Starting Rotation Debate

by OKCardsfan on Aug 24, 2006 4:55 PM EDT Comment 23 comments

I want to debate two things.

What has to be done this year. Looking at who we got and what they have done, what is the perfect senario for us to succeed this year. (This is where I hope the stat guys find optimum pitching performances ie. Weavers only good till the fifth or If Marquis gets past the third he's good till the eighth.)
What could happen next year. People have been throwing names all over this blog. (Schmidt has been the favorite) I want a starting rotation that we can afford, but has the right mix of talent that there is no quote un quote blaring weaknesses. Obviously I don't know every players contract, but I always feel if theres a will theres a way.

So there it is. Give me your say on this year, and give me your starting five next year.

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Maybe this'll work

How about this?

Carpenter
Suppan
Wainwright
Bipolar Betty (until Reyes shows)
Bipolar Betty (after Reyes returns)

There. That's better. No Weaver. Off to the bullpen you go, Jeff.

by philbobilbo on Aug 24, 2006 5:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

How about this?

Carp
Suppan
Reyes
Gil Meche
Pettitte or Buehrle

Meche will be an ace in the next 2 years with some good guidance and Pettitte or Buehrle could be a decent lefty for us. Wainwright I want to stay in the pen and be our closer....SOON!

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Aug 24, 2006 5:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Buehrle has always said if he leaves the White Sox he wants to play for them team he grew up rooting for (aka the cardinals). So maybe that's a plus. But they love him here in Chicago. Maybe Ozzie will get mad at him for no reason and he'll want out.

by aet15 on Aug 24, 2006 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pettitte won't be a cardinal

For one thing, I don't think the Astros will let him go (especially to wander about the NL Central), and another thing, Pettitte's been overachieving lately. He's usually very '06 Mulder-like.

by EckEqualsClutch on Aug 25, 2006 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree on Meche as an ace

He will be 28 years old in a couple of weeks, and here's his line from the last few seasons:

2003SEA    186.1 IP 63BB 130K 4.59ERA 1.34WHIP .263BAA
2004SEA 127.2 IP 47BB     99K 5.01ERA 1.46WHIP .273BAA
2005SEA    143.1 IP 72BB     83K 5.09ERA 1.57WHIP .275BAA
2006SEA 143.0 IP 67BB 117K 4.66ERA 1.48WHIP .263BAA

Even figuring in that he's in the AL, that's still not great numbers. Or even a positive trend toward great numbers. And he's clearly no workhorse. I would say he appears to be more like a young Suppan.

by blove121 on Aug 25, 2006 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh yeh

And about Jeff, HE GONE!

Play hard, play to win, but make it fun!

by Edmonds is baseball on Aug 24, 2006 5:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

this should work

this is a possibility.

1.carp
2.buerhle/pettite
3.westbrook
4.reyes
5.sosa

"jizzy izzy makes my dizzy cuz he keeps the basepaths buzy"

by jcarro100 on Aug 24, 2006 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the rest of this year and next (pitchers)

Be honest, who other than carpenter, do we have for this year,? really think about it, Reyes, be honest, he had one great game against the sox, so tell me what else did he have while he was up with the cardinals, He does well in the minors, (BUT), we need major help, Now Suppan, Be honest is he better than a 500 pitcher,? that to me is not a pitcher that you can count on in the playoff's. So who does that leave for this year,,? NO-ONE,lets all be honest, no one is going to get his hands on wainwright.. at least i hope not, Use Looper now to be the closer,
Weaver,/ really you must be kidding,, Izzie should be traded now, i dont mean later i mean now someone may want him. (good luck) I see where tony say's Izzie is his closer for the rest of the year, all i can say Tony, If you worked for me , you would be gone, you have been a good manager for some time but your dead wrong on this

by billy t on Aug 24, 2006 7:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree somewhat

You are right that we only have one true ace on our staff. However I will make an argument that Suppan would be good in the playoffs only because he has been there. Marquis has, but is too much of a headcase. But unfortunatly we do not have the pitching weapons we need to go deep in the playoffs.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." -Bob Gibson

by OKCardsfan on Aug 24, 2006 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the real closer

It's time for tony to realize who the real closer is for the cardinals, (wainwright), the poll taken concerning Izzie was 80% against. Do the fans know that much more than Tony,? I wonder what managment would think if at the next home game Tony brought Izzie in to close out a close game and 80%of the fans walked out, just a thought

by billy t on Sep 6, 2006 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good

I really like some of the rotations. I guess I'm "old school" when it comes to a baseball team. I think of "The Heat is On" teams I grew up with. I also think that a rotation NEEDS a Veteran that helps the "kiddies" along. I think of the 90's Braves and how many pitchers came out of that organization. Mixing old with new. Teaching the young to really pitch and be successful. That is what we truly need. A teaching Veteran. I'll miss you DK 57.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." -Bob Gibson

by OKCardsfan on Aug 24, 2006 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

DK

I miss DK as well.

I guess here's another question. Had DK not died, would we have picked up Carp during that offseason in 02?

Redbirds Fun
The Kentucky Democrat

by cardsfan84 on Aug 25, 2006 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Most teams cannot afford two aces

the cardinals were lucky enough to have one of their cheap reclamation projects pan out in the form of Carpenter a bonafide ace. Next year is the last year we will have Jed imo and Rolen is due to start declining soon as well.

Jason Schmidt will cost a lot but he's also a bonafide ace. So if you sign him at above market value - lets say 13-14 million for 5 years - your rotation next year would be

Carpenter - 7million
Schmidt - 12 million (first year would be less)
Reyes - league minimum 350k
Wainwright - league minimum 350k
FA ~ 5 million

= 25 million

That's not unreasonable for next year. Now that could very very easily cripple us for the future if Schmidt gets hurt or declines rapidly but WOW what a rotation. 2 hammers at the top and league average from the 3 & 4 spots (probably) and then whatever the 5 spot gives you is gravy. Let's build a team that can win in the post season - tweak it along the way to make sure we win the regular season and go for the gold.

Worry about Carpenter's contract and the rotation later. Keep Tank/Narveson/Sosa/Hancock around for spot starts if someone gets hurt. With Pujols, Rolen, Encarnacion, Edmonds and role players we could afford to be cheap at other positions esp. if Dunc keeps producing.

That's my 2 cents worth...

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Aug 24, 2006 11:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

umm how about...

Chris Narveson as the 5th starter. It gives us another guys at the league minimum (more money freed up for Schmidt or offense). We'd need a lefty starter next year anyways and Narvie is doing pretty well down at Memphis with another good start tonight.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Aug 25, 2006 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How much money would we have to spend

...to restock the bullpen?

I guess we could call up Brad Thompson.

by EckEqualsClutch on Aug 25, 2006 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

good bullpen's are not made with money

look where our money is invested right now: Izzy, Looper, Rincon

Who has been producing: Wainwright, Hancock, Sosa (to a lesser extent)

TLR and DD can put together a good bullpen with the parts we have on hand. Hancock, Sosa, Thompson, Falkenborg, Kinney, Cavasoz are all RHP that have a chance of being servicable for near league minimum. The LHP are a little uglier but why not try out Narveson in that role...can he be any worse than what we are watching now.

$$$ go to great offensive players and starting pitching not relief, imho.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2006 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

azruavatar, are you related to Schmidt?

or maybe you're his agent!

Just kidding. I like Schmidt as well. Carp & Schmidt would make a killer 1-2 combo.

I also agree that we should concentrate on starting pitching. We have decent guys in the minors to fill out the bullpen. Although, I'd like to see at least 1 or 2 young flame throwers in the bullpen. Mark Worrell comes to mind. Maybe Chris Perez? Probably not ready.

by jdubya on Aug 25, 2006 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hell I wish I was his agent

he's gonna be swimming in money after this offseason.

I think that this was the mistake that the Twins made (although they lacked the hitting core). When they had perhaps the best SP in all of baseball signed for so very very little, I think that is when you splurge and sign someone big but they haven't done that imo.

The cardinals have a special oppurtunity to build around some older, still productive veterans while complimenting them with some talented cheap young players. It's a golden oppurtunity. The front office was headed in the right direction by trying to get Burnett but when that fell through they made some less than stellar signings. They've exacerbated that problem by not kicking some players to the curb/DL when needed (Marquis, Mulder) and demoting players who have a better chance to perform than others (Reyes).

Gotta have that 1-2 punch in the rotation and some pop in the lineup. We've got some pop, we've got #1 and we're missing that second ace at the top.

Acquire Jason Schmidt!

by azruavatar on Aug 25, 2006 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's really all it comes down to

if the cards had a schmidt-type to complement carpenter, we'd all be looking forward to doing some damage in october. but when jeff weaver's your #2 starter . . . . .

by lboros on Aug 25, 2006 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

Especially after this season, with all the DFA's we aquired. I think we stock the rotation as best we can, use JED, Rolen, and Pujols as the base of the offense, and pick up good hitters. (key word) Make it a blend of TLR ball and Whiteyball. That way you aren't relying on Albert. He becomes the power source, but the team can still score by hitting singles all day.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." -Bob Gibson

by OKCardsfan on Aug 25, 2006 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you.

Two aces are the bare minimum for real playoff contention. And this is still a playoff team at its core - and by "core" I mean Pujols and Rolen and whoever they can get to play along with them.

$25 mil for an effective starting rotation is not unreasonable to ask.

by taiko on Aug 25, 2006 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Next year

I would love to see a rotation like this:

Carpenter
Big Name Starter Type or otherwise proven guy
Reyes
Wainwright
Mulder

The way he's self-destructed over the last half-season, Mulder would make a fine no-pressure pickup if his value is as damaged as I think it is; Garciaparra was forced to schlep for a one-year contract for far less. If he regains form you've got a #2/#3 on the cheap, and if he doesn't, the Cardinals have Chris Narveson and Blake Hawksworth in the high minors.

by DanUpBaby on Aug 25, 2006 3:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs