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Around SBN: Pro Combat Goes B1G: Minnesota Edition

walt makes his mark

congratulations to the sox. they were baseball's best team during the regular season, and they confirmed it in the playoffs. what most impresses me is that they didn't crack after falling behind 3 games to 1 vs cleveland --- so often we see front-runners panic when they fall behind in a short series, and the sox kept their poise. i was impressed with the colorado fans, too --- despite their team's substandard play, they were loud and hopeful to the very last out of the series. unfortunately, the series was a dud overall --- the 4th lopsided result in a row. and for the 2d consecutive year, october was nearly devoid of drama; the last couple postseasons have produced only one chew-your-nails-down playoff series, the 2006 nlcs.

with the cards on the verge of naming a new gm (whoever that might be), i thought i'd look back at the old gm's early months to see what kind of moves he made coming out of the gate. not a predictive exercise by any means; just looking for a bit of perspective that can be applied to the incoming exec. assuming antonetti gets the job, he's going to be met by high expectations in some quarters (ie, sabr-philic cardinal fans) and a lot of skepticism in others. every roster move will be watched closely and judged prematurely; he'll be compared unfairly to walt and no doubt criticized if he doesn't have the team back in first place by, say, april of 2008. . . . .

he'll inherit a team whose circumstances in no way resemble those of the team jocketty took the reins of. walt was hired in october 1994, during the non-postseason of a strike-aborted year, shortly after the team changed owners for the first time in 40+ years. the cards hadn't made the postseason in 7 years and never finished closer than 7 games back during that span. here's the starting lineup for the team walt took over:

pagnozzi c tewksbury sp1
jefferies 1b sutcliffe sp2
alicea / pena 2b watson sp3
ozzie ss olivares sp4
zeile 3b cormier / urbani sp5
gilkey lf arocha cl
lankford cf
whiten rf

those cardinals were in 3d place when the strike ended the season, 8 games under .500 (53-61). they had a solid everyday lineup --- 6th in the nl in scoring with a 4.65 runs-a-game average (the league as a whole averaged 4.65 runs / game) --- led by two all-star starters, jefferies and ozzie. 5 of the 8 starters were above 100 in ops+, and 6 of the 8 were above average for their position; the same group had finished 4th in the league in scoring in 1993. while there was room for improvement (particularly on defense), the everyday lineup was not the problem. the problem was the pitching --- specifically, the rotation. st louis ranked 13th among the 14 nl clubs in 1994, and the starting rotation carried a 5.50 era, worse even than that of the 2007 club (5.04). joe torre lost one of his best pitchers from 1993 (donnie osborne) to injury and suffered a bad year from his nominal ace (tewksbury); he exacerbated the problem by converting perhaps his best starting pitcher (arocha) into a reliever.

tewksbury, sutcliffe, and jefferies were all at the end of their contracts, so walt had a few holes to fill right away. but at the time he took over there was no collective-bargaining agreement in force, which made for sluggish activity on the trade and free-agent markets. even so, the eager young gm didn't take long to start making moves. about a month after his arrival he signed a couple of minor-league free agents, one of whom (mark petkovsek) would spend four fruitful years in st louis; he also snagged a rule V signee, rich delucia, who'd knocked around with seattle and cincinnati; he would pitch very well for st louis in 1995. a couple weeks later jocketty made his first trade, acquiring a 25-year-old 2bman (ramon caraballo) who hadn't established himself in the majors yet; then he turned around and dealt half of his very productive 2b platoon (luis alicea) to boston for another couple of not-quite-there players, pitcher nate minchey and outfielder jeff mcneeley. about 6 weeks in, he'd added four unproven 20somethings with upside to the roster.

at the winter meetings he brought in two proven 30somethings, tom henke and danny jackson. henke, a missouri native, was on his way to retirement but agreed to a 1-year deal so he could pitch close to home and make another couple million before hanging 'em up. jackson was a front-of-rotation guy who'd pitched for 3 pennant winners (and 2 world champions) and was coming off a stellar year in 1994. the significance of these two signings should not be missed: they signaled the cardinals' arrival as serious bidders on the free-agent market. henke and jackson were by far the biggest names the franchise had ever fished out of the free-agent pool; if i'm not mistaken, jackson's contract (3 years, $10m) was the first 8-figure deal the cards ever handed out. so mere weeks into jocketty's tenure, a dramatic change in direction was apparent --- the team was going to spend money aggressively in pursuit of established talent. just to be clear, i'm not suggesting that walt set that agenda --- the owners set the agenda. they identified walt as the right guy to implement it.

after those two big moves, jocketty pretty much sat on his hands until the labor dispute finally got sorted out. he signed a fringe free-agent, danny sheaffer, and a couple of well-past-prime reclamations, darnell coles and tim hulett --- the sort of scrap-heap vets jocketty would always retain a fondness for. now roughly 6 months into his reign, he'd already displayed nearly the full range of tendencies he would exhibit over the next 13 years:

  1. a keen eye for useful quadruple A players (petkovsek, delucia)
  2. a fondness for scrap-heap veterans (hulett, coles, sheaffer)
  3. an ability to land the big fish (henke, jackson)
and then, on april 5, he revealed one more characteristic that would become a hallmark of his reign: an ability to package so-so prospects for star players headed into free agency. the strike had ended three days earlier, on april 2, setting off a flurry of roster activity throughout baseball, as teams scrambled to fill holes and set their payrolls. jocketty still needed help for his rotation, and he found it on the montreal roster in the person of ken hill, who'd finished second in the 1994 cy young voting and led the league in wins with 16. in return, walt sent a young major-league reliever (bryan eversgerd) and two class A players to montreal. in today's terms, it would be the equivalent of trading brad thompson and a couple of insignificant class A guys for brad penny. it was a straight salary dump by the expos, who couldn't afford hill's $4.5m salary for 1995 and certainly wouldn't be able to retain him when he hit the free-agent market after the season. teams don't make those kinds of straight-dump deals anymore, which is one reason walt jocketty is out of a job; but for almost 10 years they were his stock-in-trade. he would add mark mcgwire, fernando vina, jim edmonds, scott rolen, and darryl kile on similar terms --- so-so young players in exchange for a star in the last year of his contract, whom walt would then sign to a long-term deal for beaucoup bucks.

he still had one hole to fill, as the cards lacked a 1st baseman to replace jefferies; on april 9 he dealt his starting rightfielder (whiten) and a swing arm (cormier) to the red sox for 3d baseman scott cooper and relief prospect cory bailey, with incumbent 3bman zeile moving over to fill the vacancy at 1b. here's how things shaped up on opening day:

pagnozzi c tewksbury sp1
hill sp1
jefferies 1b
zeile 1b
sutcliffe sp2
jackson sp2
alicea / pena 2b watson sp3
ozzie ss olivares sp4
osborne sp4
zeile 3b
cooper 3b
cormier / urbani sp5
gilkey lf arocha cl
henke cl
lankford cf
whiten rf
jordan rf

walt completed his maneuvers in june, when he traded zeile (a pending free agent) for mike morgan and fired joe torre as manager 47 games into the season. quite a breathtaking transformation. in the span of 9 months, jocketty completely overhauled the pitching staff, adding three proven, stabilizing arms (jackson, hill, and henke) and some promising young ones (bailey, petkovsek, minchey). he also created everyday opportunities for young players in right field (jordan), at 2b (pena), and at 1b (john mabry, who took over for zeile).

comically enough, the results of all this activity were disastrous. the two star pitchers, hill and jackson, both posted eras over 5.00; cooper, the new 3d baseman, slugged .313 and had an ops+ of 69. pagnozzi got old, ozzie got hurt, and the two young 2bmen (caraballo and pena) both washed out, leaving jose oquendo (a crusty old veteran of 31) to take most of the abs at that position. the cardinals finished with a .434 winning percentage (62-81), one of the worst performances in memory --- their 3d-worst winning pct in the previous 70 years. it was an inauspicious beginning for what would eventually be a stellar run of success.

walt tore it all up again the next year, adding big names through free agency (benes, gant, gaetti) and trade (eckersley, stottlemyre, clayton) along with a big-name manager/coach tandem. . . . the moves yielded one division title in 1996, but they also made the cardinals old and slow and set them up for the sluggish, non-competitive 1997-99 seasons. by the end of 1999, five years into his tenure, jocketty's teams had a combined winning percentage of .482; in the five years before he took over, the cards played at an aggregate .492 clip.

i point this out not to diminish jocketty's reign, but rather to counsel caution about the new guy: success doesn't happen overnight. it didn't for walt, and it might not for the new fellah either.

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A-Rod is a free agent!

I know we will want to talk about the Gm, but!

 Last night via e-mail Scott Boras let the Yankees know A-Rod is out. While, The Yankees were offering an extention. 5y 140m.

 Intersting stuff. If the BoSox re-up Lowell and sign A-Rod to play short they will have to move Lugo.

 The Yanks can't let that happen. They would end up with Crede. Shit! The Yanks just can't let that happen.

 Cashman will have to go back on his word and talk deal with A-Rod.

by nybirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Overnight
I don't think many of your regular readers are looking for overnight...  We are looking for a longer range plan to stay competitive on a budget.  More to the point we are looking for better player development.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 29, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions  

"success doesn't happen overnight"
Particularly if the new guy's primary goal is building the farm system into a permanent talent supplier.  That could be a 2 to 3 year project.

On a side note, I have always wondered whether some of Walt's moves that first season hurt the Cards competitively in 1996. Would the 96 club have been better with Zeile at 3rd and with Tewksbury in the rotation? I say yes.

by JMedwick on Oct 29, 2007 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

GM this week?
What are the chances that DeWitt will announce the GM this week?  I think it is a fair certainty that he will but I still want everyone else's take on it.

by StLHugo on Oct 29, 2007 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm with you
I think it is fairly certain that a new GM will be announced this week.  I'd like for today to be that day, thank you.  

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 29, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Surely
By Wednesday there will be an announcement.

by Cardinal70 on Oct 29, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

On a side note
With A-Rod now on the market, should/ can the Cards make him an offer?

My thinking would be that without moving Rolen and $8 million of his salary over the next 3 years(yes I know A-Rod could play SS, but I don't think the dollars would work without trading Rolen) the Cards can get the deal done.

That said, if the Cards could find a way to trade Rolen (there are a number of clubs looking for 3bmen [Padres, Twins, and now the Yankees]), I think the Cards could handle offering a 6 year deal for 30 million a season, so long as the deal comes with an opt-out clause after the 2010 season, allowing the Cards to let A-Rod go and then use the dollars for signing Albert.

by JMedwick on Oct 29, 2007 10:49 AM EDT reply actions  

even with an opt out clause...
and a trade of Rolen, I think the Cards would be severely strapping themselves financially if they attempted to make this deal, IMHO.

They need starting pitching more than they need A-Rod.  

That said... it is kinda nice to think about though.

by SmashedAtoms on Oct 29, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you're just daydreaming...
then by all means continue.  But, lets stop all the talk of the Cards signing A-Rod for $300 mil.  It's not going to happen, and honestly I don't want it to.  I'd rather spend that $30/yr on 3 very good players.  

What can you get for $10mil/yr these days?

by cardzfanbub on Oct 29, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well,
I guess you get Lugo. If the Bosox sign A-Rod and re-sign Lowell.

 If that happens anybody here intersted in Lugo.

by nybirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not at all
Lugo would be one of my least desired shortstops to have on the team.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Oct 29, 2007 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

a-rod is an a-hole
even if he were a "winner," there's ultimately more to life than winning. the guy is a jerk, and i wouldn't want him on the cardinals, period. last night's announcement was a classic example.

by willievinceterry on Oct 29, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

you must
not like winning.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Post,
LB. Man, I had forgotten the specifics of how rough those early years were for Walt. They have become a sort of "blank spot" to me in the wake of the last decade's incredible run of success. Here's hoping the choice is Antonetti and that Cardinal Nation gives him a couple years to get his ducks in order before expressing too much disdain. I believe our team can remain competitive as he grows into the job (and that's all I really expect), but it will probably be a few years till real dividends start paying off. Damn if I'm not already feeling that "hope springs eternal" optimism I always succumb to as another Champion is crowned and another off-season gets underway. Even when my head knows better, my heart is always willing to see the upside. Some of you doom and gloomers may end up being correct in your predictions of failure for the next few years, but a large part of my love of baseball involves said optimism--it's what gets me through these loooooooong winters. Here's to the future and an announcement regarding Antonetti soon!!

by rockin redbird on Oct 29, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Random chance
I do not want to diminish Walt's contributions either.

I think Walt had a huge part in turning the franchise financials around when he brought in McGwire.  

But, I have always felt the real key to turning our winning fortunes around was random chance.   We caught lightning in a bottle drafting Pujols in the later rounds.   Without him playing at MVP level for peanuts from 2001-2004, we would not have been able to build that level of team success.   I cannot contribute the draft of Pujols as any genius...pretty much random chance.

Also, you could argue the luck of Carpenter.   Though I am sure Jocketty saw the potential in Carp, I doubt any thought paying for a couple years of rehab would produce a Cy Young level pitcher.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 29, 2007 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

totally agree
my pro-walt friends point to pujols as an example that walt developed players and the farm system. thi s is just not the case. striking it rich w/ albert was a once in a generation type of thing. For that matter, he wasn't even gonna join the big league club till bonilla went down. walt was a good gm in other aspects, just not this one. I'm excited for the new guy to really develop the farm system.

by kalmavet on Oct 29, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Somewhat agree, but
you cannot say that Kennedy/Bottenfield to Anaheim (formerly California, currently LA Angels of Anaheim) for one sir Jimmy Edmonds was random chance.  That trade was genius.  Bottenfield was the bright spot of 1999.  But Walt knew it was flash-in-the-pan stuff.  Don't know how he knew, but he knew, and he sold high.  I rejoiced the minute I heard it -- Jimmy was/is a fit for St. Louis.  The McGwire move was nice, and the Pujols signing was big, but bringing in Edmonds, Walker, Rolen, Vina, getting a solid year out of Womack, getting a solid year out of Grudz, adding Will Clark when McGwire was hurt, getting Atlanta to cut loose with the Wagon Maker for J.D. Drew, those are the kinds of trades that are Walt's legacy, and they were hardly random.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Without Albert
However, without the random luck of Albert...we probably would have been a higher tier payroll team winning 85 games or less a year...that's not genius if you ask me.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 29, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why I said
somewhat agree.  But Walt knew he had Albert in the pipeline when he got those other much-more-than-complementary pieces . . . I think the genius is in getting enough excellent guys around Albert that he didn't have to shoulder the full load from the start, like he did in 2007 . . . which may be playing a part in why Walt's gone.

You can call it random, I choose to give Walt some credit for the trades to build the full team.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Job, larry
one quibble, though.  Walt didn't inherit Joe Dimaggio.  The new guy does.  He gets a sure fire HOF slugger coming into the prime of his career.  Ozzie was never that.  He was a great defensive player who got into the HOF on that and one crucial HR.

This isnt supposed to contradict what you are saying, however even in his worst year, Pujols posted a 151 OPS+.  No player on that '94 team came close to that in their career.

The bar for success is probably set slightly higher for the next GM.  With Pujols already on the team and a guy many are treating like the Messiah in Colby Rasmus on the way, 5 years of .482 baseball probably won't cut it.

And for further comparision, Bing Devine's teams went:
1958 - 72-82 (.468)
1959 - 71-83 (.461)
1960 - 86-68 (.558)
1961 - 80-74 (.519)
1962 - 84-78 (.519)
1963 - 93-69 (.574)
1964 - 93-69 (.574) World Series

He inherited a 2nd place team that had been destroyed by Frank Lane and turned them into a 6th place team.  He did some good things that first year by acquire Curt Flood as an after thought.  He then went and got Bill White the next year.  Divine had the luxury of an owner that was willing to pay through the nose to acquire a player (making offers for Ernie Banks, etc) but lacked the free agency market to spend that cash.

His real talent was his knowledge of the Cardinals farm system, having worked in it for almost 2 decades.  That, and of course, the Cubs failing to give Lou Brock sunglasses.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:28 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't get it
Ok, our new GM is going to be expected to do very well.

Compare our current team with the team Walt took over in 1994.  It is not even close, that team was terrible.  Right now the Cardinals have a lot of talent and it is just about adding another well above league average pitcher, then maybe getting some guys to produce or brining up these supposed minor league stars.  I am not going to sit around for 3 bad years and say it's ok.  It is not ok as the NL Central is terrible and the Cards should not have to take some major step backward to get better.  The Cardinals have plenty of talent at this point to contend next year.  They really need a dominant pitcher.  This new GM is going to have a lot of pressure as you have arguably the best player in the game hitting his prime.  There is no way the new GM will be dumb enough to waste that.  There are enough pieces to be a competative team.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

but the cards don't have a lot of talent right now
they have a used-to-be-talented players. but if you judge them on current ability, they have below-average hitters at catcher, 2b, 3b, cf, and rf, and there is no shortstop in place. so they're above average at 2 positions, lf and 1b. the defense is a mess, the rotation's a mess; they are in no shape to win now. it's going to take time to rebuild the talent base, whether we like it or not.

by lboros on Oct 29, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

3B
barely able to move his arm because his shoulder was so tight, Scott Rolen posted and OPS+ of 89.

Do we not think that he can, if relatively healthy, raise his OPS+ 11 points?  Even in a dinged up 2006, his OPS+ was 126, well above league average offensively.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

the avg nl 3bman
had an OPS of .805; scoro's was .729. he needs to bring his OPS up 76 points to be league average. can he do that? sure, it's possible --- but i wouldn't assume it.

by lboros on Oct 29, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

i should clarify
to be league average for the position, rolen needs to raise his OPS 76 points.

by lboros on Oct 29, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

so
are you saying that Brooks Robinson was a less than average third baseman? Even during his peak years of say '62 to '72 Robinson was over 800 ops twice. Heck I think I should say twice his whole career.

 I understand the Cards need more offense from Rolen, but to say he is less than ave at third I disagree with. If he continues to D up like he has he is a HOF'er IMHO.

 I also disagree about the talent level.

Ankeil > Juan
Ludwick > Wilson
Schu > Taguchi
Ryan's Defense > Eck

I expect Kennedy and Rolen both to improve, but Edmonds not to. Not to mention Pujols, Duncan and Molina.

The rotation needs work, but
Wainman
?
?
Looper
Pineiro

with Mulder and Carp. Isn't a horrible place to start. So lets get a quiality pitcher or two and win the division.

by nybirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rolen's HofF chances
have passed him by. Injuries to his shoulder have ruined his chances of making it there. He'll be in the Hall-of-the-Very-Good, but he's no Hall of Famer.

by chuckb on Oct 29, 2007 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

in 2006
it was .887.  Even in the 100 ABs after getting his cortisone shot, it was at a .838.

I'm not saying he can be a world beater again but I think it's reasonable that with a full range of motion, Rolen can be an above average offensive and defensive MLB 3rd baseman again.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, he could bounce back
and i hope that he does. i like the guy, and the cards need him. i'm just not taking it for granted that he can keep that shoulder healthy enough to produce at a consistent level.

what's your opinion regarding the larger issue --- do you see the cards as having a contending core in place, and just needing to add a couple parts? or do you think they need a pretty thorough overhaul?

by lboros on Oct 29, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

core
i dont feel they have the core in place that would allow them to just add a few pieces, except for the fact they play in the nl central

in other words, i think they can compete in this division next year by adding mainly pitching, maybe one bat, and relying on the vets who have not produced lately (jed,scoro,kennedy) to bounce back at least a bit

now if by june that isnt happening, and we are not in a race, bring up young guys (rasmus, hoffpauir, maybe even anderson) to try to get a head start on your new core

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Define 'a few pieces'
Here's a (borderline impossible, and almost certainly ill-advised) scenario--the new GM breaks the bank on A-Rod, and then packages Reyes, Rasmus, Duncan and, a spare AA arm for Johan Santana.  They redirect the salary coming off of the books due to Edmonds and Izzy into an extension for Santana.  That team is in contention no matter what Rolen does, and is a world series favorite if Rolen comes back.  

The team is severely, severely hamstrung beyond 2010, and is likely a 85 loss team at best if one of the high priced superstars collapses or gets hurt early, but it has the two best hitters in the game, and will have a terrifying playoff rotation if Carp ever comes back.  

But yeah, short of adding two world beaters, this team isn't contending.

by Valatan on Oct 29, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

in theory
while the team beats the world in 08-09 they're farm system will be totally fixed by +2010 and they'll be like the sox/yanks producing people like Pedroia, Papelbon, Cano and Chamberlain to mix in with Arod and Pujols :D

What?  Hey it could happen ;)

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

they're = their
n/t
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be fine with trading a few more years of glory
for a dark age beyond 2010 or so.  Put a good team around Albert during his most productive years.  The plan is still probably neither good nor likely.  But I'd definitely be glued to the computer screen if it went down, and I'd be impressed by the new gm's guts.

by Valatan on Oct 29, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

And my main point here
is that this team needs to add an all star in the rotation and in the lineup to contend.  There just weren't the studs to carry the scrubs 'n' studs roster construction last year.  So, if you're trying to rebuild the team, who are your all-stars?

Adding A-Rod and Santana certainly would work.  Maybe Tejada and Burnett would be enough.  I doubt that adding two players that are lesser than those latter two guys would.

by Valatan on Oct 29, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is my thinking
I think the Cardinals can be repaired, but certainly not 'tweaked'.  Adding fringe guys ain't gonna do shit at this point.  If they add an Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, etc and a front line pitcher (Burnett, Santana, etc) then this hapless mess becomes a strong front runner with former greats as your fringe guys and young players who could improve.

I don't think it is going to happen, but who knows.

But if you add Marcus Giles, Preston Wilson, etc to this roster, it ain't helpin.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

AL
The AL has proven it is better than the NL.  I guess that is the problem with the NL Central right now as well.  Lots of us discuss ideas that may make us a better NL Central team but it does not mean much more than you suffer the Cubs fate of getting beat in the first round.  But you have to get there to have a chance I guess.  All in all the Cardinals need a ACE to take anything to the next level.  I think the Cardinals could patch together a pretty good line up in 2008, 2009, and 2010 but the Cardinals absolutely need two more dominant pitchers to be a real threat.  I just don't know how you get two Josh Beckett type pitchers when everyone is looking for the exact same thing.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

every few days or so
I slip into a wonderful daydream thinking about Albert hitting behind A-Rod or A-Rod hitting behind Albert . . . but then I wake up and realize it ain't gonna happen.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

lboros question
"add a couple parts? or do you think they need a pretty thorough overhaul?"

though no one will read this late post......

actually neither is possible and therein lies the conundrum

as much as we love Jed, Scotty, Carp and Mulder....the likelihood of even two of those returning to 2004 version is slim

Given the immovable money committed to those 4, we have very linited options for 08

So, by default, we opt for a cleverly disguised - and delayed - but pretty thorough overhaul...accept the ugly facts for what they are, hope for the best, do not sign costly middling vets, build the farm system and by all means make all deals with 2011 in mind...........especially if you are a new GM with a grace period

and btw, I had forgotten what a rotten roster WJ inherited..........send him a bottle of champagne

As for what he left us on the roster.......the Championship Trophy is makes up for that

by Hinkster on Oct 29, 2007 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

conundrum
"though no one will read this late post......"
well, in fact some have read it...

i agree with your other points, and in times like this i guess the advise of marques do pombal applies nicely: bury the past, feed the present, rebuild the future...

"bury the dead, feed the survivors and rebuild the city" (marques do pombal, 1777)

by Johnny64 on Oct 29, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great quote
thanks........I'll use it

by Hinkster on Oct 30, 2007 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Talent
My point is the Cards have enough talent to hang in the NL Central.  Yes I would say talent wise our MI is awful, but at the same time we can win with the right combo in my opinion.  I just think the team doesn't need to step back to a 66 win team to make strides.  I think there is no reason why STL can't manage to win 80 games and make much needed changes in getting younger.  Now it may come to a Arizon diamond back situation if you all are really serious.  They cut Russ Ortiz despite owing him money.

CF-  Bring up Rasmus let him take his lumps.  Drop Jimmy Edmonds.  Why even deal with him in his last year.

2B- Drop Adam Kennedy.  Why keep a guy two more years if he sucks.  All it does is delay prospects.

If people want to make major strides right away it would be best to drop these two guys right now.  

by ICbirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that multitasking is a
viable option.  And no two great teams ever get there exactly the same way.

But can we please put to rest the whole argument about how all we have to do is win the NL Central?  That's defeatist and completely lacking in imagination.  If I were the Cards' owner I would insist that our goal is to be as good as the best teams in baseball, not just the cream of a crappy division. (In a perverse way I sorta kinda hope that the Cubs, under new ownership, will work toward that goal ... it would put Cardinal ownership under the gun and it would end this argument about big fish in a very small pond.)

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 29, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

here here
that may have been the best post I've read here in awhile

why use the NL Central as our benchmark for anything!

Good for you!

by Hinkster on Oct 29, 2007 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember that first season well
And I remember how high hopes for Scott Cooper were.  He never panned out.  

One game in particular.  Mike Morgan was threw a no-hitter for 8 and 1/3 innings before losing it on a ground ball to Scott Cooper that he back-handed and made a strong throw that the runner beat by a step.  No hitter done.  I want to say it was against the Cubs.  I don't remember for sure, except I remember feeling like it wasn't fair for that hit to end the no-hitter.  

Also, in 1996, we were in on a lot of other free agents that snubbed us, namely Mark Grace and Craig Biggio.  We ended up with Gant as our hitter instead.  Those were exciting times.

by Toddius396 on Oct 29, 2007 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Can we say that the best thing to come out of
last night is the emergence of 'Massholes' into the American vocabulary?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Todd Helton's dream
so close, yet....

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

oh my
oh jebus, that is a sad picture.

by jroman on Oct 29, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

One heck
of a goatee, though.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 29, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you
for that one.  That's one of the best pictures I've ever seen from a World Series.

by mynameistyler on Oct 29, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

gawd that's depressing
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 30, 2007 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

antonetti / antonelli
po-tay-toe / po-tah-toe. is this another one of those running jokes a la calling jim edmonds "edwards"?

by willievinceterry on Oct 29, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

In all honesty...
reading "Antonelli" is starting to bother me.

by mynameistyler on Oct 29, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

my error
i've read the erroneous "antonelli" so many times, now i'm typing it out . . . . corrected above, w/ apologies.

by lboros on Oct 29, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

everytime you guys write something about this
I think, "Really?  The Cardinals want Joe Altobelli?"

(And then I wake up and realize it ain't gonna happen.)

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Oct 29, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Altobelli
has won more world series than Antonetti.

by flynn on Oct 29, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about this for an A-Rod contract
This is just for fun and I'm not 100% sure my math is even correct but:

What if Arod's deal was 8 yrs 185 million in cash and 115 million worth of ownership in today's dollars.  

Dewitt and his group bought the Cardinals for approx 150 million then sold the parking structures for a large portion of that, I can't remember the exact amt. but I think the net purchase price of the Cards fell below 100 Mil.  The Cardinals franchise is now valued at 460 million per forbes.  If they continue to gain at 7% per year at the end of 8 yrs would be 740 million. 115 million in ownership would be 25% of todays value but if the franchise were to continue to see an increase in value of 7% per year it would be 15% ownership at the end of the contract.  Even removing the 115 million Arod now owns the ownership group would have a 525 million or 525% profit should they sell at the end of 8yrs.  Arod very well could lead to the creation of a regional sports network for the cards increasing the value even more.  

Like I said just for fun.

by jgist on Oct 29, 2007 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

i think
i think that when this was brought up in regards to the cubs that it was said that a deal like this is not allowed in baseball

an active player cant be part of ownership, or so i have read

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 29, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

would the commish approve a deal like that?
If I were Selig, I would do everything possible to keep a player from being able to attend owner's meeting, for one thing.  Not to mention the conflict of interest, and the disaster that the Michael Jordan Wizards thing was.

by Valatan on Oct 29, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bernie on new GM announcement
In this thread, Bernie indicates tomorrow or Wednesday for the GM announcement.  He also confirms Antonetti (CA), unless there are unexpected developments.

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5056485

by punditmoi on Oct 29, 2007 1:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice Perspective
Thanks for the perspective.  In one way the new GM is hadicapped more than Walt was.  This team is old and breaaking down and there isn't as much room to add salary.   The only saving grace is the money coming off the books next year.  Next year may be a one time shot for the new GM to make a real impact through FA signings.

by cariocacardinal on Oct 29, 2007 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

HEY LB
Since the offseason is now upon us, can we get an updated roster matrix?

It would be cool to see our openings and about how much cash we have since there are reports payroll is going up to $115 mil.

Thanks!!!!!!

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Oct 29, 2007 3:42 PM EDT reply actions  

+ 1
Also, have we looked at our pre-season projections vs. actuals?  Thanks for all you do Larry!!

by cardzfanbub on Oct 29, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

quick and dirty
No money figures on this one but here is what I have so far for a current depth chart (* indicates not on 40 man roster) of players under contract, control or arbitration eligible:

C: Molina, Anderson*, Bennett (option)
1B: Pujols, Duncan, Mather, Hamilton*
2B: Kennedy, Miles, Ryan, Hoffpauir*
3B: Rolen, Spiezio, Barden, Ryan, Craig*
SS: Ryan, Miles, Barden, Martinez*
LF: Duncan, Ludwick, Mather
CF: Edmonds, Ankiel, Schumaker, Rasmus*
RF: Ankiel, Ludwick, Mather
OF etc: Haerther, JRod, Taguchi (option)

SP: Wainwright, Looper, Pineiro, Reyes, Hawksworth, Mulder(DL), Carpenter (DL), Boggs*, Garcia*, Motte*
RP: Isringhausen, Franklin, Springer, Johnson, Flores, Kinney(DL), Perez*, Thompson, Wellemeyer, Jimenez, Cavasos, Dove, Worrell

Not all lists are probably a good order but that is the basic picture

by StLHugo on Oct 29, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone reported
That they heard in a radio interview with LaRussa that we were looking for a backup catcher.  Though no official announcement has been made I think Bennett is gone.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 29, 2007 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trade idea
How about Duncan for Matt Garza and Boof Bonser - is that crazily lopsided in our favor?  We could throw in a mid-level prospect...or someone like Joe Mather.  

by Toddius396 on Oct 29, 2007 3:58 PM EDT reply actions  

seriously?
no...not lopsided at all.

by silent_bob on Oct 29, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lopsided
2 young pitchers are worth 4 Chris Duncans.

by rrvwmr on Oct 29, 2007 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

BREAKING NEWS
Edgar Renteria to the Tigers.  They gave the braves two guys I have never heard of.

Can't say I am upset at all.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 29, 2007 4:33 PM EDT reply actions  

2 of the top 5 tigers prospects
a speedy, lead-off type CF and a ML ready middle of the rotation type.

Personally, I'm glad we didn't attempt (or since we have no GM couldn't, haha) to match that. For our current farm system that would've been giving up too much. Speaking of...the braves could do this move because of escobar waiting in the wings. ah the joys of a deep farm system.

Looks like a good move for both teams, since the tigers are in win-now mode.

by kalmavet on Oct 29, 2007 4:43 PM EDT reply actions  

schumaker
if we trade duncan for that ace we need- why not start schumaker in left and have him bat leadoff? more speed in our lineup which we haven't had in years... is this option never brought up because schumaker's not "young" anymore and he's reached his potential. What did he bat last year? .333 or something? not that he could match that but to come close would be fantastic. And then there's his superior D.

by ZVcorvette on Oct 29, 2007 5:02 PM EDT reply actions  

In Jeff Gordan's chat today
He claims that Tyler Johnson is under consideration for a spot in the rotation for next year. (No internal anchors, but here's the link.)

That's the first rumble I've heard of this. I'm more skeptical than I was about Looper, even.

He hasn't been a starter since high A in 2003, but he's not shown any appreciable platoon splits in his major league career. Thing I like least about it is how reliant on his slider he is. I'd hate to see him have to over-use it in a start and seriously hurt himself. He had a minor injury last season while pitching to only 164 batters. He's a weapon better suited for the bullpen. I'd rather see Wellemeyer starting.

by liam on Oct 29, 2007 6:41 PM EDT reply actions  

They've talked about that
a few times.  There was an article with Dave Duncan discussing it.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shows how little I know
Been away from the game for too long.

by liam on Oct 29, 2007 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Coaching Staff...
to return intact...would have liked to have seen a new hitting coach but?...most likely part of Tony's deal was he got to keep all his coaches.

by Timbo02 on Oct 29, 2007 6:59 PM EDT reply actions  

McRae is back?
Why, so he can help the guys go into prolonged slumps and attempt to ruin Chris Duncan's swing again?

Anyone else notice that once David Eckstein's brother showed up in St. Louis, he started hitting better?  Think maybe he was getting better coaching?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boy do I agree....
with you Hardcore...I thought for SURE they would at least look into replacing McRae...I'd love to see Mitchell Page back in the fold!

by Timbo02 on Oct 29, 2007 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah
I'm fine with our coaching staff beyond McRae, but he needs to be replaced like yesterday.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 29, 2007 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

not to mention
the cards came out of their first quarter hitting slump when Larry Walker came to coach a bit.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Oct 29, 2007 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't
think a hitting coach is that big of a deal.  You can try to tweak a guys approach, but you can't hit the ball for him.

by Toddius396 on Oct 29, 2007 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?
Ask George Brett if working with Charlie Lau was a big deal for his career...

by Timbo02 on Oct 30, 2007 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yanks Hire Girardi
Looks like Joe's in and Mattingly's not.  I wonder where Mattingly's going to go?  Would he consider being a hitting coach in StL. for a few years until Tony hangs 'em up?  What kind of manager would he be?  Any history between him and Tony?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071030/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bba_yankees_manager;_ylt=AhTMhCFxgj65gUki3fGUJ16s 0NUE

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Oct 29, 2007 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mattingly and Torre to LAD
will hit the newswires in the morning.  Grady Little to be bought out.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 30, 2007 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bit surprised
I thought Mattingly would get the nod since he's been in the dugout, but maybe that actually counted against him if they want to clean house.

Sure didn't take the Dodgers long to react to the Yankees choice.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Oct 30, 2007 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah i'm really pissed about Hal
he's done nothing to help the Cards hitters.

who did Ryan say helped him as a hitter most?  ECK's bro Rick.
and that's after he'd been with the Big Birds for a while. that should tell you something right there.

i'm with you hardcore. Hal's a terrible hitting coach. why Tony would want him back is beyond me.

stupid, stupid move by the Cards. flat out unexcusable.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 30, 2007 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to say "Peace" to Tim Hulett
Representing Springfield, Ill.

That is all.

by 26thMan on Oct 29, 2007 8:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Please
update us on Tim Hulett and family...good people from what I remember

by Hinkster on Oct 29, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
After his playing days (he got all of 11 ABs with the Cards in 1995), he and his family moved to Louisiana, where he became head coach at a private high school.

Last season, he became manager of the Spokane Indians, the Rangers Low-A affiliate in the Northwest League.

Tim Jr. plays for the Oklahoma Redhawks, the Rangers' AAA club.

That's all I know. You from around here?

by 26thMan on Oct 30, 2007 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Around here
Yes, I'm from around here.....if around here means VEB.  But I'm not from La, OK, TX or Spokane.

Enough word play, I'm from Louisville KY and was just curious....sounded like you might have a good story and inquiring minds........

I did Google Tim Hulett and from website, looks like a pretty solid family doing things the right way

thnks  

by Hinkster on Oct 30, 2007 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

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