.
Overnight
"success doesn't happen overnight"
On a side note, I have always wondered whether some of Walt's moves that first season hurt the Cards competitively in 1996. Would the 96 club have been better with Zeile at 3rd and with Tewksbury in the rotation? I say yes.
GM this week?
I'm with you
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 29, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
On a side note
My thinking would be that without moving Rolen and $8 million of his salary over the next 3 years(yes I know A-Rod could play SS, but I don't think the dollars would work without trading Rolen) the Cards can get the deal done.
That said, if the Cards could find a way to trade Rolen (there are a number of clubs looking for 3bmen [Padres, Twins, and now the Yankees]), I think the Cards could handle offering a 6 year deal for 30 million a season, so long as the deal comes with an opt-out clause after the 2010 season, allowing the Cards to let A-Rod go and then use the dollars for signing Albert.
even with an opt out clause...
They need starting pitching more than they need A-Rod.
That said... it is kinda nice to think about though.
by SmashedAtoms on Oct 29, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
If you're just daydreaming...
What can you get for $10mil/yr these days?
by cardzfanbub on Oct 29, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Well,
If that happens anybody here intersted in Lugo.
Not at all
I don't want it.
a-rod is an a-hole
by willievinceterry on Oct 29, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
you must
Great Post,
by rockin redbird on Oct 29, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions
Random chance
I think Walt had a huge part in turning the franchise financials around when he brought in McGwire.
But, I have always felt the real key to turning our winning fortunes around was random chance. We caught lightning in a bottle drafting Pujols in the later rounds. Without him playing at MVP level for peanuts from 2001-2004, we would not have been able to build that level of team success. I cannot contribute the draft of Pujols as any genius...pretty much random chance.
Also, you could argue the luck of Carpenter. Though I am sure Jocketty saw the potential in Carp, I doubt any thought paying for a couple years of rehab would produce a Cy Young level pitcher.
totally agree
Somewhat agree, but
TSF
by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Without Albert
That's why I said
You can call it random, I choose to give Walt some credit for the trades to build the full team.
TSF
by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Job, larry
This isnt supposed to contradict what you are saying, however even in his worst year, Pujols posted a 151 OPS+. No player on that '94 team came close to that in their career.
The bar for success is probably set slightly higher for the next GM. With Pujols already on the team and a guy many are treating like the Messiah in Colby Rasmus on the way, 5 years of .482 baseball probably won't cut it.
And for further comparision, Bing Devine's teams went:
1958 - 72-82 (.468)
1959 - 71-83 (.461)
1960 - 86-68 (.558)
1961 - 80-74 (.519)
1962 - 84-78 (.519)
1963 - 93-69 (.574)
1964 - 93-69 (.574) World Series
He inherited a 2nd place team that had been destroyed by Frank Lane and turned them into a 6th place team. He did some good things that first year by acquire Curt Flood as an after thought. He then went and got Bill White the next year. Divine had the luxury of an owner that was willing to pay through the nose to acquire a player (making offers for Ernie Banks, etc) but lacked the free agency market to spend that cash.
His real talent was his knowledge of the Cardinals farm system, having worked in it for almost 2 decades. That, and of course, the Cubs failing to give Lou Brock sunglasses.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:28 AM EDT reply actions
I don't get it
Compare our current team with the team Walt took over in 1994. It is not even close, that team was terrible. Right now the Cardinals have a lot of talent and it is just about adding another well above league average pitcher, then maybe getting some guys to produce or brining up these supposed minor league stars. I am not going to sit around for 3 bad years and say it's ok. It is not ok as the NL Central is terrible and the Cards should not have to take some major step backward to get better. The Cardinals have plenty of talent at this point to contend next year. They really need a dominant pitcher. This new GM is going to have a lot of pressure as you have arguably the best player in the game hitting his prime. There is no way the new GM will be dumb enough to waste that. There are enough pieces to be a competative team.
but the cards don't have a lot of talent right now
3B
Do we not think that he can, if relatively healthy, raise his OPS+ 11 points? Even in a dinged up 2006, his OPS+ was 126, well above league average offensively.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
the avg nl 3bman
so
I understand the Cards need more offense from Rolen, but to say he is less than ave at third I disagree with. If he continues to D up like he has he is a HOF'er IMHO.
I also disagree about the talent level.
Ankeil > Juan
Ludwick > Wilson
Schu > Taguchi
Ryan's Defense > Eck
I expect Kennedy and Rolen both to improve, but Edmonds not to. Not to mention Pujols, Duncan and Molina.
The rotation needs work, but
Wainman
?
?
Looper
Pineiro
with Mulder and Carp. Isn't a horrible place to start. So lets get a quiality pitcher or two and win the division.
Rolen's HofF chances
in 2006
I'm not saying he can be a world beater again but I think it's reasonable that with a full range of motion, Rolen can be an above average offensive and defensive MLB 3rd baseman again.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, he could bounce back
what's your opinion regarding the larger issue --- do you see the cards as having a contending core in place, and just needing to add a couple parts? or do you think they need a pretty thorough overhaul?
core
in other words, i think they can compete in this division next year by adding mainly pitching, maybe one bat, and relying on the vets who have not produced lately (jed,scoro,kennedy) to bounce back at least a bit
now if by june that isnt happening, and we are not in a race, bring up young guys (rasmus, hoffpauir, maybe even anderson) to try to get a head start on your new core
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Define 'a few pieces'
The team is severely, severely hamstrung beyond 2010, and is likely a 85 loss team at best if one of the high priced superstars collapses or gets hurt early, but it has the two best hitters in the game, and will have a terrifying playoff rotation if Carp ever comes back.
But yeah, short of adding two world beaters, this team isn't contending.
in theory
What? Hey it could happen ;)
they're = their
I'd be fine with trading a few more years of glory
And my main point here
Adding A-Rod and Santana certainly would work. Maybe Tejada and Burnett would be enough. I doubt that adding two players that are lesser than those latter two guys would.
This is my thinking
I don't think it is going to happen, but who knows.
But if you add Marcus Giles, Preston Wilson, etc to this roster, it ain't helpin.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
AL
every few days or so
TSF
by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
lboros question
though no one will read this late post......
actually neither is possible and therein lies the conundrum
as much as we love Jed, Scotty, Carp and Mulder....the likelihood of even two of those returning to 2004 version is slim
Given the immovable money committed to those 4, we have very linited options for 08
So, by default, we opt for a cleverly disguised - and delayed - but pretty thorough overhaul...accept the ugly facts for what they are, hope for the best, do not sign costly middling vets, build the farm system and by all means make all deals with 2011 in mind...........especially if you are a new GM with a grace period
and btw, I had forgotten what a rotten roster WJ inherited..........send him a bottle of champagne
As for what he left us on the roster.......the Championship Trophy is makes up for that
conundrum
well, in fact some have read it...
i agree with your other points, and in times like this i guess the advise of marques do pombal applies nicely: bury the past, feed the present, rebuild the future...
Talent
CF- Bring up Rasmus let him take his lumps. Drop Jimmy Edmonds. Why even deal with him in his last year.
2B- Drop Adam Kennedy. Why keep a guy two more years if he sucks. All it does is delay prospects.
If people want to make major strides right away it would be best to drop these two guys right now.
I agree that multitasking is a
But can we please put to rest the whole argument about how all we have to do is win the NL Central? That's defeatist and completely lacking in imagination. If I were the Cards' owner I would insist that our goal is to be as good as the best teams in baseball, not just the cream of a crappy division. (In a perverse way I sorta kinda hope that the Cubs, under new ownership, will work toward that goal ... it would put Cardinal ownership under the gun and it would end this argument about big fish in a very small pond.)
by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 29, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember that first season well
One game in particular. Mike Morgan was threw a no-hitter for 8 and 1/3 innings before losing it on a ground ball to Scott Cooper that he back-handed and made a strong throw that the runner beat by a step. No hitter done. I want to say it was against the Cubs. I don't remember for sure, except I remember feeling like it wasn't fair for that hit to end the no-hitter.
Also, in 1996, we were in on a lot of other free agents that snubbed us, namely Mark Grace and Craig Biggio. We ended up with Gant as our hitter instead. Those were exciting times.
by Toddius396 on Oct 29, 2007 11:49 AM EDT reply actions
Can we say that the best thing to come out of
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
Todd Helton's dream

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:58 AM EDT reply actions
Thank you
by mynameistyler on Oct 29, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
gawd that's depressing
antonetti / antonelli
by willievinceterry on Oct 29, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions
In all honesty...
by mynameistyler on Oct 29, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
my error
everytime you guys write something about this
(And then I wake up and realize it ain't gonna happen.)
TSF
by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Altobelli
by flynn on Oct 29, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
How about this for an A-Rod contract
What if Arod's deal was 8 yrs 185 million in cash and 115 million worth of ownership in today's dollars.
Dewitt and his group bought the Cardinals for approx 150 million then sold the parking structures for a large portion of that, I can't remember the exact amt. but I think the net purchase price of the Cards fell below 100 Mil. The Cardinals franchise is now valued at 460 million per forbes. If they continue to gain at 7% per year at the end of 8 yrs would be 740 million. 115 million in ownership would be 25% of todays value but if the franchise were to continue to see an increase in value of 7% per year it would be 15% ownership at the end of the contract. Even removing the 115 million Arod now owns the ownership group would have a 525 million or 525% profit should they sell at the end of 8yrs. Arod very well could lead to the creation of a regional sports network for the cards increasing the value even more.
Like I said just for fun.
by jgist on Oct 29, 2007 12:57 PM EDT reply actions
i think
an active player cant be part of ownership, or so i have read
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
would the commish approve a deal like that?
Bernie on new GM announcement
Nice Perspective
by cariocacardinal on Oct 29, 2007 2:51 PM EDT reply actions
HEY LB
It would be cool to see our openings and about how much cash we have since there are reports payroll is going up to $115 mil.
Thanks!!!!!!
by Born in 82 on Oct 29, 2007 3:42 PM EDT reply actions
quick and dirty
C: Molina, Anderson*, Bennett (option)
1B: Pujols, Duncan, Mather, Hamilton*
2B: Kennedy, Miles, Ryan, Hoffpauir*
3B: Rolen, Spiezio, Barden, Ryan, Craig*
SS: Ryan, Miles, Barden, Martinez*
LF: Duncan, Ludwick, Mather
CF: Edmonds, Ankiel, Schumaker, Rasmus*
RF: Ankiel, Ludwick, Mather
OF etc: Haerther, JRod, Taguchi (option)
SP: Wainwright, Looper, Pineiro, Reyes, Hawksworth, Mulder(DL), Carpenter (DL), Boggs*, Garcia*, Motte*
RP: Isringhausen, Franklin, Springer, Johnson, Flores, Kinney(DL), Perez*, Thompson, Wellemeyer, Jimenez, Cavasos, Dove, Worrell
Not all lists are probably a good order but that is the basic picture
Someone reported
Trade idea
by Toddius396 on Oct 29, 2007 3:58 PM EDT reply actions
BREAKING NEWS
Can't say I am upset at all.
2 of the top 5 tigers prospects
Personally, I'm glad we didn't attempt (or since we have no GM couldn't, haha) to match that. For our current farm system that would've been giving up too much. Speaking of...the braves could do this move because of escobar waiting in the wings. ah the joys of a deep farm system.
Looks like a good move for both teams, since the tigers are in win-now mode.
schumaker
by ZVcorvette on Oct 29, 2007 5:02 PM EDT reply actions
In Jeff Gordan's chat today
That's the first rumble I've heard of this. I'm more skeptical than I was about Looper, even.
He hasn't been a starter since high A in 2003, but he's not shown any appreciable platoon splits in his major league career. Thing I like least about it is how reliant on his slider he is. I'd hate to see him have to over-use it in a start and seriously hurt himself. He had a minor injury last season while pitching to only 164 batters. He's a weapon better suited for the bullpen. I'd rather see Wellemeyer starting.
They've talked about that
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Coaching Staff...
McRae is back?
Anyone else notice that once David Eckstein's brother showed up in St. Louis, he started hitting better? Think maybe he was getting better coaching?
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Boy do I agree....
not to mention
I don't
by Toddius396 on Oct 29, 2007 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Yanks Hire Girardi
Mattingly and Torre to LAD
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 30, 2007 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Bit surprised
Sure didn't take the Dodgers long to react to the Yankees choice.
by Birds on the Bat on Oct 30, 2007 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah i'm really pissed about Hal
who did Ryan say helped him as a hitter most? ECK's bro Rick.
and that's after he'd been with the Big Birds for a while. that should tell you something right there.
i'm with you hardcore. Hal's a terrible hitting coach. why Tony would want him back is beyond me.
stupid, stupid move by the Cards. flat out unexcusable.
I'd like to say "Peace" to Tim Hulett
That is all.
by 26thMan on Oct 29, 2007 8:03 PM EDT reply actions
Please
Well...
Last season, he became manager of the Spokane Indians, the Rangers Low-A affiliate in the Northwest League.
Tim Jr. plays for the Oklahoma Redhawks, the Rangers' AAA club.
That's all I know. You from around here?
by 26thMan on Oct 30, 2007 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Around here
Enough word play, I'm from Louisville KY and was just curious....sounded like you might have a good story and inquiring minds........
I did Google Tim Hulett and from website, looks like a pretty solid family doing things the right way
thnks



















