Cardinal Fan in Orange County
Living in California and being so far removed from St. Louis... what's the consensus out there about who should replace La Russa if he decides to leave?
Am I being naive in thinking that getting Joe Torre back wouldn't be such a bad idea? Would a younger manager be a better fit with the team the way it's currently composed?
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Bernie Miklasz of the Post Dispatch
The reality is that TLR appears to want to come back and the Cardinals are speeding up the GM search because of this.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 11:59 PM EDT reply actions
good
1 jim riggleman
2 terry pendelton
3 bob brenely
4 joe torre (i think in the end he ends up staying in ny)
5 joe giardi
by LaRussa4President on Oct 10, 2007 5:04 AM EDT reply actions
Maybe I'm being harsh
Maybe part of my dislike is that he is the announcer for the Cubs though, and he's exactly what the Cubs management wanted in an announcer, someone who wouldn't rip the team when they were underachieving and playing bad baseball, like Stone was willing to do.
I'd still like to see TLR back, but if not him, I like the idea of Girardi(which I don't see happening) or Pendleton.
The other intriguing one from Miklasz's post to me was Matheny. Matheny would be a great coach to add to the staff, but he's still too connected to the current players and has no coaching experience yet. I would imagine it'd be hard for Matheny to get in the face of Albert Pujols, considering Pujols was helping him with his swing just like 3 years ago.
Yeah
And I agree - he doesn't sound very smart during broadcasts.
I'm, frankly, ready
Don't misunderstand, I believe Tony to be a great manager and think he's done great things for the Cards, but I don't believe that he's the right guy going forward. Sticking w/ Tony will mean that we'll be waiting too long to find out if the youngsters like Ryan, Hoffpauir and others can do it at this level. It will mean too many tried and true mediocre vets that add nothing except gray hairs and $ signs. It's time for us, and him, to move on.
I agree:
PS:
Call me crazy-
He's an excellent instructional coach, so I think he's the right man to be teaching the youngsters how to play as major-leaguers during the rebuilding phase.
He gets respect from and gets along with the players we'll be keeping, so I don't think we'll have to worry as much about Pujols wanting out.
And if the organization is serious about Caribbean player procurement, who better to have at the helm than Oquendo?
Yes, I worry about his inexperience and how he'll handle a pitching staff, but if this is a rebuild anyway, why not try it?
Ok, you're crazy
by cardsgirl95 on Oct 10, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems like people have been proclaiming Oquendo
When is the guy ready? Will he ever be ready? He's not a kid anymore.
Even though I watch a ton of games, I don't have much to base an opinion on, except whether or not he holds a runner at 3rd base or sends him home. I just find it interesting the way his name gets tossed around as this eternal possibility.
Agree--Tony not a build from within guy
Q. Is it time for us to play the kids in the system? Has management made an organizational decision that it is going that route?
If so, then it needs a manager who is willing to go with the program.
Time to move on...
Oquendo
I don't worry about his handling of pitching. I would expect him to find a pitching coach he trusts and learn from him. I think you must realize that Qquendo is working with Larussa & Duncan two of the best coaches in the game. If you don't think he is asking questions on a daily basis you are crazy. I think Jose would be a perfect fit. Maybe TLR stays around 2-3 more years and they promise Jose the position when TLR is done.
I think if the organization really wants to go young they have to prove it by getting rid of all the old guys now.
See organizations/coaches don't play "young" guys unless they have to. Arizona and Colorado are playing young guys because they don't have but 1 or 2 old guys on their roster. When that happens you have no choice.
I have been saying this and Steve Stone backed me up. Managers don't care if a guy is young or old, if the player produces they get playing time. Like Albert, he was young and Tony got him in the line up everyday. So it is fales to say Tony does not play young guys. I think Brendan Ryan got a great deal of playing time as well and he is young. So I really don't find much argument in saying certain managers play/don't play young guys. The young guys have to make the manager play them. A manager is not going to play a guy if he is hitting .200.
You're missing my point
I'm not saying they don't PLAY young players, I'm simply saying their track record isn't good for developing young talent. Name a pitcher outside of Wainwright that Duncan has shepherded from the minors and become a #1 starter? He's amazing with reclamation projects (Bob Welch, Dave Stewart, Darryl Kile, Chris Carpenter, to name a few) but has never been very good with young pitchers. Tony is much more fond, as was Walt, of dealing young prospects for savvy veterans to round out the roster. The Yankees do this as well, and it has been successful for both clubs, but the Yanks can take bad contracts (Abreu, A-Rod) because they don't care about the money as much as winning. The Cards don't have this option -- they're not spending $200 million on a roster because they can't make $400 million in revenue every year like the Yankees do. Look at the players that have been dealt in some of the deals that brought veterans to St. Louis -- it sure would be nice to have Haren, Calero, Barton, or Polanco right now don't you think?
To your other point, playing young guys because you have to. Arizona and Colorado PUT themselves in this situation by not signing lucrative deals with free-agents, by not trading away younger talent for the last 2 years of a pricey veteran, and by being sellers at the trade deadline for prospects from teams like St. Louis who are looking for a boost to the post-season. Minnesota, Milwaukee, Arizona, Cleveland, and San Diego have all employed this formula to great success. Colorado probably could have moved Helton to the Red Sox for Jacoby Ellsbury during the offseason, but Clint Hurdle thought better of it because Helton is a character guy and a nice veteran to have to help mold a young ballclub. It takes an organizational philosophy to pull off what the Rockies and D-Backs have done, and you need everyone in the organization to be on the same page. It has been discussed here that Mr. DeWitt is looking for a philosophical change towards player development which is why Walt is no longer here. Tony isn't going to be in St. Louis for more than a couple more seasons I don't think. This would not make him a good candidate for the manager's position if that is truly the philosophy that DeWitt is taking.
Didn't Dave Duncan help Matt Morris
Name a pitcher that came through the system and went somewhere else to become a #1. I can only think of 1 pitcher and that is Dan Haren, someone who Dave and TLR fought over keeping or trading.
The problem we have is that to develop young talent, you have to have young talent.
Do you honestly believe that if the Cardinals promoted Rasmus, Hauf, Walters, Anderson and Mather that Tony wouldn't find a way to play them? That the master of the double switch wouldn't find a way to get them playing time of Adam Kennedy (not a LaRussa fave), a vacancy at SS and an all- LH starting OF?
Anderson would be the only one blocked, and that would be by a young, Gold Glove catcher.
I get your point, though.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 10, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Injuries happen
I agree that we don't have the best track record of producing top quality players from our system, but I don't know how much of that you can blame on TLR and Duncan.
I'll give you cases like Reyes and Ankiel, where a highly touted prospect has struggled, or worse in the case of Ankiel and completely lost his pitching ability. However, as HL said, Morris was 3rd in the CY that same year that Brenly and the D'Backs won the World Series, as talked about above. Morris was a 20+ game winner that year, if I recall, as well. Wainwright seems to be coming along well, and those guys seem to develop good setup type relievers at a fairly high rate.
The rest of that situation though is on the organization as a whole. Outside the two previously mentioned and Dan Haren, how many players have the Cardinals brought up through their system that Duncan had even a CHANCE to build into an ace pitcher? How many position players have we seen come up through the system and get top 20 BA ratings?
There haven't been many.
You may be right that TLR isn't the right guy to go forward, but I wouldn't blame all the poor player development on him and Duncan.
Oh yeah, one other thing--I'm not giving you Polanco on the "wish-list." He, pretty much by himself, given how the other players have fizzled out, brought us Scott Rolen. I don't think you would have seen two 100-win seasons, two pennants and a World Series ring with Polanco manning third those years, even though he's obviously the better player now.
The Mulder trade though, makes me feel sad for Jocketty everytime I think of it :(
boy, was that a good post, fourstick:
Thanks...
I'll cast my "vote"
He does have managerial experience, albeit in winter ball and the WBC. Like any new Cardinal manager, Jose would need a solid pitching coach. (It's my opinion that Dave Duncan may be more difficult to "replace" than La Russa!) If the plan is to make the Cardinals younger, a "teacher" is what you need in the dugout.
The toughest adjustment for Oquendo might be dealing with the media in his second language... but given the (relatively) "friendly" news coverage in St. Louis (as opposed to Noo Yawk, Bahston, or Chicahgo), that's a minor concern.

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