reyes our hopes

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 8:59 AM EDT in News Comment 179 comments

well, they lost a game but they gained a pitcher. outstanding tradeoff.

the season just got a lot more interesting.

how refreshing was it to see a guy get batters out on pitches inside the strike zone? to see him attack hitters rather than nibble at corners? working with no margin for error -- the kid never had a lead -- against a potent lineup in a hitter's park, reyes went right after the white sox; he fell behind in the count against only 6 of the 26 batters he faced, and 4 of those occurred in the first trip through the lineup.

even la russa/dunc had to have been impressed; they like competitors. they also like pitchers who throw complete games when the bullpen desperately needs rest; maybe those two old buzzards will start to warm up to the kid a little. here are some of la russa's postgame thoughts, from matt leach's recap:

"That's as big a test as you're going to have. [It's a] 0-0 game with quality hitters at the plate. It was great to see. He didn't change anything. That's the way he pitched for them not to have any real rallies. That was a wow performance."

"What a performance. It shows you there's no justice when he's the losing pitcher. He should have gotten a no-decision at worst. That was really good."

in just 90 pitches, the kid erased the previous two nights' demoralizing mound scenes and gave us pissed-off petes something to feel good about. he could be the missing #2 pitcher we've been pining away for, the guy you can throw in october -- on carptenter's nights off -- who inpsires confidence on our side and doubt in the opposition's. emphasize could be -- it was only one game, after all. but he came into a tense situation and pitched with great composure, more than standing up to the circumstances . . . . well, even that's not entirely true. he seemed oblivious to the circumstances, which is even better. and he was also unshaken by the additional tension he created for himself by carrying a no-hitter into the 7th inning. he told joe strauss at the p-d, "I never really thought about (a no- hitter). I was just happy to keep the team within striking distance." i like the attitude, and the statement rings true. he appeared to be as relaxed as if he were pitching at a sunday picnic. or for memphis. or even for kansas city.

in the end, he got beat by a great hitter -- no shame in that. it may not have been a coincidence that thome homered on the 1st pitch after having stayed at the plate for 9 pitches in his previous at-bat; got himself a good look at the rookie, saw that reyes was throwing nothing but strikes, and went up there looking for a fastball down in the zone; didn't miss his pitch.

guys with 450+ career homers will do that to you sometimes.

the universe being what it is -- baseball being what it is -- we should not be surprised that the offense, so fecund in alberto's absence, became barren upon his return. that, too, is only one game, but it underscores what is, in my mind, still a pressing concern for this team -- the lack of punch. the cards' designated hitters the last two games were a part-time infielder and a reserve outfielder who'll prob'y be back in the minors (or out of baseball) by the end of next month. the other team's dh was jim thome. the cardinals do have chris duncan, who's slugging .600 . . . but also has 0 walks vs 14 strikeouts, and is whiffing more than a third of the time. hard to sustain an acceptable level of production when you're failing to make contact that routinely. those k/w numbers remind me of the sev'l occasions (i can immediately think of 3) in which duncan came up with the bases loaded, ran the count full . . . . and then got himself out by swinging and missing at ball 4. he's a far sight better than timo perez, don't get me wrong; but i can understand why they might send him down with instructions to work on a few things.

and speaking of albert's return. . . . didn't expect to see him back this soon, and am frankly not happy to see it. a few days after the injury, i wrote this:

he will no doubt demand to come back before he's ready -- that's his nature -- so it'll be up to the team to keep him out of action until it's truly safe for him to play again, with minimal risk of re-aggravating the injury. but suppose it's early july and the cards are feeling heat from the astros, or they've fallen a few games behind the reds, and albert says "get me out there dammit, i'm fine, i gotta help the team" . . . . will the cards impose the discipline necessary to avoid a foolish risk? or will anxiety cloud la russa's judgment?

panic move, or well-considered decision; you be the judge. at that time, i was thinking early july might be an imprudently proxmiate date for his return -- i was like, "give him the full six weeks" -- but under the present circumstances i guess i'd say i would have settled for early july. . . . . here's what will carroll wrote just yesterday at baseball prospectus, well before the surprise announcement that pujols would play:

Albert Pujols is pushing for his return, continuing to pass all the challenges that the St. Louis medical staff puts in front of him. . . . . Pujols isn't outside the timeline for a [return from a] mild oblique strain, though he is well within the period where recurrences happen, the ones that are always worse than the original injury.

i keep putting up the link to this post, written last week. . . . . tony has gotten away with this sort of stuff before, but when you're playing chicken you better have a 1.000 winning percentage; .900 is the same as .000.

and now i'll just shut up.

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i have

said this in pretty much every comment regarding our pitching, but how nice would it be to have carpenter, haren, reyes, wainwright, marquis as our starting rotation? so young, so much potential.

who are we going to see pitch in mulders spot now? tank? wainwright? bullpen game?

hopefully they dont do the bullpen game, the pen is stretched out enough as it is after the sox series.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

ponson is scheduled

n/t

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gah

figures. hopefully he pitches better than he did against the sox where he just came in and threw the ball around like a big baby.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

miklasz reports

that ponson had a closed-door meeting with mr la russa and was told --- well, we can guess what he was told. something like, "quit pouting, or your fat ass will very soon be wallowing in wet aruba sand."

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if i start pouting

may i PLEASE wallow my fat ass in wet aruba sand?

by Schnake on Jun 23, 2006 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, it doesn't

sound bad at all . . . . .

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

AND

you can punch all the judges you want! It's paradise!

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 23, 2006 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What an amazing performance by the kid

And now, after stewing about it at work all night, I can honestly say that I am still pissed off. I've tried to think positively, but it is just so ridiculously unfair that Reyes took his first big-league loss after pitching his best big-league game.

Tony, if this didn't convince you to tear up the kid's return ticket to Memphis, then nothing will...

I think that young Anthony has definitely earned a Braskyism...but I'm still too angry to think of one right now...

In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 9:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd much rather gripe about that kind of injustice

than the two previous games.

Reyes was damn good last night but somtimes pitchers don't get the win. He did lower his ERA to a pristine 1.80 - eat your heart our Mark Mulder, ye of the 5.89 ERA.

by azruavatar on Jun 23, 2006 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sadly, Mulder is actually

of the 6.09 ERA... :-(

In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brasky

Last night Anthony Reyes threw eight innings of one-hit baseball--a homerun. Unfortunately, his teammates didn't score. So after the game, Reyes went out into the crowd, found the kid with the ball, paid him $100 for it, and then brought it back to the club house. Then, with his bare hands, he ripped the ball into 9 equal pieces, and then shoved each piece down the throats of his teammates, so they'd know what victory tasted like. Except for Albert. He just set his piece in front of him, and walked away with a look of disgust. Albert force-fed himself.

Here's to Anthony Reyes.

by tinstl on Jun 23, 2006 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that sounds

like some kind of chuck norris lore.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps you should set up

anthoneyreyesfacts.com

by sdrone on Jun 23, 2006 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if mulder

can figure out how to throw in the 90s again a rotation of carp, mulder, reyes in the postseason sure would be nice. let us hope reyes as a better mental makeup than ankiel (crosses fingers)

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ankiel

Reyes turns 25 in October. As in, he's only 2 years younger than Ankiel, yet (hopefully) finally getting a chance in the majors about 6 years after Ankiel did.

At some point, Cardinal fans (and maybe Tony) have to let Ankiel go - what happened to him was a fluke. Not every pitcher with promise is going to melt down once he hits the playoffs. In fact, it's going to happen almost never.

by Robb on Jun 23, 2006 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i know

that the odds of that happening to reyes are next to nothing, but it is hard to let ankiel go when he won the rookie of the year and looked to be an ace for the next 10 years to come. i dont even get why he freaked, we had a 5 run lead.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ankiel wasn't Rookie of the Year

... in 2000, at least not the "official" BBWAA rookie of the year...

Rafael Furcal got 25 first-place votes (Ankiel had 6) to easily take the award.

by salvomania on Jun 23, 2006 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He had an abusive dad

who forced him into baseball. Said abusive dad was sentenced to something like 20 years in jail for drug trafficing one week before the playoffs began. That likely has waaaaay more to do with the Ankiel meltdown than tony or playoff pressure or any of that. I can find sources if I have time, maybe this weekend.

by Valatan on Jun 23, 2006 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree,

and even if Reyes did suffer a playoff melt-down, it would probably be on a much smaller scale and wouldn't mean the end of his pitching career. Rick's melt-down was apocalyptic; didn't he set a new record for wild pitches in a game when it happened?

I think it will be many, many moons before we see something like that again.

In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ankiel

I believe that Ankiel holds the record for most wild pitches in a playoff series in MLB history. And he only pitched something like 4 innings in that series.

by Robb on Jun 23, 2006 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ankiel

Think there's any chance Ankiel will ever pitch again?

by Archaeopteryx on Jun 23, 2006 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe if he gets shot

by a crazy lady ... disappears for like 15 years and comes back as the greatest hitter ever.

He might play catch with his kid in a wheat field then. But that's about it.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he seems

to think he is an outfielder now. too bad he cant stay healthy to show anyone else.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but

You remember--I remember--how he threw before the meltdown. A guy with that curve. He's a pitcher. Light-hitting outfielders are a dime a dozen (or maybe 15 million for three years--I'm not sure). A guy who can pitch...isn't there anybody who can help this kid pitch? Have the Cards not found some sports psychologist, or hypnotist, or someone who can cast hog entrails in such a way that it convinces Ankiel that his future has to do with throwing the ball and not trying to whack it?

by Archaeopteryx on Jun 23, 2006 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he isnt

really a light hitting outfielder. he has pretty good power potential. didnt he hit like 22 homers in 400 at bats last year in the minors? that isnt too bad considering he was like 0 for his first 80 when he first started playing the outfield.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, true, but...

He's never going to be more than a role-player as an outfielder. That curve might get him a Cy Young.

But only if he throws it.

by Archaeopteryx on Jun 23, 2006 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

he will never be anything special in the outfield. he just has so many problems, im not even sure therapy could help this guy now.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

21 homers

and 75 rbi last year in 85 games (321 ab) with just 66 Ks---not bad for his first full year as a position player...

by salvomania on Jun 23, 2006 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

true but

isnt he 27 now? he just went down for another season. so now he has to rehab all over again and then try to get back in a groove again. by the time he gets a shot in the bigs as an outfielder he will be 30 years old. kind of a waste.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No different

than the rest of our outfield prospects (Gall, Rodriguez, etc.)

by Solanus on Jun 24, 2006 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He changed position...

...after a couple of arm surgeries. They've decided his arm can't take pitching.

Even if he could consistently throw strikes again with his fastball, he doesn't have the stuff anymore.

by whopperman on Jun 23, 2006 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

DAMN...

the kid rocked! What you say about his being oblivious to the trial of fire he was thrown into is definately what impressed me most. God, to have somebody (besides Carp) take the hill with authority really relaxed my inner demon. I was getting so sick of seeing that "deer in the headlights" look on our pitchers' faces (which was becoming common well before this Sox debacle). It was only one game, but it was a doozy. If he can make that happen with any kind of consistency at all, welcome #2. Maybe a little less pressure on Mulder will help him as well. As for Albert, gah! MAKE him sit awhile yet. The risk is so NOT worth maybe a few homers in interleague games. Whatever, but if they get bit by this decision and he ends up out later in the season because of it, that will piss me off more than any other boneheaded move they've ever made.

by rockin redbird on Jun 23, 2006 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Can we remove Reyes from the prospect list?

Is it time for us to quit using his name as trade fodder?

by ibby001 on Jun 23, 2006 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i really

don't recall reyes ever being used as trade bait. the pirates wanted him for wilson and the cardinals rightly said no way. other than that i havent heard his name come up.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Went To That Game Last Night

had good seats - my fiancé's company is a Sox season ticket holder -- got to see this kid Reyes up close -- I can tell you that kid definately has mound presence. He looked like a ten year veteran out there. I was VERY impressed by his demeanor. He really looked like the real deal, changing speeds and getting good hitters to fly out softly. He really impressed me.

I had no idea Pujols was going to play until I got to the park. You've got to be excited about his return.

Don't know if they showed this on TV, but the Cards middle infield was clearly trying to distract Pierzynski at the plate with Dye on 3rd base after Taguchi's error. Eckstein and Miles would be even with the bag and then come charging in just as Reyes would get ready to deliver the pitch -- it worked too as A.J. lined softly to Eckstein.

Bobby Jenks registered 100 MPH on the stadium speed gun a couple of times -- what an arm that guy has.

I really think the Cards will start to win a games in bunches soon. That was a heck of a ballgame last night, you should be proud of that kid's performance; holding that Sox team to one hit is quite an accomplishment. Best pitching performance I've seen for a while from anybody, let along a rookie...

A Cubs fan just visiting

by brianp88 on Jun 23, 2006 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

for the comment--glad to hear it looked even more impressive in person.

by rockin redbird on Jun 23, 2006 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thanks brian

for the scouting report; very much appreciated. great to have an in-person perspective. on tv he did look very composed, but you miss a lot on the little screen . . . . glad that you saw what we saw.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i just

love reyes socks and his no bent hat bill. i sported both the high socks and no bent bill in high school and enjoy seeing him with them as well.

and yeah, i just realized in the top the 9th that our directv receives the comcast station (sure wish id known BEFORE the 9th inning) and just caught jenks completely blow away juancion. juan didnt even budge the first three pitches (i thought the 3rd that was called a ball was way too close to watch) and then just got smoked on the 100mph heater up at the neckline.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you won't

take offense if I say it's a dorky look, but I like it. It shows independence of mind and imperturbability, which a good starting pitcher should have.

And it's a refreshing antidote to the slob look that some players go for (Manny Ramirez, CC Sabathia, etc.).

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2006 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha

yeah i know he looks kinda goofy out there, but i like it. he can look like gustavo chacin as long as he pitches like chris carpenter.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IIRC

Reyes used to wear glasses, and he ironed his bill so it wouldn't push the glasses down on his face. Now it has become a trademark...

I like it, but I think I like the socks just as much...

In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i seem to recall

a certain #45 was like that too.

8/13/79- Lou Brock 3000 hits

by lb3000 on Jun 23, 2006 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also like the way

he looks in to get the signs ... like he's got poor eyesight and can barely see the catcher's fingers. That's gotta have a subtle unconscious effect on the hitters.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 23, 2006 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha well

the guy above said he used to wear glasses. maybe he does have poor eyesight. any chance we can get him some ricky vaughn glasses?

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That

would be phucking awesome!

Maybe play a little "Wild Thing" when he takes the field?

In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think

this may upset papelbon from boston seeing as he already sported the ricky vaughn haircut and has now seemingly mastered the ricky vaughn bad boy stare down.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome

A Fish Called Wanda

a pund says you won't kill her!

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 23, 2006 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't eat the green ones

They're not ripe yet!

Absolute classic!

by Solanus on Jun 23, 2006 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I'm so very very very

very very sor.....AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH FUCK YOU!"

"It's ka-ka-ka Ken, ca-ca-ca coming to ka-ka-ka kill me!"

:-D

"I love watching your ass when you walk, is that beautiful or what!"

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is my favorite scene in the movie

Hello K-k-k-ken's P-p-p-pets.

Wake up limey fish!

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 23, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"What is this? 'Hump a Limey' week?"

"Ok... Ok... DISAPPOINTED!"

"You're a very attractive man, Ken. You're... smart, you've got wonderful bones, and you dress really interestingly."

I think I'm gonna go watch that movie right now...

"I love watching your ass when you walk, is that beautiful or what!"

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still say that

the look should net him the nickname ducky (flat bill,

by Valatan on Jun 23, 2006 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Same here

While you wouldn't catch me dressing like Reyes, I'm glad that he likes it. I think you summed it up perfectly when you said it shows he has "independence of mind". He's obviously not one to be satisfied with just being normal.

by rob is back on Jun 23, 2006 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

post season

its impossible to predict what reyes would do in a post season game but there were a lot of potential distractions this game (getting pounded the two previous nights, bull pen needs rest, starting pitching in general on a tailspin, fearsome lineup, away game) and he seemed oblivious to it all.

by dmb60614 on Jun 23, 2006 9:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I can't really be upset

Reyes came in blew away my expectations. I was hoping for 6 innings if 3 or 4 run ball.

That was just impressive. He hit spots, covered first, was composed and bore down with Dye on 3rd.

He and Yadi seemed to click together.

Albert back so soon makes me REALLY nervous. This is a marathon, not a sprint and I'd take him sitting for 4 weeks to make sure he is fresh for October and won't get reinjured.

In fact, I'm sort of giddy today. True it was only one game, but my goodness what a performance by Reyes and Yadi.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 23, 2006 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

disturbing trend

La russa and the management ignoring medical science lately is bothersome.

this might be a worse trend than their love for veteran pitchers. at the very least, it gives reason to stay suspect of the team's management.

Cardinals Diaspora

by VanRam on Jun 23, 2006 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

evidence

What other evidence is there of Tony/Duncan ignoring medical science?

Also, what other young pitchers have been bypassed because of veterans...Oh I how I love this urban myth.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well they

said they wouldnt rush pujols back and he seems to be back sooner than initial reports. they said edmonds needed to go on the dl and then started him that very same day. im not saying they are ignoring medical science, it just seems they are playing it on the risky side.

as for young pitchers being passed up, haren may not have been passed up but he was traded away because ladunc wanted a veteran. sure would like to have haren, who did just as good as mulder last year and is pitching well again this year and is 3 years younger.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

come on

Thats total hindsight talk on Haren. Youre tellin me that at the time of the trade you would have taken Dan Haren over Mark Mulder?

No way.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

my opinion is based on hindsight. but in 2004 mulder posted a 4.43 era. in 2004 haren had a 4.50 era. doesnt seem like much of an upgrade and when you consider haren is 3 years younger, it makes even less sense. didnt we also give up a pretty good hitter in that deal?

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

New Mulder Had Problems

We knew Mulder could have problems when we got him from the A's. He was already on his downward slide. We also knew that Haren was an up and comer (with some slight risk) but hee had pitched quite well the previous season.

We also had to give up one of our decent bullpen arms in the trade as well if I recall.

It's just the La Dunca preference to take a slightly damaged veteran vs. an unknown youngster. Obviously it tends to work alright for them (see Woody Williams) but at the end of the day we don't end up with any of the lively young arms.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wasnt it

a 3 for 1 deal? haren, some outfielder/first baseman who was a good prospect whose name is on the tip of my tongue and kiko calero? or maybe they signed kiko later.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haren, Calero...

and Daric Barton.

We gave up WAY too much. Mulder, even at his best, was never worth Haren, Calero and a prospect.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 23, 2006 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

how is

barton doing in the a's system anyway? i remember he was solely a first baseman in our system but i thought i heard when he got to the As they wanted him to try some left field.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought he was a catcher?

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barton

wikipedia link

Not extremely detailed stats but some info in there

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like...

he's had trouble adjusting to AAA. Was only hitting .259 for Sacramento before breaking a bone in or near his left elbow. Out 6-8 weeks.

Obsessions of a Cardinal Fan

by Quietude on Jun 23, 2006 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

see

Now we are getting off topic. I didn't talk about the trade in general. We are talking about Duncan/LaRussa perferring veteran arms over young arms.

Let's stay on point. At that time, every single manager/GM in baseball would have taken Mark Mulder over Dan Haren. Im not talking about the overall trade..im talking about comparing the two and this whole, Tony/Dunc don't like young pitchers.

Mulder was 27 at the time, Haren 24. 27 years old is NOT old. Haren was 6-10 lifetime with a 4.85 ERA and 1.416 WHIP. Mulder was 81-42 with a 3.92 ERA and 1.284 WHIP. Honestly, who would have preferred Haren straight up there??

Again, Im fine with criticism when its fair and valid. But this whole anti young pitcher thing is a myth that has never actually been backed up....yet people keep talking about it..talking about it...talking about it.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

apparently the

As wouldnt have taken mulder over haren.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

youre wrong

Barton was the key to the deal. Beane wouldnt have traded Mulder for Haren straight up. No way.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well that

make the trade that much worse since barton is considered the As best hitting prospect. Haren is sporting a 3.23 era.

but again, this is all hindsight and it sucks that we dont have a crystal ball for this very reason.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not too much hindsight.

i may be mistaken, but didn't joe sheehan or someone shortly after the trade say that haren had about an even shot at being better than mulder in 2005?

by dagniel on Jun 23, 2006 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

in limited

time in 2004 he was just as good. in 2005 he was better. so far in 2006 he is 10 times better.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

beano, i know you are

sincere about this, but here's where i differ with you. in 11 years as the stl manager, la russa has only developed one starting pitcher who stayed in the rotation for more than a season: matt morris. other than matt, every long-term member of the rotation has been brought over from another organization.

none of other young pitchers he has promoted --- jose jimenez, dan haren, jason simontaachi, bud smith, manny aybar, etc etc --- were long-term contributors to the cardinal rotation. here's his list of the leading la russa-developed starting pitchers, ranked by the number of starts they made for st louis:

morris 206
al benes 55
ankiel 41
si'tacchi 40
jimenez 31
aybar 27
bud smith 24

they were all just stopgaps, and in most cases were resorted to only out of desperation -- which is the case with reyes.

compare that to herzog's list:

cox 150
magrane 143
ken hill 95
lapoint 85
mathews 79
stuper 63
kepshire 46
horton 44

la russa's list of homegrown-pitcher games started totals 423 starts; herzog's (in fewer years) totals about 700. that's about 30 starts a season -- and in today's environment, what that really translates into is one $6m (or so) contract per season. ie, la russa requires, on avg, one add'l free-agent contract per year to build his rotation.

bottom line, if jose jimenez and bud smith are among the best examples that can be mustered to illustrate la russa's record w young pitchers . . . . it's a weak record.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just to beat a dead horse

it's even more lopsided when you consider postseason starts. herzog managed 28 postseason games for st louis, and 17 of them (61 pct) were started by a pitcher he'd developed for the organization.

la russa has managed 55 postseason games for stl, and only 15 (27 pct) were started by a pitcher he'd developed. and 11 of those starts were by one guy, matt morris; the other three were by ankiel (2), alan benes (1) and bud smith (1).

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oops i mean

the other four . . . .

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But you are missing my point

By saying he prefers veteran pitchers you make it sound like he has stunted the growth of youngs guys. Guys who were destined for stardom had it not been for Tony.

Again, there isnt any evidence of this. It isnt about how many young pitchers he used versus Whitey. A lot of this has to do with how good the farm system is and how the finances are.

I ask, again, name a young starter who has had his obvious star potential stunted by Tony...or a young pitcher who would have been an obvious upgrade to what the current team had.

I dont care about what his track record is versus Whitey. Its irrelevant. I want someone to prove to me that Tony keeps the "man down"...or just won't promote an obvious major league caliber pitcher.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

let me add

That its not up to Tony to develop good pitchers. He only comes into play once these guys are at AAA. To me the problem is the ORGANIZATIONS inability to develop good, young arms.

You make it sound like we have all these arms yet Tony is the one stopping them from being good, major league pitchers. Just because the talent isnt there in the minors isnt something Tony should be blamed for.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

la russa has had

much better talent to work with than herzog did. morris, benes, and ankiel were all first-round draft picks, and all came to the big leagues ranked among the top 50 prospects in all of baseball. ankiel was ranked #1 in all of baseball. haren was a 2d-round pick and a top 100 prospect. bud smith was a top 100 prospect.

herzog only had one guy like that in 9 years --- magrane. and, like la russa, herzog saw his pitchers flop the moment they left the st louis organization, too -- but not until after he had milked them for 2 to 6 season's worth of performance.

i think you're arguing that la russa has done an acceptable job, given the talent he's been provided. i just don't agree with you. he's been provided with pretty good talent, and he's only got 1 success story to show for it in 10 years: morris. that's a thin yield, no matter how one attempts to qualify it.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

p.s --- it is definitely

part of tony's job to integrate homegrown talent into the big-league roster. that's a huge part of his job. he's been reasonably good at that vis-vis position players, but not with the arms.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fair enough

But, again, I wont argue that Benes and Ankiel didnt work out. But my point is, they were given the chance. Tony didnt turn them away because they were young.

Thats all Im arguing. Tony will give a young pitcher a chance if he is good enough. Have they all been successful? No. But Ive never once seen an example of him holding someone back based solely on their age/experience.

Again, thats all Im arguing. While he hasnt been wildly successful with young arms, I dont find that he has held anyone back to prove this "veterans over rookies" point.

Are there any examples of guys who were mired in the minors, only to go someplace else and thrive?

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, there's haren

who was blocked in stl but last season finished top 10 in his league in innings, strikeouts, k/w ratio, and complete games. he's top 10 in all the same categories so far this year, as well as ranking 11th in era.

in partial defense of tony, the cardinals tried like crazy to give the athletics jason marquis instead of haren, but the a's insisted on haren. on the other hand, la russa probably could have put the kaibash on the deal if he had told jocketty: i want haren in my rotation next year, don't trade him. and if he had given haren a larger role down the stretch (and postseason) in 2004, instead of sticking with an obviously impaired matt morris, maybe danny would have proven his value and loomed as a better option heading into 2005. maybe he'd still be a cardinal. maybe la russa didn't give him his best chance to stick here.

aside from that, the only other example i can cite is jose rijo, who was blocked in oakland but thrived the moment he left --- and in a bit of poetic justice dominated the a's in the 1990 world series and won the mvp.

anthony reyes will be a big test for la russa. the kid obviously has sufficient talent to contribute to a big-league rotation, and the cards need a big contributor. if he makes the transition successfully, i'll be the first to give tony credit.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

Thanks for the spirited but civil discussion. I think Reyes is key for Tony. He has been injury prone already, which scares me.

I am excited about his potential of helping this team but I also understand that once teams see him more than once it wont be as easy. Plus, he has never thrown more than 200 innings, and that scares me.

I do think he can be a good #3 type guy who can dominate at times. This could be potentially very big for the team. I am usually conservative in my expectations so if he can give us a 4.00 ERA and 1.25 WHIP the rest of the way I will run with that.

Regarding LaRussa...he prefers winning over everything else. If your young and can help..great. He just hasnt really turned away much "young" help.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How much narrower can these columns get?

Also, La Russa prefers winning yes. But if he doesn't feel that young starting pitchers give him the best chance to win (just because he's prejudiced against young pitchers) then he would not use them very much.

Just because he wants to win doesn't mean he'll view a young pitcher as a reasonable option. In fact, that would make him less likely to take a risk because he's been winning regular season games with older pitchers for so long now.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

likewise beano

the point you raise is a worthwhile one --- if i didn't think so, i wouldn't have gone to such pains to outline an alternative point of view.

and no disagreement at all re expectations for reyes; i've endorsed your 4.00/1.25 benchmarks before, and i think they're realistic. but hell, we went into last year's playoffs with a #2 starter who had a 3.60 era / 1.40 whip, and our #3 (morris) was 4.10 / 1.28. in 2004 our number ONE (williams) was 4.18 / 1.32.

so 4.00 / 1.25 would be just fine in a #2 guy, and it is a conservative projection. there's reason to hope reyes will pitch better than that.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have you looked at

Haren's minor league numbers? Kid had massive potential and was $6M-$7M cheaper than Mulder. And has been the better pitcher.

Hated the deal then. Hate it even more now.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 23, 2006 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've said before I was ecstatic

when the Cards traded for Mulder. I didn't think the price was too high.

With the benefit of hindsight, I was really wrong.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 23, 2006 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i remember

espn did one of those nifty half page things with mulders picture and him wearing a cards hat and saying the cardinals were world series bound with his addition. that was a good day.

2 years later things are a bit different.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beano...

There were a lot of voices at the time of the trade that were VEHEMENTLY against it---including mine!!

I don't remember which site they were posted to, but I'll try to dig up some of my comments from that period----I remember thinking that we'd made a HUUGE mistake, especially since I really like all three players we lost, and Mulder was coming off a horrendous half season while his peripherals had been trending down for three straight seasons...

by salvomania on Jun 23, 2006 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was vehemently anti-Mulder, too,

I wouldn't have traded Barton OR Haren for him, let alone Barton, Haren and an ace reliever, even if Mulder's peripherals were where they were at the beginning of 2004.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 23, 2006 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely

I preferred Haren to Mulder back then, and I obviously do today.

I had a hunch then that those two guys would be similar pitchers in 2005, and they were. You could even give Haren the slight edge.

This season, it's no contest. Haren has been the better pitcher, and for about $13 million less.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 23, 2006 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

any

chance they'll trade back for him?!!!Please Mr.beane take back your junk.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 23, 2006 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

See my post

below concerning Albert...

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't say I'm giving up...

...on Mulder just yet. Something happened to him second half of 2004 (?) injury wise and they haven't been able to figure it out since. I think eventually he has to heal and get back to form. He's too good a pitcher with too good a record to completely fall apart. The odds of that happening are the same as Reyes turning into Ankiel.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2006 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

uh, here's a really good example

remember Scott Rolen wincing in pain last year after being rushed back (and misdiagnosed) from his shoulder injury?

that particular incident has been discussed on this site lots of times, for good reason.

Cardinals Diaspora

by VanRam on Jun 23, 2006 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just going to put this out there....

For the record, I do NOT think trading Reyes is a good idea. However, after last nights outing by Reyes, teams looking to trade their big names (ie Washington) might being putting Walt on speed dial.
Just the a thought, just for a second, just to see how it feels.

Freezing in Wisconsin.

by WiscCard on Jun 23, 2006 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

reyes for

miguel cabrera or carl crawford is about the only deal id be willing to pull the trigger on. reyes is older than both those guys and they sure would be incredible additions to our offense.

reyes for soriano is a no go, 29 years old and DYING to be a free agent and get the biggest deal he can. i dont want to sacrifice our best young pitcher for a rental player.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love the

Wedding Crashers reference.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 23, 2006 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just

the tip.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just noticed

that Carp is leading the Majors in ERA again. Let's hope he lowers it a little more tonight...

In Nepal the villagers call me 'Kin-tan-tee', which means 'noble man who is loved by many animal...'

by iron duke75 on Jun 23, 2006 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

what an

incredible job of signing carp when he left toronto. bet no one thought hed turn out to be this good.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Games 1 & 2

reminded me of the old Drew Carey bit, where he talks about the pitchers for the late 80's Cleveland Indians. They'd just say, "Whadda ya want, a triple?", then throw it into the outfield corner, just to keep it simple.

Seriously, I think one of the problems with LaDunc's philosophy for pitchers is that they want groundballers so they can increase the likelihood of getting a double play. Listen up, guys, you can only get a DP if you let a baserunner on in the first place. Keep the batters off the basepaths to begin with and the hurler can get the opposition out any way he wants.

Our current "rope-a-dope" gameplan only works if you have the goods to pull it off. Otherwise, you just get beat up.

by Solanus on Jun 23, 2006 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Albert

I just keep going back to last year's Rolen debacle with my feelings about Pujols being back so soon. I forget where I read or heard it, but someone said right after he was DL'd, that this is the type of injury where the player can feel like he's ready to go when he's really not(Woody Williams anyone?) Despite last night, it has not been the offense that has been the problem, and rushing him back can only lead to disaster, IMO.

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

But most impressive...

Was that after Thome parked Reyes fastball north of the border, he came back just as agressive the rest of the game. He wasn't tentative, he still threw the fastball, even after another on sent Taguchi to the track. Most impressive. At times like that, we can ask ourselves WWMD? What would Marquis do?

And Gooch got shafted twice in the eighth. I thought the ground ball was fair. If called correctly, Pujols is up with 2 on rather than leading the ninth. Was it just me? Was it foul?

Here's what I don't understand about the way we hit in the ninth. We know Jenks has that nasty breaking ball, so they gotta be sitting on a fastball, especially with nobody on. While 3 digits is a quick pitch, all in the lineup should be able to get around on one and put it somewhere. He threw good fastballs to everyone. I would think they would be just waiting for one.

by dspeer on Jun 23, 2006 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh

that ball was fair he played it.We got screwed 2 times once on the foul and then the check swing.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 23, 2006 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yup, yup

at that point i was screaming at the tv. i really wanted the win for our young gun last night. fantastic effort.

by Schnake on Jun 23, 2006 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you meant Mulder...

..Marquis would realize he doesn't have his best stuff, but still keep pitching like he does. He'd go out there, grind it out, but not really do anything but eat innings.

Mulder would start throwing BP fastballs and flat curveballs. Midways through the 4th, he'd put his glove on his head and sit down on the mound, kicking the ball towards homeplate.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2006 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I felt completely different watching the game

because Reyes was consistently ahead in the count. It's funny what a difference that makes. I felt that I was anticipating a good pitcher's duel, instead of sitting on the edge of my seat hoping that the ball would be hit toward someone.

And man. I love watching Jenks. I'll watch hte end of Sox games just for him. I guess everyone loves that heat.

You gotta like stories like that. Pluck a nobody out of someone else's system for peanuts, next thing you know he's throwing 100 mph in the playoffs.

by sdrone on Jun 23, 2006 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the best medicine

http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/archive/dugout6-20-06.html

by effin fisk on Jun 23, 2006 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Buster Olney's ESPN.com Blog

You need to be an "Insider", but here is the link:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20060623

He says that given Mark Mulder's mysterious injury that Walt should be looking for a pitcher and guy that makes a lot of sense (in Buster's opinion) is Mark Henrickson of Tampa Bay.

Here is his ESPN.com player card:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6978

He's not a power arm at all, but he fits into the Woody/Chuck Finley mold.

What say you folks?

by bgh on Jun 23, 2006 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

there has

to be a better option out there. maybe we could get someone from the angels, they are stacked in the rotation. maybe kelvim escobar? cant imagine it would take a ton to bring him over.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Angels aren't a bad idea...

...but the Angels just signed Escobar for a big 3 year contract. He's not going anywhere. A possibility might be Jeff Weaver though. He's a strikeout pitcher with upside. Just signed a big contract but hasn't pitched all that well this year and has fallen out of favor. Might be a bargain with his younger brother tearing up the minors (and majors when he's up).

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 23, 2006 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

jeff weaver

walks a lot of batters, i think. he has pitched a tad better lately, probably because he is barely hanging onto a starting job, but i think he too signed a huge deal with the angels. i would rather stay way from this weaver. now, jered is a different story...

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he signed a

one year, $8 million contract, not exactly huge.

I like him more than most of the pitching options being bandied about, because he used to have ace potential and at the very least he's proved to be a solid pitcher during 2004 and 2005. But he'd certainly cost a little more than Hendrickson, even though the D-Rays are insane.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 23, 2006 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just a

rental. cant give up too much for him, im sure the angels wouldnt ask for too much just to clear a spot for jered to get back up to the majors.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols back early?

GULP!!! From the post dispatch site:

"I wasn't sure about (Pujols') legs, but he ran yesterday and was feeling good," La Russa said. "Barry (Weinberg) wanted to wave it off but I wanted to be sure to go on record. I told Walt (Jocketty), 'I'm watching him. I talked to him. I think he should play. He wants to play. Barry wants to be more cautious, but I take responsibility.'"

by sdesserman on Jun 23, 2006 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bernie & Walt

From Miklasz -- his summary of his radio interview with Jocketty this a.m.:

jocketty says he made, not La Russa, the final decison on activating Pujols.
more than anything, jocketty said, Mulder needs time to regroup mentally. But thinks he has a tired arm.
Looking for an outfielder.... will settle for a short-term solution. wants a quality hitter.
all quiet on the trade front; making calls -- teams not ready to do anything yet. thinks it's tougher to deal now; revenues are up and more teams are holding onto players rather than dumping contracts.
excited by Reyes -- Reyes was untouchable, anyway. But will not trade him.
Reyes, Jocketty believes, will be in rotation rest of the season. STL rotation.
Jocketty says Cardinals need to start going with young starters as they develop. He's optimistic about what they have (pitchers) in farm system. Have to give them an opp.

That's just a quick recap....

--B

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 23, 2006 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is very encouraging

Thanks for the update!

by dccardsfan on Jun 23, 2006 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not that I don't believe Walt,

but he has said certain players were untradeable in the past and ended up trading them anyway...

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that would

really suck. like i said earlier...miguel cabrera or carl crawford are all i see being worth giving up anthony reyes for. oh, and throw david wrights name in there even though we have a better chance of acquiring a-rod for reyes straight up.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'd rather have wright than a-rod

better numbers right now, not a prima donna, about 25 million cheaper, and younger (moving up instead of down).

by kindred on Jun 23, 2006 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The final two bullet points

are very encouraging.

I will side with lboros in that I am skeptical as to how successful TLR/DD can or will be in integrating homegrown pitching talent into the rotation.

I think they have been more successful in integrating pitching talent in the bullpen, but the rotation is another story.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 23, 2006 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

VEB fave: Jaime Garcia

From the official site: "Left-hander Jaime Garcia, who has emerged as a prospect to watch this year, was promoted from low Class A Quad Cities to high Class A Palm Beach."

Don't know if anyone else caught it, but he'll also be pitching in the futures game during all-star weekend. Good chance to see him toss a couple...of pitches.

by sdesserman on Jun 23, 2006 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Reyes and Pujols

I dunno if I can add more but damn... this kid can pitch. Nothing he threw last night was straight. Everything had late breaking movement on it and he was making the best line up in baseball look silly. Just standing at the plate watching strike one after strike one. Reyes is here to stay and thank the baseball gods for that.

A few thoughts on Pujols. Remember a few years ago with the elbow? Al did what he had to to play not not get hurt. I think I trust the decision to bring Al back early in light of his previous elbow issues. I think Al can handle it... and I am sure he probably wont get hurt again... I hope

by BigMac545 on Jun 23, 2006 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

true but

a back strain is a bit different than an elbow injury. look how little it took to cause this injury in the first place, now if it isnt fully healed think about how just one tiny move could cause it to flare up again.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

It's not that lack of power was our problem while Pujols was out. It was quite the opposite actually. It was a problem with pitching.

Bringing Pujols back isn't going to solve that problem. And I'd rather let him sit an extra week or two rather than have him come back at less than 100% and at a higher risk of injury.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols' Return

As I said yesterday in a rather lenghty post I think Pujols' return will effect the pitching staff as well as the line up. I'll briefly sum up my post from yesterday...

"I think Albert means more to this team than anyone is giving him credit for. Do you think that it is just a coincidence that the Pitching started to crap out when Pujols went on the DL? I don't think it is at all. I think that it is more likley that the Pitchers think that they have to be too fine, too good in the absence of Albert. I think they might be changing their approach knowing that Albert won't be there to knock a game winning 3 run dinger off of Brad Lidge with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. Keep this in mind brothers... Albert has had over 10... TEN... game winning hits this season. From a mental standpoint that is huge for a pitcher. Knowing that you have a guy that can... (Al is still hitting over .500 w RISP) and more than likley will come thru in the cluth can make a big difference. I think Al coming of the DL will have a profound effect on the pitching staff as well as the line up."

I don't think they made this surprise move because of the line up... as we all know we hit just fine without our MVP. I think they broguht him back early because the mental lift that if offers everyone... specifically the Pitching staff.

by BigMac545 on Jun 23, 2006 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

They brought them back because he wouldn't stop asking to be in and they eventually said threw their hands up and said "Fine!"

The risk just isn't worth it. If he injures himself again how does not waiting a week help us. Oh, we won 2 more games now because of it. But what about the 4-6 weeks he'd be out again.

It's a question of a known 1-2 week loss vs. a potential 4-8 week loss in the second half of the season. I just don't see how it seems reasonable to risk that.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair

You have no idea whether the risk is worth it or not nor does anyone on this board.

You're not a doctor, and you haven't been involved in this case, nor have you watched Pujols work out.

by sdrone on Jun 23, 2006 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

doesnt mean

we cant contemplate all possible scenarios, good or bad. that is sort of the point to these blogs/comments/message boards...

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're right

And I'll likely be proven wrong. I doubt that Pujols is going to hurt himself again.

But there is lots of information that we don't have access to on these boards and we still second guess the decisions that management makes.

The point is that we do know these things:

a) when someone strains their oblique, if they don't take enough time off and they come back and strain it again, it's much worse. Said by everyone at the beginning of the injury.

b) Pujols doesn't like to sit out, even when he's injured. He pushes to get put back in the lineup as soon as possible, even if it's harder on his body. Said by everyone at the beginning of his injury.

c) The other players on the team had all stepped up their offense in the past 2 weeks mitigating much of the damage that not having Pujols in the lineup would have caused. Says everyone now, after Pujols has been out a bit.

What I know I don't know is:

a) What is the percentage risk that Pujols will injure himself by playing now

b) How severe his strain really was in the first place

c) Do La Russa and management have a way to quantify the benefit they feel they'll get from having Pujols in the lineup. If yes, did they decide that the benefits outweigh the risks?

Clearly management is in a better place to make these decisions. I'm just debating whether or not this 'edge' that we would get from just having Pujols name in the lineup is worth the risk of him getting injured again. I'd just rather them be safe then sorry, that's all.

If they know there's not much chance he'll aggravate the injury and make it worse, then fine. Put him in. The fact that they made Jocketty approve it and that La Russa said, "it's on me" makes me believe that there is still some risk involved.

If that's the case then I'm not sure the reward outweighs the risk.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One day

weinberg's comment was that he thought albert should sit for one more day, even though he basically did game situations in practice. if his recommendation was a few days or a week or whatever i'd be really worried. one day...weinberg is just being cautious to cover his a$$.

by dmb60614 on Jun 23, 2006 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Several things

Although they didn't get much of anything for Gathright, the D-Rays are notorious for wanting a king's ransom for all of their players. Maybe that's changed with new ownership, but there is a track record.
Hendrickson's record is fairly decent and he's one of the few really decent pitchers Tampa has, but they got him as a castoff and their management would probably be fairly happy getting a decent ROI. I think we could get him rather easily. Do I think he's a significant upgrade over our current batch of arms? Mulder, if he can't get healthy: yeah. Marquis, the good version of his bi-polar personality: nah. Marquis, the evil version: yeah. Ponson, if he can't get into shape (and maybe if he does, miracle of miracles): yeah.
Anybody notice that last night's game was the first CG of the year for the Cards, albeit an 8-inning job?

by Solanus on Jun 23, 2006 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually

JP Howell wasn't a bad pull for Gathright, given that Joey McNopop sucks. In any other organization, where he wouldn't have been thrown in the majors so soon, Howell'd be a Wainwright-before-the-season caliber prospect, or better.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 23, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

FYI

no suprise here but reyes is the listed pitcher on the offcial site for tuesdays game against the indians.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 23, 2006 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

terrific news

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my boy

Tankersley pitched eight innings of shutout ball last night with nine K's.

Since May 1 he has a 2.99 ERA, 1.183 WHIP and 56 K's in 69.1 innings (12 starts). He's not on the 40-man roster but I would prefer him to start over Ponson.

But he has struggled a few times in the bigs so he may just be a AAAA guy. But it is nice to see him pitch well in Memphis.

to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.

by beanocook on Jun 23, 2006 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

wasnt he

with the royals when he struggled in the bigs? i can forgive him for that one, even the greatest pitchers would struggle with that namby-pamby lineup the royals call an offense backing them up.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tank

Tankersly came up with the Padre's. He was one of the more highly touted pitchingprospects at the time and he kind of flopped. He then moved to KC. In fact every big league appearance he has had was with the Fathers...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tankede01.shtml

by BigMac545 on Jun 23, 2006 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i am with you there

i'd rather see wainwright start than tankersley . . . . but i'd rather see tankersley than ponson. by a long shot.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Id rather

see Tank McNamara than Ponson at this point...

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 11:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

or even

frank the tank is an upgrade.

FRANK THE TANK! FRANK THE TANK! FRANK THE TANK!

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I bellieve this was touched on but....

Reyes' performance was very impressive last night, but for me, the most impressive aspect was his ability to rebound after the Thome bomb. He just got another ball from Yadi and proceeded to retire the next five hitters. Most of the other pitchers on our staff (all but Carp) would have most likely folded at that point. If last night did solidify Reyes' spot with the club, then he should be traded somewhere where he has a chance to play. He is a major league caliber pitcher not AAA. Hopefully he will be wearing a stiff-billed Cardinal hat for a long time to come.

"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on Jun 23, 2006 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Griemke

I dunno if any of you noticed... But KC Activated Zach from the 60 day DL and optioned him to AA. I dunno if KC would trade him but it seems like something that might be worth a look. His value has to be at an all time low with his "Personal problems" but If the price was right I think he would be worth the risk... then again I dunno if they would consider trading him or not.

by BigMac545 on Jun 23, 2006 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i think

he is only scheduled to make a few minor league starts and they expect him back in the majors by the all star break.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does

he even want to play for them or at all?He freaked earier this year did he make a complete recovery?

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 23, 2006 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tipping pitches??

Just saw this article at P-D:
-----
Was camera tipping off White Sox to pitches?
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
06/23/2006
CHICAGO -- If the Cardinals never solved Freddy Garcia in a 1-0 loss Thursday night, they may have settled a conspiracy.
The White Sox were 40-for-88 with 15 extra-base hits and 33 runs the first two games of the series. The outburst not only heightened suspicion that Mark Mulder wasn't sound, but also that the White Sox dugout may have been exercising gamesmanship.
During Wednesday's rout, the Cardinals dugout became convinced a center-field camera at U.S. Cellular Field was tipping pitches to the home team.
Signs were changed after the fifth inning, and the White Sox went four for 36 with one extra-base hit and one run after the switch.
"Let's put it this way," one Cardinals source said Thursday night. "They looked like they knew what was coming the first two nights. They looked like they had no idea tonight.
"You figure it out."
-----

Seems like the pitchers might have also had one or two things to do with that....

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 23, 2006 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

not only were signs changed

after the fifth, the pitchers were changed. . . . .

but if this makes the team feel better about itself, fine.

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Spin Cycle

Ha! The White Sox were cheating. How could we have not seen this? It's so obvious. Do we have former White House communications people working for the team? Because this spin is brilliant, right down to the anonymous source who leaks the story.

by bgh on Jun 23, 2006 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stealing signs

is cheating? Since when?

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 23, 2006 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mr.guillen

is kinda a piece of trash.I can't ever recall a manager who's as loud and just so hoosier than that guy.I wouldn't doubt the stealing of pitches because either Mulder just has lost it and Marquis or they knew what was coming.They looked helpless last night i remember a couple of times where they were just lundging at pitches thinking they were fastballs.

by sportsmanspark78 on Jun 23, 2006 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was joking to some friends that the White Sox...

...had to be stealing signs because no matter what the Cardinals threw, they knew it was coming. They were swing at everything with confidence they didn't deserve to have. So, I guess there may have been a little truth to my suspicions.

Yeah, pitch to contact doesn't work so well when the batter knows what is coming.

I wouldn't put it past Ozzie. Anyone that would go to a Madonna concert or some WNBA games wouldn't think twice about something like this.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2006 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the camera

was helping the Sox out against Mulder, how do you explain his last 5 or 6 starts? That's bullshit. I never knew TLR and Dunc were X-Files afficianados...

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 1:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mulder, X-Files, Totalitarian leader, etc.

I can't believe you don't see the connection. It's all there, man!

Just look at Bud Selig, he looks just like CSM.

Then again, Kris Benson isn't pitching for us, so there can't be a Deep Throat.

(hehe)

by Solanus on Jun 23, 2006 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As bad as Mulder has been...

...11 runs in one inning is just plain silly. Obviously, he could have just had a complete meltdown, but even with him out of there, they did still go on to score 9 more runs in that game.

Go back and check the logs. They were jumping on pitches early in the count. Confidence? Maybe. I'm almost tempted now to go back through and my dvd to see if they were giving signals from the CF scoreboard.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 23, 2006 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mulder

Sure, the Sox jumped all over Mulder - in the 3rd inning. The first time through the order, they did nothing (just like in all of his other recent starts.) You'd think that the tipping of pitches would have helped the 1st time through the lineup, too - like it supposedly did with Thompson, Ponson, etc.

I'll put more credence in the fact that the first time through the order the batters are expecting the old Mulder of the low 90's fastball. The 2nd time through, they're ready for his mid 80's crap, and they feasted on it.

I hate it when a team makes excuses for getting their butts kicked. Even if it was true, don't talk about it in the press - switch your signs and buzz a fastball at the head of a batter expecting a curveball. That will take care of it quickly.

by Robb on Jun 23, 2006 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Second camera issue this month?

I remember the game Mulder got jumped on in Milwaukee, La Russa said there was a dugout camera zoomking in on Duncan's book. Perhaps that explains two of the starts...

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story/?ID=168362&hubname=mlb
----------------------------------------------
The Cardinals covered the lens of the remote-controlled video camera near their dugout before the top of the fourth. It had focused on the team's scouting report. "That camera zoomed right down on Dave Duncan's book," said La Russa who had the power supply unplugged, too. "Why is it on our dugout and not theirs? That crosses the line."

by dspeer on Jun 23, 2006 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

la russa is also

the guy who wears dark glasses at all times in the dugout, because he thinks the other team can "read his eyes" . . . . . .

by lboros on Jun 23, 2006 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly..

I'm beginning to think TLR is too paranoid for his(and the team's) own good, and it trickles down to the players.

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

didnt the

sox have this arise last year? i thought i read something about teams noticing the centerfield camera was flashing a light on top quite often, different patterns for different pitches. i dont know, i THINK i heard that.

hah, i never knew that larussa thought they could "read his eyes". crazy coot.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was a Sox/Texas

game, I believe. I think it was last year. Buerhle was SURE that some window lights in a building viewable from home plate were changing or something like that.

by sdrone on Jun 23, 2006 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so the

sox thought texas was cheating? or vice versa?

what did they do, steal the rangers strategies?

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Sox thought Texas was cheating

They didn't really raise a big stink about it. It was 1 game, and they were on top of the division.

If it were the 1 game for us, I wouldn't think much about it. Mulder has been getting worse, and he had a meltdown. I kinda wondered about the fact that the relievers got slapped around, too, but the Sox are the kinda team that can murder you if you're not careful.

The second game, and that 4 for 36 run after that 5th inning - that makes me give some credence to this theory.

But oh well. Mulder will get some rest, and we should get to keep Reyes in the rotation.

by sdrone on Jun 23, 2006 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, it actually happened

I was watching the game on the FSN North (Milwaukee's station) and they cut to a shot with an upward view of Dave Duncan's book and then you see a hand come in the way and knock the book out of the picture and TLR staring at the camera with an "I'm gonna kick your ass" look. I figured something was up with that, and that it was kind of a bad deal to do that.

by BigdJC on Jun 23, 2006 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It seems to me that

Tipping is a more likely explanation that sign stealing. Except that explanation went out the window with the successive Ponson, Thompson, and Marquis meltdowns. It is hard for me to believe all four were tipping.

I've heard Izzy talk about how when he got to the Cards, someone, and I believe it was Edmonds told him that back when he was with the Angels, they had his pitches. I've also seen this discussed on Baseball Tonight. It had to due with his hand position in the glove before he would throw a curve or fastball.

But I was definitely a believer on Tuesday and Wednesday that somehow the Sox had some kind of insight into what was coming. I guess I just don't want to believe that Mulder and Marquis could really be that bad.

OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on Jun 23, 2006 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What I wrote on Dec. 20, 2004

Count me as a skeptic and naysayer on the Mulder for Calero/Haren/Barton. By taking on Mulder's contract AND deleting Calero (our best middle reliever); Haren (5th starter); and Barton (perhaps best 20-yr-old hitting prospect in all of baseball), we have essentially declared that we believe Mulder to be an "ACE", a staff anchor.

Sorry, but I just don't see it. The guy's essentially a hit-per-inning pitcher with middling K rates, coming off a truly awful half-season in which his inability to put together a decent showing in multiple outings against AL West also-rans torpedoed his team's stretch drive. Was he tired? Injured?
Who knows, but it's the Cardinals who are paying to find out.

I'd rather have the group of Haren, Calero and Barton than Mark Mulder, just by himself---right now, in 2005, when we have an opportunity to win, and ESPECIALLY for the long term.

by salvomania on Jun 23, 2006 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

if only

jock had read this before the trade went through!

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jock panicked...

After missing out on Tim Hudson. I don't think there was an objective analyst alive who thought this was a good trade for the Cards.

by svengali on Jun 23, 2006 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think I remember reading that too

n/t

by rob is back on Jun 23, 2006 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Time to Guillen hate...

I love to see these Guillen articles. I think the guy is effing crazy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=2496971
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2494929
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/offbase/060622

by dspeer on Jun 23, 2006 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i cant

hate guillen. he is batshit crazy but guillen-ball worked pretty well last year and this year.

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Right before the WS, all the attention was on him ... none of it on his players or the team.

He can take it and by being crazy none of the players have to worry about too much attention. All the reporters have to do is spend 5 minutes with Guillen to get a story.

by dontEATnachos on Jun 23, 2006 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Laynce Nix

News: Laynce Nix is on an eight-game hitting streak with Triple-A Oklahoma dating back to June 11. He is 10-for-30 (.333) with a double, home run and three RBI during the streak to raise his average from .262 to .274.

Analysis: It's safe to say that Nix is far away from having any Fantasy appeal. The Rangers have no plans to recall him and he should not be owned in any formats at this time.

anyone be willing to trade a single A or double A pitching prospect for him?

by lopey986 on Jun 23, 2006 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

maybe, but not a good one

n/t

by DanUpBaby on Jun 23, 2006 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols injury...

Here's a thought that I'd like to get some opinions on: Albert has been swinging a bat, and taking infield practice this week and generally getting ready to play. Who's decision was that. (It doesn't sound like it was Tony's)Is it that much worse to swing a bat and play in the field in practice vs. a game? I think practice can actually have a further negative impact than game situations (more repetition, longer time on the field). So if Albert was going to work hard no matter what the trainers said (a distinct possibility), why not let him play?

I know the line is "the club should have held him back", but Albert doesn't strike me as someone who heeds absolutely everything the organization says (not in regards to team play, mind you, but from things that he feels are his decisions).

It may be a crazy scenerio, but one that I think is entirely plausable. Maybe the only decision Tony had was whether or not he played in a game, not how much work he did before the game. I'm sure the trainers couldn't hold Albert back. I think Tony's got one of the stiffest spines in the game as far as managers go. He's always had the trust and confidence of his star players (it's one of his strengths).

There just aren't many (any) managers that can tell a team playing star in Pujol's zenith what to do when he is dead set against it. Crossing a star with that much respect from a team is one way to lose a team...

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 23, 2006 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

According to

what Jock said on Bernie's show this morning, he made the decision to activate Pujols, not Tony. Of course, he could just be covering for TLR in case AP is re-injured...

by cardsrul on Jun 23, 2006 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

For the record...

I think Pujols stubborn streak, drive and competitiveness is his greatest strengths and reasons why he is an all-world player. Not a good fielder? Gold glove caliber firstbaseman. Slow foot speed? 16 stolen bases last year. I don't think Pujols COULDN'T have attacked this injury like everything else he's tackled (with everything he has to beat the projections). In essence, it could be the worse type of injury for him (if things turn out badly). If things turn out well, we will be talking about how amazing Pujol's injury recovery time is (just like we did with the arm injury a few years ago, and just like we do with everything else he does).

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 23, 2006 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs