Game 63 Open Thread: June 13, 2006

perfect world box

has been updated, btw

by lboros on Jun 13, 2006 6:19 PM EDT reply actions

tonight

Come on Carp! Regain that Cy Young form!

Cardinals Diaspora

by Ryan Van Bibber on Jun 13, 2006 6:56 PM EDT reply actions

I have a feeling

that Carp is gonna be filthy tonight...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 6:58 PM EDT reply actions

Yadi hitting 6th?

I know he's be hot... but yikes.

by BigMac545 on Jun 13, 2006 7:04 PM EDT reply actions

good splits vs lhp

this year he's hitting .259 vs them, with a .355 obp . . . last year he hit .309 / .339 / .409 vs them.

by lboros on Jun 13, 2006 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Is it me

Or has Young Dunc looked a little too tentative this callup? He reminds me of Ben Grieve, and not the good Ben Grieve.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 7:27 PM EDT reply actions

I've never been a hater about the TV crew, but Dan and Al just brought up the idea of trying to aquire a pitcher instead of a big bat, and both of them pretty much sneered at the idea, as if it was the dumbest thing they'd ever heard.

Yeah, because our ERA has been so low lately and all of our starting 5 are locked up for years to come.

I agree that the ERA should correct itself a bit over the course of the season, but I'm all for picking up a power pitcher. Why would the TV guys act like this is such a foreign idea?

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 7:28 PM EDT reply actions

because

there's a power pitcher in AAA?

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm on the Reyes/Wainwright bandwagon

but I'm not sure it's gonna happen. I wonder how long before Tony comes around.

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Are we comfortable with Reyes in the playoffs?

I'd love to see Reyes pitch in the playoffs, but I'm not comfortable with putting that much pressure on him yet.

As for FSN, I just wish I could get my feed.

by rob is back on Jun 13, 2006 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions

how comfortable are we

with marquis ponson or suppan?

i can't answer your question re reyes. need to see him pitch before i can form an opinion

by lboros on Jun 13, 2006 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Well

I didn't state that right and tried to correct it below, but I'm not comfortable with any of them! My point is that we need another ace in addition to Reyes, hopefully (Preferably Willis, as you suggested last night.) Then we can choose between Reyes, Mulder, Marquis and Suppan to fill out the playoff rotation.

If Reyes had been given more starts and was still pitching this well, then I'd feel differently, but I won't believe that TLR is ready to commit to Reyes until he's actually done it. Until then, I'm advocating adding another ace to the rotation, if at all possible.

by rob is back on Jun 13, 2006 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Does anyone read the posts on here?

lboros, can you look up super two status and please explain for us all (cause I don't know what it means) so that we can fully understand the financial factors keeping Reyes in the minor league. Of course they could use Reyes now, but do you want to have to pay him near 8-10 million extra a 1 to a 1 and 1/2 earlier than we need to? Is it worth mortgaging the future now for a slightly better chance at a win every 5 days? Or does it make more sense to bring him up so that he won't be Super Two eligible and save a boat load to get the precious "impact bat" or "power pitcher" down the line that I keep hearing so much about?

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Not only that, but who are you taking out..

...of the rotation?

Carpenter? - No.
Marquis? - A win this week and he's tied for the lead in NL Wins.
Mulder? - Yeah, cause that's going to a)make him want to resign b)increase his trade value
Ponson? - Seeing as he JUST lost his 1st game, that doesn't seem prudent.

So I guess we are sending Soup to the bullpen? That makes sense, I guess.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions

I'd forgotten about his super two status

Does service time include the playoffs? If so, then I'm guessing that the window is sometime in early August, after the trade deadline has passed. That means Reyes will have two months to acclimate himself to pitching in the major leagues. If Reyes is promoted, there's a good chance that we'll no longer have Mulder and so if he turns out to be the next Ankiel, then we're stuck with Carp, Ponson, Marquis and Suppan for the playoff roster.

This is why I think we need another ace for the rotation.

by rob is back on Jun 14, 2006 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm always comfortable

with a good pitcher in the playoffs. But then, I was comfortable with He Who Shall Not Throw a Curveball in the playoffs, too.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Let me clear that up

I'd love to see Reyes pitch in the playoffs, but I don't like relying on him to be our second ace. I'm comfortable with Carpenter facing anybody, but what about Mulder and Reyes (should Reyes even get the chance.)

Are we comfortable with Carpenter, Mulder and Reyes/Marquis/Suppan/Ponson going against these guys?

Mets:

Glavine (3.06 era)
Martinez (2.94 era)
Bannister? (2.89 era)

Astros:

Clemens (?)
Oswalt (3.11)
Pettitte (5.81)

Dodgers:

Lowe (2.83)
Penny (2.34)
Tomko? (5.20)

Tigers:

Rogers (3.46)
Verlander (3.32)
Robertson? (3.50)

White Sox:

Contreras (2.62)
Buehrle (3.21)
Vasquez? (4.19)

Red Sox:

Shilling (3.81)
Wakefield (3.93)
Beckett (5.26)

Yankees:

Mussina (2.76)
Johnson (5.63)
Wright? (4.44)

Cardinals:

Carp (2.83)
Mulder (5.20)
Reyes (2.25 in 2 games)
Ponson (3.54)/Marquis (4.88)/Suppan (5.35)

We're obviously not going to make up for our lack of power pitchers with a strong batting lineup, as we have, to some extent, in previous years, even if we add someone like Soriano. I like the idea of possibly adding Reyes to the playoff rotation, but I don't like having to count on him to fill the spot Mulder's supposed to be filling out.

by rob is back on Jun 13, 2006 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Then I guess you'd better

get used to being uncomfortable.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 13, 2006 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Are you saying that Reyes

will pitch in the playoffs? If so, then doesn't he need to come up soon to get some more experience?

If he does come up soon and continues pitching great, then I'm quite comfortable with him in the playoffs. But if he cools off after being promoted and the trade deadline has passed, then we're stuck with him and probably without Mulder as well, since Reyes probably won't be promoted until either Mulder, Suppan, Marquis or Ponson is traded and Mulder seems the most likely of the four to be traded.

by rob is back on Jun 14, 2006 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions

Wait wait, I got the correct answer

Mets: yes Bannister? Puh-lease, do you think his non-tested numbers make him scary? I don't.

Astros: It's not about their pitching, it's about our mental incapacity to play well against them. Suppan has pitched a gem or two against Houston in the playoffs, and it's more about hitting and trying not to let Houston take advantage of that joke of a baseball park. So short answer: Yes

Dodgers: Oh yes yes, please god yes. I have no respect for anyone beyond Lowe and Penny in that rotation, and one of them will have to lock horns with Carp.

Tigers: I would be worried if they were still in it by the WS, because it would mean their pitchers had to pitch well, but I wouldn't worry about it, because their youth and inexperience will probably defeat them much earlier than the WS.

ChiSox: Can anyone be comfortable with the idea of outpitching them after last year's masterpiece in the playoffs. I think your best approach is to outhit them, and look at working pitch counts and getting into the bullpen because no one will outpitch that staff.

Boston: Ha ha, I thought you were serious... oh wait you are. Schilling will be tough, and therefore don't start your ace against him, just beat up on the losers in that lineup (their the ones that aren't called Schilling)

Yankees: They won't be there. Unless Torre is giving them plenty of age-defying concoctions, this team will barely make it to the playoffs injury free, and then when they get there A-Rod likes to choke the big sausage. No more Yank mystique.

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions

While I agree with alot of it...

...you don't have to be so smug.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions

ditto that

re the smugness. robdouth, it's grating. drop the pretense that you're smarter than everybody else who posts here, because you aren't.

by lboros on Jun 14, 2006 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions

Not smug at you guys

Just trying to change it up from all the whining. For god sakes, we've been the best team in the NL over the past 2 years, and even with the Astros going to the WS last year, we are the ones with the bullseye, it's about time we start acting like it instead of ringing our hands when something bad comes up. All I heare is whining and new clever nicknames describing Juan as bad. For everything that has happened we are still in first place. If a Pittsburgh fan or a Tampa Bay fan came over here, they'd think we were all a bunch of cry-babies. Especially given that we were ragging Izzy even after a perfect month and a relief pitcher of the month for May. Maybe we just expect to much greatness and so we only focus on the negative, but the smugness is as a Cards fan, not directed at you guys, but directed at the league because a little positive energy and confidence could take this team a long way. It would keep the fans from booing Izzy because he isn't Rivera or Gagne and doesn't meet a standard of perfection. It would keep them thinking: "holy crap" we are in first place with a third of our team's run production on the shelf? I have two other guys I know that regularly monitor the site. One will probably keep doing it no matter what because he's a Cards fan, but even he said he couldn't stand all the damn negativity. My other friend (if you can call a yankees fan a friend) said he thought it was too whiny, and that's from a damn Yankees fan who will whine because they haven't won a championship every other year. Granted I think it's hypocritical but it did make me think: "hey, we have a solid foundation and a good team. Yeah we have some problems, but there is no team in the NL that has pulled it altogether and looks that much more solid at all aspects of the game than we do. The White Sox and Tigers in the AL are solid, and they worry me, but if we are talking playoffs, then we are talking WS before we meet them, and even getting there would be one hell of a feat for this team that everyone is castigating. I think if they find themselves winning this division by the end, and they find a way to make it through the playoffs, then TLR deserves manager of the year nods. Sorry to come off smarmy, but please think about how all the fretting and hand-wringing comes off. I'm out and I'll leave y'all alone to wallow in the sad state that is first place.

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions

So you're advocating what exactly?

That our rotation is fine and that I shouldn't be so worried?

by rob is back on Jun 14, 2006 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions

That bringing up Reyes...

...sounds like a good move, but has the possibility of having a big backlash since who to send out isn't clear cut...unless of course you want to ditch Soup...but even he pitched well in the playoffs for the Cards.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Honest question

Do you think Reyes will be promoted without trading away another starter first? I don't see it happening, but that's why I'm asking what you think.

by rob is back on Jun 14, 2006 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions

Craig Wilson

Ok, so maybe he beat that infield dribbler out, but there's only room for one player with weird facial hair in St. Louis as far as I'm concerned, and I'm quite happy with Scott Spiezio.

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 7:32 PM EDT reply actions

BLUE JAYS NEED PITCHING...

ACCORDING TO ROBOTHAL'S LATEST...

I COULD SEE MARQUIS FOR CATALANATTO - HE CRUSHES RIGHTIES, AND WOULD BE AN IDEAL #2 HITTER WITH HIS .420 OBP!!!

by TOLAXOR on Jun 13, 2006 7:44 PM EDT reply actions

Oliver Perez

Lucky for him his daddy is on the disabled list.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 7:47 PM EDT reply actions

Question

Has anyone else noticed that when the Cardinals starting pitching is excellent, one of the following happens:

a) either the opposing pitchers step up to the level of competition; or

b) the Cardinal lineup can't seem to get runs.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson

by secretweapon on Jun 13, 2006 7:49 PM EDT reply actions

Yes!

Isn't it frustrating?

by rob is back on Jun 13, 2006 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Is anyone else watching

the FSN Pittsburgh feed? I swear I just saw a red laser light shining on Carp's face and cap while he was pitching to Bay...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 7:50 PM EDT reply actions

Is that signature

from the movie "Dragnet"?

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 14, 2006 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes it is

Love that movie. :-)

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 14, 2006 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions

Juan

He must not've realized there was someone in scoring position, because he can't hit in those situations.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 7:53 PM EDT reply actions

Nice hustle

by Rolen on the dying quail. Cue shot from Brekky brought him home.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 7:53 PM EDT reply actions

I thought he was absolutely nuts to go there,

But I guess I forgot that he was Scott Rolen, and he hasn't made a baserunning mistake since he thought his prom date was signalling for the french kiss. The Cardinals really seem to attract good baserunners, Suppan aside.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Awww, c'mon baby...

I thought I was supposed to take the extra base!

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Did I just jinx him?

I think he tried to feel up Jason Bay.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Maybe

Got the run home at least...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Jebus guys

Can't you give any credit when a guy gets a run home. Christ almighty.

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions

Who wasn't giving him credit?

I only mentioned it at all because I had worshipped at the altar of his baserunning ability 20 minutes before he got picked off.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 14, 2006 6:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Bases loaded, 1 out

Big opportunity here. Come on young Duncan...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:00 PM EDT reply actions

Too bad

he swung at ball 6...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions

duncan vs. lefties

why does duncan get to start vs. lefties while j.rod has to sit? if speez cant start the typical larussa move would be to put luna at first.

by dmb60614 on Jun 13, 2006 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions

and 7 and 8.

He didn't get a real strike his whole at bat.

by SleepyCA on Jun 13, 2006 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Dunc has struck out...

... with the sacks jammed at least three times since being called up. each time it was ball four, and each time it was less than two outs. he does well to work the count, but then he assumes the pitcher is gonna put one on a tee for him, and he swings no matter where it is.

i hope that can be corrected.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 8:04 PM EDT reply actions

It's just youth...

...the fact that he is working the count to full is good. I think for him, it's the fear of looking at strike 3 with the sacks full that is driving that.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions

speaking of full counts...

Carp's pitched into several of them tonight himself. Now if he'd just stop giving up so many runs...

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions

terrible

AB by Duncan. Luna crushed it, but too bad it was right at Bay.

dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas

by Neth on Jun 13, 2006 8:05 PM EDT reply actions

Hope we don't regret

only getting one run out of all of that...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:06 PM EDT reply actions

Hey, atleast we aren't as bad as the Yankees...

....in the 3rd inning, they got a favorable base running call to get Cabrera on. Now, they've got 1 on with no outs.

Byrd's pitch count:

1 pitch - Jeter swings, slams it into CF.
....runners at 1st and 2nd, no out.

1 pitch - ARod pop up
....1 out.

1 pitch - Posada pop up
....2 out

1 pitch - Cano fly out
....3 out.

Way to go!

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:06 PM EDT reply actions

ha!

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Seven K's

for Carp through four...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:12 PM EDT reply actions

Rolen is, uh, Rollin'

He's all over the ball right now.

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 8:20 PM EDT reply actions

Rolen

Had raised his game since Prince Albert went down. Scary to think where they would be with hime in a 2-25 slump or something like that.

by titolandrumrules on Jun 13, 2006 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Dunc got a nice chunk of that ball...

...anyone think that with a little seasoning, he could turn into a solid MLB power hitter? In the 25-30s range? Like an Adam Dunn?

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:38 PM EDT reply actions

... nope.

Duncan hasn't managed to have a Dunn-like season in the minor leagues, let alone the bigs, and he's not exactly young for a prospect. I think he could kick around as a league average corner outfielder/first baseman for a while, but I think Russ Branyan or Cory Snyder with some plate discipline is the upside.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions

But take that with a grain of salt,

Because I'm not a big Duncan fan and I think he was the wrong callup.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions

agreed on both points...

... and i doubt he'll stay here until Pujols is back. at least, i hope not.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions

That would be nice

Interestingly, it seems that Dunn is currently persona non grata with many observers over at the Reds Reporter due to his "clutchlessness"...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions

While I love the Dragnet reference

Dunn had a game winning 3 run HR today. Interesting timing.

The ball landed on Highway 61 and was eaten by the giant snake. The pitcher that gave up the gopher ball was none other than Emil Muzz, badge-kisser.

by BozCardsFanSF on Jun 14, 2006 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions

11 Ks...

....how long will TLR let him go?

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:53 PM EDT reply actions

Now 12 K's

Ties his career best.

Carp is a beast...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions

13!

If TLR let him go all 9, he could potential strike out the sides and get 19 Ks.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions

that's probably it.

next it'll be Flores for a batter, Hancock for two fastballs (one ball, one strike), Wainwright for one curve (strike), and then Tyler Johnson for a slider. Then TLR'll only have Thompson and Izzy left for the last 4 outs. between them, they will walk 4 guys and give up two bloop hits and 3 crushed doubles.

cards lose.

man, i'm bored.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions

He's thrown 111 pitches....

....and his batting spot would only come up again if we got someone on. So...now it's up to Tony to dick another starter from a career night. He did this to Carp last time in Pittsburgh, throwing a 2 hitter going into the 9th.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions

On the other hand,

He'd thrown 111 pitches, and just recently came back from injury. Better to hold him out of a career night than to hold him back come playoff time.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Not watching on TV, how does carp's sac look?

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson

by secretweapon on Jun 13, 2006 8:53 PM EDT reply actions

Bursa Sac that is

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson

by secretweapon on Jun 13, 2006 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Should I be able...

...to see that?

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Sure, it taint the head and it taint the feet

It's in the middle.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson

by secretweapon on Jun 13, 2006 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions

I was gonna say

That was an interestingly phrased question.

Anyway, I presume his "sac" isn't bothering him too much given tonight's cruiseitude.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions

13 K's

New career best!

Atta boy Chris!

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 8:56 PM EDT reply actions

flat out FILTHY!

by craig3410 on Jun 13, 2006 8:56 PM EDT reply actions

Pitch Count

Does anyone know what Carp's is? ESPN says 111, CBS says 102

by jms8897 on Jun 13, 2006 8:58 PM EDT reply actions

111 is right

then again, the FSN crew wasn't matching up with the gamecast numbers earlier, so who knows. But I THINK 111 is right.

by effin fisk on Jun 13, 2006 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Carp is showing

those other 4 guys how it's done!

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jun 13, 2006 8:59 PM EDT reply actions

Well, if Carp stays in...

...he'll be up 5th in the 9th, meaning he could go CG.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:02 PM EDT reply actions

Tony...

...I hate you.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions

looper?

pitch count, i know i know. i woulda like to seen how many k's he can rack up...

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jun 13, 2006 9:05 PM EDT reply actions

That would have been a great idea...

right up to the walks because he was fatigued. The bullpen is the right call. How is it going to help the pen, if the right call is to go to them, and you won't. Talk about never giving them back their confidence.

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions

Looper?

Come on LaRussa. Very frustrating to say the least.

by Brownale on Jun 13, 2006 9:06 PM EDT reply actions

BTW

how many more at-bats until Rolen will qualify for statistics?

by Brownale on Jun 13, 2006 9:07 PM EDT reply actions

How on earth

can you look at a pitch like that for strike three?

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 9:08 PM EDT reply actions

Let's put it this way...

...at 111 pitches, with 13 Ks in the 8th, if it were Gibby....TLR would have had to pry that ball from his cold, dead fingers.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:08 PM EDT reply actions

The Deification Continues

Why is pitchers refusing to leave the ballgame the only cantankerous behavior that baseball fans believe a positive?

If Adam Dunn refused to be pulled for a defensive replacement in the ninth, would he be showing off his competitive fire, or would he be potentially hindering the team's chances and undercutting the manager's authority? At 111 pitches, with a guy who has a history of injuries, I'd go to the relievers too.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 13, 2006 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions

If you take Adam Dunn out of your lineup...

....until the 27th out is recorded, you are an idiot and deserve to be fired. If you put in a defensive replacement, that replacement can't play defense on balls hit over the wall. Thus, you've taken your best bat out. Didn't the Astros do something stupid like that in Game 5 of the NLCS last year?

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions

Dude did you even bother to read his post...

he said take him out in the ninth, as in at home with the lead, and only needing defense. You can say what you want about Dunn, but he's not clutch, and he strikes out a lot, also he makes Soriano look like a damn ballerina compared to Dunn's play in the field (Uh, that was supposed to mean Soriano looks good in the field, but I'm not sure that came across) Actually the manager would look like a damn fool for leaving Dunn in for a game when they are up 1 or 2 and only defense can get you the win. What happens if you get classic Dunn fielding and it costs you the game. Are you gonna use that "should get fired" line? It would sound real purty then.

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions

I read his post and my statement still stands..

...look at Game 5 of the 2005 NLCS. Astros pulled bats for defense and Albert hits one you can't play defense on. In the bottom of the 9th, who'd they have come up?

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions

Looked it up...

Astros pulled Biggio in the 8th inning for defensive substitutions. In the bottom of the 9th, would have come to the plate against Izzy. Instead, it was Tavarez, Viscaino and Burke.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Who was arguing about this?

The Dunn thing was just an example; I was only saying that acquiescing to a player's desire to stay in the game isn't always a good thing. When it comes down to a starter above his typical pitch count, in a low-leverage game, who had just come off of an injury--I'd rather see the relievers, no matter how much the pitcher wants to finish what he's started. And I don't care if it's Bob Gibson or Chris Carpenter up there.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 14, 2006 6:03 AM EDT up reply actions

Pujols is exception to the rule

You can't blame Garner for those moves. I'd have done the same thing in a heartbeat. You wouldn't dare say you predicted that comeback in the 9th. Come on, Lidge gets 2 outs, then even has a 2-strike count on Eck before giving up a hit that just squeezed its way through the infield, and Edmonds draws a walk. Even at that point, I bet Garner still felt pretty good (well, as good as an opposing manager can feel with Pujols representing the winning run).

by john vb on Jun 14, 2006 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions

What's the big deal?

After 111 pitches, it's time to come out, no matter how many dudes you've whiffed.

Had Carp been allowed to go further and then given up the lead, we'd be calling for TLR's head for not pulling him after 111 pitches.

Complete games are so overrated.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 9:13 PM EDT reply actions

Says who?

Carpenter threw how many complete games last year? Pitch counts are overrated. If a guy is on, strikes out the side without even blinking, what reasoning can you give for pulling him? Because he's reached a number you as a manager came up with in your head before the game? Obviously he wasn't scuffling out there. He mowed down their batters the previous inning. In fact, he struck out 5 of 6 batters in the last two innings.

I can understand if his spot came up in the order. I can understand if he gives up a hit, a run or a walk. I can't understand just pulling him in between innings because he's reached an arbitrary number.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions

I know some folks

don't buy the whole "pitch count" thing. I do wholeheartedly. I don't think TLR would come up with anything arbirtrarily, given his seemingly obsessive preparation.

You're right in that Carp was cruising. But he'd already gone well past his average PC, and in June against a last-place team, there's just no reason to extend a guy.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Pitch counts are overrated...

If you are Dusty Baker. Do you really want our pitchers following the Kerry Wood/Mark Prior career path of 3 trips a year to the DL? Baseball Prospectus did a rather exhaustive study of pitch counts that concluded that regularly going over 120-130 pitches is a pretty horrible idea if you want your pitchers to stay healthy long-term and effective in subsequent starts short-term.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1477

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1480

by mikedallas23 @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 13, 2006 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not talking about throwing him until...

....his arm falls off. But he had gotten through the last inning in 16 pitches. If he goes 130 pitches tonight, would that have been the worst thing? I dunno.

Apparently to TLR, his pitch count is 100 pitches, since that's what Carp is averaging this year. It's just frustrating that Tony cuts Carp off like this. I was at the last Pirates game he did it in. He had a 2 hit shut-out through 8 with 110 pitches thrown and he throws Izzy out there. Fine, that's Izzy's job, but I'm of the belief that if a guy is cruising, let him go until he runs into trouble.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions

hmmm maybe it's because

TLR is a hell of a lot smarter than any of us and realizes A) he's just back off the DL, B)you don't want to leave him out there until he starts to fall off, because that isn't good for anyone involved, C)because unlike some in here, TLR is playing for the playoffs and putting 130 every now and then, and pushing those extra innings out of a pitcher have a way of coming back in the end. Then everyone is wondering why Carp can't go on short rest and why he's lost his pop in the 5th inning of game 7. It's way to short-sighted. If this game had turned out a loss, it was still the right move.

Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 14, 2006 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions

For a manager that is 10-10 in postseason series

5 - 13 in World Series games

...I'd stay 'stop thinking about the playoffs'.

It was one game, I just think pulling him at that point wasn't the right move. Obviously most of you disagree. I just think that a guy who threw 7 complete games last year could have stretched it a bit and come back out in the 8th.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 14, 2006 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions

Why risk it?

You're playing a AAA team, it's June, and the aces of your biggest rival are Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo. If this is late October it's different, but 130 pitches can screw a guy up, especially when he averages about 100.

by DanUpBaby on Jun 14, 2006 6:05 AM EDT up reply actions

i agree...

... 7 solid, 13 Ks, Carp's 2nd start off of DL, and he's only averaged 102 pitches so far this year. no need to gas him now. save those extra pitches for Sept./Oct.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 9:14 PM EDT reply actions

if it were

5-0, then take him out. but i think i woulda left him in with 2-0...

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jun 13, 2006 9:15 PM EDT reply actions

Not me, man...

I'm just the opposite; let a fresh bullpen handle a two-run lead. It's what they're there for, right?

If it's 5-0, then I might extend a tired starter a little more.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions

tired arms

are more apt to get injured . . . . this was a no-brainer. 111 pitches, he's outta there. if it's october -- or september, and they're fighting for a playoff spot -- maybe i leave him in. but in june -- what's the upside?

by lboros on Jun 13, 2006 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions

There is no upside

After 111 pitches, there's no point in going any further. I was just hypothesizing.

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah, i wasn't

asking that specifically of you, 26th --- more of a gen'l question to the field.

by lboros on Jun 14, 2006 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Captain Ulcer (TM) Strikes Again! -nt-

by craig3410 on Jun 13, 2006 9:24 PM EDT reply actions

Brilliant game by Carp and Izzy craps up the joint

Figures.

by craig3410 on Jun 13, 2006 9:26 PM EDT reply actions

IZZY!!!

come on, is it too much to ask?

by Brownale on Jun 13, 2006 9:26 PM EDT reply actions

Apparently. nt

by craig3410 on Jun 13, 2006 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions

bad play by So...

... or it's still 1st and 2nd.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 9:27 PM EDT reply actions

Again...

how can you look at a pitch like that for strike three?

The 26th Man

by 26thMan on Jun 13, 2006 9:28 PM EDT reply actions

looked like we got a break to me

But you're right, he didn't protect the plate and paid for it.

by SleepyCA on Jun 13, 2006 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Hrabowsky said earlier...

... that Spiezio has a stomach flu now that involves vomiting. prolly why Dunc got the start against the lefty.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 9:29 PM EDT reply actions

didn't he throw a wp

right before the homer to griffey? . . . .

by lboros on Jun 13, 2006 9:29 PM EDT reply actions

Nice...

at least he got out of it.

by Brownale on Jun 13, 2006 9:30 PM EDT reply actions

I wasn't watching the game...

...but the Pirates radio guys said that Luna screwed the Cards in the 9th. Apparently they had a runner dead to rights on a great throw by Taguchi, but Luna was in la-la land 10 feet away from the bag.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:31 PM EDT reply actions

bad play by Gooch...

... he should've thrown the ball to 3rd (where the lead runner was going). instead, threw it to 2nd. Luna didn't know the trailing runner was coming, but it probably wouldn't've mattered. the throw beat the runner, but it wasn't close to the bag.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Why, the lead runner means nothing...

...the guy getting to second did. I just watched it on my PC...he should have been on the bag. He had Sanchez dead to rights.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions

throw wasn't close enough to the bag to get back..

...and make a tag.

but if Gooch throws to 3rd, then the lead runner stops at 2nd, and the DP is still in order.

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions

I just watched it again...

...and I don't know. Luna shouldn't have been where he was. What is he the cut for there? He caught the ball and Sanchez was still 4 steps from the bag.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2006 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Agree

But I think he was kind of surprised that So even threw the ball to him- you usually don't throw behind the lead runner like that. It wasn't very heads up on his part, but if he was expecting the ball to go to third it's probably very good luck that he even caught the ball...

by SleepyCA on Jun 14, 2006 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions

i dont think so

i mean, he was way off the bag, but the throw looked a little weak to me and might not have made it to the bag. i know he was trying to keep the dp possibility, but i think he should have thrown to 3rd.

dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas

by Neth on Jun 13, 2006 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Reds losing 4-3...

... in the 7th. Astros winning 3-0 in the 5th.

man, that Cards game sure was quick. shortest of the season?

by kindred on Jun 13, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions

Game time

was 2:22, not sure if it was the shortest of the year, but it was fast.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 13, 2006 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions

appropriate

that it should end on a K. this was "the strikeout game".

nice to see him pull through. i think we really needed a series with the pirates right about now. we seemed to be making a lot of good contact with the ball. maybe tomorrow night we can hit it a little harder, and the bucs can keep on fanning.

dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas

by Neth on Jun 13, 2006 9:32 PM EDT reply actions

Take Stock

OK, let's see we have survived the following so far:

LF sucks.
Albert hurt.
Jimmy hurt.
Carp hurt.
Izzy erratic.
Yawn's slow start.
Yadie's slow start.
Mulder's. slow start.
Everything else.

Yet, we are still in first place, and for the last 3 years have played our best baseball over the second half.

Maybe we are spoiled.

Go CARDS.

by patton044 on Jun 13, 2006 9:56 PM EDT reply actions

Brew Crew up 6-4 in the bottom of the 9th

Hayseed is on the mound...

Greetings Pagans! Don't forget your goat leggings!

by iron duke75 on Jun 13, 2006 10:16 PM EDT reply actions

Whew

once I stop laughing I'll finish the post.

Ok,

Juli Tavarez giving up the walk-off grand slam against the twinkies in the 12th after bosox took the one run lead in the top 1/2. izzy is doing bad things to my blood pressure, but I'm glad everyday that I don't see tavarez out in our pen.

by sdesserman on Jun 13, 2006 11:46 PM EDT reply actions

ditto

i have not seen or heard much positive about July Taverez this year...

by punchinjudy on Jun 14, 2006 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions

After he hit a Twin

of course!

by sdrone on Jun 14, 2006 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions

minor stuff

Mike Parisi in AA had a Carp type night, 7 innings, 10 k's, 3 walks, 2 hits.

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jun 14, 2006 12:46 AM EDT reply actions

and Rasmus

has homered in his third straight game

Reverend Redbird

by erik on Jun 14, 2006 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Yessir...

Is it great to see Carp back in Cy form or what? I have to agree with lifting him at 111, though. A complete game woulda been nice, but why risk him when he's just getting into badass shape. Damn that was fun to watch.

by rockin redbird on Jun 14, 2006 1:14 AM EDT reply actions