The Burnett Dilemma
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4-0, 4.57 |
8-7, 4.12 |
Well, it looks like we're just waiting for the dogpile now. It was fun while it lasted.
I didn't see much of the game - went to a pretty good school play tonight. I saw Holliday's blast make it close but the Rockies' comeback started in the 6th. They got 2 runs and had 2 on w/ 1 out, facing Mike Timlin. Ryan Spilborghs pinch hit for Cory Sullivan and hit a blast to straight away CF that Ellsbury caught up against the fence. The next batter was Jeff Baker who scorched a ball that should've been a 2 run double to left-center but Lugo made a tremendous leaping catch to end the inning. Holliday's blast got the lead to one but the Sox stretched it out and cruised in the 9th, thus setting up the inevitable dogpile.
As I said in the game thread, "sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug." Make no mistake, the Red Sox are, by far, the more talented team here. But luck often plays a critical role. With a little luck, the Rockies would've gotten a couple more runs there, or maybe several, and it's a whole different ballgame. A 2-1 deficit w/ 2 more at home is so much different from being down 3-0. And Aaron Cook goes tonight - he last pitched on August 10. Hopefully, we'll get that Antonetti announcement we're looking forward to very soon but I hate the end of the baseball season. If so, he has a lot to consider. What day do pitchers and catchers report?
3 years ago, the Cards were finalists in the A.J. Burnett derby, only to lose him to the Blue Jays b/c the Jays offered him a 5th year, and an opt-out clause after the 3rd. The Cards' offer only went to 4 years and, to my knowledge, did not offer Burnett the ability to opt-out after year 3.
Let me start out by saying that I was opposed to signing Burnett at the time. Most here know that LB has stated that the Cards should have signed Burnett . I didn't then, and don't now, think it's a good idea to sign (even admittedly very good) starting pitchers to 5 year contracts - particularly those with a history of injuries. However, it looks as though Burnett will be shopped this offseason and the Cards, with their rotation problems and history of interest in Burnett, could be a likely landing spot. Of course, that history was w/ Jocketty at the helm but there's no reason to think that Antonetti or (gulp!) Mozeliak wouldn't be interested in adding Burnett to the rotation.
The difference now, of course, is that he effectively now has a 3 year contract. Or does he?...more on that later. Nevertheless, my interest in Burnett is considerably higher now than 2 years ago as it's no longer a 5 year contract. He's had 2 relatively successful years in Toronto. This time, the Cards would have to trade for Burnett, thus costing more than money, however. The rumors that he would be shopped this offseason began when his GM suggested publicly that, maybe, Burnett wasn't trying to return from his injury as expeditiously as the team would like.
Burnett is owed $12 million per year for each of the next 3 years and, as mentioned earlier, has the ability to opt-out of the contract at the end of this season. In evaluating Burnett, many will point to his 2 years in Toronto as being sub-par - having thrown only a combined 300.1 innings in the 2 years. This, the critics will point out, is testament to the fragility that many were concerned about 2 years ago. "$12 million a year is too much for 150 IP," they'll say and a fair argument can be made for such sentiment. They'll also point to the fact that he's entering his age-31 season - he's not getting any younger.
He is, however, probably the best starting pitcher available this offseason except for Johan Santana. If Schilling is the best free agent SP, Burnett was better last year, despite just 165 IP, and is several years younger. Garland may be traded; Dontrelle Willis may be made available but they're simply not as good as Burnett - and the Cards don't have near enough to get Santana. So Burnett is the best starting pitcher that the Cards have a realistic shot at this offseason. How good is he?
In his 2 years in Toronto, he's thrown 135.2 IP and 165.2 IP, respectively - not great numbers by any means. Still, in 2007, despite only making 25 starts, he was 39th in VORP and 47th in SNLVAR - both much better than anyone on the Cards' roster not named Wainwright. He was 5th in MLB in K/9. He also has had a ground ball % greater than 50% each of the last 4 seasons. According to MORP, in '07 his value was more than $15 million. According to the Hardball Times win shares calculator, his value was right at his salary - about $12 million.
Using azruavatar's method that LB used to evaluate the starting pitching free agents, Burnett's expected PRAR for '08 is 56 (better than Schilling's) and his expected win shares are 11.3 (about the same as Schilling). This puts his PRAR value at $12.3 million and his WS value at $11.9 million. So, despite the fact that he's coming off a season that is considered less than his best, one in which he was hurt and gave credence to all those concerns about his health, Burnett was STILL worth the salary the Jays paid him. He's averaged 150 IP the last 2 seasons; if he can increase it to 180, his value would go up considerably. He has 2 seasons of over 200 IP - this would add a ton to his value. If he only throws 150 innings, he'll probably still be worth the $12 million in his salary.
Of course, it's not that simple. The Cards would have to trade for Burnett, rather than simply signing him as a free agent. The Jays, even if anxious to unload Burnett, aren't just going to give him away. The Cards won't be the only suitors. You'd have to think that Duncan would have to be included in any deal. The Cards won't trade Rasmus and Reyes isn't anywhere near enough for Burnett so, if the Cards are to receive Burnett, Duncan would have to be the principal involved.
Last week I made the comment that
The problem is the opt-out. My original take on the opt-out was that it helped Burnett, to the team's detriment. Boy, I'm glad we didn't agree to that! But maybe not. The opt-out effectively turned Burnett's 5 year contract into a 3 year contract - just the kind of contract I liked from the beginning. This is only true, of course, if Burnett pitches well. If he doesn't or gets hurt, the team is left on the hook for the entire 5. Nevertheless, it's beginning to seem, to me at least, that the opt-out wasn't all that bad. Burnett's injury likelihood would increase as he gets older so he would be more likely to pitch well and opt-out, thus turning the contract into a 3 year contract. He would leave the team as the likelihood of his being injured went up. But here we are - with 3 years left and only 1 until Burnett can opt out.
The question is - should Burnett's contract be treated as a 3 year contract or a 1 year contract? If a 3 year contract, a Duncan (assuming the Jays would be interested) for Burnett trade seems much more palatable. If we see it as a 1 year contract - it looks like the Duncan for Garland trade I called "the height of irresponsibility."
We could, of course, make the trade and then renegotiate the contract - guaranteeing the final 2 years, thus making it a guaranteed 3 year contract. But we couldn't do this without adding some value to the contract, as the player's association (and Burnett, of course) never would agree to Burnett giving up his right to be a free agent at the end of the year w/o receiving anything in return. Additionally, if he does become a free agent at the end of the year, Burnett would likely receive at least a 4 year contract. So here we are again needing to guarantee 5 years ("maybe we could offer the opt-out after 3?," he says half-jokingly). Maybe the Cards could get the guaranteed 3 or 4 year contract by upping the value to $14-15 million per year. But will Burnett be worth that kind of cash in his age 34 and 35 seasons? He wasn't worth that in his age 29 and age 30 seasons. Would the Jays even allow the Cards a window to negotiate an extension before completing the trade? I doubt it - they won't need to.
The Cards have an opportunity this offseason to add a very good starting pitcher who is reasonably priced and not in his late 30's or early 40's. He wouldn't be some retread, or a Dave Duncan project and would make the Cardinals contenders (at least for the NL Central) next year, and probably in every year Burnett is under contract. We could sign a free agent OF to replace Duncan and bolster the rotation w/o appreciably hurting the offense.
But the details are tricky. Is he worth 4 years of a solid hitter like Chris Duncan? How should his contract be evaluated when determining the players to be traded? Should the Cards attempt to renegotiate the contract and, if so, under what parameters? Maybe Antonetti can begin to work on this dilemma tomorrow.
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I'm sure there's someone who will
All that being said, I'm not sure Duncan makes sense for a team with Adam Lind waiting in the wings and Lyle Overbay entrenched at first. Duncan is a pretty awful fielder which hurts his value as an overall player. The Cardinals are much better at producing position players than they are pitchers so acquiring (and keeping) someone like Burnett could be a big boost for the team even if it requires giving up Duncan.
I've read
No. Friggin. Way.
I understand the need to replace Reed Johnson in right but with Adam Lind waiting in the wings and free agent outfielders a lot more available than #1 starters this off-season, it would be moronic for the Jays to make that kind of deal.
The writer of this article seems to have a lot more knowledgeable about American League baseball than those that have left comments. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that the Jays would tamper with one of the two cornerstones of what's arguably the best rotation in baseball for a right fielder. Especially not now with the Yankees seemingly faltering and the Jays in a make-or-break mode. The Jays have a couple of needs - trading for a young outfielder is pretty low down on the list.
by jaysfan on Oct 29, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes!
BTW
by rockin redbird on Oct 28, 2007 4:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Link
An interesting article, for sure.
Nice column, HC. Trading Duncan away would hurt pretty bad—and just when he convinced me he's for real. (Not to beat a dead horse, but if only Reyes had emerged as a top-of-the-rotation starter like we'd hoped...)
Hear hear
This may have been mentioned in another thread, but I hadn't noticed it so perhaps not. Bernie says Joe Mather has been added to the 40-man roster. He would have been a minor league free agent, or eligible for rule-5, or something; can't quite recall what his status was but I know we stood a chance to loose him if we didn't add him.
I think there's still a couple of unfilled slots on the 40-man. I could also see a few of the relievers (Cavazos, Dove, Hawksworth, Falkenborg, Jiminez) get the boot if we need to make space for anyone.
AJ scares the crap out of me
as a creature of the night, i too love the late night posts H-Town.
He scares me too. He's been on the DL
If they could get him they probably should, but I'd still worry about him getting hurt.
This is a concern
With so many injuries, you have to
I'm not opposed to getting him, not at all. It's giving him a long term guaranteed contract that concerns me.
It's a concern
the year after Burnett had 200 IP
also you've to give up 'some' talent and give him a long term contract for him to give up the opt out clausule.
altogether i'd prefer to look for someone else.
Burnett
Late night posts...thumbs up...although for me they are daytime posts. (In Hong Kong a couple of weeks)
Anybody else find it funny that the east coast media is still fixated on the Yankees every day even with the World Series going on? You can't make announcements during the World Series, so the Yanks are making a series of non-announcements like: "We will name a new manager on monday" "We are talking to Arod about an extension that might be for 5 more years at $150MM." The media has put more emphasis on the Yankees since they were dumped out of the playoffs than when they were in.
My first priority for the offseason: (In case Antonetti is reading this stuff.)Get the best defensive shortstop you can find. With a bunch of groundball pitchers you have to field the ball. This team's defense last year was pathetic. Health will improve the corners and the outfield, but a good defensive shortstop will make the entire pitching staff better.
No Thanks!
Furthermore, why would you want to make a trade like that in what figures to be a rebuilding year? Let's just say the Cardinals can renegociate the contract to remove the opt-out clause. The next year, maybe two, figure to be rebuilding years. So you are banking on the guy being productive at age 32 and more importantly 33? That isn't a bet I'd like to make.
If there is anything that the last several years should have taught us, it is trades like Duncan-for-Burnett are not a way to build a championship, at least not on a budget. We should look for young, cheap arms, not old expensive ones.
BTW, another solid job HC
link
does that mean he is really owed 39.6 mil over the next 3 years instead of 36? or was there a signing bonus involved or something?
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 28, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i might be alone here
hes injury prone and will choose to leave if he has a great year
hes already chosen the money over the cardinals once
we need to be looking at lowry or snell
if jason bay is really available, id go duncan/reyes/prospect for bay and one of their young arms
You aren't alone
Why?
When does each go FA
Burnett and the opt out clause
generally...
negotiating
Boras
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html
Wow....did you see that his contract
I guess that transfers with him?
Hey, I've hit the big time
-- not to beat my own chest or anything ;)
Color me conflicted...
My "hunch" is that Bill DeWitt is going to offer the GM job to Antonelli; and hire "Mo" if Antonelli turns down the gig. No matter what the new GM does to address the Cards' need for starting pitching (and a righthanded bat), it will narrow the Cards' options "down the road"...
I'm of the opinion that Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds will have "bounce-back" years... although I don't expect either of them to return to their 2004 levels of production; I do think they'll give the Cardinals better production than their replacements did last year.
Whoever the Cards' GM is, he'll benefit from the fact that he won't have the media pressure to make a "splashy" move. After all, even with all the bad mojo the Birds had to deal with this past year, they were still in the race until their September slide! I may be "drinking the Cardinal Kool-Aid", but I don't think they're that far away from returning to "contender" status.
As for Burnett, I think his injury history and the Cardinals' recent "track record" of dealing with injuries makes acquiring him more risky. A.J. seems to be one of those guys who's "Hell when he's well... he's just hurt a lot!"
AJ fire sale
So we lost the bidding war because we only offered 4 years, whereas the Jays offered 5, but now we realize it was really only 3 with a 2yr coverage for long term disability (better than Aflac).
So the Jays paid two years of cash, got two reasonably productive seasons, and can now anticipate getting a few good players in trade. How can anybody now think the Jays made such a bad deal as they were accused of at the time of signing. I don't think so.
But, to whoever gives the Jays some players for the right to put out the cash for year three, plus the 2 yr LTD plan, and the opportunity to renegotiate with Boras; they will be stuck with one of the memorably bad deals of the century.
We blew the opportunity to get AJ when we needed him. It would be disastrous to "take advantage" of the opportunity to get him now. The real deal was lost, just move on.
by Birds on the Bat on Oct 28, 2007 11:53 AM EDT reply actions
especially since
WJ got owned on that deal, for sure.
While
Now, 2 years later, the Cards are burdened with major money sunk into 2 top of the rotation starters who are have/ are spending significant time on the DL (Mulder and Carpenter). Is it really wise to throw another 14 or 15 million a year after Burnett, another starter with major injury concerns? I say no.
There it is again!
No way
I also would rather rent an older pitcher for a year and not give up the offense.
If you need to trade duncan, call the giants who are in desperate need for OF help. They also have young pitching. Trade young hitting for young pitching (Cain) is a much more fair deal.
I don't think Cain is a pitcher
duncan for cain is pretty lopsided
granted, duncan's limited playing time skews that somewhat, but since he still hasn't proven that he can hit left-handers you'd have to consider him a 3/4-time player. i'd love for the cards to get cain, but i would be surprised if chris duncan alone were enough to land him.
then again, sabean gave up all those young arms for aj pierzynski . . . .
My guess would be that Duncan's defense
by JI on Oct 28, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I suspect we need an add in
Would I throw in Anderson? thats tough. Cain would be under our control for a few years while Anderson is stil an unknown. Its a tough call.
Anderson should be used in a deal
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I think
I'm not saying that trade proposal wouldn't help the Cardinals, for snell is a phenomenal talent. But it just seems that Yadi is severely under appreciated on this site because one of his most valuable assets isn't able to be processed by a series of statistical equations and put into a 4 letter anagram.
but what is that value?
i'm not asking to be flip, i'm asking because i really would like to know. his ability to cut off the running game has a measureable value --- we should be able to estimate it. it it's worth 10 runs a year, a better hitting catcher would make up the difference. if it's worth 30 runs a year, that's something else again.
You want
lotta very good hitting catchers out there
if the stick doesn't improve, he's gonna be overpaid too once the salary gets to $3m a year or so. he's still young; still might develop as a hitter.
Yeah, but Anderson's MiLB stats
I obviously don't have the splits to determine it but I'd wager that the 4 or 5 XBH that Anderson has picked up per season in the minors is a result of his better speed.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Hang on there!
@ Peoria, Midwest League -- .316/.384/.700
@ Tennessee, Southern League -- .321/.332/.653
@ Memphis, PCL -- .384/.372/.756
Anderson's 2 years above rookie ball
@ Quad Cities, MW league -- .377/.417/.794
@ Springfield, Texas League -- .350/.388/.738
Anderson has yet to play in the hitter friendly PCL.
Total steals/CS above rookie ball --
Molina 2 SB/ 8 CS
Anderson 2 SB/ 7 CS
Anderson's not beating out a lot of bunts or infield singles. He's just a good hitter -- considerably better than Molina ever was.
Comparision
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Molina 393 39 110 20 0 7 50 21 36 .280 .316 .384 .700
Anders 381 50 115 29 3 3 51 42 66 .302 .377 .417 .794
+ - BA -12 +11 +5 +9 +3 -4 +1 +21 +30
Age 20 Season
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Molina 364 32 100 13 1 2 51 25 45 .275 .321 .332 .653
Anders 389 51 116 15 1 6 53 32 77 .298 .350 .388 .738
+ - BA +25 +19 +16 +2 +0 +4 +2 +8 +32
Anderson was better, I'm not arguing that. But enough to negate the defensive value to equated earlier? Again, how much of Anderson's better hitting is his being more apt at turning a ball to the wall a double than Molina? How much is based on his position in the lineup (don't know where either batted).
Molina was no slouch in the minor leagues. Last season was one of the first he'd ever begun to hit like he had in the minors. And he's only 24 years old.
If he is going to progress as a hitter, will it be THAT much more than Molina?
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
SBR
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5222
Great question
Last year the average NL catcher had .74 SB attempts per game against. Molina's was .48. So having Molina behind the plate saved the Cards an average of .26 SBA/game. Over the last 3 seasons, Molina has averaged 111 games/year so, by multiplying .26 * 111, we can estimate that Molina saves the Cards about 31 SB attempts per season.
The average SB success rate in the NL last season was approx. 20% so, if Anderson had average success throwing out baserunners, there would be 24.7 more successful stolen bases against him than vs. Molina.
According to "Baseball Between the Numbers", in 2004 each successful stolen base was worth .1593 runs. There's no reason to believe that that number is appreciably different in '07 or would be in '08. Multiplying that times the 24.7 successful SB's means that having Anderson behind the plate would yield an additional 3.93 runs per season -- let's call it 4. So the value that Yadi saves the Cards in terms of stolen bases NOT ATTEMPTED is 4 runs, or less than half a win.
This does assume that Anderson has average success in throwing out runners and that teams would attempt to steal against the Cards an average number of times. It's possible that he's not quite an average thrower but LaRussa's teams do pay a lot of attention to the running game and have quite a bit of success in holding runners on base. I think it's reasonable to assume that Anderson would be an average receiver in this regard. But, even if we assume he's far below average, the difference isn't going to be any more than 1 win, in terms of stolen base attempts saved. It's possible Anderson's offense is already there.
FYI
It's safe to say that Yadi's worth to the Cards, IN TERMS OF STOLEN BASE ATTEMPTS PREVENTED, is about 1/2 a win.
very well done
It sure seemed like Stinnett and Benett gave up a ton of SB's last year. I'm shocked that the number is so low (not questioning it, just surprised).
I appreciate
by The Butcher on Oct 28, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The assumption here is that
that was the question that was asked
are we assuming
I wasn't at all
Duncan isn't an outfielder to begin with
Team Value
I mean, he will probably start next season healthy when we are down Carpenter and Mulder. Should we extend him beyond next year, we will have 2 legitamate number ones (AJ and Carp) and a strong number 2/3 in Wainer. Both Carp and AJ will be likely to miss a legitimate stretch sometime over the stretch of a few years. But, odds are it won't come at the same time. A rotation without one of the three would likely still remain competitive and in years all are healthy reaching the playoffs we will be formidable regardless of the shape of the offense.
i agree w/ you ray
my only hesitation is whether the rest of the team is in any kind of shape to capitalize on a stellar rotation. we could end up w/ a situation like the astros when they had clemens / oswalt / pettitte in hand, but were so flimsy everywhere else that they struggled to make the playoffs ever year (or missed altogether, as in 2006).
any time you have a chnace to get a diff'nce maker in the rotation, it's hard to say no. if the opp'ty presents itself w/ aj, it'll be a tough call.
Carp in 2008?
Your projected top-of-rotation assumes a healthy Carpenter in basically a "return to form" circa 2005-2006, does it not? With a healthy, effective Carpenter, that 1-2-3 punch you mention makes a reasonable argument for a Burnett deal as described. However, I'm concerned (just a gut feel based on Carp's injury history, no real data or insider information) that we might be left with only the shell of 2005-2006 era Carpenter -- thus negating the advantage of loading up for October 2008 by adding Burnett.
Right now, what's the approximate median of projections (medical, tea leaf or otherwise) for Carpenter's performance level by the latter portion of the 2008 season? Everything seems to hinge upon the risk level associated with what Carpenter can/cannot do after his return.
not scientific....
i don't know what to expect for 2008
yup...
however, in '08... who knows? he might not pitch at all in '08. if he does, he will be nearly two full years removed from competitive pitching (excepting opening day this year). he shouldn't be expected to jump right in and perform at his usual level. so if we're hoping for a Carp/Burnett/Wainwright '08 playoff push, maybe we ought to rethink it. and since any acquisition for Burnett will likely be a single year, it shouldn't necessarily be with the playoffs in mind, since even making the playoffs is a pretty extreme long-shot.
Smoltz came back great as a reliever
that's not what i meant...
expectations for Carp in '08 should be modest and qualified. beyond that, we can be more optimistic. that's why i said that something like Carp's '04 level would be a reasonable hope for next year.
Injury history
I understand the concern, Z,
Just don't think of it or bank on what Burnett can't do -- be healthy for a full season -- and think of what he can do: be a front of the rotation starter for 2/3's the year.
In the day and age of Lilly/Suppan/Meche at 10 million a year, Burnett for 11 (even if it's only for four months a year) seems like a decent-to-good deal. (Better than Joels deal, at least.)
Burnett vs. nothing
Personally, I don't think it is. Having Burnett pitch here is very intriguing, I won't argue with that, but the talent it would cost the team to bring him here would just be too much, in my ever so humble opinion.
by the red baron on Oct 28, 2007 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not that I'm not high
But, I'm almost always wrong, so whatever.
a few things...
- extending Burnett will likely cost at least $15mn/year for four years. he'd likely get more than that on the open market (assuming he finishes next season healthy), and he's already proven that he won't give StL a discount. the only way to get him at $12mn is to accept that it's only for one year.
- his VORP and Win Shares show how good of a pitcher he can be (and in the AL East, no less). but if we're only going to expect 25 starts from him, then you have to factor in the expected performance of his back-up for 8 starts or so. so, what you're adding is 3/4 Burnett + 1/4 Thompson/whoever. so that slot in the rotation isn't going to look as positive if you map it out that way, with 1/4 of the starts going to a below-average (possibly replacement-level) pitcher.
- you say: "We could sign a free agent OF to replace Duncan and bolster the rotation w/o appreciably hurting the offense." true, but the added salary from replacing Duncan should be included as an implicit cost of trading for Burnett. there aren't that many OFs on the FA market who can be expected to replace Duncan's expected level of performance, and any of them will likely cost $7+mn/year for several years. so, in net, assuming we extend Burnett @ $15+mn/year, we'd be paying something like $22-25mn/year to improve one roster spot (plus the loss of whatever other prospect might go to Tor in such a trade). we could probably sign Glavine AND Schilling for that money, keep Duncan, and not have big-money commitments (and the accompanying injury-risks) past this season.
i would rather...
and if he is hurt or doesnt produce, you wouldnt be on the hook for him
the best deal that yr was not burnett
What guy?
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
probably true
I think though from that yr thats the only move i would have made...im glad burnett didnt sign..for reasons others already posted...injuries.yrs etc..
I didn't want him
I'm now of the firm belief that we can't possibly have enough talent on this team, even if it costs $130 M a year.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
ya they were very similar IMO
hardcore have you found any chase versions of eck?
It isn't even out
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
justsaw the entire 08 list
Left Field Defense
just had one of the things we missed from the 04
Top Three Reasons to Hate the Red Sox
- Beating the Cardinals in 2004
- Beating the Rockies in 2007
- No beating the Mets in 1986
Just because?
Oh, and ARod will opt out...per SI.com.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
sure
- their fans
- their fans are spoiled brats (BC undefeated, this, patriots beating the shit out of everyone, celtics preseason favorites and on the cover of SI and ESPN Mags preview issues)
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
on boston..
but hell, any fan base would be thrilled to have 2 championships in one year and they'll prob get that. ugh what a terrible world series, barring a col comeback here
I may end up hanging myself from
Ironically
It was a couple guys sitting around a bar that resembled cheers, talking in NE accents. They go "hey how bout the sox???" then it was silent...then they said "how bout the bruins??" silent again, then "how bout the pat's?" silent still. Then it faded out and said "isn't it great being from St. Louis?"
Then the Pats and Sox systematically dismantled the heavily favored Rams and Cards a few years later.
haha
I'm not really a footbal fan
I plan on reading this all week as I'm sure they will tear into the colts and the patriots.
Also, this might be one of the most awful boring World Series that I've ever seen.
Tulowitzki and Hawpe
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 11:06 PM EDT reply actions
a-rod
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 11:12 PM EDT reply actions
because of Pujols
Not that Pujols wouldn't want A-Rod...but how can you pay both without insulting one by not paying more than you do for the other player?
They are professionals
Um, I think A-Rod is clearly the better player
i disagree
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say clearly better
A-Rod had a good year this year but is close to Pujols the last couple of years.
this is totally a beer or tacos question.
I also don't think there is any other player close to these two.
Tony would disagree with you Zubin
people forget Albert came up as a 3rd baseman, so i think he can hold his own vs ARod at 3rd.
now SS is another story altogether. ARod wins in a land slide.
now do the Cards have a chance at getting him? sure, why not? Dewitt & CO got the cash. at that's what ARod wants. he doesn't want a ring. i honestly think he could care less what uniform he wears. the only thing he wants is the dough.
and Fuentes isn't exactly
by Petkovsek on Oct 28, 2007 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
When
When did this happen?
I believe
Maybe I'm over reacting. I've been known
Okajima taken deep back-to-back nights
by Petkovsek on Oct 28, 2007 11:37 PM EDT reply actions
Play for 09, not 08
Carp, Wainright, Reyes, Mulder.
A lot of questionmarks. Don't add another one w/ Burnett. How much for Johan in 09?
Reyes?
by Big Red on Oct 28, 2007 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Reyes = Cheap + Young + Pitcher
Um management has said reyes isn't in the plans
Even if we were forced to pitch Miles, Spiezio
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Duncan's on record
All of 'em except Boots
I also think TLR yelled at Sparky (the dog) in front of the cats for drinking out of the toilet after being told numerous he was not to do so.
Sparky was visibly shaken and humiliated.
by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Sparky is a rookie
he has not earned the right to drink from the toilet yet.
Tony will let him know when he's earned that right.
until then Sparky would be wise to drink from the dog bowl in the kitchen like the rest of the rookies.
The post-game press confrence
c'mon, in fairness to tony,
Sparky's an idiot
by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I just pray that no matter how big an idiot
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
i called Sparky's agent
i guess some where along the way i had a run in with Sparky's cousin that didn't turn out to well.
(if you don't understand. see my signature below)
oh what i would give
world champions
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:04 AM EDT reply actions
That was lame;
(If we were the worst champs ever, why can't they be the most boring?)
ugh
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
world champions
sweeps suck.
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:08 AM EDT reply actions
well this sucks
at least is wasn't the flubs.
i guess i should congratulate them, but i just cant.
i want to say go screw yourself boston. but i wont. but i really want to.
i will!
the red sox, BC, patriots, celtics, and bruins can go (um yeah, not going to say that).
by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I can say "go screw yourself Boston"
by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
indeed
7 series, 5 sweeps.
and espn was covering the a-rod situation as the final out was being recorded -- shameful.
bring on the antonetti announcement.
re: duncan, i don't want to see him go, but the team will have to shed at least one (possibly two or even three) OF out of edmonds, schumaker, taguchi, ludwick, ankiel, and duncan. i wouldn't mind seeing the latter three all stay and be the opening day starters, but that obviously won't happen.
i still wonder what the chris duncan/dave duncan situation will have to do with his whereabouts next year.
by willievinceterry on Oct 29, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
man if i'm mike lowell, i'm pissed
I'll say it
clint hurdle is all class
they may be the best team in baseball, but they are far from the best people in baseball.
FWIW
"Matt (UW): What do you think the Cards can expect out of Carpenter from now on? First the shoulder and now Tommy John. At age 32, do you think he's going to come back strong or should Cards fans be worried?
Will Carroll: Couple good years, then a rapid decline. Horrible extension. Dealing with Carpenter is going to be the biggest challenge of Chris Antonetti's third year in St Louis."
i dont know if i should be happy
i wonder who told Will Antonetti accepted the Cards offer?
I'd be more concerned with what
by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
So they should expect a couple good years
I can live with that.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks to VEB and Larry.
I don't know about the rest of you, but where I live I don't have any close friends that are real (die-hard?) Cardinal or baseball fans. This blog not only makes my fan-ship enjoyable, it makes it possible. Even though the season was a dissapointment in the on and off-field results, I really enjoyed it.
Thanks to the game threads, the satire about Tony's Cats, Dave Duncan's Toliet and everything and everybody else. You make baseball fun.
Same here
The satire and in-depth perspective on the team is better than anything I could find elsewhere.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
tell me about it
And the curtain comes down on 2007
So the Cardinals have tried
Now they've got two 2003 Mariners pitchers. After we acquire Armando Benetiz, what 2004 team will we try to snatch the discards from?
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:15 AM EDT reply actions
I'm all for it
....oh wait.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Think there is any way we can get Cliff Lee?
08:$3.75M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$8M club option ($1M buyout)
He sucked VERY HARD in 2007, however for $3.75 next year, $5.75 M in 2009 and $1 M in 2010, is he worth the flyer? Is his career shot?
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:31 AM EDT reply actions
can he be any worse than Maroth or Mulder?
sure, why not? Dave's done more with less in the past.
if Antonetti really is taking over i can see him trying to work something out.
Kip Wells and Sydney Ponson
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions

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