springing forward
in case you missed the news, st louis will host the 2009 all-star game.
the PECOTA projections have posted at Baseball Prospectus. they're subscriber-only figures, a proprietary product, so i'm not comfortable publishing the entire set of stl projections; that'd essentially be stealing. i see nothing wrong with providing some sneak peeks, however. at an initial glance, PECOTA seems to like the st louis hitters slightly more than ZIPS does while being about the same on the pitchers. carpenter projects to a 3.39 era (30 points higher than ZIPS), but reyes and wainwright are at about the same level that ZIPS has them (the wainwright projection has him as a starter). braden looper, projected mainly as a starter (20 starts, 12 relief appearances, 123 total innings), checks in at a 4.99 era. brad thompson is projected as a relief pitcher and falls in the same range era-wise as he did with ZIPS. as far as the hitters, PECOTA likes adam kennedy considerably better than ZIPS does (.728 ops); duncan has a solid projection (.844 ops), edmonds is in the same range, j-rod shines, and encarnacion plods along at his accustomed level of middleness. we should not expect much from eckstein or molina, PECOTA says.
i'll compile team aggregations for the pitchers and hitters and put up the results thursday, but i wouldn't expect the final wins projection to deviate much from the ZIPS-derived total.
while they're still fresh, i'll use the PECOTAs to conduct another little experiment. you may have seen the recent article at Beyond the Boxscore rating chris duncan as one of the best #2 hitters in baseball during 2006. even if his ops drops into the mid-.800 range this coming season, he'll still be an outstanding #2 hitter. so here's the experiment: since duncan's so good, what happens if you keep the batting order the same, but begin each game with the #2 slot in the order? like this:
| regular lineup |
adjusted lineup |
|---|---|
| 1. eckstein | 1. duncan |
| 2. duncan | 2. pujols |
| 3. pujols | 3. rolen |
| 4. rolen | 4. edmonds |
| 5. edmonds | 5. encarnacion |
| 6. encarnacion | 6. kennedy |
| 7. kennedy | 7. molina |
| 8. molina | 8. pitcher |
| 9. pitcher | 9. eckstein |
same lineup; same sequence of hitters. you simply offset the initiation of the sequence by one slot. i liken this to daylight savings time, wherein the hours proceed in the same sequence but we "spring forward" by one hour, arbitrarily renumbering the slots in order to make more efficient use of the sun. by springing forward in the lineup and renumbering the slots, might we put the heat and light in the batting order to more efficient use?
emphatically, we might. here's the basic tradeoff we're making. we gain offense by moving the better hitters up one slot in the order, because doing so gets them all more plate appearances over the course of the season. a #1 hitter gets slightly more plate appearances than a #2, because there will always be a certain number of games where the #1 makes the last out, and the game ends with the #2 hitter on deck. a slightly smaller number of games will end with the #3 hitter on deck, and so on down the line. so by shuffling the lineup in this way, we're basically taking 15 or 20 plate appearances a year away from david eckstein and giving them to chris duncan. that seems like a sensible thing to do, insofar as duncan projects to have an ops 100 to 150 points higher than david's; kind of a no-brainer, actually. pujols would get nearly as many extra plate appearances a year; that can only help the offense too, no?
now, here's the cost of that benefit: we're diminishing the table-setting capacity in front of albert the 1st time through the order. he's more likely to bat with the bases empty in that at-bat, and of course duncan will always bat with the bases empty 1st time through. for subsequent times through the order, albert has the same two guys batting in front of him (eckstein and duncan) as always, but he will take less impactful at-bats the 1st time throught the order. on the other hand, because duncan and pujols get on base with such regularity, edmonds and rolen should have more impactful at-bats first time through the order, and that mitigates some of the cost.
to get a crude read on this, i plugged the PECOTAs for both lineups into david pinto's lineup toy to see how many extra runs --- if any --- such a lineup change might produce. here are the results:
| regular lineup |
adjusted lineup |
|
|---|---|---|
| runs / game | 4.929 | 5.060 |
| runs / 162 | 798 | 820 |
an extra 22 runs; two wins in the standings. lot cheaper and easier to pick up two marginal wins this way than by paying, say, $42m to jeff suppan or $100m to carlos lee, eh? in truth, the increase would probably come out to more like 15 runs / 1.5 wins, because as we know teams don't use the exact same lineup for 162 straight games; 'specially not la russa-managed teams. and since duncan is basically a platoon player at this point in his career, you wouldn't see this lineup vs lhp. so maybe we're only talking about one extra win in the standings. what the hell; it's a free win. why not take it?
i ran one more test, for this lineup: duncan / edmonds / pujols / rolen / encarnacion / kennedy / molina / pitcher / eckstein. here's that result:
| regular lineup |
adjusted lineup |
adjusted lineup #2 |
|
|---|---|---|---|
| runs / game | 4.929 | 5.060 | 5.018 |
| runs / 162 | 798 | 820 | 813 |
obviously you wouldn't bat duncan and edmonds 1-2 vs a left-handed pitcher, but vs right-handers you might reap some extra runs / wins--- and for free.
la russa got flamed when he started batting the pitcher 8th in the second half of 1998, but he had the right idea. it wasn't a matter of moving mcgwire forward in the lineup; he batted 3d no matter where the pitcher batted. but by putting a position player 9th (most often eli marrero), la russa increased the table-setting capacity that came up in front of mac --- and the offense improved. in 79 games with the pitcher batting 9th in 1998, the cardinals scored 391 runs, or 4.949 per game. with the pitcher batting 8th, they scored 419 runs in 83 games, or 5.048 runs per game. with the pitcher hitting 9th, the team was 39-40; hitting 8th, they went 44-39. that's a small sample size, so it doesn't prove anything; but it at least provides some real-world data that are consistent with the predictions of the theoretical models.
this will never happen in a million years; it's merely a discussion for a january morning. but when you see teams going to such desperate lengths, stretching for that extra marginal win that might put them into the playoffs, you wonder why some darkhorse contender --- say, the 2007 giants, or the cleveland indians --- doesn't try an experimental lineup over a full season and see if they like the results.
of interest elsewhere:
- Beyond the Boxscore has a profile of reliever dennis dove, recently added to stl's 40-man roster
- david pinto thinks the cubs have improved by about 18 games, which if true would put them in the mid-80s --- same ballpark as the cardinals
- Dan Agonistes quantifies managerial preoccupation with the platoon advantage; la russa was the 5th-most-lefty-righty-obsessed manager in baseball last year
- per the Hardball Times, in its inaugural season busch stadium III had a reverse wind effect, as measured in terms of homers per flyball. the rate of hr/fb was about 40 percent higher with the wind blowing in as opposed to blowing out. go figure . . . .
0 recs |
72 comments
Comments
Duncan batting #2
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 9:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
We didn't have Kennedy last year
by sdrone on Jan 16, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tony likes the "damage"
There could be a few days where AK bats #2 but I would expect Duncan to get most of the time there.
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While Molina may not help much with the bat
There's two free marginal wins right there! Hopefully Suppan enjoys his Terydactyl eggs Lorraine washed down by a nice cold glass of Miller Lite while he watches the Birds repeat in 2007! Take that, market!
by plh903 on Jan 16, 2007 9:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
Also, can you really get Pterodactyl eggs up in Milwaukee? Cause I can't find them at ANY of the local specialty food stores here in St. Louis...
by Mr Clean on Jan 16, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 Questions regarding Franklin from yesterday...
- When did he get busted for Roids?
- Do the Mariners play in a hitters park? pitchers park? or is it neutral?
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jan 16, 2007 9:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
M's
However, his last two teams the Reds and Phillies play in extreme hitters parks.
Franklin was one of the first MLB players to test positive back in August 2005. He served a 10 game suspension.
From the AP story
Franklin said he has "no idea" how he tested positive.
"There's got to be a flaw in the system," he said Tuesday before the Mariners played the Tigers at Comerica Park. "I have no clue. I tested in [early] May and again three weeks later. The first was positive, the second was negative."
The pitcher said he first was told of his positive test in May -- and "thought it was a joke" -- then appealed and appeared before two arbitration committees.
"I'm one of the guys who was supportive of strong testing," Franklin said. "I believe I got to the big leagues on God-given talent, and that's how I've stayed here. It's hard to swallow."
"I know deep in my heart that I have never done anything like that."
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
great minds think alike
by cards4life on Jan 16, 2007 9:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Molina then Kennedy
Of course that could mess up the entire Lefty/Righty thing.
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Judging by the title,
Anyway, glad I was wrong on that assumption. Good outside the box thinking -- I may have to tinker with my PS2 lineups.
by Alxfritz on Jan 16, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Leading off...
by redbird2006in on Jan 16, 2007 10:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
ugh, what happened to my post!
Eckstein: 209 ABs, .268 avg
Pujols: 92 ABs, .337 avg
Rolen: 126 ABs, .317 avg
JEnc: 125 ABs, .312
Miles: 135 ABs, .311
Dunc: 41 ABs, .293
Eckstein's number isn't as bad when you consider OBP, but he's still not nearly the best, and with almost no power he's on first or nothing almost every time. Someone like Rolen, who hit 8 home runs leading off...
But what I really find interesting is how much different hitters are leading off compared to "not leading off". Here's the differece in BA points for these guys when leading off (vs non-leadoff ABs)
duncan: -16
eck: -41
enc: +43
miles: +71
pujols: +7
rolen: +29
So... Eckstein batted .268 leading off, but .309 when not leading off. Likewise, Miles batted .311 leading off, but just .241 when not leading off... go figure. Eckstein has the lowest lead-off of these 6 guys, and second-lowest OBP, and of course a unsightly .330 slugging.
Personally, I'd love to expirment with eckstein batting second, and doing a lot more hit-and-run with him there. I know that often takes the bat away from Pujols... but a 1st and 3rd situation with 1 out sounds pretty good to me.
by redbird2006in on Jan 16, 2007 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, I think Eck
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 16, 2007 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What does pecota having eckstein slugging
What's his HPG (heart plus grit) percentage projected at?
by Jonathan23 on Jan 16, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Already had a great leadoff hitter
Glad we are not trading guys like this away anymore.
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crisp
by Robb on Jan 16, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would take Crisp
It would be Crisp over Juan E. Duncan would play RF and Crisp would play LF.
Crisp was hurt last season, but he is an incredible ballplayer. Hard to say why we gave him up, but we did need a SP very badly that year.
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Crisp of Duncan"?
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 16, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crisp OVER duncan
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
incredible?
by DanUpBaby on Jan 16, 2007 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree here
Coco is on the short list of PBTNL'ers that will go on to have productive MLB careers though I believe.
by plh903 on Jan 16, 2007 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean like Terry Evans?
by joker24 on Jan 16, 2007 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope that is sarcasm
2006 was a total anamoly for him. He had not fared well at low A or high A and then in his second year at AA he does well. That does not convince me he was a bad player and we were in desperate need of pitching at the break this year. He was a movable commodity and we traded him for Weaver. If he continues to rake, that's awesome but I just don't see any track record that indicates his sucess. Maybe he's toolsy and he finally put it together...I've been wrong before.
by azruavatar on Jan 17, 2007 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eck batting leadoff
OTOH, his tendency to take a lot of pitches (which doesn't show up in OBP and therefore not in the lineup toy) probably helps wear down the opposing pitcher and gives Duncan/ Pujols a good look at the pitcher's ball movement and pitch selection.
Maybe try the alternate lineups in spring training?
by madridbend on Jan 16, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hmm....
Sadly, I was laughed off the board on which I was writing. I thought it MORE important then, I wonder if someone could find out what would have been then.
I also thought about this again last year, bc of how well duncan was doing, but decided it wasn't as opportune bc you have Eckstein not only setting up the table that first time around, but potentially tiring a pitcher out, and allowing the #2 and 3 hitters to see how the pitches look coming to the plate.
So I am unsure how those factors might affect the numbers above. I LOVE Eckstein as the leadoff guy, although i am still tempted to say i'd like him even more as a #2 (or leadoff with a pitcher 8 and a basestealer 9) with an excellent basestealer ahead of him. Then when it's 1st and 2nd, the guy on 2nd would still have to be considered and duncan would still see a lot more fastballs.
oh well...tony doesn't want the publicity for that again, does he? I assume that's why he let this strategy go. It's a shame, IMHO.
by HoosierCardFan on Jan 16, 2007 11:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ecksteins pitches per AB
Eckstein does not see an amazing number of pitchers per plate appearance.
PPPA in 2006
miles: 3.52
enc: 3.63
wilson: 3.69
gooch: 3.69
eck: 3.75
Puj: 3.78
rolen: 3.9
edmonds: 4.07
dunc: 4.09
So... he sees right about the average number of pitches.
Eckstein does have a lot of 9 and 10 pitch at bats, but it doesn't average out in his favor.
Supposedly Duncan bats #2 because it forces the pitcher to use less curveballs (don't want to walk him)... This is another one of those rumors I always wonder if it holds any truth.
by redbird2006in on Jan 16, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure there is no stat for this...
Moreover, I would wonder how his statistic would change if we just counted his first and say 9th-inning ABs in a game. I have a feeling it might jump considerably. Then again, I may be crazy.
Another thing to remember as well, is that Eckstein is not feared by other pitchers, so they come right at him. Whereas many of the others on your list with higher PPPA are more damage type hitters (or those likely to be up with men on base and especially in scoring position).
But thanks for the stat. I'd like to discuss more.
by HoosierCardFan on Jan 17, 2007 8:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so much rumor
Jimmy Ballgame is near the top every year. He averages 4.06 for his career. More than Albert. Of course, in Albert's case, it's hard to average very high when many of your ABs are simply 4 pitches/take your base.
by RedbirdRay on Jan 17, 2007 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great idea, Larry.
It's amazing that switching a few spots in the order could produce ~ 20 more runs.
by ryanisforever on Jan 16, 2007 12:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aren't some of the gains
Or is there an even better way to make this work, say w/ Eckstein 7th, Molina 8th, and the pitcher 9th? That way Eckstein gets more AB's and Molina and the pitcher get the fewest. Maybe Eckstein's not good enough offensively for that to improve us much. Just thinking. Great work as always LB.
by chuckb on Jan 16, 2007 12:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eck
by DizzyDean17 on Jan 16, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eckstein also has
That said, I like Larry's suggestion. The thing of it is that LaRussa is already familiar with this concept from his days in the AL, where the lineup usually turns over at No. 8. That's probably why he even tried it a few years ago.
by Red in Chicago on Jan 16, 2007 1:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pujols batting 2nd
by mikedallas23 on Jan 16, 2007 1:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
42%???
Duncan's career OBP is .358
One of them should get on about 70% of the time.
I suppose there are times when both of them reach, meaning that they would be more times when both of them are out (the extra 12%) but having both of them on at the same time pays dividends because teams are not likely to walk the bases loaded for Rolen.
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
umm,
by PGeorge on Jan 16, 2007 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
42%
by mikedallas23 on Jan 16, 2007 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Math is hard
Still would be nice to get another outfielder so we could platoon Duncan and Encarncion, in my humble opinion.
Biggest question this spring is if TLR's "go with the kids" philosophy carries over. Do we go with Kinney and TJ in the bullpen, or do we get stuck with Springer, Rincon, and Franklin? Time will tell.
by Keep your hands off on Jan 16, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uhh
I think your math produces the % of time ther're both on base when pujols gets up to the plate (backing out double plays, caught stealings and runners scoring).
I think the calc would go
.351 + (1 -.351).358 or 58.3% of the time. Or in english, the % of the time Eckstein gets on base plus the percent of the time duncan gets on base when eckstein has already made an out. Its essential the sum of the two (71%) as was alluded in the beginning, minus the times they both reach base (.351.358 =12.6%)
ANOTHER WAY would be calculating the times that neither reach base minus one, or 1 minus (1-.351)*(1-.358).
Hopefully this is useful to someone.
by Jonathan23 on Jan 16, 2007 8:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
42% is right
Bases empty, two outs: 41.7%
One on, one out: 45.7%
Two on, no outs: 12.6%
Hitting him second behind Duncan would obviously provide the following:
Bases empty, one out: 64.2%
One on, no outs: 35.8%
The clear trade-off is more AB's over the season in the #2 slot, vs. more higher-leverage opportunities in the #3 position.
You can see from this why you usually put your best all-around hitter 3rd:
- AB's with runners on base go from 35.8% to 58.3%
- you open up the golden opportunity of two on, none out 12.6% of the time
- with two-outs, none on base someone like Albert can create something out of nothing via a solo HR or his high OBP opening up an opportunity for Rolen/Edmonds
by wildman on Jan 16, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's probably worse than that
by SleepyCA on Jan 16, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great point
by wildman on Jan 16, 2007 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The line-up toy???
Anyway, my question is that 820 runs is only 2.5% more than 800. Could having Eckstien's superior running at top of the order, in the first, be worth a 2.5% increase in runs over having Duncan?
Personally I doubt it but it is just a thought.
by BigJawnMize on Jan 16, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
John Mabry
by Born in 82 on Jan 16, 2007 2:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good for Mabs
by Tarheel85 on Jan 16, 2007 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So if Mabry was on 1st
Between them and Ken Reitz, I'm hard-pressed to say which was the slowest Cardinal I've ever seen.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 16, 2007 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
taguchi
by gthedamned on Jan 16, 2007 5:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Gooch Abides
by Titus Pullo on Jan 17, 2007 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That reminds me...
by Alxfritz on Jan 17, 2007 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ted Sizemore
by Red in Chicago on Jan 16, 2007 5:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The slowest
by Elvis on Jan 16, 2007 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His brothers are actually considerably slower
by joker24 on Jan 16, 2007 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw a LOT of
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 16, 2007 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pedro Guerrero
by Big Rev on Jan 16, 2007 6:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This site
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Cardinals
its really neat i thought has all sorts a info
by punchinjudy on Jan 16, 2007 8:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
good stuff
by SleepyCA on Jan 16, 2007 9:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Done.
Let me know if you see any mistakes.
Interestingly, when looking up the full roster info, the "official" MLB site had a 41-man roster...Reid Gorecki was still listed, despite being officially removed around Christmas.
From an article in the Springfield News-Leader:
The St. Louis Cardinals have run out of patience with center fielder Reid Gorecki, whose window of opportunity to reach the big leagues likely slammed shut recently when he was yanked from the team's 40-man roster.Interesting.A defensive gem but an offensive liability, Gorecki proved to be nothing more than a bust in his Double-A Springfield Cardinals tenure the past two seasons.
That tenure included a sophomoric media boycott that Gorecki employed in midseason 2006, raising more questions about why the team's Web site continues to list his name on the 40-man roster. [emphasis mine]
by Mr Clean on Jan 17, 2007 5:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
by liam on Jan 17, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh my
BTW none of the changes seem to have been made- not sure if it is a wikipedia glitch or if someone else deleted them, but the 7 or 8 guys who were "red" yesterday are still "red" today.
by SleepyCA on Jan 17, 2007 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I didn't create new articles for all of the rooks, I simply corrected the 40-man roster, which needed 4 revisions (+Franklin, +Mulder, +JRod, -Gorecki).
by Mr Clean on Jan 17, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pecota and the kids
Also of note, Duncan, JRod, Jay, Eli all project to hit better than Juan.
by DriverZn on Jan 16, 2007 9:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's Jonathan Jay
by chuckb on Jan 16, 2007 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PECOTA is also bullish
by chuckb on Jan 16, 2007 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
John Jay
by ryanisforever on Jan 16, 2007 10:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I've heard J-Rod is a good comparison to him
by joker24 on Jan 16, 2007 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Yes, PECOTA is just a projection system, etc. I'm just saying he could be good enough to be an everyday outfielder in a couple of years.
by mikedallas23 on Jan 17, 2007 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Best news for the Cards all day..
by cardsrul on Jan 16, 2007 11:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aaaaaaarrrrrghhhhh!
by Archaeopteryx on Jan 17, 2007 10:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Three words for you...
and...
Install those two bad boys and the first time you kick off the AdBlock Plus-enabled Firefox browser and witness the serene glory that is the world wide web entirely sans seizure-inducing ads, you'll grin like Yadi after hitting that game-winning homer in NLCS Game 7.
by Mr Clean on Jan 17, 2007 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs



















