What About the Shortstop?

by Titus Pullo on Oct 22, 2007 11:54 AM EDT Comment 19 comments

Way back in July, our esteemed web-host Larry argued that shortstop was the position where the Cardinals could make the most improvement to the team. This was his conclusion back then:

so --- to wrap this up --- if the cardinals can swing one trade at the deadline to start restructuring this team, the ideal acquisition would be a 20something shortstop who can bat leadoff, draw a walk, and steal a base. somebody like rafael furcal, in whom the cards showed no interest when he was a free agent 2 off-seasons ago . . . . .

So now I'm wondering--does this conclusion still hold? If not, why not? I bring this up because there has been, to my mind, little discussion of how the shortstop position plays into the Cardinals' trade/free agent strategies this off season. Is it because no good options (other than A-Rod) are out there? Or because our other needs hold greater priority? Or maybe there's been a resurgence in confidence in either Ryan or Eckstein occurred between July and today? Personally, I think shortstop requires more urgent attention than our left-leaning outfield.

Poll

What's the Card's Top Priority This Offseason?

Starter with front of rotation stuff

148 votes

Righthanded corner outfielder

12 votes

Centerfielder (righty or otherwise)

1 votes

Shortstop

20 votes

181 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 19 comments

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Comments

I don't think anyone

is particularly worried about our left leaning OF, more that we may have to use one of them to acquire pitching that is better than Kip Wells and Anthony Reyes.

As far as shortstop, we've probably got a 'C' player there as of right now. There isn't really an 'A' player availible and is it worth giving up alot of talent to acquire a 'B' talent.

That's a lot of letters.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 22, 2007 11:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I would argue yes.

Using my basic math skills (I'm a history major), here's how I see the Cardinals in terms of grades as of last year (which I bet no one in the world will agree with).

C:85%(B)
1B:100%(A+)
2B:75%(C)
SS:75%(C)
3B:85%(B)
OF:85%(B)*3=255
85+100+75+75+255
---------------------- = 84.6%
8
Assume, we trade for Renteria, which is my dream, and probably a best case scenario. I rank him at a solid 90% (B+/A-). In doing so, the grade rises to 86%. That's on the upper half of a B, which is pretty decent, and being in the NL Central, it sounds like a good bargain. I agree the Cards could find another outfielder, and that would only raise the grade higher.

Time to bring up the prospects.

by CraveCase on Oct 22, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm all for Renteria

If all it takes is Anthony Reyes to get him. That seems to be what most people around here think, and I'd gladly endorse such a trade. If I'm the Braves I don't make that trade. I know they've expressed interest in Reyes in the past, but I don't see how he fits into their organization now. Assuming they sign Glavine, they've got a rotation of Glavine, Hudson, Smoltz, Chuck James, and any one of Buddy Carlyle, Kyle Davies, or Jo-Jo Reyes. All three of those options posted relatively lousy stats, but were still better than our Reyes. Just doesn't make sense to me.

That being said, I'd love to see Edgar back in a Cardinals uni, just not if it means giving up Duncan or one of our few good prospects. If Reyes and a Joe Mather-type can get the job done then great.

But I have a feeling we're going to re-sign Eckstein. It's an idea I'm growing accustomed to, as long as it's just a one-year deal I don't see how it hurts the team. Another "best of a bad set of options" kind of deal.

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 22, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you've got about 3/5's of that right...

glavine is no sure thing (retirement, signs somewhere else)...kyle davies is in kc (dotel package)...buddy carlyle was in the majors last year for the first time at 29 (and didn't do well)and jo-jo is well...the lesser known of the two sucky reyes'....in short although his stats may not have reflected it anthony's stuff, salary, and age make him more attractive in my opinion than any of those guys

grow back the beard adam...it couldn't hurt

by intimidator45 on Oct 25, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with your analysis

that the lowest grades on the team go to the middle-infield, although I might assign an even lower grade at 2B. I find the prospect of "Eckstein-Kennedy" or "Ryan-Miles" or any combination thereof profoundly depressing. Furthermore, it's gonna take a pretty big upgrade in the OF to pick up the slack that these slots will create in the line-up.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Oct 22, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have been saying all season

that the Cardinals should be wheeling and dealing with the Angels. They consistently put Chone Figgins on the trading block, and he is exactly the kind of player we need batting in front of albert - gets on base a lot, fast, sees a lot of pitches. Also La Russa loves versitle players like that who can plug holes all over the field. It would be perfect.

I would offer Duncan (a natural DH under contract for another 3-4 years) and Reyes (a pitcher who needs a change of scenery) for Figgins, Santana (another pitcher who needs a change of scenery) and a legit prospect. Maybe we throw in catching prospect Bryan Anderson and try to get back brandon wood (a stud SS/3B prospect for those of you who don't know).

I really feel strongly that we should deal Duncan now to either the Angels or the Twins. Both have the kind of prospects we covet and both badly need a DH. Maybe try to get Garza back for Duncan and Reyes? We could always sweeten the deal with Anderson, I feel like Yadier is going to be behind the plate in STL for a long time to come.

by jnangle472 on Oct 22, 2007 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I Noticed

Bradon Wood and mentioned him in a post. He has a lot of errors the last two years. He played SS in 2006 and had 25 errors, and at 3b in AAA he had 22. I would like to get him, and have him play 3rb in Memphis. He is only 22.

I was also wondering if Hoffpauir shouldn't play some SS in Memphis. I am all for letting Ryan play SS next year.

by nybirdfan on Oct 22, 2007 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Wood

More as a third baseman, he's got a large frame and profiles better at the hot corner. But I have heard he can stick in the Majors as a shortstop. I think if we acquired him, the best scenario would be to play him at short until Rolen is done, then shift him over and maybe by then one of Martinez/Greene/Kozma will be ready to take over.

Still, it's hard to imagine us getting Wood in a deal. Duncan fits ok in LA, but they have an outfield logjam with Rivera returning and I think they like using the DH to give their players some rest here and there. The only potential Reyes deal I can see includes Ervin Santana. Anderson isn't much use to them with Mathis and Conger in the catching picture. I think they'd prefer to keep Wood in the long run.

by mateodh on Oct 23, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

come to think of it

what do the Angels need? They are loaded. Maybe bullpen help? Wood does have company at 3b in Salt Lake. How does Mathew Brown figure in the Angles' plans?

I was interested in the idea of Reyes for Quentin, but now I am more interested in the left side of the infield. Quentin's surgery gives me pause now as well. Would Arizona be willing to talk about Alberto Callaspo?

by nybirdfan on Oct 24, 2007 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there was a gi-normous discussion about this

just last week

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/10/15/91428/421

by lboros on Oct 22, 2007 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I thought last week's discussion was great

but the analysis was framed as a choice in 2008 between Eckstein and Ryan. The topic of a trade deal or a free agent acquisition was mentioned only tangentially. In fact, the conclusion primarily expressed in the thread was that the shortstop position should be addressed, not this off-season, but next off-season due to the large crop of shortstops who may be available then, viz:

if the cards make that commitment, they won't be in a position to pursue the crop of younger, better shortstops (furcal, renteria, uribe, cabrera) who will hit free-agency next off-season. a classic opportunity-cost lesson --- even if ryan doesn't pan out in 2008, at least the cards will have preserved the opportunity to upgrade in 2009.

If this conclusion is right, then I guess the answer to my question is that the shortstop position shouldn't be addressed this year due mostly to a dearth of alternatives. But that doesn't change my feeling that the Cardinals' weakness in the middle in-field is more dire than our shortcomings in the OF.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Oct 22, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if they do address it this year

it might have to be via a trade such as reyes for renteria --- ie, a long-term asset for a short-term one. that would be a mistake, imho, even if they were to extend edgar for another 2-3 years as part of the deal. renteria, too, is on the wrong side of 30, losing range afield and (my opinion) not potent enough at the plate to justify a major commitment of dollars.

in the mid-season post you referenced, i identified youth and speed as the two prime assets the cards need to pursue, with defense a 3d value. ryan is young and fast (7 for 7 in steals for stl last year), and very good w/ the glove --- why not a 1-year trial? not as sexy as a renteria or a furcal, but still moves the team in the right direction.

by lboros on Oct 22, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

100%

by Dankston on Oct 22, 2007 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

shortstop

i'd love to have another top of the rotation type. you can never have too many of those. i don't think it is a realistic option though. odds are slim the cards would be able to meet the price tag whether it is in dollars or prospects. i worry if the cards make it a priority they will become too preoccupied with that search to fill in the other gaps. shortstop is a much more realistic upgrade and i think thats where the cardinals should focus their efforts.

by dmb60614 on Oct 22, 2007 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

omar vizquel

I don't know anything about his availability or what it would take to get him but for a short time solution at ss ( and that seems to be what the cards need) he, to me would be a possible solution. From what I saw of him this year, (and it really wasn't a whole lot) but enough to see that he hadn't lost that much. He was as smooth as always and still had good range and arm. But with what he's lost, he's made up with instinct. I don't care if he is 40 years old, he can still do the job and might be like Luke Appling and can play till he is 45 as Appling did. He ain't no sloutch with the bat either. he gets his hits and works pitchers.

by ridgesee on Oct 22, 2007 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there was a SS...

with the Ark Travelers last season that just raked the ball at Hammons. Wish we could grab him in a trade while the Angels are fairly deep in SS prospects and O. Cabrera is entrenched.

Sean Rodriguez, raw talent 22 year old hits the ball REAL HARD and had the Redbirds defense rocking back and forth on their feet in the field every time he came to the plate. Has some flat out speed to bring as well.

That said, he strikes way out too much, is prone to errors and generally needs to make more contact at the plate, but after some time with Oquendo, he might be able to stay at SS in the majors. He will hit. It might be as an outfielder tho.

Just one hurdle left Clint!! Gooo Clint! Rox vs. Sox?

by cardschinmusic on Oct 23, 2007 4:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

...sorry, this

doesnt address the current needs etc. youre talking about above.

Just one hurdle left Clint!! Gooo Clint! Rox vs. Sox?

by cardschinmusic on Oct 23, 2007 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My solution for SS...

I offer Eck arbitration first and foremost...you await his answer and go from there.

If he accepts, then you have an average SS who only cost you a one year deal. Not too bad, Ryan replaces Miles on the roster and is a big upgrade.
If he declines, I would then go after Ben Zobrist. He's young,very athletic, fast and was an OBP machine in the minors. He's blocked front and behind with the DRays and probably wouldn't cost much. Let him and Ryan compete in ST and see who wins, the loser serves as your utility infielder.

Now all of this changes if Edgar can be had for a song (like some think), but I don't see that as being the case.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Oct 24, 2007 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

As far as Edgar goes, the Braves

are not going to move him for nothing. They don't have to. They need to clear payroll for 2009. If they need to keep him for 2008, or they just want to wait until they get the right deal, they can. I predict they will wait until they can strong arm Detroit for one of their fine young arms, and if it isn't until after next year, they'll just wait.

by jillsinmo on Oct 24, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs