The drawn out GM search...

by airhad on Oct 18, 2007 12:12 PM EDT Comment 35 comments

Hey folks. I'd just like to pick the collective brains of all of you out here. Why do you think the job search for a GM is taking so long?

Especially for those of you out there who work in hiring or HR or have been involved in the hiring process, what should be going on here?

I'm hoping that we're waiting for Antonetti to become available...but the latest story in the P-D says, "Declining to discuss specific candidates, DeWitt refused to give a reason for the delay other than to note other teams also are conducting organizational meetings at this time."

here's the link to the story:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/EA04B729F548C9D6862573780014AAD0 ?OpenDocument

Thoughts?

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I just hope

That, if they are going to drag it out, there's a reason and they bring someone new in.

If they drag this out only to put Mozeliak in the chair, it's a huge waste of time.

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Oct 18, 2007 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's part of what bothers me...

I'm worried that the longer this drags on, the more Mozeliak puts his fingerprints over the club. Now there's a rumor that he's trying to re-sign Eckstein. What's next? Talk Pedro Guerrero out of retirement?

by airhad on Oct 18, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Antonetti

wants to wait to do anything until Cleveland's done. If DeWitt's waiting on Antonetti, it would take until the WS is over. (assuming they beat Boston)

by chuckb on Oct 18, 2007 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

waiting for antonetti

yes please

Acquire AJ Burnett!

by TheFranchise9 on Oct 18, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

another possibility

I too hope Antonetti is the reason that the search is taking longer than DeWitt initially indicated and TLR requested. If DeWitt was going to hire Mozeliak, what's the big deal, eh? Could be a good sign that DeWitt does not favor Mozeliak. One can only pray. But there is another option why things are dragging out beyond waiting for Antonetti or another GM candidate whose team is still in it: i.e., the guys DeWitt has targeted have turned him down so he is going to 2nd tier candidates.

Reasons Cards GM position may be unattractive to top tier candidates:

Luhnow has control of scouting, drafting, and the entire minor league system except those players on the 40 man roster.
Mozeliak / Walt have basically built the roster for next season already. Not to say trades are not possible but lots of bad contracts make that difficult.
The new GM more and more is likely to inherit TLR and his vice grip on the major league club. I'm convinced that the moves the team has made since the end of the season (picking up the option on Izzy and signing Joel P. were done at the urging of LaDuncan).

So the new GM has no control over the minor league system / drafting / nor the 25 man roster. Maybe they will let him coach third base in Memphis?

by jjray on Oct 18, 2007 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's a good point...

You'd have to imagine that one of the first questions any candidate is going to ask about during the interview process is - what's the job description? What are the responsibilities? What control do I have? How much influence over scouting, development, 40 man, 25 man, etc?

by airhad on Oct 18, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope this is not the case

but that thought has crossed my mind as well.

by chuckb on Oct 18, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

jjray, I think you are

pretty much on the money and If the rumor of Eckstien trying to be signed proves true then you know La Duncan is calling the shots.

by ridgesee on Oct 18, 2007 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm going to turn things on their head

and think about whether TLR could have a positive influence on the GM search. I don't think we can attract strong candidates like Antonetti, or Woodfork, or anyone else who currently holds a successful position, unless we have a stong GM position to offer them.

And I don't think we will have a strong GM position unless TLR advocates for putting player development (and Luhnow) completely under their control. That's the only way I can see the job being attractive to someone like Antonetti or Woodfork. And, IMHO, I think there's only one person with the organizational power who could convince DeWitt to go in that direction--and that's TLR.

This is optimistic, but TLR is the old pioneer in using statistics as a manager. I could see him supporting a young, confident candidate if they exhibited good scouting intuitions along with an established record in player development. Mo reportedly has very good relations with agents and could still be in charge of negotiating veteran contracts. A GM who is mostly interested in player development might not mind leaving that in Mo's charge.

by nycardfan on Oct 18, 2007 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is total speculation, but I would think

that TLR might be more open to Woodfork because he's worked extensively both for the Boston Red Sox and the Diamondbacks, and, with those teams, he would have acquired experience with veterans as well as with new, young players. I may be totally wrong about this, but he also sounds like he may be more outgoing than Antonelli. Woodfork reportedly has very good communcation skills (wouldn't that be a change?) with players and with staff members under his direction. And he does have some baseball experience (4 years with Harvard's baseball team--hee, hee, hee).

by nycardfan on Oct 18, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Irony...

Am I missing something here or is it ironic that DeWitt seems to be saying he wants to focus on player development, yet the GM he wants to hire will have less control and authority in that regard...and the GM prospects we're talking about are reknown for their player development track record.

Shouldn't the organizational structure flow from the top down...and in this case the top being the GM? Shouldn't the GM then dictate this? Ideally? Especially if they have a successful track record in player development and fielding successful ballclubs?

by airhad on Oct 18, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're exactly right

by nycardfan on Oct 18, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It makes me want to puke

just the thought that LaRussa is having an impact on the GM search (though most probably believe it to be true) is positively asinine. LaRussa has, what, a couple of years left w/ the team? But he's going to help select the person who will steer the direction of the entire organization for the next several years? Does this make any sense to anyone?

I don't believe that LaRussa's commitment is to the future or to player development. He may recognize the need, but it runs counter to his history and to current situation. He has just a few years left and is the person who tries to win championships w/ established rosters -- not take mediocre organizations to the playoffs. He's a "win-now" sort of guy and, given the fact that his career is winding down, this makes sense. But it's the opposite of the "player-development" philosophy that we were (or maybe just I was) led to believe would be occurring (and certainly needs to occur).

The new GM should be picking the manager, not the other way around. If the new GM picks LaRussa, I'll disagree but respect the decision. If LaRussa picks the new GM, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark!

by chuckb on Oct 18, 2007 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mediocre team

he took a mediocre team to the playoffs last year. Made a run at it this year with a less than mediocre team...

Why should Big Bill not get input from Tony??? The guy is a hall of fame manager. I think he knows something about baseball. And I don't think that Tony is so selfish as to jeaprodize the long term future of an organization so he can try to win next year. Getting Tony's input does not mean that Tony is picking the GM. If Tony was pulling the strings, as is often suggested here and elsewhere, would Jocketty have ever been fired???

by cdb on Oct 18, 2007 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

having an impact is not necessarily choosing....

My worry is that someone like Antonetti will not take the job if he does not have full control over player development, including what role Luhnow will play in the organization.

If player development were my area of expertise, I'd be less concerned about a well known manager who doesn't involve himself in player development decisions, and I'd be more concerned about a young "untouchable" who already controls player development.

Whose territory (TLR's or Luhnow's) would someone like Antonetti be more interested in controlling?

by nycardfan on Oct 18, 2007 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We're talking about the hiring

of the most important person in the front office, a guy who is going to set the direction and tone for possibly the next decade for a multi-million-dollar, high-profile organization, and we're upset because it's taking too LONG?

Unbelievable. This decision is damned important, I hope they take their sweet time and make sure they get it right.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 18, 2007 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you; take as long as necessary to

find the right fit. There is no reason to hire someone who doesn't want to work with Luhnow--this organization desperately needs a better farm system, and someone who knows how to evaluate talent....I mean I already hear talk of trading Anderson because we have Molina....Anderson is 20 years old in AA--I DON'T THINK SO; he's the kind you keep to build your future around--if it ain't at catcher, be creative with him. Find him a new position...that's the kind of GM I want to see.

by jillsinmo on Oct 18, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't read any posts as being upset

with how long the search is taking. Just speculating about what it might mean.

by nycardfan on Oct 18, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly right

It's not the time per se that is the issue (BTW, TLR said to Strauss it was very important we have a new GM in a matter of days ... and he said this over a week ago). The question is what the time means for predicting the outcome of the process. We're trying to read the tea leaves like the old days of the Soviet Union or when they elect a new pope at the Vatican.

by jjray on Oct 18, 2007 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

...conjecture?

Where does it state anywhere above this post (thread), that anyone was "upset" with the time being taken to fill the GM position. On top of that, there are people showing "Im with you" support for something someone thought someone else said that was never said to begin with?

I was thinking the time being taken is a good thing...it may mean were getting ready to rebuild AND try be competitive this year!

The diary issue in question was based on speculation about how the time being used might factor into the outcome of the decision. The only people upset in this diary thread are the TLR haters. TLR has been good for Cardinal baseball, I hope it continues.

Just one hurdle left Clint!! Gooo Clint! Rox vs. Sox?

by cardschinmusic on Oct 19, 2007 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm standing by my comment.

The diary itself raises the issue of time, and the first 2 commenters used the phrase "drag" in reference to it. To me that's an implication that they're worried about the time being taken, and my point is that a FAST decision, not a more drawn-out one, would be a cause for worry.

And, BTW, I'm not a "TLR-hater." I'm more of a "I wish TLR would go to some other team-er," actually.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 19, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

....stand by it!!

I was only considering the diary posters lead-in setting the tone for the thread, which was pretty positive and the TLR hater was not intended to include you, but the persons ready to vomit if (when!!!) he returns.

Just one hurdle left Clint!! Gooo Clint! Rox vs. Sox?

by cardschinmusic on Oct 21, 2007 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

TLR

I think TLR has tremendous amount of respect for this organization. I am tired of people thinking he is some ahole now. He probably does voice his opinion because he cares. He has coached here 12 years and would not have done so if he did not have the utmost respect for the Cardinals Organization.

It is dragging on but it is an important decision and we need to make sure all the proper people get intervied. It is a busy time of year for front office people so I think that it may take some time to interview candidates.

That is my take.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 18, 2007 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i don't think tony is an a-hole

but at the same time i think he's being given too much input into these decisions. i agree w/ you that he cares; i disagree, though, that his input is helpful. in my opinion it's the opposite.

nothing personal against tony.

by lboros on Oct 19, 2007 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it seems to me...

If I were doing the hiring, I'd certainly let TLR feel heard. Let him meet with me and share his views. Doesn't mean I'd have to act on his recommendations. He deserves that. However, I don't think he should have that opportunity if he's not contracted. That seems pretty backasswards.

However, if TLR is having a lot of input, being consulted routinely, while Mozeliak is re-signing our mediocre FA's willy-nilly...well, it sorta seems like the inmates are running the asylum.

by airhad on Oct 19, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I couldn't care less

if Tony is an a-hole. Aren't we all a-holes from time to time? Who cares?

Tony does care, but what does he care about? Winning...NOW! He has but a couple of years left. His concern is winning as much as possible in the next 2-3 years. Therefore, he has a strong incentive to gear the roster selection and -- to the degree that he's allowed input on the GM selection -- toward this win-now philosophy. This is natural. I'm not condemning Tony for it. Managers should want to win now.

But, the franchise needs a long-term development mindset. This is not necessarily antithetical to Tony's philosophy, but it's certainly not in synch with it either. For example, Tony might want Bryan Anderson traded for a veteran SP or SS to play this year -- or maybe this year and next. Why? Because it would make the team better now. But that is not, IMO, in the long-term interests of the team. Is Tony being an a-hole? NO but his interests are going to be short-term, not long-term.

DeWitt, being a savvy businessman, should recognize this. If he truly is committed to player development, he should leave Tony out of the GM search altogether. Tony's going to want someone who shares his philosophy b/c he doesn't want to spend his last couple of years losing 90 games per. Who would? DeWitt, if he wants Tony back and it appears he does, should recognize that the new GM needs to have a long-term philosophy, not a short-term philosophy, and Tony's interests run counter to that.

by chuckb on Oct 19, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

win now and the team's long-term needs

>>But, the franchise needs a long-term development mindset.<<

Agree completely.

>>This is not necessarily antithetical to Tony's philosophy, but it's certainly not in sync with it either.<<

This part I can't quite snap a salute to. My philosophy for how to run a baseball team not named the Boston Red Sox or New York Yankees (maybe you throw the Cubs and Mets is class 1a behind the big two in payroll) is that the club's lifeblood is long-term player development. This means you give young players their shot at the ML level as they are cheap labor. Occasionally, when the club is peaking, you decide for a short period to throw caution to the wind and "go for it". This is a short burst by necessity and the team goes back to player development mode after shooting its wad (so to speak).

The Cards are overdo to go back into player development mode (which they haven't been in as an organization since the days of Branch Rickey). The Cards in recent memory have built all their teams through the trade game. That method is toast IMHO. LaRussa knows only one way to manage: win now. The Cardinals don't have the pitching to make a run next season. But they have lots of talent on the horizon. Some of it may hit the bigs at the tail end of next season. 2008 is not a "go for it" year IMHO. Thus, forget signing Eckstein. He'll be utterly useless by 2009. We need a GM who will just say NO to the Ecksteins and Pineiro #2s (one is enough and you know Duncan has his nose in the garbage bin right now looking for another Pineiro).

by jjray on Oct 19, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that 2008

is not a "go for it" year. In fact, I'm not sure where the disagreement lies. I guess my point was that long-term player development can still occur while trying to win now -- see the Braves of the last 15 years. Our organization isn't there, however.

I don't think Tony's intent is to ruin our farm system, as I think some feel I've implied. Winning now doesn't have to (necessarily) come at the expense of long-term player development. But, the Cards aren't so fortunate right now. In short, I believe that Tony would think it a good thing if we could win now AND have long-term player development. Some teams can do this. We can't. Therefore, his overriding concern is winning now.

by chuckb on Oct 19, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Due diligence?

I'm not sure whether or not to be concerned. That's part of what I'm asking. Should we be concerned? Is this dragging on? Or is this about due diligence?

What happens if 2 weeks from now a decision is announced...and it's Mozeliak? What then? Status quo? It sure doesn't seem like he's been handcuffed in his role as "interim".

As I'm thinking about this, it seems that these are the possible outcomes:

We hire from within the org - Mozeliak
We hire from outside the org - a team that's already eliminated from the postseason - Hahn, Woodfork, DePodesta, Kim Ng, or whomever.
We hire from outside the org - a team exec currently still in the postseason - likely Antonetti.

And what concerns me is that important moves and decisions are being made by an interim GM. Moves that dramatically effect the outcomes of the 2008 season and makeup of the ballclub.

by airhad on Oct 19, 2007 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

interesting blub on Antonetti at SI

By Tom Verducci
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/10/19/five.cuts/index.html
See #4 (saw this link over at Bernie's pressbox)

He speculates that Antonetti would only take the Cards GM job if he could take much of the authority over scouting / drafting / minor league operations given to Jeff Luhnow.

I'd much rather have that result than a TLR / Mozeliak two-headed, vet laiden monster. If knifing Luhnow is what it takes to get Antonetti ... sorry Jeff. Seriously, Antonetti and Luhnow are both new school stat geeks. I bet they stand a fair chance of co-existing.

But it would be an ironic twist that Walt got fired because he opposed expanded authority for Luhnow; however, in order to hire a top level GM replacement, DeWitt has to give the successor that which Jock demanded.

by jjray on Oct 19, 2007 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

I'd rather have Antonetti in charge than Luhnow, and if he's hired, he should be given complete control over player development.

by nycardfan on Oct 19, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

great link...

any idea how well connected the writer is? i.e. how solid that rumor is?

by airhad on Oct 19, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bernie's take on that rumor

I just read this during my lunch break and thought I'd pass it along since it pertained to this thread.

Bernie (responding to a question about whether Antonetti would have problems with TLR): "It wouldn't be about the manager as much as it would be about Luhnow. But I don't think anyone is the "front runner" because they haven't interviewed Antonetti yet .... so how the hell could he be the front runner if he hasn't interviewed yet? Well, at least Antonetti and his agent know how to get the buzz out... The Rick Hahn interview went well, I am told. But what do I know? I only talk to the owner of the team, and the manager, on an almost daily basis. "

by nycardfan on Oct 19, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bernie

>>But what do I know? I only talk to the owner of the team, and the manager, on an almost daily basis.<<

Poor Bernie has such a fragile ego about who has better sources / credit for story. But I guess all reporters of every stripe do. It's the currency of their trade.

by jjray on Oct 19, 2007 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lunhow's lock on the farm

I wonder how concrete Lunhow's job description is?

I mean, I'm sure the line was clearly drawn as a result of the mess that became of the relations/differences of opinion in the front office. If a player-development focused GM were hired, would it still be only Lunhow's baby?

I would guess DeWitt would not discount someone like Antonetti's strengths. I'm sure his influence in the farm system would be appreciated and not locked out.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 19, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs