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Game 151 Open Thread: September 21, 2006


carpenter           pettitte
15-6, 2.79            13-13, 4.37

hey, it's the 1st day of autumn. i love autumn -- but summer's always too short. . . . .

a few days ago my compadre jim mclennan, who writes for SB Nation brother site AZ Snake Pit, invited me to do a joint post about the two major contenders for the nl cy young award --- az's webb vs stl's carpenter. since both guys are pitching tonight (webb faces the padres and woody williams), we decided to run the posts this afternoon. so here we go: jim's post first, then mine.

jim's brief for brandon webb
Chris Carpenter is a good starting pitcher: no question there, any team would love to have him. But the NL's best? No. Even putting home-team bias aside, I believe Webb is the superior arm: Carpenter's statistics are skewed by a combination of factors, including his home ballpark and woeful quality of opposition.

Yes, Carpenter's ERA is marginally better. But he has pitched fewer innings, and as Webb gets an extra start down the stretch, that gap will likely widen. This must be taken into account (otherwise, this year's winner is Matt Smith of the Phillies: 6.1 IP, 0 ER). On a per-start basis, Webb has lasted longer, going deeper into games than Carpenter; with each man having 30 outings, he has more complete games and quality starts than Carpenter. We should also note that in defense-independent ERA, Webb is ahead, 3.29 to 3.40. Simply put, he's been less "lucky" than Carpenter, as far as what happens when hitters put balls in play: give them the same players behind them, and Webb is superior.

Another huge difference is the parks in which they pitch half their games. In 2006, Chase Field has been insanely hitter-friendly. It has the 3rd-highest park factor in baseball; Busch Stadium, in contrast, ranks 24th. And Carpenter is truly a "Busch baby". Away from home, he struggles: ERA *triples*, from 1.46 to 4.52, with no complete games, and only 5 quality starts out of 14 on the road. In contrast, Webb's road ERA is a very respectable 3.35, more than a run better.

Then there's the quality of the opponents each has faced. The NL Central is the worst division in baseball this year: only St. Louis is above .500, and overall, the division is 64 games below. Going 5-1 with a 1.77 ERA in eight games against the Cubs and Pirates - the worst teams in the league - pads Carpenter's statistics significantly, and proves very little. Amazingly, only *two* of his thirty starts have been against teams with a record currently better than .500*, and he got whacked around for eleven earned runs in twelve innings by them. In contrast, Thursday's start will be the twelfth time Webb has pitched against .500-plus opposition this year.

Despite this, Webb still has more wins than Carpenter: yes, a meaningless statistic, but pitching is all about keeping the opposition down, and giving your team the opportunity to win. No pitcher has been better than Brandon Webb at that this year, and combined with the factors discussed above, that's why he's the most worthy winner of the 2006 National League Cy Young award. Webb was already the victim of one robbery, when the 2004 Rookie of the Year went to Dontrelle Willis; hopefully, this year he'll get his just rewards and be acknowledged as the best, rather than someone who's, at best, average on the road, and hasn't proved his mettle against decent teams.

larry's brief for chris carpenter
there remain only two serious candidates for the nl cy young award: carpenter and webb. it's a pretty close call, and either one would make a deserving honoree. but if the award is supposed to honor the league's "best" pitcher then carpenter should get it, for this reason: he's demonstrably the nl's "best" by a broad range of yardsticks. here are the categories in which carpenter and webb rank 1st among all nl pitchers:

carpenter webb
ERA
WHIP
Shutouts
Opp On-base Pct
Opp Slugging Pct
Opp OPS
Pitching Win Shares
Pitching VORP
SNLVAR
Average Game Score
Pitching Runs Created
Component ERA
Expected Wins
Win Probability Added
Wins
Complete Games
Shutouts
Fielding Indep. Pitching

that's 13.5 bests for carpenter, 3.5 for webb (they're tied for the lead in shutouts). note how disparate are the measurements by which carpenter outdoes all comers. doesn't matter whether you judge via raw stats (era, whip, shutouts, opp OPS, etc etc), advanced sabermetrics (VORP, win shares, SNLVAR), or gadgety tools (avg game score, pitching runs created) --- carpenter keeps coming out at the top of the heap. last season, when he won the cy in a much tougher field, carpenter didn't lead the league in anything -- he simply excelled across the board, ranking near the top in all the important categories. he has improved upon that broad-based superiority this season, hogging the lead on so many lists that there aren't many left for his competitors to fight over.

moreover, in nearly every category where neither webb nor carpenter leads the league, carpenter ranks ahead of webb. in strikeouts, carpenter's 7th in the league (173), webb 13th (163); in k/bb ratio, carp ranks 2d (4.22), webb 7th (3.47); in opponents' batting average, carpenter is 4th (.226), webb 11th (.248).

admittedly, carp and webb are close enough in a lot of these categories that the balance could shift over the last two or three starts. webb has a very real chance of catching or overtaking carpenter in perhaps half a dozen categories; if he does, his case for the award will improve substantially. but by the same token, carpenter might well flag down webb in all three of the categories in which webb holds an outright advantage (wins, cg, and FIP), which would seem to erase any doubt.

if carpenter's candidacy has a weakness, it's the home-road split jim alluded to. but once you start parsing data, all sorts of interpretations become possible. the split that jumps out at me is not the home-road but rather the month-by-month:

carp month webb
1.80 apr 2.22
3.96 may 1.80
3.27 jun 5.08
3.12 jul 2.45
3.08 aug 5.01
1.78 sep 2.13

whereas carpenter has been consistently good, webb has been periodically shaky -- and his cold spells have hurt his team. in june the dbacks lost all 5 of webb's starts as they tumbled from first to last in the nl west. in august, when webb again faltered, the dbacks fell from 1 game back in both the divisional and wild-card races to complete noncontention. webb pitched his worst games when his team needed him most.

carpenter has done just the opposite, singlehandedly holding the disintegrating cardinal rotation together -- the very definition of an ace pitcher. nothing speaks to that quality more than carpenter's mlb-leading total in (pitchers only) win expectancy added: he has contributed to team wins more profusely than any pitcher in baseball. for that alone, he merits strong consideration for the award; the rest of carpenter's bests merely confirm his place at the head of the class.

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Great breakdown lboros...
..I was reading through his half of the post and began to say "Wait, this isnt' right..you have to look at this, or look at that" and then you covered everything I would have retorted...TENFOLD.

Nice job!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 6:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I often experience that here
Where just about anything I could add has already been said by others...and often much better than I could have said it myself. Hell, LB even made me redundant in the last thread when I responded to the guy's question about the meaning of "Son Todos", by answering it a whole seven seconds before I did...

Thanks a lot Larry...  

And great post by the way...  :-D

"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 21, 2006 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

me too
in fact, I have almost completely stopped posting on my blog; anything I can come up with is pretty much covered and better-said here, and then some.

Anyway, nice post, LB - I like Carp's chances more than ever.

by lawman3842 on Sep 21, 2006 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice job lboros
Like the others have said, I think you presented a much better argument than your counterpart. You hit 'em with all kinds of stats, while AZ's argument for Webb seems to only focus on a couple of Carp's "weak" spots. Besides, his argument that he's only faced two winning teams (PHI and DET) isn't even correct: it leaves out Carp's complete game, 2-hit shutout over the Dodgers

by stlnd on Sep 21, 2006 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know
I thought the other guy had a real solid argument for webb.  

by PGeorge on Sep 21, 2006 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Webb
I agree. Lboros's argument was better, but this was good example of how a pair of good arguments can easily lead you to two different conclusions.

by levistahl on Sep 21, 2006 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carp
I love autumn. Let's hear it for cool breezes and brisk nights. Of course, it's nice not to be mowing in 95 degree heat, too.

Carp has to be the winner. I don't know the stats, but I'd be very surprised if Webb had eight no decisions where he gave up one run or less. And I think your point about what kind of a staff ace Carp has been (a true stopper) is very valid, Larry. Love the work. Thanks.

by Pokey Joe on Sep 21, 2006 6:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Shouldn't a franchise pitcher
Be expected to pitch better at home?? I mean, the disparity is a little shocking, but I would hope that guys would pitch better at home. Just me, I guess.

by fuegophil on Sep 21, 2006 6:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's easy to see....
Give it to Carp!
Let's Go Yadi

by SHUCardinal on Sep 21, 2006 6:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice breakdown, man
Good job, lboros.  Jim also made some great points for Webb, but I wanted to add one thing.  When Webb faces these "weaker" opponents, he gets lit up.  The Rockies owned him on a few occasions, and I think he got hit hard by Pittsburgh.  The main argument I think that most people overlook is pitching lights-out when the team needed them most.  Thanks for pointing this out and good job again, lboros.  Nice job.

One thing that was nice, though, was some capitalization.

Invisible Gophers---2006 Tempe, AZ Slow Pitch Softball Champs!!!

by BigdJC on Sep 21, 2006 6:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

sorry
not directly game related, but I was looking on Amazon for a new PS2 controller today and I came across this:

I couldn't help but laugh at how ugly it was.

They actually have one for almost every team though.  I think some of the other ones actually manage to look worse (like Detroit's).

by dontEATnachos on Sep 21, 2006 7:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ugly?
Are ya daft man? It's beautiful!
"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 21, 2006 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe I was just in a bad mood
Because the first one I came across was for the Mets.

by dontEATnachos on Sep 21, 2006 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That'd do it
You think anyone has tried the Cubs one? Surely it would bring bad luck...
"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 21, 2006 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

After reading the argument for Webb...
I like Carp's chances a lot more. Padding his stats with the Cubs and Bucs? In 13 innings Webb posted a 4.85 era and a 1.46 whip against those guys...

by guayzimi on Sep 21, 2006 7:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

lineups for tonight...
STL:
Wilson, RF
Spezio, LF
Pujols, 1B
Encarnacion, CF
Rolen, 3B
Belliard, 2B
Molina, C
Miles, SS
Carpenter, P

HOU:
Biggio, 2B
Lamb, 3B
Berkman, 1B
Scott, LF
Huff, RF
Burke, CF
Everett, SS
Ausmus, C
Pettite, P

by lawman3842 on Sep 21, 2006 7:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Me likey this line up
lets go Birds!!!!!

I'm betting that the announcers will say Crawford Boxes this many times:

Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes Crawford Boxes

And by the end of the night I will want to die.

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not of fan
of Preston Wilson in the leadoff spot

by tdawg on Sep 21, 2006 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We have struggled mightily against Pettite
this year.  Except (if my memory serves me correctly) I think we started to get to him last game.  Anyway, he's a lefty and that doesn't bode well for the Birds.
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 7:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

First time
poster here, but I have read over these threads before. Time to bring the magic number down to 4!

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 7:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

um
this would bring us down to 3

by dontEATnachos on Sep 21, 2006 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no
I'm an idiot ... for some reason I thought astros had pulled in front of cinci

by dontEATnachos on Sep 21, 2006 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Happy birthday Speezer
#34
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 8:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

For all intents and purposes
It is only a matter of when we clinch rather than if we clinch!
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 8:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looking good, Carp...
Let's get that man some runs!
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 8:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

man...
... carp sure looks funny when he's running the bases.

great AB, tho.

by kindred on Sep 21, 2006 8:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great hitting.
Lets go Elvis Preston
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He can pitch AND hit!
Weird that the best AB of the game for us to date comes from Carp. The man's a stud, though. :)
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 8:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

SPEEZ!
Runs are a good thing.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 8:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well Juan...
He's just not in the game tonight.  It's no tlike he is getting fooled on good pitches.  He's just up there blindly hacking at everything... no focus whatsoever.  Laaaazy approach to hitting.

by _pistol_ on Sep 21, 2006 8:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You just have to accept that Juan is
just going to look terrible sometimes.  Overall, he gives us decent numbers and defense, but he just aint that consistent.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

shoulda been e1
petitte fielded a slow roller towards 3rd that only he had a play on, wheeled in the attempt to get the dp and threw wide of the second baseman.  as the ball rolled slowly towards right-center, carp jogged home.

by sdesserman on Sep 21, 2006 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Especially
when we've got Pettitte at 50+ after 3 innings.
The cat is fine, thank you.

by Intheway on Sep 21, 2006 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why does yadi
insist on swinging at ball 4?  twice?

by sdesserman on Sep 21, 2006 8:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ummm
cuz he's a crummy hitter?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if we can't create our own runs
it's awfully generous of houston and andy to give us some.

by sdesserman on Sep 21, 2006 9:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dear Andy...
... thanks for giving us this game. i'm enjoying it.

by kindred on Sep 21, 2006 9:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

did miles just lay down a sacrifice
to bring up carpenter with 2 outs. that makes absoluetly no sense unless gameday screwed something up here

by jojo5492 on Sep 21, 2006 9:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looks like he was
bunting for a hit...
"Paging Dr. Kenneth Noisewater..."

by iron duke75 on Sep 21, 2006 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he must have
been bunting for a base hit and been credited w/ a sacrifice.  I can't imagine LaRussa calling that bunt.  But, yes, Miles did bunt and advance Molina to 2nd.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3-0
on an error, a DP, and now a WP....must be One Of Those Days for Pettitte....fine by me.

by nota bene on Sep 21, 2006 9:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hate that load Berkman
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

MLBTV
My MLBTV doesnt work...
my credibility as a fan is dwindling
That's a winner

by elhombrestlcards05 on Sep 21, 2006 9:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

fucking Berkman
how many times have we been victimized by an opposite field homerun from that guy?
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fat Elvis
pisses me off.

Carp recovers nicely, though.

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bugger...
...that ERA shot up to 2.82.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't a cheapie though...
that was no crawford box cheapshot, he hit that ball a ton.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 9:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah
you just have to pitch him inside, especially at the juice box.  Pitching him up and away is a recipe for disaster.  He loves hitting the ball to left and left center.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

1st and 3rd baby
For Phat Albert
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

C'mon, Albert
Bring the pain.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Can anyone say
Crawford boxes?
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

this looks promising
runners at the corners, nobody out, for El Hombre

by nota bene on Sep 21, 2006 9:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

injury delay...
with #5 at bat....someone quick, let me know it's not a nightmare

by martin on Sep 21, 2006 9:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pettitte
velocity down, wanted to check him.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

phooey on the Boxes
I wanna see Albert hit the stupid train back there again

by nota bene on Sep 21, 2006 9:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Inches...
...seemed like mere inches from a HR there.  Opposite field too.  Haven't see that in awhile.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

speizio
should've been at third.  That ball was hit like a rocket but he should've gone halfway and he should be at 3rd.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Take that bitches!!!!!!!!
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

c'mon Juan
he's looked terrible so far tonight.  Just drop one in somewhere.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Long single
wouldnt you say
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

HA
I dunno...ask the crater in the wall he left.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how about
a hit and run w/ Juan, who had struck out twice already and swings at everything in the zip code, w/ runners on 1st and 2nd.  Good call!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wtf Juan
Run it out you lazy bum
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

belated
Great analysis, Larry (and Jim). Very much enjoy this kind of stuff.

Larry, I'd add one more set of numbers to your case. Before tonight's game, Webb had allowed 9 unearned runs, Carp only 5. Adding those runs to their ERAs to get their RAs:
    Webb: 3.29
    Carp: 3.01

by DCGreg on Sep 21, 2006 9:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Juan'cion
looking like April Juan again.

Not good.

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

good hustle
Ronnie!  just beat it!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm listening on xm radio..
to the Astros broadcast.  I know Milo Hamilton is old, but he is terrible.  He paints a picture like a retarded kid and finger paint.

by _pistol_ on Sep 21, 2006 9:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

he is awful
he was done 20 years ago.  I still love hearing his call of Pujols' homer off Lidge last October...so matter of factly, it's (pause) a long home run!  Just thinking of it cracks me up!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's been done since before he...
...left the Braves. He called The Hammer's 715.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Q about XM
do they only give you the home team broadcast?  If so, I'm not getting it next year.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this has gotta be it for pettitte
92 pitches, already a visit to check on the elbow.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think
we got a break there, Ronnie looked out
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Izzy
Here's Bernie's report on Izzy:

It went well from the standpoint that they did not find it so bad that they'd have to "cap" the ball in the hip ... if they had to do that, he'd be done... but they were able to clean it up in a way that will allow him to try to pitch next season.

--B

-------

Not totally clear whether they had to shave off some of the bone -- that, I gather, would likely determine whether he'd be ready at the start of the season or sometime later. Anyone got any more info?

by DCGreg on Sep 21, 2006 9:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Carp
is just not very sharp tonight.  there's no excuse for leaving that 0-2 pitch over the middle of the plate!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good lord Carp...
stop acting like the rest of our pitchers and giving up runs immediately after getting them. Au revoir cy young.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Eh. Carp. :(
That's not fun.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

$99.99
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that's 2
double plays when he really needed them.  he's so unlike our other pitchers in that he can get out of jams when he gets in them.  w/ marquis or usually even weaver, that becomes a 4 or 5 run inning w/ lamb and berkman coming up.  he's so good even when he doesn't have his best.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Biggio needed 80 hits...
...coming into play tonight to reach 3000. Even though he drives me crazy, he's a heck of a ballplayer.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 9:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This is why we need home-field advantage.
Carp is a manbeast at Busch, and slightly more fallible when away. Even "mediocre Carp" is light years better than "regular Marquis," though.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

exactly!
but we're not going anywhere in the playoffs w/ mediocre carp.  we need special carp.  you're spot on about home field.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's our leadoff hitter...
... the one with the .303 OBP, .272 with STL.

by DCGreg on Sep 21, 2006 9:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

carp
has got to get the f-ing ball down!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

could carp look much worse tonight?
does he ever do good in the juicebox?
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 9:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ask and ye shall receive
Carp ERA in Houston:
  1. 5.79 (14 IP) (pre-tonight)    
  2. 1.13 (24 IP)  
  05 postseason: 3.86 (7IP)
2004: 0.00 (8 IP)

So it's a new phenomenon.

by DCGreg on Sep 21, 2006 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He hung a curveball
does not do that very often
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

and another there
lucky to get that one back.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

phew
Close call
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

berkman is a beast...
that guy is a hitting machine. he drives me crazy!

I'm sure houston fans say the same about Pujols.

"Don't fail to miss tomorrow's game!" - Dizzy Dean

by jdubya on Sep 21, 2006 9:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep...
Everything we feel towards Berkman is what they feel toward Pujols. Great hitter who just mercilessly kills another team.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carp screaming profanity
Hey, did anyone else hear Carp scream, "FUCK!!!!!!!!!!" after he struck out last inning?  If you're TiVoing it, go back and listen -- it's good for a laugh.

by sgfcards on Sep 21, 2006 9:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I heard it too!
as bad a hitter as he is, I was more than a little surprised.  he seems to take hitting so cavalierly but he obviously thought he should've hit that one.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL!
I have such a hard time visualizing Carp - who seems like such a nice, quiet, mild-mannered type - doing that! But actually, I sort of like it when players show fire in that way. As long as they don't progress to throwing stuff into the stands and or decking other players, then it's good.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

can anyone put it on youtube?
I'd love to enjoy that bit after Grey's Anatomy finishes up for the night.

by Elle on Sep 21, 2006 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

now that!
was a damn fine curveball!  Wow!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Glad to get
out of that inning unscathed
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just wanted to chime in
on the Snake Pit's summary of Carpenter.

It stunk. The end.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 9:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

c'mon Al
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Can anyone tell me.......
why put Juan behind AP instead of Rolen?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 9:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

another shitty offensive inning
5 runs is not going to be enough!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nice at bat
Juan!!!
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 9:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Carp out for the 7th?
Pitch count isn't too high, but it seems like his stuff isn't quite there.  What do you think?  6-7-8 hitters up.
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 9:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I could see him going 8
if he keeps the pitch count down this inning.  he's off to a good start!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if we can hold the lead
i think this'll be wainwright's 1st shot.  Tony's gonna have to see what he's got!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not disagreeing with you, but
I think Wainwright is far and away our best option.  Looper has been pretty good this year, alot better than I thought he would be and alot better than he was in NY, but Wainwright is the best pitcher we have in the 'pen.

Of course, knowing TLR's penchant for using vets, I'd say that's a pretty good bet.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice inning, Carp!
The man is Cy Young any day in my book. Let him do the eighth and let Adam close it out.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 9:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nice inning
9, 1, and 2 in the 8th.  ensberg?, biggio, and lamb w/ berkman if anyone gets on.  the 8th won't be as easy as the 7th.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

7 ip and 89 pitches thrown
If Carp has a good eighth inning, than I think he will be in the ninth to get a complete game
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 10:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be surprised
to see a lefty to pitch to lamb and berkman if either of the 1st 2 get on.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen
1 or 2 cardinal games before!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crap inning
...
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 10:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good test for Adam...
If the 8th goes 1-2-3, adamn will face the heart of the astros order in the 9th.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the phils
this isn't related to the game but mlbtraderumors has the phils' committed payroll for 07.  How would you like to have Utley, Howard, and Hamels for a COMBINED less than $1.5 million?  Wow!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They better enjoy it now
because that's going to be BIG $$$ in about three years.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It seems like Carp has had some pretty
high pitch counts in alot of his recent games.  Hope this doesn't wear his golden arm out for October......
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

he's gone
to at least 110 in each of his last three games.

by DCGreg on Sep 21, 2006 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who's warming?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Flores is up!
Berkman is in trouble now!

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or rather
We are.

<ducks and covers>

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone else
think that the Houston Astros are the fattest team in MLB?  Lamb and Berkman combined probably outweighs my entire family...
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure that Papi
single-handedly takes the crown.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good call...
forgot about that one.

They should make a fat all-star team.

In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They should actually put
David Ortiz, Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder in an outfield together.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

clemens
 is not exactly a flyweight either.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget about Clemens
Lord knows he's seen his waistline expand a few dozen sizes in the past few years.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this game just doesnt feel good.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

super pitch
walk berkman and pitch to scott.

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh my!
Carpenter just carved up Lamb like Lance Berkman's postgame turkey.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Walk him walk him walk him
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Guhhhh.
This is so scary.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bigtime K
from Carp, now intentionally walk Berkman!
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 10:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Walk him walk him walk him
Walk him walk him walk him Walk him walk him walk him Walk him walk him walk him Walk him walk him walk him
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OK or K him
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really do hate
Lance Berkman.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
GODDAMMIT
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

mother fucker
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hate this team...
Why would you pitch to him there? That's about as freaking stupid as pitching to Pujols. Great job.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why not?
For chrissakes, it's not like Berkman is Bonds. Carpenter is one of the best pitchers in baseball, he made a really bad pitch.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Berkman
You're right, but he's both their only truly great hitter and he's hit Carpenter well both historically and tonight.

He shoulda seen the end of that inning from first base.

by levistahl on Sep 21, 2006 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why o why
did they even pitch to him. that made NO SENSE whatsoever!
aka "the Rev"

by erik on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

WHAT DID I SAY
WTF
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

wtf
does in the dirt mean?!!!!!!!!  or how about "walk him and pitch to scott"?  how can you f-ing leave that pitch up for him to hit out?  that's fucking ridiculous!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No more cy young...
no more home field.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

there's yer game.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ugh. Ugh. That feels like....
I don't even know what it feels like.

Why in the hell didn't we walk him?

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

crap on a crap cracker
I'm going to my happy place now.

by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

WTF!!!!!
Berkman is the only fucking hitter on this damn team!  Goddamnit!!!!! WALK HIM!!!!!!

by Big Red on Sep 21, 2006 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And Scott pops out
WHY DIDN'T WE WALK HIM?!?!!
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well
the good news is that Lidge will probably pitch the 9th and Aaron Miles leads off...we have to get to Alberto SOMEHOW...
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tony! What does it take?!
to walk the guy? Jeez. He's already hit one HR. Has the most HRs against Carp.

Unbelievable!

"Don't fail to miss tomorrow's game!" - Dizzy Dean

by jdubya on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow
I thought we had him. I question the call to pitch to him there but he is our Cy Young candidate. Either go after him or don't, but not something inbetween.

by Brownale on Sep 21, 2006 10:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ABSTL.....
why would you not IBB him to set up the force play?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Uh...
I was the one who said we should walk him.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i was too.......just wondering if someone knew
something i didnt!  WTF man
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Sep 21, 2006 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

where's the lefty?
why do you warm up the lefty if you're not going to bring him in?  if you're going to stick w/ carp, how can you not walk berkman, intentionally or unintentionally?  there's no excuse from tony, dunc, or carp for that one.  there is no way he should get a pitch to hit in that situation!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

told ya
we needed 2 more runs!  and here's wheeler, notice no lidge!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Damn
Wheeler is more shutdown than Lidge.

by ryanisforever on Sep 21, 2006 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If we don't melt down and pull a 64 phillies...
which isn't out of the question with this pitching staff.
That's beer, that's Budweiser.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 21, 2006 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're not taking any chances with Lidge
Dan Wheeler in.

Aauuugh, that hurts. I hate Berkman. I really, really do.

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gah
Terrible pitch 3-2.  Not because of the terrible location, he had no business throwing a cutter there.  Great pitch selection up until that point, then just a terrible mistake;

He goes cutter off the plate in, cutter in ball, cutter in strike.  Set up perfectly for the next 2 seamer<---GREAT pitch.  Misses with cutter in, then Twinkle Toes fouls off curve.  Set up beautifully for another 2 seamer running back over the plate...instead cutter deposited into the seats.  

Showed it to him 4 times in the at-bat prior to 3-2, he's not going to get himself out on it.  Had to come either 2 or 4 low and away (but can't because of the fucking Crawford boxes, pardon my French...the stadium still screws us) or 2 seam running back over the plate.

Dumb dumb dumb.

A diamond is just a lump of coal that performed well under pressure

by joker24 on Sep 21, 2006 10:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

this guy
is their closer next year.  Lidge will be somewhere else!  

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

how many
games are we gonna give away this road trip?  I guess 3 more is the most we can give away, thank god!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm going to cry.
Why didn't we just walk Berkman...? Scott popped out on the 2nd pitch....

This one hurts like hell.

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What was
Donut boy looking for there fuick'
kgyf;g/olytg7.o
]'
Losing is a disease

by ANDYAK47 on Sep 21, 2006 10:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They beat our best pitcher...
mainly because we have NOBODY ELSE.

by craig3410 on Sep 21, 2006 10:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

we had a lefty
we had wainwright, and we had luke scott in the on deck circle!  most of us would've rather not had flores out there but luke scott was a pretty good option!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

fuck me!
what a bunch of bullshit!  the offense can't get 1 damned run off of dave borkowsky?  hardly a surprise considering we couldn't get 1 last night off of carlos villanueva whoever he is.  carp can't hold the astros to 5 runs in 8 innings.  and larussa absolutely has brain lock w/ berkman up in a game-ending situation!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Forget 1 run
We didn't even get 1 hit off that guy.
In Albert we trust.

by Mr Redbird on Sep 22, 2006 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you Tony "I'm a F'in Genius Just....
...Ask Me" La Russa for another brilliantly managed game. Please go manage an old-timers team of Mac, Conseco, Sosa, Palmerio, Bonds, etc and juice yourselves to acne back heaven.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 21, 2006 10:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's gonna take me a while to recover
from this one.

G'night, y'all....

Poor Carp. Poor team. Poor us. No. Reason. To. Pitch To. Fat Elvis. There.

And sadly, it already doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -- Ozzy Osbourne

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Sep 21, 2006 10:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hate
losing to the Astro-holes.  It really bites.  Really.
I'm going to my happy place now.

by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 21, 2006 10:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

unlike most
i tend to, if not agree with, at least understand larussa's moves.  if you remember the one where he pinch hit juan for duncan and most howled.  (juan struck out, we lost).  i at least understood the logic of the move.  I have a higher opinion of him than most here do.  

But i cannot understand or justify pitching to berkman there.  Carp's responsible too b/c he's got to know not to lay a fat one over the plate in that situation.  But Tony had to know that Carp was tiring.  We needed 1 out, not 3.  Berkman already had a double and a homer off of Carp, was seeing the ball really well.  There is no explanation -- the one about not putting the go ahead run on base -- b.s.  the go ahead run was already in scoring position b/c he was in the batter's box!  the astros would've been stupid to pitch to pujols in that situation and we were stupid to pitch to berkman there.  no excuse, bad managing, bad pitching!

by chuckb on Sep 21, 2006 10:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wheew...a hilarious premiere of the Office later
and I find out that Brandon Webb has given up 3 ERs through 4 innings.

THERE IS HOPE!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 21, 2006 11:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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