Cardinal Fan in Orange County

by nzach54 on Oct 10, 2007 12:04 AM EDT Comment 20 comments

Living in California and being so far removed from St. Louis... what's the consensus out there about who should replace La Russa if he decides to leave?

Am I being naive in thinking that getting Joe Torre back wouldn't be such a bad idea? Would a younger manager be a better fit with the team the way it's currently composed?

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Bernie Miklasz of the Post Dispatch

has hinted that Terry Pendleton is getting strong consideration.

The reality is that TLR appears to want to come back and the Cardinals are speeding up the GM search because of this.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 11:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

good

i hope larussa comes back.the only thing that would worry me about pendelton is in a couple years when the braves job comes open. personally i think he will stay in atl and take over when cox retires. but if larussa does not return the 5 guys i would consider would be. not in any order

1 jim riggleman
2 terry pendelton
3 bob brenely
4 joe torre (i think in the end he ends up staying in ny)
5 joe giardi

HURRY BACK CARP AND MULDER

by LaRussa4President on Oct 10, 2007 5:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I'm being harsh

but I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want Bob Brenly as our manager. He didn't impress me in Arizona(despite the World Series ring, but seriously, he had the two best pitchers in the game that year, the only strategy was "Keep putting Schilling and Johnson out there!" and he didn't screw that up.) and as a Cubs announcer, at times he seems like he has about as much valuable baseball information to impart as, well, some of the better VEB posters.

Maybe part of my dislike is that he is the announcer for the Cubs though, and he's exactly what the Cubs management wanted in an announcer, someone who wouldn't rip the team when they were underachieving and playing bad baseball, like Stone was willing to do.

I'd still like to see TLR back, but if not him, I like the idea of Girardi(which I don't see happening) or Pendleton.

The other intriguing one from Miklasz's post to me was Matheny. Matheny would be a great coach to add to the staff, but he's still too connected to the current players and has no coaching experience yet. I would imagine it'd be hard for Matheny to get in the face of Albert Pujols, considering Pujols was helping him with his swing just like 3 years ago.

by mtalken on Oct 10, 2007 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Better VEB posters > Bob Brenly

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 10, 2007 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I don't get why people throw around Bob Brenly's name. He had success with a team that had two #1 pitchers and a sprinkling of aging all-stars and a sprinkling of bench players. I would think nearly anyone could win with those teams.

And I agree - he doesn't sound very smart during broadcasts.

by spants on Oct 10, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm, frankly, ready

for Tony to move on. I'll be very disappointed if he returns. It's time for the youth movement, such as it will be this year, to begin and I don't think that can occur w/ Tony on the bench.

Don't misunderstand, I believe Tony to be a great manager and think he's done great things for the Cards, but I don't believe that he's the right guy going forward. Sticking w/ Tony will mean that we'll be waiting too long to find out if the youngsters like Ryan, Hoffpauir and others can do it at this level. It will mean too many tried and true mediocre vets that add nothing except gray hairs and $ signs. It's time for us, and him, to move on.

by chuckb on Oct 10, 2007 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree:

I think La Russa has outlived his usefullness and should move on but he is quoted in an article on ESPN as saying he wanted to get a good idea as to who was going to be the new GM before making a decision. This tells me no other clubs are ringing his phone, he still wants to manage and will probably be back. I'd prefer Pendelton or Gairdi, as I think both would be good with young players. If not La Russa though, it'll probably be Oquendo.

by ridgesee on Oct 10, 2007 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

PS:

Torre would not be a fit at all. He is fine to manage a group of allstars in the American League that don't need anything other than to sit on the bench and keep your mouth shut and trudge out to the mound several times a game to change pitchers when it is obvious he is getting shelled and he is getting to old for that. He has no energy, he should get a delay of game penalty every time he makes a trip to the mound. I shouldn't be so hard though because I don't think his health is that good.

by ridgesee on Oct 10, 2007 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Call me crazy-

I think Oquendo is the future of the Cards. Maybe he isn't quite ready to be manager now, but I would go ahead and let him start gaining the experience. We might as well be building him up while we're developing the players.

He's an excellent instructional coach, so I think he's the right man to be teaching the youngsters how to play as major-leaguers during the rebuilding phase.

He gets respect from and gets along with the players we'll be keeping, so I don't think we'll have to worry as much about Pujols wanting out.

And if the organization is serious about Caribbean player procurement, who better to have at the helm than Oquendo?

Yes, I worry about his inexperience and how he'll handle a pitching staff, but if this is a rebuild anyway, why not try it?

by hit and run on Oct 10, 2007 11:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ok, you're crazy

I'm joking. I agree that Jose has great potential as a manager for all the reasons you cite. He did a great job with the Puerto Rico team in the World Baseball Classic as well. Is the time right for the Oquendo era? I don't know, but I wouldn't be opposed to him getting a shot.

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 10, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It seems like people have been proclaiming Oquendo

as the future Cardinals manager for years. And yet they always end that statement by saying "He's not quite ready." or "In a few more seasons."

When is the guy ready? Will he ever be ready? He's not a kid anymore.

Even though I watch a ton of games, I don't have much to base an opinion on, except whether or not he holds a runner at 3rd base or sends him home. I just find it interesting the way his name gets tossed around as this eternal possibility.

The anti-cubs beard lives!

by effin fisk on Oct 10, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree--Tony not a build from within guy

Tony has always reached outside the organization to fill in holes and the bench with older, league average players. He wants to have a history on each player so he knows what he's got. When injuries hit and he's left in the lurch, then, and only then, does he turn to the farm system to plug holes (and often time not even then, he might trot out well below league average vets ala Miguel Cairo). There are exceptions to this tendency but they are rare. It's a formula that has served Tony well over the years with contending teams.

Q. Is it time for us to play the kids in the system? Has management made an organizational decision that it is going that route?

If so, then it needs a manager who is willing to go with the program.

by jjray on Oct 10, 2007 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Time to move on...

If the organization is making a sea change in philosophy towards player development, and it looks like they are, then Tony and Dave have to go. Neither has a track record of developing young talent. Both have a long track record of reclaiming veterans who are in a rut or getting the most out of role and utility players. I'd like to see a move towards youth development. I don't think Pendleton is going anywhere -- he's beloved in Atlanta and has a great organization and farm system to mine talent from. Girardi presents an interesting problem: He's going to command top dollar in salary with only a couple years experience, and he reminds me a lot of past player to manager flameouts like Tony Pena; i.e. they were a flash in the pan with a previously terrible or young ballclub, but couldn't sustain their success over two or three years. It would be an interesting hire. I'd much rather see an established manager who's had great success grooming young talent, like a Buck Showalter or Art Howe.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Oct 10, 2007 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oquendo

I think Oquendo would be outstanding. He coached in the WBC and players liked him very much.

I don't worry about his handling of pitching. I would expect him to find a pitching coach he trusts and learn from him. I think you must realize that Qquendo is working with Larussa & Duncan two of the best coaches in the game. If you don't think he is asking questions on a daily basis you are crazy. I think Jose would be a perfect fit. Maybe TLR stays around 2-3 more years and they promise Jose the position when TLR is done.

I think if the organization really wants to go young they have to prove it by getting rid of all the old guys now.

See organizations/coaches don't play "young" guys unless they have to. Arizona and Colorado are playing young guys because they don't have but 1 or 2 old guys on their roster. When that happens you have no choice.

I have been saying this and Steve Stone backed me up. Managers don't care if a guy is young or old, if the player produces they get playing time. Like Albert, he was young and Tony got him in the line up everyday. So it is fales to say Tony does not play young guys. I think Brendan Ryan got a great deal of playing time as well and he is young. So I really don't find much argument in saying certain managers play/don't play young guys. The young guys have to make the manager play them. A manager is not going to play a guy if he is hitting .200.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 10, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You're missing my point

Albert never would have come up in 2000 had everyone been healthy at the start of the season. He would have started at AAA. Ryan played this year because of significant injuries to Rolen, Eckstein, Miles, and Kennedy. He would have never gotten time otherwise. Same with guys like Ankiel, Schumaker, and Duncan. If Larry Bigby hadn't gotten hurt before the start of 2006 do you honestly think Duncan gets his shot? If Juan and Preston don't have injuries this season does Ankiel get brought up before rosters expand? Even though he was having an astounding season at AAA in terms of power numbers, he doesn't get a shot without significant injuries. Injuries also forced Tony and Dunc to install Wainwright as the closer -- which was instumental to the Cards championship run a year ago.

I'm not saying they don't PLAY young players, I'm simply saying their track record isn't good for developing young talent. Name a pitcher outside of Wainwright that Duncan has shepherded from the minors and become a #1 starter? He's amazing with reclamation projects (Bob Welch, Dave Stewart, Darryl Kile, Chris Carpenter, to name a few) but has never been very good with young pitchers. Tony is much more fond, as was Walt, of dealing young prospects for savvy veterans to round out the roster. The Yankees do this as well, and it has been successful for both clubs, but the Yanks can take bad contracts (Abreu, A-Rod) because they don't care about the money as much as winning. The Cards don't have this option -- they're not spending $200 million on a roster because they can't make $400 million in revenue every year like the Yankees do. Look at the players that have been dealt in some of the deals that brought veterans to St. Louis -- it sure would be nice to have Haren, Calero, Barton, or Polanco right now don't you think?

To your other point, playing young guys because you have to. Arizona and Colorado PUT themselves in this situation by not signing lucrative deals with free-agents, by not trading away younger talent for the last 2 years of a pricey veteran, and by being sellers at the trade deadline for prospects from teams like St. Louis who are looking for a boost to the post-season. Minnesota, Milwaukee, Arizona, Cleveland, and San Diego have all employed this formula to great success. Colorado probably could have moved Helton to the Red Sox for Jacoby Ellsbury during the offseason, but Clint Hurdle thought better of it because Helton is a character guy and a nice veteran to have to help mold a young ballclub. It takes an organizational philosophy to pull off what the Rockies and D-Backs have done, and you need everyone in the organization to be on the same page. It has been discussed here that Mr. DeWitt is looking for a philosophical change towards player development which is why Walt is no longer here. Tony isn't going to be in St. Louis for more than a couple more seasons I don't think. This would not make him a good candidate for the manager's position if that is truly the philosophy that DeWitt is taking.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Oct 10, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't Dave Duncan help Matt Morris

almost win a Cy Young, amass over 100 wins and rebound from 2 major surgeries?

Name a pitcher that came through the system and went somewhere else to become a #1. I can only think of 1 pitcher and that is Dan Haren, someone who Dave and TLR fought over keeping or trading.

The problem we have is that to develop young talent, you have to have young talent.

Do you honestly believe that if the Cardinals promoted Rasmus, Hauf, Walters, Anderson and Mather that Tony wouldn't find a way to play them? That the master of the double switch wouldn't find a way to get them playing time of Adam Kennedy (not a LaRussa fave), a vacancy at SS and an all- LH starting OF?

Anderson would be the only one blocked, and that would be by a young, Gold Glove catcher.

I get your point, though.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 10, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Injuries happen

That's why many young players get a chance. So that's not just a St. Louis thing.

I agree that we don't have the best track record of producing top quality players from our system, but I don't know how much of that you can blame on TLR and Duncan.

I'll give you cases like Reyes and Ankiel, where a highly touted prospect has struggled, or worse in the case of Ankiel and completely lost his pitching ability. However, as HL said, Morris was 3rd in the CY that same year that Brenly and the D'Backs won the World Series, as talked about above. Morris was a 20+ game winner that year, if I recall, as well. Wainwright seems to be coming along well, and those guys seem to develop good setup type relievers at a fairly high rate.

The rest of that situation though is on the organization as a whole. Outside the two previously mentioned and Dan Haren, how many players have the Cardinals brought up through their system that Duncan had even a CHANCE to build into an ace pitcher? How many position players have we seen come up through the system and get top 20 BA ratings?

There haven't been many.

You may be right that TLR isn't the right guy to go forward, but I wouldn't blame all the poor player development on him and Duncan.

Oh yeah, one other thing--I'm not giving you Polanco on the "wish-list." He, pretty much by himself, given how the other players have fizzled out, brought us Scott Rolen. I don't think you would have seen two 100-win seasons, two pennants and a World Series ring with Polanco manning third those years, even though he's obviously the better player now.

The Mulder trade though, makes me feel sad for Jocketty everytime I think of it :(

by mtalken on Oct 10, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

boy, was that a good post, fourstick:

I could add a few comments, but why take a chance on taking away from something that was so well said.

by ridgesee on Oct 10, 2007 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks...

I've been a vocal advocate on other blogs about the Cards' need to blow things up a little bit to give them a chance to be perennial contenders in a couple of years. I am the biggest fan of Tony and think he is one of the best managers ever, but I get the Phil Jackson corollary a lot with him -- he's very good at coming in a molding a veteran ballclub into a championship run, but is not adept at bringing a young, raw ballclub along to the point where they contend. That and he's never had a ballclub that didn't feature at least 2-3 All-Star/HOF type players, i.e. not a more with less guy. That said, he did an amazing job the last two years juggling injuries and handling this ballclub.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Oct 11, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll cast my "vote"

for Jose Oquendo. He's familiar with the current roster, is respected by veterans and "youngsters" alike, works his backside off, and has undoubtedly learned a heckuva lot from TLR.

He does have managerial experience, albeit in winter ball and the WBC. Like any new Cardinal manager, Jose would need a solid pitching coach. (It's my opinion that Dave Duncan may be more difficult to "replace" than La Russa!) If the plan is to make the Cardinals younger, a "teacher" is what you need in the dugout.

The toughest adjustment for Oquendo might be dealing with the media in his second language... but given the (relatively) "friendly" news coverage in St. Louis (as opposed to Noo Yawk, Bahston, or Chicahgo), that's a minor concern.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Oct 11, 2007 10:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs