the good news: cards sign ryan franklin
Update [2007-1-11 15:52:57 by lboros]: Erik and Mrs. Erik had a healthy baby boy --- Landon James. add'l info at this diary. congrats and blessings to the new parents.[end update]
i checked in with will carroll, who wrote the book (literally) on pitching injuries, to ask him what we can reasonably expect out of mark mulder in 2007. his response:
The mid-season target seems reasonable.
but a lot of guys you have heard of came back from rotator-cuff surgery; that's the good news. the bad news is that only one of them came back to pitch with any degree of effectiveness within 10 months of his surgery: roger clemens, who was operated on in late august 1985 and returned the following april --- less than 8 months after surgery --- to post one of the best seasons in recent memory, 24-4 with a 2.48 era. he won the mvp and cy young awards that year. another pitcher, jimmy key, returned to action in april 1996, just 9 months after having rotator-cuff surgery, and had a decent season: 12-11 with a 4.68 era. the caveat is that he was absolutely awful for the first 2 months of his comeback; through june 5, his record stood at 2-6 with a 7.06 era. from that point --- 11 months post-surgery --- forward, key was very good: 10-5 with a 3.65 era. mulder will reach the 11-month point in his recovery in mid-august.
below is a list of the rotator-cuff recoverees who most resemble mulder --- starting pitchers who'd achieved some degree of success before getting hurt. i won't claim it is a complete list, but i bet it's pretty close. if anybody knows of others (starting pitchers only), add 'em below:
| date of surgery |
age at surgery |
date of return |
length of rehab |
year 1 record |
year 2 record |
|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| scott elarton | 9/99 | 23 | 4/23/00 | 7 mos | 17-7, 4.81 | 4-10, 7.06 |
| casey fossum | 9/03 | 25 | 5/14/04 | 8 mos | 4-15, 6.65 | 8-12, 4.92 |
| aaron sele | 9/02 | 32 | 5/9/03 | 8 mos | 7-11, 5.77 | 9-4, 5.05 |
| joey hamilton | 9/99 | 28 | 8/19/00 | 11 mos | 2-1, 3.55 (6 starts) |
6-10, 5.93 |
| orel hershiser | 5/90 | 31 | 5/29/91 | 12 mos | 7-2, 3.46 | 10-15, 3.67 |
| tony armas jr | 5/03 | 25 | 6/1/04 | 13 mos | 2-4, 4.88 (16 starts) |
7-7, 4.97 |
| el duque | 5/03 | 37 | 7/11/04 | 14 mos | 8-2, 3.30 (15 starts) |
9-9, 5.12 |
| ramon martinez | 6/98 | 30 | 9/2/99 | 15 mos | 2-1, 3.05 (4 starts) |
10-8, 6.13 |
| carlos hernandez | 2/03 | 23 | 8/14/04 | 18 mos | 1-3, 6.43 (9 starts) |
n/a |
| bret saberhagen | 10/95 | 31 | 8/22/97 | 22 mos | 0-1, 6.58 (6 starts) |
15-8, 3.96 |
| justin thompson | 8/99 | 26 | 8/18/05 | 72 mos | 0-0, 21.50 | n/a |
| dave fleming | 10/95 | 25 | n/a | n/a | n/a | n/a |
the players are ranked in order of the time it took them to get back on the mound --- shortest to longest. the top guy on this list, elarton, had a comeback similar to jimmy key's: he returned too soon and performed miserably, with a 7.11 era through his first dozen starts in 2000. the same goes for fossum, who came back after an 8-month layoff and posted an era of 7.64 over his first 18 starts post-surgery, and aaron sele, who put up an era of 7.01 in the 1st dozen or so starts after his premature return. don't overlook joey hamilton as a comp; he was the same age as mulder at the time of his surgery and had a somewhat similar path, pitching extremely well through age 25 and then slowly crumbling under the weight of faulty mechanics and declining peripherals. despite a triumphant 6-start return from surgery in august 2000, he was never the same pitcher after the injury.
continuing down the list from this point, all of the rehabs are at least a full year in duration --- which, if applied to mulder, would mean a september 2007 return. even at this point of the table, not all the stories are pretty. hershiser scuffled for most of his first year back; as late as labor day his era was worse than league average, but he prettied up his final line with a stellar september --- 16 months post-surgery. el duque waited more than a year before he started pitching again, and the patience paid off: he had a great comeback season, the best on this chart. but saberhagen didn't recover effectiveness until nearly 3 full years after his surgery; if it take mulder that long, his contract will be expired before he's a useful player again. ramon martinez, pedro's older brother, was at the peak of his career when the injury hit him; after his 6.13 era in his "comeback" season he stopped playing. justin thompson was a 15-game winner and former all-star whose big-league career was essentially ended by this surgery; in the 3 years following his operation he only took the mound 3 times, all in the minors. dave fleming went 30-15 over his first two-plus seasons but never threw a single pitch after his rotator-cuff operation. carlos hernandez's promising career had just begun; now it may be over.
it's not an encouraging track record, at least where starting pitchers are concerned. (i didn't look closely at the many relievers who've come back from this surgery.) aside from clemens, all the guys who resumed pitching less than 11 months after rotator-cuff surgery pitched abysmally for the first 2 to 4 months, at least, post-surgery; those who took longer to come back have what could generously be described as a spotty record. maybe mulder will be a rare case; maybe he'll come back in july and go 8-4 with a 4.25 era the rest of the way. but the odds are strongly against it, based on the evidence i've been able to find so far. for that matter, the odds are strongly against mulder's ever regaining his former level of ability, or even coming close to it; those few pitchers who played a number of years after the surgery (hershiser, hamilton, el duque) came back greatly diminished, although el duque was able to regain his old form for half a year. only clemens has been able to get back to his former level and stay there --- and he was 22 when he had his surgery.
and was roger clemens.
conclusion: mulder shouldn't be counted on to provide any help in the short term, ie in 2007. if we're lucky, he might start pitching at a league-average level by august --- but it would be imprudent to depend on that. so the rotation remains a big problem. having looked at all these rotator-cuffers, i have to wonder why the cardinals considered mulder a better gamble than john thomson. thomson has shoulder issues too, but he's rehabbing them nonsurgically; he'll be ready to pitch opening day, and he only cost $500,000 guaranteed, plus incentives.
as for the other pitcher the cardinals signed yesterday --- ryan franklin, for a $1 million guarantee --- i actually like that signing quite a bit better than the mulder deal. to my eye, it's 50-50 that franklin outperforms mulder in 2007.
0 recs |
108 comments
Comments
mulder / franklin
But will either Mulder or Franklin outperform what we would have gotten from Thompson / Narveson (for chump change)?
by jjray on Jan 11, 2007 9:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i don't know
this just looks like a large longshot bet to me ---- prob'y a lot of money spent to make the team nominally better, if at all.
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mulder
by jjray on Jan 11, 2007 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Research
by liam on Jan 11, 2007 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Upside for This Deal is Long Term, Not Short
As LBoros has convincingly demonstrated, there's a reasonable chance that he improves the team--substantially, not nominally--in 2008. But in order to obtain that benefit, we likely need to give Mulder the year off.
My point: The job of fashioning an '07 rotation remains incomplete. We need another starter.
by Titus Pullo on Jan 11, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well said...
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well said
"a mulder signing would be worse than no signing at all, imho, because it would make the cards apt to sit back and count on mulder for their midseason rotation boost, instead of aggressively pursuing walk-year pitchers who hit the market as the trade deadline approaches. jake westbrook and mark buehrle are both pending free agents and prime candidates to be moved; see derrick goold's entry at Bird Land today for a long list of other players who might shake free on that basis. if they have mulder in their hip pocket, the cards won't feel the same urgency to bring in reinforcements. but mulder, whenever he returns, is just as likely to undermine the rotation as stabilize it. . . . "
sorry to keep repeating myself.
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It needs to be repeated, Larry.
I am cautiously optimistic about this signing. It will all depend on the medical staff's rehab philosophy.
The Franklin signing is great and good...but Goold seems to think that they will still go with a "bullpen start" for the 5th spot "until Mulder is ready." And this scares me.
I wonder if Weaver will be pursued at all by the Cards anymore. My guess would be no. But Jocketty better not stop shopping around.
Man I hope they are going to stay conservative on this one.
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rehab philosophy
by blove121 on Jan 11, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at least...
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Morris
by wannabeGedman on Jan 11, 2007 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty obvious
The problem that may arise, in my medical opinion, is that Mulder will likely "feel great" before his shoulder is completely sound. And a mistake could be made, AKA him taking the mound before August.
I say this because if you remember, Mulder denied feeling any shoulder discomfort while pitching last year, despite having a torn tendon. Usually with impingement and rotator cuff damage, there is significant pain with overhead movements, and especially with the "late cocking" stage of throwing.
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 9:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
silent bob, thanks
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I looked before,
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks a lot for all the injury info..
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But,
Didn't he have labrum issues? Is that the "torn tendon" you're talking about? Now, I don't know for sure, but doesn't a labrun tear itself not cause any pain? I've played with guys who had torn labrums and didn't realize it for awhile, until they started unconsciously compensating for it, which caused a different injury, which led the doctors to find the labrum tear.
Again, I have no actual idea, this is pure speculation. But I'm still in favor of the Mulder signing.
by Jhusk on Jan 11, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO TORN LABRUM
by silent_bob on Jan 12, 2007 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A Competitor
Here's hoping Carp and the entire organization have learned the lesson from that and will make sure Mulder rehabs carefully.
"Make speed without haste."
by liam on Jan 11, 2007 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
John Thompson
All we are asking him to do this year is be a #4 starter. If we can find our way into the post season and he is doing well, he can take Wainrights rotation spot and we can have a lights out bullpen again.
by Born in 82 on Jan 11, 2007 9:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
but thomson will have to pitch
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True...
Could we get an updated roster matrix to confirm that?
by Born in 82 on Jan 11, 2007 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll tell you
Todd Stottlemyre.
When he went to the D'backs after his stint with the Cards, he had "shoulder issues" that he "repaired nonsurgically" with weights, thera-band, etc. The only problem was, after that, he sucked, and he ended up having to have surgery anyway.
by Jhusk on Jan 11, 2007 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its risky,
but I'm also encouraged by his low pain levels and ability to pitch while the tendon was obviously torn. Mulder is also relatively young, and he, from all indications, is a superb athlete. I've found that young, naturally great athletes tend to have a more favorable outcome from these types of surgery.
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 9:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Franklin/Thompson/Looper
by TurdFerguson on Jan 11, 2007 10:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good theory
by john vb on Jan 11, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt they have better information
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i concur
by jose smokeindo on Jan 11, 2007 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why Franklin?
-a consistantly below-average K/9 rate
-a walk rate that has increased every year for 5 years running
-a consistantly high HR/9 rate
-historical flyball tendancies
I would rather give the youngsters a shot.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by Lawless on Jan 11, 2007 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then again
by Lawless on Jan 11, 2007 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you...
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps
by Birds on the Matt on Jan 11, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I guess...
Plus I feel like...
Narveson
Tankersley
Hawksworth
Thompson
Looper
could all be as good as Franklin. I suppose in baseball dollars $1MM isn't that much.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitch to contact...
Sorry I'm such a negative Nancy.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, quite Frankly... (I made a pun!)
the bullpen than as a starter. We'll certainly
see Franklin compete for the #5 slot in the
rotation... as he should. But I'm already seeing
everyone freak out that Fanklin is going to steal
time from Reyes/Nav'/Wainer; this isn't necessarily
going to be the case. Depending on how spring
training goes, I think we're going to see our
young guys have a legitimate shot at the rotation.
Franklin is basically an insurance policy. If we
don't use him as a starter, he'll work out of the
bullpen... and will likely perform better there.
For $1Mil, I've seen worse uses of a BP spot.
I guess what I want everyone to hear is that just
because Franklin has a history of starts does not
automatically mean our young guys are going to
lose opportunity to make starts.
-ShawnD
by lostraven on Jan 11, 2007 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
do we have room in the bullpen?
Hancock
Thompson
Looper
Johnson
Rincon
Flores
Isringhausen
Springer...
I suppose its a good problem to have.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Simply amazing...
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
how?
by Birds on the Matt on Jan 11, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$13million
$13MM is more than the ammount we were short on trading for Vazquez and signing Burnett last offseason. This organization's pockets are deep, but they aren't bottomless. $13MM will make a difference.
And if we're talking marquis... $6.5MM annually is only $500k short of what Marquis' new contract is worth. He is, if nothing else, healthy.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
They passed on Burnett because it was $55 million over 5 years. That's not even close to 2 years, $13 million.
The Cards had $16 million "left over". Maybe they shouldn't have spent it on Mulder (if that's your opinion that's cool), but to say they can't afford that is silly in my opinion.
by themang on Jan 11, 2007 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett, etc.
I understand that in todays market $13MM is relatively small, but it isn't worthless. Think of it this way... we're paying 30% more from 1.5 questionable seasons from Mulder than we are for 3 full seasons of a now healthy Adam Kennedey.
I'm just saying I see your point, but I'm never going to say that $13MM doesn't matter.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except
With that said, this market makes me sick. All of my kids will be lefthanded.
by Alxfritz on Jan 11, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fair points...
I suppose I was just hoping that in a world where Barry Zito cleans up because of his money-in-the-bank consistancy, the oposite would be true as well... that is to say that because Mulder is such a question mark the discount would be pretty severe. I suppose, though, that in this market, a $6.5MM middle of the rotation starter is a discount. I just think we should've gotten a better deal for taking such a risk.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the odds are against
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
(wow. lot of numbers in that paragraph. kind of confusing.)
Although, when a "could be worse" is the reaction to what is probably the second biggest signing of the off-season (with Carps ext being a cautious "WooHoo" being #1, and Jimmy's sentimental 2 year deal #3), that's not the greatest off-season in recent memory.
On the otherhand, my SI commerative '06 World Series book came yesterday.
by Alxfritz on Jan 11, 2007 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone hear
Scraping for some optimism, here...
by Red in Chicago on Jan 11, 2007 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by Edmonds is baseball on Jan 11, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
OK...
Like I've said before, at least Narveson and the kids are inocent until proven guilty.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats not what I am saying
And as for the overloaded bullpen, that is a great thing. Now whoever doesn't do their job can be shipped out and traded for some new blood. I see a deal around the deadline that moves some of the overloaded bullpen for a bat that helps us down the stretch.
by Edmonds is baseball on Jan 11, 2007 11:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
are we not saying the same thing?
I would rather have not speant the money on Franklin.
Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's 1% of the payroll
by plh903 on Jan 12, 2007 12:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i rather like the thought...
by jose smokeindo on Jan 11, 2007 11:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Does Franklin bring his steroids with him
:D
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 11, 2007 11:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I am looking forward to Mulder in 08 and 09
Also, Bernie has some TLR insight today about the rotation.
It sounds like they view the 5th spot largely as a competition between Franklin and Looper with Thompson really only having an outside shot. It also sounds like Hawksworth is the dark horse.
by OCCardsFan on Jan 11, 2007 11:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hawksworth intrigues me
And Looper is honestly weird enough that I think they might smell a Bottenfield situation. I don't believe it's going to happen, but I don't think they would have carried the joke this far unless they're sure they've got something.
by DanUpBaby on Jan 11, 2007 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
according to bernie
ideally, i'd like to see them give hawksworth at least another 1/2 season in the minors; he is, after all, only about 12 starts removed from class A. but, you know, another month at double A, a couple months in memphis; then see where they are in the standings and call him up if they need him.
until that point, franklin's a cheap insurance policy.
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good column...
As for Franklin, I think he looks pretty done. I just see this as $1M throw away.
by Zubin on Jan 11, 2007 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Have the Cardinals had a press conference
by Hardcore Legend on Jan 11, 2007 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I remember one with Kennedy and Wells...
by gforce on Jan 11, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy Uni #
Aaron Miles wore #6 with the Rockies, but that number's claimed in this organization.
by liam on Jan 11, 2007 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Medical literature
See this article for information about partial labral tears.
The sample sizes on all these medical studies are small, but they have looked at baseball players and throwing injuries quite a bit.
Sports med types may want to take a crack at the Medline search engine.
by Red in Chicago on Jan 11, 2007 11:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
different injury
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know
http://www.slate.com/id/2100895
the relevant quote:
"Position players have labrums too. Angels third baseman Troy Glaus may miss the rest of the year with his "frayed" labrum (there's no difference between a fray and a tear)."
That quote doesn't make me feel better about Mulder if he does indeed have a "frayed" labrum.
by JMedwick on Jan 11, 2007 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Correct - but...
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Either way
by JMedwick on Jan 11, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mulder did not have a labrum tear
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Moby Dick and Mark Mulder
We all know that Jocketty is very successfull (award winning GM even) at finding great bargains for the Cardinals (which this could be an EXTREME bargain). Look at his success with Williams, Carpenter, Suppan, Edmonds, Rolen, Walker etc. You really can't argue with his success, because in many times he has been able to look beyond the numbers to find so much more. You can only worry about his frame of mind.
I find the anaylis completed by lboros very interesting, but it's not like predicting what someone with a specific K/9 +GB/FB+ BB/K rate will do in the future. It is so much tougher. His study did a lot to throw the red flag out there (and rightly so), but the hardest things to predict with historical statistics is injury and breakouts. There are medical breakthroughs all of the time (which would mean comparing Mulder's surgery to a surgery completed in the 80's/90's problematic) and all bodies respond differently.
Let's just hope that this is the award winning GM Jocketty making this deal and not the Captain Ahab emotional one. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt (Jocketty has always been a good gambler), but that is what I'll be worried about.
by MRCARD on Jan 11, 2007 12:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ryan "Don't look at my Dips" Franklin
I don't really see the upside in this guy. He'll probably outperform replacement, and it lets us keep thompson/looper in the bullpen.
by Jonathan23 on Jan 11, 2007 12:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
2003
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Upside of Ryan Franklin:
Year.....Groundball/Flyball
2001.....0.62
2002.....0.82
2003.....0.76
2004.....0.78
2005.....0.95
2006.....1.43
That last year kind of jumps out at you doesn't it? Looks like a perfect pitcher for our defense...
by MRCARD on Jan 11, 2007 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Groundball percentage
2006 looks not like a trend, but like an aberration.
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GB rate...
by MRCARD on Jan 11, 2007 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Data...
by MRCARD on Jan 11, 2007 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bop
Food for thought: Franklin's flyballs left the park at an astronomical rate compared to the rest of his career. Can he survive if he reverts to his old gb/fb ratios?
by Jonathan23 on Jan 11, 2007 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice call...
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His HR%...
by MRCARD on Jan 11, 2007 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose its possible...
by ilillillli on Jan 11, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
I'm not saying that he's going to be dominant or even league average, but he should be well above replacement level if he has found a new skill. A 4.6-4.9 ERA in half a season as a starter, or a 4.00 ERA out of the bullpen would be worth 1 mil IMO. It's not great, but it would put us well above average for 5th starters. At the very least it's good to have somebody else on the roster above replacement level.
by MRCARD on Jan 11, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
some facts about ryan franklin
some of you should look at his career stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/frankry01.shtml
his career ERA+ is 100 ---- dead-on average. suppan's ERA+ is 101; weaver's is 96 (ie, just below average).
do i think ryan franklin is a good pitcher? no. but i don't think he's worthless either. as a 5th starter, he'd be just fine --- an era of 4.50 to 5.00. i don't think he's that much worse than either suppan or weaver, who many people believe are worth $10m per season.
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re
He pitched against DH's, but he also pitched in the AL West and in SafeCo field (which averaged 94(ish) in terms of hitter friendliness over his span there.
OPS+ takes all those factors out, but consider he's logged 17% of his career innings as a reliver. Never as a good one mind you, but factor that out and his OPS+ would be lower than the century mark.
I don't care for the guy at all, but its still a better signing than Mulder. Just saying this seems more like a Ponson signing than a Thomson signing.
by Jonathan23 on Jan 11, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sure, it's a ponson signing
mark mulder is capable of completing that mission too. but i think the cardinals are counting on him for a much larger mission.
as for his career averages, look at it this way: franklin has met or exceeded league avg status in all but 2 of his big-league seasons. in his worst year, he was 85 pct of league average. compare that to weaver --- below league-avg in 4 of 8 seasons, and just 76 pct of league avg or below (ie, replacement level) in 2 of the last 4 years.
does that mean franklin's a better pitcher than weaver? no. does it mean he's a better buy at $1m than weaver at $10m? yes.
franklin's easy to take cheap shots at, but he's not a completely useless player.
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Budget, etc.
by Fitz on Jan 11, 2007 12:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It looks like it...
by Alxfritz on Jan 11, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see the point...
by Zubin on Jan 11, 2007 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
all things considered..
by wwbd on Jan 11, 2007 12:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we really know
All this sounds really scary. Perhaps we need a bit of clarification before assuming the worst has happened.
As I said before, according to the medical literature "full thickness" rotator cuff tears are basically career-enders. This is a very current study. I seriously doubt a surgeon would cut through the remaining tissue to create what's essentially a thousand-to-one chance of recovery.
Something is missing from our information set. The conclusions may be exactly as Larry has laid out, but we really don't know where Mulder is, IMHO.
by Red in Chicago on Jan 11, 2007 1:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Info from today
by silent_bob on Jan 11, 2007 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How much is our 5th starter going to cost us?
by lefty fan on Jan 11, 2007 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
not really
by tdawg on Jan 11, 2007 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right Tdawg
by lefty fan on Jan 11, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dirt Cheap
Larry, my man, you're very likely right that Mulder will be no great shakes if he pitches at all in 2007, but I don't think anyone--including the Cards brass--is really inclined to believe that he will be.
The question is: who cares? In 2008 he should be healthy as a horse, and the part of the deal I really love is the club option (likely at substantially reduced rates vis a vis this offseason's free agent starting pitchign market) for 2009.
Most importantly, the 2007 money isn't my money, and I'm sure Jock and the gang are considering it a down payment of sorts on Mulder's 30-35 years. It's what we had to pay to get 2008 for very, very cheap, considering that before last year's injury-induced debacle his career ERA was just around 4.00 despite throwingthe vast majority of his career innings in the hitter-friendly AL.
Also, question: didn't Carpenter have major shoulder surgery/issues? As I recall, it wasn't rotator cuff but labrum, and labrum problems, as I understand it, are even more career-threatening than rotator cuff problems. So that's some good news. Carp turned out OK, even with STL's apparently unimpressive medical staff overseeing his rehab.
Finally, the list of rotator cuff comps is all well and good; it's solid research and it's nice due diligence that I hope and assume the Cards did themselves before inking this deal. However, it's also important to note that the majority of these guys were not "name" pitchers who had established themselves as upper-tier major league pitchers at the time they had their injuries.
As a young pitcher, it's hard enough to establish oneself as a dependable, quality major league starter even with a healthy shoulder. Armas, Elarton, Fossum? These guys were projected for big things, sure, but they'd never really achieved them. Lots of young pitchers, arm problems or no, fail to live up to the hype.
Even for the older pitchers, the extenuating circumstances--whether relating to attitude, talent, work ethic, contract incentives or team fit--can't be overlooked. Some pitchers just have bad years, for a number of reasons.
All in all, especially since Mulder seems to rate near the top of available pitchers w/r/t all of these extenuating circumstances (work ethic, talent, contract incentives, team fit, etc...), this seems to me to be a great gamble.
And Ryan Franklin sucks really, really badly. I think he's likely to suck in '07 too, no matter how Mulder does in comparison to him. He's always a terrible bet...
by MKDCardinal on Jan 11, 2007 2:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
ramon martinez, orel hershiser, bret saberhagen,
you don't think these guys had established themselves as upper-tier pitchers?
even the guys at the bottom of the list, who you've never heard of, were very good pitchers with all-star appearances and 15- to 17-win seasons under their belts.
do you think mulder's got some comeback ability that all these guys didn't have?
by lboros on Jan 11, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Factor in the skyrocketing cost
by TurdFerguson on Jan 11, 2007 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
With the exception of Key, whose quick return to form after surgery hurts rather than helps your argument, yeah, I would to some extent dispute that Sele or Hamilton were that good, or at least on a par with Mulder.
Sele had one good year--in 2001--and the rest of the years leading up to his surgery were pretty pedestrian, high Win totals on a good Seattle team (at that time) notwithstanding. Mulder had four years like Sele's one good year, and he had them over the course of fewer seasons.
Hamilton was better than I remember him being, but he was still nothing like Mulder in his Big Three heyday. Similar story to Sele, but in reverse chronological order. Hamilton had his best year right out of the gate at Age 24 in (pre-steroid-era) 1995, and his numbers steadily declined from there. WHIPs (even playing in SD, which I belive was pretty pitching-friendly, even then, pre-Petco) leading up to surgery, i.e. pre-injury, were 1.37, 1.39...1.50. Not an encouraging trend.
Saberhagen was a walking arm problem from nearly the moment he entered the bigs. Hershiser was an established upper-tier pitcher, but, like Key, his success upon return hurts, not helps, you argument. Ramon Martinez was a very good pitcher for a while, but I don't have time at the moment to look at his stats to see whether his abrupt decline was the result of his shoulder troubles, although that does seem to make sense. You're likely right on that one.
I'm not saying that the surgery isn't serious, or that I don't appreciate your analysis.
But yes, I am saying that I think Mulder has a much better chance, because he was better and more established pre-injury, because he's a solid guy in and supportive good situation, and because shoulder surgery becomes more successful with each year that passes, than all but 2-3 of the guys you listed.
by MKDCardinal on Jan 11, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like
If you think the guy returns to form, he's a bargain at that price.
by Red in Chicago on Jan 11, 2007 2:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
something you all are forgetting about mulder
on another note, my pujols picture fell nocking the matyt morris Mcfarlane off and making his hat look like a beanie...ill try and take a photo of it.
by punchinjudy on Jan 11, 2007 3:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations to Erik!
by MdRedbirdFreak on Jan 11, 2007 4:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Congrats Erik!
by orlando card on Jan 11, 2007 5:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Landon James
by Pokey Joe on Jan 11, 2007 7:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Roster Matrix
If you don't have any pressing issues to hash out tomorrow, consider updating the roster matrix and getting a discussion going. I know a majority of the spending has been done, but exactly how much is left could determine that lowball Weaver offer, or which Wilson the ends up riding the pine for the cards in '07.
by Jonathan23 on Jan 11, 2007 9:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
lboros, i'm gonna have to disagree
gets healthy and produces or the cards eat the base salary and exercise the buyout. on the flip side, if mulder succeeds, they also protected themselves with the option if it is working because then the cards get him for that next year for what he's worth in the market. i'm with bernie on this one. fair deal for both sides, and i would rather see mulder succeed in st. louis than for someone else. i applaud walt for having the courage to double down on his bet and just put his faith in a player. it's nice to see that type of loyalty by both team and player in sports today.
also, by "outperform" do you mean put up better numbers overall or put up proportional numbers for less cost?
by stlspecialsauce on Jan 12, 2007 1:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Duncan
I hope this kid continues to produce at even something close to that level.
by OCCardsFan on Jan 12, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs



















