TLR/Youth

by gibbyfan on Oct 20, 2007 12:07 PM EDT Comment 58 comments

Ok I just wanted to say some stuff. All I have read is that Tony is anti-youth. I don't belive it at all. I know it's been said that TLR dosen't play young guys, but what young guys have we got? I mean is he supposed to start Rasmus over J-Ed now? Come on people. I can think of four perfect examples for Tony useing youth.

Matt Morris. All the knocks about Dave Duncan not being able to handle Rookie pitchers, and here is Matty Mo. Morris won over a hundered games, and was a staff ace for a while. Tony said when he first got here that a big reason why he came was because of Morris, showing he planed on useing Morris right from the get go.
Albert Pujols. I know AP only made the roster because of injurys, but lets look at this for a secound. He went up our farm system at crazy speeds, and hadn't played a full year at triple a yet. He was just to young to use yet, kind of like Rasmus now. Then when he came up and proved he could hit, you notice Tony didn't sit him. No Tony put AP in the three hole and let him hit. He didn't have to do that, but he did.
Adam Wainright. Ok there are too parts to this. First Tony went with a Rookie to close games in the postseason. I know you can say all you want about how he tried to use Looper and Flores before he went to Wainer, but yet again he did go with Adam. He could have done the whole red sox closer by commite, but he didn't. He gave the ball to Adam in the most important moment of the season (Beltran). Then just look at last year. For as bad as Reyes did, Wainright killed. I think that Duncan can work wonders, for any pitcher, if they just listen to him.
Rick Ankiel. I know that they didn't call Slick Rick up as early as everybody want him to be called, but he was out of options. He needed everday at-bats, and he could only get them at memphis. We had Enc, Dunc, and J-Ed in the outfield at the time, and off the bench Ludwick was hitting at the time. If you called him up he would be the fifth out fielder, and not getting at-bats. Then when he did get called up, he was in the starting line up the first night. Anybody remember Enc being anger because he the vet was sitting as Rick the Rook got to start?

That's what I've got to say. I didn't get much sleep, so take that into consideration. Have at.

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as a response to this

you have support the four most popular players that people use as a way to defend tony and say hes not against using young players. except you are referring to rick the hitter, not rick the pitcher.... weird

anyway as a response this im sure there are people here who can think of way more youngsters that tony has avoided using at all costs so ill start it off and you all can add on.

1. adam wainwright lost the starting role in '06 along with anthony reyes, to SIDNEY PONSON. tony gave the job to a pitcher who everyone knows is bad instead of two youngsters with potential

which brings me to
2. anthony reyes -- if you dont know how tony handled him you dont watch cards baseball, absolutely despicable

there are a few more i can think of, john rodriguez was never given a shot. -- trading hector luna (after starting miles over him every day) for a few months of ronnie belliard, etc.

nobody is saying tony is "anti-youth" he just prefers veterans and will often play veterans over more qualified youngsters because "theyve earned it" or whatever reason, sometimes even hurting the team to do so. (kip wells)

by Dankston on Oct 20, 2007 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hector Luna?

It's kinda hard to argue with the Wainwright situation two years ago. While I agree that having Ponson in the rotation was a bad idea, I don't necessarily think Wainwright was the right guy for the situation either. Plus, if LaRussa hadn't stuck with Wainwright in the bullpen the entire year, we don't win the World Series. Period.
Reyes hasn't exactly forced his way into the starting rotation the past two years. While he's had 2 great starts, he's had way too many mediocre to piss-poor starts to use him as an example. He's given the coaching staff zero reasons to have faith in him, and I have a feeling it goes beyond his performance on the field (which has been subpar) and on to his attitude and preparation.
Rodriguez probably should have gotten more of a chance but he did battle injuries last year before being shut down completely. And I think he's hampered by the fact he hits lefty when we already have Edmonds and Duncan as lefties as well as Schumaker. Apparantly they see Skip as a better overall outfielder with his defense and speed and overall versitility. Can't say I disagree.
Please leave Hector Luna out of any discussion of LaRussa and his use of young players. Luna's a fringe (at best) major leaguer) who bounced between the MLB and AAA last year....again. He's 27 and still hasn't materialized into anything. Say what you will about the trade for Belliard, but to wish for Luna is misguided.

And you mentioned Ankeil the pitcher. Um...he was pretty young (20?) when LaRussa showed so much faith in him only to watch him unravel in a big game and never recover.

And to the list of young players LaRussa has put into starting roles, I'd add Duncan and I'd ask Ozzie Smith how he feels about Royce Clayton.

by Big Red on Oct 20, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

big red is right

Those counter-examples aren't convincing. I'm tired of this Tony is anti-youth stuff too. He prefers to go with known quantities, but he doesn't act blindly toward talent. The problem seems to me to be a case of not having the young talent around to dislodge the known but fading veterans. And most of the guys people seem to gripe about aren't that talented. Rodriguez wasn't outstanding by any stretch of the imagination. Reyes has been terrible and has squandered his talent. Luna? Luna played, Luna was decent, see you later Luna there is plenty more just like you.

The one obvious one is the Tony/Walt Haren for Mulder trade. That one was regrettable in hind-sight, but Mulder was still young at the time, and had Cy Young talent.

Another thing to consider is that many managers who are praised for letting the youngsters play are letting the youngsters play because they have no choice. All they got is youngsters.

by abothebear on Oct 21, 2007 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Royce Clayton?

Yeah, there's a guy worth benching a Hall of Fame shortstop for. It would be great if you never mentioned that again. As for your other points:

While Ponson cost us nothing, what does that say to guys like Reyes and Wainwright who are excelling at AAA? It's that type of "mediocre veteran over promising prospect" that drives the majority of us nuts. Also see signings of Adam Kennedy, So Taguchi, Aaron Miles, LARRY BIGBIE!!!
Reyes hasn't pitched well, that's true. Does that mean that they should have traded for Mike Maroth, who hasn't pitched well in 2 years, and signed Tomo Ohka (who's always stunk royally)??? The Piniero trade I don't have too much of an issue with because they gave up nothing and got back a guy who's been successful in the past and is still relatively young. The jury is still out on the 2 year deal he got, although he didn't pitch horribly in his time in St. Louis in '07
J-Rod is a AAAA player -- for sure. He's proven that he can't hit big league lefties and he doesn't have as much pop as Duncan or Ankiel, so his time in this organization is probably numbered. Skip is a better option and can do a lot more for the ballclub as a utility player. On this point we seem to be in agreement.
Trading Luna really didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time. The consensus among my Cardinal friends was that Belliard was a preliminary deal to another, bigger deal that fell through and we ended up stuck with Ronnie -- who performed well down the stretch and in the playoffs. That said, Luna never really got a legitamate chance to prove himself with the Birds. Platooning with Miles didn't give us an idea of what Luna could do as an everyday player, then we traded him for a career underachiever, then went out and replace Miles with Adam Kennedy for 6 times what we would have paid Hector in '07. This just doesn't add up in terms of payroll or talent development.

As for the other guys you mention -- I agree with the original reply to this post: Any manager worth his lineup card would play those guys -- they're extremely talented!!! The difference is with younger players, especially pitchers. Look at Colorado's pitching staff -- almost all homegrown guys, excepting Fogg, and Hurdle gave a bunch of those guys a shot after their pitching was absolutely awful in 2006. Hmmmmm, sounds very similar to what the Cardinals are facing this offseason. Either sign a crappy veteran starter and trade Reyes, give Reyes another shot, or maybe just deal Reyes and Duncan for young talent that can help in '09 and hope for the best next season and make a significant payroll addition in '09 with a couple of big signings and the addition of Rasmus. I'm for the last option: it's the cheapest, makes the most sense, and also gives the organization a shot to see if Rick is for real and whether Rolen can become a middle of the order hitter again.

Bottom line - and I've been steadfast with this opinion on these boards - Tony and Duncan aren't good at taking chances with cheap, young players who might be able to get the job done. They'd much rather have a veteran that might not have as much upside, but is dependable and consistent. The problem with this is that those players simply don't come cheap nowadays -- you have to pay arbitration determined salaries to those players and it doesn't economically make sense unless you have no payroll consciousness, ala Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Oct 22, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Belliard in '06

You might want to revise your memory of Belliard's play for us in '06. During the last two months of '06, he was awful offensively (WPA had him as one of the worst hitters in the NL that year and that was in just 211 PA's) and his defense was rather average (he had a great arm and made some amazing plays, but he lacked significant range & played so far out of position that the plays he was able to pull off were so odd he appeared to be defensively gifted). I didn't have a major problem with his slovenly appearance and I appreciated the plays he did make, but his performance in '06 was far from exemplary.

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Oct 22, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a million dollar gamble

on Ponson was worth it! Turns out he didn't get his stuff together and was let go. Not a very high risk signing.

The one player most of the posters here have not mentioned is Yaddy. Remember the conversation was that Yaddi wasn't ready to be a starter. Molina needed more time to develop is hitting. The Cards decided to let the vet Matheny walk.

The question isn't wether or not Tony plays younger players. The fact is when he has had younger players worth playing he has played them!

by nybirdfan on Oct 21, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony has a good eye for talent

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about how perceptive Tony is with young players. If they are good, they play right away and get a lot of at bats. See Pujols, Duncan, Molina, Ankiel.

The problem people seem to have is that Tony isn't playing the average young players like Skip, J-Rod, Ludwick, Ryan, etc. Noe of these guys are standouts (and most importantly, never will be) so who can blame Tony for going with experience, intangibles, etc.

Give him great young talent and he will play them.

by The Duke on Oct 21, 2007 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

These guys weren't difficult to play

Any manager would have played these guys -- they were either great hitters, had tons of power, or a ++ arm behind the plate. It didn't take a great eye for talent to see that.

But with the average guys, Tony seems to give them few chances. They're put on a very short leash and very often are never given the opportunity b/c Tony prefers to go w/ "proven" veterans. The one thing we know about these "proven" vets usually is that it is proven that they're mediocre -- Ponson is an excellent example.

Any manager would play great talent but Tony could do better by giving some of the less "talented" young players an opportunity. Will we ever find out whether or not Hoffpauir can be a major-league regular or will the job automatically go to Kennedy or some other "proven" vet? We'll never find out whether or not Ryan can be a major-league regular b/c Tony prefers Eckstein. Is Eckstein better? Certainly not defensively and we'll never find out if he's better offensively, b/c Ryan won't get a chance. Instead, we'll go w/ the 33-34 year old making $5-6 M instead of the 26 year old earning the minimum.

by chuckb on Oct 21, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmmm

Aside from Haren, how many young (or young when they left the Cards) players have left our team and been successful? Seems to me LaRussa plays the young guys with talent, and doesn't play those without talent. Pujols, Yadi, Dunc, Wainer, Ankiel, are/were all young guys that LaRussa let play....I can't think of any that LaRussa didn't play or give a chance to, that went on to oodles of success on other teams. Please give me names, if you think of them, bc I am at a loss.

by joecardsfan on Oct 22, 2007 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony loves young players

Miguel Cairo is just coming into his prime guys, surely players like Brendan Ryan or any of our players in the minors couldn't even come close to put up a .343 slugging percentage.

I'm just waiting for the to re-sign John Mabry and Orlando Palmeiro. Plus I heard Fernando Vina is looking to come back.

by bwit43 on Oct 20, 2007 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cairo

At the point the Cardinals signed Miguel Cairo last year, they were just looking for a warm body to fill out the roster, probably. There were so many injuries, they could not even do that.

stlfan

by stlfan on Oct 20, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And he still started Miguel Cairo over

Brian Barden, someone who could have used the time to get a taste of the big leagues. And he screamed at Brendan Ryan in full view of the TV cameras and all of his teammates. No, he might play a guy who's going to be a star, but he ain't going out of his way to put a potentially average major leaguer, or even just a serviceable major leaguer if he's a youngster.

by jillsinmo on Oct 20, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brendan Ryan is an idiot

Always has been, always will be. He doesn't listen and he laughs off mistakes and doesn't seem to inclined to improve. He's been like that, even back in college when he got kicked off his team.

The guy can play a little and gets by on natural ability, but it doesn't excuse his actions. Plus, he's able to take a yelling "on tv" since he doesn't care what anyone thinks of him anyway.

by Big Red on Oct 20, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess you know him Mr. Ryan.....

It's inexcusable to talk to someone like that when you are in a position of authority. I don't care if he made a mistake; I'm all for giving him a going over, just not in front of everyone else.

by jillsinmo on Oct 20, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scream at Ryan

>>It's inexcusable to talk to someone like that when you are in a position of authority.<<

I agree with this point completely. Small minded people when placed in positions of authority yell at subordinates. There is no excuse. None. TLR's error in judgment was magnified as he did it in front of the TV audience and all the kid's teammates. It was a Bobby Knight play. I detest coaching bullies. Others excuse all boorish behavior as long as the boor wins. I cannot.

by jjray on Oct 21, 2007 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll bet Ryan never does it again.

I'm a college athlete, (D-3 so no bigie) and my coach does the whole Bob Knight thing, and don't get me wrong when he yells at you, you hate him for it. Having said that, you never make that same mistake again, cause you don't want to be chewed again. Tony won't ever be Joe Torre, but he's never tried to be. It's the same reason why Rolen hate's him, and the Cardnials will never get A-Rod. I'm not saying it's the best way, I'm just saying the reasoning behind it.

Save the Kipper don't make him go back out there.

by gibbyfan on Oct 21, 2007 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just the reasoning behind it

Let's say I'm a business owner who hires illegal immigrant Mexicans to work at my business. Why? So I can underbid the competition who pay a living wage to its workers and still turn a profit. I'm not saying it's the best way, I'm just saying the reasoning behind it.
(Satire)

by jjray on Oct 21, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

(Satire)

I didn't see that until the end because that's where you had it.....wow, you almost got my blood pressure up to dangerous levels. I'm okay now......good point.

by jillsinmo on Oct 21, 2007 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Low

We're talking sports, not real life. Tony ain't doing anything against the law. Come on people, this is just a game.

Save the Kipper don't make him go back out there.

by gibbyfan on Oct 21, 2007 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Roman Coliseum

Reporting today from the Roman Coliseum. The Christians had a rough go of it, 32 eaten by lions, 12 crucified. However, the gladiators put on a good show, the emperor went thumbs down on only 4 who had their throats slashed. But it was a wonderful spectacle for the senate and people of Rome (SPQR). Let's lighten up. We're talking sports, not real life.

(Satire).

by jjray on Oct 21, 2007 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

I really can't belive you just comparied baseball to the gladiator games.

Save the Kipper don't make him go back out there.

by gibbyfan on Oct 21, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

And I can't believe you can't see an example of stretching an argument to an absurd level as a tool of amusing argument ... but a way of expanding one's mind.

by jjray on Oct 22, 2007 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

You got me there. I guess you do have a very good point. I was being a little bit pig headed, and I'll admit I may have been looking for a fight when I first posted the bit about my coach. Interesting comparison though. How high of rateings do you think the games would get if they where around today?

Save the Kipper don't make him go back out there.

by gibbyfan on Oct 22, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nonsense

">>It's inexcusable to talk to someone like that when you are in a position of authority.<<"

To elaborate on this a little bit, it's not wrong at all to challenge Ryan for his mistake. In fact it's pretty much mandatory. When you are a Commander -- and make no mistake, that's what TLR is in the dugout -- and a man under your command ignores your order, you basically have 2 choices. You either challenge them, or you lose your authority. That's how it works in a testosterone-charged environment, whether it's in a baseball dugout or in a humvee in iraq. That's the way it has worked since Attila the Hun was doing his thing and that's the way it'll be when Anthony Reyes' great-great grandson finally figures out how to throw an effective 2-seamer.

However, a leader's judgment -- his most valuable possession -- determines when he challenges the insubordinate player. IMHO TLR's great mistake was when he snapped and attacked Ryan when he did. That conversation should have been had in TLR's office after the game, and Ryan should have sat for a week with a "groin injury" in punishment. By failing to keep his emotions in check, TLR embarrassed Ryan in front of his teammates and therefore cost himself respect, with Ryan but also with the veterans (who know the game).

by SleepyCA on Oct 22, 2007 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

very well explained--completely agree with you

by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, I didn't know Brendan Ryan had

been on reality TV. I guess that's how you're privy to so many intimate details about his life.

He's a rookie who was playing a new position and he had to take up that position for the first time in the big leagues. Sometimes he seemed nervous. He often looked mad at himself when he made mistakes. And lots of times he seemed just happy to be out there. From what I could see, he put all his energy into doing whatever he was asked.

Have you ever watched Jose Reyes? He expresses a similar kind of giddiness when he plays the game and he also frequently gets talked to by veterans and coaches. Maybe that bubbly energy helps a person be a good shortstop. I, for one, enjoyed seeing someone with extra zip, someone who wasn't afraid to make things happen, like stealing bases.

And I still say Tony was wrong to treat him the way he did on public TV. I'm OK with Tony coming back because I want the team to win while they are rebuilding. But that incident showed the side of Tony I don't like.

by nycardfan on Oct 21, 2007 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jarrett Hoffpauir was a warm body

who might have worked out a lot better, and we'd be much more informed about our 2B situation next year.

by mateodh on Oct 20, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now that's a very good point

by ridgesee on Oct 20, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just remembered yesterday that Jose

Visciano was on the team last year. Wow.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 20, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It is kind of discouraging to young minor league

prospects when you constantly see the parent club recycling old vet players at your position and you are left to wonder "how do I fit in here." La Russa has developed this repretation deservedly or not by his tendency to often do this. Too much of this and a farm system can go stale. I, like a lot of other fans keep up daily with all the minor league clubs and when a need arises at the top you always have your eye on somebody you think might be deserving a look see. Hoffpaiur should have been given a look at least by Sept. We fans deserved it. Especially when you're out of the race. Who wanted Cairo or Branyan but La Russa. Tony will call up someone when there is no other option. If you're hot, you stick awhile, you cool off, you go back down. Tony doesn't provide much inspiration to young players it seems. If Willie Mays had come to the Giants as a young 20 year old and La Russa had been the manager, Willie might not have had a career. He went something like 0 for 47, but Durocher took him aside and said. "Son, you might as well start hitting, cause the job is yours and you ain't going nowhere."

by ridgesee on Oct 20, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, did I forget,

the Giants went on to win the NL pennant and Willie became a WS hero.

by ridgesee on Oct 20, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have mixed feelings about TLR and youth

On the one hand, he played many new (young) players this year. Ludwick has played more than any of us could have expected. Schumaker played a lot during the regular season--in fact, we went one pitcher short for two weeks just to keep Skip in games. Duncan was played sometimes to an extreme, in my opinion. He played injured when a veteran could have easily (and reasonably) taken over his position. And Ryan was in the field nearly every day until he injured his heel. Wainwright, Thompson, Reyes, and Welleymeyer all had opportunities to be on the mound.

In some ways, this seemed like the year of youth. On the other hand, I wanted to see more of Barden and Schumaker in September, and I defnitely wanted to see less of Cairo and Branyon. And as I said above, I really objected to TLR's treatment of Ryan at times, as well as his treatment of Thompson.

I think TLR has double standards that are oriented towards people he knows and trusts. More often than I like, that means he chooses to rely on his veterans. But it also went the other way this year--playing Akiel over Encarnacion, playing Schumaker over Taguchi, and for a time, playing Ryan over Eckstein or Miles. I don't think TLR is anti-youth. But he does have double standards that can be very frustrating.

by nycardfan on Oct 21, 2007 12:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You are right,

Tony can be abusive to younger players. He has abused Thompson for two years running. Thompson must have a good arm to survive the way he has been used at times. I think he did damage to Cavasas, Heminez and pretty much destroyed Troy Cate. When the pitching fell apart this year, he badly misused those four.

by ridgesee on Oct 21, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Especially Cavasos.....remember the game

when he hit a batter in the head (pure accident) and even though Cavasos was visibly shaken, and even though LaRussa has stated in the past that any pitcher who hits a batter in the head should be suspended for 30 days, he left him in there, while he continued to get beaten badly. You know, those guys are just organizational soldiers; they don't figure into the clubs plans and he really did abuse them and treated them that way. It's the side of Mr. LaRussa I do not like-if you're not one of his favorites, and if he has no use for you, you are no more than something to be taken out with the trash.
I don't happen to think that Cavasos is an MLB caliber pitcher, and I don't know if he ever will be, but he certainly deserved a little humanity from Tony after the beaning, and he didn't get it.

by jillsinmo on Oct 21, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you on that

LaRussa holds a double standard when it comes to his own players in regards to the getting hit in the head thing. As soon as he uttere those words, I counted the days until a Cardinals pitcher hit someone in the head. I figured it'd be a guy like Izzy or Looper or another one of LaRussa's faves, but when it happened to Cavazos and TLR still did nothing....I thought that said a lot about his character and how he speaks without thinking.

However, I am going to disagree with you on how LaRussa treated Cavazos. This isn't little league and Cavazos is a grown man doing a job. He hit a guy in the head, it sucks, but it happens. Now some guys would never recover from having hit someone like that, Cavazos was able to go on. Good for him, but by taking him out and treating him like a scared little child only incourages the feelings that he really screwed up. It was an accident, he didn't do it on purpose so he shouldn't feel bad about it. He should know that what he did was dangerous, but it was an accident.

If you make a bit deal out of it, it becomes a big deal.

by Big Red on Oct 21, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He walked the next batter; gave up a hit to the

next batter, and about five more before he finally took him out. He hadn't pitched well before the beaning either....so I think it would have been the merciful thing to do. Yes, Cavazos is a grown man, and he's probably hit someone with a pitch along the way, but it's the hypocrisy-if he took him out, he would have to use an extra bullpen arm and he didn't want to do that-so it would be helpful if he just stopped saying it since he doesn't really mean it.

by jillsinmo on Oct 21, 2007 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely.

I just think they're two different topics. One topic is whether to protect/baby a pitcher, the other topic is that TLR talks out of his ass.

I definately agree with you on the latter. Just don't let Tony hear us talking about this...he might come after us with a fungo bat!!

by Big Red on Oct 21, 2007 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, they are two different topics or maybe

three, but that's the way I roll. Sometimes my fingers type quicker than my brain thinks. I'm trying to cut back on the caffeine....

by jillsinmo on Oct 21, 2007 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think that this is Tony's real issue with youth:

First, he doesn't seem to feel that the majors are the place to learn baseball fundamentals. He's trying to win games now, not teach some prospect how to win games two years from now.

Secondly, if out of necessity (or some other reason) a player is learning how to play the game or a position at the major league level, that player damn well better to things the TLR/Duncan way AND damn well better bust his butt during the learning process.

by bailorg on Oct 21, 2007 1:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I meant "do things", not to

by bailorg on Oct 21, 2007 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're right about that

although he clearly makes exceptions, like for Duncan and Ankiel. They both received favorable treatment, even though they were still learning about fundamentals.

by nycardfan on Oct 21, 2007 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The key (IMO)

is "bust his butt"... Is Chris Duncan an accomplished MLB OF? Of course not... but he earned TLR's (and his fellow players') respect because of all the work he did with Dave McKay to try to improve.

Most teams that "play the kids" don't have any other options. The Cards aren't alone there...

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Oct 21, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's true. We do have lots of options

and that does make it difficult to compare our team to some others who are filled with little else than youth.

by nycardfan on Oct 21, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will disagree with you about that a bit......

the Braves play their youngsters right when they bring them up-Cox puts them in the line up and keeps them there for awhile, and they usually have other options. Also the Angels and Diamondbacks. They will move the veteran out of the line up in favor of the promising youngster-in fact, the Diamondbacks pretty much shed their veterans completely from the team, and the Angels will trade or let veterans walk to free up a spot for the promising youngster. They chose to keep Howie Kendrick at 2nd and let Adam Kennedy walk. There are teams that have good farm systems and are always looking to get their guys to the big club.
I'd like to see what current management does if some of the promising players at AA are doing well at AAA by the middle of next year-are they going to open a spot for them? Even call them up?

by jillsinmo on Oct 21, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm still

Laughing about JJray's comment calling TLR small minded. That's a joke.
As far as I'm concerned, any player(Ryan) who is too stupid to tell a cabbie in New York which stadium to take him to before a game deserves every public ass chew he can stomach. And then some.

by The Butcher on Oct 21, 2007 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey, the Mets announcers reported

that it was the Cabbie's fault, and they left it an open question as to whether the Cabbie was intentionally messing with Ryan or not. But they did make it clear that Ryan asked to go to the right stadium. I don't know what the Mets radio announcers have to gain by blaming the cab driver and protecting Ryan.

Ryan is a obviously a character. I guess that brings out the mean side of some people, including some posters. If Ryan has talent and if he's generally a decent guy, I'm going to support him. I don't care if he's quirky. Perhaps the team needs a little of that.

by nycardfan on Oct 21, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think being quirky

got him kicked off his college baseball team.

by Big Red on Oct 22, 2007 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That for the most part related

to time-keeping difficulties, which he has continued to have on occasion with the Cards. No one that I've heard of in the Cards' organization has thought that's intentional. He had to confront certain problems related to hyperactivity when he was younger, but he's developed strategies to overcome most of those obstacles. Time-keeping remains an issue, however, and the Cards have figured out ways to deal with that in a constructive manner. I think that could be interpreted by coaches and others as being quirky, although it shouldn't be, since he's worked hard to succeed.

His "mental toughness" is talked about as a positive character trait in a couple of MLB articles, written after Brendan Ryan's dad died at the age of 63. His dedication and hard work, in the face of adversity, is very clear from these articles.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060218&content_id=42328&vkey=news_ milb&fext=.jsp

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060418&content_id=58915&vkey=news_ milb&fext=.jsp

by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MLB articles = MILB articles

by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would Tony have played Dustin Pedroia

or insisted on signing Adam Kennedy or some other vet?

Is Jarrett Hoffpauir any different from Pedroia? I hope we get a chance to find out.

by chuckb on Oct 22, 2007 12:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maturity...

I don't see Tony having problem with youth, he has a problem with IMMATURITY. Someone that comes up and plays the game professionally (and hard) wins Tony's respect (ala: Wainright, Duncan, Pujols, Ankiel, Yadi, ect.). The players that may have been a little spoiled or off-beat (read: Unproffessional) are given an extremely short leash. These players can either grow up, or be sent back to the minors.

To be honest, Tony reminds me of a tough love parent... in a good way.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Oct 22, 2007 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that's true

Reyes and Thompson are both mature. There is nothing wrong with their characters. And Tony dealt with them in an arbitrary and I would say disrepectful way on a number of occasions. I thought TLR treated Wainwright badly during Waino's "sore arm" period. He blasted him in the press in what I considered to be an unprofessonal way. Thank goodness for Edmonds who stepped in and figured how to deal with the problem and ironed out the tensions. TLR didn't know how to deal with it.

Tony is no saint and he has a bad temper. Young guys often don't know the roadmap around his temper. As I said, I'm OK with TLR coming back. I also would have been OK with him leaving if they had found a replacement who was dedicated to keeping the team in contention. But I'm under no illusion that Tony is just a "tough love" parent. I think of him as a flawed person, as are most of us. But I'm not going to overlook his flaws just because he's our manager.

by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I respectfully disagree

I wouldn't say that Thompson is all that mature at all. His little temper tantrums and pouty fits on the mound are evidence of that. He got in TLR's doghouse this year for giving up a yack, getting pissed, and going up and in on the next guy. That isn't the sign of a mature pitcher, its Carlos Zambrano behavior.

I think you're mostly right about Reyes...He's always taken the blame in the press for his struggles, and while he may be a little stubborn in trying to take advice from Duncan (at least from my POV), that isn't a sign of immaturity in my mind.

by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 22, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well if Thompson's temper makes him immature

then TLR must not be mature either since he has the same problem. He often blows up at players and that leads at times to problematic tensions in the clubhouse that are not healthy for the team. Or TLR just decides not to communicate with players, which also leaves them aggrevated at times. Very grown up.

I'm not against TLR. But I do think he's a mixed bag.

by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

TLR

I'm not saying that LaRussa is a saint, but most players that play for him like him and respect him. Compared to other managers, he's very protective of them and does not talk about them to the media (at least, he doesn't do it much). I don't think he's just hard on Reyes and Thompson to haze them, I think (he feels) there is a legitimate reason to do this (like a rule being broken willingly). He gives more slack to veteran players, but I think they've earned it. Most of the conjecture about Tony is unsubstantiated rumors and inuendo. From the facts, I have no problem with the way he's handled players in the past.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Oct 22, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Believe me, if Reyes broke a rule

"willingly" it would be the headline in the Post Dispatch. They criticized every bad pitch he made all year long, and high lighted every mistake he made along the way. It's really simple-he couldn't adapt to throwing a two seamer, and they don't want someone who can't throw a two seamer. They don't want a pitcher that works inside-that's how Reyes has pitched his entire career. They decided he needed to be a ground ball pitcher-and he just can't be that. So why all the criticism? Just keep your mouth shut and trade him for someone more to your liking.

by jillsinmo on Oct 22, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've

never heard anything about LaRussa not wanting a pitcher to pitch inside. Up in the zone, yes. Inside, no.

by The Butcher on Oct 22, 2007 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reyes

he just had flat out horrible command this year. I don't think he is a 6 ERA guy but he is not a 3 ERA guy either. I think he is more of a 4 ERA guy which is not bad at all, but I would trade him in a heartbeat if we could get something with more potential than he has.

I do not hate Reyes nor do I think he is one step away from being the best thing either. He is very average and just had a below average year.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 23, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs