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pitching for pay

the rockies are lucky they didn't get blown out again; if a couple of just-foul balls had gone fair instead, the score woulda been 6-1, 7-1, something like that. the long layoff seems to have hurt colorado (although their lack of offense in game 1 is probably josh beckett's fault); their pitchers aren't sharp, and they've made mental errors in the field and on the bases. i haven't counted them out just yet, but in the next two games they will start josh fogg --- a finesse pitcher who the patient red sox hitters ought to slaughter --- and aaron cook, who hasn't pitched in over 2 months. don't like their chances.

today's post is heavily numerical. using a method similar to the one azruavatar employed in estimating eckstein's dollar value, i'm trying to establish rough estimates for what the major f.a. pitchers are worth. i'm particularly curious about lohse and silva, the guys most likely to draw interest by our team. before i lay out the method in detail, let me issue the major caveat: these are very crude estimates. i haven't adjusted for age, playing time, or current health status, all of which can affect what a pitcher gets paid; moreover, i'm using only a couple of broad metrics to assess performance. so i don't consider the dollar figures i'm deriving here to be absolutes; not by any stretch. they're only meant to be rough gauges, give-or-takes. if the exercise says pitcher X is worth $8m a year, it doesn't mean that's his precise market worth; it's just a reasonable starting point. a team that offers said pitcher $9.5m a year isn't necessarily overpaying; a closer look at the guy's overall profile might yield evidence justifying the extra investment.

on with the survey.

i looked at 25 pitchers who signed contracts last year, either new free-agent deals or extensions. the two metrics i used to estimate each player's expected level of performance were pitching runs above replacement (PRAR), a Baseball Prospectus stat devised by chris davenport; and win shares, a bill james stat featured at the Hardball Times. in the latter case, i looked only at pitching win shares (excluding a pitcher's hitting and fielding contributions). while neither of these stats expresses a player's value with unassailable precision, they're both trustworthy and have a long track record. moreover, they're both bottom-line metrics: one expresses performance in terms of runs, the other in terms of wins. the goal here is to calculate how much teams are paying, on average, per run and per win. i only looked at last year because a different collective bargaining agreement was in force prior to that, as well as a different national tv contract; changes to both of those deals significantly altered the economics of the game last off-season, so salaries paid out in 2005-06 and before aren't particularly useful for comparison.

again using azruavatar's method, i took a three-year weighted sample of each metric (.50 for the most recent year, .35 for the year prior, .15 for the year prior to that) to derive an expected performance for each pitcher in year 1 of the contract. just to pull out an example: heading into last off-season, barry zito was coming off a 73-PRAR season, preceded by 67- and 52-PRAR years. so the formula is (.50 x 73) + (67*.35) + (52*15) = 67.75. that's our working estimate of zito's expected performance in year 1 of his contract --- 68 runs above replacement level. the average annual salary of his deal was $18m, so we divide $18m by 68 to yield a bottom line, the dollars per run. in zito's case, the quotient was $265,683.

before we go on, another couple of caveats. one obvious weakness in this method of valuation is that zito's contract runs for 7 years, but we're only working with his expected performance in year 1. if i knew of some quick/dirty method for roughing out long-term projections, i would estimate zito's PRAR over all 7 years of his deal --- but a) i know of no such method, and b) no 7-year projection is gonna be accurate, no matter what method you use. even single-year projections of pitching only correlate to reality at about a 50 percent level; by the time you start projection 2 and 3 years out, the numbers aren't particularly meaningful. a second weakness is that zito's salary isn't structured in equal increments; he'll get paid less than $18m for the first couple years of the deal, more than that in the later years. if i wanted greater precision, i'd adjust these valuations to reflect back-loading of contracts --- and in that case i'd also need to factor in the time-value of money and a bunch of other factors that i don't really understand.

i acknowledge those limitations of the survey, and i ain't doing anything about 'em.

rather than post the full table of all 25 pitchers, i'm just gonna provide a link to the spreadsheet for those who want to look it over. for everyone else, here are the overall averages paid to the 25 pitchers last year:

per expected run above replacement: $220,024
per expected win share: $1,055,627
most of the "major" free agents were very close to these averages: lilly, padilla, schmidt, zito, marquis, pettitte, and suppan all were paid between $204K and $265K per expected run and $1.03m to $1.13m per expected win share. the vazquez and buehrle extensions also fell inside that range on the PRAR side (their contracts were bargains on the win-share scale, paying less than $1m per expected win share). the clustering gives me confidence that these averages actually have some meaning; there was little variation in the rates paid to pitchers who were healthy and still in (or close to) their prime. players who were older, coming off injuries, or coming off a particularly bad season tended to get paid less than average; a few guys were overpaid based on perceived potential (one of them, gil meche, proved worthy of the extra investment for the 1st year of his deal).

if we apply last year's average rates to the free-agent class of 2007-08, we arrive at the following estimated values:

exp 08
PRAR
exp 08
WS
exp sal
PRAR
exp sal
WA
schilling 54 11.5 $12.2m $12.7m
glavine 52 12.6 $11.8m $13.8m
livan 48 10.7 $10.8m $11.8m
silva 40 9.2 $9.0m $10.0m
lohse 38 7.7 $8.6m $8.5m
jennings 34 6.2 $7.6m $6.8m
lieber 31 6.4 $7.1m $7.0m
ro lopez 26 5.2 $5.8m $5.7m
pineiro 20 3.8 $4.6m $4.2m
weaver 22 3.5 $5.1m $3.9m

you'll note the cardinals are paying pineiro about 50 percent more than his expected salary; he's getting $321K per expected RAR and $1.7m per expected win share, well above last year's average rates. he's in the same category that adam eaton, gil meche, randy wolf, and kip wells were in last off-season --- all were priced above the 06-07 market, with the buyer betting that the pitcher could significantly exceed his recent level of performance.

none of the other values particularly surprises; they all pass the smell test, imho. i left guys like bartolo colon and freddy garcia off the list, owing to their injury status; i did include a couple of surgically enhanced arms (jennings and lopez, who are both coming off flexor-tendon fixes) but found the numbers not to be credible. is somebody really going to pay $7m a year to find out if jason jennings can still throw a baseball? lord help us if they do. . . . . of course, if their injuries drive the bidding down far enough, jennings and lopez might represent buying opportunities; should one of them bounce back, he could be a great bargain (much as chris carpenter was a few years ago). lopez in particular strikes me as likely to go cheap; both he and jennings were traded last spring, but lopez was only perceived to be worth a fringe minor-leaguer, while jennings cost an everyday centerfielder and 2 good pitching prospects. it might be worth plunking down a million or two for the privilege of finding out how lopez looks 6 months after that surgery.

another guy who might go below market is kyle lohse, who doesn't have a power arm and sports a string of ugly won-loss records. while most teams don't actually give a lot of weight anymore to w-l, they can still wield it as an argument at the bargaining table. lohse at $8.5m; pass. lohse at $7m? tempting . . . . . . he's prob'y gonna go for at least $8.5m, though.

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Great post...
as always.  This reaffirms my opinion that we should be in on the Glavine/Schilling sweepstakes.  Shilling is expected to get $12-$13 mil, and Glavine $10-$12 (from what I'm hearing).  Your table says they're both in that range.  If we could sign either to a one year or one plus option with a limited no trade I'd be thrilled!

by cardzfanbub on Oct 26, 2007 10:17 AM EDT   0 recs

Yes
Schilling is the best target.  Give him a big one year deal, maybe even an option year.  He would instantly solidify this rotation.  Schill and Wainwright would be a good 1-2 with Carp and Mulder hopefully coming back later.  

Glavine wouldn't be bad, but the upside is much higher with Schilling in my opinion.  He had a pretty good year in 07 when he wasn't hurt.  I suppose he is a bit more of an injury risk then Glavine, but I think he would be a great pick up.  And if Carp isn't able to get back this year then essentially you are redirecting the insurance money to Schilling's contract.

by OCCardsFan on Oct 26, 2007 12:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Long Lay-Off??
I really don't think its the long lay-off that hurt the Rockies...  It that they have to play the best club in a better league.  As much as it pains me to say it, the Red Sox are the best top-to-bottom club in the majors.  The few weaknesses they have can probably only be exploited if a game goes to extra innings or the series goes deep.  I don't think either will happen.  Still I hope the Rockies win.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 26, 2007 10:18 AM EDT   0 recs

long layoff
i think that may have something to do with it, but, more importantly, they just have a shutdown bullpen, between okajima and papelbon
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 26, 2007 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree that the long layoff isn't the problem..
It is nerves and aggressiveness that is the problem. I first noticed it during the late innings of the San Diego- Colorado playoff game. When the Rockies main hitters came up all were taking huge cuts trying to win the game with a home run. Watching the first two games of the World Series I see the same somewhat undisciplined cuts, pushing to try and "be the hero."

by JMedwick on Oct 26, 2007 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
It's one thing to see someone like Tulowitzki, young and playing in the series in his first season swinging a bit wildly.  

But it was absolutely shocking for me to see a seasoned veteran like Todd Helton taking wild, full-on hacks in the bottom of the ninth.  I guess it made some sense--one run would've tied, boston had their closer on the mound, and he was a power threat, but the strikeout just kinda seemed inevitable.

by Valatan on Oct 26, 2007 12:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It doesn't help
that Papelbon seems to get called strikes at the shoulders.

by sdrone on Oct 26, 2007 2:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i don't completely disagree
you're absolutely correct re: the unfortunate quality of the red sox.  and, the rockies have certainly been inconsistent however, (and i recognize there's no way to prove it) but the pitchers are struggling to find the strike zone in a manner they weren't during the lds or lcs which suggests to me the lay-off adversely affects them.

by sdesserman on Oct 26, 2007 1:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Good info.
Really quantifies the thin FA pitching market.  I thought Livan might be interesting but certainly not at 11 mil/yr +.  He made around 7 last year and is coming off a pretty forgetable year.  If it possible to get him for around that rate it would be worth it.  He'll give you innings and is only 32, although he seems older.  Too bad someone will pay 10 mil/yr + for him.

Oh yeah...The rockies just look overmatched.  Too bad.

by Beware the Molinas on Oct 26, 2007 10:39 AM EDT   0 recs

Livan
You know Livan is a great guy to have if your team will be in the play-off's, but I would not want to pay for what he is going to give you during the regular season.  He is one of those guys who knows how to pitch.  He has lost velocity but it does not seem to affect him that much.

Oh yeah Colorado looks way overmatched.  My god the Red Sox are just throwing fastballs past a lot of the Rockies hitters.  It would be nice if STL had a starting pitcher and a bullpen guy who can both bring 98 like Beckett and Pap.

The FA pitching market is garbage.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 26, 2007 11:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

good pitching vs bad hitting
I am just wondering if one can separate good pitching vs bad hitting for a particular game.  This thought has crossed my mind many times when looking at box scores, and I really have no idea how to tell - by the numbers only - whether a pitcher is really 'on' or whether the hitters are really 'off'.  When you are watching the game it is a little easier - Spillborgs has clearly been 'off' for the Rockies this series (I can't remember one good swing in two games - some DH...), but Beckett was clearly on in game one and shilling clearly throws with confidence in October. Thoughts?

by cdb on Oct 26, 2007 11:37 AM EDT   0 recs

The Rockies had their chances last night
they didn't come through with runners on base.  In particular, in the sixth, they got two on against Schilling with one out, Francona went to Okajima, who then got a sac grounder and a popout to end the inning.  The first also should have garnered them more runs than it did.  That seems to be more of an issue with offensive execution than it does with Schilling slaughtering the Rockies offense.

by Valatan on Oct 26, 2007 11:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the question is...
So Shilling wasn't that great - and the rockies clearly blew some opportunities, despite Shilling being human and making mistakes.  When you look at the stats the next day - is there one ore more statistics that you could look to distinguish good pitching from bad offense?  

by cdb on Oct 26, 2007 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

mgl
I would seem to me that these "gross" averages compare well to the recommendations by mgl of $200k per marginal run (Discussed here and here), but he recommended $2MM per marginal win whereas this method returns over $3MM (I assumed 1 marginal win was equal to 3 WS).  I guess that the prices have rose that much since his recommendations.  

by Just Rope Ball on Oct 26, 2007 11:55 AM EDT   0 recs

The field at old Busch and Busch III
I'm reading the Chicago Tribune article on re-doing the field at Wrigley (dropping the field by 14", etc.).  He actually has a patented drainage system.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-071025cubs,0,1633400.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout

Bossard (White Sox groundskeeper) has done 10 stadiums, including Fenway and now Wrigley.  I didn't know he'd done 10.  Anyone know if he had a hand in converting Busch II to grass, or doing the field at Busch III?

by sdrone on Oct 26, 2007 11:58 AM EDT   0 recs

I don't have a link
But I'm pretty sure he did the grass at Busch III.  Rooney knows him well from his years with the White Sox and has talked about this before.

by OCCardsFan on Oct 26, 2007 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

PRAR question
What exactly does this mean?  Runs allowed?  Runs prevented?  I read the description but it still doesn't really clear it up.

Zito's number is going up the last 3 years.  Can I assume that the number going up means the pitcher is getting worse?

by sdrone on Oct 26, 2007 12:14 PM EDT   0 recs

It's the number of runs
that the pitcher prevented above what a replacement level pitcher would have prevented. More is better. If Zito's PRAR was 73, that means that a replacement level pitcher would have given up 73 additional runs than Zito in his # of innings.

by houstoncardinal on Oct 26, 2007 5:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

asian starting pitching
this was in an article in the STL post disptch about mulder's second rehab stint. DG claims "The Cardinals are considering bids on pitchers from the Asian pro leagues." Here is the creativity I certainly hope the organization doesn't forget about as the offseason continues. I was in korea last summer and watched a few games. while bobby valentine claims the japanese league has talent comparable to the mlb- i think the korean league isn't far behind. are there more economically friendly solutions in asia- perhaps not just japan? korea did quite well in the WBC if i remember correctly- they did beat the US which i guess doesnt mean very much.

by ZVcorvette on Oct 26, 2007 12:22 PM EDT   0 recs

Asia
I think Asia is resource that will only get better with time.  You are never going to get a great impact player without having to give up a ton.  It seems like those guys are generally under contract of a Japanese team.

I think the true battle ground is Latin America.  You are alreay behind if you are a MLB team that doesn't have an academy or great scouts and development people in Latin America.  I hope the Cards have that area covered like sink on you know what.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 26, 2007 12:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh yeah
It does not take a genius to figure out why you want to be in Latin America.

It is your cheapest resource and it is a good resource.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 26, 2007 1:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cheap talent
I know it sounds crazy, but I have always wondered why no club has ever tried to convert a cricket bowler to baseball.  When scouts are scouring China and Australia for arms, I would think it would have to be worth a few $100K to try to convert a top notch cricket player.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 27, 2007 12:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Meche and/or Bannister
Obv Meche worked out GREAT for the Royals at $97,222 per run and $466,667 per WS.  I was searching around at random and came across an BP Chat (with cameo by azruavatar) where they linked an article were Nate Silver said the Royals should trade Bannister and Meche....I wouldn't mind having either of them.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Oct 26, 2007 12:29 PM EDT   0 recs

How about two...
eight digit, one-year deals for Schilling and Glavine?

Sends a message that the team isn't giving up on '08, but allows a fresh start to be made in '09 with what will almost certainly be a better team.

Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Oct 26, 2007 12:49 PM EDT   0 recs

So you'd do all pitching
and not add any offense.

by sdrone on Oct 26, 2007 2:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess not...
The team scored 725 runs last year and they figure to get better at 2nd (.667 ops), 3rd (.713), and right (.748). Center (.747) and catcher (.658) are more likely to get better than worse, but they'll probably stay about the same. First (.950), left (.820), and short (.706) seem like strong candidates to stay the same.

No where does a precipitous drop off seem imminent (except for the pitchers), so I think the team has a good shot at 775 runs next year. That would have put them at a respectable 8th in the National League.

On the other hand, the starting pitching was terrible and doesn't figure to get better by doing nothing. Wainwright, Looper, Pineiro, Mulder, and ? don't promise much improvement or decline from their respective 2007 performances.

Obviously, getting both Glavine and Schilling for one-year deals isn't likely to happen. Maybe Reyes/Duncan can be moved for someone (though that would put the .820 left-field OPS in jeopardy). The objective is to push Pineiro and Looper back to the #4 and #5 positions in the rotation, have any contribution from Carp/Mulder be gravy, AND not screw up the '09 budget. Tall order...

Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Oct 26, 2007 2:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hope
we have a GM in place soon.  The winter meetings are just over a month away.   I would like a GM who has had time to evaluate his organization to attend.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 26, 2007 2:54 PM EDT   0 recs

I bet we have one....
but MLB has some pretty strict rules about making announcements during the WS.
"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Oct 26, 2007 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yea its said the yanks know who
they will choose but couldnt make the announcment..i heard it may come today during the travel day..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 26, 2007 3:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

hummmm
very interesting!!!!

Do you think you know who it it?  You gonna share that inside info you got?

MLB is too paranoid at times.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 26, 2007 3:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

espn radio
like 2-3 days ago said it would be down to the three guys they interviewed..Joe G,Tony P,and Mattingly..hm a rhyme? they mentioned the announcement may come today and due to the series mlb was making them hold out...havent heard any mor news on it in 2 days
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 26, 2007 3:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That Jennings trade
Has got to be one of the worst ones made in recent years.  Colorado really fleeced Houston on that.  I guess we won't know the extent of the damage until Hirsh and Buchholz are contributing to the Rockies, but the mere fact that they project to contribute tells you all you need to know.  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 26, 2007 3:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Going from projecting to contribute...
to contributing is an important step...

Buchholz is 26 now and can't crack the post-season roster. His future is in long relief.

Hirsh shows alarming similarities to Reyes: dominated AAA, but after 28 big league starts he's got an ERA of +5 and a whip of 1.41. He's a strong flyball pitcher yet he can't even strike out 6 per 9 innings and he walks over 4 per nine. That's alarming. Reyes' problems look manageable by comparison.

Taveras is a Juan Pierre clone with a better arm. With a neutral-luck BABIP (maybe .340 for him) he'll post a sub-.700 OPS. That's not good enough for a starting outfielder regardless of speed and defense.

So the Astros gave up a forth outfielder/pinch runner, a long man, and a busted prospect who might hang on as a 5th starter. Granted these players had slightly more value a year ago (especially Hirsh) and the trade was never advisable, but I think the Stros have dodged a bullet in terms of making an historic blunder.

Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Oct 26, 2007 3:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Descending Colon

USS Mariner
has an interesting piece on Bart Colon and his cost/potential benefits.

Interestingly,
THT
ranks Colon as the #1 worst player in terms of win shares value at a salary of $9,949,934.  

Draw your own conclusions.

by silent_bob on Oct 26, 2007 5:27 PM EDT   0 recs

As a stealth 5th starter candidate...
I wonder if Joe Kennedy has anything left?  He's mentioned as an "available lefty reliever" on MLB Trade Rumors today.

He finished the season very badly last year, but he started 16 games for the A's and was somewhat successful (4.03 ERA, 5.05 FIP).  He was moved to the bullpen after a couple of bad starts and then got hammered.  Anyone have more info about what happened to him?  Was he hurt?  Even in this terrible season he was much better against lefties than flores, so at the very least he'd be a viable option for a LOOGY.

I wouldn't want to give him a guaranteed contract, but if he's healthy a spring training invite might be an idea.  

by SleepyCA on Oct 26, 2007 6:36 PM EDT   0 recs

We've got the market cornered
On 5th starters.  As a LOOGY candidate he could be worth an invite, not like there's anything to loose.  If there's one facet of our bullpen we could improve that's it.  Flores and Johnson had some less than inspiring stretches this year.  Johnson's troubles can probably be attributed to his injury troubles this year, but it might be a good idea to try to replace Flores this coming season.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 27, 2007 12:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Who is going to replace Valatan?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 26, 2007 8:06 PM EDT   0 recs

Fantastic analysis
PRAR and WS are both counting stats.  For Lieber this causes a problem in particular because he missed most of last year due to a random injury (tore a tendon in his foot covering home plate).  There's an element of not base-lining these stats against a set number of innings that I like -- it provides us with an estimate of what they will actually do rather than what they would do if they all threw the same number of innings since we know that they probably all won't know the same number of innings.

Couple points:

  1. I wonder if it isn't undervaluing Lieber though.  If we set his 07 PRAR to his 06 level, he makes around 9M (same for WS).  
  2. Lohse's agent is Scott Boras so I'd be surprised if he comes on the cheap.  
  3. Also, plugging Burnett into the spreadsheet garners him an average salary of 12M a year -- the cardinals really missed out on that (non)signing but he has an opt-out clause for next year when he'll be entering his age 32 season.  I'd expect him to opt out barring a serious injury this season.

by azruavatar on Oct 26, 2007 10:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Antonetti anyone?
Looking better and better on the Antonetti candidacy:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/42360A6620D4C262862572140020DFC0 ?OpenDocument

I really hope they offered him a job.

by indakind on Oct 27, 2007 1:16 AM EDT   0 recs

Looking good
"He has signed off on both La Russa as manager and Jeff Luhnow as vice-president in charge of amateur scouting and player development."

That's encouraging!  I think a lot of us here felt the biggest snag in netting Antonetti would be Luhnow.  

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 27, 2007 4:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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